Aluminum Track Bike Build Series- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Aluminum Track Bike Build Series

    hello everyone

    I'm new to this forum and to frame building, and during this strange time in the world I'm trying to document one of my frame builds. i have no formal frame building courses or mentors, i just sort of winging it. I have some welding and fabrication experience but more time and practice is definitely required. I'm a little curious on what "real/ Pro" frame builders think of my work flow/ set up, how does it compare to you and your experience. Any tips and or insights would be helpful.

    Thanks

    Matt

    Also my video editing and filming ability's have more to be desired.

    Part 1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8MvG9NV0fo&t=3s

    Part 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1NoLwkV-8M&t=25s

  2. #2
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    It's pretty good. The minimalism is good for folks locked up and needing something to do with what they have.

    Suggestions:

    1. Mention getting tube blocks from paragon. That's a big part of manipulating the tubes as shown.
    2. Your drawing needs a lot of work and really doesn't say anything about the fit, the use, or goals. It's a terrible print. Top tube is not a driving parameter. Neither is reach. An improved drawing with cockpit components shown and dimensioned would be very important and worthy of explaination.
    3. A quick mention of where you got your tubes. As steel will be easier for some, where would they get steel parts.
    4. You obviously have a fixture on hand and others will not. How could they approximate something, ie tube blocks on a concrete floor?
    5. Printing 1:1 for layover. How? Where?

    I think you've done well with the majority of what you've shown but it really jumps in half way. I'm a design guy so I want to know about the choices that you made and why. Covering some of that is important. Also, most folks will not have BikeCAD to help.

    You can't fix it in post. | Peter Verdone Designs
    Bits of advice for the aspiring framebuilder | Peter Verdone Designs
    Frame reach isn't a driving dimension | Peter Verdone Designs

  3. #3
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    Thanks for the input,

    1- I have planed and started filming a video showing all the tools i have as well as a tour of my tiny shop. I don't have all that much stuff lol so it wont be a long video.

    2- I just use the print out for my miter to miter distance. I generally have bikecad open on my computer while I work. I will try and explain my design, fit, and uses when I build up the frame. In terms of design it is based on a Look t20 and Pinarello bolide hr. I want to try riding a frame with race oriented geo. the last track bike i build was more traditional road geo, and made from steel (Columbus Zona).

    3- That's a good idea, i will do a video trying to explain how i got started frame building and where i sourced my materials and tools.

    4/5- I have thought about hand drawing a frame full size and building a frame with no jig and using tubing blocks that I will make. so that video/ project may come in the future.

    You can also see/ find more info and pictures on my Instagram @killickbikes

  4. #4
    pvd
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    1. It's probably not a good idea to refer to these as 'track bikes' since they really aren't designed for, nor will they ever be, used in a velodrome. I believe that the kids call them 'fixies'. Back in the day, we called them fixed gear road bikes, but even then there is a difference.

    2. "In terms of design it is based on a Look t20 and Pinarello bolide hr." Bro. Never ever ever say that again in your life. A bike design is a set of parameters. Each parameter pushes the design in one direction or another. Describing the goal and why each dimension gets you to that goal will help your audience understand, as it will show that you do.

    3. Only a fool draws a bike by hand. As seen in the links provided. If that is the only way to produce a 1:1, the calculations should be produced by a spreadsheet prior to drawing. Really, if someone can only draw by hand, they should find a different hobby.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd View Post
    3. Only a fool draws a bike by hand. As seen in the links provided. If that is the only way to produce a 1:1, the calculations should be produced by a spreadsheet prior to drawing. Really, if someone can only draw by hand, they should find a different hobby.
    Isn't the whole point of a hobby that it gives one the opportunity to "scratch an itch" without necessarily needing to follow industry norms or to chase "efficiencies"? I mean, sure, you can introduce them to better ways if they come for a chat but if that's the itch someone chooses to scratch on their own time and their own dime, it really isn't any of your business as long as they're happy about it. "Find a different hobby" is a major over-reach, even for someone with your "proclivities"

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd View Post
    . Really, if someone can only draw by hand, they should find a different hobby.
    I tried my hardest to walk on by and not get drawn in, but..

    “Bro”, you are sooo full of sh1t. Just because something does or doesn’t work for you. Does not make it set in stone for all humanity to follow in your footsteps. Your ‘do it my way or don’t even bother’ attitude sucks the life blood from this forum. You are the creativity vacuum cleaner of the frame building universe.

    Have you ever considered “advise don’t preach” as being your new stance? Or even “keep quiet don’t preach”

  7. #7
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    Those are a couple of nice introductory videos to your tube cutting process. I agree with some of PVD's suggestions: mention suppliers and discuss fixture options as both of these will be really helpful to aspiring/novice builders. His other suggestions maybe step outside the bounds of what you're trying to achieve in your videos - depends where you want to take them. On the production side, generally good but I did find a few of the cutaways (especially at the end of the videos) a bit abrupt and jarring. Anyway, you got yourself another subscriber - I'm looking forward to following your progress.

    A hobbyist frame builder channel on Youtube which I found particularly inspiring was Pithy Bikes. He's gone a bit quiet recently but his videos are well organised, well-produced and very informative. I can't guess at whether his process and output is PVD approved or not (does anyone really care?) but, to me as a complete novice, he showed how I might go about building a frame from first principles and goes to some length to discuss alternative approaches when he uses tools which builders may not have access to (eg: mini mill).

  8. #8
    pvd
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cord View Post
    ...
    Wrong. So wrong. When teaching, we don't teach the wrong way to do things. You never learned how to draw, that doesn't mean that that isn't your greatest weakness. Just learn how and move forward. Don't "advise" others to skip the important stuff because you do.

    Everybody wants to talk about perfect fillets and filing. Nobody wants to get a good design. It's actually insane.

    You can't fix it in post. | Peter Verdone Designs

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd View Post
    Wrong. When teaching (verbal diarrhoea)
    Middle age middle class white men only start sentences with the word “bro” when they are being condescending arseholes. Last time I checked this was not teaching.

    Telling someone to “find another hobby” is not teaching.

    Would it be entirely possibly for you to not be a complete ass hat for a few moments?

  10. #10
    pvd
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cord View Post
    Telling someone to “find another hobby” is not teaching.
    Of course it is. When someone is looking into a course of study in school or a hobby that they no business pursuing, the wise people around them will tell them. Only a fool would help or 'advise' someone doubling down on a stupid decision. How cruel you'd be to just watch someone invest time and money on something that is so obviously wrong for them.

    Really, though, if a person isn't capable of drawing a bicycle frame project in a computer or at least doing the math before starting by hand, they really don't have the skills to produce a frame worth the time and effort to complete it. Spending about 3 minutes on a "design" that will then be worked on for months at a cost of hundreds or thousands of dollars is naive and stupid. That's not what I'm pushing on folks (but you seem to be). The drawing part is free, can be done sitting on the couch, and where all the decisions are made that define what the bike will be. ...and it can be done several times before ordering any material. No amount of welding or filing can change the mistakes made at that stage.

    Why we don't draw on paper | Peter Verdone Designs

    Of course, most folks don't understand this. It's not what they see on instagram. It's not what they see at the bike shows. I've gone to a lot of NAHBS shows and I can count on one hand how many design prints I've seen and all but one of them was at the Erikson booth. Manufacturers post "geometry" of bikes that communicate little about a bike. What do they know? The customer and builder don't care about the bike's design. Well, the hobby builder has to. It's actually important. You don't understand this yet. You haven't learned how to draw yet.

    Don't want to produce a real design plan? Fine. May I propose doing decoupage. There's really no way to screw it up and will provide hundreds of hours of enjoyment at little or no cost.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decoupage

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd View Post
    a hobby that they no business pursuing
    Gods above! The utter arrogance and entitlement which oozes out of that statement! Have you ever actually listened to yourself? If you're trying to wind people up and sound like a complete c^w asshat then it's "mission accomplished" with bells on. If you're trying to actually "teach" people with that attitude then it's a massive f***ing FAIL. What you've said doesn't even apply to someone running a business as a frame builder, regardless of the merits (or not) of their chosen process, but for something someone does for fun and pleasure in their spare time with their own money? No way! You really crossed a line with that one, buddy.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd View Post
    3. Only a fool draws a bike by hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd View Post
    The drawing part is free, can be done sitting on the couch,
    Pick 1, you can't argue both ways. Well, to be honest YOU can argue both ways, most rational humans wouldn't get away with it.


    I must admit i admire how low you can stoop to elicit a response. Telling someone what hobby they can and cant pursue is just outstanding.
    PVD teacher level = zero
    PVD troll level = 1000

    I'll not feed the troll anymore by replying to the rest of the complete drivel you posted.

  13. #13
    pvd
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuartm2 View Post
    You really crossed a line with that one, buddy.
    https://www.instagram.com/carn.bike/

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    Yes, it's my Instagram - it's in the footer of every comment I post here so "atta boy" for finding it. Shame it's not completely up to date on progress with my first build but I doubt your intent was to highlight that. So what was the purpose of your comment? Are you attempting to point out that I'm a complete novice in frame building? I've been perfectly open about that and have no shame in admitting that I know very little about the fine art of frame building. Perhaps you're trying to suggest that I have no business pursuing this hobby? Perhaps, if you use your words instead of trying to look like a witty smart-arse, you might do a better job of communicating what you mean. Bonus points if you can do it politely and articulately rather than continuing to be an "asshat".

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    Yeah i don't comment often, but lurk on this page a lot. There is a bunch of good stuff here. There is one thing that drives me to other sites when i have a Q and that is you PVD. Man, you might be a nice guy in real life, but damn do you come of like such a prick online.

    I'm 8 frames in, not very experienced and always have questions. I have asked them here in the past and had valuable answers, but i never post any work. Because i don't want a bollocking about whatever crap that PVD has his knickers in a twist about at the moment.

    PVD i'm sure you are a wealth of knowledge, i'm sure you tig weld like you were born inside the miller factory and i'm sure your bikes ride great. Maybe you are the geometrical visionary that you proclaim to be. But you don't communicate well, and come off very poorly because of it.

    I agree in some ways, CAD is way better than drawing stuff with pen and paper. But i'm young and grasp computers and all that easily. Some people don't, some people are happy to build a frame without, and i don't doubt that that they are able to build a great frame in a different way.

    What is your opinion on RS?

  16. #16
    pvd
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    If all folks are looking for is applause and congratulations, a discussion board is not the place to go. Your mom can probably handle that fine for you.

    This is where certain topics are to be discussed yet anything that isn't joyous congratulations or pedanticly repeating marketing hogwash is met with complaints. Seems pointless.

    Also, the OP was asking for criticism of his work. Why dont you folks give that a try?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd View Post
    If all folks are looking for is applause and congratulations, a discussion board is not the place to go. Your mom can probably handle that fine for you.
    I don't think anyone's asking for applause and congratulations unless it's warranted, in which case, it does no harm to offer it - "you get more flies with honey" applies here and, in fairness, your first comment included some. What gets my back up about your responses, and it doesn't sound like I'm alone in this, is that you're so forthright about your opinions and so dismissive of anyone who doesn't agree with them, to the point of outright offensiveness. I certainly don't come here for that and, with you as the one exception so far, I haven't encountered it - everyone else has been very friendly and welcoming, offering clear and useful advice in a respectful manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by pvd View Post
    This is where certain topics are to be discussed yet anything that isn't joyous congratulations or pedanticly repeating marketing hogwash is met with complaints. Seems pointless.
    You don't "discuss" though, do you? You dictate, you barrack and you're generally abrasive and communicate poorly, resorting to petty and cryptic copy/pasting of links and immature, absolutist statements instead of clearly explaining your point in a calm and rational manner. As a lurker for a while before signing-up, I hadn't seen any evidence of people demanding "pedantic repetition of marketing hogwash" in any posts I'd read. Perhaps you mean most people here aren't instantly dismissive of any bicycle manufacturer just because they don't build bikes with PVD's magic sauce? Perhaps that's because automatically assuming any professional in the bike industry who doesn't do what you do is a complete amateur who should stick to serving behind the counter at a fast-food joint is actually quite an offensive, dickish and just plain wrong thing to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by pvd View Post
    Also, the OP was asking for criticism of his work. Why dont you folks give that a try?
    The OP wasn't asking for "criticism", he was asking for "tips and insights". I didn't have those to offer on the main subject, being a novice, but I was able to point to a few areas in the videos he posted which I felt would benefit from improvement and suggested an example of something which I felt exemplified good amateur video production values and useful content for a complete novice frame builder like myself in the hope that he might it useful.

    Your first reply was actually reasonably well-delivered but then you went and ruined it in your follow-up by resorting to your usual form. It's such a shame that you seem unable to moderate yourself because you clearly have lots to offer by way of experience and knowledge. Unfortunately, everything I've read about you by others here suggests that you achieve the opposite of what you claim to want to do. That is a real shame.

  18. #18
    pvd
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    I suggest, then, when you believe that I am wrong on a topic that you produce a real and complete argument against it. I rarely acknowledge bull$git arguments, conjecture, or marketing based 'opinions'. I also supply mountains of evidence, drawings, and long form arguments in my links. I don't see that from many others.

    Also, my link to your Instagram says a lot about you and how we should take your opinions. You are a novice and you have little that you have chosen to offer. A single photo of a bad weld. I have significant experience and demonstrate and explain it. When you disagree with me, chances are that you are wrong. If you weren't (and could explain that) then I'd have something to listen to. Instead, you get upset. That's not my failing. Not all people have voices with listening to and it hurts when they find that out.

    Actually, you're not a bike expert | Peter Verdone Designs

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    I've said what needs to be said. So have others. Unless you change, you'll continue to deter people from participating in this forum. Your choice to continue to do that says so much about what kind of person you you have chosen to be. Certainly not the kind of person I want to waste my time engaging with further.

  20. #20
    pvd
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killick View Post
    2- In terms of design it is based on a Look t20 and Pinarello bolide hr. I want to try riding a frame with race oriented geo. the last track bike i build was more traditional road geo, and made from steel (Columbus Zona).
    This is an interesting part of your design process that it would be great to hear more about. Do you own or have you ridden these two bikes? Which aspects of each of their handling did you want to reproduce in your new frame and what, if anything, did you change? This is the kind of information that's really interesting. I went through a similar process when designing my first build, working from a point of reference of a few bikes I own to arrive at the final result. I don't yet know if the results will match the intent but I'm looking forward to finding out.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd View Post
    Got it.
    Somehow I think you haven’t.

    You love this forum as it gives you chance to flex your frame design muscles, yet you are single handedly the biggest reason people don’t post. And without posts there will be less visitors, less visitors will then obviously mean that your flex will go unobserved. Seppuku has never been so sweet.

  23. #23
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    Umm, kinda getting a hot in here.

    Actually, how you draw means diddly squat.

    I am a bit older than PVD, but got to draw correctly according to the technology of the day. With a pencil.
    I am not a technology buff so did not grow into the new forms of creating drawings.
    What works for me is fine.
    But I would encourage younger folk to use the current forms drawing, but this is not to say that either is better.

    With frames I start with a doddle drawing.
    Then out comes my folder A4 paper and protactor and scale rule. You can do anything. I am only looking at center points initially then draw a full scale drawing that I detail.
    Many of us old school types have used chalk and work bench tops to achieve what we wanted to 'see' dimensionally.

    So, is there more than one way to do a 'drawing'?

    Absolutely, so why PVD do you knock a starter from using whatever resources he has at hand?

    Kinda meaningless really.

    I would like to see this project moving forward, so OP, please put this hot air behind you and take up the good points offered and probably in light of moving forward, start a new thread to get back on track.

    Eric
    If I don't make an attempt, how will I know if it will work?

  24. #24
    pvd
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Malcolm View Post
    Actually, how you draw means diddly squat.
    This link was shared earlier in the thread.

    Why we don't draw on paper | Peter Verdone Designs

  25. #25
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    Nice work everyone, we’ve scared another potential contributor away. It’s been fun, I guess we will see each other again when the next new poster shows up.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Having been through a similar experience with my first post back in March of this year and, feeling a little bruised and a little less keen to post here as a result, I probably fall under the "should have known better" category and just not responded to an obvious attempt at triggering conflict. I've adjusted my account settings to avoid being presented with that situation in future.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd View Post
    3. Only a fool draws a bike by hand. As seen in the links provided. If that is the only way to produce a 1:1, the calculations should be produced by a spreadsheet prior to drawing.
    Isn't that what we're talking about here though? The OP was clearly working from a Bikecad drawing. I DRAW my bikes by hand 1:1 for reference during build, but I DESIGN in BikeCad. Once the design is done, I draw it out by hand. Call me a fool if you want, but I live in a small center without ready access to a large format plotter. Drafting it by hand takes < 15 minutes and is way easier and less error prone than tiling up 8.5" x 11" sheets of paper.

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    This is not how I expected this to turn out. lol

    I called it a track bike because it will be used at my local velodrome, provided it opens up this year. I'm really looking forward to learning how to race/ ride on a track. I have a strong desire to try my hand at a kilo and individual pursuit race, at my local track.

    In terms of frame design, I'm not gods gift to bicycle design, so i use other frames for inspiration/ ideas. The reason is used the look t20 as a reference is because the bike has a steeper seat tube angle and a slacker head tube angle then the "fixie" I currently ride. i have never ridden the Look or any other "race" Oriented frame. My current steel fixed gear road bike has seat tube and head tube of 73 degrees. I want to see if I can feel or notice a difference in the handling/ how the bike rides. I'm sure that's not the "correct way" to build/ design a bike, but I don't really care. I try different tire, widths, models and pressures for the same reason, to see how it changes how it feels riding. I constantly change around most parts on my bikes for this reason. I may be a bit of a bike/ part hoarder, and this annoys my partner to no end lol.

    I will learn more about frame building, geo, and design by building something and trying it. If my frame turns out to be totally unrideable, I don't see it as a waste of time or money, just a good learning experience. To me its time and money well spent, because it a fun hobby that i enjoy doing. I'm looking to tip/ incites on others people processes and how i can use them to improve my own work.

    The Video production/ content.

    I filmed the whole build "series" a few weeks ago, and after trying to edit there are definitely this i will change for my next project (steel bikepacking MTB).

    this includes:

    1- trying to improve my editing/ scene cuts. I'm still trying to figure out how to use adobe premier, I'm definitely not a computer wizard,

    2- showing more of my "incorrect" design process/ choices, and why. I will try to go over this in a video were i ride/ build up the frame, with the same/ similar parts to my other frame. I will also try and explain what i would change for my next track bike.

    3- trying to figure out how to balance giving the relevant information but not being to long and boring. I'm not super comfortable talking to the camera lol.

    4- I'm sure there are many more things i will change lol

  29. #29
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    I've found over the years that the phrase "there's more than one way to skin a cat" applies to most things in life - I doubt frame design is much different in that regard. Doubly-so when you're doing it for pleasure on your own time so, if your approach works for you, it's probably "correct" enough and you can learn more along the way if it's what you want to do. I'd certainly keep a selection of 4-letter words in reserve for anyone who tells you you're not allowed to do this hobby because you're doing it wrong

    As a complete novice in this field (but with a couple of decades experience in another), your process of arriving at your planned geometry: working from a known bike and changing it to achieve the handling characteristics you want; and your attitude of embracing the possibility that it will suck when you've finished, but that's ok because it's a learning experience, makes a lot of sense to me. But, hey, what do I know? I'm still building my first bike

  30. #30
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    Killick, you describe your desire to ride a 'killer kilo' and do the 4000m individual pursuit on a velodrome.
    You are indeed constructing a Track bike if you are contemplating those 2 sample designs from Look and Pinarello. If you want to ride from a standing start, 1000m at over 35mph with the last 100m bursting your lungs, good for you. The designs you are looking at comply to ICU rules, are proven and are simple to fabricate.
    The ICU have dictated traditional frame design so not much room to move. Saddle position is set to minimum forward placement (remember Obree cutting off the tip of his saddle to comply for his hour record). Timed events allow for aero bars but that's about it. You can't really go wrong doing a copy in tubes. The design numbers don't vary much.
    If you intend the run this bike out of it's intended track environment, adding a brake and having forkcrown and bridge clearances will need to be considered.

    Otherwise, have fun with your build.

    Eric
    If I don't make an attempt, how will I know if it will work?

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killick View Post

    I will learn more about frame building, geo, and design by building something and trying it. If my frame turns out to be totally unrideable, I don't see it as a waste of time or money, just a good learning experience. To me its time and money well spent, because it a fun hobby that i enjoy doing.
    l
    I'm in agreement with you, the chance to experiment with geometry will certainly give you an incite into how certain changes alter how the bike feels, and will be valuable info when you come to design your next frame! The chance of making it "unrideable" are pretty damn slim especially if you are following in the footsteps of what is currently allowable.

    Looking forward to seeing more of your trac,,,, sorry, "fixie" build

  32. #32
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    Killick,
    To go back to your original question, you asked how your setup/work flow compares to a professional setup. I wouldn't worry about comparing yourself to a pro, since if that's now what you're doing full time, you don't have to worry about it. Your setup looks a lot different than mine, but we're essentially doing very different things with our shops. I think you're going about the builds in a great way learning along the way, so don't worry too much if you're doing things the "right" way.



    And keep making the videos! We all need something interesting to watch in this weird time.
    Last edited by Erichimedes; 05-22-2020 at 11:29 AM. Reason: To mend feelings
    Myth Cycles handbuilt bike frames
    Durango, CO
    http://www.mythcycles.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erichimedes View Post
    Killick,

    And don't let Peter get to you. He makes a lot of noise, but at the end of the day, he's a hobby framebuilder and not part of the industry so his experience within the scope of this work is very different. Take everyone's input for what it is.
    Yep!

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