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  1. #1
    All fat, all the time.
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    Surly E bike...

    It's not fat I know, but thought you guys would find it interesting.

    https://reviews.mtbr.com/surly-big-e...de-impressions

    Wow, some uptight folks around here.

    Mods can you just delete this?
    Last edited by Shark; 03-18-2019 at 10:09 AM.

  2. #2
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    They've been spending some money promoting it too.

    https://www.treehugger.com/bikes/sur...-eat-cars.html

    The author's article "Cycling is the happiest form of transport" uses a fat bike photo.
    https://www.treehugger.com/bikes/cyc...transport.html
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  3. #3
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    Only way i would have an e bike would be a hauler to replace the truck.

    Commuting if your training is just “garbage miles” anyways. Nice to fly to work or the store and not be a sweaty mess.


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    Fatbike, XC bike, Gravel Bike....

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    Crazy on this ship of fools...

  5. #5
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    If my work didn't require me to travel a lot, (I don't have a local office) it would be nice to be able to commute by bike.

  6. #6
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    I am 15 miles from work, but only by high-speed, busy roads. Not worth the risk at 7 AM. The other issue is the price-for $5K you can get a nearly new KLR 650 that gets 50-60 MPG easily and will keep up with traffic. One good thing is that this further promotes where e-bikes should be used, and not on the trails.
    "Wait- I am confused" - SDMTB'er

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuxdiesel View Post
    ... and not on the trails.
    As partially disabled, I need e-bike to be able to get out on many trails, and it's essential on all trails in order to be able to self-rescue. I see two serious things wrong with e-bikes on trails, and both are user related:
    • idiots hitting a hand throttle and spinning the tires and digging the trail up - and it seems that near every promotional video with an e-bike on a trail shows them doing exactly that as a selling feature..., and
    • e-bikes that aren't street legal e-bikes as they're overpowered, typically with high rpm high-noisy RC motors, disturbing everything as they scream along, effectively at speeds of an electric motorcycle, not an e-bike.
    Crazy on this ship of fools...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuxdiesel View Post
    One good thing is that this further promotes where e-bikes should be used, and not on the trails.
    Yup. If you can't ride a 25-30lbs mountain bike on the trails than you shouldn't be heading out with a 50lbs+ moped that can fail and strand you....maybe pin you under it if you crash.

    I can't climb the steep rock faces I see when I am out and about. My first thought isn't to install bolts and use an electric winch to get up them so I can "e-climb" along side folks that can do it with their hands and feet.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Yup. If you can't ride a 25-30lbs mountain bike on the trails than you shouldn't be heading out with a 50lbs+ moped that can fail and strand you....maybe pin you under it if you crash.

    I can't climb the steep rock faces I see when I am out and about. My first thought isn't to install bolts and use an electric winch to get up them so I can "e-climb" along side folks that can do it with their hands and feet.
    Now that we know you're not a doctor...
    Capabilities vary. You've made a lot of assumptions.
    (In my case, I can get myself back out. It would be a very very slow walk-of-shame, and I'd be out of commission for weeks, possibly months. With an appropriate quality e-bike setup, I'm prepared to take that risk. My choice. You should ask yourself why you think that choice should be yours...)

    Do you really believe having some power-assist e-bike is a parallel to e-climb up a rock face?
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canoe View Post
    Now that we know you're not a doctor...
    Capabilities vary. You've made a lot of assumptions.
    (In my case, I can get myself back out. It would be a very very slow walk-of-shame, and I'd be out of commission for weeks, possibly months. With an appropriate quality e-bike setup, I'm prepared to take that risk. My choice. You should ask yourself why you think that choice should be yours...)

    Do you really believe having some power-assist e-bike is a parallel to e-climb up a rock face?
    Well, taxes and public resources are used to rescue you if needed, so while I'm all for free choice and allowing people to be stupid, I don't agree that e-bikes should provide a blanket "solution" to getting incapable people into the wilderness. It's irresponsible at best.

    Also, this isn't a fat bike, so it shouldn't be in the fat bike forum. It's an e-bike, so it should be in the e-bike forum.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canoe View Post

    Do you really believe having some power-assist e-bike is a parallel to e-climb up a rock face?
    I really wonder what "power-assist" means

    Do you happen to know ?
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Well, taxes and public resources are used to rescue you if needed, so while I'm all for free choice and allowing people to be stupid, I don't agree that e-bikes should provide a blanket "solution" to getting incapable people into the wilderness. It's irresponsible at best.

    Also, this isn't a fat bike, so it shouldn't be in the fat bike forum. It's an e-bike, so it should be in the e-bike forum.
    I'm no more likely to need a rescue than any one else out the trails I ride. If you'd read, you'd see that I can do the walk-of-shame, etc.. And you'd see the reminder that capabilities vary. Perhaps I shouldn't assume your reading comprehension is good.

    Taxes?
    I seem to recall reading a bunch of news articles that detail the fees people have to reimburse for their rescues.
    Crazy on this ship of fools...

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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    I really wonder what "power-assist" means
    Do you happen to know ?
    In short, it means you provide human power, and with e-bike, electric power provides some power. There are a number of ways that is achieved, some good, some not so good, some hilarious, and some - like manual throttles - are open to easy abuse of trails, as explained in my post above.

    That abuse is a far larger issue for e-bike use on trails, and one I don't see a solution to.

    Even if well-defined limits are made, legesliated or whatever, enforcement would be expensive. And still that abuse would occur and the damage occur.

    (Google to see the various assist methods if you're curious.)
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canoe View Post
    Taxes?
    I seem to recall reading a bunch of news articles that detail the fees people have to reimburse for their rescues.
    I can only speak to my part of Canada, but rescues are at public expense. The rescued party faces zero costs.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I can only speak to my part of Canada, but rescues are at public expense. The rescued party faces zero costs.
    That varies. It depends on where you are rescued from, and who does the rescuing. People report that in time, bills often arrive from ambulance, fire and forestry. It seems to depend on if local resources handle it or if it needs a true SAR response. In a national park, usually the park and resources called has to eat it. More and more fuss against that when someone goes off track/trails/paths or skis out of bounds. Search off trails and rescue off trails is much more difficult. Retreiving someone on a trail is usually straightforward, provided they're not way out or climbing. I know I never got paid for my work, on boat, foot or air. I bought my own ropes & gear, but the boats and planes belonged to others. But that was all out west. Back east might be different.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canoe View Post
    In short, it means you provide human power, and with e-bike, electric power provides some power.
    OK , then , what's the difference between this and an electric winch that would help you climb a rock face ?
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    OK , then , what's the difference between this and an electric winch that would help you climb a rock face ?
    Think about it.
    I won't wait.
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  18. #18
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    Insults are an easy way to make yourself feel smarter, but rarely look that way to other people. Right canoe?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Insults are an easy way to make yourself feel smarter, but rarely look that way to other people. Right canoe?
    o.k.
    I'll bite.
    What do you feel was an insult?
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  20. #20
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    Pitty that a e-cargo bike thread devolves into a junior high battle of who can be more righteous.

    I think I just won!

    Now I'm embarassed for participating. Sorry.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canoe View Post
    o.k.
    I'll bite.
    What do you feel was an insult?
    Well, you questioned my reading comprehension rather than actually addressing the issues in a broader sense than your limited understanding allows. It's cool, though. At least that post made more grammatical sense than the drivel you typed in the neg rep you sent me.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Well, you questioned my reading comprehension rather than actually addressing the issues in a broader sense than your limited understanding allows. It's cool, though. At least that post made more grammatical sense than the drivel you typed in the neg rep you sent me.
    Your 'broader' issue missed the points that capabilities vary and in making assumptions. If you understood those, you'd understand that it's on an individual basis. And you've missed them again. Go back and reread.
    Sorry you didn't understand what I sent in response to the neg rep you sent me.
    Crazy on this ship of fools...

  23. #23
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    E-bike hate.....I don't get it.

    29'ers suck though....

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by KThaxton View Post
    E-bike hate.....I don't get it.
    29'ers suck though....
    Knee jerk E-bike hate is stupid. Too many make ill-reasoned or ridiculous posts.

    BUT, and it's a very BIG but.
    We need to keep an eye on e-bike use on trails. As we use a trail, we have somewhat of a stewardship responsibility to the trail. This goes beyond respect for those that created/maintain the trail and the land-owner that lets us be there, but also to the environment it runs through. Some feel this more than others. As people have seen, those that don't know or those that don't care, can abuse and damage a trail.

    I don't have first-hand evidence or experience of an e-bike damaging a trail, but I have seen a number of videos of that, either on a trail or in advertisements where they seem to revel is handling the bike in a manner that spins the rear wheel digging up the ground. The potential for a lot of damage seems huge. Where some idiot doing this with a mountain bike will at least be limited to their getting tired, an e-bike can do this faster and for longer. And worse, there's the electrified bicycles with super powerful motors that are effectively light-framed electric motorcycles, going 'but I'm just an e-bike', while powering around like a dirt-bike. There certainly seems to be no shortage of idiots, not knowing or not caring.

    But it's not just the potential damage to a trail and the increased work maintainers would have to do. It's the consequences of that damage. At what point will a land-owner (of whatever type or scale), says this damage is enough, and starts banning things, or has had enough and closes the trail for all use. Be it to allow the environment to recover from the direct bike damage, or from any consequential damage (i.e., erosion, and so on). Or perhaps the land-owner decides to close all trails on their property.

    So we need to keep an eye on what's happening.
    "E" is coming. It needs to be responsible. I can't see any technical solution that would be enforceable or work. It looks like it would depend on each individual on the trail being responsible. Good luck.

    So if you ride fat on trails, you need to keep a bit of attention on it.
    (e-bike is already here, and spreading)
    Like the e-MTB race at Sea Otter.
    Or Surly putting out an e-bike.
    Things that make you go hmmmm

    Interestingly, in Europe they don't seem to have this issue often. Those riding trails seem to respect the trails more. And respect other modes of transportation sharing the trails. Most jurisdictions there also only allow e-bikes with pedal-assist - no thumb/grip throttles.
    Crazy on this ship of fools...

  25. #25
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    Feel free to throw me off this forum, but as an original member of the 30 of the group who signed up to get this forum page going i find it hilarious to find Americans complaining about e Bikes when you live in a country who drive gas guzzling V8 engine cars and electric sucking Vegas type cities
    Though you win on using paper shopping bags!

    Ebikes in Europe are indeed restricted to 250w motors and no throttles,
    Whats not to like about getting folk cycling on and offroad on ebikes that they would struggle otherwise?
    That Surly rig does not look like a bike that folk will shred on trails but will use as a workhorse instead of a car...
    plan it...build it....ride it...love it....
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by coastkid71 View Post
    ... you live in a country who drive gas guzzling V8 engine cars and electric sucking Vegas type cities ...
    Know what you mean. But there's a wide range of people (values, beliefs) in the States. It's a big place.

    Nevada - one U.S. state - has an area of 110,622 square miles (286,367 km2). To get 110,603 square miles (286,352 km2) you need to add the areas of:
    • Netherlands,
    • Belgium,
    • Luxemburg,
    • Denmark,
    • Austria,
    • Switzerland,
    • add Denmark a second time,
    • and throw in Malta & Guernsey.

    From pop stats six to eight years old. Nevada's population is 2.7 million people. The above list yields 55 million people.
    That's one state.


    Quote Originally Posted by coastkid71 View Post
    ... Ebikes in Europe are indeed restricted to 250w motors and no throttles, ...
    Understand that some "street-legal" e-bikes here are 750 watts.

    And the not street-legal ones can be 1,500, to 3,000 watts, some more. 60 kph is common. 100 kph happens. This is on bicycle frames.
    Crazy on this ship of fools...

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traktor View Post
    Pitty that a e-cargo bike thread devolves into a junior high battle of who can be more righteous.

    I think I just won!

    Now I'm embarassed for participating. Sorry.
    Exactly.
    I figured with a lot of guys around here that like surly and like oddball bikes, it would fit in fine.

    Some feel the need to argue over everything.
    Go ride a freaking bike people.

  28. #28
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    I don't hate e-bikes but I hate that it's 2019 and there's not a thru axle cargo bike with a low BB.
    You change your own flats? Support your LBS and pay them to instead.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volsung View Post
    I don't hate e-bikes but I hate that it's 2019 and there's not a thru axle cargo bike with a low BB.
    oh oh
    Now the s*** will hit the fan...
    Crazy on this ship of fools...

  30. #30
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    regarding E-bikes, they are not my cup of tea. I like the challenge of trying to get to the top of the hill, and the fun reward of bombing back down. But, I have a garage full of motorcycles, so on the days i just want to "roost", i can do that too...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shark View Post
    Some feel the need to argue over everything.
    YOU COULD NOT BE MORE WRONG!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shark View Post
    Go ride a freaking bike people.

  31. #31
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    Surly E bike...

    Quote Originally Posted by deuxdiesel View Post
    One good thing is that this further promotes where e-bikes should be used, and not on the trails.
    This^^

    Agreed.


    (Because this thread clearly needed my opinion to settle the matter)
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  32. #32
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    I'm big on e-MTB on trails, IF and only if, it can be done responsibly so it doesn't ruin it for everybody. How to do that, other than counting on individuals being responsible? I haven't a clue.

    (or go ride a bike, until your trail is closed...)
    Crazy on this ship of fools...

  33. #33
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    What coastkid71 said.

    The eBike hater group finally just found something bigger to worry about than their micro penises.

    Canoe, keep paddling. I pushed all the same ideas as you for a long time, now I simply accept that minds are never open when fists are clenched, and chuckle at the people who tell me that the BionX equipped Moonlander I have (and use infrequently) is going to trash trails. That tire has never broken free except when I hit the brakes too hard...

    As for the eSurly? I expected more from them than a warmed over prebaked idea. So much for Surly being an innovator and limit pusher.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  34. #34
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    " the BionX equipped Moonlander" Nice! I have one too!
    You're the only other I've heard of that has one. Got mine in 2014
    Northern NJ

  35. #35
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    Personaly , I don't hate eBikes , as a replacement for cars , it can be an elegant solution for traffic problems.
    (And pollution if your electricity isn't made from coal or nuclear)

    I see a lot of electrified stuff around elderly centers.
    When I'll be too old to walk , I'll probably have an electric wheelchair too.
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaleidopete View Post
    " the BionX equipped Moonlander" Nice! I have one too!
    You're the only other I've heard of that has one. Got mine in 2014
    Shame about BionX, but honestly speaking, I've never dealt with a company run more incompetently, than that one, so I guess it's not too surprising they went belly up.

    They actually sent me a system, that I was sure I paid for at time of purchase (hence not paying more attention to detail). They never reached out to me in over a year. Only reason I find out was I ordered another, and they told me I had a rather significant balance due before they'd ship.

    I was more careful after that.

    But when they went under, the Vulture Capital firm that bought them, kept insisting I owed them even more money. I proved them wrong, but yeah, their accounting was just abysmal.

    Great system though!
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

    - FrostyStruthers



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  37. #37
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    Crazy on this ship of fools...

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canoe View Post
    Another one's here...
    Another Fatbike ?
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  39. #39
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    e-MTB
    click link
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  40. #40
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    Glad you got my sarcasm once again
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    Glad you got my sarcasm once again
    Completely missed...
    Crazy on this ship of fools...

  42. #42
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    I thought this is a fatbike form not a moped form, I guess I must have clicked on the wrong form. My Bad

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by exp18 View Post
    I thought this is a fatbike form not a moped form, I guess I must have clicked on the wrong form. My Bad
    lol
    Some of the crap ones even look and ride like mopeds.

    Well, people can imitate the behaviour of the ostrich characterture and keep their head buried in the sand. Or they can keep an eye half-open on the evolution and adoption of new technologies, the abuse of which could threaten your trails if used irresponsibly...
    You may one day find yourself in the position of being able to provide valuable information that guides responsible adoption, or at least contributes to it being done less stupidly. Or not.

    Forums are a good/reasonable source. Apparently even their ads and event reports. So it's easy to keep an eye open by clicking on a thread where the title includes something like "E bike". (or e-MTB)

    So thanks for clicking and keeping an eye out.
    Crazy on this ship of fools...

  44. #44
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    Yup, that electric motor on a bicycle thing is some new technologies right there, we're going to start a evolution with this, we just need a hip marketing name, moped no, I got it! ebike Yes sir Ebike and we will tell everybody its not really a motor. Yeah, so they can poach any trail they want because its not really a motor right.
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  45. #45
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    This is like when suspension forks came out. It may be a bit beyond a lot of you kids memories, but we used to ride fully rigid bikes. Then someone started bolting suspension on to them, and the comparison posturing at urinals or locker rooms, hasn't stopped since.

    "Erhmagerd, they aren't riding exactly like I do with my cool friends, they're cheating, that extra speed the suspension gives them is surely going to trash the trails and have them running over unsuspecting grandmothers...."

    Wanna do some good? Shine a bright light on all the turd nuggets selling 5000W systems on line and shut them down. They, actually do all the scary stuff the haters claim "all" eBikes do. While you're at it in full social injustice mode, take down coal rollers, fentanyl dealers, catholic priests who can't keep it in their pants, and every other social ill of our times.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  46. #46
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    ^ What he said.
    I bought one of the first sus forks in my area (back in the day). I put a Clark unicrown on my Shogun mtb. Radical, man, radical.

  47. #47
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    Why is this thread still in this forum? It should be moved to the e-bike or Surly forum. That's where it belongs, and it would have prevented most of the arguing.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Why is this thread still in this forum? It should be moved to the e-bike or Surly forum. That's where it belongs, and it would have prevented most of the arguing.
    Likely because:
    • It involves Surly, who has had some little bit of involvement with Fat Bikes? So it's interesting to see what Surly is up to.
    • Various people have hoped for cargo Fat Bike choices. Surly might be one we could expect such from. But instead we got a cargo e-bike...
    • It lets Fat Bike riders see some things that are happening with e-bike/e-MTB. Any of which could have a future impact on their trail riding or even access, so it's a good idea to keep an eye open.
    • It's reminded us of the grave & pressing issue of "there's not a thru axle cargo bike with a low BB."

    You don't have to click on the thread...
    Crazy on this ship of fools...

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    This is like when suspension forks came out. It may be a bit beyond a lot of you kids memories, but we used to ride fully rigid bikes. Then someone started bolting suspension on to them, and the comparison posturing at urinals or locker rooms, hasn't stopped since.

    "Erhmagerd, they aren't riding exactly like I do with my cool friends, they're cheating, that extra speed the suspension gives them is surely going to trash the trails and have them running over unsuspecting grandmothers...."

    Wanna do some good? Shine a bright light on all the turd nuggets selling 5000W systems on line and shut them down. They, actually do all the scary stuff the haters claim "all" eBikes do. While you're at it in full social injustice mode, take down coal rollers, fentanyl dealers, catholic priests who can't keep it in their pants, and every other social ill of our times.

    Interesting fact: Catholic priests are not more likely to be sex offenders than other clergy, or even men in general. Surely there are other religions and their members that currently engage in problematic activity at a rate higher than both their peers, or the general public. Side note: I am not Catholic, or religious at all.

    Other than that, you seem spot on with the ebike stuff. Side note: I do not ride an ebike.
    it's a challenge some of us are ultimately worthy of.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canoe View Post
    [*]It lets Fat Bike riders see some things that are happening with e-bike/e-MTB. Any of which could have a future impact on their trail riding or even access, so it's a good idea to keep an eye open.
    The day I'll start to think about having a motor on my Fatbike , I'll buy a snowmobile.


    Oh , and let's start to talk about religion , politics and fire arm , maybe then , that thread is gonna get moved to the right forum.
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    ... to trash the trails and have them running over unsuspecting grandmothers...."
    GET OFF MY TRAIL GRANDMA!!!! I got trash to throw about!
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    ... Oh , and let's start to talk about religion , politics and fire arm , maybe then , that thread is gonna get moved to the right forum.
    Or win the award for the most drift...

    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    The day I'll start to think about having a motor on my Fatbike , I'll buy a snowmobile. ...
    That's great for you. Your choice. But would you be able to advocate for sanity by educating those that make the decisions on why it would be a bad idea for something like (my biggest e-MTB fear):

    Someone at a nature tourist destination follows the over-proven world-wide $ model of renting out equipment to any tourist, and buys a herd of e-MTBs (or comfy cruiser e-bikes - gotta have something grandma & grandpa will feel safe to ride) and sets up near some trails. And the tourists or mom, pop, kids and grandma come along and know this must be safe because they're renting them out and they gave them helmets so they're safe now, right? Then they're sent out on trails, including trails that take skill, into the mix of competent riders, and on something that can move them along at 20 mph.

    Poorly reasoned or hate comments would just detract from legitimate arguments and distract those that would make the decisions, or worse, discredit the legitimate arguments. While it is obvious to experienced riders (and novices soon find out ), those with the experience need to be able to illustrate and educate why people of that skill/experience level on those trails, and on those trails at those speeds, are not only going to ruin the trail experience for competent riders, but it is a recipe for disaster. This may include pointing out the loss of $ from driving competent riders away to other destinations, the costs/risks/liability of more injuries & more severe injuries due to speed, and foreseable consequences liability.

    There are some obvious points that could be developed for a trial program (trial - don't let them lock it in, and then have to work to 'take it away' when something goes bad) for limited adoption of e-bike/e-MTB on a portion of trails at a site, to both limit and control that adoption, but fortunately it's too soon to need to do that. At least I think it's too soon to need that. It may be just around the corner.
    Last edited by Canoe; 03-15-2019 at 03:28 PM.
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  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canoe View Post
    Or win the award for the most drift...
    Posting about a motorcycle on a Fatbike forum is already a number one place as far as drifting goes .... right from the start.


    I don't see people talking about Yamaha Motocross on a Drum forum.
    (Yamaha sells both Drums and Motocross in case you don't know)





    And I really don't understand why mods don't move this to the right sub forum.
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    Posting about a motorcycle on a Fatbike forum is already a number one place as far as drifting goes .... right from the start.

    And I don't feel the need to educate people on motorcycles.
    But would you be willing to not be a mule to advocate for a balance for safety on your trails?

    ~edit

    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    ... And I really don't understand why mods don't move this to the right sub forum.
    No. No you don't understand.

    p.s.
    > (Yamaha sells both Drums and Motocross in case you don't know)
    I have a Yamaha CP-80 if that helps you.
    Crazy on this ship of fools...

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canoe View Post
    But would you be willing to not be a mule to advocate for a balance for safety on your trails?
    I do avocate : I advice people to avoid using motorcycles on MTB trails

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoe View Post
    p.s.
    > (Yamaha sells both Drums and Motocross in case you don't know)
    I have a Yamaha CP-80 if that helps you.
    Do you discuss Motocross on a Keyboard forum ?

    If no is your answer , then why discussing a motorcycle on a Fatbike forum ?
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    I do avocate : I advice people to avoid using motorcycles on MTB trails
    Great start!

    But remember,
    Poorly reasoned or hate comments would just detract from legitimate arguments and distract those that would make the decisions, or worse, discredit the legitimate arguments.
    Your getting into word origins and calling a cargo e-bike a motorcycle doesn't make it a motorcycle. This is just a forum, so it doesn't matter; it won't win or lose trails. If you had to advocate for balance and safety, I'm sure you could do better.
    Crazy on this ship of fools...

  57. #57
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    Wow, this discussion is really unfair to me. In a just world, I wouldn't have to be subjected to discussions that deviate from the prescribed category. Also, production of motor assisted bicycles should stop until I am satisfied that no harm would come from them. Just between you and me, thats never.

    I sometimes feel that there's not enough appreciation for the work I do to maintain order in our crazy world.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traktor View Post
    ... In a just world, I wouldn't have to be subjected to discussions that deviate from the prescribed category. ...
    lol

    If there's enough snowflakes, then there's enough snow to ride on?

    Although with fat tires, you could probably ride over a snowflake with a roving herd of Fat Bikes without doing much harm.
    Crazy on this ship of fools...

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canoe View Post
    Your getting into word origins and calling a cargo e-bike a motorcycle doesn't make it a motorcycle.
    A MOTOR on a bi-CYCLE is still a novelty in the MTB world , laws will get passed , public will develop opinions , give it time. Until then , we do have to advocate people.


    Quote Originally Posted by Canoe View Post
    This is just a forum, so it doesn't matter; it won't win or lose trails. If you had to advocate for balance and safety, I'm sure you could do better.
    Only doing my part the best I can.
    I'm sure you will convince a lot of people over on motorcycle forums , but here , it is a Fatbike sub forum , on a MTB forum.

    These are human powered vehicles.

    The fact that they created a motorcycle sub-forum here is a mystery to me....probably due to the $$$ wich they get from publicity.
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    ...
    These are human powered vehicles.
    The fact that they created a motorcycle sub-forum here is a mystery to me....probably due to the $$$ wich they get from publicity.
    They're going to get adopted. Keyword is "assist". As you said, 'give it time'. What we can try to have input on, is where and how.

    As to why, keep working at it, you'll figure it out. Everything you need to do so is already posted in the thread. I don't think you'll be happy, but you'll figure it out.

    The chance that they've noticed this tiny thread is pretty slim. But in theory, I'm sure they're happy that you keep coming back to the thread, clicking, posting and putting it back near the top.
    Crazy on this ship of fools...

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canoe View Post

    As to why, keep working at it, you'll figure it out. Everything you need to do so is already posted in the thread. I don't think you'll be happy, but you'll figure it out.
    It has been figured out a long time ago , in the 19th century , when combustion and electric motorized vehicles first appear.
    Eventually , laws got passed.

    I really don't get why it is so hard to understand what a motor is.
    Last edited by fokof; 03-17-2019 at 03:46 PM.
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    ...
    People figured it out eventually and laws got passed.

    I really don't understand what is so hard to understand what a motor is.
    Like them, you'll figure it out eventually. The laws, rules, etc., defined what the various terms meant, like motorcycle. Trying to reinvent the term won't fly. Perhaps there's a disjoint if English isn't your first language.

    The diagram may help (but no fat bikes...), and you'll have to go back and read the posts in this thread while you contemplate the diagram. Everything you need to figure it out is in this thread. I can't help you anymore with this. You have to do it.

    Surly E bike...-motor-human-hybrid.jpg
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  63. #63
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    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  64. #64
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    To claim that an eBike is not “motorized” because you have to also pedal is like claiming that a Gin & Tonic is not “alcoholic” because it has tonic water.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  65. #65
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    Since this isn't even a fatbike, I don't understand why this thread hasn't been moved yet. E-bike forum, cargo bike forum, Commuter forum, Surly manufacturing forum - any of those would be a better place for it.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    To claim that an eBike is not “motorized” because you have to also pedal is like claiming that a Gin & Tonic is not “alcoholic” because it has tonic water.
    Forgive me. I missed where someone claimed that e-Bikes are not motorized. Can you point that out to me?
    Crazy on this ship of fools...

  67. #67
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    "To claim that an eBike is not a Motorcycle because you have to also pedal is like claiming that a Gin & Tonic is not “alcoholic” because it has tonic water."

    There you go.
    With a little modification so you can better understand.
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  68. #68
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    Can a mod please delete this?

    Obviously it's just too much for some to grasp lol

  69. #69
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    I’d rather get a one wheel and use a backpack and my hands to carry things. 😄

  70. #70
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    They grow...

    Wing Bikes - Freedom Fatty
    500 W
    top 20 mph

    $1,695, Early Bird Price $1295

    https://www.wingbikes.com/freedom-fatty

    Surly E bike...-wing-bikes-freedom-fatty-500-w.jpg
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  71. #71
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    I think I saw 3 of those on a truck today driving through Colorado.

  72. #72
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    Only 10 more days.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  73. #73
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    Another electric fat.

    RadMini Step Thru

    20" x 4"
    folding stepthrough
    750 w, 48 v, 14 ah
    20 mph
    five gears plus a granny


    Surly E bike...-rad-power-bikes-radmini-step-thru-electric-bike-1.jpg

    Surly E bike...-2019-radmini-folded-schematic.png
    Crazy on this ship of fools...

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canoe View Post
    Another electric fat.

    RadMini Step Thru

    20" x 4"
    folding stepthrough
    750 w, 48 v, 14 ah
    20 mph
    five gears plus a granny
    Apparently "pedal assist mode or the throttle mode".
    Also apparently, to be street legal in some places (NYC?), the throttle must be removed.

    And, another one!

    igo fat folding

    20” x 4”
    500 W, 48 V, 13 Ah
    Shimano Altus 8 speed derailleur

    https://igoelectric.com/products/fat...ectric-fatbike


    Surly E bike...-fat_fold_black-side-2018_1024x1024_crop_center.jpg
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  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by exp18 View Post
    I thought this is a fatbike form not a moped form, I guess I must have clicked on the wrong form. My Bad
    Quote Originally Posted by Canoe View Post
    lol
    Some of the crap ones even look and ride like mopeds.

    Well, people can imitate the behaviour of the ostrich characterture and keep their head buried in the sand. Or they can keep an eye half-open on the evolution and adoption of new technologies, the abuse of which could threaten your trails if used irresponsibly...
    You may one day find yourself in the position of being able to provide valuable information that guides responsible adoption, or at least contributes to it being done less stupidly. Or not.

    Forums are a good/reasonable source. Apparently even their ads and event reports. So it's easy to keep an eye open by clicking on a thread where the title includes something like "E bike". (or e-MTB)

    So thanks for clicking and keeping an eye out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Canoe View Post
    Likely because:
    • It involves Surly, who has had some little bit of involvement with Fat Bikes? So it's interesting to see what Surly is up to.
    • Various people have hoped for cargo Fat Bike choices. Surly might be one we could expect such from. But instead we got a cargo e-bike...
    • It lets Fat Bike riders see some things that are happening with e-bike/e-MTB. Any of which could have a future impact on their trail riding or even access, so it's a good idea to keep an eye open.
    • It's reminded us of the grave & pressing issue of "there's not a thru axle cargo bike with a low BB."

    You don't have to click on the thread...
    Well, if I ever need advice for walkers or erectile dysfunction, I'll be sure to ask in the e-bike forum. I mean, I ASSUME that there is a lot of interest in that group, so they will obviously be receptive to that.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Well, if I ever need advice for wheelchairs or erectile dysfunction, I'll be sure to ask in the e-bike forum. I mean, I ASSUME that there is a lot of interest in that group, so they will obviously be receptive to that.
    I'll have to defer to you on that.
    Perhaps you can ask at Sea Otter next year.

    It's interesting to click on the Fat Bikes forum's "Replies" to see the threads listed in order with the most replies. Then "Views" for that order.

    Someone is kitting out their eMTB.
    https://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/fa...l#post14027989
    ~update: yes it's fat

    But remember - just like this thread - you don't have to click...
    Your choice.
    Crazy on this ship of fools...

  77. #77
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    You don't HAVE to post an e-bike thread in a mountain bike forum. You also don't have to call those that disagree with you "snowflakes" or reply to every thread I post. Your choice.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    ... or reply to every thread I post. Your choice.
    Yup.
    Crazy on this ship of fools...

  79. #79
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    It would be fun to get you both drunk and watch you argue.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shark View Post
    It would be fun to get you both drunk and watch you argue.
    LOL

    Maybe. Maybe not. I'd expect it to get pretty tedious fast.
    But alcohol may explain the errors in 'facts'.

    I'm reminded of what's said about trying to teach a pig to sing. And flat-earth adherents.

    Surly E bike...-surprise-makeover.jpg
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