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  1. #1
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    Boutique bike company expectations

    I had an experience today with a boutique bike brand that left me highly disappointed in them. Obviously, I have my initial opinion on it, but after thinking a bit more, I thought I would see what others' opinions are on the matter.

    I just purchased a new frame from a company that allows direct to consumer purchases. I'm swapping parts from an old bike and found out that the derailleur hanger that came with the frame does not work with the Shimano XT 12sp derailleur. I chatted with the company they told me that they have an updated hanger on the site and if I ordered that one, then it will work with XT 12sp and is backwards compatible. However, they told me that the frame they just sold me does not come with the new hanger. OK, so that sucks, I have a bike halfway built that isn't going to work without the updated hanger. I ask if they will send me an updated one. Their response was, ďOur policy is not to send them to customers. Itís really Shimano that should be sending them out since they created a product that doesnít work with existing parts."

    Is it reasonable to expect a new frame to ship with the updated hanger? Shimano XT released 12 months ago. My opinion is that this is a low cost item, but a frame-specific one that is critical for the working of the frame and they should have included the updated hanger. If this had been shortly after release and they didn't have one designed and in general
    availability already, I could see them taking this stance, but a year later seems a bit much to me.

    For those wondering, I deliberately didn't name the company. If it turns out public opinion is that I'm being an overly presumptive PITA, I didn't want to have this on their rep.

  2. #2
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    So they have the hanger but won't ship you one? Am I understanding this correctly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    So they have the hanger but won't ship you one? Am I understanding this correctly?

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    Almost correct. They'll sell me one and ship it to me. What they wrote is a bit misleading. My question is whether the updated one should have been included from the beginning.

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    Is it a boutique company, or just a consumer-direct (or genuinely both?)? The reason I ask is that companies like YT ain't "boutique" makers, that's reserved for companies like Yeti, Pivot, Intense, Ibis, etc. Some of these boutique makers have branched out in recent years, offering consumer-direct purchasing, like Intense, but just because a company is one doesn't necessarily mean they are the other IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Is it a boutique company, or just a consumer-direct (or genuinely both?)? The reason I ask is that companies like YT ain't "boutique" makers, that's reserved for companies like Yeti, Pivot, Intense, Ibis, etc. Some of these boutique makers have branched out in recent years, offering consumer-direct purchasing, like Intense, but just because a company is one doesn't necessarily mean they are the other IMO.
    I'm not sure the exact distinction you are making. If you're drawing the line at whether it's a dirt cheap or direct-only model brand, then it's not one. This is a high-quality brand with direct and dealer model. A frame price is similar to the other brands you've name outside of Yeti charges a premium to most other companies.

  6. #6
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    They should include the hanger

    Whatever the cost is to produce it, the company will lose even more once their name comes out and a few people pass on buying one because the company is being cheap.

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    For the cost of a mech hanger, I would just buy it and not lose any sleep/time over it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrallen View Post
    I had an experience today with a boutique bike brand that left me highly disappointed in them. Obviously, I have my initial opinion on it, but after thinking a bit more, I thought I would see what others' opinions are on the matter.

    I just purchased a new frame from a company that allows direct to consumer purchases. I'm swapping parts from an old bike and found out that the derailleur hanger that came with the frame does not work with the Shimano XT 12sp derailleur. I chatted with the company they told me that they have an updated hanger on the site and if I ordered that one, then it will work with XT 12sp and is backwards compatible. However, they told me that the frame they just sold me does not come with the new hanger. OK, so that sucks, I have a bike halfway built that isn't going to work without the updated hanger. I ask if they will send me an updated one. Their response was, ďOur policy is not to send them to customers. Itís really Shimano that should be sending them out since they created a product that doesnít work with existing parts."

    Is it reasonable to expect a new frame to ship with the updated hanger? Shimano XT released 12 months ago. My opinion is that this is a low cost item, but a frame-specific one that is critical for the working of the frame and they should have included the updated hanger. If this had been shortly after release and they didn't have one designed and in general
    availability already, I could see them taking this stance, but a year later seems a bit much to me.

    For those wondering, I deliberately didn't name the company. If it turns out public opinion is that I'm being an overly presumptive PITA, I didn't want to have this on their rep.
    Sometimes the low-energy route is the best. Hangers aren't expensive, order the appropriate one and be done with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Howard View Post
    For the cost of a mech hanger, I would just buy it and not lose any sleep/time over it.
    Oh, I did without hesitation. The flip side of that argument is that for the cost of a hanger to the company, it's literally nothing for them to include. It seems an odd choice for them to me.

  10. #10
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    My take on this is that the manufacturer has a boatload of old mech hangers in stock and getting rid of them by sending the new bikes with them, passing the cost to the new owners instead of shipping the frames with the new ones. They know about the incompatibility because they already have the new hanger, they know that the new owner, in this case the OP, was probably getting either SRAM or Shimano 12s and they didn't care. In my 0.02Ä that's a *brown* move.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    Sometimes the low-energy route is the best. Hangers aren't expensive, order the appropriate one and be done with it.
    Agreed. It's not worth your time and energy debating on the ethics of the situation.
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  12. #12
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    Not sure about the different hanger that is needed for Shimano 12 spd. But I can see that if the stock hanger works on everything but Shimano 12 spd, that the one that works for Shimano 12 spd should be optional and there should be a charge for it. I see everyone banging on Sram, but if a different hanger is needed on your bike, I assume that every bike would need a different hanger, am I wrong? if so, this is the stupidest move by any components maker.
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    Just to clarify, are you looking for the direct mount hanger or the normal mount hanger?

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    Iím surprised they did not just send you one once they were aware that you needed it. To me, itís cheap and it customer service. If it was my company, I would have send one next day air to make you happy. Brands that donít go the extra mile for their customers should be revealed so guys like me donít give them my money.

  15. #15
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    I wouldn't expect the company to include the proprietary hanger with all of their frames (because if you use SRAM then you'd just throw away that oddball XT hanger) but it would've been nice to have it as a selection at the same cost when you purchased your frame. Since you bought your bike with a hanger that's compatible with every other derailleur except the one oddball that you want to use then you should just pay up.

  16. #16
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    to me, "boutique" implies custom built frames that are designed, welded, painted, etc specifically for each individual customer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the-one1 View Post
    Just to clarify, are you looking for the direct mount hanger or the normal mount hanger?
    Normal hanger. The new design works with all component manufacturers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karmatp View Post
    Iím surprised they did not just send you one once they were aware that you needed it. To me, itís cheap and it customer service. If it was my company, I would have send one next day air to make you happy. Brands that donít go the extra mile for their customers should be revealed so guys like me donít give them my money.
    That would have been how I handled it for one of my customers. However, knowing that it is a potential issue, I would have just included the new hanger in the first place to avoid the issue and marked it as V2. Customer then has a back up hanger if they use SRAM or at not just sitting there unable to build a bike trying to figure out why their components don't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I wouldn't expect the company to include the proprietary hanger with all of their frames (because if you use SRAM then you'd just throw away that oddball XT hanger) but it would've been nice to have it as a selection at the same cost when you purchased your frame. Since you bought your bike with a hanger that's compatible with every other derailleur except the one oddball that you want to use then you should just pay up.
    Aren't all hangers proprietary? They've always been specific to a frame as far as I know. Smart OEMs reuse their hanger design across their frames, but you're not buying a Specialized hanger for a Trek. If this was a one off hanger that only worked with Shimano 12sp, I could potentially agree with you that it is up to the customer to purchase. In that case, I would expect it to be an option when making a purchase as you suggested and not something a customer has to find out later through an internet search. If that option had existed I would have done that.

    In this case, it's not a hanger specific only to Shimano though. They simply updated the hanger so it works with Shimano along with everyone else. And, I did pay up. The time to figure it out and order and ship a new one is way more valuable to me than the $35 in parts and shipping to get a new one.

    Mostly, I'm disappointed in the brand's approach on this topic as someone that has spent their career dealing with difficult customer situations. I'll contrast this approach with Smith. A friend has a 4 year old Smith helmet, reaches out asking to buy a pad kit and visor for it since he can't find them anywhere. Smith sent him a coupon to purchase a brand new one at no cost. Personally that is way over the top, but I also guarantee that my friend will never buy a helmet from someone besides Smith again.

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    @mack_turtle Under your definition, they would not be boutique then.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrallen View Post

    Aren't all hangers proprietary? They've always been specific to a frame as far as I know. Smart OEMs reuse their hanger design across their frames, but you're not buying a Specialized hanger for a Trek. If this was a one off hanger that only worked with Shimano 12sp, I could potentially agree with you that it is up to the customer to purchase. In that case, I would expect it to be an option when making a purchase as you suggested and not something a customer has to find out later through an internet search. If that option had existed I would have done that.

    In this case, it's not a hanger specific only to Shimano though. They simply updated the hanger so it works with Shimano along with everyone else. And, I did pay up. The time to figure it out and order and ship a new one is way more valuable to me than the $35 in parts and shipping to get a new one.

    Mostly, I'm disappointed in the brand's approach on this topic as someone that has spent their career dealing with difficult customer situations. I'll contrast this approach with Smith. A friend has a 4 year old Smith helmet, reaches out asking to buy a pad kit and visor for it since he can't find them anywhere. Smith sent him a coupon to purchase a brand new one at no cost. Personally that is way over the top, but I also guarantee that my friend will never buy a helmet from someone besides Smith again.
    Okay Karen, you're the one who said that your derailleur only works with their special hanger. Don't ask if you don't want to hear the answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    My take on this is that the manufacturer has a boatload of old mech hangers in stock and getting rid of them by sending the new bikes with them, passing the cost to the new owners instead of shipping the frames with the new ones. They know about the incompatibility because they already have the new hanger, they know that the new owner, in this case the OP, was probably getting either SRAM or Shimano 12s and they didn't care. In my 0.02Ä that's a *brown* move.
    My real belief is that this is probably a kitting issue where the old hangers are already with frames in inventory. Rather than go through the hassle of separating out the old hangers, I would just include a new one when a frame is sold. Customers using SRAM get a spare. As a matter of fact, I'm sure that every Santa Cruz frame I purchased came with a spare hanger.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    to me, "boutique" implies custom built frames that are designed, welded, painted, etc specifically for each individual customer.
    I'd call that "custom" rather than boutique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Okay Karen, you're the one who said that your derailleur only works with their special hanger. Don't ask if you don't want to hear the answer.
    Karen?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrallen View Post
    Karen?
    Yeah, KAREN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Yeah, KAREN.
    Apparently, I have no idea what you're referring to with that. And, I did want your answer. I didn't dismiss it. I just clarified the part about the hanger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the-one1 View Post
    Just to clarify, are you looking for the direct mount hanger or the normal mount hanger?
    That was my thought as well. In which case I would say it was up to both parties to discuss the components being used prior to ordering the frame so that the appropriate mech hanger was provided. If that wasn't discussed, then I think the company sending the hanger they had was fine and it is just the cost of ordering up a new one that we all have to deal with anyway.
    Silly bike things happening.

  26. #26
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    Personally, it would leave a pretty sour taste in my mouth. Just wait until you have a real problem, would be my next thought. All over a derailleur hanger for a new bike. I'd of expected a no questions asked resolution.... "it's in the mail today. sorry for the inconvenience. enjoy your new bike".

    Customer service is not equal across all brands.

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    I feel like thereís some information missing here. As far as I can tell, Shimano 12 speed derailleurs bolt right up to any old derailleur hanger. Iíve never heard of needing a special Shimano 12 speed hanger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redlands R&C View Post
    That was my thought as well. In which case I would say it was up to both parties to discuss the components being used prior to ordering the frame so that the appropriate mech hanger was provided. If that wasn't discussed, then I think the company sending the hanger they had was fine and it is just the cost of ordering up a new one that we all have to deal with anyway.
    It's just a normal hanger. I appreciate you providing your opinion though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith View Post
    I feel like thereís some information missing here. As far as I can tell, Shimano 12 speed derailleurs bolt right up to any old derailleur hanger. Iíve never heard of needing a special Shimano 12 speed hanger.
    There was an issue with this frame and the original hanger apparently which did not allow you to set the b limit screw correctly. It's clearly an issue the company knew, understood and designed a new hanger to fix the issue, so the problem is real. I did not research beyond this particular frame to know if this happens on other frames from the same brand.

    If we removed the fact that it is a hanger and just say that the company had to implement a very low cost (less than $10) change to a critical component to support components that about 50% of their customer base is likely to use, should that running change be considered necessary and included with the product?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith View Post
    I feel like thereís some information missing here. As far as I can tell, Shimano 12 speed derailleurs bolt right up to any old derailleur hanger. Iíve never heard of needing a special Shimano 12 speed hanger.
    This. The only issue I was aware of is with Shimano direct mount, which even Shimano no longer support.

    If it were a common issue there would be dozens of threads asking which was required and if they were interchangeable. But there aren't.

    Would you expect them to send you a free one if you changed from one mech brand to the another, part way thorugh ownership?

    To me, its one of those thngs that nice to have, but not something id be bothered by if it wasnt offered. Only ever had a spare mech hanger come with a frame once, in 20 years (a Pivot), had to pay for all the others, on plenty of expensive frames.

  31. #31
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    If you buy NOS, then you bought NOS. The expectations for both seller and buyer are that its new-old-stock. The onus is on the buyer to understand the product may be out of date and not current. The seller is not responsible to make the frame compatible.

    If its a new 2020 model and you had the compatibility discussion prior to the sale, then the seller should make it right.

    IMO-this does not sound like you are working with a boutique bicycle manufacturer. My experience is limited to 17+ years riding several different Ventana mtb's. There's no way Sherwood and Teresa would let this detail slip.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Howard View Post
    If it were a common issue there would be dozens of threads asking which was required and if they were interchangeable. But there aren't.

    Would you expect them to send you a free one if you changed from one mech brand to the another, part way thorugh ownership?
    Actually I completely agree on your point about changing once I owned the bike. I would never expect it to be just sent. On a brand new frame, I expect it. Clearly, this is up for debate.

    As to finding it on threads, that is actually how I figured out the issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bingemtbr View Post
    If you buy NOS, then you bought NOS. The expectations for both seller and buyer are that its new-old-stock. The onus is on the buyer to understand the product may be out of date and not current. The seller is not responsible to make the frame compatible.

    If its a new 2020 model and you had the compatibility discussion prior to the sale, then the seller should make it right.

    IMO-this does not sound like you are working with a boutique bicycle manufacturer. My experience is limited to 17+ years riding several different Ventana mtb's. There's no way Sherwood and Teresa would let this detail slip.
    Good point. NOS you get what you get. This isn't NOS. It is a current frame. Something I didn't include was that they don't expect to send the new hanger out with new bikes/frames until this August.

  34. #34
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    The company employees need to read the business book "Give 'em the pickle". It's about a man who frequented a restaurant often and always asked for a pickle on the side which they would give him. After three years of doing this one day a server told him she would have to charge him five cents for the pickle, likely in an attempt to maximize revenue. He vowed to never return to that restaurant again and wrote a letter to management. The premise is that you of course always give them the pickle for free if they ask for it. The man is spending hundreds of dollars on meals throughout the year (or thousands on a bike) and he just wants a free pickle (derailleur hangar). Give 'em the dang pickle!

  35. #35
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    I agree they should've included it, quite obviously imo.
    Sounds like they're taking their frustrations with a changing standard out on the consumer of their own product. Good luck with that strategy, I say you just name them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrallen View Post
    Good point. NOS you get what you get. This isn't NOS. It is a current frame. Something I didn't include was that they don't expect to send the new hanger out with new bikes/frames until this August.
    I think it's absurd that a 2020 frame won't take Shimano 12-speed without a new hangar.
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    I am with the OP. I think at the minimum they should have put it in writing that the frame currently ships with an incompatible hanger if using shimano 12sp considering many customers will be building it up with that. It would be minimal effort to throw in that updated hanger with the frame. Even if you run sram you would get an extra hanger.

    A great example is santa cruz who not only provides a hanger for two different chainstay positions, they give you an extra of each as well. Each frame ships with 4 hangers total.

    Their customer service rep sounds pretty ignorant saying shimano should be the one to send it out. As far as I know shimano bolts right onto most modern frames no issue, if this frame has issues, the company is dumb to not make sure they address that and get that fix out preemptively. This current method will only make shimano guys upset when their bike doesnít build up correctly and then they have to fork out some extra dollars.


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    Quote Originally Posted by manpurse View Post
    The company employees need to read the business book "Give 'em the pickle". It's about a man who frequented a restaurant often and always asked for a pickle on the side which they would give him. After three years of doing this one day a server told him she would have to charge him five cents for the pickle, likely in an attempt to maximize revenue. He vowed to never return to that restaurant again and wrote a letter to management. The premise is that you of course always give them the pickle for free if they ask for it. The man is spending hundreds of dollars on meals throughout the year (or thousands on a bike) and he just wants a free pickle (derailleur hangar). Give 'em the dang pickle!
    I'm going to have steal "Give 'em the dang pickle!". Classic.

    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    I agree they should've included it, quite obviously imo.
    Sounds like they're taking their frustrations with a changing standard out on the consumer of their own product. Good luck with that strategy, I say you just name them.
    That was kind of my take as well. They've been good to work with in the past, so I don't want to name them based on one poor interaction over a small item. I more just wanted to hear others' opinion on what customer expectations should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    I think it's absurd that a 2020 frame won't take Shimano 12-speed without a new hangar.
    To be fair to them, it seems like it's just a minor issue with the original hanger that doesn't provide the clearance needed get the b limit set correctly. I do feel like I would own the solution in their place and just provide the new version of the hanger with every bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by austink26 View Post
    I am with the OP. I think at the minimum they should have put it in writing that the frame currently ships with an incompatible hanger if using shimano 12sp considering many customers will be building it up with that. It would be minimal effort to throw in that updated hanger with the frame. Even if you run sram you would get an extra hanger.

    A great example is santa cruz who not only provides a hanger for two different chainstay positions, they give you an extra of each as well. Each frame ships with 4 hangers total.

    Their customer service rep sounds pretty ignorant saying shimano should be the one to send it out. As far as I know shimano bolts right onto most modern frames no issue, if this frame has issues, the company is dumb to not make sure they address that and get that fix out preemptively. This current method will only make shimano guys upset when their bike doesnít build up correctly and then they have to fork out some extra dollars.
    I think SC has nailed it with their approach the business. You never really hear anyone say anything negative about their approach to customers. Not every smaller company can afford to act to quite that high a standard I'm sure, but it's something to aspire to if possible.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrallen View Post
    I think SC has nailed it with their approach the business. You never really hear anyone say anything negative about their approach to customers. Not every smaller company can afford to act to quite that high a standard I'm sure, but it's something to aspire to if possible.
    Santa Cruz is pricey but speaking in general terms, for that price you get top notch product combined with customer service and you get customers who are willing to pay the extra money for that. I work with some very very wealthy customers in the exotic car industry. Customer service is almost always one of their highest priorities and price is much lower. Similarly with Santa Cruz or other boutique brands the customer expects to pay more in exchange for quality product and customer service.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    to me, "boutique" implies custom built frames that are designed, welded, painted, etc specifically for each individual customer.
    This. Plastic China bikes aren't boutique, and order two hangers while you have your card out.
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by manpurse View Post
    The company employees need to read the business book "Give 'em the pickle". It's about a man who frequented a restaurant often and always asked for a pickle on the side which they would give him. After three years of doing this one day a server told him she would have to charge him five cents for the pickle, likely in an attempt to maximize revenue. He vowed to never return to that restaurant again and wrote a letter to management. The premise is that you of course always give them the pickle for free if they ask for it. The man is spending hundreds of dollars on meals throughout the year (or thousands on a bike) and he just wants a free pickle (derailleur hangar). Give 'em the dang pickle!
    That really depends on if you'll make up and exceed that revenue by charging the other customers the extra 5c for the pickle.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrallen View Post
    Apparently, I have no idea what you're referring to with that. And, I did want your answer. I didn't dismiss it. I just clarified the part about the hanger.
    You were able to buy a boutique bike. You were able to buy (at nominal cost) a hanger that allows you to use an old component that is incompatible. You're still dissatisfied. Next step is demanding to talk to the manager.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by manpurse View Post
    Santa Cruz is pricey but speaking in general terms, for that price you get top notch product combined with customer service and you get customers who are willing to pay the extra money for that. I work with some very very wealthy customers in the exotic car industry. Customer service is almost always one of their highest priorities and price is much lower. Similarly with Santa Cruz or other boutique brands the customer expects to pay more in exchange for quality product and customer service.
    Yup. I knew full well that my 5010 was didn't have great components for the money (also knew I was going to swap everything out anyways), but I was ok with that knowing SC has some of the best CS in the industry. Anytime I've emailed them, they've been helpful and quick to respond. Sent me a new hanger for free after I realized I didn't get an extra originally.
    2019 Santa Cruz 5010 Carbon C. R Build, in Purple.
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    You were able to buy a boutique bike. You were able to buy (at nominal cost) a hanger that allows you to use an old component that is incompatible. You're still dissatisfied. Next step is demanding to talk to the manager.
    Old component? He is trying to use 12sp xt. I would expect any modern bike to come ready to run that.

    I really donít see this as a karen moment. The company is going to have over a year lapse from when a very popular groupset came out to when they actually ship frames out that support them out of the box. All without mentioning it up front. Especially when the issue with shimano compatibility seems to be unique to them. That doesnít make sense.


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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    You were able to buy a boutique bike. You were able to buy (at nominal cost) a hanger that allows you to use an old component that is incompatible. You're still dissatisfied. Next step is demanding to talk to the manager.
    haha... calling people names, and ranting on..... when you don't even comprehend the issue.... hilarious.

  47. #47
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    Transition bikes also designed a new hanger because of the exact same reason. New tech isn't always 100% backward compatible, I'm guessing Shimano did try to make it as compatible as they could, but some odd number of brands did have some incompatibility issues, it happens.
    Just don't ship new bikes with the old hanger when you already have a new hanger design that works with the old and the new components.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by d365 View Post
    haha... calling people names, and ranting on..... when you don't even comprehend the issue.... hilarious.
    Ha, true. Yeah, I'm all over the place this morning.

    Where the hell is my Depakote?

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrallen View Post
    Good point. NOS you get what you get. This isn't NOS. It is a current frame. Something I didn't include was that they don't expect to send the new hanger out with new bikes/frames until this August.
    Ouch. August. That stinks. I'd stick it to them -- request to return the frame for full refund. Then buy something else.

    I purchased a SantaCruz in December. They give you a lot of free stuff: extra der hangers, sticker/frame protection kits, very nice fabric bags for the wheels and a super awesome utility bag to use however (tools, parts, whatever).

    I also purchased 3 Wahoo KICKR's: one for me, the wife, and the son. All included different cassettes (10sp, 9sp, and 8sp). Wahoo covered all the costs for the cassettes even though they were Campy Veloce, Shimano Ultegra, and Shimano 105. Big cost differences on all of them.

    If it matters, the Wahoo's and the Santa Cruz were purchased at different LBS's. Both times the LBS and manufacturer offered excellent service.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by bingemtbr View Post
    Ouch. August. That stinks. I'd stick it to them -- request to return the frame for full refund. Then buy something else.

    I purchased a SantaCruz in December. They give you a lot of free stuff: extra der hangers, sticker/frame protection kits, very nice fabric bags for the wheels and a super awesome utility bag to use however (tools, parts, whatever).

    I also purchased 3 Wahoo KICKR's: one for me, the wife, and the son. All included different cassettes (10sp, 9sp, and 8sp). Wahoo covered all the costs for the cassettes even though they were Campy Veloce, Shimano Ultegra, and Shimano 105. Big cost differences on all of them.

    If it matters, the Wahoo's and the Santa Cruz were purchased at different LBS's. Both times the LBS and manufacturer offered excellent service.
    Thanks. I still think they are a good company, so I'll keep the frame. I just wanted to get a feel for what other people's reaction would be to the situations. Seems to fall more along the lines of what I was thinking than not, but it's definitely not unanimous.

    I've seen some ridiculous expectations over the years. One customer took apart one of our systems (which they weren't supposed to do), put it back together using the wrong screw that was way too long and then forced it into a hard drive ruining it. When I mentioned that they clearly used the wrong screw, the manager told me that he expected that our design should have allowed for that. OK. I had the team get a new drive and install it. I was just trying to see if everyone thought I was the manager...

  51. #51
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    Who wants to give Karen the dang pickle?

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott O View Post
    Who wants to give Karen the dang pickle?
    Never give the pickle to Karen. You'll regret it.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott O View Post
    Who wants to give Karen the dang pickle?
    I gave Karen the dang pickle. Now she won't stop asking for the dang pickle! Every [email protected] day! It's exhausting.
    . . . . . . . .

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    ... "boutique" makers, that's reserved for companies like Yeti, Pivot, Intense, Ibis, etc...
    If by boutique you mean not Trek or Spec, then I'd agree. Otherwise, I wound not qualify these brands as boutique.
    What, me worry?

  55. #55
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    A couple of brands I'd label "boutique" would be Antidote and Mondraker.

    https://antidotebikes.com/product/ca...UmbYZlhphAEddU

    https://www.mondraker.com/es/en/2020...foxy-carbon-rr

  56. #56
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    I will give Karen my dang pickle.

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  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    to me, "boutique" implies custom built frames that are designed, welded, painted, etc specifically for each individual customer.
    Boutique would be on par with Turner, Pivot and a host of others however, custom is WaltWorks, Quiring, Moonmen and a further host of others.

    Boutique are very nice, detail oriented and priced at the high end.
    Custom, you choose frame material, geometry, S&S couplers, sliding dropouts, belt drive breakaway etc..

    Back to topic...
    The OP should have been taken care of by Bike Company X as a courtesy, period. They already bent him over for a bike and should be there as good stewards of basic business to keep the word of mouth advertising done by the existing clientele front and center, since there is no other form of advertising that is remotely as effective.

    Sounds like a buncha tightwads getting greedy.
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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by BansheeRune View Post
    Boutique would be on par with Turner, Pivot and a host of others however, custom is WaltWorks, Quiring, Moonmen and a further host of others.

    Boutique are very nice, detail oriented and priced at the high end.
    Custom, you choose frame material, geometry, S&S couplers, sliding dropouts, belt drive breakaway etc..

    Back to topic...
    The OP should have been taken care of by Bike Company X as a courtesy, period. They already bent him over for a bike and should be there as good stewards of basic business to keep the word of mouth advertising done by the existing clientele front and center, since there is no other form of advertising that is remotely as effective.

    Sounds like a buncha tightwads getting greedy.
    I can buy a hanger for $20 and be done with it, but it should've been corrected at point of purchase. It's cheap goodwill and the correct thing would be sending the OP a text saying it's in the mail.
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    This is just me personally, but drivetrain component compatibility would be one of the very first things Iíd discuss, when ordering/purchasing a custom/boutique bike. Itís just as important as things like wheel size, tyre clearance, frame size, geometry, suspension travel etc etc. I think that youíre extremely lucky that the option is actually there, to be able to use what you never stated at the start. Rather than being stuck with something you canít use. Suck it up, chalk it up to experience. Theyíre not mind readers.

  60. #60
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    When you called them up they should've sent you the correct hanger. I can understand the company wanting to move old stock and keep costs down, but they knew about this issue and you weren't notified when purchasing the frame. This is not something I would remotely look for like boost spacing. This is a very obscure issue, which I have never heard of before this thread.

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    I dunno man. I have a perception that it's just harder to deal with boutique brands when something goes wrong unless they know you on a first name basis. Not saying my perception is right but I do know that large companies with excess cash have covered me beyond my expectations without me pushing very hard. With boutique companies, I even feel bad about asking because I know they are probably struggling to stay in business. So it's a catch 22. Do I support the little guy and swallow the costs to myself or support the big dudes who don't need my support?

  62. #62
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    Does Shimano even make derailleur hangers?
    =sParty
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  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Does Shimano even make derailleur hangers?
    =sParty
    Not to my knowledge, why?

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    I can buy a hanger for $20 and be done with it, but it should've been corrected at point of purchase. It's cheap goodwill and the correct thing would be sending the OP a text saying it's in the mail.
    Roger!

    Quote Originally Posted by hesitationpoint View Post
    I dunno man. I have a perception that it's just harder to deal with boutique brands when something goes wrong unless they know you on a first name basis. Not saying my perception is right but I do know that large companies with excess cash have covered me beyond my expectations without me pushing very hard. With boutique companies, I even feel bad about asking because I know they are probably struggling to stay in business. So it's a catch 22. Do I support the little guy and swallow the costs to myself or support the big dudes who don't need my support?
    When I had a grease zerk push out of my Turner, I spoke with Dave Turner, and in the mail a miracle was delivered in the form of a half dozen of the damn things however, Dave wants to take care of his clientele. Good folks do that and assholes do not.
    Get fAt, Stay fAt, Ride fAt
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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    Not to my knowledge, why?
    Because:
    Quote Originally Posted by mrallen View Post
    I ask if they will send me an updated {derailleur hanger}. Their response was, ďOur policy is not to send them to customers. Itís really Shimano that should be sending them out since they created a product that doesnít work with existing parts."
    I'm just curious why any bike company, booteek or not, would expect Shimano to send derailleur hangers out if Shimano doesn't make them.

    Derailleur hangers are proprietary. Look here. I'm amazed that any bike company that gives consideration to customer service would have offered such a ridiculous response.
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  66. #66
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    "Boutique" and "Customer direct" are two different things, and are sometimes, but not necessarily, mutually exclusive. One of the benefits of buying a "Boutique" bike is customer service. One of the ways a "Consumer direct" company saves money is by offering less customer service.

    If the same bike can be purchased directly or through a shop, then the shop takes on some of the responsibility for making things right. If purchased directly, then I would either expect the company to make it right, or I would expect the savings to be passed on to the customer.

    If you saved hundreds of dollars by buying a bike "Consumer direct," then $20ish for a derailleur hanger might be a small price to pay.

    Regardless, it is okay to name the company.
    MTBR used to be a community forum where we could help one another out. Others might run into this same problem, and the way a company handles itself is relevant to the decision to buy from said company.
    Is this where I write something witty?

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Because:

    I'm just curious why any bike company, booteek or not, would expect Shimano to send derailleur hangers out if Shimano doesn't make them.

    Derailleur hangers are proprietary. Look here. I'm amazed that any bike company that gives consideration to customer service would have offered such a ridiculous response.
    =sParty
    Yeah, that response makes me want the OP to name the brand. It's almost on the same level as the Niner and the binded seatpost, or the Pole and the collapsed rear triangle on the Pinkbike roundup.
    In truth they don't have to ship the frame with the new hanger, but it would be good costumer service to do so, or at least mail the OP one for free.
    If I was the OP I would just point them to this thread without naming them.

  68. #68
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    Yeah, this should have been addressed at the point of sale. If the manufacturer had to design a new hanger to work with Shimano 12spd, then it should be a clearly stated option at purchase that the buyer should be able to choose whatever hanger they need. That way you're not wasting parts. People wanting to run SRAM or anything else can use the old hanger until it's used up. People wanting to run 12spd Shimano can get the new one without being sent a hanger they can't use.

    It's like the companies who made frames for Shimano Direct Mount hangers exclusively in the past, who don't have a standard hanger even available for people to buy if they wanted to install a different drivetrain. There's a couple threads in the drivetrain forum from people wanting to do exactly that. One I remember in particular was one of the REI Co-Op frames. Another may have been a euro brand, but I don't remember which. But this is worse because this is all current model year stuff.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Because:

    I'm just curious why any bike company, booteek or not, would expect Shimano to send derailleur hangers out if Shimano doesn't make them.

    Derailleur hangers are proprietary. Look here. I'm amazed that any bike company that gives consideration to customer service would have offered such a ridiculous response.
    =sParty
    Sometimes you get lucky with a bike brand like Guerilla Gravity who specs a common Syntace hanger.
    Ripping trails and tipping ales

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