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  1. #1
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    Warning: New Pugsley owners

    Hey all,

    Just sending a word out to all you recent "complete" Pugsley owners.

    Double check the rear Deore hub locknut/cones on your new Pug. I've now overhauled a bunch (7) that came with loose locknut/ cones from the factory. Apparently these hubs are making through Q/C unchecked.

    My buddy (a hammerdog) is now looking at replacing his rear hub cause we didn't catch it fast enough (500 miles) and even though these are cheap hubs, it's still a bummer to have to replace after so few miles.

  2. #2
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    I have the same issues with my rear deore hub from my complete cross check bought last summer. It requires regular checks and fiddling to minimize looseness and play, but still isn't quite right. I figure I'll keep making it work enough until it really kicks the bucket.

  3. #3
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    Yeah I found mine needed a repeat adjustments also. Although what "drove" me to new wheels, was repeated freehub pawl failure.

  4. #4
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    I use mine in the front, switched out the axle to a solid one and adjusted the bearings correctly, they have stayed adjusted. I wasn't surprised, the Deore and XT hubs share the same cones and lockwashers/bolts, I've used XT hubs for years with no issues.

  5. #5
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    Same here repacked mine this spring.

  6. #6
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    I had the same thing happen to me.

  7. #7
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    Good info, thanks, I'll check mine out.

  8. #8
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    So I adjusted my cones and locknuts approximately 4 weeks and 100 miles ago (yeah I have alot of family obligations) and checked it lastnight while doing my "megadrive" conversion and the locknuts and cones were loose again.

    Since I was anxious to try out my conversion, I just retightened and adjusted everything and went out for a trial run, but I plan on using some lock-tite to sinch down the drive side. I believe some poor quality materials, or the machining thereof, and the dust seals are to blame for the components coming loose.

    My "megadrive" conversion (in case anyone is interested) utilizes the large cog (34t) from a megadrive cassette, which I dissassembled, and installed the 34 on the oem pugsley cassette, which I also disassembled. The largest cog on the pugsley is a 32t, so there is quite a difference in the low end torque. I'm a cheapskate, and enjoy tinkering so it was a fun/free project that will benefit my lack of climbing prowess.

  9. #9
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    M.u.l.e.

    People always laughed at me for carrying this giant camelbak on little twiddle rides. My quick response was "Deore Hubs". Gotta have a set of hub wrenches, and big tube a lube with some Mike and Ikes to nosh on while I do a rebuild under a tree or rock somewhere. My Pugs now sports Chris King hardware.

  10. #10
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    I don't think this should be a warning to Pugsley buyers, I think it should be a warning to people who purchase Shimano hubs.

    Their Hollowtech-II cranks are to swear by, and without those silly Servo-Wave levers, their brakes are great too. But those hubs they make are just ridiculous, I'd rather replace bearings every season than have to re-adjust my hub every couple months. It can be a lot of work to take a rear wheel off depending on the style of drop-outs, and in the Pugsley's case, more difficult than usual because they're horizontal.

  11. #11
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    I figured they would be fine after they broke in, and were then re-adjusted properly.

  12. #12
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    This is a problem I was told to look at on ANY Deore XT hubs. I tightened my rear once a few months after purchase and it is fine. I probably will have to do the same on my LHT? I dunno

  13. #13
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    CAUTION DISSENTING OPINION

    I absolutely agree that new hubs should be properly adjusted before use. That goes doubly for complete bikes with cup/cone hubs. Hubs on complete bikes are NEVER adjusted properly out of the box, especially cup/cone hubs. This is a poor assembly problem not a hub quality problem. Additionally cup/cone hubs don't "Just Loosen Up" if they were adjusted properly in the first place. Proper adjustment may not be possible anymore if they were ridden loose for too long and things are damaged.
    Slowly slipping to retrogrouchyness

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-reg View Post
    Additionally cup/cone hubs don't "Just Loosen Up" if they were adjusted properly in the first place.
    Mine actually did come loose again from the initial time I did the adjustment. I was totally surprised cause I know know how to adjust hubs. And my Pug only has 100 miles on it. Not sure why they loosen, the tolerances seem to be fair. Perhaps shimano needs to knarl the contact surfaces of each component in question.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-reg View Post
    CAUTION DISSENTING OPINION

    I absolutely agree that new hubs should be properly adjusted before use. That goes doubly for complete bikes with cup/cone hubs. Hubs on complete bikes are NEVER adjusted properly out of the box, especially cup/cone hubs. This is a poor assembly problem not a hub quality problem. Additionally cup/cone hubs don't "Just Loosen Up" if they were adjusted properly in the first place. Proper adjustment may not be possible anymore if they were ridden loose for too long and things are damaged.
    OK I agree that hubs generally do not come properly adjusted. I also agree that a hub ridden loose can cause damage.

    I do disagree that a "cheaper" hub if adjusted properly from the start, will stay properly adjusted.
    I was trying to find an online image of a bearing cone with a nice wear line in it, but could not find one. In lesser quality hubs, that wear line will be very feel-able. As this wear line develops, play develops.
    Higher quality hubs start with harder and smoother cones.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenlason View Post
    Higher quality hubs start with harder and smoother cones.
    Or they skip that and go directly to cartridge bearings

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenlason View Post
    I do disagree that a "cheaper" hub if adjusted properly from the start, will stay properly adjusted.
    I was trying to find an online image of a bearing cone with a nice wear line in it....
    The bearings/cones in the Deore 525 are the same part number as the Deore XT 756, both of those bearings cones look the same as Shimano 105 road hubs. I adjust all three hubs types the same, they never come loose. I have three 756s, two 525 and one 105....

    The freehub side's cone/locknut must be torqued tightly (~30 ft*lbs) first, then the non-driveside cone/locknut must be adjusted while the driveside is held with a 17mm wrench. If you're not careful, the dustcaps can be incorrectly positioned, then it appears the hub is correctly adjusted, a short ride will cause the dustcaps to move outward and the mal-adjusted hub will wobble.

    Expensive hubs are nice but not required.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by pursuiter View Post
    The freehub side's cone/locknut must be torqued tightly (~30 ft*lbs) first......
    Expensive hubs are nice but not required.

    This is KEY. It involves taking the cassette off usually and loosening the non drive side enough to get wrenches on the drive side cone. Which takes time and is an easy corner to cut.
    Slowly slipping to retrogrouchyness

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by pursuiter View Post
    The bearings/cones in the Deore 525 are the same part number as the Deore XT 756, both of those bearings cones look the same as Shimano 105 road hubs. I adjust all three hubs types the same, they never come loose. I have three 756s, two 525 and one 105....

    The freehub side's cone/locknut must be torqued tightly (~30 ft*lbs) first, then the non-driveside cone/locknut must be adjusted while the driveside is held with a 17mm wrench. If you're not careful, the dustcaps can be incorrectly positioned, then it appears the hub is correctly adjusted, a short ride will cause the dustcaps to move outward and the mal-adjusted hub will wobble.

    Expensive hubs are nice but not required.
    I was not commenting specifically on these Deore hubs. I did not get "far" enough with them to judge the cones. I kept having trouble with the freehub pawls failing.. so I gave up, and went to other hubs.

    I agree many people.. including shops.. don't do a good job of adjusting hubs properly. I was not stating that expensive hubs were required. I was just stating that a hub of lesser quality, might end up needing to be adjusted a few times.. as it breaks in. Once broken in, they are usually fine.

    At a shop I worked at a couple of decades ago.. we used to take some of the lesser hubs [that we were having troubles with then.. and while building the bike, we would break in the bearings. We would lightly preload them, and run them up for a minute, and then re adjust them properly. It made a big difference.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenlason View Post
    At a shop I worked at a couple of decades ago.. we used to take some of the lesser hubs [that we were having troubles with then.. and while building the bike, we would break in the bearings. We would lightly preload them, and run them up for a minute, and then re adjust them properly. It made a big difference.
    Man this just reminded me of the first shop I worked at. A new bike build consisted of a "complete" tear down, full overhaul including putting the chain in the dunk tank to get the factory goo off. Talk about a pain, but those bikes (25-30 years later) are still rolling around town.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mijstrat72 View Post
    Man this just reminded me of the first shop I worked at. A new bike build consisted of a "complete" tear down, full overhaul including putting the chain in the dunk tank to get the factory goo off. Talk about a pain, but those bikes (25-30 years later) are still rolling around town.

    This was a small shop.. my boss did the builds.. I did tune ups. He also used to tear every bike down. Each frame was checked for straightness as part of his build. He was an incredible mechanic. I had been wrenching for 8-10 years prior to him.. but it was like starting over.

  22. #22
    Frt Range, CO
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenlason View Post
    ...I kept having trouble with the freehub pawls failing.. so I gave up, and went to other hubs.....
    If the bearings are loose, the freehub get abused.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by pursuiter View Post
    If the bearings are loose, the freehub get abused.
    The last freehub.. it came in.. was installed...and failed in the same day! It was adjusted properly and failed 4 miles into it's first ride. The bearings were still adjusted properly after it failed!!!

    I ride VERY steep hills.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenlason View Post

    This was a small shop.. my boss did the builds.. I did tune ups. He also used to tear every bike down. Each frame was checked for straightness as part of his build. He was an incredible mechanic. I had been wrenching for 8-10 years prior to him.. but it was like starting over.
    Oh yeah...The F.A.G. tool! Or did you do the string method? I forgot all about that step. I always enjoyed aligning the fork drop-outs! NOT!! The good ole' days. The shop I'm at now you just slap together as fast as possible. Actually I don't, I take pride in my work, but the young guys I work with have no moral compass when it comes to producing a top quality product.

  25. #25
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    On every Pugsley wheel build, if using a more standard hub with a threaded axle and cones/locknuts, I use Loctite 242 on the cone and locknut threads before even lacing the wheel. I then build the wheel and check for proper bearing pre-load once the Loctite is set. A little adjustment is fine after the Loctite is set.

    I did this immediately when I got my Pugsley complete because of all of the hubs I have seen come loose over the years. The blue Loctite is a light enough grade to allow easy disassembly in the future and hundreds of miles of usage without ever touching the cones/locknuts.

    Just rebuilt my rear wheel with an XT M775 hub and Competition spokes. Way better engagement. Was going to install my third set of bearings into my Surly hub, but the ABEC-5 bearings I installed after roaching the stock cartridges came back to life after just a couple miles of riding. Maybe they will last better. Have some Phil Wood Extreme's laying around to slap in. Hopefully will find something that lasts. Those front hub bearings take a major beating. Wish Surly would use a wider/larger diameter bearing hub.

  26. #26
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    disregard
    Last edited by bikepunk; 08-06-2011 at 10:36 PM.
    I turn wrenches at a not for profit bike shop in Denver called The Bike Depot

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mijstrat72 View Post
    Oh yeah...The F.A.G. tool! Or did you do the string method? I forgot all about that step. I always enjoyed aligning the fork drop-outs! NOT!! The good ole' days. The shop I'm at now you just slap together as fast as possible. Actually I don't, I take pride in my work, but the young guys I work with have no moral compass when it comes to producing a top quality product.
    Actually he did not use either. Hmm he used a Bringhali [sp] surface plate for the forks. The other tooll... I thought it was a Park tool.. but it it no longer listed. He did have some parts made for it, to make it more accurate. It was bolted into the concrete floor, and the frame was fastened to it at the bb. All measurements were taken from the bb.. and adjusted to line up it.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mijstrat72 View Post
    Man this just reminded me of the first shop I worked at. A new bike build consisted of a "complete" tear down, full overhaul including putting the chain in the dunk tank to get the factory goo off. Talk about a pain, but those bikes (25-30 years later) are still rolling around town.
    Off topic a bit...I thought that factory "goo" was very good lubricant and should be left on as long as possible? I think Sheldon Brown taught me that...

  29. #29
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    It's funny that I read this today. I had issues with the front hub when I got my bike last December. I just rode 100 miles yesterday and figured that I'd take it in for a once over. Low and behold, the guy at the shop tells me the rear hub is REALLY loose. I should have been checking it. Surley has done us a dis service with this. It's a great bike and I love my pugsley, but these things should not be coming loose.
    My shop guy said that the hub was already pitting and I should buy a new one. He's going to do a rebuild for now, but I see a new hub in my future. What's the consensus on what is a better hub?

    Thx
    Mark

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slarti View Post
    It's funny that I read this today. I had issues with the front hub when I got my bike last December. I just rode 100 miles yesterday and figured that I'd take it in for a once over. Low and behold, the guy at the shop tells me the rear hub is REALLY loose. I should have been checking it. Surley has done us a dis service with this. It's a great bike and I love my pugsley, but these things should not be coming loose.
    My shop guy said that the hub was already pitting and I should buy a new one. He's going to do a rebuild for now, but I see a new hub in my future. What's the consensus on what is a better hub?

    Thx
    Mark
    Your looking for consensus

    I think the only thing we all agree on is that we like Fat Bikes. I ended up going with the DT 340 on the rear, and the Surly cartridge bearing hub up front.

  31. #31
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    hubs

    Just about anything that you buy will be better than the Shimano's it came with. I prefer Chris King.

  32. #32
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    In defense of Surly. This was a price build... commonly known to be a price build. A specter often does not know of a problem part.. until after the product is out. I am not even sure there is consensus that these hubs are a problem? I have had trouble with the freehub pawls, but I don't know that that many others have had problems. I did not like the feel of my front skewer either. Yet my on my wife's bike, the skewer was pretty good, and she has not had any problems with her hubs [or anything else]
    Although I did end up upgrading her wheels.. also.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike83 View Post
    Off topic a bit...I thought that factory "goo" was very good lubricant and should be left on as long as possible? I think Sheldon Brown taught me that...
    I generally found the original goo to be a dirt magnet.

    At a previous shop we would remove it.. most often where I am not.. they don't...

  34. #34
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    Basically all this boils down to is if you use a part that hasn't been properly adjusted and lubricated it will fail.

    Cup and cone hubs are reliable if properly adjusted, kept greased or oiled, and if you keep the dirt out. Stick new balls* in each year as preventative maintenance and they will just about last forever.

    *A tin of a few hundred balls costs peanuts from a bearing supplier.
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  35. #35
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    Lots of folks like to upgrade their bikes, that's great. If you need to actually use the Deore 525 hub, PM me and I'll explain how to correctly adjust it so it stay adjusted. I've been using mine since last December with no issues. No need to rain on this fact-fest....

  36. #36
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    my pugs wheels were built with phil wood tandem style hubs.(i'm a big guy), the only issue I had was the grease in the hub, the green grease is phil wood of course and it's thick and at the cold alaska temps some times the pawls wouldn't engauge. my bike builder removed a bit of the grease and things have been gr8.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Basically all this boils down to is if you use a part that hasn't been properly adjusted and lubricated it will fail.
    Pretty much. The thread title is so sensationalist

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