• 10-09-2019
    matto6
    What's coming down the pipe for full-suspension fatbikes?
    I owned a bucksaw years ago and miss it. I'm thinking of buying another used. But I'm a little conflicted about buying the same bike twice. I feel like things should have evolved since then. I'd also prefer 27.5x3.8.

    Is there a new Bucksaw coming?

    I'd prefer something like 120mm travel, and as light as possible. No need to go wider than 3.8.

    I don't love the geometry of the Farley EX but maybe I shouldn't rule it out.

    I don't need the 140 travel of the Fattilac, but maybe I should consider it? But I don't see any used for sale. The bucksaw is available.

    Am I missing any other bike options?
  • 10-09-2019
    bme107
    I have a '15 Bucksaw. I'm in here almost daily. There has been no news of anything new.
    I'm all ears if you know something.

    There are some Chinese direct options, Framed bikes, Lamere Cycles, Growler Bikes, Fattilac, Farley EX (frame) currently as new.
  • 10-10-2019
    the mayor
    According to a Salsa product manager...the Bucksaw is dead.
    Not sure what you don't like about the Trek...it's been a great bike for me(run 29+ most of the time...but I may be selling a large EX8 frame soon to make room for a Lenz)
    The Lenz, I believe is available with either 4 or 5 inch rear travel ( maybe Mikesee or Rodney will chime in here to confirm)
    And there's the other brands listed above...but if you don't like the Trek geo...you might not like them either...
  • 10-10-2019
    mikesee
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by the mayor View Post
    The Lenz, I believe is available with either 4 or 5 inch rear travel


    100, 125, or 150.
  • 10-10-2019
    matto6
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    100, 125, or 150.

    Interesting. Do you know how the fork options work? The web site has conflicting information, claiming both "130-180" and "120-150"

    Is there a mechanism to use different fork lengths and keep the BB in the same place? Or does each rear setting require a different fork length?
  • 10-10-2019
    mikesee
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by matto6 View Post
    Interesting. Do you know how the fork options work? The web site has conflicting information, claiming both "130-180" and "120-150"

    Is there a mechanism to use different fork lengths and keep the BB in the same place? Or does each rear setting require a different fork length?


    Each rear travel option slightly affects the BB height.
  • 10-10-2019
    matto6
    OK that makes sense.

    So the fork range being from 120-180 - pick in that range based on whether you want your crank dragging the ground vs sky high? Or is there some height adjustable headset or something?

    It's really strange their site mentions such a huge fork range but doesn't explain any of this.
  • 10-10-2019
    mikesee
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by matto6 View Post
    OK that makes sense.

    So the fork range being from 120-180 - pick in that range based on whether you want your crank dragging the ground vs sky high? Or is there some height adjustable headset or something?

    It's really strange their site mentions such a huge fork range but doesn't explain any of this.


    There are certain simple assumptions made across the industry. If you're running 125mm out back, you're probably running 130 or maybe 140mm up front. 180mm? Not so much.
  • 10-10-2019
    matto6
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    There are certain simple assumptions made across the industry. If you're running 125mm out back, you're probably running 130 or maybe 140mm up front. 180mm? Not so much.

    That's fine, but if the rear travel doesn't change the BB height much then the "industry-approved F-R matching" point is irrelevant. Regardless of the rear choice, the fork travel dictates the BB height.

    But I guess as the rear travel increases, so does the amount of sag when you sit on it. So to achieve the same "sagged BB height", you want a taller fork to compensate. So I maybe it all just works out?

    Given its marketed as such a flexible frame, I'm surprised they don't put a few different example builds and corresponding geometry charts on their page. You need to be a bicycle geometry expert to buy one of these things.

    I'll mail them to ask for a recommendation.
  • 10-11-2019
    MendonCycleSmith
    I'd strongly support the move towards Lenz.

    Owning several, and working with Devin for many years now getting customers of mine on them too, you'll not find a more class act in the ever shifting sands of this industry....
  • 10-11-2019
    matto6
    I think I'm going to order a fatillac frame and build it up myself.

    Does anyone know how the Q-factor on the fatillac compares to the bucksaw Farley ex and fatboy? The fatillac has a smaller max tire size - am I getting narrower q-factor in return?

    I'm thinking of going 125 rear, 140 front. I don't do a lot of jumps or drops - mostly wheels in the chunky rocky ground... But I care a lot about small bump compliance.

    Turns out I already own 3 shocks that will fit the fatillac. Fox DPS, FOX DPX2, and a cc dB inline coil.

    I kind of want to keep the coil on the instinct. I wonder if the DPX2 would go better with the fatillac with 150 rear end.
  • 10-12-2019
    MendonCycleSmith
    Yep, the 177 rear end gets you into the "narrower" crank category, so a bit less Q.

    Personally? If small bump matters, you may want to consider picking up a Rock Shox unit for the back, those are butter. Fox has always felt harsher to me comparatively.
  • 10-12-2019
    Jayem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by matto6 View Post
    I think I'm going to order a fatillac frame and build it up myself.

    Does anyone know how the Q-factor on the fatillac compares to the bucksaw Farley ex and fatboy? The fatillac has a smaller max tire size - am I getting narrower q-factor in return?

    I'm thinking of going 125 rear, 140 front. I don't do a lot of jumps or drops - mostly wheels in the chunky rocky ground... But I care a lot about small bump compliance.

    Turns out I already own 3 shocks that will fit the fatillac. Fox DPS, FOX DPX2, and a cc dB inline coil.

    I kind of want to keep the coil on the instinct. I wonder if the DPX2 would go better with the fatillac with 150 rear end.

    Lensport bikes are all pretty progressive Linkage Design: Lenz Sport ,they would therefore work best with a coil shock. If you care about small bump compliance, it may end up a little challenging with an air shock.

    The other thing to consider is they are extremely low AS designs, not just low like a modern horst link (that has a falling AS curve, but is around 100% at sag), but much much lower. The Foes by comparison is a flatter AS curve closer to 90-100%, meaning it should pedal much better. Kickback isn't an issue unless you are going significantly above 100%, some people get defense when you bring up that a bike is way below the modern standards for AS. The Foes has what looks like a wonky leverage curve, but it's actually optimized for an air shock...You kind of pick your poison here. The Foes looks to be a more hardcore and stiffer machine (all Foes are massively stiff laterally), but a coil shock is usually the best small-bump performance hands down, then again that's going to make the already poor-pedaling Lenz pedal worse.

    I had a Foes back in the day...it was engineered pretty poorly..it was stiff and all, but used a ridiculous long 5" bolt that easily bent and the terrible curnut shock. Fast forward to today and they are using linkages to modify the rate (something they never used to do) and you can modern major-manufacturer shocks on them. Brent is extremely low-production, but still seems to be cranking out bikes and the new bikes are nothing like the old.

    We really do need more viable FS options. I remember a prototype 907 at the shop a couple seasons ago, but unfortunately that didn't go anywhere.
  • 10-13-2019
    Stroganof
    If you can find a Turner King Khan you will be happy. It is pretty much a Sultan with a wide rear end. It runs a D5 with no issues and has an excellent suspension. IMO a front suspension fork is not needed for bumpy snow - and the rear suspension makes riding on rougher terrain much more pleasant.
  • 10-13-2019
    mikesee
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Lensport bikes are all pretty progressive Linkage Design: Lenz Sport ,they would therefore work best with a coil shock. If you care about small bump compliance, it may end up a little challenging with an air shock.


    You should really stick to things you understand.
  • 10-13-2019
    Jayem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    You should really stick to things you understand.

    Like basic suspension theory: Air shocks are progressive, go flat, then end progressive at the end of travel. A properly designed leverage ratio will be flat or regressive in the beginning, progressive in the middle, and regressive at the end of travel, to "cancel out" the negative traits of the air shock. A coil on the other hand works best with a progressive rate, which looking at the beginning and end ratios and nearly straight line of the Lenz bikes, you can clearly see. I'm sorry my post has affected your ability to be happy on your bike.
  • 10-13-2019
    mikesee
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Like basic suspension theory:


    Nope. More like owning and riding the bike in question, instead of groping yourself while spewing ignorance.
  • 10-13-2019
    Jayem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Nope. More like owning and riding the bike in question, instead of groping yourself while spewing ignorance.

    It's not the early 2000s anymore mikey, bike suspension behavior can be easily determined based on kinematics. Welcome to 2019. Maybe it's hurtful for you to know that every bike has advantages and disadvantageous and that what you ride may actually have tradeoffs? I also realize that you can't resist replying and putting down anyone that dares to challenge your perception of perfection concerning the bikes you ride.
  • 10-13-2019
    Bacon Fat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Stroganof View Post
    If you can find a Turner King Khan you will be happy. It is pretty much a Sultan with a wide rear end. It runs a D5 with no issues and has an excellent suspension. IMO a front suspension fork is not needed for bumpy snow - and the rear suspension makes riding on rougher terrain much more pleasant.

    The King khan is an awesome bike.
    I have an XL that I'm looking to sell since I have moved to an area where there is no snow and the trails have been groomed to remove anything that might resemble a bump
  • 10-13-2019
    MendonCycleSmith
    All I'm gonna say is, any modern bike I've ridden has had "tradeoffs" in suspension, all skewed towards reducing pedal bob, or some other nirvanic, circle jerk path to raciness, and just feel dead and lifeless, for it.

    Simple, bombproof, even with an air shock, the Lenz's simply work great. They don't have a zillion pivots to loosen, click, creak, go to shit, or pivot hardware that the manufacturer ceases production on faster than you can say designed obsolescence money grab, or a thousand little pockets around linkages for dirt and mud to pack into etc etc etc.

    I jumped off the OMG it's new and some geek that has worked for all the big players and now works for the brand I want, designed, band wagon. Yawn.

    Remember, computers told us BioPace was a good idea. This is no different.

    Lenz and single pivot, are the round chainrings of the bike world. Some things were just good from the start.
  • 10-13-2019
    mikesee
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    bike suspension behavior can be easily determined based on kinematics.


    No program is going to take into account every individual's preferences nor experiences, especially if the individual doesn't know how to put words (or numbers) to them to input them into the program.

    Said program is a neat idea, but anyone that thinks it's giving them more than a fraction of the overall picture is a rube. That shoe seems to fit you. I'm not here to judge...

    That aside, I've ridden the bike in question at 4, 5, and 6" of travel (matched with 110, 120, 140, 150, and 160mm forks), with several variants of air and coil rear suspension. Were I a shuttle (or lift) monkey with access to crazy techy DH trails, I'd give a slight, slight nod to coil in 6" mode.

    For rides where I earn the vert, coil would be immediately removed from the running. And since I don't ride lifts or shuttle with this (or really any) bike, I divested myself of the coil shocks that I'd used to experiment.
  • 10-13-2019
    Hobine
    I rode a King Khan for 3 years, a great rear end that was hampered by long chain stays and a too steep front end. If Turner ever did another one with a bit more rear travel and revised geometry, Iíd be very tempted.

    I rode a Mutz for two years. A true tank. Excellent bike with the DVO air shock and 140 up front. It fits 26x4.5, 27.5x3.8 and 29x2.8. Only drawback is the long chain stays and weight. Love the versatility and reliability. Besides cleaning and lube, I never had to touch the pivots and bearings.

    Im now on a Fatillac. Itís a truly wonderful machine. The geometry just works for me. Fits all the tire combos the Mutz does and even some 29x3s.
    Of the 3 fat full suspension bike Iíve had itís the best handling, smoothest and lightest. Set up 5Ē rear, 140mm up front. The biggest drawback on the Lenz is your pretty limited on dropper length. Iím running a 125.
    Itís also beautifully made.

    29x2.8

    https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191014/
    d394b219e28972c0e51f9ff48e57e38a.jpg" width="549">
    27.5x2.8
  • 10-13-2019
    rockyfat2019
    Have you considered a foes mutz 150? The mastodon shock is the only fatbike shock I'd ever run, it puts the others to shame. To me the foes mutz 150 is the Mercedes Benz of full suspension fatbikes.

    Sent from my VOG-L04 using Tapatalk
  • 10-13-2019
    rockyfat2019
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hobine View Post
    I rode a King Khan for 3 years, a great rear end that was hampered by long chain stays and a too steep front end. If Turner ever did another one with a bit more rear travel and revised geometry, Iíd be very tempted.

    I rode a Mutz for two years. A true tank. Excellent bike with the DVO air shock and 140 up front. It fits 26x4.5, 27.5x3.8 and 29x2.8. Only drawback is the long chain stays and weight. Love the versatility and reliability. Besides cleaning and lube, I never had to touch the pivots and bearings.

    Im now on a Fatillac. Itís a truly wonderful machine. The geometry just works for me. Fits all the tire combos the Mutz does and even some 29x3s.
    Of the 3 fat full suspension bike Iíve had itís the best handling, smoothest and lightest. Set up 5Ē rear, 140mm up front. The biggest drawback on the Lenz is your pretty limited on dropper length. Iím running a 125.
    Itís also beautifully made.

    29x2.8

    https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191014/
    d394b219e28972c0e51f9ff48e57e38a.jpg" width="549">
    27.5x2.8

    Whats the Fatillac weigh in at? What gen foes mutz were you riding? What did the foes mutz weigh in at? Lol

    Sent from my VOG-L04 using Tapatalk
  • 10-13-2019
    matto6
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rockyfat2019 View Post
    Have you considered a foes mutz 150?

    I was hoping for 27.5x3.8

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hobine View Post
    I rode a King Khan for 3 years, a great rear end that was hampered by long chain stays and a too steep front end.

    Yes the King Kahn always baffled me. The geometry was long out of date before the bike was even introduced. Despite that, people were lined up to buy it - yet he made it a short production run and he didn't sell as many as he could have.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Said program is a neat idea, but anyone that thinks it's giving them more than a fraction of the overall picture is a rube. That shoe seems to fit you. I'm not here to judge...

    No one has argued that riding a bike isn't the best way to evaluate it. But when a bike isn't available for test riding, what else are you supposed to do besides look at facts and extrapolate based on your own experiences?

    Based on my experience owning a bucksaw, I decided I want more than 100mm travel this time. Does that make me ignorant because I haven't ridden all the 100mm bikes out there?

    Given that I really like rollover, I think I want 27.5x3.8 rather than 26. Does that make me ignorant?

    Given that I own 3 29'ers now and can look up their anti-squat curves on linkage design... does using that information to select my next bike make me ignorant?

    At some point you have to extrapolate based on your experiences.

    I know you have a sh!t ton of experience riding these bikes and I really appreciate your contributions to the forum when share that experience to help people find the right bike, wheels, and tires. But what's baffling me is the attacks at Jayam for posting facts and specs, and the implication that discussing them makes us ignorant. You seem angry.

    You also appear to be arguing "Specs tell us literally nothing and you can't use them to rule out a bike, therefore you must ride literally every bike in existence before making a decision" which is clearly a silly path to go down.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    For rides where I earn the vert, coil would be immediately removed from the running. And since I don't ride lifts or shuttle with this (or really any) bike, I divested myself of the coil shocks that I'd used to experiment.

    Sounds like you strongly recommend an air shock on the Fatillac. Are you saying that specifically for the Fatillac? Or that you hate coil springs on any bike? Because I quite like the coil on my Rocky Mountain Instinct. The small-bump compliance is wonderful.
  • 10-13-2019
    rockyfat2019
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by matto6 View Post
    I was hoping for 27.5x3.8


    Yes the King Kahn always baffled me. The geometry was long out of date before the bike was even introduced. Despite that, people were lined up to buy it - yet he made it a short production run and he didn't sell as many as he could have.



    No one has argued that riding a bike isn't the best way to evaluate it. But when a bike isn't available for test riding, what else are you supposed to do besides look at facts and extrapolate based on your own experiences?

    Based on my experience owning a bucksaw, I decided I want more than 100mm travel this time. Does that make me ignorant because I haven't ridden all the 100mm bikes out there?

    Given that I really like rollover, I think I want 27.5x3.8 rather than 26. Does that make me ignorant?

    Given that I own 3 29'ers now and can look up their anti-squat curves on linkage design... does using that information to select my next bike make me ignorant?

    At some point you have to extrapolate based on your experiences.

    I know you have a sh!t ton of experience riding these bikes and I really appreciate your contributions to the forum when share that experience to help people find the right bike, wheels, and tires. But what's baffling me is the attacks at Jayam for posting facts and specs, and the implication that discussing them makes us ignorant. You seem angry.

    You also appear to be arguing "Specs tell us literally nothing and you can't use them to rule out a bike, therefore you must ride literally every bike in existence before making a decision" which is clearly a silly path to go down.



    Sounds like you strongly recommend an air shock on the Fatillac. Are you saying that specifically for the Fatillac? Or that you hate coil springs on any bike? Because I quite like the coil on my Rocky Mountain Instinct. The small-bump compliance is wonderful.

    As far as I've read you can run anything from a 26x5 to a 29x3 on the foes mutz 150. 27x3.8 is definitely doable.

    Sent from my VOG-L04 using Tapatalk
  • 10-13-2019
    Jayem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    No program is going to take into account every individual's preferences nor experiences, especially if the individual doesn't know how to put words (or numbers) to them to input them into the program.

    And that's great Mike, but I wasn't trying to offend your preferences or experience. I was making generalized points about the behavior based on the kinematics. Your last two paragraphs above are decently insightful and would have been the "adult" way to handle this from the start, rather than going straight to the personal attacks.
  • 10-13-2019
    mikesee
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    And that's great Mike, but I wasn't trying to offend your preferences or experience. I was making generalized points about the behavior based on the kinematics. Your last two paragraphs above are decently insightful and would have been the "adult" way to handle this from the start, rather than going straight to the personal attacks.


    So, if my maths add up, you come in here, sling some generalized ignorance, get called on it, and now you've got your feelings hurt?

    Pretty rich.

    Never have I said that the computer programs aren't valuable, I've simply said that they're a long way from the whole picture.
  • 10-13-2019
    mikesee
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by matto6 View Post
    No one has argued that riding a bike isn't the best way to evaluate it. But when a bike isn't available for test riding, what else are you supposed to do besides look at facts and extrapolate based on your own experiences?


    That's exactly what I'm suggesting you do.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by matto6 View Post
    Based on my experience owning a bucksaw, I decided I want more than 100mm travel this time. Does that make me ignorant because I haven't ridden all the 100mm bikes out there?


    Are you asking me? If so, why? Where have I suggested anything of the sort?


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by matto6 View Post
    Given that I really like rollover, I think I want 27.5x3.8 rather than 26. Does that make me ignorant?


    You seem to have arrived at a very different conclusion than anything I've suggested. Your prerogative.

    Simply put: "kinematics" can tell you a little, but it's a long ways from the whole ball of wax.

    IMO, considering kinematics more than a small data point may not go all the way to 'ignorant' (your term), but it's certainly uninformed.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by matto6 View Post
    Given that I own 3 29'ers now and can look up their anti-squat curves on linkage design... does using that information to select my next bike make me ignorant?


    No, it makes you educated, but possibly with a chip on your shoulder and certainly an affinity for the term 'ignorant'.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by matto6 View Post
    At some point you have to extrapolate based on your experiences.


    Aha! Exactly!


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by matto6 View Post
    I know you have a sh!t ton of experience riding these bikes and I really appreciate your contributions to the forum when share that experience to help people find the right bike, wheels, and tires. But what's baffling me is the attacks at Jayam for posting facts and specs, and the implication that discussing them makes us ignorant. You seem angry.


    He slings a lot of BS and calls it fact, then doubles down when called on it. If he has nothing better to do with his life, that's his prerogative.

    Note that nowhere in this post have I opined on what *you* should or shouldn't buy. I've tried to remain objective and simply share my experiences with one of the bikes you're considering. I actually have quite a bit of experience with the other bikes mentioned in this post (my experiences very closely mirror what Hobine wrote), but I haven't brought those up because someone (we all know whom...) would then accuse me of bias, or shilling, or some other ridiculous crap.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by matto6 View Post
    You also appear to be arguing "Specs tell us literally nothing and you can't use them to rule out a bike, therefore you must ride literally every bike in existence before making a decision" which is clearly a silly path to go down.


    Show me where I've said anything of the sort. If you want to infer that from something I've written you're welcome to, but it simply isn't true.



    Quote:

    Originally Posted by matto6 View Post
    Sounds like you strongly recommend an air shock on the Fatillac. Are you saying that specifically for the Fatillac? Or that you hate coil springs on any bike? Because I quite like the coil on my Rocky Mountain Instinct. The small-bump compliance is wonderful.


    Reading comprehension is your friend.
  • 10-14-2019
    Hobine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rockyfat2019 View Post
    Whats the Fatillac weigh in at? What gen foes mutz were you riding? What did the foes mutz weigh in at? Lol

    Sent from my VOG-L04 using Tapatalk

    Fatillac weighs 30.5# in 29+ attire and 32.7# wearing 27.5x3.8.
    My Mutz is a 2017 made before the 150 was available. It was around 34#. Not that big of a difference, but the Lenz rides much lighter and is more nimble.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • 10-14-2019
    Jayem
    Oh boy. Talk about ďa chip on your shoulderĒ...
  • 10-14-2019
    Shark
    I have both a bucksaw and a fatillac.
    The bucksaw is a bit lighter. The lenz does everything else better, regardless of an extra pound or two.
  • 10-14-2019
    matto6
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rockyfat2019 View Post
    As far as I've read you can run anything from a 26x5 to a 29x3 on the foes mutz 150. 27x3.8 is definitely doable.

    Oh interesting, thanks. I'll look into it.

    Their web page does not mention 27.5x3.8
    https://www.foesracing.com/bikes/frames/foes-mutz/
  • 10-14-2019
    matto6
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by matto6
    No one has argued that riding a bike isn't the best way to evaluate it. But when a bike isn't available for test riding, what else are you supposed to do besides look at facts and extrapolate based on your own experiences?

    That's exactly what I'm suggesting you do.

    That's exactly what Jayam did and you told him

    "You should really stick to things you understand." [...] "like owning and riding the bike in question, instead of groping yourself while spewing ignorance."

    Not exactly a ringing endorsement of "look at facts and extrapolate", and more of a "STFU unless you've ridden the bike."

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by matto6
    You also appear to be arguing "Specs tell us literally nothing and you can't use them to rule out a bike, therefore you must ride literally every bike in existence before making a decision" which is clearly a silly path to go down.

    Show me where I've said anything of the sort. If you want to infer that from something I've written you're welcome to, but it simply isn't true.

    Might I again refer you to your reply to Jayam above.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mikesee
    No, it makes you educated, but possibly with a chip on your shoulder and certainly an affinity for the term 'ignorant'.

    Apologies for the chip. I am intrigued by your willingness to spend time here sharing knowledge and helping people, while at the same time intermixing it with condescension, insults, and general bad vibes. I tend (personal flaw) to respond in kind.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mikesee
    Reading comprehension is your friend.

    Case and point. Sigh.

    I could see interpreting what you wrote either way so I decided to ask for a clarification. Sorry for the bother. I'll stop asking you things so you have more time to rage on Jayam.
  • 10-14-2019
    Hobine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by matto6 View Post
    Oh interesting, thanks. I'll look into it.

    Their web page does not mention 27.5x3.8
    https://www.foesracing.com/bikes/frames/foes-mutz/

    Mutz fits 27.5x3.8 with room to spare. Only exception I know of is the Vanhelgas.
  • 10-14-2019
    mikesee
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by matto6 View Post
    That's exactly what


    Fascinating perspective.

    I'll stop helping now.
  • 10-14-2019
    matto6
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hobine View Post
    Mutz fits 27.5x3.8 with room to spare. Only exception I know of is the Vanhelgas.

    Thanks Hobine. Great to know.

    Sounds like you're enjoying the Fatillac more though. Did you size the Fatillac similar to your other bikes? Talking with them, they are strongly against the long-slack trend and size the bike accordingly. They recommended a bike with a significantly shorter cockpit for me than any of the recent bikes I've been riding.
  • 10-14-2019
    matto6
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Shark View Post
    I have both a bucksaw and a fatillac.
    The bucksaw is a bit lighter. The lenz does everything else better, regardless of an extra pound or two.

    Thanks Shark.

    Hobine, Shark, and all those with a Fatillac - how do you find the pedal efficiency compared to the others? (Bucksaw, foes, etc?) No problemo? From the pics I've seen, all are running an air shock.

    When I called, the person I talked to was extremely helpful overall but seemed to have never heard of the term "anti-squat", so I didn't learn much there. Between that and Jayam & Mikesee's little feud above I'm left honestly having no idea how this thing pedals.

    I'm sensitive to small-bump compliance, hence I like my coil shock on my Instinct. But it does lack the snappy feel of my previous bikes. If it got much softer than that I think it would be too much for me.
  • 10-16-2019
    matt4x4
    What is the quality of the frames those direct chinese bikes sell?
    The components can always be changed out if they slap on no-name components.

    Some of the chinese companies can mimic the geometery and quality pretty precisely, other companies who knows. Thats why it can be a gamble sometimes purchasing clones.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bme107 View Post
    I have a '15 Bucksaw. I'm in here almost daily. There has been no news of anything new.
    I'm all ears if you know something.

    There are some Chinese direct options, Framed bikes, Lamere Cycles, Growler Bikes, Fattilac, Farley EX (frame) currently as new.

  • 10-16-2019
    Shark
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by matto6 View Post
    Thanks Shark.

    Hobine, Shark, and all those with a Fatillac - how do you find the pedal efficiency compared to the others? (Bucksaw, foes, etc?) No problemo? From the pics I've seen, all are running an air shock.

    When I called, the person I talked to was extremely helpful overall but seemed to have never heard of the term "anti-squat", so I didn't learn much there. Between that and Jayam & Mikesee's little feud above I'm left honestly having no idea how this thing pedals.

    I'm sensitive to small-bump compliance, hence I like my coil shock on my Instinct. But it does lack the snappy feel of my previous bikes. If it got much softer than that I think it would be too much for me.

    I'm not much help when you start talking pedaling efficiency, anti squat what now?, etc etc, i just know what feels good going up, going down, through chunky stuff etc.
    The Lenz out performs all my other bikes.

    I basically keep the bucksaw around so i can leave the studded tires on it for winter. The other 3 seasons it's Fatillac only. I rode it 26x3.8 with Nates for a while, but in the summer really like B+.

    Running a cane creek db air cs and the climbing mode is nice for extended climbs. soaks up everything i'd like back down.
  • 10-17-2019
    rcracer2
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by matt4x4 View Post
    What is the quality of the frames those direct chinese bikes sell?
    The components can always be changed out if they slap on no-name components.

    Some of the chinese companies can mimic the geometery and quality pretty precisely, other companies who knows. Thats why it can be a gamble sometimes purchasing clones.

    The XMCarbonspeed one from Peter Xu is supposed to have no issues (unlike actual Bucksaw)
    I have an original gold 'saw which I love; but I know it's not going to last forever. I just recently had to replace the chainstay due to a crack so that had me looking for what's after the 'Saw and I think it would be an XMCarbonspeed frame. The only problem is I think he has gone offline recently?

    Next option would be a Lamere Dopamine or one of the others mentioned here; or a plus sized trail FS.
  • 10-23-2019
    El_Topo
    The Fatillac is very likely a great frame but for a European it is too expensive with all additional costs involved to get it over the pond. I really like the Farley EX, despite its geometry that starts to show its age but the Carbon frame has become almost unobtainable where I live, so I have almost given up on finding a reasonable priced one.

    I would love to see a new Chinese Carbon frame with a modern trail bike geometry, nothing fancy or too agressive. Meaning a well designed 130-140mm of rear and 140-150mm of front suspension, short-ish chain stay with room for 27.5x4.5 and 29x3 tires, maybe even a geometry adjustment (flip chip in the linkage and rear dropout) to also run 27.5x3.8.

    All this of course accompanied by a low Q-factor - frames with a 100mm BB/177mm rear or 120mmBB/197mm rear shouldn't be part of the discussion anymore in 2019.
    Custom frame builders like Waltworks show that you can have 27.5x4.5" tires with a 83mm BB and 177mm rear, this is what I would expect from a modern fat trail bike.

    Hopefully someone will pick up on, what seems to me, an obvious opportunity to produce a new frame that should be in good demand (within the fat bike niche of course).
  • 10-23-2019
    mikesee
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by El_Topo View Post
    The Fatillac is very likely a great frame but for a European it is too expensive


    So, basically, you want a custom-level frame for a bargain basement price.

    We all get to want what we want, but your expectations aren't in line with any kind of reality.
  • 10-23-2019
    Co-opski
    Dang MC needs some alone time in the woods.