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  1. #1
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    Full scale drawing, crankset / chainline info

    I've started drawing my new hardtail project out in full scale, I know it's going to be very tight for clearance around the chainstays as they are short.

    I'm planning on building it up with SRAM carbon cranks, other than buying them now, and measuring them all up, is it possible to get any dimensions from somewhere online so that i can then draw a plan view? I've never built anything as tight as this before, so have never had the need to draw it out in plan view before.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Full scale drawing, crankset / chainline info-img_0948.jpg  


  2. #2
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    Curious what exactly your looking to get from drawing them in the view shown (which is actually an elevation, not a plan view).

    Seems that a few circles representing chainrings and end of crank will get you pretty much everything you'll need from that angle; I think I'd be more concerned with side to side clearances to the chainstays, which you'd want to work out from a section of the actual plan (looking down from the top) view, or an aligned view along the plane of the chainstays.

    (Or maybe you already know all that and didn't actually mean that the drawing shown was the one you're referring to, in which case I misunderstood )

    Anyway, dig around in here (Frame Fit Specifications for SRAM components, with dimensioned drawings):

    https://www.servicearchive.sram.com/..._mtb_ffs_0.pdf
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Curious what exactly your looking to get from drawing them in the view shown (which is actually an elevation, not a plan view).

    Seems that a few circles representing chainrings and end of crank will get you pretty much everything you'll need from that angle; I think I'd be more concerned with side to side clearances to the chainstays, which you'd want to work out from a section of the actual plan (looking down from the top) view, or an aligned view along the plane of the chainstays.

    (Or maybe you already know all that and didn't actually mean that the drawing shown was the one you're referring to, in which case I misunderstood )
    A plan is view down, and elevation, which is what he has drawn is a view from the side. A section is as you noted, cutting through the active view to see through a section not visible in the active. A plan can be considered a section through an elevation from above the subject manner, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    A plan is view down, and elevation, which is what he has drawn is a view from the side. A section is as you noted, cutting through the active view to see through a section not visible in the active. A plan can be considered a section through an elevation from above the subject manner, etc.
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    Thats my drawing so far, i'm going to project my intersections down, and then do a plan view underneath. I want to be able to see how much room i have between tyre/chainring/crankarms. Then i can plan any dimples etc,,, before i start building.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cord View Post
    Thats my drawing so far, i'm going to project my intersections down, and then do a plan view underneath. I want to be able to see how much room i have between tyre/chainring/crankarms. Then i can plan any dimples etc,,, before i start building.
    Right on.

    You should find what you need in the linked .pdf
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    or is it a section view? wasn't aware the Tech Drawing Nomenclature Police were in town! :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cord View Post
    or is it a section view? wasn't aware the Tech Drawing Nomenclature Police were in town! :-)
    Looking up would be a bottom view; gotta cut through something to make it a section, gotta look straight down for it to be a plan view. Or something like that...



    Whichever, the document I linked seems to have everything you'd need (and more).
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    Thanks, i think that is exactly what i wanted!!!

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    Sweet!
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    How did you get to that document? I think i want the 2018 Non-dub version.

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    ignore me, i found it. again, many thanks.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cord View Post
    or is it a section view? wasn't aware the Tech Drawing Nomenclature Police were in town! :-)
    architect gotta police.
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    Well that was easy, just scaled SRAM's drawing to full size and then added my tyre etc,,,, They'd even drawn it with the size of chainwheel that i was planning on uising!

    Full scale drawing, crankset / chainline info-img_0956.jpg

  15. #15
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    How about going high tech and 3d modelling your frame?
    Then you can change and adjust the dimensions to suit by rather than manually redrawing.

    Fusion 360 is available for a free download for enthusiasts. This is really powerful modelling software.

    https://www.autodesk.com/products/fu...hers-educators

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    How about going high tech and 3d modelling your frame?
    Actually last year i downloaded autocad and attempted to teach myself, I'd love to be able to make decent models but it took me forever to do really simple components (I'm a machinist by trade, so i really should be up to speed with this) but i just don't seem to have the time to learn something else new! Several people have told me that fusion 360 is far far easier to use?

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    You're probably better off with something more intended a more casual user than trying to teach yourself a 'professional' CAD package like AutoCAD. It's just too deep to really get good with 'on the side', particularly for solid modelling. (FWIW, I've been using AutoCAD heavily at work for 25 years).

    Have you ever checked into BikeCad?

    https://www.bikecad.ca/
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    I think BikeCAD is like $500 for a subscription.
    Rattlecad has free option but their EUR23 per year subscription has a chainstay modeling module that is very good.

    rattleCAD 4.0 - Bicycle FrameBuilding CAD - Home

    Drawing it on paper works very well as well. Do you want to be a mouse jockey or do you want to build and ride bikes?

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    Looks good. It's been a while since I've seen a drafting machine. Guys I used to work with used them when I was learning CAD.
    Lines look good.

    AutoCAD can get confusing. There are some decent YouTube videos. I draw 3d in other platforms, taught myself enough to do a few projects in AutoCAD, but needed some tutorials for a few things. Having the fundamentals was helpful to me because of my background but it's not something you can't learn if you have the time and desire.

    Keep up the good work.

    Just because you place your plan view below your elevation doesn't make it wrong, as long as you want it from top down. Drawing it as if you were looking up then yeah, it would be a bottom view.
    It does read oddly to place a plan below an elevation -but by time you get your drawings done, as long as it suits your needs, you'll be just fine.

    Double check that SRAM guide. You should confirm dimensions in both directions before you trust it. It is possible to not be proportionally correct.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by duandr View Post
    do you want to be a pencil pusher or do you want to build and ride bikes?
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  21. #21
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    Building a bike without parametric software won't get you great results.

    Why we don't draw on paper | Peter Verdone Designs

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    I've built a few lugged steel road frames before this, and had used the free version of bikecad. It was definitely a help, and certainly sped up the process. I've often wondered what extra features the paid version contains, maybe i should investigate further.

    I'm certainly more interested in spending my time riding, or building bikes, than learning a computer skill, but i'm sure if i was a whiz on a cad package id be saving myself time.

    PVD, not sure i agree with everything in your article, just because a frame was designed on paper is not necessarily going to make it "bad". I had clearly defined in my mind enough parameters to make it quite possible to draw out (once, no erasing) the main points of my frame. However i do agree that there are far quicker ways to do it these days, and drawing full scale certainly isn't fit for most applications.

    The main reason i went with full scale is due to the fact that there will be a few features i've never tackled before, twin tubes, looped rear and my own dropouts. So i wanted the ability to be able to visualize in the best way i could what the finished article would look like. This frame is for a friend, not myself, and the visual aspect is also very important. Doing a full scale plan view of the BB and chainstays is a no-brainer to me, i know it's going to be tight, i know what size tyre/wheel its going to use, i also know what cranks and chainring will be used. I'd much rather experiment with different tube locations over a sheet of paper, than fabricate a frame to the discover it doesn't work.

  23. #23
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    This is my jig, and i think the first frame i made.

    Full scale drawing, crankset / chainline info-img_0063.jpgFull scale drawing, crankset / chainline info-img_e0047.jpgFull scale drawing, crankset / chainline info-img_3037.jpg

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cord View Post
    PVD, not sure i agree with everything in your article...
    For novice work where you are just trying to copy something, you don't need much. If you are doing advanced work and looking to really understand the bicycle, parametric CAD is a must. It's really not possible to do very profound work without it. I've done both, one works.

    Like I've said, I do basic layout in BikeCAD, then I work in a 3D environment. Periodically updating between the two. It works.

    Here's the bike I'm about to start cutting in the next few weeks. The geometry and bends are the result of many hundreds of hours of parametric CAD work. The stem alone has been about a hundred hours in recent memory. This is how real design advancement works. We draw, we test, we improve. Boolean systems completely break down once a real understanding is gained.


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    Iíll post up my progress as I go with this frame, itís always good to get feedback on here from people with more experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by pvd View Post
    Boolean systems completely break down once a real understanding is gained.
    Thanks PVD (I think) I find it hard to decide if you are trying to educate me, or talk down to me? Itís sometimes hard to understand intonation via a forum! Hopefully the former. However, you definitely lost me on booleans????? Did you produce that drawing by hand, or is it produced by the CAD package you use?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forest Rider View Post
    Double check that SRAM guide. You should confirm dimensions in both directions before you trust it. It is possible to not be proportionally correct.
    Thanks, but Iíd already checked. It was indeed slightly out. When I got the BB width correct the crank arms were approx 2mm longer than the listed dimensions. So not 100% right, but for what I need quite definitely close enough. I dare say my drawing skills arenít up to +/-2mm !!!!!

  27. #27
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    I won't lie, learning a 3d modeling software will take hundreds of hours. Fusion is a light version of Autodesk inventor. It's still bloody powerful and only really looses out to inventor/solidworks when it comes to creating reference drawings.

    If you are a machinist by trade definitely teach yourself fusion it also has a pretty grunty CAM software that once mastered the 3d modeling cam programming ability will significantly improve your job opportunities and income.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    If you are a machinist by trade definitely teach yourself fusion it also has a pretty grunty CAM software that once mastered the 3d modeling cam programming ability will significantly improve your job opportunities and income.
    Cheers, Iím going to look into fusion and have a play. I work in the military aerospace
    sector, CAD models are locked down tighter than Meghan Markleís nickers so I moved more towards FMS machining. Iíd rather drive a machine all day rather than a computer, but still it would be massively useful outside of work for when Iím making the really important stuff.

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    This guy here does really good tutorials.

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