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  1. #1
    jalepenio jimenez
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    CBD Oil - no THC and mounting evidence for it's effectiveness

    Recent state votes legalizing marijuana has brought attention to certain properties of the hemp plant that were little known to most of us up until recently.
    Cannabinoids (cannabis oil,) better known as CBD oil, is being found to aid in chronic pain relief as well as treating stress and other ailments (read CANCER) without the side affects of many prescription drugs.
    Charlottes Web (the Stanley brothers) of Boulder, CO are producing, promoting, and marketing the stuff online.
    Another aid is CBD salve, used as an analgesic (pain relief.)
    I have had pretty good results in treating muscle and nerve pain with the salve, and am taking the oil daily for other issues.
    Anyone else using this stuff?
    White Clouds - Heart of Idaho

  2. #2
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    I use a few drops of tincture in the water bottle to control seizures. CBD only wasn't as effective.

  3. #3
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    I've been using CBD cream for this itchy spot I got on my back recently. Might be shingles. Anyway, doc gave me some drugs that didn't do anything but the CBD cream is working pretty well to stop itching and burning.
    I've got some drops at home. Took them once and didn't feel anything. I guess its something you need to do regularly to start feeling a benefit.

  4. #4
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    My wife got us started using capsules of Rick Simpson's Oil (RSO) which is essentially hash oil made by extracting the goodness from (legally obtained) buds using 190 proof organic cane alcohol although other solvents such as butane are used as well. RSO has THC which is actually more effective at pain relief, itchy spots, etc although it def gets you high. I take one before dinner for insomnia and it works like a dream, so to speak. Sleep thru the night, get up the next day and feel great. I've been using this every night for about 18 months with no ill effects, loss of strength, etc, and had a physical a month ago with nothing negtive in the bloodwork/exam. I discussed it with my doc who has no problems with the use of RSO. There are a lot of positive health implications from using it as well, here's a link:
    https://healthyhempoil.com/rick-simp...-oil-for-sale/

    If you're going to use it I'd suggest making your own vice purchasing it online/wherever since it's not only easy to make, you'll know what's in it.

    Great stuff.

  5. #5
    jalepenio jimenez
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    Right on - I'm glad to be seeing this happening in my lifetime, kind of like seeing all the bike trails that have been built in the last 10 - 20 years!

    CBD and RSO are the same product, other than for the THC.

    Charlottes Web uses two different extraction processes - isopropyl alcohol and carbon dioxide. Both yield relatively pure results, with CO2 being the safest means of production. The impurities result more from growing and cultivating the plants, than from processing them.

    Right now it's hard to get commercial oils without the risk of outside chemicals being used, but imbibing the oils are no different than buying and smoking medical marijuana, or any marijuana for that matter, as it all has whatever chemicals were used on it when it was grown.
    White Clouds - Heart of Idaho

  6. #6
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    I just googled and found that Texas will allow the use of CBD oil to treat intractable epilepsy sometime in late 2017, sparking interest in Texas to grow and process marijuana to make CBD oil. A few licenses will be issued to commercial operations for this purpose.

    This will be very tightly regulated, with "a special registry of doctors who treat epilepsy and a list of patients already diagnosed with intractable epilepsy". If I understand this correctly, it means the CBD oil would not be available to physicians in a more general way, to eliminate the possibility of off-label prescribing.

    Kinky Friedman did run for Texas agricultural commissioner in 2014, on a reasonable platform: "he said his top campaign issue — legalizing marijuana and its sister crop, hemp — would help keep farmers afloat because the plants need relatively less water to grow and are in high demand." Alas, Kinky didn't make the Democratic runoff.

    I can't see Texas legalizing marijuana any time soon -- we're in thrall to socially conservative lawmakers -- but Texas is a deeply agricultural state. When marijuana is legalized some day, the impetus will be from the commercial agricultural sector seeking big $$$ profit $$$.

    Our current agricultural commissioner doesn't believe in medical majijuana, but he's fine with the Jesus Shot. This beaten up wreck of a rodeo cowboy wandered across the border to Oklahoma to get a $300 Jesus Shot on the taxpayers dime. When asked if the Jesus Shot worked, Sid said, "It's worked out good".

    One Jesus Shot is claimed to cure all pain forever. You can get the Jesus Shot only from Dr. Mike, an ex felon (income tax evasion, health care fraud for starters) who had his medical license revoked in Ohio.
    Dr. Mike isn't saying what's in a Jesus Shot, but a past employee says it's a mixture of two anti-inflammatory drugs (Dexamethasone and Kenalog) and Vitamin B12.

    Sid Miller would be better off with CBD oil, I think.
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    You all need to move to WA, you can choose your tonic, open seven days a week, at the Happy Croppe Shop.

  8. #8
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    A local guy was recently arrested for selling his medical stash.

    What would be the benefit to the buyer (other than a possible medical condition not recognized by the state)? Isn't the THC removed?
    Stick around if you're housebroken...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    A local guy was recently arrested for selling his medical stash.

    What would be the benefit to the buyer (other than a possible medical condition not recognized by the state)? Isn't the THC removed?
    Here in AZ, the buyer would save the cost (about $250 yearly) of a MMJ card.

    I don't know if THC can be "removed" unless it's done by mixing different strains during the plant growth cycle.

  10. #10
    jalepenio jimenez
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    I was given a tour of the Charlotte's Web production facility in Boulder last month.
    They produce their CBD oil out of the hemp plant, which contains nothing more than a trace of THC to begin with. Not sure if any of the oils are 100% THC free.

    Their CBD oil is available through their website, but as you will see, it's not cheap, but then neither is an ounce of pot, so don't let the sticker shock deter you if their CBD oil might make life a little better for you.
    White Clouds - Heart of Idaho

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by milliesand View Post
    Here in AZ, the buyer would save the cost (about $250 yearly) of a MMJ card.

    I don't know if THC can be "removed" unless it's done by mixing different strains during the plant growth cycle.
    Seems I've repeatedly heard the MM is THC-free, but I've never had a need to investigate it further.
    Stick around if you're housebroken...

  12. #12
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    The mom who lobbied relentlessly to get the Texas legislature to pass the law for CBD oil for those with intractable epilepsy is now in great distress because the relentless regulations associated with growing the source crop and processing it for CBD oil is creating a product so costly that it is financially out of reach for most people. Her daughter has constant seizures.
    Last edited by June Bug; 05-13-2018 at 06:50 PM.
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    I bought some CBD oil for sleep/shoulder pain a few weeks ago. Supposedly, it had only trace amounts of THC. I tried 2 drops - nothing, 4 drops - nothing, 8 drops - nothing. Then I used whole syringe (maybe 20 drops?) and was stoned 45 minutes later. Can't say it did anything special. I think there is a ton of hype around all this stuff. I've tried different strains of cannabis (sative, indica, etc..) and I have to say that the effect is exactly the same stoned feeling I got smoking pot in college 35 years ago which is cool if that is something that helps you. In my case, give me the drug that energizes me and makes me lucid (haven't found it yet); pot/thc just makes makes me sleepy and stupid. Chris.

  14. #14
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    Wasn't effective for me. I tried the tincture for over a month. Many drops. Worked neither for soreness or pain. Waste of money.


    Pretty sure there are lot people who are making money off CBD hyping this product on forums. Don't believe the hype.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AC/BC View Post
    Wasn't effective for me. I tried the tincture for over a month. Many drops. Worked neither for soreness or pain. Waste of money.


    Pretty sure there are lot people who are making money off CBD hyping this product on forums. Don't believe the hype.
    Yes, but good lucking getting a believer to see the light.

    I work in a Mental Health Triage, I can't tell you how many folks insist these oils work, but like all things it depends on how much you use; take enough and you'll notice something...

    The issue I have with drugs and alcohol is that it impairs cognition, can lead to addiction, and it does nothing to treat a chemical imbalance or a physiological need.

    As a famous personality once said: "Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son".

    But for some people it's their way of life.

    I prescribe exercise, staying active, avoiding stressful situations and stressful people, and above all don't sweat the stupid stuff; cuz it's all stupid stuff.

  16. #16
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    Confirmation bias + placebo effect = studies that prove effectiveness

    Many who seek external solutions to treat internal problems buy into the next newest and greatest cure marketing hype.

    Regardless on the outcome of any study, if you believe something helps you feel better, and because of that belief you actually do feel better, then that product is actually effective.
    Bicycles don't have motors.

  17. #17
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    If you can use cbd effectively you should, it's far better for you than pharmaceuticals. Impaired cognition comes in many forms...
    Last edited by bsieb; 01-30-2018 at 01:33 PM.
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  18. #18
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    There is also evidence that an "entourage effect", based upon the whole plant, not just CBD, is beneficial for some maladies.

    I'm NOT a stoner by any means and don't like to be "high", but a particular strain saved my colon.
    Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked over your grave.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsieb View Post
    If you can use cbd effectively you should, it's far better for you than pharmaceuticals. Impaired cognition comes in many forms...
    Far better for you than pharmaceuticals? Hmm, might I suggest carrots for you nearsightedness and bagbalm in place of shoes?

    So silly, to classify all medications as less effective than a homeopathic remedy, then one day you have a serious illness and it’s suddenly “please, give me whatever it takes to save me”.

    Nothing like a misinformed public to misrepresent the truth.

    Like I tell my patients, I don’t really care if you take my advice, it’s your body/mind and you have the freedom to choose, but if you want to be healthier and live longer, it’s worth considering what I suggest.

    I did get extensive medical training and I do practice this medical thing all the time, but who knows, maybe people can learn more than a medical professional by reading the internet, yeah, sure they can

  20. #20
    saddlemeat
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    ^Like I said...
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  21. #21
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    Appropriate testing on Cannabis has never really been done by the FDA, nor anyone else. Its' ridiculous Schedule 1 status disallows for any medical use, while it's highly likely that CBD truly does have anti-inflammatory properties and could be developed further.

    It's also highly likely that there are therapeutic uses for other compounds in the plant, including THC. Until the Feds get their heads out of their asses and move out of the 30's era Reefer Madness mentality, we may never really know.
    Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked over your grave.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by June Bug View Post
    The mom who lobbied relentlessly to get the Texas legislature to pass the law for CBD oil for those with intractable epilepss is now in great distress because the relentless regulations associated with growing the source crop and processing it for CBD oil is creating a product so costly that it is financially out of reach for most people. Her daughter has constant seizures.
    Yet another reason to move from Texas to Colorado.

    Seriously, if your kid is having seizures and the state you live in is stuck at around 1952, it might be time to move.

    I'm not pot user, but I have no problem with what Colorado has done. You want CBD/THC whatever? Have at it. Much better than opiods. I read an article in the Wall Street Journal last week about a guy who bought a house in 2005 in Mobile, AL. It went way, way underwater after the crash, so he couldn't get rid of it and had to rent it out. Within a few years, his brand new subdivision was full of pill addicts, and one of his tenants was busted for being a huge source. When you look at the total f*&^ing ridiculousness of a situation where McKesson has been fined hundreds of million of dollars at least twice for pushing opiods, but they are still in business, while people in Texas/Alabama/etc. are in jail for a couple of joints, it is infuriating.

    Don't like my comment about Texas being stuck in the 1950's? Read this: Scale of opioid epidemic in Texas likely obscured by bad data, experts say | The Daily Texan

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Far better for you than pharmaceuticals? Hmm, might I suggest carrots for you nearsightedness and bagbalm in place of shoes?

    So silly, to classify all medications as less effective than a homeopathic remedy, then one day you have a serious illness and it’s suddenly “please, give me whatever it takes to save me”.

    Nothing like a misinformed public to misrepresent the truth.

    Like I tell my patients, I don’t really care if you take my advice, it’s your body/mind and you have the freedom to choose, but if you want to be healthier and live longer, it’s worth considering what I suggest.

    I did get extensive medical training and I do practice this medical thing all the time, but who knows, maybe people can learn more than a medical professional by reading the internet, yeah, sure they can
    So what is your take on the over 20,000 people per year who die from prescription painkiller overdoses?

  24. #24
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    According to NORML, there has been extensive research studies on the marijuana plant for quite a while. Some of which were carried out in govt labs and there is no reason to share their results. I think one of the studies involved chimpanzees and trying to determine the LD50. It was something on the magnitude of several pounds in ridiculously short amount of time. There is an Israel lab that has done a far amount of work for decades.

    I was under the impression that CBDs are made in about the same concentration as THCs, depending on the strain. I was told this by a analytical chemist who previously worked in a lab I was a part of who had gone on to one of the MM companies in MN. His job was to grow various strains and use chromatographic methods (supercritical fluid extraction IIRC) to separate the compounds in the plant. The compounds of interest would then be concentrated and combined with the extracts from other extractions to make a homogenous product of known concentration for those with a prescription. One of my previous PIs and another PI who collaborates with him are in a consulting position with the company. I also know someone on campus who is growing hemp and his PI, but his interest is more in creating a database and support for commercial hemp growers to provide material for products for industries other than medical. I'll have to ask him about the content of CBD in hemp. It may be one of the compounds he is looking for when using the GC-MS I see him sitting in front of for days on end.

    Pharmaceutical chemistry has a long history of looking for and isolating compounds of interest from plants that are utilized in homeopathic and traditional medicines. Taxol is a chemo therapy drug isolated from the pacific Yew tree. Opium from the poppy plant from which chemists synthesized morphine, heroin, etc. There are many other examples. The industry also looks at chemical synthesis of known compounds occurring in nature. Additionally, the industry works quite hard at making new compounds and testing them. Viagra for instance started out as something for hypertension and heart issues when the test subjects came back and mentioned the side effect that is now the main reason it is prescribed. We still don't don't know the mechanism by which Tylenol works. I'm not saying that we should be overly wary of the pharmaceutical industry by any means. I'm taking medications to deal with hypertension, cholesterol and high levels of triglycerides. However, the industry does not have it all figured out. Homeopathic medicine has less figured out to be fair, but that doesn't mean it has nothing to offer either.

    Blame Nixon for wanting to get political dissidents (hippies) off the streets, into jails and away from the polls. Granted, the madness was already there as mentioned, but it was a politically motivated action to list is as a schedule 1 drug.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  25. #25
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    Talked to the student I know working on hemp varieties. CBD concentration in some hemp strains can be 1-3% vs 0.3% THC which is the acceptable threshold for hemp. The drug varieties will produce something around 12-15% CBD and correspondingly THC. Even the dominant CBD drug strains will obviously have more than the acceptable level of THC for field production which is necessary to produce volume without the exorbitant costs for drug production. IIRC the conversational details, Charlotte's Web took a drug strain and crossed it several times with a hemp variety to try and retain the CBD production while lowering the THC levels to the acceptable threshold. It's interesting to me that both compounds are controlled supposedly by a single gene. I find that interesting as typically there is redundancy in plants for various compounds.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    There is also evidence that an "entourage effect", based upon the whole plant, not just CBD, is beneficial for some maladies.
    I don't find this surprising at all. Science can sometimes get lost in the manipulation of one variable at a time which can be short sighted and not necessarily applicable in the real world. That said, science is cool.

    In vitro, in vivo, in silico...
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    Blame Nixon for wanting to get political dissidents (hippies) off the streets, into jails and away from the polls. Granted, the madness was already there as mentioned, but it was a politically motivated action to list is as a schedule 1 drug.
    You're not wrong, but the issue goes back way further to a 30's era US Federal Bureau of Narcotics chief, Harry Anslinger. The roots of the illicitness of the "drug" were actually motivated by racism, among other factors.

    Egads! White women were sleeping with black men. Black men were smoking reefer in the Jazz clubs where white women went to dance. The connection was obvious. Marijuana was the cause.

    We have got to evolve, right?
    Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked over your grave.

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    ^^^ Anslinger, incidentally, once said that you could grow enough Marijuana in a Toledo Window Box, to get the entire state of Ohio stoned.

    Many years later George Carlin made a comedy album called, Toledo Window Box.
    Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked over your grave.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    You're not wrong, but the issue goes back way further to a 30's era US Federal Bureau of Narcotics chief, Harry Anslinger. The roots of the illicitness of the "drug" were actually motivated by racism, among other factors.

    Egads! White women were sleeping with black men. Black men were smoking reefer in the Jazz clubs where white women went to dance. The connection was obvious. Marijuana was the cause.

    We have got to evolve, right?
    Oh, let's not forget that cocaine also had a role in those politics during the roaring '20's.

    Unfortunately, there were too many things that were used to diminish people of other cultures, creeds and color in order to maintain some supposed status quo of power, control and money. I certainly hope we can evolve and more importantly that we choose to do so to make the world a better place...
    ...where mtb can subjugate other forms of riding.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    ^^^ Anslinger, incidentally, once said that you could grow enough Marijuana in a Toledo Window Box, to get the entire state of Ohio stoned.

    Many years later George Carlin made a comedy album called, Toledo Window Box.
    Yet another reason to listen to what George had to say...
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    Yet another reason to listen to what George had to say...
    As if we needed more. A man WAAAY ahead of his time.
    Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked over your grave.

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    The original theme of this post was CBD oil, it has since been hijacked to essentially a medical marijuana theme. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING.
    CBD oil is made from the hemp plant, not the cannabis plant. They are closely related but not really the same. Hemp is used to make rope, fabric and other things. The hemp plant contains only .03% thc , which is the part that gets you high. Hemp oil, from which the CBD oil is derived is legal in 50 states as a nutritional supplement. Some of the cbd oil manufacturers go to the extra effort to remove the remaining thc from their products. This prevents possible positive drug tests.
    I have been using both an ointment and a sublingual tincture (under the tongue) for my arthritic hands for a few months. I would love to say that all my pain is gone, but I can't. There is a very significant reduction in the swelling of my fingers. This alone is worth the cost to me. The inflammation is reduced and I rarely have days that my joints just hurt all over. (unless I forget to take my dose for a few days)
    This is not a magic elixir for me but more of a significant step toward making my life better. I am 66 years old and have had arthritis since 25. I spent most of my career delivering food to restaurants and other institutions. My hands are so bent and crooked they look to be about 85 years old.
    P.S. I have taken a drug test after I started using cbd and was clean.

  33. #33
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    ^CBD is good stuff! I've had good results taking Tumeric, or curcumin, it's active ingredient, in gelcaps, for arthritis. The caps with ginger and black pepper also are more potent, I believe.
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    CBD cream is different from the oil you take under your tongue. The CBD cream when rubbed on painful knee from inflammation removed the pain for about 6 hours, comparable to an advil but without side effects. The oil for under the tongue did not work for my pain but the cream definitely worked. The CBD cream with THC is stronger than just the CBD cream. There is no psycho active effect in the cream to my knowledge. I think the oil you ingest is more for soothing nerves.
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    CBD (no THC) oil seems to work for my shoulder & knee pain when used topically. I wouldn't describe it as an immediate pain reliever since it seems to help more with inflamation instead (I think) so the pain is relieved in that way. Originally tried it orally but didn't work for me that way.

    I don't think THC should be legal or at least not in the strengths they market for medical use. Can't be good for the brain in that dose and on a regular basis...

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    With legalization comes increased regulation, and you may be relieved to hear that edibles are now restricted to more reasonable doses in California.

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    Does any recommend a certain brand cream?

  38. #38
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    I'm giving CBD a shot.

    Hemp CBD kind of sucks. I know its the most popular, but thats because its the most accessible. You can and should get your CBD from pot. Of course if your state doesnt allow it, the hemp is probably ok enough. If it is legal in your state, skip the hemp!

    While chemically similar, hemp doesnt have much actual CBD in it, so you need a ton of hemp to get a little CBD, which at face value is fine but the hemp plant is great at sucking out garbage from the ground it grows in. Everything from air pollution to agricultural chemicals, hemp sucks it up that that ends up in your extracts. Whatever else ends up in the hemp extract makes me feel agitated. Not a ton, but its not great. The cannabis extract doesnt do this at all.

    Cannabis based CBD also comes with no THC. Or with THC. In any concentration of any combination.

    I think it works for a lot of things, and I think it might work well for a lot of things. Its so crazy safe that I think its worth trying for whatever it might work for. Go for the THC one if you want too, its harmless.

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    I personally think the oral under the tongue CBD is snake oil after trying it from Floyds. The placebo effect is strong

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    Quote Originally Posted by AC/BC View Post
    Does any recommend a certain brand cream?
    Yeah. "Real Time Pain Relief." Check it out at www.rtpr.com.

    I THINK it works, but maybe I've only enjoyed the placebo effect. I discovered the stuff at an event, where this lady had a booth set up. She engaged me in conversation and set the hook. You 50+ guys have surely been roped in via this method at one time or another.

    Anyway, my shoulder had been hurting for a while, so charming woman massaged it with her magical elixir. I felt better. But who DOESN'T feel better after a lady massages whatever part ails you?

    The price was a lot, so I didn't buy any that day. After returning home, I shopped around, but the price was ALWAYS the same. I think it's an MLM operation and the prices are fixed. Regardless, time passed and eventually my back was hurting. It was bad enough that I couldn't fix it myself, so I ordered up the "Real Time Pain Relief" variety pack. You pay a lot, but you get a lot of stuff that may or may not be real.

    When my box of stuff arrived, I applied it, and after a few days my back was better. Did I feel better after each application? Yeah. Did it help heal my sore back? I don't know. Would my back have healed without it? Probably. As quickly? I don't know.

    Sorry I can't give you a definitive answer. But the next time I need such a product, I'm going to grab it off the shelf and put it to use.

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    Seems to work for my aches and pains from RA and just general getting old. I use the oil and put it in my coffee.

    J-

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    For quite a while I have been a 3 ibuprofen and 1 Tylenol a night guy for arthritis. I first tried a cbd cream rub for the arthritis in my left knee and hands. Seemed to work. For Father's Day my daughter gave me a bottle of cbd oil. After about 2 weeks I quit taking the ibuprofen and tylenol.

    As always, YMMV.

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    As a medical provider, I’m always amazed that anyone would believe that a single product could have so many benefits, treat so many conditions, and be better than what science can create in a lab.

    Just food for thought from someone in the biz...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    As a medical provider, I’m always amazed that anyone would believe that a single product could have so many benefits, treat so many conditions, and be better than what science can create in a lab.

    Just food for thought from someone in the biz...
    Attitude totally doesn't surprise me for someone who is "in the biz."

    J-

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    Quote Originally Posted by jjc155 View Post
    Attitude totally doesn't surprise me for someone who is "in the biz."

    J-
    I'm just a scientist -- basic research, don't care if I cure cancer or develop cold fusion -- but I'm a fan of evidence based decisions in real life, like medicine for instance. Very few of the claimed CBD effects have been subject to experiments that would allow evidence based decisions regarding its use. I'll just add that the placebo effect is real and I'm fine with that -- hell, I'd love to have a good explanation for why it's so effective. But sometimes you pay a lot for that placebo and it seldom works for long.
    "The plural of anecdote is not data." -- Attributed to various people in a variety of forms, but always worth remembering...

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    ^A lot/all of your science based pharmaceuticals have debilitating or fatal side effects over time, so if something as benign as cbd works for you, I would use it and never look back. Sheesh... take your meds dude.
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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Yet another reason to move from Texas to Colorado.

    Seriously, if your kid is having seizures and the state you live in is stuck at around 1952, it might be time to move.
    I'm still amazed that these parents didn't travel to Colorado and pick up a stash of medical grade CBD oil and bring it back for their kid, whose seizures were debilitating.

    My hope was that they were doing that all along, but apparently they were not, which is incomprehensible to me.
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    I can prescribe medications, drugs, placebo, therapy, or anything over the counter.

    I gain no benefits from how I prescribe, the only one that benefits is my patient, so yeah, I prescribe whatvworks best.

    I saw a lady in Triage this morning, she’s struggling with chronic pain, currently taking 40mg MEQ daily, lots of homeopathics, and a shite ton of Kratum.

    She came to Triage because she wanted help getting off Kratum .... it was making her psychotic.

    Being someone on the biz, I see more, do more, know more than a gullible consumer such as yourself.

    Do you honestly think that a consumer knows more, better, and sooner than a provider?

    Wow, that’s some ego playing...

    Let’s just say that us folks in the biz were acquainted with THC and it’s friends long before it became a thing.

    A bit of advice: avoid Kratum.

    A bit of wisdom that a teen on the spectrum concluded the other day:

    “So if you take pain medication, it stops working, then you need more, then it stops working, so then you hurt more than you did before taking pain medication?”

    Yup.

    I live in Nevada now, previously lived Washington, two states that have legalized marijuana. In both states I worked in the biz before, during, and after legalization. I’m not against legalization of marijuana any more than I’m against the legalization of alcohol; they are both equally bad for society.

    The beginning of the end came in the 1980’s when pain was added to the list of “vitals”. The problem lies in the fact that pain is not vital, ie it does not measure anything vital, it’s simply a perception.

    Pain will not kill you, but it does hurt.

    Quote Originally Posted by jjc155 View Post
    Attitude totally doesn't surprise me for someone who is "in the biz."

    J-
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    A good friend of mine got scared off of his high blood pressure medication a few months ago after the tainted med scare. He'd heard of people managing their high blood pressure with CBD oil; so he got a bottle and tried it out.

    He reports that a couple drops under the tongue twice a day has him completely off high blood pressure pharmaceuticals; and his blood pressure is even better than it was on the pharmaceuticals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsieb View Post
    ^A lot/all of your science based pharmaceuticals have debilitating or fatal side effects over time, so if something as benign as cbd works for you, I would use it and never look back.
    And you know that CBD is benign because...? I don't know that CBD does anything positive beyond placebo or negative 'cause it's full of random poisons -- and you don't either. The difference is that I'm not fooling myself about what I know.
    Quote Originally Posted by bsieb View Post
    Sheesh... take your meds dude.
    Seems like you could use a little more THC in your CBD.
    "The plural of anecdote is not data." -- Attributed to various people in a variety of forms, but always worth remembering...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptor View Post
    And you know that CBD is benign because...?
    Benign, LMAO. Name an effective pharmaceutical that is "benign".

    My wife had a couple of "benign" steroid shots for an ache in her shoulder, and now she has a cataract, caused by the steroids.

    There are shit tons of people with liver and kidney problems from taking standard doses of ibuprofen. Aspirin has ruined millions of stomachs.

    Tell us again about those "benign" pharmaceuticals they sell in Wyoming, where CBD oil will get you thrown in jail?

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Benign, LMAO. Name an effective pharmaceutical that is "benign".
    My wife had a couple of "benign" steroid shots for an ache in her shoulder, and now she has a cataract, caused by the steroids.
    There are shit tons of people with liver and kidney problems from taking standard doses of ibuprofen. Aspirin has ruined millions of stomachs.
    Tell us again about those "benign" pharmaceuticals they sell in Wyoming, where CBD oil will get you thrown in jail?
    Read for comprehension much? I never argued on the behalf of "benign" pharmaceuticals -- I argue for evidence base decisions in health care. Your wife was aware of the potential consequences of her steroid injection and made her decision based on the evidence -- it's a classic "reward versus risk" decision. If she wasn't aware of the risk of cataracts, then that's on her because the data is readily available. She gambled, she lost, and that sucks but it's also life -- so no whining allowed. There probably isn't a person over 50 where either they or their loved ones haven't had to make that sort of medical decision -- is the treatment worth the risk. But with FDA approved pharmaceuticals you most always know the risk versus reward, or even if there's actually a reward beyond a placebo effect. There's good guidance out there for use of pharmaceuticals that have side-effects -- use ibuprofen right and you won't get liver/kidney damage, use aspirin correctly and it really is the miracle drug. What guidance based on scientific evidence is there for CBD use? For various reasons we don't have it and I'm all for having that evidence. Maybe it is benign, maybe it causes cancer after 6 years of steady use, maybe it blows up your liver in 10 years, maybe it's the proverbial fountain of youth. We don't know.
    "The plural of anecdote is not data." -- Attributed to various people in a variety of forms, but always worth remembering...

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    sorry but you need to do some research. Both Asprin and Ibuprofen taken only as directed and used off and on for long periods is well known for causing issues. That's why the information is well known about the side effects. The effect each person differently though.

    Also blaming a patient for not knowing all the risks, most people put their trust in their doctors, if the doctor doesnt cover all the risks involved because some are more rare, that's not the patients fault.

    And it's already well proven by studies around the world and throughout recorded history that cannabis based treatments have been effective and that it has very few risks involved. Far less than anything synthetic. But like anything there is a moderation level but the level it takes to cause any real damage is quite hard to achieve and would be hard pressed (if any evidence even exists) for cannabis/hemp us has ever caused serious health issues or death. All is from using other drugs with it.

    Personally I'm pretty irritated that it's so hard to gain access in my state. I spent 5 days in the Los Angeles area a week and a half ago for grandmothers funeral. I'm am currently recovering from major shoulder surgery a month ago and prescribed opiate based pain meds. Since California has legalized use, I decided to try some on day 1 of my trip. Didnt need a pain pill the rest of the trip until shortly before our flight home on day 5 because obviously I cant have or use it here. No ill feeling side effects, nothing. But unlike my prescribed pain meds I could stop it at will and not have issues. So I sit dealing with pain because I dont like how any pain meds mess with my stomach and such on continuous use. Cannabis, took about 10/1 a couple hours before bed and was fine for the entire night and other than morning stiffness and soreness which went away once I was up and moving, needed nothing again till before bed.

    Something that's far safer then alcohol, much more natural and been used for 1000s of years vs government controlled for profit, ya I'll stick to more natural. Anyone to the contrary really needs to do more research and stop trusting the FDA so much, cause they arent out for us that's for damn sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    sorry but you need to do some research. ... Also blaming a patient for not knowing all the risks, most people put their trust in their doctors, if the doctor doesnt cover all the risks involved because some are more rare, that's not the patients fault.
    Irony alert!

    This defense is weak -- the old saying "nothing is more valuable than good health" is true in my experience and why anyone goes forward with healthcare decisions without doing due diligence is beyond me. But it's the American way -- blame someone else for bad times and ill-considered decisions.
    "The plural of anecdote is not data." -- Attributed to various people in a variety of forms, but always worth remembering...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptor View Post
    Read for comprehension much? I never argued on the behalf of "benign" pharmaceuticals -- I argue for evidence base decisions in health care. Your wife was aware of the potential consequences of her steroid injection and made her decision based on the evidence -- it's a classic "reward versus risk" decision. If she wasn't aware of the risk of cataracts, then that's on her because the data is readily available. She gambled, she lost, and that sucks but it's also life -- so no whining allowed. There probably isn't a person over 50 where either they or their loved ones haven't had to make that sort of medical decision -- is the treatment worth the risk. But with FDA approved pharmaceuticals you most always know the risk versus reward, or even if there's actually a reward beyond a placebo effect. There's good guidance out there for use of pharmaceuticals that have side-effects -- use ibuprofen right and you won't get liver/kidney damage, use aspirin correctly and it really is the miracle drug. What guidance based on scientific evidence is there for CBD use? For various reasons we don't have it and I'm all for having that evidence. Maybe it is benign, maybe it causes cancer after 6 years of steady use, maybe it blows up your liver in 10 years, maybe it's the proverbial fountain of youth. We don't know.
    Yes, I'm CERTAIN, you read the 27 pages of legalese covering every possible side effect, that accompanies every commercial pharmaceutical. You get the recommendation from the physician for the injection, but you say "WAIT, I MUST RESEARCH THIS", then you go home, get on the internet, and research every side effect, reading the referenced medical journals (which you have to pay to access), BEFORE you make another appointment three weeks later to go BACK to the doctor 90 minutes away, pay again, and have the injection. Of course you do.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Yes, I'm CERTAIN, you read the 27 pages of legalese covering every possible side effect, that accompanies every commercial pharmaceutical. You get the recommendation from the physician for the injection, but you say "WAIT, I MUST RESEARCH THIS", then you go home, get on the internet, and research every side effect, reading the referenced medical journals (which you have to pay to access), BEFORE you make another appointment three weeks later to go BACK to the doctor 90 minutes away, pay again, and have the injection. Of course you do.
    I sure as hell do. It's my health! Or it's my loved ones health. What is more foundational to having a good life than maintaining the best health your genetics and environment allow? And spending the time making sure I know everything I can about medical decisions sure beats any time spent learning about the most recent movie weekend ticket sales or stock market quotes. But then, YMMV.
    "The plural of anecdote is not data." -- Attributed to various people in a variety of forms, but always worth remembering...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptor View Post
    I sure as hell do. It's my health! Or it's my loved ones health. What is more foundational to having a good life than maintaining the best health your genetics and environment allow? And spending the time making sure I know everything I can about medical decisions sure beats any time spent learning about the most recent movie weekend ticket sales or stock market quotes. But then, YMMV.
    I agree with this. It's best to be well informed. But no everyone does. Doctors are someone you are supposed to be able to trust with your life, that's their job. So those that do I cannot see belittling them for.

    I'm however one that doesnt go to doctors much. Tries to use natural means to ensure its kept to a minimum. Because in the end, too much money is involved for it not to play a part in decision making.

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    There's an old saying about throwing the baby out with the bath water...

    In the 1800's there was a medication that was considered a miracle drug, it was called laudanum.

    There is no miracle cure, there is no magic pill, all medications as well as all drugs have their pros and cons.

    The best cure is prevention.

    and for those not in the biz... please note that medical providers make the same income regardless of what they prescribe; we don't get kickbacks from insurance or pharma.

    Being a medical provider is a hard job, an under appreciated job, a job that takes a whole lot of heart and patience to do.

    There are many jobs that pay as well or better, with less heartache and far less hassle.

    Most of us, if not all, work far more forty hours a week, but get paid for far less that the hours we work. Believe it or not, medical provides actually do have a life, we don't sleep in our office, and we actually need a break once in a while.

    Hate to rant, but the negativity directed at medical providers on this thread really gets me worked up. If people would only take their "rage" and direct it toward something more positive like caring better for their health.

    I have yet to meet a medical provider that is malicious and self serving. I'm sure they're out there, but for the most part I find that medical providers are good people, though often maligned.
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    Ben, your condescending refusal to step outside your own box might have something to do with it too. Quit telling us we don't know anything. Some of us use CBD under our doctors supervision, some effectively, some not, but at least let us decide what works for us. I'm pretty close to the medical community where I live, my brother is a doc and my son a med tech. There are many who see things quite differently than you do. I love my current doc and his crew but my previous public provider had me on all kinds of shit that was degrading my body and health. I'm so glad my son was looking out for me. I don't take any pharmaceuticals anymore and I enjoy nearly perfect health considering I survived a war, 40 years of construction work, and 30 years of mountain biking. Peace bro...
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  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post

    and for those not in the biz... please note that medical providers make the same income regardless of what they prescribe; we don't get kickbacks from insurance or pharma.
    Straight up bullshit. I have a cousin who works for one of the very big pharma names. Her JOB is to give doctors a reason to prescribe their drugs, and the way she does it is by giving them junkets to five star resorts all over the world where they sit in a sales pitch "education session" for an hour in the morning, and then spend the rest of the day doing very expensive activities, paid for by the company. Oh yes, they can bring a guest who gets to hang at the spa all day if they want.

    It may not show up on their tax returns, but that is some shady compensation right there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Straight up bullshit. I have a cousin who works for one of the very big pharma names. Her JOB is to give doctors a reason to prescribe their drugs, and the way she does it is by giving them junkets to five star resorts all over the world where they sit in a sales pitch "education session" for an hour in the morning, and then spend the rest of the day doing very expensive activities, paid for by the company. Oh yes, they can bring a guest who gets to hang at the spa all day if they want.

    It may not show up on their tax returns, but that is some shady compensation right there.
    Nothing that involves as much money as big pharma is free from what you describe. The fact that you even had to present that story as proof is mind boggling.

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  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post

    and for those not in the biz... please note that medical providers make the same income regardless of what they prescribe; we don't get kickbacks from insurance or pharma.
    Maybe you and your friends aren't getting kickbacks from Big Pharma, that certainly doesn't mean it isn't happening.

    Are drug firms paying your doctor? Illinois doctors accepted $74.1M in industry payments last year - Chicago Tribune

    I also agree with the other poster that advised not to trust too highly in the FDA. The FDA does not do any of their own research. They let the pharmaceutical companies submit their biased testing, pay a hefty fee...heftier if they want to 'fast track' their drugs to market, then the FDA rubber stamps most drug applications only to find out a decade later that the the pharmaceutical company hid evidence of the harm their product did from regulators. Then the lawyers jump in with their class action lawsuits; so everybody can get rich but the suffering patient.

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    I don't know if CBD oil is working, or if it is a placebo. Does it really matter? Early on in my attempts to control arthritis in my fingers, I started wearing a hematite magnetic bracelet. That made the pain not only bearable, but frequently made my thumb and fingers pain free. Once again, working or placebo? I certainly don't care. I'm more interested in results.

    For the record, my doctor didn't poo poo the bracelets. He said, if it works, it works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Nothing that involves as much money as big pharma is free from what you describe. The fact that you even had to present that story as proof is mind boggling.

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    So just because tech companies and oil companies bribe customers and get away with it, we should be OK with doctors being bribed to prescribe sketchy drugs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    So just because tech companies and oil companies bribe customers and get away with it, we should be OK with doctors being bribed to prescribe sketchy drugs?
    I'd be more worried about the growing straw man population but that's just me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaHag View Post
    The FDA does not do any of their own research.
    Wrong. See all the links on this page.
    "The plural of anecdote is not data." -- Attributed to various people in a variety of forms, but always worth remembering...

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    I'd be more worried about the growing straw man population but that's just me.

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    Nice dodge. Are you OK with medical practitioners being bribed to push drugs or not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Nice dodge. Are you OK with medical practitioners being bribed to push drugs or not?
    Where did I say I was?

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    I am a (the?) 72 year old active mountain biker.

    I have a lot of arthritis pain in my hands/fingers, neck and low back. I used to take a lot of ibuprofen, 8 - 10 200 mg most days. Then tried acetaminophen. MD prescribed meloxicam, 15 mg. It seems to help. I practically stopped taking the ibu and acet. Seems they don't provide much relief on top of the meloxicam. I still have too much pain, even though I am positive the meloxicam is helping.

    I also take hydrocodone + acet, 10/325 which sometimes I break in half. The hydro works but I just can't take it all the time. I want to avoid becoming too tolerant of the drug.

    So I ordered CBD cream about one month ago. I rub it on my more painful hand two or three times per day. I think it is working. The relief might be a cumulative effect as I did not notice any improvement for the first week or so.

    Anyway, when this tube nears empty I will order another and see what happens.

    I hope to continue to improve (duh!!!!!!!!!!).

    Terry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptor View Post
    Wrong. See all the links on this page.
    No...You're wrong. Taken directly from the FDA pages:

    "Drug companies seeking to sell a drug in the United States must first test it. The company then sends CDER the evidence from these tests to prove the drug is safe and effective for its intended use. A team of CDER physicians, statisticians, chemists, pharmacologists, and other scientists reviews the company's data and proposed labeling. If this independent and unbiased review establishes that a drug's health benefits outweigh its known risks, the drug is approved for sale. The center doesn't actually test drugs itself, although it does conduct limited research in the areas of drug quality, safety, and effectiveness standards."

    They only review the tests that are paid for by the drug manufacturer...who'd never lie or falsify reports to make a few billion.


    Source: https://www.fda.gov/drugs/developmen...ss/default.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    There's an old saying about throwing the baby out with the bath water...

    In the 1800's there was a medication that was considered a miracle drug, it was called laudanum.

    There is no miracle cure, there is no magic pill, all medications as well as all drugs have their pros and cons.

    The best cure is prevention.

    and for those not in the biz... please note that medical providers make the same income regardless of what they prescribe; we don't get kickbacks from insurance or pharma.

    Being a medical provider is a hard job, an under appreciated job, a job that takes a whole lot of heart and patience to do.

    There are many jobs that pay as well or better, with less heartache and far less hassle.

    Most of us, if not all, work far more forty hours a week, but get paid for far less that the hours we work. Believe it or not, medical provides actually do have a life, we don't sleep in our office, and we actually need a break once in a while.

    Hate to rant, but the negativity directed at medical providers on this thread really gets me worked up. If people would only take their "rage" and direct it toward something more positive like caring better for their health.

    I have yet to meet a medical provider that is malicious and self serving. I'm sure they're out there, but for the most part I find that medical providers are good people, though often maligned.
    I have a lot of respect for doctors, but really nurses more.

    I am on the financial side of 'the biz' as you say. Unfortunately what you're saying is not true.

    It may be true to your experience, which is great. But that's an exception in this country unfortunately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaHag View Post
    ... "The center doesn't actually test drugs itself, although it does conduct limited research in the areas of drug quality, safety, and effectiveness standards."
    FDA doesn't develop drugs, but they do verify "quality, safety, and effectiveness", and that's an important part of the process -- it is research. They don't develop drugs, but the "limited research" comes in at the end of the process. It's kind of like the Reagan thing about nuclear disarmament -- "Trust, but verify". I know people who work or have worked for the FDA and they break plenty of test tubes there -- meaning they do lab work.

    I'd just as soon federal funding supported all aspects of drug R&D. Rather, the Feds provide funds to support basic research that leads to new drug leads, lets industry run with that idea, and the the Feds come back at the end to put a stamp of approval (or not) on new drugs. Do you know why we haven't had any significant new antibiotics developed lately? Because it's not good for corporate profits to provide a cure -- one and done or a short course that fixes a problem means you don't have a lifetime customer. Whereas things like monoclonal antibodies to treat arthritis or eczema are a continual source of revenue. It's not near as profitable to develop a new antibiotic as it is to develop a new drug that treats a chronic condition (but doesn't cure it). There's now a cure for Hepatitis C, formerly a chronic condition, and it costs a zillion dollars, replacing only partially effective treatments that "managed" the disease and also cost a zillion dollars. So with this new pricing model out there I expect we'll have new antibiotics before long and they'll cost a zillion dollars a dose rather than the actual cost. I'm no fan of the pharmaceutical industry, but it's an example of capitalism at it's finest -- how can we be upset (if you're a true-blue American)? Same goes of commercial interests pushing untested, unregulated CBD tinctures -- it's about as 'Murica! as it gets.
    "The plural of anecdote is not data." -- Attributed to various people in a variety of forms, but always worth remembering...

  73. #73
    saddlemeat
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    ^There is a reason that the words "pharma" and "farce" sound similar.
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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsieb View Post
    ^There is a reason that the words "pharma" and "farce" sound similar.
    No, there isn't.

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  75. #75
    saddlemeat
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    No, there isn't.

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    https://www.etymonline.com/word/pharmacy
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  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsieb View Post
    Okay, that's one. Now do the other and explain why it's not coincidence.

    (Hint: it is coincidence)

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  77. #77
    saddlemeat
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    It's not coincidence at all. Spellings could be anywhere, but the actual sounds don't change much over time. I studied linguistics and have maintained my interest over the years. What do you know?
    I ride with the best dogs.




  78. #78
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    https://www.etymonline.com/word/farce#etymonline_v_1125. I was also a Linguistics major in college. It is purely coincidental that the words have any phonetic similarity. The historical roots are unrelated .

  79. #79
    saddlemeat
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    ^Appreciate your opinion, and you could be correct for particular place and time. I was thinking a little further back than modern English.
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  80. #80
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    I use CBD oil for rheumatoid arthritis (the article to prove it works). Since starting CBD oil, I have managed to stop using prescription pain medication with multiple side effects and have a better quality of life.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsieb View Post
    ^Appreciate your opinion, and you could be correct for particular place and time. I was thinking a little further back than modern English.
    Again, look up the origin of the other one. I don't see any relationship.

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  82. #82
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    One of my oldest friends was diagnosed with Mesothelioma and given weeks to live. He was told chemo and surgery options were pointless at that stage, so he started taking high doses of CBD oil he got from Holland. (He lived in the UK). This was 5 years ago, and he only recently passed away. The last few years were full and quite pain free until close to the end. I thought that taking CBD might be a good thing at the beginning of this year, so I started on it. Ironically, I was diagnosed soon after with a rare and so far incurable blood cancer, and put on daily chemo drugs to manage it. I also upped to a heftier max strength full spectrum CBD to mitigate the side effects of the drugs. This seemed to help and I was not too badly affected, altho I did get really high at a couple of inopportune moments! I changed to n isolate product in the day time, and a full spectrum before bed, and that seems to be the best combo for me. I recently went to work in Thailand for a week, and did not take my oil because they can do nasty things to 'drug' barons over there, and even tho CBD is sometimes sold in some places in Bangkok, there is still some confusion as to legality. I really felt a difference not having it! Just a couple of hours ago I woke up in my bed feeling really crappy. Deep bone aches and crawly feelings all thru me, and I realized I forgot to take my oil last night. It works well for me, and I have a 40% discount from Lazarus Naturals for my condition. (Deep gratitude guys!!!) Too expensive otherwise!
    It's all Here. Now.

  83. #83
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    Honestly there are many reasons you can use CBD but it's definitely important to make the difference between THC and CBD as many people are still confused on what CBD actually is...

    Studies indicate that CBD oil can have a positive impact on the management of chronic pain and muscle soreness but there are many other benefits such as helping for anxiety, sleep support, skin care, etc.

    i.e. https://healthy-hemp-cbd.com/cbd-benefits/

    However I felt a bit more tired when I was using it, so I stopped straight after feeling better (I was using CBD tincture for back pain). I think it has great effects when you need it but I don't like how brands are selling it such as the ultimate remedy for everything.

  84. #84
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    It is most definitely not the miracle cure some people make it out to be, and some people feel no benefit from it, but it does have its uses. It takes some time and juggling with doses to find what works for you. My oncologist is all for me continuing, in conjunction with the chemo. Until they find a better solution I will keep doing both.
    It's all Here. Now.

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