Seatstay triming..... cut the dropout or seat post sides. ;)- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Seatstay triming..... cut the dropout or seat post sides. ;)

    Hello,
    Hope everyone is doing well!

    I am ready to rough cut the seatstays to the approximate length to start mitering/bending.
    Keep in mind I will also be silver brazing in a Tube Spitter (it is 90 mm thick) on the drive side (Belt option)


    Is there a framebuilder approved rule of thumb for cutting the seatstays to length. (Side selection)

    Better to cut down the seatpost side?
    Better to cut the dropout side?
    My feeling (with about ZERO real world experience. ) is to cut a little off each side and make sure the tube splitter is high up toward the bottom of the upcoming bend on the stay. (to try and save a little on the butted ends)

    The tube being used is a True Temper OX3SS.

    Thanks in advance and I can't thank you enough for the help. Rather ask the question now that wish I did later.

  2. #2
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    I know NOTHING about True Temper tubes. That being said, I have done it both ways. My preference is for "fatter" stays. So I generally cut from the smaller end when I can get away with it. Keep in mind that some stays are butted and you will need to be aware of this butting profile when removing material. A quick look at the Henry James site and True Temper does not provide much information. I am certain Walt will be able to guide you better with respect to the butting profiles of True Temper stays.
    This makes a much bigger difference is when you are working with bent seat/chain stays. For tire clearance purposes it becomes important to make sure the bend is in the correct location.
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  3. #3
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    There are tons of variables like
    butted ends
    tube splitter location
    bend location

    Here are the specs from the HJ site.
    19 mm Double Taper (16mm Diameter at Top)
    Wall: .66
    Tip Diamter 12.4
    537 length (This will be trimmed to about 430...)

  4. #4
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    Those specs seem insufficient to me. The taper lengths are not listed. That being said, assuming no butting profile and the wall thickness is the same....it is not going to make much difference which end you cut. Also keep in mind the type of dropouts you intend to use. In general you can fit tab and/or breezer/hooded/wright style drops to just about anything but plug in drop outs are much more limiting.
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  5. #5
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    Doesn't matter

    Where you cut and where the fatter/thinner sections end up is mostly a matter of aesthetics, so do whatever you think looks cool.

    I will caution you that the OX3SS is (in my experience) completely impossible to bend without kinking. I have a few of those that I use for big road bikes occasionally (purchased because True Temper was dumping old stock and they were too cheap to pass up), but I never use them for mountain bikes.

    -Walt

    Quote Originally Posted by illcomm33
    There are tons of variables like
    butted ends
    tube splitter location
    bend location

    Here are the specs from the HJ site.
    19 mm Double Taper (16mm Diameter at Top)
    Wall: .66
    Tip Diamter 12.4
    537 length (This will be trimmed to about 430...)

  6. #6
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    I am going to go with the black cat sliders. Easier than a button/plug style but going to be more difficult than the simple slotted SS dropouts.
    Do you have any experience bending the stays?

  7. #7
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    My experience with bending stays consists of two different two word phrases ;-)
    1. Buy Columbus(I am going to get read the riot act here)
    2. Buy pre-bent ;-)

    Again, I don't do True Temper(and Walt mentioned bending above), but the Columbus stays I have bent bend pretty well on very old crappy home made benders.
    Most people can get away with using pre-bent stays. There are, of course, issues the can arise like disc caliper and rotor clearances(depending on dropout style) that can cause the need to become creative, but most people will not encounter these on a regular basis.
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  8. #8
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    Thanks Walt!

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt
    Where you cut and where the fatter/thinner sections end up is mostly a matter of aesthetics, so do whatever you think looks cool.

    I will caution you that the OX3SS is (in my experience) completely impossible to bend without kinking. I have a few of those that I use for big road bikes occasionally (purchased because True Temper was dumping old stock and they were too cheap to pass up), but I never use them for mountain bikes.

    -Walt
    Walt,
    Thanks for the solid insight as usual. I just finished up my bender so it sounds like it might be better to wait on bending a different stay!

    What would you recommend instead that has the S-bends already and I can use with the Paragon tube Splitter for Belt Drive Frame: 3/4" x .035."

    Your rec on the Deda s-bend chainstays was right on....

    Thanks for your support and guidance.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Seatstay triming..... cut the dropout or seat post sides. ;)-photo.jpg  

    Last edited by illcomm33; 03-16-2011 at 07:39 AM. Reason: Attaching pic of the tube bender (Craig Ryan from Foresta Bikes was super helpful with the guidance on this!)

  9. #9
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    Learning the ways...thanks for the help

    Yeah...going to try and stay away from buying 'sets' of tubes as I did for 2 frames so far (kit tubes still in the box for a buddies 29er....BUT I can use the seatstay/chainstays for commuters or roadies.

    Buying the pre-bent does make sense for sure and that is what I plan on doing going forward.

  10. #10
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    I do not know of anything

    Prebent seatstays are usually terrible for unusual projects, and I never use them anyway. If you need a 3/4" stay, the Nova ones are easy to bend and work fine.

    If I were you, I'd get the smaller coupler. 3/4" is huge. Regardless, you will probably need to do some trimming of the plugs to taper to fit the stay, unless you just use straightgauge (not a bad idea, it's easy to bend and will fit the coupler well).

    -Walt

    Quote Originally Posted by illcomm33
    Walt,
    Thanks for the solid insight as usual. I just finished up my bender so it sounds like it might be better to wait on bending a different stay!

    What would you recommend instead that has the S-bends already and I can use with the Paragon tube Splitter for Belt Drive Frame: 3/4" x .035."

    Your rec on the Deda s-bend chainstays was right on....

    Thanks for your support and guidance.

  11. #11
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    For "standard" frames, pre-bent stays are a time saver. I used them on my last 3 frames without issue.
    For my personal frames they are a bit of a problem because I am a 5'2" midget ;-)
    Low mounts might be nearly impossible without severe bends. Since I "look up" to most of the rest of the world I would assume most people will not incur such an issue ;-)
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  12. #12
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    Eventually...

    After a few years, you will run into so many situations where you have to bend your own seatstays that you will stop wanting to pay for prebent ones. Trust me on this. I don't know any experienced builders who use them on a regular basis. They seem pretty awesome when bending stuff yourself is still intimidating, but once you figure out how to make your own bends, you'll never go back.

    -Walt

    Quote Originally Posted by pyranha
    For "standard" frames, pre-bent stays are a time saver. I used them on my last 3 frames without issue.
    For my personal frames they are a bit of a problem because I am a 5'2" midget ;-)
    Low mounts might be nearly impossible without severe bends. Since I "look up" to most of the rest of the world I would assume most people will not incur such an issue ;-)

  13. #13
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    Nova ordered! They should have you on comission. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt
    After a few years, you will run into so many situations where you have to bend your own seatstays that you will stop wanting to pay for prebent ones. Trust me on this. I don't know any experienced builders who use them on a regular basis. They seem pretty awesome when bending stuff yourself is still intimidating, but once you figure out how to make your own bends, you'll never go back.

    -Walt
    Thanks Walt. I just ordered both a straight 19 mm Nova seatstay as well as an s-bend for the heck of it! (the shipping didn't change so it was only 25 more!)

    Probably going to be a week at least until I get them...plus I am moving to a new home..... Chaos!

    In your experience is it ok to braze just the chainstay dropout area (in this case Black Cat Sliders...I know the opinions here. ) and go back later to do the seastay dropout?
    (Is it a bad idea to heat the dropout 2 times?!)

  14. #14
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    Walt....all due respect.....if only a few hobby builders were using pre-bent stays, why would every tubing manufacturer offer them? Dedacciai, Columbus, TT, Reynolds, Nova, etc all offer pre-bent stays. In most cases, on average sized bikes, I can not see not using them. I have bent them myself, but don't really see the point.

    To the OP.....
    Most builders will braze/weld the drops to the chain stays before mitering them to the bottom bracket. Off the top of my head I can't think of any that do not do that. From time to time you will see builders post pics like the following......I have seen rear drop photos like this as well.....you get the idea.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/9866331...7625486417475/
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  15. #15
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    They don't offer them because of us.

    Most of the prebents are for mass produced bikes - that is the source of the demand. They also sell them to small custom framebuilders, but very few use them. I agree that they often work fine, but they cost extra money and also often *don't* work for what I want to do, so I (and most others) find it easier to just handle the bending ourselves. There is nothing wrong with either approach, of course, and my comment was not meant as a personal attack.

    Note that I'm talking about seatstays here. Chainstays are much harder to bend, as well as much less variable in length/bend location, so most folks (myself included) use prebent ones of one type or another.

    -Walt

    Quote Originally Posted by pyranha
    Walt....all due respect.....if only a few hobby builders were using pre-bent stays, why would every tubing manufacturer offer them? Dedacciai, Columbus, TT, Reynolds, Nova, etc all offer pre-bent stays. In most cases, on average sized bikes, I can not see not using them. I have bent them myself, but don't really see the point.

    To the OP.....
    Most builders will braze/weld the drops to the chain stays before mitering them to the bottom bracket. Off the top of my head I can't think of any that do not do that. From time to time you will see builders post pics like the following......I have seen rear drop photos like this as well.....you get the idea.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/9866331...7625486417475/

  16. #16
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    Pryanha: So it is ok to braze just the chainstay to the dropout... right.

    Quote Originally Posted by pyranha
    Walt....all due respect.....if only a few hobby builders were using pre-bent stays, why would every tubing manufacturer offer them? Dedacciai, Columbus, TT, Reynolds, Nova, etc all offer pre-bent stays. In most cases, on average sized bikes, I can not see not using them. I have bent them myself, but don't really see the point.

    To the OP.....
    Most builders will braze/weld the drops to the chain stays before mitering them to the bottom bracket. Off the top of my head I can't think of any that do not do that. From time to time you will see builders post pics like the following......I have seen rear drop photos like this as well.....you get the idea.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/9866331...7625486417475/
    Pyranha,
    Thanks for the insight and link...Thinking about it when I was building a chainstay jig many pics I reviewed did have the drops already brazed on.
    So with that being said it has got to be ok to braze the dropouts on the chainstays and then go back to the seatstays at a later time.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt
    snip~ I will caution you that the OX3SS is (in my experience) completely impossible to bend without kinking....~snip

    -Walt
    I'm going to take that challenge.

    BTW, at NAHBS we bent and reversed the bend (taking the bend back out of it and putting a new bend in it the opposite direction) on a single Columbus Nivacrom dual taper 19mm seatstay over 100 times without it breaking, buckling, or showing any artifacts of the bending process. It was weird as we normally can only get about 20 reversals before the material work hardens to the point where it will just snap in half.
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  18. #18
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    We're not worthy!

    Awesome. Well, maybe I need to spend the scratch on an Anvil bender!

    Do I get a discount for the guerrilla marketing?

    -Walt

    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    I'm going to take that challenge.

    BTW, at NAHBS we bent and reversed the bend (taking the bend back out of it and putting a new bend in it the opposite direction) on a single Columbus Nivacrom dual taper 19mm seatstay over 100 times without it breaking, buckling, or showing any artifacts of the bending process. It was weird as we normally can only get about 20 reversals before the material work hardens to the point where it will just snap in half.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by illcomm33
    In your experience is it ok to braze just the chainstay dropout area (in this case Black Cat Sliders...I know the opinions here. ) and go back later to do the seastay dropout?
    (Is it a bad idea to heat the dropout 2 times?!)
    I know this question was already answered, and I'm not "your," but when you're heating a DO, especially something as big a s a Black Cat, you're really not heating both tabs up at the same time anyway. So you're not really heating the DO 2x, just 2 different parts of it 1x each. I'm sure someone will flame me if my technique is way off here.

  20. #20
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    You gotta mind the drop out end. If using plugs/sockets it's real important (they are the easiest to use btw but not generally found in ss slider drops). For the BC drops, make sure you don't get too wide up the stay od, or you will have to squish it a bit to fit on the hood. Maybe the BC drops come with really wide hoods... don't know. But since you can nail the drop out end, and then just let the stay swivel a you shorten up the st end, I would go that route.. cut it a bit long at the st end, and remove material from the bottom of the miter until the top of the miter seats as well.. once the bottom of the miter starts gaping, it's all over.


    -Schmitty-

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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    I'm going to take that challenge.

    BTW, at NAHBS we bent and reversed the bend (taking the bend back out of it and putting a new bend in it the opposite direction) on a single Columbus Nivacrom dual taper 19mm seatstay over 100 times without it breaking, buckling, or showing any artifacts of the bending process. It was weird as we normally can only get about 20 reversals before the material work hardens to the point where it will just snap in half.

    Kind of a testimony as to the resilience of Zona and Max(both Nivacrom).
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    I'm going to take that challenge.

    BTW, at NAHBS we bent and reversed the bend (taking the bend back out of it and putting a new bend in it the opposite direction) on a single Columbus Nivacrom dual taper 19mm seatstay over 100 times without it breaking, buckling, or showing any artifacts of the bending process.
    Just a Public service announcement for the viewers... I was across from Don all weekend and can shed a little light on what really went down.

    Clearly Don is confusing the number of whiskey shots he doled out/partook/shared with how often the stay was reshaped. It was in fact the same stay used all weekend, however, I'm pretty sure it's internal wall structure was supported with lime jello shots...that's gotta be why all the ladies were hanging out around Mr. Bendy.

    To those folks who are serious about discussing bending techniques though, it cannot be stressed enough that a bender must fully encapsulate the tube, offer a progressive radius, and exert consistent surface area contact/pressure to support non-mandrel shaping of thin wall tubing...repeatable quality results depend upon it.

    Big Don's bender checks each of these boxes and offers an excellent tool for folks who are serious about creating custom shaped tubes for bicycle applications.

    cheers,

    rody
    As requested by the MTBR gods, I am the voice of Groovy Cycleworks, check it out... http://www.groovycycleworks.com

  23. #23
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    I have an Anvil bender and find the bends to be too lazy (too large of a radius) for the upper bends on stays. For a second, lower reverse bend, they're fine. I've found that you should also provide some downward pressure on the stay as you're bending, or the roller can indent the top of the thinnest stays.

    I'm not sure what you guys are using for crisper bends on a .8-ish HOX2SS stay. I'm all ears.

  24. #24
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    This simple bender actually worked mostly ok on NOVA seat stays although when I revise the design I am going to use a better system to hold the tube. I plan to hold the tube using something that will not mark and/or old it use part of the tube that will be later removed.



    Not nearly as good as an Anvil but available at a much lower price to support the home builder.

  25. #25
    DWF
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.F.L.
    I have an Anvil bender and find the bends to be too lazy (too large of a radius) for the upper bends on stays. For a second, lower reverse bend, they're fine. I've found that you should also provide some downward pressure on the stay as you're bending, or the roller can indent the top of the thinnest stays.

    I'm not sure what you guys are using for crisper bends on a .8-ish HOX2SS stay. I'm all ears.
    Steve, you must have one of the old benders, right? Like from 6-8 years ago? What stays are you denting as I've bent EOM16.5 (.4mm wall) heat treated stays without marking them? Have you tried running the yoke tight to the mandrel?
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  26. #26
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    Don, It's been so long, i don't remember. (yes, the bender is probably 7 years old. I no longer mess with the thinnest tubes.

    Misadjustment or user error is always a possibility (;

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