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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I suspect that the vast majority of actual riders are dragging around way more bike than they need for most of their riding in part because of perception that you need big bike for riding trails.
    That's true but 'need' shouldn't be the criteria. It should be whatever is ideal for your goals because for the biggest drop you hit there's probably some kid that can do it on a 20" bmx bike and however fast you are around your local singltrack there's someone that can do it faster on a less efficient bike. Unless you're a professional one could always argue that you don't 'need' that expensive carbon 29er because there's faster riders that could drop you with a cheap bike.

    Why is the default always about how fast you can get around the loop anyway? If someone is out there to have fun and trying and find stuff to jump then getting a carbon XC race bike seems like "more bike than they need".


    Also interesting to note is we have group rides on smoothish, but fun trails every tuesday evening. Most of us ride singlespeeds, but we allow all kinds. One guy has a SC Bronson for his mountain bike. He is fast on the descents, but a little, but always struggles on the climbs.
    I rode with a guy a few weeks ago. I didn't even know him, he just wanted me to show him around the trails. He was on a short travel FS XC bike. I couldn't keep up on the non-technical stuff. Yet, despite his claim that he "can handle pretty much anything" didn't make it through the rock garden and skipped the little downhill jump (~10 ft gap) where you land at the start of a berm (in the berm if you're brave). If it was a race around the loop, he would have beat me...so was I "overbiked"? I was the one riding a hardtail. He was just in better shape and I was the more skilled rider, even at climbing. Neither of us won any trophies though.

    If someone is out to have fun, doesn't care about XC racing and enjoys their bike then it just doesn't matter what some dude regaling stories of dropping people on smooth trails thinks is too much bike.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    I emailed Bike Mag. Here is part of the response:

    "As for why no hardtails in Bible, we don’t include them for the same reason we’ve stopped including XC and DH bikes. With so many bikes to cover and limited time to do it in, we choose to spend that time on the bikes that our surveys show will have the broadest appeal across the widest number of our readers. It’s that heartlessly pragmatic ‘needs-of-the-many’ argument in action."
    I tend to read between the lines here. Granted we didn't get the whole response but by that logic all hardtails are XC hardtails, and only "dirt roadies" ride them. I don't buy it. there's a whole 'nother segment to that market and it likely outnumbers full squish bikes in volume of sales. I'm speculating a bit here but you get the idea. It's more glamorous to read about a $6k carbon dream bike than a $1,200 Surly (ok, 2,500 with key upgrades) that RIPS trails and is just as fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    Sounds like a lot of people that don't like, read or pay for Bike Mag are upset that the people at Bike Mag are not devoting a significant portion of their time, effort and budget to reviewing the type of bikes that people who don't like, read or pay for magazine like to ride, and instead are concentrating their time, effort and budget on bikes that people who do like, read and pay for their magazine like to ride.
    Or is nobody reading it because it's uninteresting to read about so they only write articles that sell ads and that's what pays the freight?

    If I tried to sell you "This Rigid $1,200 stock Surly is more fun than your $5k trail bike" would you buy the mag? Well, probably yes because no magazine cover has ever said that, but only that one mag. You wouldn't subscribe because that article can only be written once. Just my thought.
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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    Hard tails are a niche these days. For budget riders, and weirdos. That said I plan to build on up soon.
    I'm definitely a weird, budget oriented niche rider.
    The member formerly known as Redtires....

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    My previous comment was off-base. Of course they want to showcase high-end bikes in magazines, even if most people can't afford them. This general disdain for hardtails from cycling media is still a mystery.
    I think of it this way: I'm (theoretically) in the market for a new hardtail. I want quality steel, adjustable dropouts, a threaded bottom bracket, and have zero interest in +/fat. I don't expect Bike to even be covering that sort of bike, so I'm not going to waste my time even checking their reviews to see if they did a 'Hardtail shoot-out". Those of us looking for that kind of bike know better than to consult (most) mags for useful reviews, so in a sense I don't blame them for not wasting their time on them.

    High quality hardtails worth writing about just don't have enough people interested in reading about them, sadly. In a way, that's the great thing about the internet - there might not be enough interest to support a mag writing noncommittal reviews, but there is enough passionate interest to get useful, real feedback (aka, reviews) directly from other cyclists.
    "When life gives you lemons...say f@%k it, and bail"

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post

    Why is the default always about how fast you can get around the loop anyway? If someone is out there to have fun and trying and find stuff to jump then getting a carbon XC race bike seems like "more bike than they need".


    If someone is out to have fun, doesn't care about XC racing and enjoys their bike then it just doesn't matter what some dude regaling stories of dropping people on smooth trails thinks is too much bike.
    For the most part, I agree with you. At the end of the day, it's about having fun and fast is not always everyone's goal.

    But one thing to consider is that for a lot of guys who ride local trails over and over, going fast becomes a way to keep the fun alive on a trail you've gone over multiple times. I'd say about 75% of the local guys in my area start to focus on Strava after a while because it keeps the challenge up on a trail that you would otherwise be bored on after riding it for the 200th time.

    Also, if you can go fast, that increases the circle of people you can go on group rides with. You can always slow down, but you can't always go faster.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    I am deciding between a Chromag Rootdown, NS Eccentric Cromo, and a Kona Honzo Steel. Looking for a low maintenance bike for slower conditions during Winter. Saving money on pivot hardware, and shock rebuilds is a big part, the other part is weirdodum.
    Look at a Ragley Big Wig if you want to build up from a frame. Super fun, inexpensive steel frame with tire clearance for days. Ripper with a 140 Fox 34!

    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    Supercool, but to pricey for what it is, plus 44mm head tube, WTF?
    I think they're fine. Hell, I've even used a -1.5* ZS44/EC44 with a 44mm head tube and a tapered fork.
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by hesitationpoint View Post
    For the most part, I agree with you. At the end of the day, it's about having fun and fast is not always everyone's goal.

    But one thing to consider is that for a lot of guys who ride local trails over and over, going fast becomes a way to keep the fun alive on a trail you've gone over multiple times. I'd say about 75% of the local guys in my area start to focus on Strava after a while because it keeps the challenge up on a trail that you would otherwise be bored on after riding it for the 200th time.

    Also, if you can go fast, that increases the circle of people you can go on group rides with. You can always slow down, but you can't always go faster.
    I agree, I see the value in being fast and even track my time on certain trails. My main trail is not a loop (more of a web) and there's more of a freeride slant than XC with more man-made features and technical terrain than surrounding trails (there's features here you'll never see in an XC race). If you want to go fast and keep up on group rides here, it'd probably be better (for most) to have a mid-travel trail bike than a hardtail XC bike, and it would certainly be more comfortable and enjoyable.

    Anyway, my point is people riding cross country trails on $6k bikes as a hobby talking shit about other riders having too much travel is absurd.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    I emailed Bike Mag. Here is part of the response:

    "As for why no hardtails in Bible, we don’t include them for the same reason we’ve stopped including XC and DH bikes. With so many bikes to cover and limited time to do it in, we choose to spend that time on the bikes that our surveys show will have the broadest appeal across the widest number of our readers. It’s that heartlessly pragmatic ‘needs-of-the-many’ argument in action."

    Fair enough. Their readers are interested in such bikes, so that's what goes in the mag. They don't have the space, the time, staff, or budget to cover everything, so they shoot down the middle. Dirt Rag and Freehub seem to have a different readership and therefor probably review different bikes.

    He went on to say that they plan to review some more hardtails this year.
    I used to get Bike Mag, but stopped. This one of reasons I stopped. While have little interest in DH bikes I have little interest in "gnar bro" scene where everyone measure each other by what sweet ass jump they just took and then bitch an moan about not being able to shuttle to the top of downhill. So Bike magazine is waste and this comment from them just solidifies that. I am considering a new bike, but nothing over 100mm of travel and something in XC camp.
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I used to get Bike Mag, but stopped. This one of reasons I stopped. While have little interest in DH bikes I have little interest in "gnar bro" scene where everyone measure each other by what sweet ass jump they just took and then bitch an moan about not being able to shuttle to the top of downhill. So Bike magazine is waste and this comment from them just solidifies that. I am considering a new bike, but nothing over 100mm of travel and something in XC camp.
    I am definitely with you and I tend to buy XC bikes they tend to be the most efficient bikes for 90% of singletracks in the midwest. Unfortunately, the gnar bro scene probably draws a lot more people into the sport than XC. I know when I first go into mountain biking, I just thought lycra on a mountain bike was ridiculous not to mention that it looks like crap to pretty much everyone who isn't a hardcore roady. If it wasn't for gnar bros, I probably would have never gotten into mountain biking because I had no interest in road riding. Now that I've done it for a couple years and gained experience, I'm really enjoying both descents and climbs so XC bikes are definitely my favorite. But I think the gnar bro scene is needed to keep the sport alive long term.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I used to get Bike Mag, but stopped. This one of reasons I stopped. While have little interest in DH bikes I have little interest in "gnar bro" scene where everyone measure each other by what sweet ass jump they just took and then bitch an moan about not being able to shuttle to the top of downhill. So Bike magazine is waste and this comment from them just solidifies that. I am considering a new bike, but nothing over 100mm of travel and something in XC camp.
    Interesting, I'm mainly a XC guy in New England, so not mid-west buff, but technical rocky XC. (I lived in southeast MI for a couple years, where rocks and tech features are as scarce as hen's teeth) The past few years I've become much more interested in jumps, drops and more aggressive riding. The "gnar-bros" I've met have all been very cool, very helpful and though a lot of them might not be XC fit, they are skilled riders. Haven't met the goons you describe as measuring each other and bitching about no lift access, but then again, I'll bet you haven't either.

  11. #111
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    It's all about the trail.

    Really, picking the right tool for the job.

    Different horses for different courses, as they say.


    The Bike Mag guys typically hold their testing grounds on trails that seem much more amenable to FS. Sure, you can ride those same trails on a HT but if you really want to rip the HT ain't the best tool.

  12. #112
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    I keep most of my old bikes. I have a fully rigid SS and a ht w/ racing geometry. I enjoy riding them a few times a year. A few benefits to having a stable:

    1. You always have a spare bike when your primary rig needs maintenance.
    2. You always have a spare to loan your bro-in-law or buddy visiting from out-of-town.
    3. Riding ht's and rigid ht's on your local trails will make you a better rider-you'll choose lines you normally wouldn't on your dualie.
    4. My ht's are not as costly as my dualie; which makes them great bikes to ride on pub crawls or around town.

    All that being said, to each their own. I'd be interested in a review of the current crop of hardtails regardless of their price.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    .. The "gnar-bros" I've met have all been very cool, very helpful and though a lot of them might not be XC fit, they are skilled riders. Haven't met the goons you describe as measuring each other and bitching about no lift access, but then again, I'll bet you haven't either.
    It is a exaggeration to be sure, but just like XC guys are lycra clad dirt roadies with no tech skills. I have met plenty of riders on big bikes that complain profusely about climbing. Even when I ride my trail bike I still see them. I like fun downhill too, but I feel climbs are the way to earn the downhill run. Mountain biking not just about hitting jumps, but about riding terrain. I am no enduro guy, but I did an enduro once and did reasonably well. Finished upper mid pack on my 5" trail bike. Day 1 had basicly shuttle to the top of the mountain and one medium climb. Day 2 started with a 7 mile 2000 foot climb on a dirt road. Boring, but not hard either when not timed. Just pick an easy gear and pedal up. We had 2 hours to climb it there were so many people complaining it was silly. Really guys had been climbing that mountain road since 1998. Just ride it and quit you bitching.

    Seems like these day many people shuttle that dirt road. Anyway I think every other picture in Bike Mag has rider in the air. The reality of riding is that 95% of riders stay on the ground or at most get a few inches of air. Most don't do 10' gap jumps. Sure it would be cool to do that, but even at only 43 years old recovering from a failed gap jump takes way too long. Risk vs reward is just not there for me to want to develop that level of skill. I do still ride techy stuff and don't mind pushing my limits here and there (that is why I did that Enduro race and cleaned 2 section of trail I never had in 20 years before), but event that is just part of my riding.
    Joe
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by bingemtbr View Post
    3. Riding ht's and rigid ht's on your local trails will make you a better rider-you'll choose lines you normally wouldn't on your dualie.
    I used to really believe this, but have moderated on the idea. Here is why.
    with HT or Rigid you do have to be very particular about lines that is true. The bad part of that is forces you want to ride around certain features that you probably should just fly over. When I ride my 5" trail bike I have learn how many trail features it will just ride over and how to jump off little rocks etc. Coming to grips with that and hitting stuff that would be very hard on my HT bikes has given me a new understanding of what trail features can be ridden. When jump back on the HT I see other lines I did not used to see. In some places that makes me fast and more efficient since I just pop the bike over things I used ride around. Even on very technical stuff I have more confidence from what I have pulled on my FS that I can do more even on the HT. So riding both has expanded my limits. Plus the more time I ride my heavy FS bike the more my 21.5lbs carbon HT feels like a rocket ship able to climb hills and techy stuff with ease. Of course some that feeling also comes from riding my Singlespeed too because going from 1 gear to 11 speeds feels like cheating.
    Joe
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  15. #115
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    You guys seem to see hardtail as xc race type bikes, but there is so much more to them than that. I can count the number of adult hardtails I've see on my local trails in the past year on my fingers (if you discount the the BC Bike Race). That said I'm jouncing for one, because they are cool, different, will save $ in shock rebuilds & pivots, and I have almost always had one. The UK media frequently review hard tails, and they seem popular their, I think because it is very wet, and hard on equipment. It's wet 1/2 the year here, and by spending a couple of grand on a HT, I can save a few hundred a year. Makes perfect sense
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    I emailed Bike Mag. Here is part of the response:

    "As for why no hardtails in Bible, we don’t include them for the same reason we’ve stopped including XC and DH bikes. With so many bikes to cover and limited time to do it in, we choose to spend that time on the bikes that our surveys show will have the broadest appeal across the widest number of our readers. It’s that heartlessly pragmatic ‘needs-of-the-many’ argument in action."

    Fair enough. Their readers are interested in such bikes, so that's what goes in the mag. They don't have the space, the time, staff, or budget to cover everything, so they shoot down the middle. Dirt Rag and Freehub seem to have a different readership and therefor probably review different bikes.

    He went on to say that they plan to review some more hardtails this year.
    Well here is the answer. I think the whole "conspiracy to sell expensive bikes to swoon advertisers" is ridiculous. Bike Mag (which is still a great publication) surveyed their readers and full suspension bikes are what their readers are looking to read about and its the "meat and potatoes" of the mountain bike world.

    Bike Mag still tests hardtails, its not like they're openly shunning them. The Bible of Bike Tests can only test a certain number of different bikes so they're going to test the bike that their readers want. Its the same ski when magazine do ski tests - they test skis that readers will buy and use everyday.
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    It is a exaggeration to be sure, but just like XC guys are lycra clad dirt roadies with no tech skills. I have met plenty of riders on big bikes that complain profusely about climbing. Even when I ride my trail bike I still see them. I like fun downhill too, but I feel climbs are the way to earn the downhill run. Mountain biking not just about hitting jumps, but about riding terrain. I am no enduro guy, but I did an enduro once and did reasonably well. Finished upper mid pack on my 5" trail bike. Day 1 had basicly shuttle to the top of the mountain and one medium climb. Day 2 started with a 7 mile 2000 foot climb on a dirt road. Boring, but not hard either when not timed. Just pick an easy gear and pedal up. We had 2 hours to climb it there were so many people complaining it was silly. Really guys had been climbing that mountain road since 1998. Just ride it and quit you bitching.

    Seems like these day many people shuttle that dirt road. Anyway I think every other picture in Bike Mag has rider in the air. The reality of riding is that 95% of riders stay on the ground or at most get a few inches of air. Most don't do 10' gap jumps. Sure it would be cool to do that, but even at only 43 years old recovering from a failed gap jump takes way too long. Risk vs reward is just not there for me to want to develop that level of skill. I do still ride techy stuff and don't mind pushing my limits here and there (that is why I did that Enduro race and cleaned 2 section of trail I never had in 20 years before), but event that is just part of my riding.
    How about let other people have fun the way they want to and don't worry that they are doing it "wrong"?

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    It is a exaggeration to be sure, but just like XC guys are lycra clad dirt roadies with no tech skills. I have met plenty of riders on big bikes that complain profusely about climbing. Even when I ride my trail bike I still see them. I like fun downhill too, but I feel climbs are the way to earn the downhill run. Mountain biking not just about hitting jumps, but about riding terrain. I am no enduro guy, but I did an enduro once and did reasonably well. Finished upper mid pack on my 5" trail bike. Day 1 had basicly shuttle to the top of the mountain and one medium climb. Day 2 started with a 7 mile 2000 foot climb on a dirt road. Boring, but not hard either when not timed. Just pick an easy gear and pedal up. We had 2 hours to climb it there were so many people complaining it was silly. Really guys had been climbing that mountain road since 1998. Just ride it and quit you bitching.

    Seems like these day many people shuttle that dirt road. Anyway I think every other picture in Bike Mag has rider in the air. The reality of riding is that 95% of riders stay on the ground or at most get a few inches of air. Most don't do 10' gap jumps. Sure it would be cool to do that, but even at only 43 years old recovering from a failed gap jump takes way too long. Risk vs reward is just not there for me to want to develop that level of skill. I do still ride techy stuff and don't mind pushing my limits here and there (that is why I did that Enduro race and cleaned 2 section of trail I never had in 20 years before), but event that is just part of my riding.
    Never met a 'gnar bro' this concerned with how and what other people ride.

  19. #119
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    Well, it turns out Bike doesn't hate hardtails. https://www.bikemag.com/gear/mountai...romag-surface/
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    Never met a 'gnar bro' this concerned with how and what other people ride.
    I have run in to many of these type wondering "You rode that on a HT?" .... I have no problem with people riding longer travel bikes. My complaint is the marketing teams are pushing longer travel bike hard when most riders simply won't need them. My friend who has Bronson is somewhat screwed. He struggles to keep up on his Bronson vs us on SS HT. The big reason is not his fitness, but the wrong tool for job. It impacts his fun in group ride since he barely keeping up. He would be much happier on a different bike. This not to say the Bronson is bad, but not right for trails we are riding. Not sure what caused him to get the Bronson in first place as he is not really big terrain guy. We are working to get him on SS 29HT. He test rode one and loved it and keep up just fine.

    Anyway if all you read is Bike Mag you will probably end up buying bike with too much travel and too much "gnar" for what you actually ride. If you are hitting big lines then by all means go big. Bike should try to help riders distinguish what bike work best at. Instead there is this marketing ploy that XC bikes be them 100mm bikes or HT are twichy and will kill you if you ride them down the equivalent of a bunny slope.
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  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    Well, it turns out Bike doesn't hate hardtails. https://www.bikemag.com/gear/mountai...romag-surface/
    I do like how they say a hardtail can still be fun.
    Joe
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  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    How about let other people have fun the way they want to and don't worry that they are doing it "wrong"?
    That makes good sense. Not sure it will fly around here though.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I do like how they say a hardtail can still be fun.
    I like how in order to refute the claim of this thread someone cited a single article that's 8 months old.
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  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    I like how in order to refute the claim of this thread someone cited a single article that's 8 months old.
    How about this one from December:

    https://www.bikemag.com/gear/mountai...kona-honzo-st/

  25. #125
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    Since this thread seems to be petering out I would like to confess that I did not know for 100% certainty what gnar bro meant, so I googled it. Is this correct?



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  26. #126
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    Not at all similar, but who know what happens under the baggies.


    "Gnar bro" is something i stated based on the guys that love to "Shred the gnar!" with all their "Bros". I think there is you tube spoof video on this so I don't think I created the term. I may have stolen and bastardized it.
    Joe
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  27. #127
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    Go to outdoor lab reviews and you will see most of their top rated bikes are dually's.

    I love my Trek Stache but they give it a 37 point rating (super low) compared to around 80 for their top rated bikes.

    If you want to get all butt hurt then read what "those really in the know" know!

    I have owned many full suspension bikes but don't like all the monkey business nor the way they feel.
    My question is given the ratings does that mean I would be twice as happy on a Yeti SB5 as my Stache?? If that is the case then given how much I like my Stache then I should definitely pick one of those Yeti's up!!

    Ya I like to read about bikes as much as the next guy or gal but I still wear lycra and like to put long miles in and do bikepacking. Somehow I feel me and the Yeti would not make good room mates.

    I know the bro crowd too and several of my friends fit the description. Fun to ride with them though and hear about all their dismounts and injuries!
    My brain went from "you probably shouldn't say that" to WTF!

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFarris View Post
    You mean that article that "was originally published in the Aug 2017 issue?"

    Regardless, I don't really care. I have no horse in this race. I just thought it was a funny rebuttal. So is yours.
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  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    I emailed Bike Mag. Here is part of the response:

    "As for why no hardtails in Bible, we don’t include them for the same reason we’ve stopped including XC and DH bikes. With so many bikes to cover and limited time to do it in, we choose to spend that time on the bikes that our surveys show will have the broadest appeal across the widest number of our readers. It’s that heartlessly pragmatic ‘needs-of-the-many’ argument in action."
    Hmmmmm.....maybe don't call it "The Bible" then. Calling it the Bible implies that it kinda covers everything.

    Hey, I stole my neighbors truck....and his wife, cuz you know, there just wasn't room in the Bible to write down ALL ten commandments, so they just printed the ones they thought most people wanted to follow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twd953 View Post
    Hmmmmm.....maybe don't call it "The Bible" then. Calling it the Bible implies that it kinda covers everything.

    Hey, I stole my neighbors truck....and his wife, cuz you know, there just wasn't room in the Bible to write down ALL ten commandments, so they just printed the ones they thought most people wanted to follow.
    If they printed the ones that most people wanted to follow they wouldn't print any of them!

    Pictures or it didn't happen!

    Kind of like this??

    Bike mag hates hardtails-dirty-truck-girls-love-flatbeds-266.jpg
    My brain went from "you probably shouldn't say that" to WTF!

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    After reading all of this I'm thinking of breaking out my GT hardtail. However at my age
    it might rattle out what teeth I have left.

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    Well, it turns out Bike doesn't hate hardtails. https://www.bikemag.com/gear/mountai...romag-surface/
    OK this is just stupid. If hardtails were fun in 2000 why would they not be fun now??? Was there a shift in the magnetic poles since then?? Some kind of quantum shift of reality?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kuhl View Post
    After reading all of this I'm thinking of breaking out my GT hardtail. However at my age
    it might rattle out what teeth I have left.
    That's what they used to say about rigid bikes then front forks came along. The rear shock is for your back. I wouldn't worry about your teeth on a hardtail

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I used to really believe this, but have moderated on the idea. Here is why.
    with HT or Rigid you do have to be very particular about lines that is true. The bad part of that is forces you want to ride around certain features that you probably should just fly over.
    In my opinion this more due to geometry than rear squish. With my current long-low-slack ht I soon found out that the safest way to clear hard sections was to ride over obstacles. The long geo keeps the bike stable through radical changes in pitch. That doesn't work at all with my older XC ht, it feels much more reasonable to go around stuff.

    Also, a hardtail with a dropper post can get down almost anything, not fast, but it will get you to the bottom.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by justwan naride View Post
    Also, a hardtail with a dropper post can get down almost anything, not fast, but it will get you to the bottom.
    Yeah, speed is the main issue. At some point you'll reach a speed where you can't keep the bike in contact with the ground enough to control it no matter what. Downhill rock gardens where it's impossible to stop and the bike starts skipping over rocks I planned to touch down on are where I feel I'm near the limit of my hardtail.

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    My hardtail definitely skips over roots and rocks more than my full suspension bike but I don't find that the rear end loosing grip is a huge issue. When the front end goes, it's over, but the rear end being a little loose really doesn't compromise control very much. The place where I don't want it to skip is on an uphill technical climb where you need all the traction you can get.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by hesitationpoint View Post
    My hardtail definitely skips over roots and rocks more than my full suspension bike but I don't find that the rear end loosing grip is a huge issue. When the front end goes, it's over, but the rear end being a little loose really doesn't compromise control very much. The place where I don't want it to skip is on an uphill technical climb where you need all the traction you can get.
    I'm talking about where the drop between rocks is about 18"+ and it's steep enough where braking isn't an option, not normal trail roots and rocks.

  37. #137
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    My Evil Calling is one of the funnest bikes I've ever had, but I still ride my old 26 hardtail once and a while it's always been a back up and riding hard tails is fun. I'm going to build up a GG Pedalhead .. It might really come down to just " the other part is weirdodum."
    Four wheels move my body Two wheels move my soul

  38. #138
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    hardtails are not mountain bikes

    maybe this has been beaten to death, but the Bike Mag has once again just left hardtails out of their Bible of Bike Tests. not even a token hardtail. I assume they know their demographic and I should go back to Old Fart on a Bike magazine aka Dirt Rag.

    whatever, I won't let it get to me. but I have to wonder what is it about this that bugs me - and many of you - as hardtail riders. do we feel left out of the "cool kid" group because we are not riding cool kid bikes? do we have suspension envy? I just always feel like we are at the kids' table at Thanksgiving (or whatever holiday brings extended family together for a meal where you live) and not taken seriously.

    there's always the "pah, who reads magazines anyways?" comment. obviously someone reads this stuff or they would not sell ads.

  39. #139
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    maybe I spoke too soon- we had this conversation a few months ago. I have a short memory. (moderator merged my new thread with the old thread on the same topic.)

    no e-mtbs, so we dodged a bullet for another year.

    I appreciate the other great journalism that comes out of Bike Mag though. If only reviewing dentist bikes is what pays their staff, bring it. I can ignore those and ride something they don't care about while they write solid stuff about the IMBA and trail access.
    Last edited by mack_turtle; 10-04-2018 at 01:39 PM.

  40. #140
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    Honestly my hardtail is my first choice when going out for a ride as I just find it so much more enjoyable. I also have a Transition Scout that I use time to time but if I could only keep one bike it would be my hardtail. Either way I'm just happy to be able to get out for a ride almost every day for a few hours regardless of which bike I am on.

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    I didn't read the OP or any posts...

    But I agree with the title and I'll add that trails that can be ridden on hardtails comfortably are not mountain bike trails.

  42. #142
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    I guess they didn't include any fatties in their bible either then? I still have 3 HT's in my quiver; one fatty, one SS, and my old racing HT. Only the racing HT has a suspension fork. Label me a 1%'er, weirdo I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bingemtbr View Post
    I guess they didn't include any fatties in their bible either then? I still have 3 HT's in my quiver; one fatty, one SS, and my old racing HT. Only the racing HT has a suspension fork. Label me a 1%'er, weirdo I guess.
    Either you're a glutton for punishment, or you don't ride trails I would find fun. I don't think that's an unfair characterization. (Though I am oversimplifying it for dramatic effect. )

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    I didn't read the OP or any posts...

    But I agree with the title and I'll add that trails that can be ridden on hardtails comfortably are not mountain bike trails.
    The trend towards flow trails over rough natural trails coinciding with the increasing percentage of riders on quality 140mm-160 FS bikes and/or plus tires does seem to show that comfort is many people's primary goal in mountain biking

    I must not be old enough or dentist enough for that yet because I prefer the rush of trying to get a hardtail down the roughest trails

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by boomn View Post
    The trend towards flow trails over rough natural trails coinciding with the increasing percentage of riders on quality 140mm-160 FS bikes and/or plus tires does seem to show that comfort is many people's primary goal in mountain biking

    I must not be old enough or dentist enough for that yet because I prefer the rush of trying to get a hardtail down the roughest trails
    Yep, the bikes get more capable yet the trails are being sanitized to wheelchair friendly status. What’s wrong with this picture? Seems if they’re going to make the bikes more capable [which is a natural thing] it would seem most would want the trails to reflect some kind of challenge for these super bikes?

    But that’s not the topic here so I’ll go back under your rock.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    Either you're a glutton for punishment, or you don't ride trails I would find fun. I don't think that's an unfair characterization. (Though I am oversimplifying it for dramatic effect. )
    I have done Downieville a number of times on my hardtail. Sometimes uncomfortable, but always fun. I have taken some friends along who rode 90s hardtail with v-brakes and you know what... they had lots of fun too.

    If mountain biking on hardtails wasn't fun, then the entire sport would have never taken off or survived

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Yep, the bikes get more capable yet the trails are being sanitized to wheelchair friendly status. What’s wrong with this picture? Seems if they’re going to make the bikes more capable [which is a natural thing] it would seem most would want the trails to reflect some kind of challenge for these super bikes?

    But that’s not the topic here so I’ll go back under your rock.
    Yep. Lots of folks around here want long travel bikes.......not because they think the trails are super gnarly but because "it's easier on my back" or "I can sit and pedal".

    It's for the same reasons people like Toyota Camrys over BMWs. A preference for road isolation rather than feeling the road.

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by boomn View Post
    The trend towards flow trails over rough natural trails coinciding with the increasing percentage of riders on quality 140mm-160 FS bikes and/or plus tires does seem to show that comfort is many people's primary goal in mountain biking

    I must not be old enough or dentist enough for that yet because I prefer the rush of trying to get a hardtail down the roughest trails
    Yep, I work at a shop and I often talk to guys who know they don't need 150mm for what they ride but say they just like the comfort. Not my style, I like 150mm because the trails I ride most guys are on 170-210mm, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

    I specifically worded it that way because any trail can be ridden on a hardtail and any trail can be fun on a hardtail... Comfortable not so much. You and I agree, you just don't know it.

    Quote Originally Posted by boomn View Post
    I have done Downieville a number of times on my hardtail. Sometimes uncomfortable, but always fun. I have taken some friends along who rode 90s hardtail with v-brakes and you know what... they had lots of fun too.

    If mountain biking on hardtails wasn't fun, then the entire sport would have never taken off or survived
    Uncomfortable is fun, I don't like rides that don't make me uncomfortable at least one... That said, I like rides that make me uncomfortable on my dentist bike - not that would make me uncomfortable on a hardtail.

    If my hypocritical position is making you uncomfortable, then you're reading it correctly.

  49. #149
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    The Dwayyo, why beat around the bush?Just come out and say what you really mean: "I'm gnarlier than you, faster than you, and just plain better than you!"

  50. #150
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    If I want to pedal seated and not feel too much rocks & roots , instead of buying a FS , I use my road bike on roads.



    Get off my yards , darn kidz !
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  51. #151
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  53. #153
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    My mountain biking pals all ride FS and I'm the only lunatic on a hardtail. I still keep up with them just fine. I honestly don't read magazines or online articles that much. I prefer to watch YouTube videos.
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  54. #154
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    They did a Trek HT a few years ago. They didn't really know what to make of it.

  55. #155
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    Speaking to Bike Mag specifically, I think this has a lot to do with where they ride and where they like to ride. They seem to mostly ride pretty seriously steep, rocky rugged terrain. Speaking for myself, I like the simplicity, the looks and the idea of a steel hardtail, but I prefer the ride of an efficient cross country-light trail full suspension.

  56. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    If I want to pedal seated and not feel too much rocks & roots , instead of buying a FS , I use my road bike on roads.



    Get off my yards , darn kidz !
    Yep, same here.
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  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Yep, the bikes get more capable yet the trails are being sanitized to wheelchair friendly status. What’s wrong with this picture? Seems if they’re going to make the bikes more capable [which is a natural thing] it would seem most would want the trails to reflect some kind of challenge for these super bikes?

    But that’s not the topic here so I’ll go back under your rock.
    You'd really like reading Mike Ferrentino's latest Grimy Handshake. He hits on this topic.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  58. #158
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    speaking of Grimy Handshake, that column is among the the last few interesting, enlightening things I read online from a bona fide bike magazine. I think I'll subscribe just so I can have something interesting in my mailbox once in a while instead of reading everything on a screen. I'll let them know that, as a paid subscriber, I want a damn hardtail once in a while.

  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    speaking of Grimy Handshake, that column is among the the last few interesting, enlightening things I read online from a bona fide bike magazine. I think I'll subscribe just so I can have something interesting in my mailbox once in a while instead of reading everything on a screen. I'll let them know that, as a paid subscriber, I want a damn hardtail once in a while.
    Ferrentino's writing is magnificent. He's kept me subscribed for over 25 years now.

    I rather miss Vernon Felton. He's a great writer as well.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  60. #160
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    HT are for smart riders.
    With all the socalled smart phones
    smart people are a rare thing.
    It will be so funny when the economy goes down they will all be lost
    and do not mention meat will be out of their budget.
    Good times are coming back.
    The HT will dominate!

  61. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    It is a exaggeration to be sure, but just like XC guys are lycra clad dirt roadies with no tech skills. I have met plenty of riders on big bikes that complain profusely about climbing. Even when I ride my trail bike I still see them. I like fun downhill too, but I feel climbs are the way to earn the downhill run. Mountain biking not just about hitting jumps, but about riding terrain. I am no enduro guy, but I did an enduro once and did reasonably well. Finished upper mid pack on my 5" trail bike. Day 1 had basicly shuttle to the top of the mountain and one medium climb. Day 2 started with a 7 mile 2000 foot climb on a dirt road. Boring, but not hard either when not timed. Just pick an easy gear and pedal up. We had 2 hours to climb it there were so many people complaining it was silly. Really guys had been climbing that mountain road since 1998. Just ride it and quit you bitching.

    Seems like these day many people shuttle that dirt road. Anyway I think every other picture in Bike Mag has rider in the air. The reality of riding is that 95% of riders stay on the ground or at most get a few inches of air. Most don't do 10' gap jumps. Sure it would be cool to do that, but even at only 43 years old recovering from a failed gap jump takes way too long. Risk vs reward is just not there for me to want to develop that level of skill. I do still ride techy stuff and don't mind pushing my limits here and there (that is why I did that Enduro race and cleaned 2 section of trail I never had in 20 years before), but event that is just part of my riding.

    A couple of months ago I rode around a certain valley at the bottom of a set of hills and mountains; you can start on a trail about 4 miles away as the crow flies and it winds down maybe 12 miles total to where I parked. A few guys were sitting there hanging out, 6 bikes, three guys. I'm like...uh...are you going to ride? They told me they were waiting for the shuttle ride to get back from picking up the other truck up top. So 90 minutes later I finish my ride. They are STILL there waiting lol. I'm thinking WTF did the other guys go have a beer somewhere on the way to picking up the other truck? 12 miles back up is not easy but why wait 90 minutes for the shuttle truck...
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  62. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battery View Post
    My mountain biking pals all ride FS and I'm the only lunatic on a hardtail. I still keep up with them just fine. I honestly don't read magazines or online articles that much. I prefer to watch YouTube videos.

    Many people on here say that if they have both types of bikes, they can do up to around 21 mph downhill on the hardtail, and around 24 mph on the full-suspension bike. OK, if that's 14-15% of an increase in speed, that's great, I'm sure they are happy about that. But for most people, especially here in SoCal loose dirt country, the vast majority of us mere mortals not even hitting 20 mph ANYWAY, so it doesn't matter. A lot of the downhill KOM's here are 15-20 mph, not 24 mph; loose dirt seems to level the playing field a bit. (Speaking of which it rained Wed night for the 1st time in like 5 months, hope the downhill stuff is nice and packed for the weekend!!!) So maybe someone who is decent downhill here can do 16 mph on a hardtail, and 18 mph on a full-suspension. That's 2 mph, it's not a night and day difference. If times are everything, then yes full-suspension is the way to go. Otherwise, on the lower end of downhill times it's not that big of a deal between the two.
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  63. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Many people on here say that if they have both types of bikes, they can do up to around 21 mph downhill on the hardtail, and around 24 mph on the full-suspension bike. OK, if that's 14-15% of an increase in speed, that's great, I'm sure they are happy about that. But for most people, especially here in SoCal loose dirt country, the vast majority of us mere mortals not even hitting 20 mph ANYWAY, so it doesn't matter. A lot of the downhill KOM's here are 15-20 mph, not 24 mph; loose dirt seems to level the playing field a bit. (Speaking of which it rained Wed night for the 1st time in like 5 months, hope the downhill stuff is nice and packed for the weekend!!!) So maybe someone who is decent downhill here can do 16 mph on a hardtail, and 18 mph on a full-suspension. That's 2 mph, it's not a night and day difference. If times are everything, then yes full-suspension is the way to go. Otherwise, on the lower end of downhill times it's not that big of a deal between the two.
    sooo...does this mean I should read magazines instead of watching YouTube videos?
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  64. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    I didn't read the OP or any posts...

    But I agree with the title and I'll add that trails that can be ridden on hardtails comfortably are not mountain bike trails.
    I'm not sure if you mean 'excessive fatigue' or 'high risk' by 'comfortably,' but there are very few trails where i experience either on the hardtail that i don't feel that way with my full sus. Mostly it's just that the FS is faster.


    Granted my hardtail has a a 1220mm wheelbase, a lyrik, and 1000g tires.
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  65. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    maybe I spoke too soon- we had this conversation a few months ago. I have a short memory. (moderator merged my new thread with the old thread on the same topic.)

    no e-mtbs, so we dodged a bullet for another year.

    I appreciate the other great journalism that comes out of Bike Mag though. If only reviewing dentist bikes is what pays their staff, bring it. I can ignore those and ride something they don't care about while they write solid stuff about the IMBA and trail access.
    I'm pretty sure that Mike Ferrentino and I would fistfight if we ever met each other irl, due to a defunct message board. YMMV
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  66. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    Sometimes fs is too high maintenance, ht can rack up 2x the mileage without the wrench/down time compared to fs....
    that's why you should have one of each. i do...

  67. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Many people on here say that if they have both types of bikes, they can do up to around 21 mph downhill on the hardtail, and around 24 mph on the full-suspension bike. OK, if that's 14-15% of an increase in speed, that's great, I'm sure they are happy about that. But for most people, especially here in SoCal loose dirt country, the vast majority of us mere mortals not even hitting 20 mph ANYWAY, so it doesn't matter. A lot of the downhill KOM's here are 15-20 mph, not 24 mph; loose dirt seems to level the playing field a bit. (Speaking of which it rained Wed night for the 1st time in like 5 months, hope the downhill stuff is nice and packed for the weekend!!!) So maybe someone who is decent downhill here can do 16 mph on a hardtail, and 18 mph on a full-suspension. That's 2 mph, it's not a night and day difference. If times are everything, then yes full-suspension is the way to go. Otherwise, on the lower end of downhill times it's not that big of a deal between the two.
    I don't know where you're riding, but it's pretty easy to exceed 20mph pretty much everywhere I've ridden in San Diego. Of course average speed over the entire distance of a segment is not the same as top speed. For example, there's one segment at Mission Trails where my average speed over the segment may only be 23mph (my bike runs out of gears at 22mph) but my top speed on that segment is a touch over 30mph. My average top speed at Mission Trails is 34.45mph (averaged from top speeds of last 4 trips). My average top speed at PQ is 26.1mph; again this is despite that the fact that with a 30x11 top gear I'm running out of pedal power around 22mph-ish. I'm not close to holding any KOMs anywhere around here either. Having spent plenty of time racing on a hardtail I'd say there'd be close to a 10mph top speed difference for me on a my FS bike vs a hardtail, but I bet my average speed over the course of the day would actually be higher on the hardtail.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scatterbrained View Post
    I don't know where you're riding, but it's pretty easy to exceed 20mph pretty much everywhere I've ridden in San Diego. Of course average speed over the entire distance of a segment is not the same as top speed. For example, there's one segment at Mission Trails where my average speed over the segment may only be 23mph (my bike runs out of gears at 22mph) but my top speed on that segment is a touch over 30mph. My average top speed at Mission Trails is 34.45mph (averaged from top speeds of last 4 trips). My average top speed at PQ is 26.1mph; again this is despite that the fact that with a 30x11 top gear I'm running out of pedal power around 22mph-ish. I'm not close to holding any KOMs anywhere around here either. Having spent plenty of time racing on a hardtail I'd say there'd be close to a 10mph top speed difference for me on a my FS bike vs a hardtail, but I bet my average speed over the course of the day would actually be higher on the hardtail.
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  69. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by midwestmtb View Post
    Yep. Lots of folks around here want long travel bikes.......not because they think the trails are super gnarly but because "it's easier on my back" or "I can sit and pedal".

    It's for the same reasons people like Toyota Camrys over BMWs. A preference for road isolation rather than feeling the road.
    How much travel do you need to "sit and pedal" or make it easier on your back? What does longer, lower and slacker do for comfort? I'm not saying they shouldn't ride whatever they want, but the new super bikes aren't exactly designed to sit and spin. If that's your riding style, a 5-inch trail bike is much more suitable. Or even a hardtail with a Cane Creek suspension seatpost. Lighter, comfortable, and more efficient than the 6-inch mini-downhill bikes that everybody needs these days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    How much travel do you need to "sit and pedal" or make it easier on your back? What does longer, lower and slacker do for comfort? I'm not saying they shouldn't ride whatever they want, but the new super bikes aren't exactly designed to sit and spin. If that's your riding style, a 5-inch trail bike is much more suitable. Or even a hardtail with a Cane Creek suspension seatpost. Lighter, comfortable, and more efficient than the 6-inch mini-downhill bikes that everybody needs these days.
    Those are good points and just shows the power of marketing. People end up buying the wrong bike for their needs. In any case, my post wasn't really about what is the best bike for being ass glued on your seat, it was a response to the dwayyo who was cutting on hardtails and being a d*ck about it.

  71. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by midwestmtb View Post
    Those are good points and just shows the power of marketing. People end up buying the wrong bike for their needs. In any case, my post wasn't really about what is the best bike for being ass glued on your seat, it was a response to the dwayyo who was cutting on hardtails and being a d*ck about it.
    Lol. Yes he was.

  72. #172
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    According to my LBS their best selling bike is a SC Hightower. I’m in south FL...

    Hardtails FTW btw. 😄

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grooverider View Post
    According to my LBS their best selling bike is a SC Hightower. I’m in south FL...

    Hardtails FTW btw. 😄
    That's overkill but with some faster tires not an unreasonable bike. Seriously, what are they giving up, the bragging rights of being fastest in south FL? Let's face it, we're probably talking about a bunch of middle aged dudes just getting into biking. It's not like all that stands between them and greatness is buying a hardtail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    That's overkill but with some faster tires not an unreasonable bike. Seriously, what are they giving up, the bragging rights of being fastest in south FL? Let's face it, we're probably talking about a bunch of middle aged dudes just getting into biking. It's not like all that stands between them and greatness is buying a hardtail.
    Jeremy you nailed it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    That's overkill but with some faster tires not an unreasonable bike. Seriously, what are they giving up, the bragging rights of being fastest in south FL? Let's face it, we're probably talking about a bunch of middle aged dudes just getting into biking. It's not like all that stands between them and greatness is buying a hardtail.
    Oh I see. So it doesn't bother you at all that they are buying a bike they don't need that starts at $4000 and it actually makes them slower for their trails? Not to mention an added $200 a year for shock and linkage service?

    I should become a salesman. I'd sell 35k minivans to single dudes because, after all, what are they giving up and who knows, maybe one day, they will need those extra 7 seats.

  76. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by midwestmtb View Post
    Oh I see. So it doesn't bother you at all that they are buying a bike they don't need that starts at $4000 and it actually makes them slower for their trails? Not to mention an added $200 a year for shock and linkage service?

    Does that bother you? It doesn't concern me in the slightest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Does that bother you? It doesn't concern me in the slightest.
    it doesn't bother me what people ride on the trail. It bothers me when people get scammed into something they don't need so don't twist my meaning. The context should have been clear from the example I gave.

  78. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by midwestmtb View Post
    Oh I see. So it doesn't bother you at all that they are buying a bike they don't need that starts at $4000 and it actually makes them slower for their trails? Not to mention an added $200 a year for shock and linkage service?
    Why should it bother me how much someone I don't know spends on their bike or how fast they ride it?

    Bothers me more when people who don't seem to have any idea what they're talking about post ridiculous numbers regarding the cost of suspension maintenance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Why should it bother me how much someone I don't know spends on their bike or how fast they ride it?

    Bothers me more when people who don't seem to have any idea what they're talking about post ridiculous numbers regarding the cost of suspension maintenance.
    Miss the point much?

    As for ridiculous numbers:

    https://www.ridefox.com/service.php?m=bike ($145 for rear shock)

    And randomly googling a rear linkage service
    https://www.bgindy.com/articles/bgis...rtment-pg8.htm ($60 for linkage service)

    I don't know where you went to school but where I went to school $145+$60=$205.

  80. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by midwestmtb View Post
    it doesn't bother me what people ride on the trail. It bothers me when people get scammed into something they don't need so don't twist my meaning. The context should have been clear from the example I gave.


    It's not a scam, most people buy what they want. Middle aged dudes with money usually want fs.
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  81. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by midwestmtb View Post
    Miss the point much?

    As for ridiculous numbers:

    https://www.ridefox.com/service.php?m=bike ($145 for rear shock)

    And randomly googling a rear linkage service
    https://www.bgindy.com/articles/bgis...rtment-pg8.htm ($60 for linkage service)

    I don't know where you went to school but where I went to school $145+$60=$205.
    I don't know how long you've owned and been riding and maintaining full suspension bikes (I got my first in '99), but if you're spending that much every year servicing yours and you're not racing at a high level or hammering the thing down real mountains in shitty conditions every weekend, you're a much bigger fool with your money than the guy with the $4k bike you decided he doesn't 'need'.

    Fox rebuild kit is well under $20 and is easily done at the kitchen table.
    Greasing your linkage is pennies.

    I don't know where you went to school, but they obviously didn't share the wisdom of P.T. Barnum with you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I don't know how long you've owned and been riding and maintaining full suspension bikes (I got my first in '99, but if you're spending that much every year servicing yours and you're not racing at a high level or hammering the thing down real mountains in shitty conditions every weekend, your a bigger sucker than the guy with the $4k bike you decided he doesn't 'need'.

    Fox rebuild kit is well under $20 and is easily done at the kitchen table.
    Greasing your linkage is pennies.

    I don't know where you went to school, but they obviously didn't share the wisdom of P.T. Barnum with you.

    Haha ok buddy. Number one, we are talking about newbies in Florida not me. So try to focus please. Number two, newbies in florida who buy $4000 bikes in the first place will not be looking for $20 kits to rebuild the bike on their kitchen table. They will likely bring it to the shop that sold them the $4000 bike and get their shocks sent out and their linkage serviced. And both Fox and shops recommend 100 hours. Obviously a newbie by definition isn't a guy with your all encompassing wisdom and therefore will likely abide by the 100 hour rule.

  83. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by midwestmtb View Post
    Haha ok buddy. Number one, we are talking about newbies in Florida not me. So try to focus please. Number two, newbies in florida who buy $4000 bikes in the first place will not be looking for $20 kits to rebuild the bike on their kitchen table. They will likely bring it to the shop that sold them the $4000 bike and get their shocks sent out and their linkage serviced. And both Fox and shops recommend 100 hours. Obviously a newbie by definition isn't a guy with your all encompassing wisdom and therefore will likely abide by the 100 hour rule.
    Only if guys like you keep misinforming them.
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  84. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Only if guys like you keep misinforming them.
    Well since I don't live in Florida you don't have to worry about that. I'm sure there are plenty of guys at LBS' overselling them so I don't need to come down there

  85. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by midwestmtb View Post
    Well since I don't live in Florida you don't have to worry about that. I'm sure there are plenty of guys at LBS' overselling them so I don't need to come down there
    Then you can probably stop being bothered about what people are riding down there too huh?
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  86. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Then you can probably stop being bothered about what people are riding down there too huh?
    Really, we have to go over this again?

    Ok, yes you got me. You were just too smart. It bothers the hell out of me when I see somebody riding a Hightower. I judge the hell out of them. Probably not good fathers, community citizens or church citizens either. Probably steals candy from babies. Screw em all!!

  87. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by midwestmtb View Post
    Oh I see. So it doesn't bother you at all that they are buying a bike they don't need that starts at $4000 and it actually makes them slower for their trails? Not to mention an added $200 a year for shock and linkage service?

    I should become a salesman. I'd sell 35k minivans to single dudes because, after all, what are they giving up and who knows, maybe one day, they will need those extra 7 seats.
    It doesn't bother me when I see a guy in a minivan by himself. Maybe he uses it to haul his bikes in. It doesn't bother me that he could be in a faster vehicle that he's not racing.

    Slower for their trails? We're splitting hairs. We're not talking about racing. We're not talking about trying to lug a 200mm travel DH bike around FL. A Hightower will pedal around flat ground totally fine for hours. If Florida man wants to get serious about how fast he is then I'm sure he'll figure it out.

    Let's be real. Mountain biking is mostly a bunch of mediocre bike handlers putting around in the woods. If we're talking about some star athlete who is tanking their career by buying the wrong bike or someone who can't responsibly afford the bike then you've got a point. Otherwise we're just some dorks arguing on the internet about our hobby equipment.

  88. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post

    Let's be real. Mountain biking is mostly a bunch of mediocre bike handlers putting around in the woods. If we're talking about some star athlete who is tanking their career by buying the wrong bike or someone who can't responsibly afford the bike then you've got a point. Otherwise we're just some dorks arguing on the internet about our hobby equipment.
    This is a good point. But just to be clear, I don't care what people ride on the trail. I also don't care what people are driving on the road. When I see a person in a minivan, it's not like I'm saying to myself, "dude, should you be driving that minivan?"

    What I don't like are salesmen upselling shit to unsuspecting customers. I'm seeing that at sleazy auto dealers and I've seen it happen at my local LBS. One customer even returned the bike a couple weeks because he was pi$$ed that he got sold a $3000 bike so that he can "ride with his kids" on the trail. He was a newbie and thought the LBS guy would take care of him rather than act like the sleazy used car dealership down the road.

  89. #189
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    If you have a bad back a full suspension bike is mandatory. Same goes for road bikes. Bigger tires and a comfort oriented bike make a huge difference in just being able to ride.
    I'm building a Ripmo to take some pressure off my bad wrist and back. My xc bike beats me up to much in the rough stuff.
    Even my 9 year prefers a full suspension bike over a hardtail but this is area spacific.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  90. #190
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    Meanwhile...I keep seeing people riding cross bikes on some of the more technical trails round here. Maybe BIKE will review a gravel grinder / cross bike?

  91. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by midwestmtb View Post

    What I don't like are salesmen upselling shit to unsuspecting customers.
    He just said it was their best selling bike, I didn't see any implication the salespeople were misleading customers.

  92. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by midwestmtb View Post
    What I don't like are salesmen upselling shit to unsuspecting customers. .
    Like recommending suspension service every 50 hours?
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Like recommending suspension service every 50 hours?
    That is Rockshox's recommendations not Fox. So it depends. And I've had cases where I had less than 3ml of fluid left after only 50 hours in my Rockshox forks. So in some cases that recommendation actually makes sense. Certainly more sense than telling someone they need a $3k full suspension bike to put around with their kids on dirt bike paths.

  94. #194
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    I live in Fla and one of the guys I rode with last Sat. has a Hightower. So a 3rd guy says he is looking at new bikes and likes the SC Blur/plans to demo one soon. We took the opportunity to kid the HTower rider for being over biked. It was fun.
    oops I wasn't clipped in

  95. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by 33red View Post
    Lucky you, your numbers will improve in 2 years.
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    scatterbrained likes big numbers, technology will sell those.

  97. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by midwestmtb View Post
    That is Rockshox's recommendations not Fox. So it depends. And I've had cases where I had less than 3ml of fluid left after only 50 hours in my Rockshox forks. So in some cases that recommendation actually makes sense. Certainly more sense than telling someone they need a $3k full suspension bike to put around with their kids on dirt bike paths.
    I would recommend back to them that they should start making sure they put enough oil in their forks prior to selling them.
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  98. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I would recommend back to them that they should start making sure they put enough oil in their forks prior to selling them.
    Zing!

    Good one, Slap.
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    Okay, I'm fully in the FS camp myself, but I got to thinking that for really steep terrain, a hardtail might work just fine since there's almost no weight on the back wheel anyway. You do need a very good fork though.



    This sort of riding^
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    Okay, I'm fully in the FS camp myself, but I got to thinking that for really steep terrain, a hardtail might work just fine since there's almost no weight on the back wheel anyway. You do need a very good fork though.



    This sort of riding^
    Yup, they're a lot of fun on trails like that. You're totally right about a good fork, too. On a progressive hardtail you ride the fork, so a good damper and a nice stiff chassis is essential.


    Progressive hardtails are really fun on most trails. They don't beat up your back or anything like that. It's easier to describe where they're NOT just as fun.
    -long choppy trails
    -flow trails with big old bomb holes and nasty braking bumps
    -scary semi-natural jumps
    -long rock gardens, especially when you're trying to go fast.
    -4+ hour rides


    I've been a hardtail enthusiast forever, and most of my rides are aboard a progressive hardtail. It's not for everyone, but for me a great hardtail is just as fun as a great squishy bike, it's just different. I guess it's a handicap... but it's also not?




    Overall, i understand why bikemag doesn't bother to review them. Progressive hardtail riders aren't gonna give a crap what some journo thinks, and there's no money for the big bike brand in hardtails.
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