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  1. #1
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    A true lifetime sealant benifets?

    The latest thread on Lauf forks had my mind going astray...

    If fatbike wheels were balanced to the same drgree as auto wheels, would that not allow whatever (or the lack thereof) suspension system, to function at its intended design much better? Thereby removing one aspect impacting performance?

    It seems to me that fatbike tire and wheel combos are naturally way underbalanced.

    Perhaps if the sealant were of an (oil?) based nature...?

    How speed dependent would it be...?

    It seems to me that all of the sealants on the market try to address punctures, but ignore any balancing improvements to be had.

    Thoughts?
    "Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway" John Wayne

  2. #2
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    You are way over thinking this.
    Latitude 61

  3. #3
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    Balancing improvements? You thinking of spinning the wheels up and adding rim weighting to balance things?

    The sealant pretty evenly disperses around the inside circumference of the tire, at speed. You slow down and it sloshes back to the bottom.
    Increase the viscosity and it just runs back to the bottom slower? Not sure what that helps.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    You are way over thinking this.
    I was considering the opposite

    While all bike tyre/wheel combos are slightly unbalanced it's not really a problem because of their low mass and generally low rotational speed. Occasionally a road cyclist will notice it if they are on a long descent and get to a very high speed, above 50mph or so, but for most, and especially with fat bikes, you aren't getting anywhere near those speeds.

    Sealant, whether water, latex or oil based will just spread evenly around the inner walls of the tyre.

  5. #5
    turtles make me hot
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    Tommysea used to think this way. His fat rims had holes all the way around so they were perfectly balanced and his athletes were able to set land speed records.
    I like turtles

  6. #6
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    Not enough mass to really matter.

    ...or are you using like a gallon in each tire?

    -F
    It's never easier - you just go faster.

  7. #7
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    I used to commute on a regular Mountain bike with Slime tubes. Immediately after my driveway was a hill that generated speeds of 20+. The pooled Slime was very noticeable, as was when it redistributed itself around the entire tire.
    Latitude 61

  8. #8
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    This is a solution looking for a problem.

  9. #9
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    I'm trying to visualize in my mind how tire balance will affect the suspension deign.

    I am unable to visualize why my shock or fork won't properly dampen the ride.

    I am using the extreme example of a tire being way out of balance -does that put enough force to overcome the minimum requirements of a fork to dampen. Can't can't imagine that.

    I've had dried sealant in a tire and could easily feel the bike motion while rolling long on pavement but as far as riding on a rough surface I feel the fork worked as it should.

  10. #10
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    So basically: if sealant didnít seal...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  11. #11
    All Lefty's, all the time Moderator
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    All I can think of, and the Tommisea mention is spot on.
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  12. #12
    Human Test Subject
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    I'm all about 100% balanced.

  13. #13
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    [QUOTE=bob_w Occasionally a road cyclist will notice it if they are on a long descent and get to a very high speed, above 50mph or so, but for most, and especially with fat bikes, you aren't getting anywhere near those speeds.[/QUOTE]

    Interesting to know that it can be felt at least.

    Tragically funny that Tommisea was brought up; his name was flashing through my mind as I was posting...should have stopped right there!

    Have to say that sryanak hit the ball on the first pitch. (low and wide?)
    "Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway" John Wayne

  14. #14
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    Except when we do our winter DH races at the ski resort.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  15. #15
    EAT MORE GRIME
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    4 oz or more liquid sealant in a tire,

    when you approach the usual speeds that balance problems become a factor
    (which is really road speeds 17mph and up)

    ....the liquid -automatically balances the tire-.

    it's just how it works. automatic balancing if you don't have some extreme balance problem like something attached to the wheel or obvious huge defect

    ---

    glycol and beads have been used to balance trailer, truck, and car tires for ages...wet sealant works the same in an mtb tire except it really isn't needed for balance at mtb speeds and varied terrain...
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SADDLE TRAMP View Post
    ...
    1. It seems to me that fatbike tire and wheel combos are naturally way underbalanced.
    2. Perhaps if the sealant were of an (oil?) based nature...?
    3. How speed dependent would it be...?
    4. It seems to me that all of the sealants on the market try to address punctures, but ignore any balancing improvements to be had.
    1. Correct. But is that observable. Is that relevant.

    3. Very speed dependant. If unbalanced and sufficient speed, it increases wear on the bearings too. But I'm not planning on hanging onto any vehicles going down the freeway any time soon.

    2. Irrelevant, provided the sealant stays liquid?

    Related Background

    I use round pellets in my car tires. At low speed it is irrelevant. At high speed they go where needed to dynamically balance the wheel at that speed. Super smooth ride. I forget the theory on why this works. Google.

    Specifically I use plastic airsoft pellets (not biodegradeable), instead of the BBs, steel balls, copper pellets that corrode, degrade or flake, and instead of the purpose-made pellets for sale for this purpose. Some people insist one must degrease, wash & rince their balls first to remove the release agent.

    There are specific mass/quantity for various BBs, purpose-made pellets, etc., recommended based on tire size. This does NOT work for wide ratio tires; google if it can work for yours. Some think a little bit added after balancing is good to fine tune wide ratio tires, but they will NOT replace balancing the wheel, and then you have to open it again to get the pellets in (some pellet sizes fit through the stem if you remove the valve).

    When putting new rubber on, I pre-weigh the correct amount and place into four plastic baggies, which get handed to the tech installing the tires. They don't balance the wheel after install. I don't remember the required mass for my tire/wheel, but it's not significant (definately less than a half sandwich bag).

    4. They don't need to address it. For the amount of balancing needed for the speeds obtainable, given the volume (hence weight) of the recommended amount of sealant we're using, I'd highly expect sealant to have the same or similar behaviour, hence the same function and benefit as the various pellets/bbs/balls in vehicle tires.

    So anyone using sealant (provided it hasn't solidified), is likely to not have or not notice an unblance problem as it has been solved or is minimized.

    Anyone experiencing an issue should check that their rubber is properly seated. If it persists at speed, check that their hub was correctly installed into the rim so it is in fact at the centre. If it still persists, then they could try using sealant, or more sealant.
    Crazy on this ship of fools...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    I used to commute on a regular Mountain bike with Slime tubes. Immediately after my driveway was a hill that generated speeds of 20+. The pooled Slime was very noticeable, as was when it redistributed itself around the entire tire.
    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    4 oz or more liquid sealant in a tire,

    when you approach the usual speeds that balance problems become a factor
    (which is really road speeds 17mph and up)

    ....the liquid -automatically balances the tire-.

    it's just how it works. automatic balancing if you don't have some extreme balance problem like something attached to the wheel or obvious huge defect

    ---

    glycol and beads have been used to balance trailer, truck, and car tires for ages...wet sealant works the same in an mtb tire except it really isn't needed for balance at mtb speeds and varied terrain...

    How do the beads work? My initial guess is that the weight of the beads spreads evenly throughout the whole tire, and when that happens, any imbalance in weight is really just lessened due to the fact that there is added weight that is distributed throughout the whole tire. This would make the imbalance less of a factor overall. If this is the case and it just adds weight to the tire, it's a non-starter for the cycling world. I'd take an imbalance over a heavier wheel any day.

    Relating this to the slime argument above, I question if that's what was actually felt. As the speed of the wheel increased, centrifugal force would distribute the liquid evenly throughout the tire, essentially keeping it as a thin film. It definitely wouldn't be pooling up at any reasonable speed.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctxcrossx View Post
    How do the beads work? My initial guess is that the weight of the beads spreads evenly throughout the whole tire..

    ... As the speed of the wheel increased, centrifugal force would distribute the liquid evenly throughout the tire, essentially keeping it as a thin film...
    Well, you don't have to guess. Or assume. You can google such beads/bb/balls and get the explanation on what happens with a movable mass inside a tire. Although their market is greatly reduced due to the popularity of wide tires, I assume they're still around for trucks and those of us with regular tires.

    (I remember now why beads don't work for wide tires. Wide tire wheels need to be (significantly?) balanced from side to side. To do that includes the regular balancing. Which is why beads can only provide a benefit of fine tuning, and it is debated if that can work or is useful.)

    I can't remember why it works, but I've been using the airsoft pellets since the mid '90s. My personal experience, it doesn't lessen an imbalance, there is no perceived imbalance. Used regularly up to 75 mph, once at 95 mph on a straight highway marked at that limit for a number of hours on a res in the States, and once up to 121 mph for under five minutes ... um ... elsewhere.

    And I'm not suggesting we use beads in bike tires. It's showing that a movable mass is used to dynamically balance an imbalance in a wheel at speed. Which is great to have dynamic balancing if an imbalance can change over time. Then we have liquid sealant in the bike world: a movable mass.
    Crazy on this ship of fools...

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctxcrossx View Post

    Relating this to the slime argument above, I question if that's what was actually felt. As the speed of the wheel increased, centrifugal force would distribute the liquid evenly throughout the tire, essentially keeping it as a thin film. It definitely wouldn't be pooling up at any reasonable speed.
    What else would it be? It was a very noticeable imbalance. It only happened with the slime tubes. It happened for about 20 seconds and then went away. I rode numerous bikes, and wheel sets/tires on that same route no others did it. That bike didn't do it with non slime tubes. I think the slime was thick enough that it took quite a few seconds to distribute itself around the tire.
    Latitude 61

  20. #20
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    After the work described in this thread:

    https://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/an...e-1091098.html

    I have a VERY noticeable out-of-balance rear tire. Thankfully, it's not noticeable on the trail due to all the other stuff going on, but when I hit a section of pavement or smoother gravel road, I definitely notice it. It does cause some minimal suspension movement, but I don't think it's really enough to affect much. It's a minor annoyance in the grand scheme.

    For most fatbikes, I think imperfect/wobbly casings are more noticeable than balance issues.

    There IS a wheel balancing product on the market for road bikes (particularly those with deep cross section aero wheels that require long valve stems, which are primarily what cause the balance issues at speed).

    https://silca.cc/products/speedbalan...-magnet-system

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    What else would it be? It was a very noticeable imbalance. It only happened with the slime tubes. It happened for about 20 seconds and then went away. I rode numerous bikes, and wheel sets/tires on that same route no others did it. That bike didn't do it with non slime tubes. I think the slime was thick enough that it took quite a few seconds to distribute itself around the tire.
    I think that's exactly what it was. Slime is a little thicker than most sealants, and after sitting for a while and then going right to a high speed, it took a while for it to distribute around the tube.

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