Studded Endomorph!- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Studded Endomorph!

    I found snow/ice bike nirvana! I was tempted to use sheet metal screws or hex screws to stud my endos, but decided to check with a local auto tire dealership. I told him I was looking for studs and he came out with boxes of different sized studs. I chose the 11mm stud with aluminum carrier and tungsten tip. They sell for $60 for a box of 1000. He sold me 400 for $20. I drilled a full thickness 1/8" hole in the center of each lateral lug (total of 100), applied some epoxy to the stud and pushed it through (inside to outside of tire). My thumb was pretty sore but it didn't take more than 1 hour. The studs weigh 1.5g each (150g total for you MIT grads). The base of the studs sit flush with the inside of the tire so I don't think I'll need a protective strip. So far I have only done the front tire and it works great! I'm tempted to do a 2nd row of studs and also do the rear tire, but it seems to be doing well so far. I have done several rides, including pavement, and the studs have not dislodged, and I have had no flats.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Studded Endomorph!-picture-077.jpg  

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  2. #2
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    Awesome - that is the way to do it!! Are you running tubless? When you say they sit flush with the inside of the tire what do you mean? Isn't there a chance they poke further through when wieghted?

  3. #3
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    I am not running tubeless. I would like to post photos of the inside of the tire; next time I have to take it off. By flush, I mean the broad head of the stud sits flat against the inside of the tire (like a thumb tack) and I hope there is not enough of a sharp edge to erode into the tube; time will tell. I have seen no evidence of the studs becoming displaced thus far.

  4. #4
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    To be safe, I would dab some of the silicone that dude in the other thread used on each stud head. It would suck to destroy a tube because of it. Looks pretty cool though, and at only 150 grams seems very worth while!

  5. #5
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    Status report?

    Quote Originally Posted by campykid
    I am not running tubeless. I would like to post photos of the inside of the tire; next time I have to take it off. By flush, I mean the broad head of the stud sits flat against the inside of the tire (like a thumb tack) and I hope there is not enough of a sharp edge to erode into the tube; time will tell. I have seen no evidence of the studs becoming displaced thus far.
    How are things working out? Any problems with the studs staying in place? Tubes holding up?

  6. #6
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    The studded front endomorph is working great. Last weekend I rode some huge steep wet ice flows and the front tire held well. I had less confidence than I would with my 336 studded Freddies, but I had no slippage. However, coming back up the ice flow was impossible with my non-studded rear endomorph while my buddies with their conventionally studded Nokians buzzed up without difficulty. I have since ordered an Innova Spyder for the rear tire for the additional drive traction and will stud it before mounting it. I've never seen the tire so I don't know the position and quantity of studs I will place. I expect to place them more midline since I need more drive traction than cornering traction in the rear (I think). By the way, no flats or stud displacements yet.

  7. #7
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    Very cool!
    People wait for me on the way up. I wait for them on the way down.

  8. #8
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    when i did this (with a different tire and steel studs) I found that the edge of the stud chaffed against the tube and over time probably would have created a leak. I solved it two different ways on two different tires. On one, I put little patches of medical tape over the heads of the studs. On the other, I used a sliced open old tube as a tire liner. I noticed that the one with medical tape actually worked a little tiny bit better, and I think this is because it spread the "push out force" over a little larger area, allowing the studs to apply a little more pressure to the ground.

    I think tubeless with this setup would be asking the glue to do all the work of keeping the studs in contact with the ground, and that would be a step in the wrong direction (even if the glue sticks to the rubber better than I think it would).

    Locally, I couldn't find any aluminum casing studs and they certainly didn't have anything with a big pan head like that. Got a mfg name and part number, or an application they are intended for, or anything like that?

  9. #9
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    I did a little looking around, as these carbide studs are very interesting to me. It appears thet Ugigrip is a French company and there isn't too many US distributors. http://www.ugigrip.fr/netdata/ugiv2....EN&ml1=STUDCAT
    There is one guy selling some steel case/carbide insert 9mm x 12mm studs on Ebay. They are just slightly larger than the 8mm x11mm that the OP used and of course the steel case would be heavier.
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=263602_263622

  10. #10
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    Ugigrip studs

    I called the car tire place where I bought the studs and asked him who his distributor is and he gave me the name of Mohawk Tire Supply in Boston (http://www.mohawkrubber.com/). I hope this helps.

  11. #11
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    You guys were right!

    I got my first flat today on my front-studded endomorph. Sure enough, one of my beautiful smooth flush stud heads had eroded into the tube. I patched it and put duct tape over each head. Insecure with this fix, I put a dab of silicone caulk over each piece of tape. We'll see if this works.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by campykid
    I got my first flat today on my front-studded endomorph. Sure enough, one of my beautiful smooth flush stud heads had eroded into the tube. I patched it and put duct tape over each head. Insecure with this fix, I put a dab of silicone caulk over each piece of tape. We'll see if this works.
    I would guess that fix should work. Just silicon has always worked for me, but then again I don't have to worry as much about the studs pushing back into the tube.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by campykid
    I got my first flat today on my front-studded endomorph. Sure enough, one of my beautiful smooth flush stud heads had eroded into the tube. I patched it and put duct tape over each head. Insecure with this fix, I put a dab of silicone caulk over each piece of tape. We'll see if this works.
    Those look nice!

    As much as I love duct tape, I tried that on my first pair & still flatted prematurely when the duct tape shifted or wore through. Try a tire liner (or 2?) like Mr. Tuffy...flats are no fun in winter.

    I don't have a fatbike, but on my reg MTB I needed to put some studs closer to the centerline for grip on glare ice... maybe with the lower pressure you can run on the fat tires you don't need that though.

  14. #14
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    wonder if these would work from the outside. don't know the length of them.
    http://www.benscycle.net/index.php?m...de576e0e47ae16

    don't drill all the way through, then insert these. as long as the studs are the correct length...casing flush with the rubber. it would be a matter of finding the correct length casing and preferably aluminum to keep the weight down.

    and about the "push out force"...i think its negligible considering how much weight is on a tire and on a stud, for example put 10-20 psi in a tube by itself and push on it with 1 fingertip....it doesn't take much force to indent it and the tip of your finger is larger than the base of these studs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riken
    wonder if these would work from the outside. don't know the length of them.
    http://www.benscycle.net/index.php?m...de576e0e47ae16

    don't drill all the way through, then insert these. as long as the studs are the correct length...casing flush with the rubber. it would be a matter of finding the correct length casing and preferably aluminum to keep the weight down.

    and about the "push out force"...i think its negligible considering how much weight is on a tire and on a stud, for example put 10-20 psi in a tube by itself and push on it with 1 fingertip....it doesn't take much force to indent it and the tip of your finger is larger than the base of these studs.

    Show me a bicycle tube that will take 20 psi by itself, and I will show you a broken pressure gauge.

    Because the head of the stud is smaller than your finger, it will take even less force to indent it.... Not sure what you are trying to say?

    It is a simple ratio. Without the stud pushing out some (really in), the contact pressure of the stud can't exceed the pressure in the tube times the area ratio between the head of the stud and the tip.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocwandrer
    Because the head of the stud is smaller than your finger, it will take even less force to indent it.... Not sure what you are trying to say?
    that's exactly what i'm trying to say. a tube with 10psi in it will have very little force pushing on 1 stud because the base has such a small area, so the glue will be doing all the work whether tubed or tubeless. just push on a stud with something and see how easy it will push inside the tire with a tube and without glue.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riken
    that's exactly what i'm trying to say. a tube with 10psi in it will have very little force pushing on 1 stud because the base has such a small area, so the glue will be doing all the work whether tubed or tubeless. just push on a stud with something and see how easy it will push inside the tire with a tube and without glue.
    A 2 mm diameter carbide tip with a 10 mm stud head against a 10 psi tube can exert 250 psi of pressure into the ice before the stud wants to push into the tube to redistribute the load. So, studs can be effective at low pressures without glue (which I know from experimentation), but they will move around. If the glue really works well, I guess that is great. I'm skeptical though. the twisting and stuff that the stud goes through as the tire rolls seems to put a lot of odd combined stresses into the glue joint. By using a backer, you can get more than 250 psi in the above situation, without damaging the tube, and without counting on the glue to do all the work.

  18. #18
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    Sweet, I just scored a 1,000 count box of Ugigrip TMSI 12 SL studs off of ebay for 42 bucks. Probably won because everyone was busy handing out Halloween candy.

    I'll try to remember to get some pics of the modification process.

  19. #19
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    I once made up a set of ice tires with 1.5" shinny tires with machine screws screwed in from the inside out. They stuck out perhaps 3/8 of an inch. Lined the tire with duct tape to protect the tube. Didn't put a lot of miles on them but never flatted in the few times I went out.

    Had more traction on ice and frozen snow than in the try with normal tires.
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  20. #20
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    Studs showed up.

    Studded Endomorph!-img_4360.jpg
    Studded Endomorph!-img_4362.jpg

  21. #21
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    Things are under way. I'm concerned about the row of studs closer to the center of the tread. They look to be sticking out a lot compared to the outer knobs.

    What do you think, should I get some shorter studs for the inner row?

    The labeling on my box of UgiGrips was as follows:

    1000 pieces
    9-11-1/TSMI 12 SL
    1.5GR L.W.

    Outer row:
    Studded Endomorph!-img_4366.jpg

    Inner row:
    Studded Endomorph!-img_4365.jpg

  22. #22
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    I don't think the stud protruding will be a problem; I have had no displaced studs. What size drill are you using? What type of glue? How are you protecting the tube?

  23. #23
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    Okay.

    5/32" drill bit. EDIT: I drill a pilot hole with a smaller bit, can't remember size. When using the 5/32" alone, I screwed up a few knobs. The pilot hole helped with accuracy.

    Haven't decided on glue yet, if at all. Ideally I'd like the thing that keeps them in place to be maintainable / recover the studs after the tire is shot, which leads me to the next answer:

    Going to use two Mr. Tuffy style liners per tire, glued together along their lengths, to afford a 4" wide liner. Will trim to fit. If not wide enough, might just glue the liner on each side. Will have to see what shows up.

  24. #24
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    I'll be very interested to know if the studs stay in place without glue; would make the whole process easier and less messy. I never thought of rehabilitating the studs after the tire is dead; good point.

  25. #25
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    Yeah, I'm doing it for experimentation's sake, will be sure to post back w/ results.

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    In my experience, the studs protruding wont hurt or help traction or rolling in soft conditions (snow) and wont hurt traction on ice, at least not noticeably. The protrusion will hurt traction and rolling on hard surfaces (rock, pavement, really hard frozen dirt, etc).

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocwandrer
    The protrusion will hurt traction and rolling on hard surfaces (rock, pavement, really hard frozen dirt, etc).
    That's what I was driving at. I'm mostly going to be commuting, I'm guessing. In late winter, when snow thaws during daylight and refreezes at night, my route is 20% snow, 60% dry pavement, and 20% hilly ice flows. Why get a Pugsley just for commuting? There is one section of my route that gets no plowing and lots of foot traffic, so I want the frumpy tires to make sense of the inevitable lumpy ice chaos.

    I want it to be a sensible compromise sort of tire.

  28. #28
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    why not run studs only in the outer lugs then?

  29. #29
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    I might end up doing just that, yeah... I have an inquiry to Mohawk Rubber to see if they have any 8mm studs.

  30. #30
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    i would alternate them from the 1st and 2nd lug from the edge and don't put any in the middle.

  31. #31
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    Riken, if you look at the "Inner Row:" pic, that was the original plan. It's the notion that my 2nd-lug-from-the-edge is worn from normal use.

  32. #32
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    Reminded myself of something: DO NOT HURRY SENSITIVE WORK.

    Studded Endomorph!-self_explanatory.jpg

    Good thing I was planning on this being a rear tire, I'd rather have that step out in a corner than the front washing out.

  33. #33
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    try lubricating the studs with something like shoo goo...
    If Huffy made an airplane, would you fly in it?

  34. #34
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    Don't know if this will help for studs.

    I used to cut up car and truck tyres to make fenders for my boat, and I found dipping the knife in diesel made the job incredibly easy. Knife has to be sharp of course.

    Drilling holes in the tyre without a lubricant will probably cause internal tears in the rubber with the result above.
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  35. #35
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    I'll try it!

  36. #36
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    Using lube to drill or insert the stud may prevent them from staying in. Remember they're held in by friction. Shoe goo or rubber cement may work though.

    The pilot hole drilled from outside to in really helps with the alignment.

    I've got two seasons on my tires now still no pushed studs.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=497815

    I now have a spare set of endos I may stud, what length are the studs you're using? After rereading looks like 11mm

  37. #37
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    11mm, yep.

    I've switched my approach to a new pair of cheap(er) Larry tires. Things are going well.

    I also found that I didn't like the lube approach. That said, I'll also be seeing what effect a glued-on-the-casing liner has in terms of keeping the studs in.

    For sake of destroying no more lugs, I worked up to a four step drilling process:

    1) Pilot hole, very small bit
    2) Screw extractor bit (it has a cone shape), drill in reverse, to widen the pilot hole
    3) Drill the same diameter as the stud carrier
    4) Chew up the casing a little bit from the inside with a slightly larger than necessary bit, to ease the the stud carrier past the casing.

    I'm now back to using just two drilling passes. Almost done with one tire... which means my next post won't be in this thread, it will be in the studded Larry thread.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by campykid
    I found snow/ice bike nirvana! I was tempted to use sheet metal screws or hex screws to stud my endos, but decided to check with a local auto tire dealership. I told him I was looking for studs and he came out with boxes of different sized studs. I chose the 11mm stud with aluminum carrier and tungsten tip. They sell for $60 for a box of 1000. He sold me 400 for $20. I drilled a full thickness 1/8" hole in the center of each lateral lug (total of 100), applied some epoxy to the stud and pushed it through (inside to outside of tire). My thumb was pretty sore but it didn't take more than 1 hour. The studs weigh 1.5g each (150g total for you MIT grads). The base of the studs sit flush with the inside of the tire so I don't think I'll need a protective strip. So far I have only done the front tire and it works great! I'm tempted to do a 2nd row of studs and also do the rear tire, but it seems to be doing well so far. I have done several rides, including pavement, and the studs have not dislodged, and I have had no flats.

    Hey man. How are these holding up for you? Now that I've switched to Larrys as my primary tires, I'm thinking of studding my Endos.

    Thanks!

    Chris

  39. #39
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    Anyone try using Nokian replacement studs? Inserted from the outside?

  40. #40
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    I have shed a few studs off my Larry, but not enough to make a difference and I can easily replace them. So far, so good. I have switched to heavier tubes (qtubes, 360gm) because I found the Schwalbe tubes to be too fragile.

  41. #41
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    you should stud one larry, one endo, and keep one endo on the rear. The larry would be pretty cool studded.

  42. #42
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    I am using a studded Larry in front, and a studded Spider in back.

  43. #43
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    I need to stud, had a real good wipe out on snow/ice the other day ! Good pictures. Jim

  44. #44
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    After having ridden my Larry 200 stud front / Larry 200 stud rear for a few weeks now, I am thinking of switching to a Larry 200 front and Endo 100 rear. There is a rolling resistance cost with studs obviously, and I'd like to take not only the edge off from the studs but also gain the comparably slick tread pattern of the Endo.

  45. #45
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    I pushed 100 car studs thru an old endo on the 2nd rows of tread sealing them with silicone and running a cut 29er tube as liner. So far running this as a front tire. Seems to be working good, but could see using a larry front, endo rear, working better. Also, want to push 100 more studs into the next inner rows, but my thumb is still sore, two days later.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by JordyB
    Also, want to push 100 more studs into the next inner rows, but my thumb is still sore, two days later.
    It will stay that way for more than a week, each day it lessens slightly. It will heal though.

    Use a pliers if you can. I used pliers to get the stud about halfway into the casing such that it would hold still on its own. I couldn't go all the way because the pliers tip got in the way. Then use the handle of the pliers, or a hammer or something, to bluntly push the stud the rest of the way in. It's a finicky process, but you'll get into a good rhythm just before you finish =P

    Not worth continuing to damage your nerves over this.

  47. #47
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    13 mm studs

    I've been following this post for some time. As a stop gap I currently have chains on my Larry and Endo and it works well but I'd prefer to get set up with studs. The chains are heavy and I don't mind the weight so much but getting a flat will be a major ordeal. I imagine the studs would be much lighter and would certainly look a little more slick to say nothing of it being easier to change a flat. Looking at your photos, the 11mm length seems to be perfect. Locally I can only find 13mm and am wondering what your opinion is as to whether 13 mm would be too long. I am happy to spend the effort to stud them but have concerns about getting started and then realizing the 13mm leave too much of the stud protruding. I'm a little gun shy about drilling holes into a $100.00 tire so I want to be sure I have all bases covered before I do. I ride 80% snowmobile trails and single track and 20% roads. Any thoughts you have would be most appreciated. As an aside, if anyone from Surly is reading these posts, please, please make some studded tires.

  48. #48
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    I have some 12's laying around and they are to long, I think 11 or 10s would work better, as the 12s stick up so high, as you roll over them with ice/hardpack, they would want to push back in...

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    Surly isn't going to make a studded tire, there isn't enough perceived demand to justify the up front costs.

    I'm riding on studded Larry tires now, and the 11mm studs are actually a hair too long. One thing you have to keep in mind is that when fat tires are deflated, the tread will need to be scrubbed when turning at slow speed. The studs squirm noticeably while turning below 10 psi. If I could do over with some 10mm studs, I'd be happy.

    Here are some pics with 11mm studs in a "cheap" lower TPI Larry tire:

    https://dillerdesign.com/random/bike...d_Larry_tires/

    You can see from this one that the stud carrier is sticking out a bit instead of being flush.

    Have you tried visiting a car tire store and seeing if they can order some studs in a certain size?

  50. #50
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    10 mm it is then

    Thanks for your quick response. You confirm what I suspected. I'll check around for 10mm studs. A local place had 20 boxes of 13mm but no other size but there are a few other places around so I'll check there for some 10mm. Thanks again.

  51. #51
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    Right on, when you get to it, post the condition of your tires as well. Existing tread depth may have something to do with it, and Endo vs Larry vs TPI versions of both might be factors as well.

  52. #52
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    I'm gonna go pickup a box of 10's, in Alaska, tire shops are all over, and under $50 for 1k..

  53. #53
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    Guess I'll ask again. Any reason not to use these:



    http://www.biketiresdirect.com/produ...tm_medium=base


    But inserted from the outside? You'd just have to drill a hole to the right depth... or is there something I'm missing in how the tire was formed to insert these? On my Nokian 294s these can be replaced - but they don't stick into the inside - you push them in with a pen or the special tool...

  54. #54
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    http://www.aerostich.com/review/prod...stomer-reviews
    anyone try these ?
    they look promising
    thanks SJ
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  55. #55
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    bmike and sjoe, both are not cost effective, you really want about 200 studs per tire.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmike
    Guess I'll ask again. Any reason not to use these:

    But inserted from the outside? You'd just have to drill a hole to the right depth... or is there something I'm missing in how the tire was formed to insert these? On my Nokian 294s these can be replaced - but they don't stick into the inside - you push them in with a pen or the special tool...
    See the widest part, the pan head? I don't see a way to get those into the tread from the outside without a pneumatic gun.

    That's how car studs work. They're literally shot into a tire, the force of the thrust parts the rubber enough for the pan head to get in there, and then the carrier is designed to not back out.

    See here: http://www.brunowessel.com/studs/ins...dding_tire.asp

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller
    See the widest part, the pan head? I don't see a way to get those into the tread from the outside without a pneumatic gun.

    That's how car studs work. They're literally shot into a tire, the force of the thrust parts the rubber enough for the pan head to get in there, and then the carrier is designed to not back out.

    See here: https://www.brunowessel.com/studs/in...dding_tire.asp

    I'm wondering how the replacements go in... with just the replacement tool.

    https://www.bikeman.com/TL1100.html



    and this thread here has more information:

    https://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.p...kian+stud+tool

  58. #58
    will rant for food
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    Well, looks like I'm mistaken. Cool.

  59. #59
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    Not so good on pavement, but the old (and cheap) standby- sheet metal screws- do work quite well on everything else...
    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZN0DXeW_t1k?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZN0DXeW_t1k?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

  60. #60
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    After one week (70 miles) I am thrilled with these
    . Spendy but very light. Practiced on old tire... firm 90 degree pressure to
    get the augur started then slowly turn to spec.
    Put all 100 in front tire...two per tread.

  61. #61
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    my stud press

    no sore thumbs! punch from McMaster-Carr modif. kick press, magnetic chuck to hold studs.
    Been poking holes in tires for 12 years. Auto studs are great for general all round riding, long lasting. Sheet metal screws on ponds can"t be beat! Notice the hour glass shape of slugs, holds a auto stud enough that you need vise grips to take them out.

    Studded Endomorph!-studs-006.jpg

    Studded Endomorph!-studs-007.jpg

    Studded Endomorph!-studs-008.jpg

    Studded Endomorph!-studs-009.jpg

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmike View Post
    I'm wondering how the replacements go in... with just the replacement tool.

    Bikeman Nokian Stud Tool



    and this thread here has more information:

    https://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.p...kian+stud+tool

    old post but Im pretty sure those nokian studs go in mushroom shapped holes in Nokian tires. no way to make that shapped hole after manufacture

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmike View Post
    I'm wondering how the replacements go in... with just the replacement tool.

    Bikeman Nokian Stud Tool



    and this thread here has more information:

    https://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.p...kian+stud+tool

    old post but Im pretty sure those nokian studs go in mushroom shapped holes in Nokian tires. no way to make that shaped of hole after manufacture

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by waunan View Post
    After one week (70 miles) I am thrilled with these
    . Spendy but very light. Practiced on old tire... firm 90 degree pressure to
    get the augur started then slowly turn to spec.
    Put all 100 in front tire...two per tread.

    how are they holding up?
    did you add more or was 100 too many?
    I have a box on the way, pretty much a buck apiece but seems like the best option
    what tire(s) did you put them in?

  65. #65
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    positive so far

    I have an 8 mile commute in northern Idaho and these studs
    have worked really well in glare ice and a variety of snow packs.
    I think I have around 800 miles on them and no sign of wear.
    Carbide points seem like new. I put them on my front Endomorph
    and will probably do the rear for the dreaded, morning black ice, this winter.
    Spendy, though I love having some confidence when traffic looms.
    Suggest practicing with old tire... I took off the tire and used a wood backing
    to get them as straight as possible. Exactly 100 in front tire..they will give you a couple extra
    if you ask...one came out.

    Two rows of 50 near outside edge

  66. #66
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    Cool thread! I may be moving from Seattle back to Montana, but the move will necessitate a winter commute by bike, so this may come in handy.

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