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  1. #1

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    check out Tony's reply to his warranty issues!

    Tony Ellsworth
    mtbr member


    Join Date: Jan 2004
    Posts: 13 Just in case you missed the Ellsworth Warranty discussions

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The long and short about the Ellsworth Warranty

    The Short—
    THE WARRANTY.
    Resolving accusations our warranty not being honored is about making the facts available to everyone. The warranty, is available on our website: (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/...%20WarrCard.pdf) Anyone interested in the facts can read it for themselves, instead of reading only hearsay and rumors. The execution of the warranty has been directly in line with what is written.

    THE ADVERTISING.
    As to the allegations of false advertising claims that the warranty is something other then has been practiced, etc.? I’ve added an “ad archive” of every ad we’ve placed in North American media, since ‘99/’00 (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/ellsworthianway/index.cfm) You can check it out for your self rather then take everything you read in a MTBR discussion board for fact without checking it out on your own.

    The Long—the rest of the story:
    CUSTOMER SERVICE.

    First, I appreciate customers taking time to relate their positive experiences in the discussion board. Sony did a study in the 80’s every customer service manager knows like scripture. It goes something like this:

    For every satisfied customer, 1 out of 10 will tell of their satisfaction 1 time. On the other hand, 10 out of 10 dissatisfied customers will tell no less then 10 people of their dissatisfaction…10 times!

    As for allegations or accusations of bad customer service. I have three things to say:

    First, no one is perfect, though we’re constantly striving at Ellsworth, no one there has given up taking care of our customers and dealers.

    Second, If there are 10 dissatisfied customers on MTBR (count the negative posts usernames, it’s not that diverse) they are telling 10 times the same dissatisfaction. Your hearing it 10 times amplified. On the other hand, the 10 satisfied Ellsworth owners represent hundreds of satisfied customers.

    Third, You need to know that there’s more to the story that you’re not going to hear from the dissatisfied guy claiming he was treated poorly. Here’s a couple special ones—ask yourself which parts of the story you actually read about on the discussion boards:

    Example #1. What you read in posts: Kid with Joker, warranted seven times. What you don’t hear: Come to find out his friends were taking turns dropping it off the garage roof to the driveway busting it—why not their own bikes? Because “Ellsworth has a lifetime warranty” was the answer. “Our bikes don’t.”

    Example #2. What you don’t hear: Guy drops bike on rock while lifting it over fence when it’s pretty new. Dents downtube—sends us a picture, we say, we’d watch it, but wouldn’t recommend buying a replacement right away, though it undoubtedly is a stress riser, he may ride it for years without any problems, and he could always buy a replacement at some time in the future if it became necessary. He actually posts on MTBR that he rides the heck out of it, and even despite the big dent he put in it, it’s holding up great for multiple seasons. Original dent eventually does generates stress cracks. He wants it warranted for free. He’s mad because he has to pay for replacement parts—What you read on discussion board is a rant on MTBR—flaming company for weak bikes and bad customer service.

    Example #3. Guy buys bike used, sight unseen, (MTBR, Ebay…buyer beware) bike breaks. He’s second owner—no applicable warranty. Shock that it came with isn’t a Truth part number, too short, worn out. He is offered to buy replacement parts and shock at a deep discount. He’s mad because he didn’t get shock (wear component) and frame (not original owner) for free. Flames us for not honoring warranty on a used bike and a wear component.

    Example #4. Here’s a super reasonable case I just handled myself as it isn’t very common and I didn’t want any misunderstandings about what was to be done: Three year old front triangle failure. Not current version or technology of the Truth—no like parts in stock to warranty with. Despite the fact that our destructive testing and accumulated research shows a better then 90% correlation with under inflated shock, or hydraulic lock due to lockout left on, or worn out air shock, heavier riders and large frames. User set up is considered the owner/operator responsibility—as stated in warranty and owners manual and FAQ on website. In spite of this, we are willing to warranty the front triangle with a brand new one to the original owner no charge, once with an explanation letter about shock set up and use. However, shock lengths and rockers have changed (longer shock for lower shock shaft velocity and lower leverage ratio rockers to ease the demand on the shocks—specifically benefits heavier riders ride quality and increases durability). Owner is offered to replace his three year old and likely worn out shock for dealer cost, and purchase the new rocker assembly for a deep discount off what it would be at retail (necessary to accommodate the newer shock, if something like this had happened within the first year, we’d have provided the rocker at no charge). Cost to upgrade entire frame after three years of regular use to a brand new 2004 Truth…approximately $500. Or you could look at it as a $1,500 credit toward a brand new frame (“current technology” warrantee language).

    Let’s take this last example and look at it, because here in lies a few of the frustrations with the current warranty that I am aware of. I am aware of three of these situations where I was unable to come to a meeting of the mind with the owner. Never the less, I did what was disclosed clearly in the warranty. I don’t know how to remedy the hard feelings, as what was done above is exactly what the warranty states would be done.

    This is where that whole bad rap about customer service and not honoring warranty on MTBR came from in the first place I think. This doesn't happen like this very often. But when it does, most of the time, folks are ecstatic about $500 for a brand new frame. Occasionally, someone is indignant about the $500--didn't read the warranty, or maybe doesn't understand products must evolve and change to become better over the years, like software, cars, ovens, motorcycles, shoes, and yes...bikes. And they continue to rant and complain on MTBR so that you'd think the whole world has broken Ellsworth's...and Ellsworth blows them off when it happens. These rants are half-truth’s of a vocal few. As to the idea that I change products to avoid warranty that’s ridiculous.

    You can categorize the number of times product evolutions have happened and recognize these MTBR rants if you know what incompatibilities have happened in the last decade. The allegation that I change products so I don’t have to warranty, or can make money by selling current parts at a deep discount them is untrue. Only a very small percentage of the bikes we ship world wide ever have problems, why would I spend the 18 months of R&D and the cost of retooling JUST to skirt coughing up a few free frames to warranty in the course of the year? The concept propagated by several discussion board mavens is preposterously confused and lacks any mathematical, numeric, or financial reason whatsoever.

    Here is an actual list of the product changes that involve some degree of incompatibility, only one is complete incompatibility, and we offered upgrade programs to help. Check it out.

    1996 Truth’s changed from 80mm of travel to 100mm of travel. Front triangle and shock changed so that if you had a front triangle warranty on a bike before 1997, you had to buy a new shock at dealer cost to make the frame go again. For new shock at dealer cost, you got more travel, Easton tubes, lighter stiffer stronger frame, and brand new shock.

    2000 Truth’s changed completely for the first time in almost 8 years. We maintained warranty replacements until about 2002—then parts just ran out. At that time we offered a half price upgrade to the new Instant Center Tracking, cartridge-bearing Truth to any Ellsworth owner to keep them on current and warrantee-able parts. We took a lot of heat from dealers on that, who expressed their concerns that these folks upgrading should’ve been back to the dealer to buy the new bikes, as the old one’s were likely worn out and should be replaced at the dealer. We continued to offer the half price upgrade well through
    2002. And dropped it to about a 35% discount the next year. By then the bikes being upgraded were well over three years old and not current technology, though there are still many of these old Truth’s out there that are loved and work great, and I still maintain inventory of service parts (bushing pivot kits available on website).

    2004 Truth’s started shipping in mid 2003 utilizing the longer shocks and lower leverage ratio rockers. (better ride quality, especially for heavier riders, increased durability due to lower leverage ratio).

    2002 Id’s got a new disk specific seat stay. 2001 (first year) had canti stays. Both worked great, but the disk specific stay was in high demand. We offered the opportunity for owners to upgrade at about 40% discount. Again took heat from dealers, AND took heat from owners who asserted that it was better then the old stay (which worked fine) and therefore the old stay was defective and we should give them the new stay for free—that the upgrade charge was greedy! Most people were glad to have the opportunity to upgrade the bike to disks and more tire clearance for a couple of hundred bucks. This had no affect on how Id’s were or are warranted. What you read on MTBR is the old stay was defective (not true) and we were charging to replace defective stay. The fact was the upgrade was optional—not mandatory, and the canti-boss stay worked as designed and intended on the original bike. Upgrade offer was optional.

    2003 Joker gets major upgrade after four years of production. Longer Travel, stiffer, stronger, etc.. Original owner gets upgraded on any part that fails, but would have to potentially buy a shock for it to get the full benefit of the new design.

    That’s it. I think in each case the upgrade path is more then valuable for the associated cost, IF ANY that might be applicable. The above is the ENTIRE story of how warranty is handled if parts have evolved. No more complicated then that. Again, if you read something that deviates much from the above—ask yourself what part of the story your not reading on the discussion board.

    In the last four years, we have made more alterations, or improvements to the Truth then we did in the first 6 years of production. Mostly because we sell more, and the companies resources for R&D have made it possible to break new ground with the suspension technology, which is why when you get your new '04 Ellsworth, your just going to LAUGH at the mass media frenzy stuff…concerning the “newest” suspension system. And ask yourself “what’s the possibility the “latest, greatest, newest” design will still be here in it’s current form in 5-10 years like the Instant Center Tracking four bar link has been.”

    Is there a problem understanding the warranty? I’m not sure. I’ll ramble on a bit more about it, and please take a look at the warranty on our websites FAQ section, or at the direct links above and below and email me what you think at [email protected] .

    I do think the current warranty is more complex to administrate then other warrantees, I think this stems mostly from my desire to stand behind the craftsmanship of the frame for the lifetime of the frame. Unfortunately, this gets complicated—I admit. Here's why the current warranty is potentially complicated, and may well be flawed if it’s so commonly misunderstood:

    First, let's say a guy is using the frame pretty hard. Which is OK, but his use is going to fatigue the material faster then another's use that might be more on the XC end of things. “A Truth is NOT a free ride frame.” You can see by definition alone, prescribed, or designed use is very difficult to define--what is XC? What is Freeride?...etc. No human can define it the same twice and agree with another human. Thus, I've determined that in this respect, my "lifetime" warranty is flawed and probably impossible to administrate without pissing people off at some point.

    Second, it is impractical if not impossible to spend time and oh so little precious financial resources to manufacture and inventory parts for every Truth I've made in the last 10 years. If I never changed or improved on them, no one would want them. If I change or improve it, sometimes there is incompatibility. In MY mind (again, not everyone would agree, though many have) the opportunity to ride the heck out of a truth for three years and get a BRAND new one for a deep discount is a GREAT deal. Again, think of another industry... Drive the heck out of an off road truck, and get a new one for half price! What a deal! But again, not everyone agrees with me. However, many owners have taken advantage of this to keep fresh equipment--that causes troubles with Dealers who want to sell new stuff at full price when a person has worn out the old frame (lifetime doesn’t mean it can’t be worn out). And you can WEAR OUT a Truth...although almost everything on it can be maintained, if there are parts available. It is the lifetime of the frame...and though the warranty specifically states that if the replacement part isn't available (or that frames lifetime is over) a "credit towards current product will be issued", folks get mad that we did EXACTLY what the warranty says we would do...!? In this respect also, the perception of my warranty causes problems and misunderstandings.

    Change the warranty? Help us decide. The warranty is for you—I want to give the owners and prospective owners what they want.

    If the warranty changed to a strait two years, then if we exceed expectations, folks will be happy. As it is now, due primarily to the two issues above, we risk falling short of someone's expectations on what is a generous and liberal warranty in this industry (read the collection of industry warranties in FAQ section of www.ellsworthbikes.com see links). Pretty much ALL or ANY manufacturing defect, or material defect shows up within the first year. After that, it's probably fatigue, or misuse, or something. And for the few rare times it's clearly a defect of some kind--even if it's outside 2 years--won't the guy be happy that we stepped up and honored it anyway out of warranty?!

    I know in my heart, and have verified with destructive testing and by FEAing others designs up and applying the same dynamic loading to my designs and theirs that Ellsworth bikes are more durable for the prescribed use then any in the industry by as much as double. AND they are all lighter then the same prescribed use bikes of other brands...that’s something we’re proud of and it is proof of some sweet and expensive engineering, design and materials. But nothing lasts forever, and while I'm perfectly willing to do a lifetime of the product warranty—will owners read warranty so they don’t just end up pissed off when the situation arrives that they've gotta buy replacement parts to keep it good? Please help us decide: [email protected]

    Just like my wonderful Dodge Diesel Truck. 90,000 miles of wonderful service, and I need new shocks for the second time, new springs, a bed liner...a door seal, a dome light switch--stuff needs maintenance. It's a scientific fact called atrophy, right? Bike frames are not exempt from this. Any way, when a man thinks about it like this, it's all good. But too often, as this discussion board seems to attest to folks have had false expectations concerning the warranty. And it does makes me sad, because I care, and my staff cares, and we do our level best to take care of our customers.

    Currently, the discussion boards are not an efficient way to collect honest and insightful opinions. It would be great if they could be, but that’s not what I’m seeing in the discussion boards at this time. So you’ll need to collect your thoughts and email them to [email protected].

    *Download the ads—see there’s no misrepresentation (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/ellsworthianway/index.cfm);
    *Download the current warranty, let me know if any of it is unclear or if you think the way we’re handing or have handled warrantees is not inline with what we said we’d do (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/...%20WarrCard.pdf);
    *Check out this collection of sample industry warrantees http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/...0Warranties.pdf ) how do these compare to the Ellsworth Warranty?
    *Finally, take a look at my potentially “more easily interpreted warranty” (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/...%20WarrCard.pdf). Is this a better, clearer warranty?

    Email me your thoughts: [email protected]

    I value your input, as Ellsworth owners, as potential owners, or even if your not interested in an Ellsworth just as a fellow cyclist. I’m listening to your input and opinions to make owning a bike with my name on it a splendid experience. Even if you’re ranting on the discussion boards, and profess to know me well enough to hate me, I invite you to harness that energy and email me insightful and honest opinions about the material I’ve made available for everyone’s review. Include your contact information; the most useful suggestions or comments may receive a token of my appreciation for participating in providing valuable focus on the potential improvements or upgrades to the Ellsworth Warranty.

    In the end, it's about making people happy, healthy, and able to enjoy the planet in an environmentally healthy way. I'm a firm believer that a man reaps what he sews, and when I'm done on this planet, I will be pleased in the knowledge that I've sewn seeds of making many people healthy and happy, and not obliterated the planet in the process.

    I really appreciate your expressing your views, and your willingness to consider what I've put in print here. I remain available to any suggestions you might have to make the experience better. Thanks in advance for your time and consideration in this matter.

    Sincerely,
    Tony Ellsworth

    Did everyone get that? I know I missed it.

  2. #2
    Rolling
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    "look, look, look daddy.....go see the car accident on tv!"

    I think most of us saw that thread as it keeps being pushed to the top when ppl respond. If we didn't, it's because we don't care!

    Remember, when a thread goes near the top and it's bold, something new has been added.

  3. #3
    Cleavage Of The Tetons
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    Methinks though doth protest too much!

    That's all, folks!

  4. #4
    Doesntplaywellwithmorons!
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    Wtf?!?

    <i>2000 Truth’s changed completely for the first time in almost 8 years.</>

    What a freaking liar. Ellsworth didn't exist in 1992, and the first 4-bar model wasn't called a truth, and didn't appear until 1995. Where does he get "almost 8 years" for something less than 5 years old ?!

  5. #5
    Jm.
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    2002 Id’s got a new disk specific seat stay. 2001 (first year) had canti stays. Both worked great, but the disk specific stay was in high demand. We offered the opportunity for owners to upgrade at about 40% discount. Again took heat from dealers, AND took heat from owners who asserted that it was better then the old stay (which worked fine) and therefore the old stay was defective and we should give them the new stay for free—that the upgrade charge was greedy! Most people were glad to have the opportunity to upgrade the bike to disks and more tire clearance for a couple of hundred bucks. This had no affect on how Id’s were or are warranted. What you read on MTBR is the old stay was defective (not true) and we were charging to replace defective stay. The fact was the upgrade was optional—not mandatory, and the canti-boss stay worked as designed and intended on the original bike. Upgrade offer was optional.
    So if it wasn't defective, why did the mtbr one break????? How many other people were "non-mandatorily" forced to upgrade when their chainstay broke? I know at least another one was, because it was in mtbr shortly after you claimed mtbr's was the only one ever to break.

    Is it so hard for someone to admit they were wrong?? You would have gained a huge amount of respect, and shut the majority of people up. Now even if you do ever "come clean" no one is going to take you seriously....

  6. #6
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    <i>2000 Truth’s changed completely for the first time in almost 8 years.</>

    What a freaking liar. Ellsworth didn't exist in 1992, and the first 4-bar model wasn't called a truth, and didn't appear until 1995. Where does he get "almost 8 years" for something less than 5 years old ?!
    "Pathalogical" is the word I believe you are looking for D8.

  7. #7
    Trail rider and racer
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    "look, look, look daddy.....go see the car accident on tv!"

    I think most of us saw that thread as it keeps being pushed to the top when ppl respond. If we didn't, it's because we don't care!

    Remember, when a thread goes near the top and it's bold, something new has been added.
    If we didn't, it's because we don't care!

    Amen to that Rich!

  8. #8

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    Newbie Mtbr.

    After seeing all of this negative publicity of Ellsworth & especially Tony's charachter through the boards, and what he has posted, there seems little reason to ever buy from a company that is questionable at all. Why would anyone touch it with a ten foot stick? Ride Santa Cruz or something else!

  9. #9
    sock puppet
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    ask steve3 why not to buy Tomac either...

    Quote Originally Posted by J-mizzle
    After seeing all of this negative publicity of Ellsworth & especially Tony's charachter through the boards, and what he has posted, there seems little reason to ever buy from a company that is questionable at all. Why would anyone touch it with a ten foot stick? Ride Santa Cruz or something else!
    unfortunately steve3 didnt start a thread on that topic. i dont know why...
    Last edited by osokolo; 02-14-2004 at 11:50 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor!
    If we didn't, it's because we don't care!

    Amen to that Rich!

    trevor, you should be less biased on your coments. nobody here is trashing ellsworth bikes, its about the costumer service or the lack of it. why support a company that dont give a **** about their costumers?

    you will care when you need. ( but i wish you never need to deal with him).
    hey
    ho
    lets go!

  11. #11
    Rolling
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    I can't hold back anymore and now I need to add some pennies to the pot.

    I stand here as an Ellsworth owner with some really mixed feelings. I bought a Truth (okay my wife bought me one) two months before the Id came out. I loved that bike but started worrying soon after noticing the bad customer service issues. Also, when I saw the Id, I kept thinking I wish i had one. I even joked that "When mine breaks, I'll upgrade to an Id" Well, my dream, unfortunately, came true--I cracked my Truth--twice.

    And to add the details which related to Tony's letter above. My truth had two problems which relate to design flaws. One: the chainstay cracked near the BB pivot. The reason, the gap between the BB shell and the chainstay was just the right size that when you drop a chain, it wedges in between and stresses the chainstay. The new stay was relieved to allow the chain to fall in without stressing it.

    Then my front triangle cracked right at the point where the main rocker pivot gusset meets the seat tube. The design flaw was a basic mechanical error in creating a stress riser by having a sharp transistion. Lots of 2001 frames failed here that I have seen on the web. Ellsworth's new design relieved that both on the Truth and Id.

    All this said, I still had great customer service (<--bold for you Tony) and I went from a Truth to an Id in the process. I stand now with my Id wondering if I have to wear a paperbag when I ride since Ellsworth is do badly viewed now; and Tony's not helping with his defensive verbage pasted on at least 4 separate spots on this forum.

    Tony, if your point is that the negativity is amplified by costumers who had bad experiences complain louder than satisfied ones, the logic still holds for Santa Cruz customers and I know they sell a lot more bikes than you do. So if the law of numbers works, we should be hearing lots more negative remarks from that group. Why is it we are not? None of them post on MTBR? I'd say that SC fans are a big group here on mtbr. There has been some huge issues with the Blur bearings from one poster and yet SC is not getting the rap you are.

    But SC and Titus for example are not without fault. My wife tried to buy a Santa Cruz Juliana frame and waited 3 months for a frame that was suppose to take 8-10 weeks. And that 3 months was when she called them to find out it would be at least another month. She called Titus and they had their womens-small locomoto line in stock in every color. She bought a Titus and is delighted.

    Now you think Titus it nice and sweet? I know someone personally (mtbr poster) who had to wait till the middle of december to get their Titus that was supposed to be delivered near the end of September. They called umteen times trying to push on them to get delivery. They finally got one in a different color since they gave up waiting for their desired color. But they are happy with their bike.

    As far as breakage, I know ppl who broke Ventana, Santa Cruz, Titus, Specialized, Rocky Mountain.

    I think the problem here with Ellsworth stems a lot in the way he tried to market them. He touted them as "the Best" with lifetime warranty.. The good is that maybe it sells bikes, the bad it that it puts him in the spotlight and when he slips! And boy he seems to have a bright one on him on MTBR.

    So do I wish my Id would break so I can get a Moment? Or do I wish my Id would break and not get warranteed so I can switch brands. Or do I wish my Id never breaks?!
    Last edited by lidarman; 02-14-2004 at 07:27 PM.

  12. #12

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    Well written statement from Tony

    Looks like a very well written explanation from Tony. Unfortunately you guys aren't a very reasonable audience. I reviewed the warranty and it is pretty clear. Not every small businessman is in a conspiracy to rip off the customer as many of you imply. I would be happy to ride a frame for three years then get a pro-rated updated model.

  13. #13
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    tell us about your broken Tomac

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    It's quite odd how osokolo attacks me on the Ellsworth board, as well as Pete and never really gets to the issues about Ellsworth.
    I challenged you to talk about your broken Tomac. You didnt say a word about it yet.it is sitting broken in the corner somewhere where you can not see it, because it hurts you more than all broken Ellsworths. why? because you burned your money buying Tomac, not Ellsworth.

    So i will challenge you again, start talking about your broken Tomac, and i will stop attacking yoiur posts.

    Note that i still didnt call you any names, unlike you did call me. but as i stated earlier, you can not insult me what ever you say this way. if you were saying that stuff in my face person in person, that would have been a different story. but i am sure you'd be pretty quiet in person. you are just a bully behind the computer screen that has balls to type ****, but when the time comes to back up your words person in person, you are quiet...

    but forget that, tell us how your Tomac broke and what Tomac did to fix it.

    why are you so miserable?

  14. #14
    sock puppet
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    absolutely. i have read the warranty myself

    Quote Originally Posted by jtlmd
    Looks like a very well written explanation from Tony. Unfortunately you guys aren't a very reasonable audience. I reviewed the warranty and it is pretty clear. Not every small businessman is in a conspiracy to rip off the customer as many of you imply. I would be happy to ride a frame for three years then get a pro-rated updated model.
    and i agree with you.

    if my bike breaks 3 years down the road, i'll take new frame at the prorated price.

    so this answers steve3's question... yes, i am happy with the warranty that will charge me 40-60% to have the new frame after 3 years if my frame breks within that period...

    any time!!!

  15. #15
    sock puppet
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    someone had to pay $500

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Brush up on your math. 40-60% doesn't equal the $500 you think you're going to pay.

    I wonder if you're getting the points with Tony for your free prize.
    for warranty upgrade, that included the shock.

    if i get NEW frame at 60% of it's cost in 3 years, i'll take it in a heart beat.

    i hope my math is still good...

  16. #16
    Rolling
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    for warranty upgrade, that included the shock.

    if i get NEW frame at 60% of it's cost in 3 years, i'll take it in a heart beat.

    i hope my math is still good...
    Wish you and steve would stick to fighting on this thread or the other one --but not both.

  17. #17
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    your Tomac story

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Yes, I'll talk about my Tomac. It's broken and that's it. I addressed already that I'm waiting for my father to come back from abroad so he can get me all of the documents of the sale.

    Ok, I talked about it, so now you're an immature playground bully? No, you didn't call me names, but you did tell Pete to take me out to dinner, so I addressed that in full and now you are trying to tell me that you're going to kick my ass? That I wouldn't say anything if I was right there? Heh, nor would you. You're on the other side of a computer calling people names. For your information, I don't fight and i haven't fought since grade school. I'm an adult and if I have a problem, lets say as civil debate, it's handled with words, not by degrading down to "you wouldn't talk like that if you were right here". Sounds like a person that hasn't got anything better to say anymore and is at the end of the rope.

    Personally, I'm entertained by your mindless posts that are refuted not only by me.

    You're obviously fuming and you don't have the luxury of meeting me and beating the crap out of me, so yes, I do have the balls to type and I am backing up my words here.

    I'm sure being a threatening figure and getting into fights is something one should be proud of.
    sounds quite disproportionate compared to your Ellsworth story. what is up with that? and you dont even own Ells.

    did you run out of your pocket money and have to wait until your daddy comes back from abroad to give you some so that you can go out and celebrate valentine's day?

    spending it in front of the computer with us doesnt sound like fun.

    i am out now. gotta take my lady out for dinner... but i will be back...

  18. #18
    sock puppet
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    hehehe, i agree... lets keep it on this thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    Wish you and steve would stick to fighting on this thread or the other one --but not both.
    you hear me steve3? stick to this thread you miserable SOB.

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    Interested

    Quote Originally Posted by jtlmd
    Looks like a very well written explanation from Tony. Unfortunately you guys aren't a very reasonable audience. I reviewed the warranty and it is pretty clear. Not every small businessman is in a conspiracy to rip off the customer as many of you imply. I would be happy to ride a frame for three years then get a pro-rated updated model.
    I'm not going to grade Mr. Ellsworth on his explanations. You are right. The Warranty is pretty clear. It also appears that he honors the Warranty.

    The issue, as I see it, doesn't appear to be about Ellsworth honoring his warranty. The issue is that when the average person reads "Lifetime Warranty", they usually don't read the fine print. The reason they don't read the fine print is because they trust their intuitions and make the assumption that the lifetime warranty is for life. The only reason that they would have to buy a whole new friame is if they damage the bike due to negligence.

    Maybe the views of these people are naive, but they're not. If Mr. Ellsworth wanted to be above board with the Warranty, he would be to give his bikes a 1 year warranty and offer low-cost crash replacements of upgrades.

    The result would be more satisfied customers, but I fear that some sales would be lost simply because people don't see that "Lifetime Warranty" hook.

  20. #20

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    Now you are out of line.

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    you hear me steve3? stick to this thread you miserable SOB.
    It is one thing to have a different opinion, but lay off of the name calling. There is no reason for that type of statement. We all have different information swimming in our heads, and different opinions, that is what makes a board like this so great. However, there is no reason for the way you are reacting, oskolo. Lay off. Let future bike buyers make their own opinions, with the info that is available. Stop trying to divert attention to a different bike. If you want steve3 to talk about his Tomac, I am sure he will be happy to over on the Tomac board. This particular thread is here to clear up Ellsworth's warranty as it is written. If you are happy with the way the warranty is, great. That is what it is all about. Relax, before you have a heart attack.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlos
    trevor, you should be less biased on your coments. nobody here is trashing ellsworth bikes, its about the costumer service or the lack of it. why support a company that dont give a **** about their costumers?

    you will care when you need. ( but i wish you never need to deal with him).
    Christ!

    Bias works both ways. You get people on MTBR who hear a bad comment about a product be an Ellsworth frame or an XTR disk brake and instantly hate the product or the founder or whatever. People do have a bad experiences and dislike the company for it. The former is irrational and the later is fair. Thus using that logic, my logic, it is fine for me to be biased and not really care as my experience has been a positive one.

    There is Truth in what Tony Ellsworth said in his rather large post. The research Sony carried out runs very true indeed.

    We always hear of the bad but rarely the good:
    Ugh, I have lost the link, but search passion and you'll find a thread of very positive warranty experiences with Ellsworth. Of course, no body paid much attention to that thread because it was positive, and thats no good because it seems MTBR has a lot of martyrs lingering around. I respect the opinion of those that have had negative experiences with Ellsworth. I would hardly think otherwise about them. But the rest who have probably never ridden an Ellsworth or seen one, have a nerve to go on and on about something like this IMHO.

    I couldn't give a **** if people disagree with me or not.
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    No fine print!

    I read the warranty. There really is no fine print. It is extremely easy to read and understand. No lifetime warranty is as all inclusive as you expect.

  23. #23

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    Good for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    I'd like to apologize to the board. I'm not particularly fond of chasing osokolo around to every other board while he pretends that I never addressed the things he makes fun of me for.

    As it goes, I'm working really hard to buy my next bike. Unfortunately, my Tomac broke, that's it. The issue of my Tomac doesn't take away from the debate on hand, nor does his threats of beating me up. I paid for almost all of my Tomac, and my father helped with the gap and put everything on his card. Nothing else. Osokolo seems to have something against anyone that has to work their ass of for something, as well as making threats when he can't back himself up anymore.

    Again, I apologize to the board and hope that this can turn into a civil and proper topic for debate. It's obviously very heated and it's going off into different directions that don't erase the core issues.
    Well said, steve. let's keep the topic focused on change.

  24. #24
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    Agree some...

    Quote Originally Posted by WarrGuru
    I'm not going to grade Mr. Ellsworth on his explanations. You are right. The Warranty is pretty clear. It also appears that he honors the Warranty.
    Agreed that was the most direct and explicit of his posts as of late. Still I am a bit confused by the Id chainstay part.

    Quote Originally Posted by WarrGuru
    The issue, as I see it, doesn't appear to be about Ellsworth honoring his warranty. The issue is that when the average person reads "Lifetime Warranty", they usually don't read the fine print. The reason they don't read the fine print is because they trust their intuitions and make the assumption that the lifetime warranty is for life. The only reason that they would have to buy a whole new friame is if they damage the bike due to negligence.
    I'm part-way with you on this...but having read some of the experiences here, and some related to me by the LBSs I shopped, I get the impression that he has treated some honest warranty claims very poorly. And charging some $500 for a chainstay is a little beyond the pale for me. That's besides the upgrade hardware, but that can be considered to be well explained in the warranty so that's okay with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by WarrGuru
    Maybe the views of these people are naive, but they're not. If Mr. Ellsworth wanted to be above board with the Warranty, he would be to give his bikes a 1 year warranty and offer low-cost crash replacements of upgrades.
    That's part of the issue as I see it. I didn't see some of the upgrades as low cost at all.

    For me, and let me be the first to say I have no stake in this beyond wishing everyone involved gets a fair deal, I believe his warranty is clearly worded. Anyone buying such an expensive bike should do the 10 minuets of homework to READ it and then call the company for consice plain-english explanation of how it is applied. Anyone who was disappointed because they thought it meant something else, walked into that pit.

    I really don't think the problem lies in the warranty terms. It seems to me that quite a few people got very different treatment than others. It almost seems like EW-CS has some kind of Warranty Quota where they'll give great service to a predetermined number of customers and once they hit a magic number, over a certain period of time, (or bottom out their replacement inventory) they simply take the hardline for everyone else until the refresh begins. Perhaps there is some calculated business model that specifies how many gimmies vs. forgetaboutits is workable for a optimised CS cost control.

    Okay so all of that is pure wild conjecture... It's 28-degs out, lots of snow and ice everywhere, so I can't ride.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  25. #25
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    for example: bontrager warranty.

    i would like to compare ellsworth warr to bontrager.. does anyone know, have experience with warrantying a bontrager? i remeber the old, charming , small ads with: "guaranteed for life... really." so, a bontrager is a hardtail and doesn't evolve technologically as a full suspension? i don't care. it says guaranteed for life and i read it: if it breaks, i get a new one. i don't care if the manufacturer keeps stock or not. i want a new one cause the ad promised that. it's simple.
    in my humble personal gut feeling opinion, a bike that keeps having it's geometry redesigned means the designer is shooting everywhere and doesn't know exactly what he wants... a santa cruz superlight is the same basic geometry, for how long? i don't even want to mention hardtail classics with strong persoanlities like yo eddy (which seemed to have warrranty issues too but...), ibis mojo, salsa a la carte. a salsa a la carte is teh same bike for how long? it means the designer had a vision, an idea of a bike. it's not a marketing product.. am i totally out of it? maybe... maybe not.

  26. #26
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    ... and if we just ...

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    I would like to add that there is an issue of alot of frames coming from dealers that have to order them, as well as mail order places. The LBS that has to order the bike will not have a warranty card to verse the consumer on. Loophole #1. Next, the mail order places won't, either. Loophole#2.. After that, there's always the consumer's word of mouth that the bike has a lifetime warranty, as well as the site saying how the bike will last a lifetime and the warranty is industry leading.
    Eh, No biggie IMO...the consumer should do the homework. Call the company. Talk to a rep and ask specifics. A lot of mfgrs don't have their warranty policies spelled out on their website and in their litature. What one REALLY needs to know is how they handle direct questions about service. A simple phone call can answer that.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    I would just like to hear it the way it is. It's a warranty for a year, then crash protection discount only. By comparison, someone posted up the Ventana warranty and it's night and day, i thought. Clear, concise and plainly worded. I hope someone has a copy to post up.
    Ventana's waranty was transposed in another EW thread. I think Sherwood was right...We should leave him out of this discussion. He's the high mark for the whole industry and lives up to it every day.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    When Tony posted up the other manufacturer's warranties, he basically showed clear cut warranties where you know exactly what you're getting. I don't see how his warranty is better than Giant, Specialized, and Trek.
    Basic sales technique...changing the subject to deflect the heat. We really don't need to go to EW to get other companies warranty information.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Aren't Daggers and Marins made in the same factories? What are their reliability issues? They're essentially the same bikes as Ellsworth's single pivot bikes, but with different pivot locations.
    I have absolutely no idea what these bikes have in common besides the factory. There is LOTS of room for differences from tubing thickness, to gussett size and locations, to stress risers and shock linkage leverage... I think reliability in these cases has more to do with how the frames were designed and spec'd. They may be welded by the very same set of hands but if the tubeset is different, or what is welded to them, then they're different bikes.

    All this is of course, JMO.... and speaking of opinions, you and osokolo really should get a room, happy valentines day fellas
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 02-14-2004 at 09:03 PM.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  27. #27
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    naah, what beating are you talking about?

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Hope you don't beat her like you want to beat me. Take anger management classes.
    Yes, I'm waiting to get a new bike because I'm working my ass off going to school and working at the same time. You obviously have enough money to throw around and look down on the working man.

    Again, you first show how proud you are about how you intimidate people "person in person" (improperly stated by yourself) and then you make fun of people that don't have alot of money to throw around, like most people out there. Too bad, osokolo. you don't like thinking non fighters and now you don't like anyone that has to work their balls off to get a bike.

    As far as the girlfriend and spending valentine's day, she's sitting here with me and she's studying for exams this week. We're worried about getting educations and good jobs. No shame in that, right, or is that another thing people should be ashamed of?

    Sounds like you're getting really mad, Osokolo.
    if you think that "victim" profile will help you prove your point, then rather claim mental disorder or something like that. it is much more believable in your case.

    i immigrated to Canada 12 years ago with $3000 canadian in my pocket. i didnt have parents here to provide free shelter, food and money for my school. i earned it myself. so dont give my that "look down on the working man" sh** dude. been there done that. my parents didnt have money to give me to buy Tomac. even if they did, i wouldnt have bought it, it would have been Ellsworth or nothing... ;-P

    with regards to fighting, stop being ridiculous. no one threatened you. you really think i care about you so much that i would be mad at you? not at all... dont give yourself so much credit. you dont deserve it...

    but back to Ellsworth warranty issue.

    i will repeat time and again. the print is clear. it is limited lifetime warranty. to me it is totally acceptable and fair that the consumer pays the price of new technology. i want to know that the manufacturer is working hard on improving the technology on my bike all the time. 2004 Truth comes with shorter rocker arm that puts less stress on the frame. i like that. i like the fact that Ellsworth is learning from the experience. some people say that we, the consumers, pay the price for their r&d... really? why is that different than the auto industry? how many thousands of cars are recalled every year? how many first production year cars are piece of sh** because of many design flaws that would be fixed in the second production year?

    so give me a break when you are talking about Ellsworth r&d... as it is we dont have enough choices when it comes to high end FS frames... it is tough market and every manufacturer has it's own issues.

    if you dont think Ellsworth bike is for you, that is fine. but dont tell me i bought piece of sh** because my piece of sh** is still rideable unlike your piece of sh** that is broken.

    i spent weeks researching the market and picking the best bike that will give me more fun than my Norco Team Ti. weeks and weeks of internet searching, people talking, phone calls etc.

    Ellsworth came on the top.

    your girlfriend and you are doing the right thing regarding your education.. now prove yourself and then the others that you can sound reasonable from time to time on this board too...

    check the pic son. that one is for you. and please dont lose your sleep over it. one day you will fix your Tomac... i promise... really...
    Attached Images Attached Images

  28. #28
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    you started the thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    It is one thing to have a different opinion, but lay off of the name calling. There is no reason for that type of statement. We all have different information swimming in our heads, and different opinions, that is what makes a board like this so great. However, there is no reason for the way you are reacting, oskolo. Lay off. Let future bike buyers make their own opinions, with the info that is available. Stop trying to divert attention to a different bike. If you want steve3 to talk about his Tomac, I am sure he will be happy to over on the Tomac board. This particular thread is here to clear up Ellsworth's warranty as it is written. If you are happy with the way the warranty is, great. That is what it is all about. Relax, before you have a heart attack.
    and now you are telling me i am out of line... buzz of dude. are you my daddy? didnt think so.

    previous post was a joke. dont you see it's title... it started with "hehehe". some people including me are having a bit of fun through this thread. i think you should lighten up and try to prevent your heart attack... i am pretty relaxed...

    when you lay off your Ellsworth bashing crap, i will lay off my comments on the topic. is that fair?

    and by all means take Tomac discussion to Tomac board.i couldnt be happier for you and steve3 in that case...

  29. #29
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    <sniff>

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    I'd like to apologize to the board. I'm not particularly fond of chasing osokolo around to every other board while he pretends that I never addressed the things he makes fun of me for.

    As it goes, I'm working really hard to buy my next bike. Unfortunately, my Tomac broke, that's it. The issue of my Tomac doesn't take away from the debate on hand, nor does his threats of beating me up. I paid for almost all of my Tomac, and my father helped with the gap and put everything on his card. Nothing else. Osokolo seems to have something against anyone that has to work their ass of for something, as well as making threats when he can't back himself up anymore.

    Again, I apologize to the board and hope that this can turn into a civil and proper topic for debate. It's obviously very heated and it's going off into different directions that don't erase the core issues.
    you are making me feel very emotional now....

    i didnt have the luxury of having my daddy help me with the gap when i was going through my life. i started from zero, all by myself, and earned every buck with my own hands. so please lay off that crap about who i do or dont like or about some imaginary threats.

    you dont have anything to contributy to the topic anymore. acknowledge it and lets turn another page.

    you have spoken, negative experiences were laid down, positive experiences were laid down, mr. manufacturer has spoken and now let us all relax and see what happens from now.

    i do believe that this board did something good with this discussion and that is in the fact that the manufacturer reconsidered their warranty and posted it on the website. as far as i am concerned, that is great achievement of this forum and i also applaud mr. ellsworth for reacting to this forum.

    quite honestly it made me feel better as an Ellsworth owner. you may say what you want, but mr. ellsworth did show his concern for his customers... and i do respect that...

    'nuff said...

  30. #30
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    well said bikezilla, except the part

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Eh, No biggie IMO...the consumer should do the homework. Call the company. Talk to a rep and ask specifics. A lot of mfgrs don't have their warranty policies spelled out on their website and in their litature. What one REALLY needs to know is how they handle direct questions about service. A simple phone call can answer that.

    Ventana's waranty was transposed in another EW thread. I think Sherwood was right...We should leave him out of this discussion. He's the high mark for the whole industry and lives up to it every day.

    Basic sales technique...changing the subject to deflect the heat. We really don't need to go to EW to get other companies warranty information.

    I have absolutely no idea what these bikes have in common besides the factory. There is LOTS of room for differences from tubing thickness, to gussett size and locations, to stress risers and shock linkage leverage... I think reliability in these cases has more to do with how the frames were designed and spec'd. They may be welded by the very same set of hands but if the tubeset is different, or what is welded to them, then they're different bikes.

    All this is of course, JMO.... and speaking of opinions, you and osokolo really should get a room, happy valentines day fellas
    about the room...

    he's got a girlfriend and i hate breaking up other people relationships...

    besides, i dont like blondes, if you know what i mean... :-P

    nonetheless, i agree with most of what you said. if someone is spending $2000 on a frame and doesnt find out from the manufacturer directly about the warranty, that is foolish. no one else to blame but themselves. that does not remove responsibility on the part of the manufacturer, but it is not the sole responsibility...

    just my opinion of course.

  31. #31
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    so your next bike will be

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    I agree, Sherwood has a great reputation that precedes him and he should be left out, as he requested.

    Thanks for the Valentine's day wish. I wonder if he's gonna be as humored when he reads it as me
    VENTANA ???

    hmmm, but who is going to buy your Tomac?

    i am glad you got a chuckle out of bikezilla's post. for a momant you sounded like a human being ...

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by colker1
    i would like to compare ellsworth warr to bontrager.. does anyone know, have experience with warrantying a bontrager? i remeber the old, charming , small ads with: "guaranteed for life... really." so, a bontrager is a hardtail and doesn't evolve technologically as a full suspension? i don't care. it says guaranteed for life and i read it: if it breaks, i get a new one. i don't care if the manufacturer keeps stock or not. i want a new one cause the ad promised that. it's simple.
    in my humble personal gut feeling opinion, a bike that keeps having it's geometry redesigned means the designer is shooting everywhere and doesn't know exactly what he wants... a santa cruz superlight is the same basic geometry, for how long? i don't even want to mention hardtail classics with strong persoanlities like yo eddy (which seemed to have warrranty issues too but...), ibis mojo, salsa a la carte. a salsa a la carte is teh same bike for how long? it means the designer had a vision, an idea of a bike. it's not a marketing product.. am i totally out of it? maybe... maybe not.
    Light FS bikes are hard to design. actually, i dont think that words "light" and "FS" should be used in the same sentence.

    i do give manufacturers of all "light FS" bikes a lot of credit. they are up for the tough task. i guess that is why i would cut them a bit of a slack. i'd be ready to willingly bear percentage of the cost for R&D when having to pay for new technology warranted problems. i dont have any problems with that.

    frankly, i think it should be included in the warranty. AFAIC, it will guarantee that the manufacturer is working all the time on improving the technology...

  33. #33
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    Upset hear me roar

    Keep talking Steve3. Your reputation has gone from pest to none. I think it's about time for you to ditch your profile and wipe your ass so you don't reek so much. Get off your high horse and into a real saddle. Considering you spend all your life on these message boards trying to discredit something you've never owned. Make life more worthwhile, start riding your bike.

    This post is from a group of riders who live to ride and don't worry about discrediting anyone. Bikes break get over it. Maybe it time for you to upgrade anyway. Any real rider knows that bikes need to be upgraded on a regular basis even if that means getting a whole new set up.

    See you on the Trail,
    Wyrm and Friends

  34. #34
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    ahhh, you can do better...

    Quote Originally Posted by wyrm
    Keep talking Steve3. Your reputation has gone from pest to none. I think it's about time for you to ditch your profile and wipe your ass so you don't reek so much. Get off your high horse and into a real saddle. Considering you spend all your life on these message boards trying to discredit something you've never owned. Make life more worthwhile, start riding your bike.

    This post is from a group of riders who live to ride and don't worry about discrediting anyone. Bikes break get over it. Maybe it time for you to upgrade anyway. Any real rider knows that bikes need to be upgraded on a regular basis even if that means getting a whole new set up.

    See you on the Trail,
    Wyrm and Friends
    c'mon steve3. do what you do the best. quickly check IP addresses (i am sure you already did it but it didnt yield the right result), search the archive, make something up for god's sake, call Wyrm's father rotten, tell him he is mad or something...

    naah, Wyrm is just another member of this forum that has had enough of you. what is wrong with that?

    and Wyrm gave you the right advice. change your handle and start clean... you cant disinfect and clean your current handle with anything that you do, anymore...

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Well, you could've kept quiet and contributed more to this thread, but you didn't except for more spam. Everything you've said for the last day has amounted to nothing but spam against myself, regardless of Tony coming in and speaking on his own behalf. All you've done is attack me while I've spoken about the issue of Ellsworth.

    Then, you attack me for starting these threads, now you say up above that this forum did something good because Ellsworth reconsidered his warranty? Which one is it? I thought you were satisfied by his warranty as it was. Now you can't figure out whether your mad at me for posting up the intial question, or if you're happy that this thread created change?
    ah you dont get any credit for anything. the only credit you get is that you showed other people that this campaign is based on personal issues and got amplified by your irresponsible ranting.

    Kudos go to the manufacturer who actually gave something worthwile to the biking community to have fun with, for coming out to defend himself from bashers like you. manufacturer didnt have to do it, did he... he is not losing customers because of your posts, please dont give yourself that much credit... please


    It's obvious your posting is out of an extrordinary amount of pent up anger and the fact still remains, you issued threats while not having the luxury of speaking to me in person so you can beat me up, Mr Playground Bully. You don't like the working man, you have plenty of money to buy another bike WHEN you break your Truth, so that's of no consequence. You're not a smart consumer that knows when a manufacturer is marketing towards the uneducated consumer.
    and this comes from a smart consumer who bought his Tomac frame just to break on him shortly. my bike is awaiting to go on the trails with me in it's saddle, your bike is broken. so what did you say about being a smart consumer? come again please...


    Personally, I'm having fun with your anger management issues, but I continue to bring up Ellsworth in nearly every post. You only bring me up. In the rules of a debate, you'd have been disqualified now because you're only talking about me. Yes, I'm sure every buck is yours, but also, no respect is lost because someone helped me buy my bike with a couple hundred dollars. You don't get this. You can say daddy all you want, it only points to how poorly you feel about yours and your upbringing and how yours didn't help you. If you want to lay off personal attacks, then you stop first. Instead, you continue to make posts about me, as well as others, then you run away and then you complain that we're resurrecting old threads.
    you are making no sense again. i love my father and i am trying to make the rest of his and my mother lives as comfortable as possible as they worked hard to feed our family. i am sure your father is doing the same. i think you need your father by your side as soon as possible as he may help you overcome your crisis.

    i talked about my experience with Ellsworth that is real and substantiated unlike yours. actually you dont have experience with Ellsworth, hence not that you wouldnt be disqualified in this debate but you wouldnt be allowed to enter this debate since you DONT have experience with Ellsworth. enough of that...


    If you want to stick to the issues, how bout being constructiive for once? Lets turn it around and say this is big talk from you. I wonder if you do this in your daily life when you get drunk at bars and start fights with people for no reason. And I never told you you ride a piece of ****. You started that whole thing because you're sensitive about your bike. You obviously put alot into it and that should be commended, but that should not preclude you from joining in on the issues that will affect you. If you don't like reading about them, don't click on the threads.{/QUOTE]

    i dont drink son. never did. nor have smoked. i have been in sports all my life and competed all over the world. finished my career in 1998 in Nagano, Japan if you know what event that was. so drinking punch didnt work, you will have to come up with something else... i am sure you will.

    i like reading your posts and it is so easy to discredit them because you have no real world experience with Ellsworth. your experience is based on other people's experiences. that is what lawyers call hear-say and is not admitted in the court of law. but it is enough ground for your bashful discussion... go figure...

    Lets get back to the issue of Ellsworth. He posted here yesterday and you're continually bringing me up and you're the one adding nothing. Deviating onto me is not removing this thread from the top, osokolo.[/QUOTE]

    actually i want to keep it on the top. that will give more people a chance to read what nothing of YOUR experience you have to say about Ellsworth... and more and more people are stating on this board that they dont have any problems with Ellsworth warranty. Thanks for helping me out prove that...


    [/QUOTE]BTW-your seat tube looks cracked and your 5th is leaking oil. What a great combination to put together.[/QUOTE]

    you just proved my point (again)

  36. #36
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    yes i did

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Osokolo, I could swear that you started the whole "daddy" thing yourself. Meanwhile, you admitted that your dad didn't have enough money and anyone who does the "daddy" thing when someone helps them is just pulling the jealous sour grapes crap. Keep entertaining, osokolo/wyrm. your keeping the EW threads at the top and there are new people joining everyday. Tony should be PMing you telling you to stop because people are constantly reading EW threads now because of you. He stands to have an even further tarnishing on his reputation because you are actually hurting him by trying to help him. You're not earning the free prize, osokolo.

    Obligatory EW content: Why did the bikes break? Was is the manufacturers fault or EW's design? Is the manufacturer responsible in anyway, or is the burden of the testing assumed solely by EW?
    but i was not disrespectful with your father as you were with mine calling him rotten.

    again, i respect your father for working hard to feed his family and more. but it is important for him to start spending more time with you and helping you with your issues.

    are you still saying that Wyrm is my other handle??? hahaha, that is so weak. didnt you check IP addresses already? i am sure more people will chip in sooner or later. i am also sure you will say they are actuall myself with my other nicknames... sigh...

    lets leave it to other members to judge for themselves as to who is winning this argument. but again, thanks for helping me proving my point.

    all bikes break. you should know it the best as you own non-Ellsworth bike that is broken and you dont even know yet how the warranty claim will be handled. so in the meantime you are soothing your irritation with Tomac by bashing the brand that you dont have any experience at all with.


    Is the manufacturer responsible in anyway, or is the burden of the testing assumed solely by EW?
    come again... your rant does not make sense (again)

  37. #37
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    multiple handles???

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Actually, in a debate, participants in the issue typically aren't there. If that was the case, then there wouldn't be anything such as a debate team in any undergrad or law school because you're to pick a topic to discuss and they're not something you're personally involved in.

    I'm enjoying your posts, as well as the multiple handles, and the endless defending of EW without substatiation other than "I love my EW". You're doing a discredit to EW and not earning your free prize.
    sweeet. now you are down to making this up. you quickly pointed out IP addresses last time you accused someone else for using multiple handles few days ago.

    funny how this time you dont list IP addresses and just charge: MULTIPLE HANDLES...

    as i stated previously, your posts are getting shorter and shorter... you cant even make up things so that they look half credible...

    you can always change your handle. i am sure no one will object that. just burry steve3 and start with something like: new_steve or new_beginning or something along these lines... you'll be much better appreciated...

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    sweeet. now you are down to making this up. you quickly pointed out IP addresses last time you accused someone else for using multiple handles few days ago.
    funny how this time you dont list IP addresses and just charge: MULTIPLE HANDLES...
    Actually, Steve didn't list the IP addresses with that whole manbIKE/26street scenario, he just suggested that looking at IP addresses might be revealing. I can't find a way (as a non-moderator) to check IPs in the new forum... I looked at the source code, and couldn't find IP addresses anywhere.

    I'm reluctant to pull this thread to the top at this point, but since you guys are doing it anyway...

    I'm not an Ellsworth owner and have no direct experience, but reading these threads has almost convinced me that Tony is pretty much fulfilling the letter of the warranty, although some people (esp. Pete) seem to have studied the warranty and still feel that he has not done so. Anyway, I'm not totally on steve's side on that issue, BUT...

    Reading this, osokolo has definitely been the one relying more on personal attacks, etc. Steve hasn't been perfect, but he did have the class to apologize to the board on one of these threads, and he's been trying to keep it on the issues, under duress from osokolo's constant jibes. And he's right, osokolo's personal attacks (which steve apparently feels obliged to answer) are keeping this thread up at the top.

    That's just the way I've read it, IMO, FWIW.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belfrey
    Actually, Steve didn't list the IP addresses with that whole manbIKE/26street scenario, he just suggested that looking at IP addresses might be revealing. I can't find a way (as a non-moderator) to check IPs in the new forum... I looked at the source code, and couldn't find IP addresses anywhere.
    but that didnt stop him from insinuating that people were using multiple handles. do you approve that?


    I'm not an Ellsworth owner and have no direct experience, but reading these threads has almost convinced me that Tony is pretty much fulfilling the letter of the warranty, although some people (esp. Pete) seem to have studied the warranty and still feel that he has not done so. Anyway, I'm not totally on steve's side on that issue, BUT...
    thank you


    Reading this, osokolo has definitely been the one relying more on personal attacks, etc. Steve hasn't been perfect, but he did have the class to apologize to the board on one of these threads, and he's been trying to keep it on the issues, under duress from osokolo's constant jibes. And he's right, osokolo's personal attacks (which steve apparently feels obliged to answer) are keeping this thread up at the top.

    That's just the way I've read it, IMO, FWIW.
    to each his/her own.

    i dont pull personall attacks first. i cant agree with you on that observation. but again, you are entitled to your own opinion and i respect that. just re-read what he said about my father. i didnt disrespect any member of his family.

    on another note, my position from the begining of this thread was similar to yours. the ellsworth warranty is pretty clear and IMHO fair. i stated this fact many times in my posts. i even backed it up with my real life experience with Ellsworth.

    and what did steve3 do except chewed second hand info time and again and posted it as his opinion. nothing wrong with people having opinions, but what about the credibility?

    that is all
    Last edited by osokolo; 02-15-2004 at 08:26 AM.

  40. #40
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    thans for finding most of my posts...

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    here's the cut and pastes of osokolo's posts:

    1 Week Ago #63
    osokolo
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    you are one sick puppy sir...

    may god help you...


    osokolo
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    i am pretty sure that most of 2500+ viewers

    are laughing at you by now... so your Tomac is broken and you are soothing your pain by letting all the world know that Ellsworth is even worse in your opinion?

    sigh...

    1 Week Ago #65
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    Bravo??? hehe, you guys must be stroking each other

    when there is no power to run your computers...


    Next, here’s where he brings me back into the foray a week later, unprovoked:

    osokolo
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    what chip Pete?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by PeteHow do you get through doorways with that enormous chip on your shoulder?I'm a "Turner fan" and a "troll" because I share the truth about Ellsworth?p.s. What makes me a "Turner fan" as opposed to an "Ibis fan" as opposed to a "Foes fan" etc., etc. etc. and what bearing does that have on the facts regarding Ellsworth?

    ”what are you trying to prove here? are you trying to tell me something i dont know? as i said previously, you have stated your case. jury was out and delivered it's verdict.

    you have bike you are happy with now, dont you? you told us your story and i personally appreciated it and am thankful for sharing. it didnt affect my decision when the time came to buy a bike...

    rest your case already. why repeat yourself?

    take steve3 out for a dinner and get your share of admiration from your fans. i dont need it here on this forum. and it seems that i am not the only one that feels this way...”
    “unfortunately steve3 didnt start a thread on that topic. i dont know why...”

    Now for the attacks:

    “to tell you that you are overboard... maybe you should wait for your daddy to come back from abroad and tell you what to do and what to not do...”

    “you hear me steve3? stick to this thread you miserable SOB.”

    Now for the “you wouldn’t say that if I was right there” saber rattling of his:

    ”Note that i still didnt call you any names, unlike you did call me. but as i stated earlier, you can not insult me what ever you say this way. if you were saying that stuff in my face person in person, that would have been a different story. but i am sure you'd be pretty quiet in person. you are just a bully behind the computer screen that has balls to type ****, but when the time comes to back up your words person in person, you are quiet...”

    “did you run out of your pocket money and have to wait until your daddy comes back from abroad to give you some so that you can go out and celebrate valentine's day?”


    then osokolo started fighting me on different threads, while pretending he didn't see my response on the other.

    Simply put, it's time to move on back to the issues and stop fighting each other. This thread about Ellsworth won't get covered up by time if you keep pulling back up to the top while attacking me and not addressing EW anywhere in it. All I can gather is osokolo wants to start an issue here and wants me out on the EW boards typing away. He's singled me out to fight in person, as well as on the boards. I think this is enough and I will apologize to the board again. Osokolo might attack me on my apology again as he did here:

    "you are making me feel very emotional now....

    i didnt have the luxury of having my daddy help me with the gap when i was going through my life. i started from zero, all by myself, and earned every buck with my own hands. so please lay off that crap about who i do or dont like or about some imaginary threats."

    Again, my apologies to the board and I hope osokolo can move on from his antics and we can get back to talking about bikes.
    when i was a student, i didnt have that much time on my hands. but that is probably why i was successful with my studies.

    i stand behind all i said to you. i stated that i didnt disrespect your family as they didnt have anything to do with this discussion. i obviously disrespected you, simply because i dont have respect for you, based on your posts.

    your comment on my father being rotten and insinuation that he abandoned his family is something you must be proud of.

    i repeat, i didnt disrespect any member of your family. unlike you.

    when you stop posting crap i will stop addressing that crap.

    i think it is pretty fair.

  41. #41

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    OK...So I'm one of the rubes out there that

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Agreed that was the most direct and explicit of his posts as of late. Still I am a bit confused by the Id chainstay part.


    I'm part-way with you on this...but having read some of the experiences here, and some related to me by the LBSs I shopped, I get the impression that he has treated some honest warranty claims very poorly. And charging some $500 for a chainstay is a little beyond the pale for me. That's besides the upgrade hardware, but that can be considered to be well explained in the warranty so that's okay with me.


    That's part of the issue as I see it. I didn't see some of the upgrades as low cost at all.

    For me, and let me be the first to say I have no stake in this beyond wishing everyone involved gets a fair deal, I believe his warranty is clearly worded. Anyone buying such an expensive bike should do the 10 minuets of homework to READ it and then call the company for consice plain-english explanation of how it is applied. Anyone who was disappointed because they thought it meant something else, walked into that pit.

    I really don't think the problem lies in the warranty terms. It seems to me that quite a few people got very different treatment than others. It almost seems like EW-CS has some kind of Warranty Quota where they'll give great service to a predetermined number of customers and once they hit a magic number, over a certain period of time, (or bottom out their replacement inventory) they simply take the hardline for everyone else until the refresh begins. Perhaps there is some calculated business model that specifies how many gimmies vs. forgetaboutits is workable for a optimised CS cost control.

    Okay so all of that is pure wild conjecture... It's 28-degs out, lots of snow and ice everywhere, so I can't ride.
    typically doesn't read the warranty. I usually ask the seller to describe the warranty. I know that when I bought the Turner, I only asked about the duration of the warranty. I had heard good things about TUrner CS and wasn't worried.

    When I mentioned Fine Print, I was simply referring to the body of the warranty. I still stand by the statement that for the average person....the term Lifetime Warranty means forever....not the life of the product. I think Ellsworth understands that and increases sales based on that term. Then he can screw people over, pound his chest, and declare that he's following the Warranty to the letter.

    When I see Lifetime Warranty for a bike, I think of Trek and other manufacturers. I never read the body of the Lifetime Warranty for Trek either. THis lifetime of the product is a bunch of crap. Ellsworth knows that many people don't read the Warranty....and of those that do, many will not fully comprehend the implications.

    If Ellsworth is so serious about his Warranty, why doesn't he simply state exactly what the lifetime of the frames are? I know he stated that it varies by rider, but he could state a minimum. Alas....that won't happen....too many lost sales. Stating that the lifetime of the frame may be as low as only a year or 2 would not help sales.

    I feel that the bottom line is that the term Lifetime Warranty is very misleading in this case and should be changed to reflect reality.

  42. #42
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    the egg or the chicken...

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    That's fine, but all your attacks came prior to the personal stuff I brought up and I do recognize that you can't stop attacking me while acting like you're going to drop the issue, as well as villifying me for the issues you began. Also, if you're attacking my studies, I'm a near straight A student in a first tier school for medical studies.

    I think this should rest and I've apologized to the board and I feel you should too. It's the proper thing to do.
    whats older... who cares...

    the fight is between you and me. what did i do wrong to this board? you felt compelled to rant about the manufacturer whose bike you never rode and i rebutted your posts with solely my opinions. is that something i should apologize for?

    many times you and pete said that if one doesnt want to read the post, one shouldnt click on it. i agree with both of you on that...

    i hope that people that didnt want to read this thread certainly didnt read it, but i didnt insult or disrespect anyone else on this board to warrant my apology.

    sometimes discussions deviate in weird ways, but that is nothing unheard of on public boards...

    as far as the discussion between you and I, i have nothing to apologize to you. AFAIC you deserved everything you got. Not that you didnt dish out your share of crap...

    again, when you stop posting crap, i will stop addressing that crap...

    until then, keep in mind that we both are on the public discussion board... key word "discussion"...

    simple...

  43. #43
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    Dumb guys like you are why Tony gets away with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo

    if my bike breaks 3 years down the road, i'll take new frame at the prorated price.

    yes, i am happy with the warranty that will charge me 40-60% to have the new frame after 3 years if my frame breks within that period...

    any time!!!
    You are paying for a lifetime warranty!!!!!!!!! Get this through you head! It is horrendously unethical to sell someone a flawed bike with a lifetime warranty, and then when your frame breaks due to a design flaw, charge for upgrades to the less-flawed edition of the same frame while claiming it is a new model. This is the crux of the issue, nothing more, nothing less.

    One purpose of a warranty is to protect the consumer from design and manufacturing defects. Tony seems to use these defects as an excuse to void warranties, defects which HE HIMSELF is responsible for. And of course, these running changes are billed as beneficial to the consumer, in the name of the best technology possible. If the Truth is the best, why does it have to be throughly revamped so often?

  44. #44
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    i respect your feelings...

    oops, wrong reply... sorry

  45. #45
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    dumb? thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by wyrm
    Keep talking Steve3. Your reputation has gone from pest to none. I think it's about time for you to ditch your profile and wipe your ass so you don't reek so much. Get off your high horse and into a real saddle. Considering you spend all your life on these message boards trying to discredit something you've never owned. Make life more worthwhile, start riding your bike.

    This post is from a group of riders who live to ride and don't worry about discrediting anyone. Bikes break get over it. Maybe it time for you to upgrade anyway. Any real rider knows that bikes need to be upgraded on a regular basis even if that means getting a whole new set up.

    See you on the Trail,
    Wyrm and Friends
    but the warranty says exactly that. can you not read? why are you blaming the manufacturer if you didnt read your warranty card? i dont understand your reasons...

    quote from the warranty registration card:

    Warranty: is limited to the repair / replacement of the frame with like technology, model and color without charge. In the event that the model
    is no longer in production, or parts available, the owner with be offered a pro-rated credit towards the latest technology available. This credit is towards product only and has no monetary value.

    end quote.

    So if it is spelled out clearly like this, what is it that is wrong? if one doesnt like it, one doesnt have to buy Ellsworth.

    i am totally fine with it. just my opinion...

  46. #46
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    Agree fully

    Quote Originally Posted by WarrGuru
    ..typically doesn't read the warranty. I usually ask the seller to describe the warranty. I know that when I bought the Turner, I only asked about the duration of the warranty. I had heard good things about TUrner CS and wasn't worried.
    Call me a rube too then... When I was shopping I called Turner to discuss their warranty. I also called SC and EW. Turner's printed warranty is so short there really isn't anything to read. So I went on their stellar CS history which is well documented here. Their good rep and the fact that the LBSs in this area all dropped EW because of CS problems, steered me away from my first choice, the Id which I tried really really hard to justify over the Turner, but there were just too many CS issues. SC fell off for a different reason: because they recommended the Heckler for my size and needs over the Blur, good advice, but I didn't want a SP bike.

    Quote Originally Posted by WarrGuru
    When I mentioned Fine Print, I was simply referring to the body of the warranty. I still stand by the statement that for the average person....the term Lifetime Warranty means forever....not the life of the product. I think Ellsworth understands that and increases sales based on that term. Then he can screw people over, pound his chest, and declare that he's following the Warranty to the letter.
    I see what you mean. My first impression to lifetime is what I got on my Jamis hardtail...7 years later I snapped my chainstay and they swapped it out no trouble at all. I think lifetime, and yeah that's what I think too. I still felt the need to call and check for the EW...but I didn't for the Jamis...somehow I think the cost was a more compelling reason to investigate.

    Quote Originally Posted by WarrGuru
    I feel that the bottom line is that the term Lifetime Warranty is very misleading in this case and should be changed to reflect reality.
    I fully agree. I'm still not getting this "Lifetime Warranty" thing. While he does describe it well. I just don't see how anyone can consider "Lifetime" 2 or 3 years...I just don't understand how the industry or buying public can accecpt some frames wears out over time, while others can last 10+ years. Metal does fatigue, yeah sure but $2k for a frame that DOES NOT weigh any less than the competition and only lasts 3 years is a reach for me.

    More importantly to say the buyer can expect a "Lifetime" of service and then not specifically state that lifetime is in dog years...is just silly. You better darned well believe if the warranty and brochures included "Lifetime = 3 years depending on rider weight and style", far fewer people would buy it.

    While I normally wouldn't care how a company handles product issues if I'm not buying their product... I think there is reason for general concern here because if we accecpt that a major high profile frame maker can play fast and loose with warranty terms, others may follow, pretty soon the term warranty will have no meaning at all. Remember the early CNC component debacle... back when stems, hubs, seatposts and such were snapping all the time. What if they had considered "Lifetime" one season?
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  47. #47
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    I can respond to that

    Quote Originally Posted by colker1
    i would like to compare ellsworth warr to bontrager.. does anyone know, have experience with warrantying a bontrager? i remeber the old, charming , small ads with: "guaranteed for life... really." so, a bontrager is a hardtail and doesn't evolve technologically as a full suspension?
    My '96 Bontrager has a 5 year, non-transferrable warranty, My Ellsworth has a lifetime, non-transferrable warranty. I have never had occasion to call either for warranty related issues. Nor, to be honest, have I even read the warranty on either 'til recently. For me I'm buying a bike. I'm buying a bike from a reputable company. I'm buying a good bike. If the bike breaks due to a defect it's going to break pretty damn quickly in its lifecycle. Hence I trust the company involved to stand by its product. The warranty itself was not even on my list of selection criteria when buying a new bike, but the company certainly was.
    All this silliness in these posts is BS by a few individuals, many of whom have no experience with Ellsworth's customer service. I have. Once, non-warranty related, twice if you include the proactive call I received from Ellsworth checking on how it was going with my bike. It was a positive and very responsive experience. As was my experience with Bontrager on a technical question (but they never sent me my beer glass for registering my bike )

  48. #48
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    ditto... well said. i agree...

    i agree with all that you said in general...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Call me a rube too then... When I was shopping I called Turner to discuss their warranty. I also called SC and EW. Turner's printed warranty is so short there really isn't anything to read. So I went on their stellar CS history which is well documented here. Their good rep and the fact that the LBSs in this area all dropped EW because of CS problems, steered me away from my first choice, the Id which I tried really really hard to justify over the Turner, but there were just too many CS issues. SC fell off for a different reason: because they recommended the Heckler for my size and needs over the Blur, good advice, but I didn't want a SP bike.


    I see what you mean. My first impression to lifetime is what I got on my Jamis hardtail...7 years later I snapped my chainstay and they swapped it out no trouble at all. I think lifetime, and yeah that's what I think too. I still felt the need to call and check for the EW...but I didn't for the Jamis...somehow I think the cost was a more compelling reason to investigate.


    I fully agree. I'm still not getting this "Lifetime Warranty" thing. While he does describe it well. I just don't see how anyone can consider "Lifetime" 2 or 3 years...I just don't understand how the industry or buying public can accecpt some frames wears out over time, while others can last 10+ years. Metal does fatigue, yeah sure but $2k for a frame that DOES NOT weigh any less than the competition and only lasts 3 years is a reach for me.

    More importantly to say the buyer can expect a "Lifetime" of service and then not specifically state that lifetime is in dog years...is just silly. You better darned well believe if the warranty and brochures included "Lifetime = 3 years depending on rider weight and style", far fewer people would buy it.

    While I normally wouldn't care how a company handles product issues if I'm not buying their product... I think there is reason for general concern here because if we accecpt that a major high profile frame maker can play fast and loose with warranty terms, others may follow, pretty soon the term warranty will have no meaning at all. Remember the early CNC component debacle... back when stems, hubs, seatposts and such were snapping all the time. What if they had considered "Lifetime" one season?

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    osokolo, you are VERY pathetic and sad

    1) this thread isn't about Steve3 or his Tomac. get it?

    2) who are you to INSIST and COMMAND that Steve3 talk about his Tomac?

    3) obviously, you have a lot of self-worth tied up in owning/riding (I hope you ride it) an Ellsworth. why is that? The "gang-banger" old english lettering? The overpriced amount you paid for it? the "lifetime warranty"?

    4) why are you picking on people and not discussing the issues at hand?

    5) don't worry, you aren't paranoid -- we really ARE out to get you.

  50. #50
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    thanks Gonzo...

    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike
    1) this thread isn't about Steve3 or his Tomac. get it?
    no i dont get it. why is it not? by bashing Ellsworth that he never owned while his own Tomac is sitting broken, to me it proves that he has personal issues that i thought i should bring up...


    2) who are you to INSIST and COMMAND that Steve3 talk about his Tomac?
    just a MTBR member as you are, with my own opinion and a bit of backbone. you have problem with that?


    3) obviously, you have a lot of self-worth tied up in owning/riding (I hope you ride it) an Ellsworth. why is that? The "gang-banger" old english lettering? The overpriced amount you paid for it? the "lifetime warranty"?
    you wouldnt know it. you dont own Ellsworth, do you. I dont question your choice of bike, i hope you have fun with it. i chose Ellsworth for it's quality and company that is behind it. this is all only after i rode one extensively and did my research on the net and talking to other owners.


    4) why are you picking on people and not discussing the issues at hand?
    you may ask steve3 the same question. i dont claim i am perfect. i wish i was.


    5) don't worry, you aren't paranoid -- we really ARE out to get you.
    brrrrr , mommy... mommy... someone is being bad with me on the internet..... booooooo
    Last edited by osokolo; 02-15-2004 at 11:34 AM.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    you wouldnt know it. you dont own Ellsworth, do you.
    No, he doesn't own an Ellsworth. Anymore. Like me, he's a former Ellsworth owner who wouldn't buy another one.
    The glass is twice as large as it needs to be

  52. #52
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    Definition of Warranty

    I have had no personal experience with Ellsworth frames but I have had an FSR XC "warranteed" three times. Twice was due to a defective chain stay and once the Seat tube sepearated at a weld. The last time my bike was warranteed (seat tube) I was given a very hard time. Specialized did not want to honor the lifetime warranty because they said that the frame will wear out eventually, they offer a "warranty" not a "guarantee". I went back and forth with them several times and it wasn't untill I spoke to my brother-in-law (attorney) and he told me that they violated the Consumer Fraud Act because of the way they advertised their bike and their decision not to honor their lifetime warranty. After relaying my bro's pearls of wisdom they reluctantly agreed to send me a new frame. By the way my frame at the time was 4 years old. I still am not sure why any company in any line of work would offer a lifetime warranty on a product and then claim that the product will wear out after a couple of years. Marketing hype. The following definitions are courtesy of Meriam-Webster

    Main Entry: war·ran·ty
    Pronunciation: 'wor-&n-tE, 'wär-
    Function: noun
    Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
    Etymology: Middle English warantie, from Old North French, from warantir to warrant
    Date: 14th century
    1 a : a real covenant binding the grantor of an estate and his heirs to warrant and defend the title b : a collateral undertaking that a fact regarding the subject of a contract is or will be as it is expressly or by implication declared or promised to be
    2 : something that authorizes, sanctions, supports, or justifies : WARRANT
    3 : a usually written guarantee of the integrity of a product and of the maker's responsibility for the repair or replacement of defective parts

    Main Entry: [1]guar·an·tee
    Pronunciation: "gar-&n-'tE, "gär- also 'gar-&n-" or 'gär-&n-"
    Function: noun
    Etymology: probably alteration of [1]guaranty
    Date: 1710
    1 : GUARANTOR
    2 : GUARANTY 1
    3 : an assurance for the fulfillment of a condition: as a : an agreement by which one person undertakes to secure another in the possession or enjoyment of something b : an assurance of the quality of or of the length of use to be expected from a product offered for sale often with a promise of reimbursement 4 : GUARANTY 4

  53. #53
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    The langauge is misleading.....

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    but the warranty says exactly that. can you not read? why are you blaming the manufacturer if you didnt read your warranty card? i dont understand your reasons...

    quote from the warranty registration card:

    Warranty: is limited to the repair / replacement of the frame with like technology, model and color without charge. In the event that the model
    is no longer in production, or parts available, the owner with be offered a pro-rated credit towards the latest technology available. This credit is towards product only and has no monetary value.

    end quote.

    So if it is spelled out clearly like this, what is it that is wrong? if one doesnt like it, one doesnt have to buy Ellsworth.

    i am totally fine with it. just my opinion...
    "In the event that the model is no longer in production"

    This line here is the lynchpin of the deception.

    Ostensibly, Tony Ellsworth has been producing the Truth for nearly a decade. A frame with very similar geometry, weight, and intended use has been produced with "Truth" written on the top tube at least since 1997. To me, and most other reasonable consumers, it is the same model, and the warranty should apply. However, each time Tony redesigns the Truth to fix one of his glaring design shortcomings, the lifetime warranty is voided due to Tony's highly restrictive definition of what a "model" consists of. I really don't think I can make this any more clear, so I'm done with the discussion.

    Enjoy your Truth. I rode a 2002 which was a really sweet ride, and it looks like your 2004 should work even better.

  54. #54
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    Idea! What about the rewording of magazine articles?

    I have been reading these threads on and off and find them both funny and informative. I was just wondering if the claims of "E" changing magizine articles was true or not. I know it was mentioned early on but has not been "debated" over since? I find that claim to be more disturbing then the warranty stuff. If its true, can someone post the two articles so we can see what was changed. It may also be a good idea if one of the more passionate contributers here could post a summary of all the facts know to be true from everyone who has had a bad experience with "E". Maybe this should be done for both sides of the argument so any potential buyers can read a concise summary and not have to wade through all these posts that are often just personal attacks to make an informed bike buying decision.

    Just my .03 that I should probably not contribute but I am bored!

    No Flame Suit at the ready!

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozlongboarder
    I have been reading these threads on and off and find them both funny and informative. I was just wondering if the claims of "E" changing magizine articles was true or not. I know it was mentioned early on but has not been "debated" over since? I find that claim to be more disturbing then the warranty stuff. If its true, can someone post the two articles so we can see what was changed. It may also be a good idea if one of the more passionate contributers here could post a summary of all the facts know to be true from everyone who has had a bad experience with "E". Maybe this should be done for both sides of the argument so any potential buyers can read a concise summary and not have to wade through all these posts that are often just personal attacks to make an informed bike buying decision.

    Just my .03 that I should probably not contribute but I am bored!

    No Flame Suit at the ready!
    You can try to find it in the old-mtbr archives, but here's what happened;

    Tony took the review, changed a LOT of words around, and manipulated so that the original meaning of the article was changed, the original article did not say that the Id was the best bike in the review, but tony simply changed a LOT of stuff to make it seem that way, as well as misquoting the magazine regarding the other bikes, in addition to his own.

    When he was called on this(I discovered it because I was looking at one of the bikes in the freeride-shootout), tony CHANGED his website, changed the quotations around so that they were not blaringly misquoted. They were "boarderline" but no longer blaringly changed.

    What happened next was beyond belief for a lot of us. Tony responded to the thread and said that we were making a big deal out of it and that we were WRONG. He pointed to his NEW AND UPDATED website as "evidence" that he didn't misqoute the article.

    So basically, when we called him on it, he went back and changed his site, and then called us LIARS......

    Unfortunatly I don't know how far you will get in trying to look for the article (think it was mountain bike) and how it was originally "changed" on tony's website. I was fortunate enough to see tony's website BEFORE he changed it, when he was quoting the "review" that he had blatently changed to fit his needs. I don't know if it was I that called him out on this fact, but I know that I was one of the first people to notice it and involved in the thread early on.

    Anyhow, it's pretty much accepted that when there is a review manufacturers are going to use the parts that only benefit them, that's not in dispute here, but what Tony did was go so far as to change as many words as needed to make it "suit" his needs.

    This is another reason why we are "relentless" against tony. He showed us that he has no integrity then, and he has continued to do so.

  56. #56
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    hey, i am sorry for both of you

    Quote Originally Posted by andy f
    No, he doesn't own an Ellsworth. Anymore. Like me, he's a former Ellsworth owner who wouldn't buy another one.
    and it'd feel more genuine if bashing came from you. frankly, i wouldnt even dispute it like in Pete's case...

    i hope you are having more luck and fun with your current bikes...

  57. #57
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    thanks for being reasonable...

    Quote Originally Posted by NAHTNOJ
    "In the event that the model is no longer in production"

    This line here is the lynchpin of the deception.

    Ostensibly, Tony Ellsworth has been producing the Truth for nearly a decade. A frame with very similar geometry, weight, and intended use has been produced with "Truth" written on the top tube at least since 1997. To me, and most other reasonable consumers, it is the same model, and the warranty should apply. However, each time Tony redesigns the Truth to fix one of his glaring design shortcomings, the lifetime warranty is voided due to Tony's highly restrictive definition of what a "model" consists of. I really don't think I can make this any more clear, so I'm done with the discussion.

    Enjoy your Truth. I rode a 2002 which was a really sweet ride, and it looks like your 2004 should work even better.
    i think we need that after all the mud that was flying in all directions...

  58. #58
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    good articles about...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    You can try to find it in the old-mtbr archives, but here's what happened;

    Tony took the review, changed a LOT of words around, and manipulated so that the original meaning of the article was changed, the original article did not say that the Id was the best bike in the review, but tony simply changed a LOT of stuff to make it seem that way, as well as misquoting the magazine regarding the other bikes, in addition to his own.

    When he was called on this(I discovered it because I was looking at one of the bikes in the freeride-shootout), tony CHANGED his website, changed the quotations around so that they were not blaringly misquoted. They were "boarderline" but no longer blaringly changed.

    What happened next was beyond belief for a lot of us. Tony responded to the thread and said that we were making a big deal out of it and that we were WRONG. He pointed to his NEW AND UPDATED website as "evidence" that he didn't misqoute the article.

    So basically, when we called him on it, he went back and changed his site, and then called us LIARS......

    Unfortunatly I don't know how far you will get in trying to look for the article (think it was mountain bike) and how it was originally "changed" on tony's website. I was fortunate enough to see tony's website BEFORE he changed it, when he was quoting the "review" that he had blatently changed to fit his needs. I don't know if it was I that called him out on this fact, but I know that I was one of the first people to notice it and involved in the thread early on.

    Anyhow, it's pretty much accepted that when there is a review manufacturers are going to use the parts that only benefit them, that's not in dispute here, but what Tony did was go so far as to change as many words as needed to make it "suit" his needs.

    This is another reason why we are "relentless" against tony. He showed us that he has no integrity then, and he has continued to do so.

    2004 Ellsworth Truth and Turner 5 spot you will find in December 2003 issue of Mountain bike action... just FYI...

  59. #59
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    Get this, a sexist too! Just look!

    "Anyway, when a man thinks about it like this, it's all good. "
    This is from his first paragraph of his diatribe....

  60. #60

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    Successful with your studies?

    "you dont have experience with Ellsworth, hence not that you wouldnt be disqualified in this debate"
    "i have nothing to apologize to you."
    "i rebutted your posts with solely my opinions".
    "i still didnt call you any names, unlike you did call me"
    "you can not insult me what ever you say this way"
    "saying that stuff in my face person in person"
    "now prove yourself and then the others that you can sound reasonable from time to time on this board too"
    "my bike is awaiting to go on the trails"
    "a chance to read what nothing of YOUR experience you have to say about Ellsworth"

    What on Earth were you studying?
    Last edited by Spoiler; 02-15-2004 at 07:05 PM.

  61. #61
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    english is my second language my friend...

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoiler
    "you dont have experience with Ellsworth, hence not that you wouldnt be disqualified in this debate"
    "i have nothing to apologize to you."
    "i rebutted your posts with solely my opinions".
    "i still didnt call you any names, unlike you did call me"
    "you can not insult me what ever you say this way"
    "saying that stuff in my face person in person"
    "now prove yourself and then the others that you can sound reasonable from time to time on this board too"
    "my bike is awaiting to go on the trails"
    "a chance to read what nothing of YOUR experience you have to say about Ellsworth"

    What on Earth were you studying?
    if that is all you can point to in my discussion, so be it...

    obviously you could only challenge my english, nothing else. i can live with that...

    thank you anyway for pointing these errors to me.

  62. #62

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    And you still didn't answer my question.

  63. #63
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    heh, electrical engineering sir...

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoiler
    And you still didn't answer my question.
    any other questions you may have?

  64. #64

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    more questions

    Sure. What's your first language. Where did you emigrate from? What brought you to Canada?

    I apologize for dissing your grammar. It's irrelivant to the topic.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoiler
    Sure. What's your first language. Where did you emigrate from?
    I emigrated from Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1992.



    What brought you to Canada?
    my ex-girlfriend


    I apologize for dissing your grammar. It's irrelivant to the topic.
    i know. no prob. i might have came acros as a prick... wasnt my intention...

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozlongboarder
    I have been reading these threads on and off and find them both funny and informative. I was just wondering if the claims of "E" changing magizine articles was true or not....I am bored!
    No Flame Suit at the ready!
    It was covered in great detail in the archives. I posted a link to whole ugly mess in the first EW warranty thread here in the new "General" forum. If you really want to read about it, you can start from the beginning of the thread in the new forum, and follow the links. or just do a search on my posts.

    There's probably more info than you'll really want to read

    cheers!
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  67. #67
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    man, this is really f*cking stupid. can steve3 and osokolo be banned from the internet? and lastly, if you don't like ellsworth, don't buy one. now everyone shut up and find something different to complain about.

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    Actually, you can complain.

    Quote Originally Posted by smelly
    man, this is really f*cking stupid. can steve3 and osokolo be banned from the internet? and lastly, if you don't like ellsworth, don't buy one. now everyone shut up and find something different to complain about.
    To the site moderators. They have an option to ban a user for being out of line. Not just the username, but the system they are originating from.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    no i dont get it. why is it not? by bashing Ellsworth that he never owned while his own Tomac is sitting broken, to me it proves that he has personal issues that i thought i should bring up...
    Fine. I'll bash ellsworth even though I don't own one. I WAS A DEALER FOR THEM. I witnessed the "upgrade" charges and so on for defective designing and manufacturing firsthand. Lifetime warranty my arse. The very first truths had a defective shock mount. The redesigned frame needed a new shock because they changed the linkage geometry and the mount position. This is a design defect. EVERY other brand would provide the replacement shock with the replacement frame. But no, not ellsworth.

    And what about the point that someone else raised....that under US laws, offering a lifetime warranty requires at least 10 years of product support/spare parts. You haven't got a response to that do you?

    Answer-Manitou offered a lifetime warranty on the very first Manitou 1 (including the elastomers), and you know what, even though technology advanced, and they long since exhausted their spare parts inventory, original owners with the original warranty card still can go to Answer, and get a NEW manitou fork as replacement for their deceased original Manitou 1. No upgrade charge at all.

  70. #70
    Jm.
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    So to sum this up, if you buy an ellsworth;

    you get a 10 year breakage-replacement deal, at ~60% of a new bike(dealer cost).

    you have to pay for his design flaws

    tony is in violation of the us law by not keeping spare parts or upgrading the customer to the equivalent part/frame at no cost.

    there is no lifetime warrenty as would be implied by the words "lifetime warrenty against manufacturer defects". There's a catch 22 to get around design flaws by "upgrading", and Tony will deny till his grave that his products are perfect.

  71. #71
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    dealer cost is usually 35-40 percent, not 60%...

    Just a numerical clarification. On average, shops recieve 28% on the boutique stuff, at the end of the day (transaction).

  72. #72
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    This is about where I got sick

    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    Tony Ellsworth
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    This is where that whole bad rap about customer service and not honoring warranty on MTBR came from in the first place I think. This doesn't happen like this very often. But when it does, most of the time, folks are ecstatic about $500 for a brand new frame. Occasionally, someone is indignant about the $500--didn't read the warranty, or maybe doesn't understand products must evolve and change to become better over the years, like software, cars, ovens, motorcycles, shoes, and yes...bikes. And they continue to rant and complain on MTBR so that you'd think the whole world has broken Ellsworth's...and Ellsworth blows them off when it happens. These rants are half-truth’s of a vocal few. As to the idea that I change products to avoid warranty that’s ridiculous.
    I couldn't take anymore of this BS. I tried to read it but just couldn't. (TE i hope you're reading this and will answer) To me it appears you are trying to sugar coat it by applying a situation that looks favorable to you (3 year frame, 2nd owner, blah blah blah). Let's say though I have a 1 year old frame that breaks and it really is a design/manufactoring fault. You say the technology changes and I have to pony up $500 beans. Well now, what you thought was such a great deal isn't anymore. The thing is, you never seem to stock any parts for prior years models. Why is that?
    Does Tony ever address this anywhere in the rest of his response?
    People don't think it be like it is, but it do - Oscar Gamble

  73. #73
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    if i may suggest a solution to you...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Weasel
    I couldn't take anymore of this BS. I tried to read it but just couldn't. (TE i hope you're reading this and will answer) To me it appears you are trying to sugar coat it by applying a situation that looks favorable to you (3 year frame, 2nd owner, blah blah blah). Let's say though I have a 1 year old frame that breaks and it really is a design/manufactoring fault. You say the technology changes and I have to pony up $500 beans. Well now, what you thought was such a great deal isn't anymore. The thing is, you never seem to stock any parts for prior years models. Why is that?
    Does Tony ever address this anywhere in the rest of his response?
    so you read the warranty and it is pretty clear, no?

    you dont like the warranty - dont buy the freaking bike. it is that easy. warranty registration card says:

    "...In the event that the model is no longer in production, or parts available, the owner with be offered a pro-rated credit towards the latest technology available. This credit is towards product only and has no monetary value.."

    if you dont like it, dont buy the bike...

    it sounds fine to me. i got the bike.

    it is so simple.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    Fine. I'll bash ellsworth even though I don't own one. I WAS A DEALER FOR THEM. I witnessed the "upgrade" charges and so on for defective designing and manufacturing firsthand. Lifetime warranty my arse. The very first truths had a defective shock mount. The redesigned frame needed a new shock because they changed the linkage geometry and the mount position. This is a design defect. EVERY other brand would provide the replacement shock with the replacement frame. But no, not ellsworth.

    And what about the point that someone else raised....that under US laws, offering a lifetime warranty requires at least 10 years of product support/spare parts. You haven't got a response to that do you?

    Answer-Manitou offered a lifetime warranty on the very first Manitou 1 (including the elastomers), and you know what, even though technology advanced, and they long since exhausted their spare parts inventory, original owners with the original warranty card still can go to Answer, and get a NEW manitou fork as replacement for their deceased original Manitou 1. No upgrade charge at all.
    this is what you can read from the warranty registration card:

    "...In the event that the model is no longer in production, or parts available, the owner with be offered a pro-rated credit towards the latest technology available. This credit
    is towards product only and has no monetary value..."

    what is so hard to understand here?

    it is pretty understandable to me. if one doesnt like this warranty, one shouldnt buy the bike. end of the story.

  75. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    this is what you can read from the warranty registration card:

    "...In the event that the model is no longer in production, or parts available, the owner with be offered a pro-rated credit towards the latest technology available. This credit
    is towards product only and has no monetary value..."

    what is so hard to understand here?

    it is pretty understandable to me. if one doesnt like this warranty, one shouldnt buy the bike. end of the story.
    If one buys a bike, one expects the warranty to be honored when the bike fails due to a design flaw or manufacturing defect.

    In Tonyspeak, a model is "no longer in production" if he corrects his design flaws in the 2001 Truth by introducing a 2002 Truth.

    Imagine GM/Ford/etc. not honoring warranty claims due to design flaws/manufacturing defects simply because they had introduced a new body style.

    "our frames will last a lifetime"

    "Designs are proven through continual racing, testing and prototyping, ensuring the Ellsworth bike you ride is at the pinnacle of technology, value and riding enjoyment"

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    If one buys a bike, one expects the warranty to be honored when the bike fails due to a design flaw or manufacturing defect.

    In Tonyspeak, a model is "no longer in production" if he corrects his design flaws in the 2001 Truth by introducing a 2002 Truth.

    Imagine GM/Ford/etc. not honoring warranty claims due to design flaws/manufacturing defects simply because they had introduced a new body style.

    "our frames will last a lifetime"

    "Designs are proven through continual racing, testing and prototyping, ensuring the Ellsworth bike you ride is at the pinnacle of technology, value and riding enjoyment"
    Pete, i agree with your point. it would have been even better if that is the case. Would i prefer that language on the warranty card? i sure would.

    but with what is printed on the warranty card, it is hard to argue this point.

    we may argue that "Lifetime Warranty" term shoudnt be used anywhere, but "Limited Lifetime Warranty" instead.

    then i would agree 100% with you.

  77. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    Pete, i agree with your point. it would have been even better if that is the case. Would i prefer that language on the warranty card? i sure would.

    but with what is printed on the warranty card, it is hard to argue this point.
    I disagree. I think that it would be an extremely easy court case to win given the Tonyspeak definition of "new model."

    We'll just have to wait for Tony, or one of his "customer service" drones to piss off the wrong consumer to see it happen.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    Pete, i agree with your point. it would have been even better if that is the case. Would i prefer that language on the warranty card? i sure would.

    but with what is printed on the warranty card, it is hard to argue this point.

    we may argue that "Lifetime Warranty" term shoudnt be used anywhere, but "Limited Lifetime Warranty" instead.

    then i would agree 100% with you.
    Not to add fuel to the fire but after reading this post i agree with the limited lifetime.
    I think we could all see the chaos if a car comapny put lifetime 1 year warranty?

  79. #79
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    interesting point,

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    I disagree. I think that it would be an extremely easy court case to win given the Tonyspeak definition of "new model."

    We'll just have to wait for Tony, or one of his "customer service" drones to piss off the wrong consumer to see it happen.
    however, why do you think it didnt happen in the past so far?

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    however, why do you think it didnt happen in the past so far?
    Cause going to court is so darn cheap!

  81. #81
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    i've seen people suing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Cause going to court is so darn cheap!
    for much less damage... i am sure you have too.

  82. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    however, why do you think it didnt happen in the past so far?
    1. Tony and/or one of his "customer service" drones hasn't pissed off the right customer yet.
    2. Someone might have been pissed off, threatened to sue, and their LBS worked it out, Ellsworth worked it out, etc., etc. (settled prior to litigation).
    3. It could have happened but it's not public knowledge.

  83. #83
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    well, all 3 situations are a possibility...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    1. Tony and/or one of his "customer service" drones hasn't pissed off the right customer yet.
    2. Someone might have been pissed off, threatened to sue, and their LBS worked it out, Ellsworth worked it out, etc., etc. (settled prior to litigation).
    3. It could have happened but it's not public knowledge.
    but Pete, do you think these kind of warranty problems are limited only to Ellsworth?

  84. #84
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    but Pete, do you think these kind of warranty problems are limited only to Ellsworth?
    Yes, because other manufacturers either have realistic warrentys, don't try to mask their flaws with "upgrades", or generally live up to the terms that they list.

    Also, once again, what about the requirement to keep parts in stock for 10 years? It's not necessary when the company at no cost provides the customer with the equivalent model, but this doesn't happen with ellsworth and we know that to be true. So what about that requirement?

  85. #85
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    you are not realistic...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Yes, because other manufacturers either have realistic warrentys, don't try to mask their flaws with "upgrades", or generally live up to the terms that they list.

    Also, once again, what about the requirement to keep parts in stock for 10 years? It's not necessary when the company at no cost provides the customer with the equivalent model, but this doesn't happen with ellsworth and we know that to be true. So what about that requirement?
    Ellsworth warranty says: (again)

    "In the event that the model is no longer in production, or parts available, the owner with be offered a pro-rated credit towards the latest technology available. This credit is towards product only and has no monetary value."

    what part of that statement is not clear to you?

    can you please give me the link to a regulation that states that the manufacturer should keep 10 years parts stock? i am not a corporate lawyer nor i had to deal with this kind of issue ever in my life, so i dont really know.

    but as far as i am concerned, Ells warranty is pretty clear.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    Ellsworth warranty says: (again)

    "In the event that the model is no longer in production, or parts available, the owner with be offered a pro-rated credit towards the latest technology available. This credit is towards product only and has no monetary value."

    what part of that statement is not clear to you?

    can you please give me the link to a regulation that states that the manufacturer should keep 10 years parts stock? i am not a corporate lawyer nor i had to deal with this kind of issue ever in my life, so i dont really know.

    but as far as i am concerned, Ells warranty is pretty clear.
    It's also a lie. It is a lie because he is saying that his bikes are perfect and do not suffer from any flaws, and if a bike should break the owner is forced to PAY ellsworth, irregardless of it if is due to just overal fatique(reaching the end of the life of the frame), neglect, or a flaw. I can't think of any bikes that have been "perfect", and ellsworths are no exception, I know of several flaws on different models of ellsworthless bikes. This is what the warrenty doesn't state. It is not clear, it is missleading because of this fact. The warrenty would have to state;

    "Models will be changed periodically to correct flaws and optimze them for the intended usage. Because Ellsworth bikes will be periodically changed the 10 year warrenty will be impossible. What we offer is a 10 year breakage-replacement deal at the rate of approximatly 60% of the retail price of the part. It doesn't matter if we changed the design one year after you buy your bike, or 9 years, you will not be able to warrenty your bike. In the event that the model is no longer in production, or parts available, you will not be able to get the same model-parts for your bike because we will not keep a stock of parts on hand. This is yet another way that we don't offer a 10 year warrenty. So to recap, Ellsworth bikes will not keep a stock of parts for your bike nor will we provide you with the equivalent year bike at no cost. You will be forced to pay for our mistakes."

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    but Pete, do you think these kind of warranty problems are limited only to Ellsworth?
    I know of no other bike manufacturer, or any manufacturer for that matter, that predicates their warranty upon the "model" still being in production.

    The fact of the matter is that Ellsworth like many manufacturers make running changes to their bikes.

    When they make a change in a Truth due to a design flaw they apparently do not replace that Truth with the "upgraded" model under the warranty since in Tonyspeak, it's now a different model, called the Truth.

    An example:

    I have a 2001 car that had a manufacturing defect with the transmission. That defect was fixed in the 2002 model year.

    What do you think my reaction would have been if I brought my car in to the dealer in 2003 to be fixed and I was asked to pay an "upgrade" charge because my model was no longer made (after all, in 2002 they improved the transmission, a different model in Tonyspeak)?

    All bike coompanies have warranty situations with their frames. Nobody can be perfect. It's how the company handles those situations that is the true test.

    Unfortunately, Ellsworth has handled a number of those situations in a poor manner, if people can be believed. The fact that their marketing efforts have hyped the fact that they have a "lifetime warranty" and "the best warranty" when in fact their warranty relies on Tonyspeak "model changes" to escape their expected warranty obligations has only compounded their problems.

  88. #88
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    to each his/her own

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    It's also a lie. It is a lie because he is saying that his bikes are perfect and do not suffer from any flaws, and if a bike should break the owner is forced to PAY ellsworth, irregardless of it if is due to just overal fatique(reaching the end of the life of the frame), neglect, or a flaw. I can't think of any bikes that have been "perfect", and ellsworths are no exception, I know of several flaws on different models of ellsworthless bikes. This is what the warrenty doesn't state. It is not clear, it is missleading because of this fact. The warrenty would have to state;

    "Models will be changed periodically to correct flaws and optimze them for the intended usage. Because Ellsworth bikes will be periodically changed the 10 year warrenty will be impossible. What we offer is a 10 year breakage-replacement deal at the rate of approximatly 60% of the retail price of the part. It doesn't matter if we changed the design one year after you buy your bike, or 9 years, you will not be able to warrenty your bike. In the event that the model is no longer in production, or parts available, you will not be able to get the same model-parts for your bike because we will not keep a stock of parts on hand. This is yet another way that we don't offer a 10 year warrenty. So to recap, Ellsworth bikes will not keep a stock of parts for your bike nor will we provide you with the equivalent year bike at no cost. You will be forced to pay for our mistakes."
    you dont like the warranty, you dont buy the bike.

    i simply dont agree with you but that is fine. we both are entitled to our own opinions. i guess that is why i will be riding Ellsworth product and you will not. nothing wrong with that.

  89. #89
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    Fact: There is no 10 year warrenty. There is a 10 year breakage replacement program. No mater how you break your frame, if it was a flaw, neglect, or the frame reached the end of it's usefull life(few FS bikes last 10 years), YOU have to pay.

  90. #90
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    good point

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    I know of no other bike manufacturer, or any manufacturer for that matter, that predicates their warranty upon the "model" still being in production.

    The fact of the matter is that Ellsworth like many manufacturers make running changes to their bikes.

    When they make a change in a Truth due to a design flaw they apparently do not replace that Truth with the "upgraded" model under the warranty since in Tonyspeak, it's now a different model, called the Truth.

    An example:

    I have a 2001 car that had a manufacturing defect with the transmission. That defect was fixed in the 2002 model year.

    What do you think my reaction would have been if I brought my car in to the dealer in 2003 to be fixed and I was asked to pay an "upgrade" charge because my model was no longer made (after all, in 2002 they improved the transmission, a different model in Tonyspeak)?

    All bike coompanies have warranty situations with their frames. Nobody can be perfect. It's how the company handles those situations that is the true test.

    Unfortunately, Ellsworth has handled a number of those situations in a poor manner, if people can be believed. The fact that their marketing efforts have hyped the fact that they have a "lifetime warranty" and "the best warranty" when in fact their warranty relies on Tonyspeak "model changes" to escape their expected warranty obligations has only compounded their problems.
    i will admit that i'd expect no charge warranty within the first year since the purchase, and i think that this is pretty realistic expectation. Now, i will probably get it without any problems (if i need it of course) since i purchased 2004 frame and it is the begining of this manufacturing year. the situation would be different if i purchased the frame at the end of the 2004 and there was some changes in the design coming in 2005. would i get that first year covered without charge? i dont know but i would nevertheless expect it.

    of course, this is all speculation. i would like to hear if anyone was denied charge free warranty within the first year of the usage...

    beyond the first year of ownership, but within 10 years of ownership, i'd expected pro-rated crash replacement of warranty repairs.

    this would be my minimum. everything beyond this would be bonus.

    as i stated previously, i'd be ready to support continuous research and upgrades through pro-rated warranty replacement charges beyond the first year of ownership.

    what do you think?

  91. #91
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    well, you brought 10 years up...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Fact: There is no 10 year warrenty. There is a 10 year breakage replacement program. No mater how you break your frame, if it was a flaw, neglect, or the frame reached the end of it's usefull life(few FS bikes last 10 years), YOU have to pay.
    i didnt think there was 10 year warranty. but you mentioned that Ells didnt keep 10 years parts stock and i wanted to know why would they keep 10 year part stock and is it really some kind of regulation or law...

    I wish car industry offers 10 year crash replacement warranty where you pay 60% of the retail. would you take it?

    i surely would...

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    of course, this is all speculation. i would like to hear if anyone was denied charge free warranty within the first year of the usage...
    You must have missed a lot of the stories.
    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    beyond the first year of ownership, but within 10 years of ownership, i'd expected pro-rated crash replacement of warranty repairs.
    Dealer cost is usually not pro-rated crash replacement. Check out Santa Cruz for an example.
    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    as i stated previously, i'd be ready to support continuous research and upgrades through pro-rated warranty replacement charges beyond the first year of ownership.
    But what about a flaw that is called an "upgade". Seriously, what are you going to do? Happily hand over 1200 bucks?

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    i didnt think there was 10 year warranty. but you mentioned that Ells didnt keep 10 years parts stock and i wanted to know why would they keep 10 year part stock and is it really some kind of regulation or law...

    I wish car industry offers 10 year crash replacement warranty where you pay 60% of the retail. would you take it?

    i surely would...
    my car has a 100,000 mile warrenty. If anything breaks it will be replaced. This is what my warrenty states. Ellsworth's warrenty doesn't state that the customer will be forced to pay ellsworth if their bike breaks and is no longer the current model. It is very specifically this omission that makes the ellsworth warrenty a lie. It isn't a warrenty because a warrenty implies that the bike maker is going to take responsability for any deficiancy of their product that is not an abuse by the owner. In Ellsworth's case, the OWNER is taking resposnability if their bike breaks prematurely or due to a flaw. This is completely rediculous and I don't know of any one else that uses the same practice.

  94. #94
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    let me then ask you this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    You must have missed a lot of the stories.

    Dealer cost is usually not pro-rated crash replacement. Check out Santa Cruz for an example.

    But what about a flaw that is called an "upgade". Seriously, what are you going to do? Happily hand over 1200 bucks?
    do you always buy the cheapest priced product or you try to support your LBS?

    i try to support my LBS, actually probably 2 of them because it is not always the price that matters. LBS organize group rides, they have that freaking tool that you still didnt buy etc.

    i believe that same logic applies to manufacturer. i think that Ellsworth offers it's share of innovation on the MTB market. they are the best in something, like company X is the best in something else. i think that it is good to have few companies that are the best in different areas so that the consumer can find the product that fits their needs the best.

    and yes, i am ready to support a company like Ells because they have the product that is the closest to what i wanted to have. I think Ells Truth is the closest FS bike to my last hardtail rig. that was the most important requirement that i had when i started my search.

    other companies are strong in other areas, but didnt meet my most important requirement...

    i hope at least you understand where i am coming from with this. we dont have to agree, but at least i hope i made myself clear...

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    my car has a 100,000 mile warrenty. If anything breaks it will be replaced. This is what my warrenty states. Ellsworth's warrenty doesn't state that the customer will be forced to pay ellsworth if their bike breaks and is no longer the current model.
    wait the minute, the warranty states this:

    "...In the event that the model is no longer in production, or parts available, the owner with be offered a pro-rated credit towards the latest technology available. This credit
    is towards product only and has no monetary value..."

    how can you say it does not state that?


    It is very specifically this omission that makes the ellsworth warrenty a lie. It isn't a warrenty because a warrenty implies that the bike maker is going to take responsability for any deficiancy of their product that is not an abuse by the owner. In Ellsworth's case, the OWNER is taking resposnability if their bike breaks prematurely or due to a flaw. This is completely rediculous and I don't know of any one else that uses the same practice.
    i thought that the statement from the warranty above is pretty specific and self explanatory. i dont understand what you are talking about now...

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    wait the minute, the warranty states this:

    "...In the event that the model is no longer in production, or parts available, the owner with be offered a pro-rated credit towards the latest technology available. This credit
    is towards product only and has no monetary value..."

    how can you say it does not state that?

    i thought that the statement from the warranty above is pretty specific and self explanatory. i dont understand what you are talking about now...
    Your assumption is based on three false premises;

    1, that ellsworth bikes will never have flaws and therefore a user needing a new frame is only the result of the users fault

    2 that a life-time warrenty is reasonable for a life-limited product like a bike frame.

    3 the "if the model is not available" clause gives the company the excuse to deny no-cost replacement to the consumer, even if the model is changed the day after the bike is bought(due to a flaw or some other reason). I am not arguing the warrenty, but I AM arguing the legality of it, and I am pretty sure this is illegal, even though it is stated in his warrenty.

    I am sure he is either in a "grey area" or has some illegal practices. I tried looking up the laws but it is a very complex process and not something that I think I can find in a few minutes. I'll find it though.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Your assumption is based on three false premises;

    1, that ellsworth bikes will never have flaws and therefore a user needing a new frame is only the result of the users fault
    not really. i dont make that assumption. my thought is that all frames break, and no one is making perfect, life long durable product...


    2 that a life-time warrenty is reasonable for a life-limited product like a bike frame.
    frankly, i never accepted or assumed that Ellsworth had unlimited lifetime warranty. it just doesnt make sense to me.

    now if you want to discuss if someone is advertising "lifetime warranty" and it really is limited lifetime warranty, i would not argue that because it'd be a weak case for me.

    3 the "if the model is not available" clause gives the company the excuse to deny no-cost replacement to the consumer, even if the model is changed the day after the bike is bought(due to a flaw or some other reason). I am not arguing the warrenty, but I AM arguing the legality of it, and I am pretty sure this is illegal, even though it is stated in his warrenty.
    that is valid concern. i cant argue against it. i agree.

    I am sure he is either in a "grey area" or has some illegal practices. I tried looking up the laws but it is a very complex process and not something that I think I can find in a few minutes. I'll find it though.
    could be, i dont really know, maybe it is totally legal. we are speculating here.

    i still go back to the fact that potential buyer does not have to buy the bike if he/she is not satisfied with the warranty. i think that is the begining and the end of the debate...

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    i'd have my problem if the bike was presented to me as having a lifetime warranty, i bought it, then when given all the paperwork, i read the warranty card (which i did not notice the word lifetime on it once) to find the stated warranty. if i read the card prior to purchase, which i think the manufacturer hopes doesn't happen, i'd look for a bike with a stronger backing, if warranty was of high importance. the ellsworth warranty is more of a disclaimer.

    that being said, i think it's pretty bogus that replacement parts aren't readily available. the warranty card shouldn't read "if" parts aren't available, it should say "when". what perplexes me, is if, as tony claims, the failures are minimal, why choose to bone the customer? step up and fix the problem, especially since you won't have to do it many times. i don't think it is reasonable to charge someone $500 for a legitimate warranty claim. if it is a legitimate warranty claim, than it should be concluded the customer is 0% at fault, so why in the hell should they have to pay, because the manufacturer chooses to not stock the necessary replacement parts?

    what if you don't want the "newer tech." stuff? it's quibbling over words, but it states it is "offered", not "required". i'd think you can say "no thanks, i'd like a direct replacement for the frame i purchased."

    also, that dodge truck comparison was just stupid. i'd like to see how tony would handle it if dodge told him that technology improved, and there are no shocks to replace the worn out ones on your truck. you'll need to get a new truck, sorry, but i'm sure you'll understand. we're just trying to get the best shocks on the market.

  99. #99
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    Bing! Wrong answer...

    Quote Originally Posted by J-mizzle
    Ride Santa Cruz or something else!
    HA! Why Santa Cruz? Let's see.... my trusty 8 month old Blur (I love it, BTW, and respect SC to boot, for the most part...) has gone through multiple sets of lower pivot bearings, has had new linkages installed, 2 set's of shock bushings & eyelets worn out, oh, and the front triangle cracked, merriting a 2nd trip out to SC in it's short life...!

    Now, SC stepped up to the plate "per warranty" and each time addressed and fixed the problem(s!) but each time/claim represented significant time off the bike in prime riding season last year. Did it solve all my problems and satisfy me completely? No. Now, despite loving the way the bike rides, I am worried about durability this coming racing season as I have a new front end and old swingarm..... each on their own warranties! The thing that killed me was 3-4 week turnaround. That may be pretty good, but in the era of high speed communication & shipping, it drove me completely insane. I offered/asked multiple times to foot the bill for expedited shipping, but was refused each time. Not really sure why, in fact.... especially when I recieved the frame the 2nd time back from SC and they had forgot to ship the shock with it! It was 8 days later that I had a 400 gram small part in my hands... I thought this was crazy.

    My point is, most every manufactured product out there, especially a mtbike frame or component, will eventually fail. In some case, this process is accelerated by mis-use or by mfr. defect (my case). My opinion is that Tony seems like he's shooting straight and obviously spent an awful lot of time addressing a few internet mtbike whiners (like me) and was honest. I don't know what else one can expect here.....
    "It's better to regret something you HAVE done, than something you haven't..." -

  100. #100

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    Good Solution

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    so you read the warranty and it is pretty clear, no?

    you dont like the warranty - dont buy the freaking bike. it is that easy. warranty registration card says:

    "...In the event that the model is no longer in production, or parts available, the owner with be offered a pro-rated credit towards the latest technology available. This credit is towards product only and has no monetary value.."

    if you dont like it, dont buy the bike...

    it sounds fine to me. i got the bike.

    it is so simple.
    "In the event"???????? That statement makes it sound like it's a rare happening. If it were truth-ful (pun intended) it would mention that a small tweak to the frame would make it a different bike.....and that it could occur in less than a year or 2. The average consumer would assume that as long as Ellsworth makes the ID, that they will not have to pay anything if the frame breaks due to a defect. It's outrageous that Ellsworth's definition of what constitutes "a model in production".

    I'm really glad this post was started.....and I will take your advice and not buy the freaking bike. I'll also do my best to inform any prospective Ellsworth buyers, that I know, that the Lifetime Warranty isn't lifetime...it's most likely 1-3 years AND even if the bike is only 1 year old, they may have to pay for replacement parts...even if it is a 100% manufacturing defect.

  101. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by glenzx
    and was honest. I don't know what else one can expect here.....
    He has lied a number of times on MTBR forums.

    I think people expect honesty.

    That's one of the reasons why he gets so much well-deserved grief.

  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarrGuru
    the Lifetime Warranty isn't lifetime...it's most likely 1-3 years AND even if the bike is only 1 year old, they may have to pay for replacement parts...even if it is a 100% manufacturing defect.
    I think that is the bottom line.

  103. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    but Pete, do you think these kind of warranty problems are limited only to Ellsworth?
    what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    Ellsworth warranty says: (again)

    "In the event that the model is no longer in production, or parts available, the owner with be offered a pro-rated credit towards the latest technology available. This credit is towards product only and has no monetary value."

    what part of that statement is not clear to you?

    can you please give me the link to a regulation that states that the manufacturer should keep 10 years parts stock? i am not a corporate lawyer nor i had to deal with this kind of issue ever in my life, so i dont really know.

    but as far as i am concerned, Ells warranty is pretty clear.

    Here's some more info for you guys...

    Sec. 2304. Federal minimum standards for warranties

    (a) Remedies under written warranty; duration of implied warranty;
    exclusion or limitation on consequential damages for breach of
    written or implied warranty; election of refund or replacement
    In order for a warrantor warranting a consumer product by means of a written
    warranty to meet the Federal minimum standards for warranty -
    (1) such warrantor must as a minimum remedy such consumer
    product within a reasonable time and without charge, in the case
    of a defect, malfunction, or failure to conform with such written
    warranty;
    (2) notwithstanding section 2308(b) of this title, such
    warrantor may not impose any limitation on the duration of any
    implied warranty on the product;
    (3) such warrantor may not exclude or limit consequential
    damages for breach of any written or implied warranty on such
    product, unless such exclusion or limitation conspicuously
    appears on the face of the warranty; and
    (4) if the product (or a component part thereof) contains a
    defect or malfunction after a reasonable number of attempts by
    the warrantor to remedy defects or malfunctions in such product,
    such warrantor must permit the consumer to elect either a refund
    for, or replacement without charge of, such product or part (as
    the case may be). The Commission may by rule specify for
    purposes of this paragraph, what constitutes a reasonable number
    of attempts to remedy particular kinds of defects or malfunctions
    under different circumstances. If the warrantor replaces a
    component part of a consumer product, such replacement shall
    include installing the part in the product without charge

    (d) Remedy without charge
    For purposes of this section and of section 2302(c) of this title, the term
    ''without charge'' means that the warrantor may not assess the consumer for
    any costs the warrantor or his representatives incur in connection with the
    required remedy of a warranted consumer product. An obligation under
    subsection (a)(1)(A) of this section to remedy without charge does not
    necessarily require the warrantor to compensate the consumer for incidental
    expenses; however, if any incidental expenses are incurred because the
    remedy is not made within a reasonable time or because the warrantor imposed
    an unreasonable duty upon the consumer as a condition of securing remedy,
    then the consumer shall be entitled to recover reasonable incidental
    expenses which are so incurred in any action against the warrantor.

    <Begin CALIFORNIA LAW>

    1792.1. Every sale of consumer goods that are sold at retail in
    this state by a manufacturer who has reason to know at the time of
    the retail sale that the goods are required for a particular purpose
    and that the buyer is relying on the manufacturer's skill or judgment
    to select or furnish suitable goods shall be accompanied by such
    manufacturer's implied warranty of fitness.


    1793.3. If the manufacturer of consumer goods sold in this state
    for which the manufacturer has made an express warranty does not
    provide service and repair facilities within this state pursuant to
    subdivision (a) of Section 1793.2, or does not make available to
    authorized service and repair facilities service literature and
    replacement parts sufficient to effect repair during the express
    warranty period, the buyer of such manufacturer's nonconforming goods
    may follow the course of action prescribed in either subdivision
    (a), (b), or (c), below, as follows:
    (a) Return the nonconforming consumer goods to the retail seller
    thereof. The retail seller shall do one of the following:
    (1) Service or repair the nonconforming goods to conform to the
    applicable warranty.
    (2) Direct the buyer to a reasonably close independent repair or
    service facility willing to accept service or repair under this
    section.
    (3) Replace the nonconforming goods with goods that are identical
    or reasonably equivalent to the warranted goods.
    (4) Refund to the buyer the original purchase price less that
    amount directly attributable to use by the buyer prior to the
    discovery of the nonconformity.
    (b) Return the nonconforming consumer goods to any retail seller
    of like goods of the same manufacturer within this state who may do
    one of the following:
    (1) Service or repair the nonconforming goods to conform to the
    applicable warranty.
    (2) Direct the buyer to a reasonably close independent repair or
    service facility willing to accept service or repair under this
    section.
    (3) Replace the nonconforming goods with goods that are identical
    or reasonably equivalent to the warranted goods.
    (4) Refund to the buyer the original purchase price less that
    amount directly attributable to use by the buyer prior to the
    discovery of the nonconformity.
    (c) Secure the services of an independent repair or service
    facility for the service or repair of the nonconforming consumer
    goods, when service or repair of the goods can be economically
    accomplished. In that event the manufacturer shall be liable to the
    buyer, or to the independent repair or service facility upon an
    assignment of the buyer's rights, for the actual and reasonable cost
    of service and repair, including any cost for parts and any
    reasonable cost of transporting the goods or parts, plus a reasonable
    profit. It shall be a rebuttable presumption affecting the burden
    of producing evidence that the reasonable cost of service or repair
    is an amount equal to that which is charged by the independent
    service dealer for like services or repairs rendered to service or
    repair customers who are not entitled to warranty protection. Any
    waiver of the liability of a manufacturer shall be void and
    unenforceable.
    The course of action prescribed in this subdivision shall be
    available to the buyer only after the buyer has followed the course
    of action prescribed in either subdivision (a) or (b) and such course
    of action has not furnished the buyer with appropriate relief. In
    no event, shall the provisions of this subdivision be available to
    the buyer with regard to consumer goods with a wholesale price to the
    retailer of less than fifty dollars ($50). In no event shall the
    buyer be responsible or liable for service or repair costs charged by
    the independent repair or service facility which accepts service or
    repair of nonconforming consumer goods under this section. Such
    independent repair or service facility shall only be authorized to
    hold the manufacturer liable for such costs.
    (d) A retail seller to which any nonconforming consumer good is
    returned pursuant to subdivision (a) or (b) shall have the option of
    providing service or repair itself or directing the buyer to a
    reasonably close independent repair or service facility willing to
    accept service or repair under this section. In the event the retail
    seller directs the buyer to an independent repair or service
    facility, the manufacturer shall be liable for the reasonable cost of
    repair services in the manner provided in subdivision (c).
    (e) In the event a buyer is unable to return nonconforming goods
    to the retailer due to reasons of size and weight, or method of
    attachment, or method of installation, or nature of the
    nonconformity, the buyer shall give notice of the nonconformity to
    the retailer. Upon receipt of such notice of nonconformity the
    retailer shall, at its option, service or repair the goods at the
    buyer's residence, or pick up the goods for service or repair, or
    arrange for transporting the goods to its place of business. The
    reasonable costs of transporting the goods shall be at the retailer'
    s expense. The retailer shall be entitled to recover all such
    reasonable costs of transportation from the manufacturer pursuant to
    Section 1793.5. The reasonable costs of transporting nonconforming
    goods after delivery to the retailer until return of the goods to the
    buyer, when incurred by a retailer, shall be recoverable from the
    manufacturer pursuant to Section 1793.5. Written notice of
    nonconformity to the retailer shall constitute return of the goods
    for the purposes of subdivisions (a) and (b).

  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slack
    Here's some more info for you guys...

    Sec. 2304. Federal minimum standards for warranties
    Yeah, and he was DEFINITELY in voilation of several of those statutes.

    Interestingly (just like when we called him out on the passages from Mountain Biking that he modified) there is a "new" proposed 2004 warrenty.

    Those statutes above make it pretty clear though, and he'll have to go back and modify the existing warrentys too. At least now ellsworth owners can point out the exact federal statutes and threaten him with it if necessary.

  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    That was some great research, slack.

    I would like to see Tony, as well as his defenders answer to those statutes.

    What about the CPSC? Wouldn't the CPSC have issued recalls in which they would have to replace bikes free of charge anyway? Seems kind of like a shield, offering to send the bike back first, then assessing the charges. No evidence, nothing to send to the CPSC for review.
    What is amazing is the new "proposed" 2004 warrenty on his website. It seems to finally fall within the context of the above, but the shocking part is that it simply proves he was a liar and the scum of the industry trying to pass this crap onto the customers and make them pay. He could have bailed himself out a long time ago, but to be outside the law for so long and just raping the customers untill called on it......it is sickening.

    Despite what people might think, I think these threads are FOR the ellsworth people out there, so now you can quote federal law when your "lifetime warrenty" frame breaks, and by legal constraints he SHOULD have to warrenty all the bikes that were sold with the "lifetime warrenty". If he doesn't he is outside the law again, but at least the customer knows the laws now.

  107. #107
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    (Never mind I just noticed this is a draft. Excuse my comments since I can't delete the post)

    I just read his updated warranty...

    Holy cow, this is drastically different than his previous warranty. I really wish I had saved the older .pdf(s) to compare.

    Question:
    -Is this a proposal or has he actually changed his production warranties???
    -How does this affect bikes in service, in stock, and on order?
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  108. #108
    Jm.
    Jm. is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    (Never mind I just noticed this is a draft. Excuse my comments since I can't delete the post)

    I just read his updated warranty...

    Holy cow, this is drastically different than his previous warranty. I really wish I had saved the older .pdf(s) to compare.

    Question:
    -Is this a proposal or has he actually changed his production warranties???
    -How does this affect bikes in service, in stock, and on order?
    How can he change the warrenties that he's already sold though? I don't think that is possible, only that he can live up to the "lifetime warrenty" that he sold it as, but he has to change his methods and offer the replacements at no cost, to be legal, but he can't just rescind the warrenty, I really doubt that is legal.

  109. #109

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    The 2004 warranty is re-worded on the website.

    2 years warranty, 30 days on the alaignment, and so on. Great read. Boards like this are great. What a difference. As it is written, it is way better for all involved imo.

  110. #110
    blame me for missed rides
    Reputation: weather's Avatar
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    ... and if we just ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    (Never mind I just noticed this is a draft. Excuse my comments since I can't delete the post)

    I just read his updated warranty...

    Holy cow, this is drastically different than his previous warranty. I really wish I had saved the older .pdf(s) to compare.

    Question:
    -Is this a proposal or has he actually changed his production warranties???
    -How does this affect bikes in service, in stock, and on order?
    someone needs to make a time line, showing, on one side, the progress of this discussion; on the other, the ellsworth warranty at corresponding time/date.

  111. #111
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    Wow.......Has anyone else noticed that Oskolo sounds a lot like TE?????
    Where's he been since the posting of the written law???
    ...So now, does EVERYONE who was "Charged" for their warranty work get a refund???

  112. #112
    Rolling
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    Congrats Tony

    The top two threads in the general discussion are now are Ellsworth Warranty related.

    WOW!

    I wonder if "there is no such thing as bad publicity" still holds?

  113. #113
    Rolling
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    Ignore.

    I guess it was the Q for tony thread.

    Where is the delete button anyway!

  114. #114
    sock puppet
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    nope, even i can still post...

    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    I guess it was the Q for tony thread.

    Where is the delete button anyway!
    not that i really want to...

  115. #115
    sock puppet
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    hey, my life is so empty

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    TESTING...I wonder if this is still open...

    Nice...it is...Maybe after a while things will cool down and some developments will bring about the issues in a more constructive manner.
    without you being a part of it. care to argue about something. anything?

    ;-P

  116. #116
    Perpetually single track
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    Way to bring it back to the top Rich...And I thought you liked Ells....
    Funny Avatar btw...

  117. #117

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    I think this is a great day for a topic like this.

    How about it, lidarman?

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