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Thread: Foes Weights

  1. #1
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    Foes Weights

    I've long been interested in a Foes bikes simply because they are one of the few companies that offers a low leverage rate. As a big guy, having the suspension take some stress off the shock, and therefore lowering the required pressure for sag seems like a benefit.

    However, most of the Foes products seem on the heavier side.

    Yes yes, I know people will say "but bike weight doesn't matter", but honestly this argument gets old. Bike weight does matter, especially when you're comparing two equally good bikes in the same price bracket and one weighs 5lbs more than the other.

    Do Foes owners think there is a possibility for a carbon Foes in the future?

    I'd like to see a 100-120mm 27.5+ compatible Foes frame that can hit 25lbs fairly easy. Think that could happen?
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    I've long been interested in a Foes bikes simply because they are one of the few companies that offers a low leverage rate. As a big guy, having the suspension take some stress off the shock, and therefore lowering the required pressure for sag seems like a benefit.

    However, most of the Foes products seem on the heavier side.

    Yes yes, I know people will say "but bike weight doesn't matter", but honestly this argument gets old. Bike weight does matter, especially when you're comparing two equally good bikes in the same price bracket and one weighs 5lbs more than the other.

    Do Foes owners think there is a possibility for a carbon Foes in the future?

    I'd like to see a 100-120mm 27.5+ compatible Foes frame that can hit 25lbs fairly easy. Think that could happen?
    I have been riding my Alpine Plus for about 2 months now and I absolutely love it. It isn't the lightest bike I've owned but I don't worry about beating it up either. I don't feel the extra pounds on the way up at all and in fact I set some personal records climbing on my Alpine, beating my times on a bike that was 6 pounds lighter. I wouldn't get so caught up in the numbers, get a bike that can stand up to the abuse you're going to throw at it. I don't think Foes will EVER make carbon bikes and I don't think "big guys" should ever ride 25 pound mountain bikes unless they don't mind walking home or back to the car. Give them a call and maybe you can demo one of their bikes. If you like how it rides, who cares how much it weighs? It's just a number. They are moving to San Dimas soon and there is plenty of good riding in the area.

  3. #3
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    Brent welded all frame itself. He is hardly ever build a carbon bike.

    why always these prejudices Foes bikes are heavy?
    A Foes you just get a frame. The rest do you choose yourself. As you determine the weight itself. When comparing the features with Speci, Trek, etc. Foes is not heavyer!

    My FXR275 ist 14 kg, 180 mm front/rear Suspension!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Foes Weights-img_2875.jpg  


  4. #4
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    I've ridden 25lbs bikes really damn hard and not had any issues with the durability. I've broken 35lbs bikes. Weight can be independent of reliability.

    Liteville utilizes lightweight and high quality tubing in their designs, and they aren't known for failure. Their 160mm 301 frame weighs 6.75lbs with shock.

    The problem with saying "who cares how much it weighs if its ride awesome" is that there are lots of awesome riding bikes out there. I ride a very inexpensive bike that has been both reliable and great riding. It hasn't held me back. The frame with shock weighs 7.5lbs. Why would I upgrade to a Foes to get a heavier bike and lighter wallet? That's stupid.

    If bikes companies want our business they should offer more than a "great ride", they should offer a competitive weight, a versatile frame (275+ or 29), good reliability, great service and a price point that those things make seem like a bargain.

    I think Foes offers a great product, but I'm not convinced on that alone. I want a bike that doesn't have me envying my friends carbon rides. I want a bike that when I do an XC race, I don't say "damn this thing is heavy!" I want a bike that years from now is still lighter than most, better riding, and versatile enough to run 275x3.25 tires or 29+.

    EDIT: Maybe someone will come back at me with some definitive frame weights of the Alpine Plus and Mixer and I'll be put in my place.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    I've ridden 25lbs bikes really damn hard and not had any issues with the durability. I've broken 35lbs bikes. Weight can be independent of reliability.

    Liteville utilizes lightweight and high quality tubing in their designs, and they aren't known for failure. Their 160mm 301 frame weighs 6.75lbs with shock.

    The problem with saying "who cares how much it weighs if its ride awesome" is that there are lots of awesome riding bikes out there. I ride a very inexpensive bike that has been both reliable and great riding. It hasn't held me back. The frame with shock weighs 7.5lbs. Why would I upgrade to a Foes to get a heavier bike and lighter wallet? That's stupid.

    If bikes companies want our business they should offer more than a "great ride", they should offer a competitive weight, a versatile frame (275+ or 29), good reliability, great service and a price point that those things make seem like a bargain.

    I think Foes offers a great product, but I'm not convinced on that alone. I want a bike that doesn't have me envying my friends carbon rides. I want a bike that when I do an XC race, I don't say "damn this thing is heavy!" I want a bike that years from now is still lighter than most, better riding, and versatile enough to run 275x3.25 tires or 29+.

    EDIT: Maybe someone will come back at me with some definitive frame weights of the Alpine Plus and Mixer and I'll be put in my place.
    From the Foes website:

    Alpine Plus: Frame and shock weight: 7 lb. 13 oz./3.54 kg (with hardware, size med)

    Mixer Trail: Frame and shock weight: 7 lb. 4 oz./3.28 kg (with hardware, size med)
    Mixer Enduro: Frame and shock weight: 8 lb. 6 oz./3.8 kg (with hardware, size med)

  6. #6
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    Foes bikes do ride far lighter than the scale says they should, except for the Shaver 29, something about that frame didn't quite work as well as all the other Foes I've ridden. Back in 02-03 I rode a foes fly as my main XC bike for 1 1/2 years, 11 lb frame 39 lb build, the longest, highest altitude gain rides I've ever done were on that bike.
    I have a friend I've ridden with off and on for 20 years that weighs 225 lbs and never broke an aluminum frame, he started worrying about bike weights, bought a tall boy (on hid 3rd frame last I spoke with him) a Cube 6" frame (second frame) I'm not that interested in current carbon offerings.
    I've often thought that Brent Foes expertise in crafting bucks to shape his aluminum frame tubes could be used to make a mold for carbon bikes, but Foes would have to hire some serious experts to pull that off or invest otherwise in the steep learning curve.

  7. #7
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    Foes bikes prioritize frame stiffness above all else IME. I'm suspicious of those listed weights above, I'd expect them to be at least a few ounces heavier, especially when not equipped with the lightest possible fox air shock.

    The low-leverage thing was blown away out of proportion for a while, thankfully, Foes has throttled that back. There are few advantages to super-low leverage rate, as it significantly increases the drag from the bushings/pivots, even things like the shock shafts, and makes finding the right shock lb difficult, as instead of shock range from say 300-800lbs, now it's 250-400lbs, which means you have to use smaller increments, which is harder to control. And you end up with a massively long shock when you are those low 2:1 leverage ratios, so add a few more ounces to lug around. To some extent it's a good thing to help accommodate heavier riders, but it was taken way too far back in the past.

    Foes has come a long way though, unfortunately Brent thought the position sensitive valve that would not blow off in choppy terrain of the Curnut shock design was a good thing, and while they did use the "platform" to make the bikes pedal better, this overall was a very bad turn for the company IMO and it took a while for them to get out of the "single-pivot with no rate change and a Curnut shock" rut. Once they did, they were making good bikes. The other issue I had was an insanely long small diameter bolt used in the scissor linkage on my bike, there was just no way this was ever going to work well in practice, and it bent often. This was back in the early 2000s though and Foes has done a 180 to linkage-controlled (for shock rate) designs in their suspension philosophy with their more modern offerings.

    As 1x drivetrains have gotten more popular, the advantages with dual link and horst link bikes have gotten much smaller, so the simple, stout and efficient single pivot is back, with good suspension and characteristics. Then add the legendary Foes stiffness and it might be what you are looking for. It's not going to end up carbon-light, but it's the one bike (company) I'd put up against any other carbon bike in terms of frame stiffness.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  8. #8
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    Brent Foes is a welder. I doubt he'll ever get into carbon. Not his expertise.

  9. #9
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    My new Foes mixer is the stiffest frame I have ever ridden. Being 235lb that says alot and results in quick handling and holding lines up/down tech. The foes single pivot is very efficient

    I am at 31.5lb with pedals and some mud and 2.4 tires, size large. DVO front and rear. No CF rims or bars or cranks.

  10. #10
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    My FXR weighed in at 29 lbs. and was rode pretty hard for years and never had any problems. And as stated before both of my Foes ride lighter then their weight would suggest but always felt very solid.
    Hoping my new mixer can be at 29 lbs. or less as I'm building it with a mix of strong light parts.
    Looking forward to this new design.

  11. #11
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    New design? As in...the current Mixer? or is there a new Mixer on the horizon?
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    No just the current design but the 2017 model will have a lower stand over height. A couple of small tweaks as customer service told me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    I've long been interested in a Foes bikes simply because they are one of the few companies that offers a low leverage rate. As a big guy, having the suspension take some stress off the shock, and therefore lowering the required pressure for sag seems like a benefit.

    However, most of the Foes products seem on the heavier side.

    Yes yes, I know people will say "but bike weight doesn't matter", but honestly this argument gets old. Bike weight does matter, especially when you're comparing two equally good bikes in the same price bracket and one weighs 5lbs more than the other.

    Do Foes owners think there is a possibility for a carbon Foes in the future?

    I'd like to see a 100-120mm 27.5+ compatible Foes frame that can hit 25lbs fairly easy. Think that could happen?
    I am not sure what you mean with leverage rate, if you mean that there is low leverage ratio, there might be so that the Foes frames have low ratio. I was also looking for a bike suitable for my fairly high weight, 260 lbs. Also braking a lof of bikes both aluminium and carbon frames. All frames are braking in the compression zone in the rear triange between chainstay and seat stay. Was really happy with the Foes for a while, but really disappointed when the Foes frame also broke in the exactly same place. I have tried light weight frames and the other end of scale, Foes frame. I went from a 140/150 travel Foes weighing around 15kg to a carbon Scott 160/160 travel weighing 13 kg. It is difficult to tell what is the difference, but the main thing is that the Scott feels more playful.
    I do not know if it has to do with the weight? Another thing is that the suspension on the Foes is not as progressive as you might want it to be. So it will suit air shock better than a coil. Actually it is really important to choose the correct air shock. The best shock for the Foes was the Fox DPS Evol. Tried Fox DHX2 coil, but it was bottoming out to easy, due to the less progressive suspension. I was also experiencing bottoming out with the air shocks, but did not try to tune the air chamber.

  14. #14
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    You buy a Foes and people with Carbon bikes will envy you. I know this. I own one. My Alpine Plus set up as a plus bike with 50mm wide Scrapper rims, Hadley Hubs and 3.0 Nic tires, DVO suspension, DVO dropper, XO1 Eagle group. Bike comes in at 30 pounds but it rides much lighter. Don't let the numbers fool you. I can easily reduce the bike weight by 3 or more pounds by changing the wheels and tires to 29er.

    Dont worry about frame weight. Focus on wheel weight.

    Cheers.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rumblefish2010 View Post
    I am not sure what you mean with leverage rate, if you mean that there is low leverage ratio, there might be so that the Foes frames have low ratio. I was also looking for a bike suitable for my fairly high weight, 260 lbs. Also braking a lof of bikes both aluminium and carbon frames. All frames are braking in the compression zone in the rear triange between chainstay and seat stay. Was really happy with the Foes for a while, but really disappointed when the Foes frame also broke in the exactly same place. I have tried light weight frames and the other end of scale, Foes frame. I went from a 140/150 travel Foes weighing around 15kg to a carbon Scott 160/160 travel weighing 13 kg. It is difficult to tell what is the difference, but the main thing is that the Scott feels more playful.
    I do not know if it has to do with the weight? Another thing is that the suspension on the Foes is not as progressive as you might want it to be. So it will suit air shock better than a coil. Actually it is really important to choose the correct air shock. The best shock for the Foes was the Fox DPS Evol. Tried Fox DHX2 coil, but it was bottoming out to easy, due to the less progressive suspension. I was also experiencing bottoming out with the air shocks, but did not try to tune the air chamber.
    DVO Topaz works very well too. You can tune the thing yourself to perfect it.

  16. #16
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    Running the DVO diamond and Topaz on 2017 mixer trail..
    And this combo rocks...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by fxr man View Post
    Running the DVO diamond and Topaz on 2017 mixer trail..
    And this combo rocks...
    Absolutely. I completely agree with you. My Alpine rocks with the set up too.

    Cheers

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