3,000 ebike deaths in China in 2008- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    3,000 ebike deaths in China in 2008

    That's a lot!

    "According to the most recent statistics available, more than 3,000 people were killed from e-bike accidents in 2008, up from just 34 in 2001."

    http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archi...1/2276355.aspx

    With ecars, some manufacturers have programmed in a choice of engine sound effects.

    Maybe a heavy panting sound for ebikes? Playing card in spokes?

    A real issue I think. 3,000! Many more to come?

  2. #2
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    theres 10 gagillion people in china, and bicycles are a significant mode of transportation.

    more people in china are making more money every year. car accidents are up too, simply because more people can afford cars, etc.

  3. #3
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    China has what, a billion people? And a much higher percentage that ride bikes of all kinds, especially e-bikes. I'll bet $10 against a stale doughnut those 3000 deaths represent a far lower percentage than our death rate, even for regular bicycles.
    JW

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    "Gagillion" LMAO
    Yeah, I wonder what's the deaths related to people walking. I bet it's more than 3000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot
    car accidents are up too, simply because more people can afford cars, etc.

    More cars = more fatalities.

    More ebikes = ?


    Are there aspects of ebikes that make them more dangerous than bicycles?

    Speed, silence or rider-related?

    Probably mostly speed.

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    And the winner is

    Quote Originally Posted by oasismfg
    China has what, a billion people? And a much higher percentage that ride bikes of all kinds, especially e-bikes. I'll bet $10 against a stale doughnut those 3000 deaths represent a far lower percentage than our death rate, even for regular bicycles.
    There are like 20 million e-bikes and growing in China, that replaced 15 million 2 stroke mopeds. Wonder how many deaths were related to those in a year, not to mention the pollution?
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    You mean besides as cyclists we're invisible, and drivers are blind? Sure e-bikes have more power and potentially more speed than regular bike, but motor cycles have even more. You're reaching for a point that's not there, spouting a statistic with no context in an attempt to draw us to a conclusion I bet you've already formed in your mind. Put it into context - if you can - or we're not buying it. For example if you can say (and I'm just making up numbers to illustrate a point) "China has 1 billion people, and of that population 30% ride an e-bike at least once a month, and of that they experience 3000 deaths per year", AND you can give us the same analysis for % of pop vs. deaths in the US, THEN you have something meaningful.

    And not to be cold hearted, but if the death rate of e-bike cyclists in China is 0.01%, I bet even China would yawn.
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    I think the OP based his opinion on his experience here in the US of A. Majority of road in Asia are dominated by two wheels of all types. Drivers are more than aware of their surrounding than drivers here in the US. Though, they are more aggressive, but it's embedded in their brain that there are a whole bunch of 2 wheelers around them.

    I grew up in on of the most congested city Bangkok, started riding motorcycle about same time I start riding bicycle. I can tell you unless the riders doing some stupid stuffs they are safer than riders here in the US. Driver here either not used to or just don't care enough about others sharing the road. May be they are just inexperience, in Socal every time it rain the accident rate go up dramatically from 14 when dry to 167 accident calls the last time it rain a few days ago.

    We are so used to big street, and life's pretty easy on the road. There is not the case every one is more aggressive but at the same time they are more aware IMO.

    There's no such thing as a fixies "critical mass" in China it's just another day.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by oasismfg
    You're reaching for a point that's not there, spouting a statistic with no context in an attempt to draw us to a conclusion I bet you've already formed in your mind.

    What point/conclusion do you have in your mind? Click on the link for context, if you honestly want context. Ever been hit by a bike? Yikes.





    http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=...f73b7d243bf661
    Last edited by BadHabit; 04-26-2010 at 12:14 PM.

  10. #10
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    I was thinking the conclusion you think we should come to is: e-bikes are not safe, and we should not have them on our roads. Am I wrong?

    The article states "For some reason, e-bike riders tend to zip around heedless of road rules. They especially like to go against the flow of traffic." IF that's a true statement, you can hardly blame casualties that result from ignoring rules of the road on e-bikes.

    It also says 3,000 deaths out of 90,000 over all traffic related fatalities is "not an insignificant amount". That works out to 3.33%. Again, not to be cold hearted, but I don't think most people consider 3.33% of anything as a significant number. I know, I know, tell that to their families and see what they think is significant, right? But if there's 140,000,000 of these things on China's roads, all I can say damn, that's a lot of bikes! So the death rate among e-bikers in China is what, 0.002% if my math is correct? And if they could be persuaded to follow the rules that would presumably drop? Sounds pretty safe to me.

    So maybe I was wrong, maybe you brought this to our attention to illustrate how safe it actually is?
    JW

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    Quote Originally Posted by oasismfg
    I was thinking the conclusion you think we should come to is: e-bikes are not safe, and we should not have them on our roads. Am I wrong?
    I think ebikes or the equivalent will prove to be useful if not even necessary energy conservation tools.

    Quote Originally Posted by oasismfg
    maybe you brought this to our attention to illustrate how safe it actually is?
    I think there are safety issues for ebikes (and ecars) that involve their speed and quietness. I live in the city; if some ebikers ride in the same careless fashion as some regular cyclists in such a crowded environment, we've got real trouble.

    Eriders will pass regular riders in many circumstances. I hope they all learn quickly to call it out. Maybe they will.

    I've been hit from behind by a bike while just walking. It hurt like hell, and it was low speed.

    I've got to think designers and planners can help us out here to mitigate a new danger.

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    You mean like collision avoidance radar for both bikes and cars? Probably doable, but not any time soon. It's just starting to become available on some new cars, but it will be a loooooong time before it becomes wide spread. Like most things, education is our first defense, and adhering to the rules of the road. It would be nice to have some added infrastructure to support bikes in general, but I wouldn't count on that either any time soon.

    As much as I would love to see 140 million e-bikes in this country, something drastic will have to take place to change our culture to make that happen. Maybe when gas prices double. Until then, we'd rather drive. Of course, there is tremendous potential here for growth and success if you were to start up a business like Optibike, since the culture shift has already started, it's just very slow. It's kind of outside my current business focus (we make dc powered air compressors), but what I know about driving dc compressors would translate well into driving small e-vehicles, so I've been toying with the idea. Talk about a recession proof business model, that's it! Being that the culture shift is slow here is a real opportunity for the small guy to get involved.

    Sorry for getting side tracked.
    JW

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by oasismfg
    Talk about a recession proof business model, that's it! Being that the culture shift is slow here is a real opportunity for the small guy to get involved.

    Sorry for getting side tracked.
    Somehow is reminding me of the revolution the Wrights started in their bike shop.

    I agree about the timing, I think. Could be great.

    I wasn't thinking collision avoidance, but I should have been! So much to it. I read today that there are mobile phone apps that will shut a phone down if it is moving more than 10 miles an hour according to gps! Damn good idea. Got to be something. I was just thinking a factory-installed noise.

  14. #14
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    Good idea! yes but

    Quote Originally Posted by BadHabit
    Somehow is reminding me of the revolution the Wrights started in their bike shop.

    I agree about the timing, I think. Could be great.

    I wasn't thinking collision avoidance, but I should have been! So much to it. I read today that there are mobile phone apps that will shut a phone down if it is moving more than 10 miles an hour according to gps! Damn good idea. Got to be something. I was just thinking a factory-installed noise.
    As long as it's the operator's choice not mandatory. Keep government out of regulating this. Where does it end if they keep going.

  15. #15
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    Noise is certainly easy and practical, might get pretty annoying though. Collision avoidance would probably be a lot easier on a car than a bike. On a car, the system can control motor, steering and brakes. I could just see a collision avoidance system jerk the handlebars away from a rider! Not good. Having the motor shut down would be easy, and not make the rider fall, but from riding motorcycles sometimes you need to put power to the rear wheel to get out of a dangerous situation.

    Maybe noise is the way to go. Maybe activated automatically when a proximity detector senses another moving vehicle or pedestrian nearby, and that can be over rode by the operator.
    JW

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    Quote Originally Posted by mimi1885
    As long as it's the operator's choice not mandatory. Keep government out of regulating this. Where does it end if they keep going.

    Nah. I'm a big fan of government regulation! And not so much of human nature. Seriously. What else is government good for?

    I miss the old PoSER forum where we could really thrash this out and call each other names while we were at it!

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    3000 people killed - That's a lot alright! I wonder how many of them were riding those 'hip' fixed gear bikes? They look pretty cool but I don't know about the 'lack of brakes' thing? They probably don't mix that well with cars.

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    Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics

    The article is pointless Statistics are useless if you aren't asking the right questions

    Were the 3000 people killed riding the e-bike OR pedestrians hit by the e bike?
    How many e-bikes are there in China? What percentage of vehicles are e-bikes?
    What's the death rate for conventional bicycles?

    3000 is not a lot. When you consider that China has over 100 million e-bikes maybe 120 million. There are around 5000 bicycle deaths per year in china.

    The OFFICIAL (read: the number PRC allows to be quoted) traffic death toll in China is around 100,000 per annum. Given the Chinese gov's penchant for image control, the real number is probably twice that.

    In the US, pedestrians account for 6 times the death toll of cyclists. But that is a statistic and therefore pointless if you don't account for the ratio of pedestrians to cyclists.

    BTW maybe if they wore helmets they'd survive more. Even the author, moaning about safety isn't wearing one.
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  19. #19
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    I live in Sydney and the only people who ride e-bikes are fat guys in flannelet shirts and (too short) shorts who've lost their car licenses for DUI.
    Drunks falling off their bikes is nothing new perhaps in china it's the same (perhaps not)
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    I wonder how much of these deaths are due to faulty equipment.
    In the US manufacturers can be sued when a faulty product causes injury.
    I not sure if you can sue a Chinese manufacturer for faulty product or negligence.

    Boeing and Kenworth Trucks will not buy Chinese fasteners because of counterfeiting problems. US Government has run into some issues also.

    http://www.gao.gov/htext/d10389.html

    Seaweed used in brake pads. WTF?

    Do they have Consumer protection laws over there? Chinese companies have added toxic chemicals to powdered milk and toothpaste to make more profits. WTF?

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    3000 E-bike deaths is no big deal.

    2.2 million deaths a year in China from indoor air pollution. So 3000 E-bike deaths is no big deal.

    http://www1.voanews.com/english/news...-93932109.html

    However, the Chinese government refutes the 2.2 million number. Government blames the false numbers on Chinese filter manufacturer.

    http://health.yahoo.com/news/afp/hea...518160155.html

    Is a product "GREEN" if the people building it are dying from the industrial pollution?
    Steel mills, Coal fired power plants, Solvents from Wet paint processes, welding exhaust, all part of the bike industry

  22. #22
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    3,000 deaths.

    China's population: 1,324,655,000

    3,000/1,324,655,000 x 100 = 0.0002%

    0.0002% doesn't seem to high me!

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    Quote Originally Posted by froggy97
    The article is pointless Statistics are useless if you aren't asking the right questions

    Were the 3000 people killed riding the e-bike OR pedestrians hit by the e bike?
    How many e-bikes are there in China? What percentage of vehicles are e-bikes?
    What's the death rate for conventional bicycles?
    Exactly. My instinct is that the number going up is a reflection of the rising number of cars/new drivers on the road and not anything intrinsic to e-bikes.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadHabit
    That's a lot!

    "According to the most recent statistics available, more than 3,000 people were killed from e-bike accidents in 2008, up from just 34 in 2001."

    http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archi...1/2276355.aspx

    With ecars, some manufacturers have programmed in a choice of engine sound effects.

    Maybe a heavy panting sound for ebikes? Playing card in spokes?

    A real issue I think. 3,000! Many more to come?

    I blame Obama for this too.
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  25. #25
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    The claim of being "green" is laughable .

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    Ya, whose a$$ he want's now.

  27. #27
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    Those 3000 deaths probably have more to do with the way they drive than what they drive. Apparently, STOP signs and traffic signals haven't been invented in China yet.
    http://jalopnik.com/5563003/video-34...-car-accidents
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    I dare you to watch this and not make judgments regarding chinese road users...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QESfE...layer_embedded

    Edit: how did I not see the post above

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dictatorsaurus
    3,000 deaths.

    China's population: 1,324,655,000

    3,000/1,324,655,000 x 100 = 0.0002%

    0.0002% doesn't seem to high me!
    it does not seem high for a whole country, but it is high for their family

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    Quote Originally Posted by frisky_zissou
    I dare you to watch this and not make judgments regarding chinese road users...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QESfE...layer_embedded
    Another factor could be that no one wears helmets?? let's just

  31. #31
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    Good friend of mine just got back from 6 weeks in China for school, bought a cruiser while there to get around and said bikes have absolutely no right of way, drivers will get right on your bumper and lay on the horn and you better move or they will move you.
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  32. #32
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    Eff off, spammer.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadHabit
    I read today that there are mobile phone apps that will shut a phone down if it is moving more than 10 miles an hour according to gps!
    But what if you are on a train or bus? No texting on trains? What about being a car passenger? I cannot text my SO as I am taking a taxi to her place?

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbyoung2007
    it does not seem high for a whole country, but it is high for their family
    So are cancer, cardiac, car accident and homicide rates.

  35. #35
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    Ever been to China? If you go to the medium size cities, you'll see e-bikes EVERYWHERE. I spent a few weeks in Nanjing in 2007 and was shocked how many electric bikes there were. You'd see more in 4 or 5 minutes than in a typical year in the US.

  36. #36
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    How many people are killed in China riding buffalo carts?

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadHabit
    That's a lot!
    Not really on a % basis. China has more people than mosquitos and very lax transportaton laws. On the flipside, their breakpads and cellphone battery fires have killed plenty of people worldwide. It's just human stupidity and corporate greed leading to population control.
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  38. #38
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    What can you expect from a country where everybody is a beginning driver, in a hurry?
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  39. #39
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    hehe.. I'll bet many of those deths the Ebike system was not even active (ie probably standing still waiting to cross traffic and getting hit..)

    b./

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