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  1. #1
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    Tubeless Tuesday.

    All this chatter of tubeless and countless threads, i myself have had 3-4 attempts but never using the "build up the valley" method.

    So the missus asked what i was doing today, i said "a bit of stuff outside" she said she would not be home all day and she would pick the kids up from school

    Perfect opportunity for for Toobless Toosday.... though i didnt count on it taking me 5 hours.

    Ok i used Laminate flooring underlay for the foam, its plastic backed and not the lightest but its a medium density foam. I measured the "valley" and cut it into strips progressively getting wider.





    1 wrap around with gorilla tape, stretched and made sure it reached the bead.




    Marge lites.
    Rimstrip = 45g
    Foam = 50g
    Tape = 45g
    So the rim strip stayed there meaning a 90g gain for losing a 220g Q-Tube superlite = -130g
    I have not added sealant to the Marge Lites yet as i will not be riding them until i have got the others sorted.



    This is where i was gobsmacked, i fitted the tyre, gave them a quick once round with some soapy water, gave it 1-2 pumps with the track pump and the tyre move towards the bead and started bubbling



    10-12 pumps later the first bead popped, then the second at about 15psi, i have pumped them to 20psi and they still seem like they are holding air with no sealant.



    Awesome, cant believe how easy that was, most time was taken cutting foam. Thanks to all who have posted their tubeless conversions.... if you see some of you mod here, i probably copied you. Cheers
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  2. #2
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    Ok set number 2.

    These have been a *****, i have tried these 3-4 times with no luck.Hopefully things have changed.
    These are 47mm Trialtech SL's. They already had a rimstrip weighing 55g as there was a full wrap of gorilla tape on them from the last unsucessful tubeless attempt.

    I removed the old rimstrip and added the foam and new gorilla tape, total gained was 45g more from what they were, the original rimstrip could have been lighter but nevertheless 220g q-tube superlite minus 45g = 175g saved (rimstrip is additional 55g) per wheel. Both wheels have had 70ml of stans added.

    First thing was to block the holes that would let the air escape into the rim and out the butted joint. Filled with epoxy metal putty and a smear of loctite on the joint.




    Same as before, filled the valley with foam. Then taped up.







    These went up with the same 1-2 pumps but did not pop onto the bead, thats why i will try and sort these out first as the other wheels are 100%. I cant burp the bead or let any air out until they are nearly flat but tonights ride will make things clearer. They are currently holding air (after stans blocked about 10 holes from thorns) at 10psi and i will drop that gradually down to about 7psi for testing purposes.

    Hopefully all works well and they stay on the rims, cheers for tips

    4 wheels now tubeless !!!!

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  3. #3
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    Nice work. Looking forward to the ride impressions.
    I see hills.

    I want to climb them.

  4. #4
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    Cheers Stevo, If i survive the run tonight i'll post how the Trialtechs go later, the Marge Lites are as good as perfect, the bead is solid on them.
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  5. #5
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    Just did a 35km loop, wheels performed beautifully.

    One thing that has surprised me, i usually ran these wheels/tyres at 9psi on dirt

    I started the ride with 10psi in the tyres (digital gauge), i took the gauge with me to drop air out as i went.... wrong. I had to add a little bit making both tyres to 11psi to feel the same as they did previously with tubes fitted.
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  6. #6
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    I have saved 260g on the Marge/Buds wheelset.

    And 350g on the TrialTech/HuDu's wheelset. (sealant added after weigh in)

    With the new 1080 cassette i weighed my bike in the high 24lbs today, the new "lite" HuDu's i just got are saving me 130g a tyre too, so when its gets the next weigh in i might have a surprise
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  7. #7
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    Nicely done! Enjoy alot less flats

  8. #8
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    Cheers shark, Ive been tubeless for 5 years on other bikes, if i get anywhere near the result ive had with them i'll be super happy.
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  9. #9
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    Great write up and nice images. I'm tubeless on my non drilled rolling Darryl's + nates. Just used gorilla tape and Stan's but no center filler. What is the reason needed for the center foam? She's on marge lites and will soon be running Dillingers ...I'd like to make this tubeless for her.
    Thanks again.

  10. #10
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    So if I read that right you didn't put any tape under the foam, just over it? And the 'contact patch' between the rim and tape is more or less just the bead shelf??
    Whatever floats your bike, dude

  11. #11
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    Very nice and thurough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dustin Mustangs View Post
    So if I read that right you didn't put any tape under the foam, just over it? And the 'contact patch' between the rim and tape is more or less just the bead shelf??
    correct. all i did was do three layers of gorilla tape (left/right/center), melt the valve hole out w a soldering iron and put air in w a compressor. providing that seals up ok i then take out the valve core and huck some stans in and shake.
    so far its worked flawlessly on 3 efforts on rolling darryls W/O cutouts.

  13. #13
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    Hey;

    SUPERB, clear, concise write-up with great images, Ozz. Not the first, but likely the best!



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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrailMaker View Post
    Hey;

    SUPERB, clear, concise write-up with great images, Ozz. Not the first, but likely the best!



    -
    yup by far the ozzyiest (just made that up ) if i understand the 1st post correctly regarding the absence of a tube it requires more air volume to match a tubed setup in order to have the same ride feel yes??

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    I post this in the other thread but i think its very important to inspect the bead of the tire for any inperfections and remove them with sand paper or if you are careful a die grinder. I found that out the hard way after I had leaks on a spilt tube method.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by exp18 View Post
    I post this in the other thread but i think its very important to inspect the bead of the tire for any inperfections and remove them with sand paper or if you are careful a die grinder. I found that out the hard way after I had leaks on a spilt tube method.
    Very True...

    Of ALL of the the surfaces involved. Car race tires are the same way. The beads are so stiff and with little extra rubber to absorb junk, that if anything gets in there (casting flashing, bead bits, little stones, rim corrosion or nicks, whatever) it will leak, and race tires already leak like crazy anyway. Flat every morning, sometimes, if you don't pay close attention when mounting them.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Ok set number 2.

    These have been a *****, i have tried these 3-4 times with no luck.Hopefully things have changed.
    These are 47mm Trialtech SL's. They already had a rimstrip weighing 55g as there was a full wrap of gorilla tape on them from the last unsucessful tubeless attempt.

    I removed the old rimstrip and added the foam and new gorilla tape, total gained was 45g more from what they were, the original rimstrip could have been lighter but nevertheless 220g q-tube superlite minus 45g = 175g saved (rimstrip is additional 55g) per wheel. Both wheels have had 70ml of stans added.

    First thing was to block the holes that would let the air escape into the rim and out the butted joint. Filled with epoxy metal putty and a smear of loctite on the joint.




    Same as before, filled the valley with foam. Then taped up.







    These went up with the same 1-2 pumps but did not pop onto the bead, thats why i will try and sort these out first as the other wheels are 100%. I cant burp the bead or let any air out until they are nearly flat but tonights ride will make things clearer. They are currently holding air (after stans blocked about 10 holes from thorns) at 10psi and i will drop that gradually down to about 7psi for testing purposes.

    Hopefully all works well and they stay on the rims, cheers for tips

    4 wheels now tubeless !!!!

    Nice work dude!! Persistence pays! You will absolutely love riding tubeless on your fatbike. I think the benefits are totally magnified by the big wheels... Especially the aspect of rolling resistance. You will feel it immediately.

    Let us know how it goes!

    Cheers,
    MG
    I like bikes

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Just did a 35km loop, wheels performed beautifully.

    One thing that has surprised me, i usually ran these wheels/tyres at 9psi on dirt

    I started the ride with 10psi in the tyres (digital gauge), i took the gauge with me to drop air out as i went.... wrong. I had to add a little bit making both tyres to 11psi to feel the same as they did previously with tubes fitted.
    You'll likely start to get a feel for the fact that you can go lower and lower with your pressure as your confidence in the tubeless setup grows. You'll start to understand that feeling the rim gently tapping the ground every once and a while isn't the worst thing in the world when you're running tubeless (unless you're riding in really rocky terrain).
    I like bikes

  19. #19
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    Does this method work for folding bead tires or only wire bead?

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    thanks for the post..

    I've got Large Marge Rims and the 27tpi Larry and Endos.. would these combinations be tubeless compatible? What's the process?

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    "Just used gorilla tape and Stan's but no center filler. What is the reason needed for the center foam?"

    I was wondering the same?? What is the purpose of the filler, center foam or any foam at all?? Seems like you could just use the existing rim strip or no rim strip and just run 3 strips of gorilla tape around rim carefully covering up to bead edge on rim as pictured in this thread and be done?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gruitr1 View Post
    "Just used gorilla tape and Stan's but no center filler. What is the reason needed for the center foam?"

    I was wondering the same?? What is the purpose of the filler, center foam or any foam at all?? Seems like you could just use the existing rim strip or no rim strip and just run 3 strips of gorilla tape around rim carefully covering up to bead edge on rim as pictured in this thread and be done?
    As far as I understand it, the foam really just helps with mounting and first taking air. Without the foam, there would be too much room for air to escape between the tire and rim when first airing up.

  23. #23
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    Seriously, all that work for 1/2 lbs? I just don't get it.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivrmutt View Post
    Seriously, all that work for 1/2 lbs? I just don't get it.
    Loosing the weight is is very nice side-effect but the whole concept of tubeless is puncture and pinch flat elimination and also ride quality.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Loosing the weight is is very nice side-effect but the whole concept of tubeless is puncture and pinch flat elimination and also ride quality.
    Agreed.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DubzOxford View Post
    Does this method work for folding bead tires or only wire bead?
    Both sets i used are folding beads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustin Mustangs View Post
    So if I read that right you didn't put any tape under the foam, just over it? And the 'contact patch' between the rim and tape is more or less just the bead shelf??
    The Marge lites have a small line of tape on either side holding the clear sparkly polythene rimstrip in place but in short the answer is yes, both wheels have the gorilla tape stretch fitted the full width and its only contacting the bead shelf
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by easterntide View Post
    What is the reason needed for the center foam?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gruitr1 View Post
    What is the purpose of the filler, center foam or any foam at all?? Seems like you could just use the existing rim strip or no rim strip and just run 3 strips of gorilla tape around rim carefully covering up to bead edge on rim as pictured in this thread and be done?
    I did this way because it worked successfully on other members here, theres plenty of other threads already posted that i copied to do these. It made sense and i could see exactly what advantage it would give but i am still shocked at the ease they inflated, 1-2 pumps and the tyre bead was touching the rim bead

    The main reason is fat tyres are super "baggy" and actually fall off the rim, no tyre levers needed with these getting the tyre bead up on or near the rim bead to start building pressure is the harderst part and the foam does this for you.

    Filling the "valley" with foam stops the bead falling into the valley and forces a tighter fit so once you start inflating, the bead has already got a semi-seal on the built up foam and the slighest bit of pressure and its moving towards the bead ready to seal. Trying to inflate them without this foam is a painful job, the tyres can be easily changed out and inflated again tubeless with a track pump.

    Non of the fat tyres are meant to be inflated tubeless and the QC on them doesnt seem flash, also apart from UMA rims i dont think there is any that are meant to be used for tubeless either.

    There loads of different ways of doing this and doing it without foam might be as easy for you with you tyre/rim combo. I have tried a few times with the Trialtech/HuDu and also on my GFS/larry-endos without success, now this time the foam has made all the difference.
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  28. #28
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    What did you use as valve if no split tube? Thanks

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    I did this way because it worked successfully on other members here, theres plenty of other threads already posted that i copied to do these. It made sense and i could see exactly what advantage it would give but i am still shocked at the ease they inflated, 1-2 pumps and the tyre bead was touching the rim bead

    The main reason is fat tyres are super "baggy" and actually fall off the rim, no tyre levers needed with these getting the tyre bead up on or near the rim bead to start building pressure is the harderst part and the foam does this for you.

    Filling the "valley" with foam stops the bead falling into the valley and forces a tighter fit so once you start inflating, the bead has already got a semi-seal on the built up foam and the slighest bit of pressure and its moving towards the bead ready to seal. Trying to inflate them without this foam is a painful job, the tyres can be easily changed out and inflated again tubeless with a track pump.

    Non of the fat tyres are meant to be inflated tubeless and the QC on them doesnt seem flash, also apart from UMA rims i dont think there is any that are meant to be used for tubeless either.

    There loads of different ways of doing this and doing it without foam might be as easy for you with you tyre/rim combo. I have tried a few times with the Trialtech/HuDu and also on my GFS/larry-endos without success, now this time the foam has made all the difference.
    Great thread on your technique; well executed---I'd try it but I seem to be getting by OK ghetto-style w/o the foam. It might be worth mentioning that when using this method to be sure to use "closed-cell" foam; there are "open-cell" weather-stripping tapes and they'd act just like a sponge if the wheel was immersed---talk about heavy!
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  30. #30
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    Thanks Ozzy for posting your efforts.

    Well explained and must say the lighting really shows off your handy work; (by design?...or luck?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by boogman View Post
    What did you use as valve if no split tube? Thanks
    I don't think he is using a valve as that's not accounted for in the weight

  32. #32
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    No way, 10g valves are too heavy

    For the two sets of wheels i used 3 proper tubeless valves and 1 made from a tube.

    If you have old tubes with valves that have removable cores just cut round the valve and leave a 10mm circle all around, its just as good bought valves and in a lot of cases cheaper too as the valves are about $10 each .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sand Rat View Post
    the lighting really shows off your handy work; (by design?...or luck?)
    It was stinking hot outside, just lucky lighting as i did all the taping inside in aircon'd comfort.
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  34. #34
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    Nice work!

    So now, just to play devils advocate for a moment, why Gorilla tape as opposed to split tube?

    I love G tape (the most badass duct tape ever made!), but it is heavy as far as duct tape goes, nice and dense, but heavy. Yeah, not *that* heavy, okay, relax out there...

    The reason I like the split tube is the extra room it takes up and the bead socket, as well as the extra sealing around the bead. Also makes you not have to go around and seal all the tiny drain holes in the rim.

    Sure, the sealant takes care of the sealing, but if it has help, it'd seem to be a good thing.

    Think bead socket room reduction ala Stan's rims with their BST, mixed with the butyl wrapped beads on the current crop of "tubeless ready" tires, and you can see what my thrust here is.

    I also have a theory working off of Mikesee's issues with thinking the beads are slipping under heavy load/low pressures, that the butyl wrap on the bead will help hold it more tightly than just the aluminum rim.

    All good, just discussing relative merits and potential downfalls/benefits of both concepts.

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  35. #35
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    Ive always been tubeless with tape and valves, and the foam in the middle make its easy to inflate with a floor pump. Tyres are easily changed and on the off chance of a puncture that doesnt seal up its as simple as removing the valve and put a tube in.
    The main reason to tape it up is holding the foam in place, if i was running a split tube i would still have to have some kind of tape for the foam, it might as well be gorilla tape and forget the tube.

    No tube hanging out the side of the tyre would make it a neater looking job too i would think.
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  36. #36
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    My Surly Cycling cap is off to those of you that were able to make your Holy Rolling Darryl’s tubeless. I thought about going tubeless since day one when I got my Neco. I scanned the pages of the fat bike forum looking for suggestions and final decided to make the plunge this morning. I grabbed a roll of Gorilla tape, a set of Stans tubeless valves, some foam to fill the valley, and started off on my unknown venture. Everything went just as planned, I put the final strip of tape across the rim, put my valve in, mounted my 120tpi Knard and to the compressor I went. I attempted to fill the tire with absolutely no luck. No matter what I did I could not get the tire to fill with air. In frustration and lack of time, I removed all the items that created my useless Tubeless system. The ball of tape, foam and valve that I had in my hand felt rather heavy. For grins I took out my scale and weighed the mess. 200 grams on the noise. With the 265 gram tubes in which I was going to replace, I decided to hold off on another attempt to go tubeless.
    Until I can figure out my mistake, I will live with the 130 gram combined difference.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Ive always been tubeless with tape and valves, and the foam in the middle make its easy to inflate with a floor pump. Tyres are easily changed and on the off chance of a puncture that doesnt seal up its as simple as removing the valve and put a tube in.
    The main reason to tape it up is holding the foam in place, if i was running a split tube i would still have to have some kind of tape for the foam, it might as well be gorilla tape and forget the tube.

    No tube hanging out the side of the tyre would make it a neater looking job too i would think.
    Both systems work, all good there.

    Just fyi, no need for taping the foam with split tube though. Rim strip, foam, split tube, roll it.

    Nice sharp razor, and I get a nice clean cut, right next to the tire. Can't even tell it's there.

    Regardless, I do love tubeless.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  38. #38
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    I'm waiting to hear back from Eclipse about whether they can make a fat tube.

    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    I'm waiting to hear back from Eclipse about whether they can make a fat tube.
    $100 tube ha

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiniTrail View Post
    people have said that about tires. Now, to us, a $100 tire is cheap
    Slightly different, let me know when you find a $10-15 fat bike tire.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTR2ebike View Post
    $100 tube ha
    I'll be lugging my bike up and down a mountain for 24 hours in January. Come the 23rd hour, I'd happily pay more than that to lose well over 1 lb from my bike.
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  42. #42
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    Ozzy, followed your method for setting up my Marge Lites tubeless today. (27tpi Larry front, 27tpi Endo rear). Worked well from what I can tell. Haven't had a chance to ride it yet though.

    I am glad the previous owner of my house left a roll of laminate flooring foam. Finally found a use for it

    Thanks a ton!!!

    Decorative duct tape for a "rim strip" on my setup...figured why not.

    Last edited by sickmtbnutcase; 12-08-2012 at 06:24 PM.

  43. #43
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    Nice one !!! Well that's made the write up worthwhile already. So it's worked on wire bead tyres too then
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  44. #44
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    After spiking one tyre with a stick and when i went to put a tube in it i seen that the pressure has collapsed my foam i decided to try something different.

    Gorilla tape weighs a bit and its very messy leaving glue stuck everywhere.

    So i got 2 x 55m rolls of 3M Tensalized packing tape, basically wide stans tape.

    Also got some non-memory foam so it would not compact under pressure.

    To make it worthwhile and make sure it wasnt making the combo heavier i weighed each stage.

    Wheel as is with only gorilla rim tape and clear plastic was 1820g


    Rim tape removed, 1745g meaning my rim tape was 75g.... which was a bit surprising.


    New Vinyl rim tape installed and 1 wrap of 3M tape was 1795g, meaning my new vinyl tape is 50g per wheel.


    Blue 3M tape covers the vinyl 100% so its airtight.


    New non-memory foam fitted, 1845g.


    Taped right up and over the sides.


    Trimmed back tight to the bead with a sharp knife and excess removed.


    View of finish taping job, im excited as its turned out as i expected
    When the tyre pops on the bead the tape will be locked behind it similar to ghetto tubeless meaning the sealant or air cant escape down beside the tape.


    Total weight of 3 wraps of tape was 10g, bringing the total weight to 1855g meaning that the TOTAL tubeless conversion including the heavy vinyl rimstrip was 110g. The rimstrip could be done with the 3M blue tape for under 10g if you like blue as a colour.... so a 70g conversion is possible.
    Q-tube SL still weighs 220g, my new tubeless is 110g with this light tape.



    Conversion was easy, the longest time taken was cleaning the residual gorilla tape off... took about 1 hour of hard labour

    End result, 2 pumps with the track pump and the tyre was at the bead, at approx 13psi the first bead popped and around 15psi the other went on.

    Hopefully this is it dialled now.

    Happy Toobless.

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  45. #45
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    Nice work Ozzy. Where would I buy some of that 3M tape... and what do I ask for?
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  46. #46
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    Muzz, i searched all over for it, the US has it in loads of sizes including 72mm but the postage from RS Hughes in the US was $120 for 2 rolls of tape

    Element14 here in Oz does the 48mm and thats the only place i could find it here. They do free shipping on orders over $45 so i got 2 rolls and stuck 4 x $1.75 tape measures (can never find one in my house) on just to bump it over the freebie postage price.

    cheers.
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    Look forward to hearing how this new tape holds up over time

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    Maybe I missed it but how much Stan's are you using?

  49. #49
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    2 scoops, weighs 60g'ish. Same amount i was injecting into my Qtubes.
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  50. #50
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    Ozzy, this looks very promising but I have to ask: you really get away with just 2 scoops of Stans in this? I'm not sure that I'd trust less than 3, and I have no need to seal holes just cover the inner surface of the tire.

    For those of us NOT riding in the thorny outback this is still heavier than q-tubes (without sealant), but only nominally. I really wish someone could do some quanitifyable analysis on tubes vs no-tubes with fat-bike tires.
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  51. #51
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    Not understanding you calculations ? I have done this now 5 times and done the calcs everytime. Im only posting it up here to help others decide.

    My bare wheel is 1745g, setup tubeless is 1855g so 110g total for the tubeless setup. Q-tubes weigh 220g and thats without a rimstrip. How much are your rimstrips weighing ? add that to the 220g.

    Its well under half the weight of the lightest tube'd setup.

    If you want to add 2 scoops of stans its a total of 170g, even 3 scoops takes it to around 200g. I was adding 2 scoops to my Qtubes anyway as small punctures here are a PITA, ive been tubeless for 5 years on all my other bikes.... i couldnt go any longer with tubes in the fat wheels.

    Adding more stans only makes it last longer, 2 scoops is plenty for 2-3 months then just add some more. Theres no need to fill the wheel with it because if you get a stick puncture it only going to spit the lot of it on the trail anyway.
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    A Surly rim strip weighs over 100 grams.

    Two things to note when comparing weighs of tubeless vs. tubed:

    In a tubeless setup the weight is closer to center, which means it affects acceleration less.
    Also the sealant is liquid, which is not the same as solid weight when it comes to acceleration.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saul Lumikko View Post
    A Surly rim strip weighs over 100 grams.
    Even with the lightest rim strip configuration, tubeless with this 3M tape, Vinyl rimstrip and foam is still half the weight.

    Saul im not 100% on your theory of rolling water, at a certain speed all the liquid gets centrifugally displaced around the worst place there is.... being the inside of the tread wall.

    But after my findings, im sure theres a lot of riders out there that are not even counting rim strips.... they are a shocking weight unless you have been careful with them.
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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Even with the lightest rim strip configuration, tubeless with this 3M tape, Vinyl rimstrip and foam is still half the weight.
    Ozzy, again I think you are coming up with a good system here. BUT, I don't see how you can claim its "half the weight" of a tubed system. Maybe if you have a tube with sealant in it, which for your purposes may be necessary, but for me, and most fatbikers, is not.

    By your most optimistic math:

    110 g of tubeless rim set-up + 170g (only 2 scoops!) of sealant = 280 g
    100 g of Surly rim strop + 220 Q-tube = 320 g

    Lighter? Yes. Half the weight? not even close... 10% is more like it.

    Plus I think your calculations are optimistic. I would not run a 3.7" tire tubeless with any less than 3 scoops. Basic geometry tells you that a 3.7" tire has twice the surface area of a 2.2 tire, meaning you should probably add about twice as much sealant. And you can make your own rimstrip (as I did) that is lighter than the Surly strip, I think mine is around 60 grams.

    Still the weights are comparable. For me, the ease of changing a flat in sub-freezing conditions with gloves on seems higher with tubes than it would for tubeless, and that factor overrides a few grams of weight plus or minus, as far as I am concerned. Obviously for you puncture sealing is more critical. Different folks, different strokes.

    I want to know more about rolling resistance and ride quality of tubed vs tubeless. Positive impacts in these departments would compel me to give tubeless a try. Thanks for working through all the bugs for me
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    Quote Originally Posted by FishMan473 View Post
    For me, the ease of changing a flat in sub-freezing conditions with gloves on seems higher with tubes than it would for tubeless, and that factor overrides a few grams of weight plus or minus, as far as I am concerned.
    Changing a flat would be no different really.

    In a tubeless setup, break the bead, remove valve stem, install tube.

    In a tubed setup, break the bead, remove old tube, install new tube.

    I do agree on the amount of sealant though. 2 scoops in such a big tire doesnt sound like it would be very effective. Thats how much sealant I use in 29x2.2 tires.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fakie1999 View Post
    Changing a flat would be no different really.
    Except that you're likely to get wet, gooey and cold.
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  57. #57
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    This reminds me, I should clean out my AM/FR bike tires of the Stan's sealant... then I can post photos of Stan's Boogers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FishMan473 View Post
    Ozzy, again I think you are coming up with a good system here. BUT, I don't see how you can claim its "half the weight" of a tubed system. Maybe if you have a tube with sealant in it, which for your purposes may be necessary, but for me, and most fatbikers, is not.

    By your most optimistic math:

    110 g of tubeless rim set-up + 170g (only 2 scoops!) of sealant = 280 g
    100 g of Surly rim strop + 220 Q-tube = 320 g

    Lighter? Yes. Half the weight? not even close... 10% is more like it.

    Plus I think your calculations are optimistic. I would not run a 3.7" tire tubeless with any less than 3 scoops. Basic geometry tells you that a 3.7" tire has twice the surface area of a 2.2 tire, meaning you should probably add about twice as much sealant. And you can make your own rimstrip (as I did) that is lighter than the Surly strip, I think mine is around 60 grams.

    Still the weights are comparable. For me, the ease of changing a flat in sub-freezing conditions with gloves on seems higher with tubes than it would for tubeless, and that factor overrides a few grams of weight plus or minus, as far as I am concerned. Obviously for you puncture sealing is more critical. Different folks, different strokes.

    I want to know more about rolling resistance and ride quality of tubed vs tubeless. Positive impacts in these departments would compel me to give tubeless a try. Thanks for working through all the bugs for me
    I think he was saying 170g is total setup with 60g of sealant(2 scoops).

    So, 110g of valve,tape and foam + 60g of sealant = 170g
    220g tube + 100g rim strip = 320g

    not half, but pretty darn close.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by autodoctor911 View Post
    I think he was saying 170g is total setup with 60g of sealant(2 scoops).

    So, 110g of valve,tape and foam + 60g of sealant = 170g
    220g tube + 100g rim strip = 320g

    not half, but pretty darn close.
    spot on ^^^

    Plus I was adding the sealant to my tubes anyway.

    170g of sealant would be near 1/4 of a litre.
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    I think you're right about the flat tire situation too, if you do get a rip big enough to need a tube put in, it should be easy enough to pop the valve out of the way, and stick a tube in. So, unless you're trying to not have to carry a spare tube, and rely on a patch kit, It's about the same, and a patch kit would be very difficult in gloves.
    Besides, If you're going tubeless, it should be very rare that you get a flat at all.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Saul im not 100% on your theory of rolling water, at a certain speed all the liquid gets centrifugally displaced around the worst place there is.... being the inside of the tread wall.
    The difference between liquid and solid is not 100% this or that, there are lots of factors like viscosity and friction (liquids still have some). The point is that when you accelerate from standstill and the tire rotates 1/4 turns for example, the tube will rotate the exact same amount at the same time. Liquid will gradually pick up the speed and spread out to the tread wall, but at that point you're rolling already and weight location (far from center) isn't so critical. When you've reached the speed you keep, rolling weight matters very little. Going uphill you of course pull all the weight with you, but that includes you, all your gear and the bike regardless of where the weight is.

    It's not like liquid weight has zero effect on acceleration, but the effect is reduced compared to solid weight, so I think they can not be compared gram for gram. I'll rather take 100 grams of sealant in my tires instead of 100 grams of rubber.

    Going further would require a lot of testing to see how much exactly the difference is. All I say is that there is a slight difference in the favor of liquid.

  62. #62
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    Tubeless Tuesday.

    Do you know how long it took to find this thread again? Search is a fail. I'm carsick from scrolling. Worth it, redoing my tubeless, and I want that tape.

  63. #63
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    Schott, both my sets are still tight as ****. No leakage and the foam was holding up really well last time i looked.

    The tape looks like its done an awesome job.
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    Yup, same here (thanks to this thread). Have run some very low pressure for snow. bottomed out on the rim a few times with no ill effects. No burps. Essentially perfect so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Schott, both my sets are still tight as ****. No leakage and the foam was holding up really well last time i looked.

    The tape looks like its done an awesome job.
    Would that be the "Gorilla Tape" that is doing a great job?

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjdog800 View Post
    Would that be the "Gorilla Tape" that is doing a great job?
    No, the 8898 Strapping tape (blue). I will never stick Gorilla tape on a set of wheels ever again.

    Ive had about 5-6 rolls in different widths over the past 2 years and used it on every wheel ive had in that time, my enve wheels also came with Gorilla tape from the factory and i dont know why they stick with it, its heavy, it leaves a messy residue, it moves when air pressure pushes against it (more critical on fat wheels), it has or gets over time an uneven glue spread allowing tubeless fluid to go through and under it and the tyre bead sticks to the glue ripping threads off the tape when you remove a tyre.

    You tear the old stuff off to replace it and spend an hour plus getting glue off your rim seat/bead of each wheel.

    All 4 sets of wheels i have now are tubeless with the strapping tape and doing beautifully.

    IMO its terrible stuff but YMMV.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    No, the 8898 Strapping tape (blue). I will never stick Gorilla tape on a set of wheels ever again.

    Ive had about 5-6 rolls in different widths over the past 2 years and used it on every wheel ive had in that time, my enve wheels also came with Gorilla tape from the factory and i dont know why they stick with it, its heavy, it leaves a messy residue, it moves when air pressure pushes against it (more critical on fat wheels), it has or gets over time an uneven glue spread allowing tubeless fluid to go through and under it and the tyre bead sticks to the glue ripping threads off the tape when you remove a tyre.

    You tear the old stuff off to replace it and spend an hour plus getting glue off your rim seat/bead of each wheel.

    All 4 sets of wheels i have now are tubeless with the strapping tape and doing beautifully.

    IMO its terrible stuff but YMMV.
    Thanks for the clarification! What width do you use and where did you get it?

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    The only tape I could find close to suitable in middle-earth was called BearTape (I think it's the same as gorilla), with a strip on the left side, right side and in the middle. It weighted in pretty close to a surly 90g rim strip, but the sealant was coming out through the cut outs and unused spoke holes it needed another couple wraps to seal. I thought I was losing some weight with my 18g of nylon and packing foam then the tape went on
    Blue tape looks to be the ticket.

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    I just taped my Surly rimstrip on the rim with Stan's tape. It might be a 50g heavier solution than without the rimstrip, but I get to keep the cool blue rimstrip.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjdog800 View Post
    Thanks for the clarification! What width do you use and where did you get it?

    If you are in the US you can get it from RS Hughes in any width, i could only get it in 48mm here so that was the width i used.
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    Anyone find the 8898 tape in anything wider than 72mm? I'm trying to go tubeless on a set of Holy Rolling Daryls with 120tpi HD's. One wheel seated up with some foam and gorilla tape, but the other won't seat up no matter what I try. I've tried split tube, foam, gorilla tape + stans in the bead socket... just won't air up.
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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by alshead View Post
    Anyone find the 8898 tape in anything wider than 72mm? I'm trying to go tubeless on a set of Holy Rolling Daryls with 120tpi HD's. One wheel seated up with some foam and gorilla tape, but the other won't seat up no matter what I try. I've tried split tube, foam, gorilla tape + stans in the bead socket... just won't air up.
    I was able to get my HuDu to seat up on a Rolling Darryl with just gorilla tape. I had to put a tube in, seat the beads, unseat one side, pull the tube out, and then was able to get the other bead to seat with a compressor... it wasn't exactly easy, as I did have to kind of pull up on the sidewall to get it to pop on... a pair of extra hands helps.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by alshead View Post
    Anyone find the 8898 tape in anything wider than 72mm? I'm trying to go tubeless on a set of Holy Rolling Daryls with 120tpi HD's. One wheel seated up with some foam and gorilla tape, but the other won't seat up no matter what I try. I've tried split tube, foam, gorilla tape + stans in the bead socket... just won't air up.
    I put Larry's on my Daryls. Layer of foam, then Standard Gorilla overalpped for width. Do not put tape in the bead area. Inflate w/compressor Until it beads. Fill through valve w/ syringe. Has not leaked a pound since January.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by alshead View Post
    Anyone find the 8898 tape in anything wider than 72mm? I'm trying to go tubeless on a set of Holy Rolling Daryls with 120tpi HD's. One wheel seated up with some foam and gorilla tape, but the other won't seat up no matter what I try. I've tried split tube, foam, gorilla tape + stans in the bead socket... just won't air up.
    The Hudu's were a bit problematic for me on the Holy RD's, figure out which side is giving you the most grief seat that side with a tube then pull it out and seat the other. If that doesn't work you can always grab the hairspray and lighter if you don't have a compressor.

  75. #75
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    Been reading this thread with interest. I have just bought an On-One fatty and at some point want to go tubeless. I'm a bit torn now between this method with tape and foam or the split tube method.

    I have just found some 48mm 3M 8898 strapping tape but it's £32 a roll!

    I have a question about seating the valve when using the foam. When you put the valve thorugh and tighten up the nut does the valve base seal agaist the tape ok? Do you not run the risk of tightening it and pulling the valve through the tape?

  76. #76
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    I would be having another look, im taking it you are in the UK by the currency quoted

    Here's a better price for starters Tapes | Farnell United Kingdom | Results
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    Couple questions for you Ozzy...

    Would it be possible for you to post the manufacturers part number on the 55mm wide 3M tape you found? Might make Google searches for each region more effective.

    The "vinyl rim tape" you mention... is this just some sort of non-stick vinyl strapping?

    The second attempt using the 3M tape and vinyl strip used no foam whatsoever, correct?

    Thanks for the help... appreciate all the documentation and answers you have posted.
    Just keep pedaling...

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  78. #78
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    Here you go - **Scotch® Film Strapping Tape 8898 Blue, 48 mm x 55 m, 24 per case Bulk

    The vinyl rims strips are cut from a roll of vinyl cloth at a craft shop, vinyl that is used in dressmaking, basically coloured waterproof cloth.

    The second attempt, and third and fourth i always use 10mm EVA foam. This non memory foam makes it easy to inflate tyres with a floor pump.

    Good luck with your conversion.
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    Awesome.... thanks a lot!!
    Just keep pedaling...

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  80. #80
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    I have just done a little experiment tonight successfully.

    I have used ripstop nylon as the rim strip, weighs about 1-2g for 2 wraps, feels like feather weight, my scales wont even register.

    Then 2 wraps of 8898 tape @ less than 10g.

    The ultralight HuDu was inflated on the margelite rim for a week at 30psi with a tube, i deflated and took them off, cleaned the old tape off the rim then did the new lightweight taping, put the tyre on with a tube then inflated... popping both beads.

    Carefully removed 1 bead seal and the tube then screwed in a tubeless valve with 1 bead still seated.

    I then put some soapy water on the remaining unseated bead, set the wheel horizontally on a bucket (so the unsealed bead was being forced down with gravity and inflated it with a track pump popping the other bead and sealing the tyre onto the rim successfully.

    So tomorrow when i get time i will inject 60-80ml of stans into the tyre through the valve stem and see if i can seal it.

    So the complete rimstrip with tape is around 10-15g in total.

    Will keep yous updated when i add the stans and try to get the tyre sealed.

    My whole idea with this is as an out and out race wheelset.
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    Tubeless Tuesday.

    Got a 907 built up for my wife and daughter a week ago and it flatted yesterday so I decided to take it tubeless like my surly.
    The HDs on Rolling Darrel's sure didn't take to the Getto tubeless setup as quickly as my Marge Lites with Escalators. Those have been set up for six months with no issues. I unseated one side to check the Stan's fill and it was still pretty good. Added one scoop and seated it back up with a compressor. Not even a "Stan's ball" to take out.
    Back to the HDs... Split and mounted a tube over the surly rim strip, set on the tire, doused it all with soapy water, and tried to use my compressor to fill through the valveless stem. No luck. Wrapped a strap around the tire to push it out some on the rim and it finally aired up after giggling and rotating the tire a bit. Extra hands would make it easier. Quickly put the valve core back in and pumped it up to 30. Never got the Pop I got with the escalators as they seated on the rim but it looks like it is seated properly and is holding pressure.
    The extra width on the rolling Darrel made it a lot harder to air up compared to the Marge lites as there is a lot more space for air to escape.

  82. #82
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    Did you tell your wife about the mod? If not, it would be a great way to gain feedback from a rider who might not understand the differences. Ask your wife if the bike feels different.

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    2014 Scott CX Comp (gravel grinder)
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    I'm a beer drinker with a mountain bike problem...

  84. #84
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    Ordered supplies to go tubeless-

    orange seal tubeless valves- I like the larger rubber foot on these but it made me think (after I bought them) that I could have made my own from some blown 700cc tubes...

    Plan on using Tyvek Tape to seal up the rims, no foam, Stan's sealant, and some 3M reflective tape on the Surly rimstrip.

    Will update when I get the supplies and get it done!

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    Did you tell your wife about the mod? If not, it would be a great way to gain feedback from a rider who might not understand the differences. Ask your wife if the bike feels different.
    After a couple rides, wife hasn't noticed a difference. I think she's still in the honeymoon stage with this bike and hasn't found any quirks to mention... yet.

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    The 8898 blue tape is a bit hard to find by the roll rather than the case . Here are the 2 links(by the roll) already mentioned in this thread.
    The 72 (2 7/8")
    Welcome to R.S.Hughes

    The 48mm (1 7/8")
    3M Scotch 8898 Synthetic Rubber Film Strapping Adhesive Tape, 4.6 mil Thick, 60.14 yds Length x 1-7/8" Width, Blue: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

    And here is a link to 2" x 165' Tyvek tape that some people use with success

    Amazon.com : Tyvek Sheathing Tape 2" x 165' : Patio, Lawn & Garden


    Also if you are using glue, rubber cement (Elmers $1.49) is not quite the same as vulcanizing fluid. The Elmers type stuff is made to peel off paper. Either will work but the tire specific stuff has other additives to cause cross linking and it sticks better. However, if they sell it at an auto store (Napa, Autozone) or farm store (Farm Fleet, Tractor supply) it may be called rubber cement. They sell Slime brand "rubber cement" made specifically for tires/tubes 8 oz for $5.99. Buying online incurs shipping fee to include "Hazmat" label.
    Last edited by k.b.; 10-06-2013 at 05:31 AM.

  87. #87
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    Supplies showed up yesterday so I went to work-

    Clownshoe with Bud tire
    Removed the surly rimstrip, cleaned it off and put a strip of reflective tape down it and put it back on the rim.

    Ran 1 strip of 2" tyvek tape down each side of the rim (not fully in contact with the side of the rim) then I ran a stripe down the center of the rim.

    Put the tube back in and pumped her up to 30 psig, left it in for maybe 15 minutes. Left one side of the tire on the rim if felt like the bead was set. Pulled the tube out and put in the orange seal tubeless valve, used the o-rings.

    I messed around for probably an hour trying to get the bead to set- decided after 30 minutes to put the Stan's in since I didnt want to have to break the bead again... Using a strap and a lot of luck I finally got the bastard to air up. Did the stan's shake- couldnt get the tire to hold air so I put it on the bike and rode it around and that seemed to do the trick- aired it up super tight and left it overnight.

    This AM the b#tch was flat... pulled off the tire and washed everything off. Going back for round two when I get home.

    I am guessing that I need to run the tape closer to the edge of the rim- it was a slow leak so I am going to go back over all the tape too.

    any other suggestions or obvious errors based on my write up??

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizzard75 View Post
    any other suggestions or obvious errors based on my write up??
    Did you use some soapy water to see where air was leaking out? Its hard to diagnose if you don't know where its leaking.

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    No, soapy water... thought I had it last night- Will use tonight though so I know if I have it sealed up!

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    Yeah even if it seems everyhing is sealed up and working well, the last thing I always do is spray it down with soapy water to see if there are any slow leaks.

    The sealant may just have not gotten a chance to seal the bead well, you might just need to add more sealant, shake it around a little more and see if it holds air. You may have jumped the gun a little by tearing it all down.

  91. #91
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    Nothing better than morning rage! Guess it just gives me more practice so my front wheel goes smoothly!

  92. #92
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    Has your tape covered the holes on the rim bead ? .... might be escaping from there into the rim join and getting free azza bird.
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    One place you really want to tape up is the holes on the bead near the weld seam on the Surly rims. Otherwise you will be trying to plug those with sealant and since the rim has hollow sections it might take ages and way too much sealant.

    I've been running Marge Lites with Husker Dus and Escalators for a year now and at the very beginning I tried to seal them with just rubber against the rim bead area. I ended up having lots of slow leaks when the tire was flexing around and concluded that I would have to use a lot of sealant to have them eventually seal so instead I went with a split tube method.

    I did experiment with wide gorilla tape that was placed from rim edge to rim edge where the tire had tape between it and the rim without direct contact for the tire to the rim. I found that the gorilla tape is too sticky and difficult to get into place without crimps around the bead area. Those crimps usually resulted in slow leaks, just like the bare rim.
    Wide tape that is easier to get in place and doesn't leave crimps or other leak prone areas might be more successful.

    I built up a Clownshoe wheelset for the same Husker and Escalator tires and opted for split tube directly without messing around with other methods. I will be running low pressures on the Clownshoe wheelset for the winter so small burps and slow leaks with a ton of sealant was something I wanted to avoid.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizzard75 View Post
    I am guessing that I need to run the tape closer to the edge of the rim- it was a slow leak so I am going to go back over all the tape too.

    any other suggestions or obvious errors based on my write up??
    I am assuming that you are using Tyvek tape only in order to save weight and that maybe you were able to get it for little or no cost. I really like the gorilla tape and I ran it all the way to the outside of the rim (trimming off excess on outside after pushing it down into the bead area). I've tried tape that is more slick and haven't liked the results. I just put new tape on mine last week because I drilled out some additional holes last week. It airs up and seals perfectly. I have absolutely no issues as mentioned in the earlier post about "crimps" in the tape in the bead area but I pull the tape extremely tight.

    I use these down to below 2 psi at times during the winter with no issues.


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    After your "Stan's shake" make sure you lay the wheel horizontal (I set mine on my soapy water bucket) as it allows the stans to settle to the tire/rim interface. Visit it about 4 times with 15 minute intervals to give it another shake and set it back horizontal on the opposite side. I've had great luck doing HuDu's and Escalators on Marge Lites and Rolling Darryls.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Has your tape covered the holes on the rim bead ? .... might be escaping from there into the rim join and getting free azza bird.
    I'll second that... this is what gave me trouble first off. What I did is take a hot-glue gun and filled the suckers up. Worked perfectly.
    ...Be careful what you're looking at because it might be looking back...

  97. #97
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    Thanks everyone for the help! I cant wait to leave work to get back at it-

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    Dont think the tyvek tape is the right stuff for the job. Got home wrapped it all around the outside of the rim and aired it up- getting better at the bead snapping- soaped it up and it was leaking in one spot on the bead and in just about every rim hole- too much. I pulled it all off - tyvek tape sucks to remove btw, tears very easily.

    Split tube or Gorilla tape?? Pro's and Con's... I assume that the gorilla tape is lighter and the split tube is easier- which method is more robust?

    I have the tubeless valves so really I am going to go with gorilla tape- although I would prefer schrader valves over prestra... blah going gorilla- thanks again for all your help!

    After reading the thread better I think 8898 tape instead of gorilla- for now though I am going to put the tube back in so I can freakin ride my bike!

  99. #99
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    Ahhh.... another happy fatbiker with a tubeless fail.

    Its a friggin pain-in-the-a$$ going tubeless on fat wheels, worth it once you get it right but hurry up Stans tubeless fat rims I say !!!
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  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Ahhh.... another happy fatbiker with a tubeless fail.

    Its a friggin pain-in-the-a$$ going tubeless on fat wheels, worth it once you get it right but hurry up Stans tubeless fat rims I say !!!
    Oh come on ozzy. Most of the fails are people who aren't doing what works. They are trying to skimp and then it doesn't work and it goes down in the books as a fail.

  101. #101
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    It took me about 5 goes.... 5 times i had to put the tubes back in to go for a ride.

    Its alright for us now as we know what works, but for a noob to tubeless fat rims it can easily take a few attempts. I thought i was a tubeless guru of MTB wheels (tubeless on all bikes since 2008) people used to give me bizarre rim & tyre combos to make tubeless as they had failed but the fat rims still stumped me.... also the time consumed with the failed attempts was massive.
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  102. #102
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    Plug those jigging holes...

    ...if your rim has them. Don't count on the tape to do the job; if the tape creeps just a little bit you'll have a helluva leak!

    RE filler for same; I've used hot-melt glue, RTV silicone, 5-min 'poxy and JB Weld. All work just fine; even went to the trouble of using microballoon once but what's a couple of grams saved on a fatbike?

    I'd even use matchsticks and Gorilla Glue if they were handy (might just try that the next time).

    Just did another Large Marge ghetto-style (Gorilla tape) but somebody had absconded with my full roll of wide Gorilla tape so I used one wrap of 1" wide Gorilla over the nipple holes and taped the rest with electrical tape; worked just fine. The type of tape used doesn't seem to be all that critical as long as it's airtight, moisture-resistant and has a good quality adhesive.

    The main key for ghetto nirvana is to be sure the tire has been pre-shaped either by running it on a rim with a tube or just letting a tube expand it while off the rim (an afternoon in the backseat of a car parked out in the sun will speed this along)

    Also over-filling with whatever kind of sealant you're using helps; the excess can be sucked out later.
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  103. #103
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    I have Holy Rolling D's and Husker Du's front and rear. Last spring, I had some time when I wouldn't be riding, so I went for it. I used the folded foam in the middle and gorilla tape on my first one and the damn thing sealed right up- first try! I didn't get the gorilla tape into the bead sockets either. Sweet! I went for my front wheel and have tried damn near every version on here- foam, no foam, gorilla tape in the bead sockets, not in the bead sockets, stans tape in the bead sockets, gorilla tape across the middle, door sealing foam (the tubular foam strips) with gorilla tape, tying a belt around it, tube in with seated beads for a few days, and probably a few other combinations and nothing would do the trick. I've had a tube in it ever since. I plan on going at it again in the next few weeks, but it's nothing as easy as the myriad of rim/tire/ghetto/26/29/700c setups I've done on "skinny" rims. I've not resorted to using the aerosol can method mostly because I want to be able to duplicate the process and not rely on that "extreme" method.
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  104. #104
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    I guess I didn't have any issues. I looked at the different methods being used and decided how I wanted to approach it. I have played with some different tapes and foam and have what I am comfortable with. It seems that those who don't want to use foam struggle more than those who do. Some of the struggles I have read about recently are caused by: not plugging the holes in the rim, using just the rim strip with no tape, no sealant, and experimenting with various tapes.

  105. #105
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    Fatbike Tubeless - YouTube

    1. Anyone see something wrong with this method?
    2. Any idea what MM rims these are?

    I'm considering doing this on my 80mm RD's.
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  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armyballer View Post
    Fatbike Tubeless - YouTube

    1. Anyone see something wrong with this method?
    2. Any idea what MM rims these are?

    I'm considering doing this on my 80mm RD's.
    I believe they are 70mm rims he is using and I have no idea why he is going through all that work on a tubeless ready rim. All that is needed for that rim is one wrap of tape and blow the silly thing up.. As far as the method, there are people using all different variations of basically the same thing.

  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armyballer View Post
    Fatbike Tubeless - YouTube

    1. Anyone see something wrong with this method?
    2. Any idea what MM rims these are?

    I'm considering doing this on my 80mm RD's.
    It's a method that works but a few comments. First, instead of using soap and water to seat the tire I like to use some Stans (sealant) which helps once the tire is seated to seal the bead of the tire. Second, I like putting the Stans (sealant) directly into the tire before inflating the tire. Third, pumping the tire up with pressure on the bottom of the tire can deform the tire slightly making it a little harder for the air to fill the tire.

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by alshead View Post
    I have Holy Rolling D's and Husker Du's front and rear. Last spring, I had some time when I wouldn't be riding, so I went for it. I used the folded foam in the middle and gorilla tape on my first one and the damn thing sealed right up- first try! I didn't get the gorilla tape into the bead sockets either. Sweet! I went for my front wheel and have tried damn near every version on here- foam, no foam, gorilla tape in the bead sockets, not in the bead sockets, stans tape in the bead sockets, gorilla tape across the middle, door sealing foam (the tubular foam strips) with gorilla tape, tying a belt around it, tube in with seated beads for a few days, and probably a few other combinations and nothing would do the trick. I've had a tube in it ever since. I plan on going at it again in the next few weeks, but it's nothing as easy as the myriad of rim/tire/ghetto/26/29/700c setups I've done on "skinny" rims. I've not resorted to using the aerosol can method mostly because I want to be able to duplicate the process and not rely on that "extreme" method.
    Hudus are loosey goosey after a decent amount of use so it's not going to air up easy, adding foam is good but it also decreases the surface area where the tape attaches to the rim (too little and pressure pops it off causing endless cutout/spokehole leaks etc.) I have an ongoing battle with my rear wheel ;-)
    Would rather air mine up with a floor pump but that means you generally have to use foam (amount of foam required can change as tires change/age).
    I grab the kitchen blow torch and can of butane and roast any tire giving me grief, it's easy if you seat one side with a tube then remove tube add valve then blow that ****er up!

  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    Oh come on ozzy. Most of the fails are people who aren't doing what works. They are trying to skimp and then it doesn't work and it goes down in the books as a fail.
    Doing what everyone else does... does nothing for innovation. Tyvek tape should work and it should be superior to all the other tapes out there. I am doing something wrong, just not sure what it is. It probably comes down to a poor taping job.

  110. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    I believe they are 70mm rims he is using and I have no idea why he is going through all that work on a tubeless ready rim. All that is needed for that rim is one wrap of tape and blow the silly thing up.. As far as the method, there are people using all different variations of basically the same thing.
    So with mine being 80mm....I doubt the tube he uses will work on mine. Yea I know this isn't the lightest method out there but I like the idea of it much better then using all 3m tape. I could care less if my fatbike weights 30pds or 40pds.
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  111. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by DubzOxford View Post
    Does this method work for folding bead tires or only wire bead?
    I know this is an old post, but just re-reading the thread.

    I've used folding larry & endo, and both folding & wire 45 nrth hudu's all with success. The wire-bead huhu did require sitting on a rim with a tube for over a week to get the bead straight. It pops on nicely now though.

  112. #112
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    All this talk about tape method failures is making my ears bleed. I've used tape on my old MTB wheels and it works great but for the Fatties, I'm sold on the split tube method. I've set up two bikes with split tube and the absolute longest it took me to do a tire was 20mins. That was on a Rolling Darryl. The Marge Lites aired up in a heartbeat.
    I've also unmounted/remounted the tires with the split tubes and had no issues getting them to air-up.

    I pre-fill the tire with Stans, then take the valve core out and use a compressor to push in a constant air stream. Generous brushing of the tire and split tube with a soapy water rag helps make the seal and allows the tire to slide to the bead socket quickly. Once it's holding some air, pop in the valve core and use a hand pump to take it from a couple PSI to about 25PSI and watch as the tire moves into the bead socket with a satisfying "POP". A strap around the tire really helped with the wider Rolling Darryls. After set-up, I take a scissors and slice off the excess tube to within 3/16 of the rim for a nice look.

    No worries about making sure all the holes are filled or loosing a bunch of stans into them as they seal up. In fact, the tire-bead to split-tube interface is so tight, I've seen little, if any, stans come through and am confident it will be there ready to seal up holes caused by thorns in my area.

    I've used this on HuDu's and Escalators (folding).

  113. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizzard75 View Post
    Doing what everyone else does... does nothing for innovation. Tyvek tape should work and it should be superior to all the other tapes out there. I am doing something wrong, just not sure what it is. It probably comes down to a poor taping job.
    I think that the low coefficient of friction for Tyvek might be a problem. I also think that the best tubeless solutions for fat bikes only exist on the internet.
    Riding Fat and still just as fast as I never was.

  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizzard75 View Post
    Doing what everyone else does... does nothing for innovation. Tyvek tape should work and it should be superior to all the other tapes out there. I am doing something wrong, just not sure what it is. It probably comes down to a poor taping job.
    Gizzard, I agree with you on trying new stuff. I haven't tried Tyvek tape. I have tried a few other, what I will call slick tapes, and I haven't liked the way they look after being in the tire for a while with sealant. They don't seem to stay sealed where it overlaps very well.

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    Gizzard, I agree with you on trying new stuff. I haven't tried Tyvek tape. I have tried a few other, what I will call slick tapes, and I haven't liked the way they look after being in the tire for a while with sealant. They don't seem to stay sealed where it overlaps very well.
    The overlap near the rim edge is the exact spot that I had the most leaking. I dont think that Tyvek would be a robust enough tape after working with it the past few nights- I like the idea of it though!

    After doing more research I think the best solution for me is going to be a split tube set up. Once again thanks for everyone's input!

  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizzard75 View Post
    Dont think the tyvek tape is the right stuff for the job. Got home wrapped it all around the outside of the rim and aired it up- getting better at the bead snapping- soaped it up and it was leaking in one spot on the bead and in just about every rim hole- too much. I pulled it all off - tyvek tape sucks to remove btw, tears very easily.

    Split tube or Gorilla tape?? Pro's and Con's... I assume that the gorilla tape is lighter and the split tube is easier- which method is more robust?

    I have the tubeless valves so really I am going to go with gorilla tape- although I would prefer schrader valves over prestra... blah going gorilla- thanks again for all your help!

    After reading the thread better I think 8898 tape instead of gorilla- for now though I am going to put the tube back in so I can freakin ride my bike!
    Gizzard, did you try the Gorilla tape? I have tires with Gorilla tape that have lasted for a long time with no deterioration of the tape. I know it's not the lightest but it works well for me. I run the tape well past the outside of the rim while pulling it VERY tight (step on the bottom of rim as you pull the tape). I push the tape down into the bead area with something smooth and then trim the tape along the outside of the rim.

    I agree with you on the schrader valves instead of presta. They are sturdier and easier to work with. The motorcycle shop in town sells the BikeMaster brand of chrome tubeless stems and they have worked well.

    I do use foam as well which I think helps with tire staying seated and airing up.

    My Clownshoes look like this before tape.


    My choice of tape to be seen from the outside. Also, I drilled a lot of extra holes.


    Extra Firm self-sticking foam. I trim it a little after applying it.

  117. #117
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    I haven't decided to go any route just yet; I patched the original tube and threw it back in so I could enjoy some gravel in this fine Indian Summer!- I have some house work to do this weekend so I might have to run to the home improvement store and get supplies... I already have tubeless valves so it makes sense to go the tape route. I thought I read somewhere that foam wasnt needed with clownshoes but if it makes it easier then I am all for it. I guess my main objective is avoiding flats not so much saving weight (not that 10-20 grams of foam is what will be holding me back on a climb!)

  118. #118
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    Gizzard, you couldn't drag me back to using tubes. The foam works although it can be tough getting the tire up on it for the first time. I use the Ace brand Super Firm Sponge Tape, 3/8" (T) x 3/4" (W). My setup isn't the lightest but I do put a lot of miles on my bike without issues.

  119. #119
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    Good job on those rims Alphazz... a bit of time has went into that drilling. I like it !
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  120. #120
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    Thanks ozzy. Yeah, my son was giving me a hard time about spending too much time drilling, cutting, and grinding on that rim. I think it looks good from the outside.


  121. #121
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    As long as mum didn't hear him.... you don't want two of them joining forces and having a whinge

    Turned out well.... weight saved too ?
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  122. #122
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    ozzy, I wish I could say I cut a pound out of rim, but I can't. Close to 6 oz. though.

  123. #123
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    Going to give this a try as a double puncture yesterday annoyed me greatly, and I was in the house fixing it!!

    Has anyone in the uk found the 3M 8898 tape anywhere else than Ozzy's link to Farnells?? They have a minimum order limit

    I am also tempted by American Classic valve stems to match my Red & Black theme on the bike!!

    TUBELESS|VALVES
    Last edited by Flying_Scotsman; 10-05-2013 at 06:05 AM.

  124. #124
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    I don't like having presta valves on my fat bike, but I do like those American Classic valve stems.

  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    I don't like having presta valves on my fat bike, but I do like those American Classic valve stems.
    You might like these:


    949 racing black anodized aluminum valve

    Also available in grey and silver. No red {sigh}
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

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  126. #126
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    Wadester, I've meant to put the 949 valves on my bike but I have been happy with the steel ones I use. I have noticed that the 949 valves are only 8 grams and my chrome steel ones are 18 grams. I am making the switch the next chance I get.

  127. #127
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    Fail

    When I got home from work last night this is what I found:
    Tubeless Tuesday.-img_7420.jpg
    By the time I got home from my road ride this afternoon the front had gone flat too. The tire bead is still tight on the rim's bead hook, so that's good news, but air and sealant had gotten under my rim tape and and leaked out through the rim holes (and I have plenty of those to leak out of). They held air for a while like this with the Stan's sealing up all those leaks, but I know from working with standard width rims that your sealant set-up has failed if you have any sealant coming out through the spoke holes, which is pretty much the same issue.

    I really thought I was on to something, looks like I'm going to have to reevaluate. I tried to basically follow Ozzy's method, but I'm running the Holy Rolling Darryl rather than the Large Marge.

    Here's what I did:

    I went with pipe insulating foam for 1 3/4" pipe. Its closed-cell foam.
    Tubeless Tuesday.-fch_9241.jpg

    I cut it in half. Less than $3 worth covered both wheels almost perfectly with just a few inches left over from my 6' strip.
    Tubeless Tuesday.-fch_9249.jpg

    And spread it out flat over the bottom of the rim it ends up being just about perfect at 55mm wide. Fit pretty nice and took up a lot of volume, for only 18 grams per wheel!
    Tubeless Tuesday.-fch_9253.jpg

    I got the right tape, 49mm wide, so I figured I could use just 2 strips, one on the left, on on the right with about 15mm of overlap in the middle.
    Tubeless Tuesday.-fch_9246.jpg

    But I had a hard time getting a smooth finish on the rims, you can see a major fail in the lower right. I eventually tore all this tape off and started over. I got a smother finish the second time around, but not without a few minor wrinkles at the rim/tire bead interface.
    Tubeless Tuesday.-fch_9256.jpg

    So OzzyBMX, how did you get such a smooth finish with your tape?!?

    I'm thinking of trying again with 3 strips of tape. The middle one would just run down the middle of the foam strip, since the foam is about 55mm wide. But maybe it would be a better surface for the two edge tape strips to adhere to, and perhaps also give the middle foam more of a firm surface. That's probably worth 10 grams. But without a really smooth tape job on the sides like Ozzy has, I don't see how it could work.

    The other spot I could see air and sealant getting out is around the valve core. On the front wheel I tried using one from an old tube with a nice wide circle of rubber around it to spread out the compressive force. On the rear I used a American Classic valve core, and coupled it with a small sheet (1.5"x2.5") of hard, clear plastic I cut out of some packaging to help spread out the force of the valve stem over more of the surface of the foam. But perhaps this is the wrong approach... perhaps I should try more of a plug style valve stem, like the new WTB valves?
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  128. #128
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    ^^^i
    I like those.

    I thought I would update my tooblessness. I thought it time to put my winter tires back on. I did the front 120 Bud on a holy Darryl up just as I had in the past. Fancy duct tape pattern for the visual, then foam stuck to the backside of that tape, a clear filament tape to hold it down, and a split tube. I had a wicked ***** of a time getting it to seat, even with a tube around the outside and an air compressor, but it did go eventually. Unhappy with it though, the split tube just didn't let it seat as well as I have had it in the past, and it has the dreaded hop...but holding air.

    So on the back I decided to go without the tube. I did the same fancy tape, foam on that, then Gorilla tape. It took 3 runs, one on each side on the bead shelf, and one down the middle. I put a tube in, seated one side, put in my homemade valve stem. i dribbled stans around the bead instead of soapy water, and it went right up, boom, no problem, the bead actually popped in. It was running rounder than any fat tire I've had in. Awesome. Did the normal thing, shake, soap, check, shake, soap, check. The holes and spoke holes were a bit leaky, but it will seal.. Next morning, flat, do my thing, shake it. That night, flat. Same thing. 4 day fatty tour coming up in 5 days and I can't hold air more than 12 hours. I kept at it every morning and every night to no avail, but decided to go for the tour, carry a tube (obviously), and just keep an eye on it and air it up when needed. It wasn't needed. The morning the big ride was to start, that silly bastard of a tire was sitting there chock full of air, ready to ride some trails fully loaded. Still a bit nervous on it I ran a little higher pressure than I normally would the first day, 15 or better probably, but by the second day I was sure it was all set, dropped my pressures and the Cush factor held strong through hot days and cold nights for the whole ride, and my stoopid spare toob just weighed me down.

    Go ride your bike.

    Tubeless Tuesday.-imageuploadedbytapatalk1381014831.461479.jpg


    "You're like a Ferrari engine driving a dump truck"
    Last edited by Schott; 10-06-2013 at 08:12 AM.

  129. #129
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    Well I have found tesa 4289 strapping tape. its only 25mm wide but I got 66 meters on the roll so I can do a few wraps, was on £12.50 from eBay.

    Now for foam, like the look of the pipe lagging, no need for multiple layers, might grab a couple of lengths and then I am ready to rock n roll!

  130. #130
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    Fishman, I think your method looks good. I think even your plastic around the valve stem is a good idea since you are running some thick foam down the middle.

    A couple of ideas:

    Are you putting the plastic between the foam and the tape? That's where I would put it, taping over the top of the plastic (hopefully the edges of the plastic won't be too rough on the tape).

    Second, don't be afraid to stand on your rim while pulling the tape VERY tight, it helps to prevent wrinkles.

    Third, I really like gorilla tape. After taking mine apart, I've not found any areas where the tape seams are failing. I have with other tapes.

    Fourth, I agree with you on the strip down the middle for more overlap. 15mm is probably not enough with it being over the top of the foam.

    Fifth, Schott is right, use Stans around the bead instead of soapy water.

    Sixth, you are correct, Ozzy did a great job on his tape. He's probably a really strong guy who pulled the tape extremely tight.

  131. #131
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    Ozzy / Alphazz, what do you think the chances of inflating the tire (or Tyre to me ) without the foam?? I was thinking of popping the tyre onto the bead with a tube first like you have described Ozzy, taking the tube out, pouring in the stan's then compressor onto it and try to do it that way??

    Or even as I have seen done in another thread, a bit propane into it and light it like the 4x4 boys do??

    I am running Marge Lite's and 3.8 knard's so not got 5 inches of rubber to deal with!!

  132. #132
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    Foam is pointless if your using propane and your very unlikely to need it if you have a compressor.

  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying_Scotsman View Post
    Ozzy / Alphazz, what do you think the chances of inflating the tire (or Tyre to me ) without the foam?? I was thinking of popping the tyre onto the bead with a tube first like you have described Ozzy, taking the tube out, pouring in the stan's then compressor onto it and try to do it that way??

    Or even as I have seen done in another thread, a bit propane into it and light it like the 4x4 boys do??

    I am running Marge Lite's and 3.8 knard's so not got 5 inches of rubber to deal with!!
    It's not just getting the tire to seat initially, which has an art to it, it's making sure the tire will stay seated at the low pressures that some of us want to run.

  134. #134
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    Re: Tubeless Tuesday.

    Quote Originally Posted by OFFcourse View Post
    Foam is pointless if your using propane and your very unlikely to need it if you have a compressor.
    I found this to be not true. I did one clownshoe without foam and one with foam and the one without was a major pain in the a s s to get even started inflating. Ended up taking it apart and adding foam.
    ...Be careful what you're looking at because it might be looking back...

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by OFFcourse View Post
    Foam is pointless if your using propane and your very unlikely to need it if you have a compressor.
    Ok, no foam it is then!! Just need to wait for the bits to turn up!!

  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying_Scotsman View Post
    Ok, no foam it is then!! Just need to wait for the bits to turn up!!
    Do let us know how that works for you. (Pictures are nice.)

  137. #137
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    I haven't done clown shoes but everything is going to seat with propane and a lighter and if you seat one side with a tube it's got to be a seriously loose tire to not go up with a compressor. I don't run under 5psi very often but I get the impression most people are using foam for help with initial inflation, (because they only have access to a floor pump - like me) you would need to use a denser foam (like posted above) for it to offer any benefit beyond seating the bead.

  138. #138
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    Tight tape.... pull tight until your hands bleed

    You'll need the tightness to stop the sealant and air getting below your tape.
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  139. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying_Scotsman View Post
    Ozzy / Alphazz, what do you think the chances of inflating the tire (or Tyre to me ) without the foam?? I was thinking of popping the tyre onto the bead with a tube first like you have described Ozzy, taking the tube out, pouring in the stan's then compressor onto it and try to do it that way??
    I have recently got a HuDu onto a marge lite but using a tube then taking it out, then relied on gravity to help the other bead on. The tyre was in there for about a week at 25psi beforehand so it was in the general shape it needed to be in.

    Im looking forward to Stans fatbike rims !
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  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schott View Post
    ^^^i
    ... I had a wicked ***** of a time getting it to seat, even with a tube around the outside and an air compressor, but it did go eventually. Unhappy with it though, the split tube just didn't let it seat as well as I have had it in the past, and it has the dreaded hop...but holding air....
    I've used split tubes on several tires now and after airing it up with a compressor, I use a hand pump to slowly take to up to 25 or 30lbs and the beads have popped-in every time, both sides. Then I immediately take it down to riding a pressure of 8-10 lbs. No wheel hop and once seated on a split tube, that tire is not coming off regardless of how low the pressure. That tire stays seated tight-tight in the bead groove and I have found it is actually quite tough to break it off the bead when it's time to change the Stan's.

  141. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjdog800 View Post
    I've used split tubes on several tires now and after airing it up with a compressor, I use a hand pump to slowly take to up to 25 or 30lbs and the beads have popped-in every time, both sides. Then I immediately take it down to riding a pressure of 8-10 lbs. No wheel hop and once seated on a split tube, that tire is not coming off regardless of how low the pressure. That tire stays seated tight-tight in the bead groove and I have found it is actually quite tough to break it off the bead when it's time to change the Stan's.
    Yep, that's been my experience too. Once it's seated and holding, I sneak it up a little at a time, watching the low spot, and as soon as it seats, drop it down.

    Bead "lock" and air retention are fantastic.
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  142. #142
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    I tried all the other methods first to no avail. Originally I was trying to set up BFL's on Clownshoes. The bike now has NATE's on Clownshoes. The tire/rim bead interface just has too much gap. The split tube makes up the difference. Not only did the tires mount easily, they aired up with a hand pump. I have set the pressure from 4 psi to 15 psi and no leaks, no loss of pressure. As soon as the new bike arrives I will do it again with Bud/Lou on a Shoe.

  143. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Tight tape.... pull tight until your hands bleed

    You'll need the tightness to stop the sealant and air getting below your tape.
    I don't know if this has been mentioned but I use a hairdryer to heat the tape ever so slightly, it just helps it to conform and make it a little more pliable at least for fat Stans and tapes like it.

  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcappy View Post
    The tire/rim bead interface just has too much gap. The split tube makes up the difference.
    Just curious. I still have a lot of bead play, even with the tube. Are you running foam too?

    I found that a cheapo rubber 26" rim strip around the outside of the tire, settles the tire inward a touch, all around, and allows for a more uniform bead seating. It's allowed me to do them without the foam, easily, but with a compressor. Still nowhere near tight enough to seat with a floor pump.

    Wondering if your floor pump is about 6' high
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    I don't know if this has been mentioned but I use a hairdryer to heat the tape ever so slightly, it just helps it to conform and make it a little more pliable at least for fat Stans and tapes like it.
    This sounds like a good idea for smoother tape and for adhesion.

    I tried all the other methods first to no avail. Originally I was trying to set up BFL's on Clownshoes.
    I've ran a couple different BFL's on Clownshoes this summer with no issues.

  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    I don't know if this has been mentioned but I use a hairdryer to heat the tape ever so slightly, it just helps it to conform and make it a little more pliable at least for fat Stans and tapes like it.
    Do you warm it up before you apply it or do you do it after its applied to smooth out the wrinkles like shrink-wrap?
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  147. #147
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    Split tube, Holy Rolling Daryls and Husker Du's

    Finally got this setup to work. The split tube is the key.

    1) Picked up a 24x 2.4-2.75 presta tube (QTubes)
    2) Pink foam from Home Depot for building up the center channel

    Foam tape Folded in 1/2 and wrapped around (Surly rim strip in place):
    Tubeless Tuesday.-img_2952.jpg
    Foam taped into place with piece of 3" Gorilla Tape:
    Tubeless Tuesday.-img_2953.jpg
    24x2.4-2.75 QTube inflated lightly into place:
    Tubeless Tuesday.-img_2954.jpg
    Tube Split. You have to take a wet rag/ towel and clean all of the powder residue out of the tube:
    Tubeless Tuesday.-img_2955.jpg
    Still wouldn't seat up- you can see how big the gap is.
    Tubeless Tuesday.-img_2956.jpg
    A second layer of foam- this time, laid flat across the rim, taped in place above the valve hole, and then trimmed to just inside where the bead socket starts (top of channel):
    Tubeless Tuesday.-img_2959.jpg
    Putting the tire back on was a bit challenging and required some tire-lever assistance while pulling down on the edge of the split tube to keep it from folding under, but once on, it aired right up with no issues.
    Tubeless Tuesday.-img_2960.jpg
    Sealant (my own mix) inserted and split tube trimmed.
    Tubeless Tuesday.-img_2961.jpg
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  148. #148
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    I'm sure split-tube is functional, but to me it offers no advantages. It weighs more than a 2.5-3.0 mtb tube (without sealant), is harder to set-up than tubes and harder to repair in the field. I understand if you ride in a thorny area, but for me its taped or bust.
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  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by alshead View Post
    Finally got this setup to work. The split tube is the key.

    1) Picked up a 24x 2.4-2.75 presta tube (QTubes)
    2) Pink foam from Home Depot for building up the center channel

    Foam tape Folded in 1/2 and wrapped around (Surly rim strip in place):
    Foam taped into place with piece of 3" Gorilla Tape:
    24x2.4-2.75 QTube inflated lightly into place:
    Tube Split. You have to take a wet rag/ towel and clean all of the powder residue out of the tube:
    Still wouldn't seat up- you can see how big the gap is.
    A second layer of foam- this time, laid flat across the rim, taped in place above the valve hole, and then trimmed to just inside where the bead socket starts (top of channel):
    Putting the tire back on was a bit challenging and required some tire-lever assistance while pulling down on the edge of the split tube to keep it from folding under, but once on, it aired right up with no issues.
    Sealant (my own mix) inserted and split tube trimmed.
    Good pictorial! It didn't look like you were using soapy water on the tube & tire. For me, that made all the difference when trying to get it aired-up. Did it foam-less too.

    Once trimmed, the weight penalty of having a tube-rim-strip is not any worse than most tape jobs. Especially Gorilla tape.

  150. #150
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    I tried soapy water when I had just one layer of foam in, also tried running a strap around the tube to air it up, but neither worked- dunno if you're on RD's, but the center channel just swallows up the tire bead and, for me, I couldn't overcome that gap with anything other than more foam.

    My rear rim was done with foam and gorilla tape, but this front one wouldn't seat up with the same technique. Split tube did the trick.

    We don't have a ton of thorns, some goat heads and the like, but the bigger issue for me has been pinch flats with the tubes at low psi. At this rate, the split tube can't weigh much more than two runs of gorilla tape (which you need to do if you're trying to get it up into the bead sockets) and, most importantly, it worked.
    "There are two kinds of mountain bikers in the world: those who are faster than me, and me."

  151. #151
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    Taping. With Gorilla tape, I always go around the rim, holding the bottom of the rim to the floor with my feet, keeping tension on the roll of tape - but specifically getting the edge of the tape into the bead seat area. Since this means the edge is passing under the bead hook, you have to keep pulling the roll towards the inside to get the tape under the hook, then moving ahead with applying the tape to the bead seat. I get maybe 1/2" to an inch every cycle - but the result is smooth application to the whole bottom of the bead seat area.

    I note that I do not push the rest of the tape into place as I am doing this. Once you've gone completely around the rim - tape smooth and sealed in the bead seat - then you go around pressing the rest of the tape into place. And not all at once, either. Going around about a thumb width at a time making sure things are laying flat is well worth the effort.

    I'm working on 100's, either USC or Clownshoes. I use regular Gorilla Tape (1.88" wide) on one bead and "tough and wide" GT (2.88" wide) on the other for about 3/4" overlap. I put down the wide tape first, then the regular so the exposed tape edge is as far from where the tire bead will wipe over it as possible.
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

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  152. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Just curious. I still have a lot of bead play, even with the tube. Are you running foam too?

    I found that a cheapo rubber 26" rim strip around the outside of the tire, settles the tire inward a touch, all around, and allows for a more uniform bead seating. It's allowed me to do them without the foam, easily, but with a compressor. Still nowhere near tight enough to seat with a floor pump.

    Wondering if your floor pump is about 6' high
    MCS, here is my procedure for NATE's on Clownshoes/
    Install Surly rim strip:
    Install Q-Tube, 24 x 2.75, inflate a little, straighten the seam, slit all the way around with scissor, wipe off powder:
    Install NATE:
    Tie a rope around NATE and tighten enough to push tire out to bead area:
    Inflate with normal hand pump until tire bead seats:
    Remove valve core and add Stans, re-install valve core, pump to desired pressure:
    Trim off excess Q-Tube:
    Ride!

    NO foam, no tape, no problem!

  153. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by FishMan473 View Post
    I'm sure split-tube is functional, but to me it offers no advantages. It weighs more than a 2.5-3.0 mtb tube (without sealant), is harder to set-up than tubes and harder to repair in the field. I understand if you ride in a thorny area, but for me its taped or bust.
    Fish, the main reason for tubeless is to not have flat issues "in the field". Fat tubeless is totally different than any other tubeless tire application. In fact, I haven't heard anyone on here saying that they have had any flat issues in the field if they have a successful tubeless setup.

  154. #154
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    I shouldn't even say anything, but I have yet to deal with flatting in the wild.

    If flats aren't really a concern, would tubeless be worth the trouble? Some say the ride quality and tire profile at lower psi is improved.

  155. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    Fish, the main reason for tubeless is to not have flat issues "in the field". Fat tubeless is totally different than any other tubeless tire application. In fact, I haven't heard anyone on here saying that they have had any flat issues in the field if they have a successful tubeless setup.
    I mentioned this in another post a while ago. I was washing the bikes after a ride and I found a very large thorn sticking out of my wife's front Nate. I got the pliers out and pulled it out. A small pin head sized spot of Stan's appeared and that was that. If the tire had a tube in it I would have been fixing it out in the field with the Mosquitos eating me alive.

  156. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    If flats aren't really a concern, would tubeless be worth the trouble? Some say the ride quality and tire profile at lower psi is improved.
    I did tubeless conversion on my Fatty recently. I went tubeless because the sealant I've been using successfully on my regular MTB tires failed to seal a few small goathead punctures, presumably due to the 2.7" tubes stretched excessively. Those supposed improvements in traction/ride quality, if there was any, were my secondary concerns. I seldom ride on soft surface so I've been running 15 psi in tubes.

    After the conversion, tires definitely feel more pliable at the same pressure. It is almost as if I can feel each knob on the rear tire grabbing dirt as I start pedaling. Up front, it made the sidewall flex more than I like under cornering, so I ended up bumping up the pressure a little.

    It made big enough differences that I converted one of my regular MTBs to tubeless this past weekend. I noticed similar improvement, but not quite as pronounced as I experienced on fat tires.

    To me, it was well worth a couple hours of work. YMMV.

    One thing I don't know of is how well Stan's and other sealant work in sub-freezing temperature. It's not much of a concern for me (southwest resident), but it could possibly be a problem for people living up north.

  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katz View Post
    ...One thing I don't know of is how well Stan's and other sealant work in sub-freezing temperature. It's not much of a concern for me (southwest resident), but it could possibly be a problem for people living up north.
    Stan's says: "Special anti-freeze agents allow the sealant to be used in environments as cold as -30° F."
    I haven't ridden that cold but never had any issues in sub-freezing temps.

  158. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by FishMan473 View Post
    It weighs more than a 2.5-3.0 mtb tube (without sealant).
    Curious how a 24x2.75 tube with ~1/3 of it's body cut off, weighs more than a tube you mention???

    Obviously, this is garage level choices we're talking about here, no one is making a dime on it or selling their own product over another, I just get to wondering where folks get these ideas from is all...
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  159. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjdog800 View Post
    Stan's says: "Special anti-freeze agents allow the sealant to be used in environments as cold as -30° F."
    I haven't ridden that cold but never had any issues in sub-freezing temps.
    Happily ridden Stans into the sub zero range on many occasions over the years, no issues.....
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tjdog800 View Post
    Stan's says: "Special anti-freeze agents allow the sealant to be used in environments as cold as -30° F."
    I haven't ridden that cold but never had any issues in sub-freezing temps.
    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Happily ridden Stans into the sub zero range on many occasions over the years, no issues.....
    Good to know. Thanks guys.

    Where I live (southwest), sealant drying is a bigger concern. I've been using 50/50 mixture of Stan's and Slime ATV. This seems to last longer than straight Stan's.

  161. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcappy View Post
    I mentioned this in another post a while ago. I was washing the bikes after a ride and I found a very large thorn sticking out of my wife's front Nate. I got the pliers out and pulled it out. A small pin head sized spot of Stan's appeared and that was that. If the tire had a tube in it I would have been fixing it out in the field with the Mosquitos eating me alive.
    Yeah, and how much fun is that?

    jonshonda
    I shouldn't even say anything, but I have yet to deal with flatting in the wild.

    If flats aren't really a concern, would tubeless be worth the trouble? Some say the ride quality and tire profile at lower psi is improved.
    For me it would be. The ability to ride with extremely low pressures while winter riding on marginally groomed trails without pinch flatting is just as important. I've ridden in some very adverse weather that if I had to stop to fix a flat, it might have been life threatening.

  162. #162
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    I have been adding a little cold weather window washing fluid every couple of months or so to my tubeless tires. When i have removed my tire the sealant is nice and wet, when i have not add fluid it starts to dry up and i also have slow leaks. i have riden in below 0 F with 3 or 4 psi with this mix of sealant and washer fluid with no problems. i can not remember if i have rode in same condition with just strait sealant with my tubeless set up.

  163. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katz View Post
    Good to know. Thanks guys.

    Where I live (southwest), sealant drying is a bigger concern. I've been using 50/50 mixture of Stan's and Slime ATV. This seems to last longer than straight Stan's.
    Antifreeze in the form of either ethylene glycol (toxic/poisonous) or propylene glycol (nontoxic) is a major ingredient in most tire sealants. Both Stan's and Slime have propylene glycol in them - but not just for the antifreeze properties - either glycol has a very low vapor pressure, meaning it evaporates very slowly.

    Lot's of folks add windshield washer fluid, but that's not just one thing. Some of it is ammonia based, some is alcohol based, and some is just detergent. It's all formulated to not freeze solid in your vehicle's washer fluid jug, but if you run a latex sealant, ammonia helps the latex stay liquid - until it's coming thru a hole and drying out.

    {edit} You can read thru best-tubeless-brew thread for info. My DIY sealant recipe usually goes for about 12 months in southern NM.
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

    WSS/OSS: Open Source Sealant

  164. #164
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    ^Uh-oh, we got a scientist in the house!

    I'll check out the thread (holy crap, 97 pages ) and try your recipe for the next batch. Thanks for the tip!

  165. #165
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    @wadester I've been keeping away from that thread because it's nice to have a few things still done for me aka. stans but.....
    DIY sealant is it going to save me a few bones over stans?

  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by OFFcourse View Post
    @wadester I've been keeping away from that thread because it's nice to have a few things still done for me aka. stans but.....
    DIY sealant is it going to save me a few bones over stans?
    It is cheaper to make - but you make up bigger batches, so there is more of an investment. It also lasts longer than Stan's - up to 4 times as long, so it's cheaper that way too.

    Pint of mold builder is $10-15, cheapo antifreeze tends to come in gallons, for $5-10, propylene glycol you have to hunt for, $10/pt. Slime is easy chunkulation, I got a gallon for $30 a loong time ago - but I see 24oz for $10. See how it adds up?

    I keep mine in a sealed container, and it's good to the last drop - no wastage, and you do go thru it over time. You will have to buy more materials than you need for one batch, but again - you do go thru it over time.

    I used to use an 80oz glass pickle jar, but my basic recipe is 80oz - so it was hard to get the last bit stirred. Now I have a Rubbermaid Mixermate gallon pitcher with room to shake - but I guess a gallon glass jar would be just as good.
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by exp18 View Post
    I have been adding a little cold weather window washing fluid every couple of months or so to my tubeless tires. When i have removed my tire the sealant is nice and wet, when i have not add fluid it starts to dry up and i also have slow leaks. i have riden in below 0 F with 3 or 4 psi with this mix of sealant and washer fluid with no problems. i can not remember if i have rode in same condition with just strait sealant with my tubeless set up.
    exp18;
    I have seen quite a few of your posts regarding different setups that you have tried. Could you summarize, compare and contrast all of your experiences in one post? I have seen you do split tube glued to the inside of the tire with no sealant needed, have you tried split tube glued to the outside of the tire? Anyway I also see you have used 8 wraps of shrink wrap with no sealant needed, now I see you are using sealant with windshield washer fluid. What is the ultimate setup and why? Thanks for sharing your varied experiences.

  168. #168
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    I could run my tubeless setups with little or no extra sealant in the tire but the purpose of having the sealant in the tire is flat prevention from punctures and sealing the walls of the tire as it breaks down due to riding it at very low pressure during some winter rides.

    I have been on numerous rides this summer with people running tubes where they flatted and I haven't had a problem. The last time was just a couple of weeks ago and I noticed I had goatheads in my tires after another person flatted. I pulled mine out and never had a problem.

  169. #169
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    On my On-One Floaters, I can see the sealant seeping through the sidewalls here and there, though they are holding air pressure (15+) just fine. These tires aren't that much heavier (sometimes lighter) than most 2.5" downhill tires, so I'm not very surprised how thin the sidewalls are.

    Can't speak for other fat tires, but running sealant is mandatory on these tires if you run them tubeless IMO.

  170. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by k.b. View Post
    exp18;
    I have seen quite a few of your posts regarding different setups that you have tried. Could you summarize, compare and contrast all of your experiences in one post? I have seen you do split tube glued to the inside of the tire with no sealant needed, have you tried split tube glued to the outside of the tire? Anyway I also see you have used 8 wraps of shrink wrap with no sealant needed, now I see you are using sealant with windshield washer fluid. What is the ultimate setup and why? Thanks for sharing your varied experiences.
    I would also like to hear what exp18 has to say about his tubeless experiences.

    .....with pictures, too!!! Thanks.

  171. #171
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    I will do a update on the things I have tried probably tomorrow. It’s crazy busy this time of year at work, snow is coming soon!

  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katz View Post
    On my On-One Floaters, I can see the sealant seeping through the sidewalls here and there, though they are holding air pressure (15+) just fine. These tires aren't that much heavier (sometimes lighter) than most 2.5" downhill tires, so I'm not very surprised how thin the sidewalls are.
    Wow downhill tires weight more than 1.5kg **** that!

  173. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by exp18 View Post
    I will do a update on the things I have tried probably tomorrow. It’s crazy busy this time of year at work, snow is coming soon!
    I am going to start my diet tomorrow too. ;-)

  174. #174
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    Tubeless Tuesday.

    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Curious how a 24x2.75 tube with ~1/3 of it's body cut off, weighs more than a tube you mention???

    Obviously, this is garage level choices we're talking about here, no one is making a dime on it or selling their own product over another, I just get to wondering where folks get these ideas from is all...
    That 24" tube plus sealant is heavier than a 26x2.6" tube without sealant.
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  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by FishMan473 View Post
    That 24" tube plus sealant is heavier than a 26x2.6" tube without sealant.
    Foul! I've reduced (but not by much) the weight of my wheelset by removing the lightweight Q-Tubes I originally used and replacing them with split and trimmed 24" Q-Tubes and 2 scoops of Stan's. And I get flat protection to boot!

  176. #176
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    Relax man. For one, I'd be interested in some numbers if you have indeed lost some weight on your wheels with the split tube method.

    However, there are a lot of nits we can pick here. On the one hand, I don't think the Q-Tubes UL 26x2.4-2.7" are actually durable enough for regular use on a fat bike. Mine came apart at the seams on me. So for me, the baseline I'm working off of is the more durable Specalized 26x2.3-3.0 tubes that weigh in at 279 grams.

    On the other hand, well I don't know how much a 24" tube that has had some of the rubber cut off weighs, maybe 200 grams? But some of those standard 24" tubes weigh more than the UL 26" tube so maybe its more.

    Also, I figure you need at least 3 scoops of sealant since a fat bike tire has about double the surface area of a standard tire... most people are using 3 scoops, which seems a little suspect to me, but lets use it as a baseline at 90 grams.

    Then add in some foam to allow the tire to air up (I have almost a 1/2" gap with my Rolling Dayrlls and Escalators, no way that my combination would air up without filling the gap a bit). Put it together, and its probably roughly the same. Again, I'd like some numbers on what you did though, I'm just estimating here. In particular, I'd like to know what that split tube weighs once you cut it down, and if you're using an ultra light model or a standard model (will a lightweight 24" tube even work?)

    For me, the flat protection is a non-issue since I ride 90% of my miles on snow and the only flats I have gotten so far were from the tubes coming apart at the seams. Lower rolling resistance, more float and lighter weight are the issues that matter to me.

    Honestly, unless I can save a reasonable amount of weight the hassle of making it tubeless, maintaining it, and possibly swapping tires with a bunch of sealant in them probably isn't worth it to me... but I'd like to try and see if I can. I'm going to give it a second try with the tape tomorrow. When I pull the tape from the first attempt I'll weigh it with a valve stem to see what it weighs so we can compare.... and hopefully I'll have some positive results to share as well.
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  177. #177
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    I've used the split tube method with HuDu's on holy Rolling Darryls and Escalators on Marge Lites, both without tape or foam. Granted, I use a soapy water and a compressor to initially get the tires to seat, replace the valve, and then slowly hand pump the tires until the beads pop into the seat which usually occurs at about 25psi. Then I immediately reduce it to riding pressure. The tube/bead interface is tight and lightweight tubes work great. I've had them keep aired up several days without sealant. That's why I only use two scoops and have had no issues on two different fatbikes for a year now and have been riding trails all summer long.

    Regarding performance, It's proven that losing the tube does indeed reduce rolling resistance as there is no scrubbing between the tube and tire which is especially true at the lower psi run in fat tires. Also, even at the same weights, it is easier to get a fat tire rolling without the weight of the tube at the extremities of the wheel circumference. The sealant weight doesn't spread to the tire extremities until the wheel gains some speed.

    How significant are the advantages, who knows? But the physics are favorable.

  178. #178
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    Yes k b time to start your diet. I have tried quite a few different way of doing tubeless. My original intent was to run tubeless without the use of sealant. I like the way tubeless rolls and we do not have the puncture problem here in AK. like some places. But I came to the same conclusion as a post I read earlier ( I can’t remember who posted it ) that the tires we use was not designed for tubeless, so there for the tire itself leaks and you need sealant for that if nothing else. I could not find a way that consistently did not need sealant anyway. Also I find that the tires we use very in quality and size, that changes things that work and don’t work.
    I started out trying out the tape and sealant method. I found that my tires would leak down to 3 or 4 psi after a couple of days. I normally run my tires on hard pack about 8 in the rear and 6 in the front and if I am on the road I run 15 on the rear and 10 in front. I know a lot of people thinks that’s more psi than you need but that work for me. But at that pressure you will need to add air about every 4 hrs. or so with the tape method.
    2nd I did the spilt tube method it works great even at the higher pressures, but if you trim the tube it is near impossible to re-use the tube when changing tires. So I did the glue the split tube to the tire method this works but again when you go to re-mount the tire the tube will catch on the bead of the rim and will ether pull the tube away from the tire or you can just not get it out. Either way it will cause it to leak there.
    3rd I did the shrink wrap method with the foam tape applied to the bead of the tire. I first tried the shrink warp without sealant and foam tape. Sometime it worked good and sometime not so good. So I added the foam tape to help with the inconsistences I was having form tire to tire. But as I said earlier to stop the slow leaks I had to use sealant. I am still using this method. I would like to find a method that is a little easier to change tires.
    I have a different method that I have been run on the rear tire for a little while now but it is going to be a little heavier than the shrink wrap method. I am using a tape that is for commercial membrane roofing repairs its expensive about a $100 for a 50ft roll. Its 6” wide and has a vinyl top with a 16th inch thick rubber adhesive. It sealed very well with a couple of scoops of sealant, I have not had to add air in a couple of weeks. If I can change tires without changing the tape I think it will be the best one for me.

  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by exp18 View Post
    Yes k b time to start your diet. I have tried quite a few different way of doing tubeless. My original intent was to run tubeless without the use of sealant. I like the way tubeless rolls and we do not have the puncture problem here in AK. like some places. But I came to the same conclusion as a post I read earlier ( I can’t remember who posted it ) that the tires we use was not designed for tubeless, so there for the tire itself leaks and you need sealant for that if nothing else. I could not find a way that consistently did not need sealant anyway. Also I find that the tires we use very in quality and size, that changes things that work and don’t work.
    I started out trying out the tape and sealant method. I found that my tires would leak down to 3 or 4 psi after a couple of days. I normally run my tires on hard pack about 8 in the rear and 6 in the front and if I am on the road I run 15 on the rear and 10 in front. I know a lot of people thinks that’s more psi than you need but that work for me. But at that pressure you will need to add air about every 4 hrs. or so with the tape method.
    2nd I did the spilt tube method it works great even at the higher pressures, but if you trim the tube it is near impossible to re-use the tube when changing tires. So I did the glue the split tube to the tire method this works but again when you go to re-mount the tire the tube will catch on the bead of the rim and will ether pull the tube away from the tire or you can just not get it out. Either way it will cause it to leak there.
    3rd I did the shrink wrap method with the foam tape applied to the bead of the tire. I first tried the shrink warp without sealant and foam tape. Sometime it worked good and sometime not so good. So I added the foam tape to help with the inconsistences I was having form tire to tire. But as I said earlier to stop the slow leaks I had to use sealant. I am still using this method. I would like to find a method that is a little easier to change tires.
    I have a different method that I have been run on the rear tire for a little while now but it is going to be a little heavier than the shrink wrap method. I am using a tape that is for commercial membrane roofing repairs its expensive about a $100 for a 50ft roll. Its 6” wide and has a vinyl top with a 16th inch thick rubber adhesive. It sealed very well with a couple of scoops of sealant, I have not had to add air in a couple of weeks. If I can change tires without changing the tape I think it will be the best one for me.
    Thanks so much exp18, I feel skinnier just reading your prose! I had backtracked a few of your posts to see you had tried various methods. Your varied experience is way more valuable to me than people with huge opinions and miniscule data (and probably something else that is small too).

    So anyway, my assessment of the situation comes down to this:
    1. Fatbike tubeless is different than other bikes due to the low pressure often used. Lower pressure can cause more friction between the tube and tire, necessitating a tubeless methodology for lower rolling resistance.
    2. Currently available tires and tire manufacturing variations seem to require some sort of fluid to stop leaks thru the sidewalls.
    3. The Saran wrap method seals the rim well, but the interface of the tire and rim needs some moldable, pliant material to prevent leaks at that boundary layer.

    I think I am ready to put my tires on a diet now!

  180. #180
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    Great summary k b you can tell I am not a tech writer in my day job but hope it helps

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    Tubeless Tuesday.

    Anybody know if a 26 X 1.9/2.1 tube will work on a Clownshoe with split tube?

  182. #182
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    A little OT, but if you are running tubes, its an old roadie trick to use talcum powder (baby powder) on your tubes and inner liner of your tire. Get them nice and powdery and it will reduce friction between the tube and the tire casing. Also someone once told me it reduces the incidents of flats, but I'm not sure how.
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  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by racefit View Post
    Anybody know if a 26 X 1.9/2.1 tube will work on a Clownshoe with split tube?
    It will fit loosely, so it's not ideal, but it will *work*.....
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by racefit View Post
    Anybody know if a 26 X 1.9/2.1 tube will work on a Clownshoe with split tube?
    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    It will fit loosely, so it's not ideal, but it will *work*.....
    Always used 24s myself with good results. Never tried a 26.

  185. #185
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    I've tried 29er tubes on a 29er rim and it was really hard to get the tube to sit correctly and to get the tire over the top. The tube kept slipping around, I would stick to a size down.

  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by racefit View Post
    Anybody know if a 26 X 1.9/2.1 tube will work on a Clownshoe with split tube?
    Q-Tube 24 x 2.75 is the way to go there. Nice and tight with plenty of excess to hold on to while working the tire on. Trim or not after, your choice.

  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schott View Post
    I've got lots of useful tips for you, but since you made a completely derogatory comment in your post, I refuse to help you.


    "You're like a Ferrari engine driving a dump truck"
    +1!!

  188. #188
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    Wow sheltered life/country I had to urban dictionary that one to confirm it's meaning!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schott View Post
    I've got lots of useful tips for you, but since you made a completely derogatory comment in your post, I refuse to help you.


    "You're like a Ferrari engine driving a dump truck"
    Congratulations. I already got some knowledgable input on it anyways.

  190. #190
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    Tubeless Tuesday.

    Quote Originally Posted by MiniTrail View Post
    I won't ding him but he deserves it

    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Schott again."
    I had no problem with either.
    Riding Fat and still just as fast as I never was.

  191. #191
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    I realize that sometimes people might come off as arrogant or as if we know everything and I think that many of us don't mean to be that way. There are those of us who do a lot of riding and have come up with methods that work for various things, including tubeless, but often people don't want to listen to those who have the knowledge being asked about. It is sometimes frustrating.

    I've always found Schott to be pretty reasonable and he has some usable knowledge.

  192. #192
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    Thank you mod's. If we delete curse words we certainly should delete racist comments!

  193. #193
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    Re: Tubeless Tuesday.

    Got my front wheel (Husker Du on Rolling Darryl) set up tonight using sill seal and Gorilla Tape. Being used to using Stan's yellow tape on my other bikes, I got the foam and tape installed on Sunday and let it sit with an inflated tube inside to help set the tape. When I continued the process tonight I found the foam had collapsed and I remembered a mention in this thread (?) about that happening between setting it up and changing the tire later. I ripped out the foam and tape, applied new materials, and followed the rest of the instructions. I only had about 5 ounces of Stan's left, so I dumped that in. I hope that's enough, but I need to pick up another bottle anyway. We'll see how long it takes me to get around to the back wheel.

    Thanks for all the info, especially to the fatties who took the time to figure it all out so I could do it in an evening.
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  194. #194
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    Didn't mean to rock the boat. Just standing up for what is right. Back on topic, my tape only tubeless went soft this week while I rode my mariachi, I think it was jealous, as the rides were perfect. Guess I need to ride it more.


    "You're like a Ferrari engine driving a dump truck"

  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by evan, yo! View Post
    ...using sill seal and Gorilla Tape. Being used to using Stan's yellow tape on my other bikes, I got the foam and tape installed on Sunday and let it sit with an inflated tube inside to help set the tape. ...
    Using Gorilla tape, I don't really see a need to put a tube in to compress the seams. Not that it hurts, but I've done it both ways and have taken a lot of them apart later and it doesn't seem necessary if the tape overlaps sufficiently and has been applied with tension.
    It just creates another step.

  196. #196
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    Yeah, I realized that after the first trial. Second time 'round I used the tube to seat the beads at about 25psi then removed it immediately before the foam could compress. I was able to seat the remaining bead with a floor pump.

    I didn't measure the pressure this morning, but there was still plenty of air in it. Before the Stan's there was some air coming out of one of the spoke holes next to the valve. Shaking the wheel sealed it up.

    FWIW, I'm using an old DT Swiss tubeless valve because I had it laying around. I'm a little worried that the rubber foot on the base isn't very large and that tightening it too much may rip through the tape. This may be a non-issue depending on how much the foam compresses under normal use.

  197. #197
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    tape and foam FAIL, part 2

    Well, as you can see in the photo below, my second attempt at foam+tape went a lot smoother than the first, literally.

    Unfortunately the project was another fail. The deal breaker is that the sealant is leaking around the valve stem. Since the ammonia in the Stan's sealant dissolves this closed-cell foam, as soon as any sealant leaks out into the foam, the foam starts breaking down and game over.

    OzzyBMX: how did you seal up your valve hole?

    Another issue is that this foam is too thick and 3-dimensional. Its a pain to install an the tire gets REALLY tight, its hard to fit it on. So maybe this could work if I could find another source of material to fill in the middle of the rim, but other than that I'm dead in the water.

    Last issue is that the tape seems kind of flimsy on the bead hook, and though I think it would work for a few tires installs, I'm thinking of having 2 sets of tires this winter, and I'm guessing that swapping back and forth would create damage that would require re-taping more often than I would like.

    What do people have for suggestions for space fillers that don't dissolve in ammonia? I'm going to need something other than the foam I'm using, even if I go to split tube.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Tubeless Tuesday.-tape.jpg  

    Last edited by FishMan473; 10-16-2013 at 03:37 PM.
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    I used 3 layers of this one. The material seems to be identical to weatherstripping material you find at auto parts stores.

    EPDM foam

    I have no idea how resistant it is to ammonia. It's been a little over two weeks since I did tubeless conversion on my Fatty and there's no noticeable/visible leak thus far (other than from thin spots on the sidewall).

    This foam is adhesive backed. Applying the first layer was tricky, as it's VERY sticky to aluminum and the foam tears easily if you try to peel it off. 2nd and 3rd layers were easy to do, and the foam stays in place as you apply tape over them.

  199. #199
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    I used this stuff: Tubeless Tuesday.-24dcfb3a-1ede-45f8-9b05-47efe88d8499_1000.jpg

    Owens Corning FOAMULAR 1/4 in. x 5-1/2 in. x 50 ft. FoamSealR-2FS at The Home Depot

    And a split tube for the HRD's with HD's. The split tube was the key. I tried different foams and different tapes (both gorilla and the fat blue tape you have). Split tube was really quite easy in comparison. Not sure why you'd still need a different foam if you're doing split tube. If you do split tube, the sealant should never come into contact with your foam, no matter what you're using.
    "There are two kinds of mountain bikers in the world: those who are faster than me, and me."

  200. #200
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    Foam for split tube may still help get the initial seal if the rim profile is too deep to position the bead for best sealing.

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