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  1. #1
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    Spike pattern Nate

    I just spent the last few hours screwing spikes into a pair of Nate's. Testing will be for tomorrow but already a few observations which might help if you're planning something similar.

    I used special studs from this brand: Home page - Best-Grip.com

    Here's the catalog, it's the #1000 stud, specially made for mtb tires.
    http://www.best-grip.com/pdf/tabella_EN.pdf

    Observations:

    - this is no 5 minute job, make yourself comfortable, at ease with you surroundings you'll be at it for a few hours.

    - the knobs on the Nate are long enough to put these studs in without them protuding through the tire. Just.

    - those same knobs have slits in them, which don't really help with positioning the studs right where you want them... Pushing firmly down with your electric drill works better than trying to slowly & gently make them "bite" - too soft and they wander all over the place.

    - the drill bit (separate order) isn't magnetic like advertised...

    - I tried not to overdo it and positioned the studs evenly around the Nate. This pattern still took 95 studs in each tire, 190 in total.

    - 190 studs for the moment, I'm going to test them tomorrow and take the drill and additional loose studs with me. I'll add as much as needed to get decent grip.

    - Once that figured out I'll post a few pictures of the pattern.

    I needed to type this to get my adrenaline levels down... to work faster & easier I put the studs in with the Nate's on the wheels, with pretty high pressure in the tires to have a firm surface to work on. I obviously tried it first with a wooden block and the tire off the rim, to make sure the studs wouldn't protude on the inside.
    It didn't (just), so I went ahead by drilling the studs on the inflated tires.

    You probably guess what happened... I perforated one of the tubes... What really got to me was that it happened while putting in the very, very last stud: stud nr 190

    I took some pictures of the bumps the undersides of the studs make on the inside of the tire. Only time will tell if they eventually work their way through the carcass or not.
    I'll post all pictures tomorrow after I've got the pattern dialled in.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by caminoloco View Post

    - the drill bit (separate order) isn't magnetic like advertised...

    You can drag a magnet from one end to the other end of the bit to magnatize / de-magnatize it.

  3. #3
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    Interested in this. I believe the Grip Studs stud I'm interested in shares dimensions.
    Disclaimer: I run Regular Cycles (as of 2016). As a profiteer of the bicycle industry, I am not to be taken very seriously.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    Interested in this. I believe the Grip Studs stud I'm interested in shares dimensions.
    They are the same studs. Gripstuds is the US distributor
    Contact - Best-Grip.com

  5. #5
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    Pics or it didn't happen...

  6. #6
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    From their site:

    "The lovers of the Mountain Bike, that are forced to not stir for the bad conditions of the paths in the brushwood, made clammy by the conditions of the weather report during the winter, and whereas the snow and the ice are like it master for the whole winter, applying these small and innovative products on the tyres of their bicycles they succeed in never stopping their training and to have a good time . Even if in way some timid, is begun to organize competitions, whereas the conditions of the weather report allow it, also on the snow. Bestgrip has also planned for them small nails to insert in their thin plugged coverages. The biker can compete without incurring in dangerous and ruinous falls."

    How poetic....
    Little Shred Riding Hood

  7. #7
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    Ok, here goes: I heeded my own advice and made myself comfortable . Here you see a stud and the drill tool, with a "comfortable" background.The tool is still non-magnetic, the trick with the magnet didn't work... I admittedly tried it only with a not-so-very-strong magnet.



    Here is the inside of the tire, you can perfectly see where each stud sits. Time will tell if they stay like that or they'll work their way through and into the tube. I plan on putting a few screws into a Nate for normal offroad use and run it for a few 100 k's to see what happens.



    Here is the pre-prepared tire, fitted with 95 studs, 5 rows of 19 studs each. For starters, as you can see the studs are few and far between. We planned to start out with these and add as needed. Already sitting on a sheet of thick ice. Now some might wonder where I found such nice ice in Belgium, when winter hasn't even set in yet...



    Tadaaaa.....



    We soon decided that we needed a bit more grip, it wasn't too bad with the 90 studs per tire but we felt we could improve things by adding more studs on the side knobs. We only had the skate rink for ourselves during a limited amount of time, Rob from Swooth bike shop and I took a drill each to add studs on both ends of the bike.
    We added 19 to each side (of the tires), 38 extra per wheel.



    Much improved traction and control in the turns. You could comfortably keep pedalling in the turns and on the straights it was hard to spin the tire while sitting in the saddle and putting power to the pedals. You could power up quite a slope this way.





    The first skaters appeared, meaning our time was nearly up...



    A leisurely time at the local skate park, with the typical gear sorted out...



    Here is the pattern that we ended up with. We're pretty confident that for the use these tires are going to get (lots of natural ice and icy snow), it's a pretty good setup. On the sheer, just "ironed" ice of the rink you couldn't do any fancy or agressive moves. But the bike went where you pointed it, you could pedal and brake. What more does an ice-biker want ?
    The only problem was when stopping and putting your feet down, it was only then that you realised how slippery a "fresh" ice rink is...
    With these studs and I suppose with other kinds as well, the more you add, the more traction and control you'll end up with. For an ice race, you'd have to stud each and every one of the knobs.
    This setup uses a total of 266 studs on one bike. We choose a Nate in order to have adequate grip over a wide range of winter terrain.
    The knobs of the Nate are slit on top, to make them more supple. But that makes for a less-than-ideal platform for studs: they're sitting a tad more recessed than the manufacterer had in mind.

    Last edited by caminoloco; 12-01-2011 at 03:34 PM.

  8. #8
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    Epic and awesome. Totally awesome.

  9. #9
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    Good job and great write up. How many studs did you buy?

    By any chance did you weigh the studs ?

  10. #10
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    Nice!
    - Ed

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTR2ebike View Post
    Good job and great write up. How many studs did you buy?

    By any chance did you weigh the studs ?
    I bought 500 studs, and I did weigh them because it looked such a diminutive satchel to me and I couldn't believe there were 500 in there.
    But no way I was going to count all of them, so I ended up weighing 20 studs on a digital scale, multiplying that by 25 and then weighing the whole lot to see if it added up. It did.

    I just re-did that exercise because I forgot the actual figures: 30 studs weigh 19 grams. So with 266 studs we added about 170 grams to the bike.

    Not even a weight weenie would object

  12. #12
    Sup
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    I object
    Sj
    I am slow therefore I am

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowerJoe View Post
    I object
    Sj
    I don't, if I want to drop weight I can drop many, many times that amount by loosing weight myself .
    I just object to the cost... pretty darn expensive. But if they stay put it's definitely worth it: the hassle free studding process, no liner needed, no pre-drilling and long lasting. From what I read motorcyclists take years to wear their studded tires out, studs from the same brand.

  14. #14
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    Where in Belgium/Benelux did you get the studs, and how much did you end up paying for them ? (In euro's)

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabies010 View Post
    Where in Belgium/Benelux did you get the studs, and how much did you end up paying for them ? (In euro's)
    http://www.best-grip.net/

    322,- Euro for 500 studs and two tools... they'd better last...

  16. #16
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    For that amount, i hope they will.

  17. #17
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    Thing is that we made these tires for a very special project, where fooling around with sheet metal screws, sloppy liners and field repairs is totally out of the question. I did quite a bit of searching on the net and it seems that these studs are the best DIY "professional" solution. Not that there is much to choose between, but these guys have been making studs quite some time now and seem to know well what they're doing.

    So I hope they live up to their reputation.

  18. #18
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    I have been spending too much time with my 2 year old lately
    She has taught me to disagree no matter how silly

    The tires look great hope they work out 4 ya
    I have a set of nokians I need to wear out before spending more cash on tires

    have fun on the ice
    Sj
    I am slow therefore I am

  19. #19
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    ... and if we just ... Stud

    Great work. You have saved me many hours on the computer. You get a GOLD STAR.

    Green Fin
    Still cleaning my Fatback.
    It's a life style.

  20. #20
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    FWIW (likely very little), I have heard from other self-studders that one should not put studs along the center line of the tire to decrease drag. I wonder if you would lose anything by removing the studs from the center row of larger knobs, and instead place them in the smaller knobs that straddle the center line of the tire. Well, other than the weight of the additional studs used....
    Let the market decide!

    N42.58 W83.06

  21. #21
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    I don't know if the central studs add a lot of rolling resistance... If you look at the rolling pictures, all but the outermost studs touch squarely on the ice/ground/pavement. No matter where they are on the tire.
    I hear you with longer spikes, like the DIY screw tires, but these studs protude such a small amount that I doubt they add much rolling resistance anyway.

    Weight is not an issue either, taking away the 2x19 center studs would save 25 grams. If I'd add more studs it'd be on the row of knobs at the edge (not the outermost one).

  22. #22
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    What pressure were your riding at at the time you were at the rink?
    - Ed

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  23. #23
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    where to purchase in the usa I can't find a order page

  24. #24
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    I found this site...
    Tire Studs - Maxigrip Ice Studs - Snow Studs | MaxigripStore.com


    Just need to look at the tread thickness to figure out which one to order.
    - Ed

    2012 Trek Madone 6.7 SSL
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  25. #25
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    gripstuds.com sells the same studs in the US.

    The maxigrips are much longer and I don't think any fatbike tire has tall enough tread blocks to handle them. The shortest one of theirs penetrates 10 mm into the tire the shortest of the best-grip/gripstuds penetrates 5.8 mm.

  26. #26
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    Even with the short Best Grip studs it's "just" on a Nate, I think the knob height is more like 4 mm with the grooves in them. The just-off-center knobs aren't grooved, but placing studs there is far from ideal.

    Time will tell if they work themselves through the tire on the inside. I'll try to do a few long rides on non-iced tracks with a few studs in another tire to see what happens.

  27. #27
    Geordie biker
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    great stuff, never tried studs before, but it seems they work!
    2014 milage so far - 2,485
    www.ukfatbikes.co.uk

  28. #28
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    any cheaper sources?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by bnelson View Post
    any cheaper sources?
    Yeah, Drew.

  30. #30
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    ****, I have to update that thread... not burying the idea, but putting it on the back burner for now.
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  31. #31
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    At that price...

    Stud Gun (get your mind out from gutter):

    Stud gun OKU EPK-6.5 - Studding of bicycle tyres and footwear - Stud Guns and Spare Parts - Web Store - A-Tekniikka Oy

    Studs:

    Tikka Spikes Oy

    Considering the price especially on studs it becomes much faster to buy the stud gun and use the Tikka spikes what commercial tyres use..

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by caminoloco View Post
    I bought 500 studs, and I did weigh them because it looked such a diminutive satchel to me and I couldn't believe there were 500 in there.
    But no way I was going to count all of them, so I ended up weighing 20 studs on a digital scale, multiplying that by 25 and then weighing the whole lot to see if it added up. It did.

    I just re-did that exercise because I forgot the actual figures: 30 studs weigh 19 grams. So with 266 studs we added about 170 grams to the bike.

    Not even a weight weenie would object
    So you have 133 studs on each tire?
    - Ed

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  33. #33
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    Whoops. Wrong tool, that one was 600 euro one that requires compressed air...

    14 euro manual tool:

    Studding tool - Studding of bicycle tyres and footwear - Stud Guns and Spare Parts - Web Store - A-Tekniikka Oy

    133 studs is not much, commercial mtb tyres run excess of 294+ studs/tyre.

  34. #34
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    sakucee, haha, right on. I thought your previous post was a joke!
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecub View Post
    So you have 133 studs on each tire?
    Yes: 3 rows of 19 studs each (outermost rows and middle row) & 2 rows of 38 studs (the ones inward from the edges) per tire.
    I might add 76 studs extra on each tire (2 rows of 38 at the edges) just for the heck of it and because I have the studs anyway. That'd make a total of 211 studs on each tire. More would be a waste of time because they'd have to be added on the middle rows where they'd have minimal influence on cornering grip (which is what it's all about). Straight line traction and braking is take care of by the studs in the outer rows, which touch ground anyway through the fat footprint. Just the very outermost knobs don't touch ground when going in a straight line

    I've put in a row of 7 studs diagonally across another tire, one in each of the outer knobs and one smack in the middle row. I've put them in at various depths and left the one in the middle quite a ways out.
    I'm going to put at least 100 miles on asfalt and hard dirt roads on them to see what happens on the inside of the tire, if the screws will work through the tire and cause flats or if they'll stay where they are.
    I Haven't done enough miles yet (40) to draw any conclusions but so far so good: no flats and the middle stud which isn't screwed in all the way doesn't budge.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by lawfarm View Post
    Epic and awesome. Totally awesome.
    +1 - nice work...
    Safe riding,

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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by sakucee View Post
    At that price...

    Stud Gun (get your mind out from gutter):

    Stud gun OKU EPK-6.5 - Studding of bicycle tyres and footwear - Stud Guns and Spare Parts - Web Store - A-Tekniikka Oy

    Studs:

    Tikka Spikes Oy

    Considering the price especially on studs it becomes much faster to buy the stud gun and use the Tikka spikes what commercial tyres use..
    I got an inquiry on the price of those studs - the response sounds to good to be true, so I'm waiting for a follow-up.
    Disclaimer: I run Regular Cycles (as of 2016). As a profiteer of the bicycle industry, I am not to be taken very seriously.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    I got an inquiry on the price of those studs - the response sounds to good to be true, so I'm waiting for a follow-up.
    Told ya

    Those studs are used on Nokians and i _think_ in Schwalbes, the tip is carbide so it stays sharp for long time.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by caminoloco View Post
    I've put in a row of 7 studs diagonally across another tire, one in each of the outer knobs and one smack in the middle row. I've put them in at various depths and left the one in the middle quite a ways out.
    I'm going to put at least 100 miles on asfalt and hard dirt roads on them to see what happens on the inside of the tire, if the screws will work through the tire and cause flats or if they'll stay where they are.
    I Haven't done enough miles yet (40) to draw any conclusions but so far so good: no flats and the middle stud which isn't screwed in all the way doesn't budge.
    Quoting myself . I've done about 60 miles on asfalt so far plus a totally crazy downhill on a very rocky path - about 2000ft denivelation, more skidding than actually in control.

    None of the studs have budged so far, not even the one I had deliberately put in not deep enough. I'll log in some more road miles before taking them out and I'll put a picture in here next to a new stud to show the wear & tear.

    I'm doing my share, how about somebody else try out the other brand ?

  40. #40
    Chris
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    Caminoloco what kind of front fork is on the sand man bike?

    How does one use the hand tool for putting in tikka studs? On my nokian tires the stud holes must have been pre drilled or formed on the factory.

  41. #41
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    I'm in a process of doing studded Nates with Tikka PP studs. I'm now just waiting for the rest of the tools to arrive from A-Tekniikka. Basically you have to drill the holes with 2.5mm drill, put the stud in there with the hand tool and use Loctite glue with them.

    I will report here when my project progresses.

    Toni Lund
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  42. #42
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    Toni where do you get the Tikka PP studs?

    I haven't been able to find a supplier.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
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  43. #43
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    Velobike, I'm not sure but you could contact them directly, they have webpage in English:

    http://www.tikkaspikes.fi/

    I got some studs from my friend, for a start, and possibly they will be enough. But as far as I know, the Tikka PP studs are really affordable.

    Toni Lund
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  44. #44
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    Ok, here's the deal with the Best Grip studs. I did about 100 miles on asfalt, a very rocky, very rough and steep downhill descent. And maybe 10 miles of dirt. No ice, no snow. With 4 studs across the knobs of a Nate. I deliberately had the one in the middle stick out a bit, not all the way in as it should be. It didn't budge.
    One I had put in all the way, with the nasty bit of the screw just under the inside surface close to the tube. To see if the deformation of the tire would cause it to eat itself through. It didn't budge.

    Here's a picture of the studs, the top 4 being the ones I rode with. The 4 below new ones for reference.
    For winter use on ice and snow they'll be good for a long time, and you don't have to be afraid that patches of pavement will chew them up. And once they're in, they stay put.


  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni Lund View Post
    Velobike, I'm not sure but you could contact them directly, they have webpage in English
    They don't answer.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
    Latitude: 5736' Highlands, Scotland

  46. #46
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    I got an answer from Tikka - don't know why, because he admitted they usually only address orders with sizes around "hundreds of thousands". Paypal didn't have what I needed to pay them, but I'll post back about them when I have a box in my hands.
    Disclaimer: I run Regular Cycles (as of 2016). As a profiteer of the bicycle industry, I am not to be taken very seriously.

  47. #47
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    caminoloco - Did any studs penetrate the tire casing?

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    I got an inquiry on the price of those studs - the response sounds to good to be true, so I'm waiting for a follow-up.
    those studs require a hole, the grip studs are self tapping. alot more work to pre drill that many holes & more chance of going through

  49. #49
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    I studded up a larry and an endomorph earlier this year but we havent had any snow or ice yet to try them. I will say they are very iffy on the endomorph. the larry , no problem
    I started off using a screw gun and the tool but I found that you had to have a very steady hand or they would wander before grabbing, then I switched to a simple nut driver and the tool , much easier. I put 100 in each tire none in the middle . I hope I have as good luck as the op as far as losing any. I just tried out some new ice spikers on my 29er and lost 45 studs in 10 miles. but I didnt break them in and it was dry and rocky

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan0 View Post
    those studs require a hole, the grip studs are self tapping. alot more work to pre drill that many holes & more chance of going through
    I 100% agree that the installation will be more time consuming. Money vs sweat equity. The price on the Tikkas are way less than Grip Studs, so I'm willing to put some tedium into the equation.
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  51. #51
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    Got the Tikka studs in the mail - really didn't feel like 1,000 studs when hefting the box, very light weight.

    I'll get to experimenting with these in phases where my frame build is simply curing and cannot be worked on.

    Spike pattern Nate-img_4852.jpg

    Spike pattern Nate-img_4854.jpg

    Spike pattern Nate-img_4855.jpg
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  52. #52
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    You can use same studs to make very grippy winter shoes too if you wanna..

  53. #53
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    You need to get yourself one of these and access to an air compressor:

    TSIT-9, TSIT-8, TSIT-11 Stud Gun - Bruno Wessel - Tire Studs, Studding Equipment

    I helped the mechanic at one of my former jobs stud the tires on a grader. Using a screw gun with a ??" drill bit and that tool, it was incredibly easy.

  54. #54
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    I bet. I can ask the same fellow who is lending the vacuum - it's odd describing a mechanical problem to an older plumber type, it's usually "I know a guy that does ____". Who knows, maybe he'll know someone with such a gun.
    Disclaimer: I run Regular Cycles (as of 2016). As a profiteer of the bicycle industry, I am not to be taken very seriously.

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    which tpi did you go with?

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by christrek View Post
    Caminoloco what kind of front fork is on the sand man bike?
    .
    It's a German Answer "wide" fork, comes standard on two high-end Sandman bikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by GTR2ebike View Post
    caminoloco - Did any studs penetrate the tire casing?
    No, just the one that I put in to deep (see very first post in this thread). Once set, they don't move.

  57. #57
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    [QUOTE=Toni Lund;8839243]Velobike, I'm not sure but you could contact them directly, they have webpage in English:


    I got some studs from my friend, for a start, and possibly they will be enough. But as far as I know, the Tikka PP studs are really affordable.

    Toni Lund

    Do you know anyone who has successfully put this many tikka pp studs in with the manual tool? I was able to get a much lower price on the studs comprared to the self tapping ones, but the manufacturer was recommending not trying to put this many studs in manually. I am trying to figure out if they are just trying to sell me an expensive tool or if there is a reason other than time to not want to do it by hand. Also, are you planning to just use a normal drill bit with some tape to limit the depth to pre-drill the holes? I'm wondering if the bottom of the hole needs to be very sharp with 90 deg edges in order for the studs to wind up sitting straight.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanshoshima View Post
    ...
    Do you know anyone who has successfully put this many tikka pp studs in with the manual tool?
    ...
    The first batch of the Nokian Extreme 29x2.1 tires with 294 studs lost a lot of studs in the beginning. With my two pairs of them I've restudded about 200 studs, using the Tikka PP studs and the manual tool. After a few studs it took about 30 seconds per stud, including applying some glue. Granted, this is not exactly the same situation as yours, since the holes were already there and it seemed like the holes had a little shape that made the studs settle nicely, but it wasn't too much work.
    My outdoor blog: www.yetirides.com

  59. #59
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    Outsider, did the holes seem to be flared to have a larger opening toward the outside of the tread?

    Having a hell of a time getting them in.

    Also, after tinkering for a bit, I'm not sure that all of Nate's lugs will accomodate a Tikka stud. The center most lugs are the thickest, the outside lugs I think I'm going to stud with a dog point set screw - they go in pretty easily and won't be on the most worn part of the tread.
    Disclaimer: I run Regular Cycles (as of 2016). As a profiteer of the bicycle industry, I am not to be taken very seriously.

  60. #60
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    [QUOTE=sanshoshima;8874918]
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni Lund View Post
    Velobike, I'm not sure but you could contact them directly, they have webpage in English:


    I got some studs from my friend, for a start, and possibly they will be enough. But as far as I know, the Tikka PP studs are really affordable.

    Toni Lund

    Do you know anyone who has successfully put this many tikka pp studs in with the manual tool? I was able to get a much lower price on the studs comprared to the self tapping ones, but the manufacturer was recommending not trying to put this many studs in manually. I am trying to figure out if they are just trying to sell me an expensive tool or if there is a reason other than time to not want to do it by hand. Also, are you planning to just use a normal drill bit with some tape to limit the depth to pre-drill the holes? I'm wondering if the bottom of the hole needs to be very sharp with 90 deg edges in order for the studs to wind up sitting straight.
    I dont think drilling holes is the right way to use those studs, pretty sure car and bike tires that have factory holes are shapped like the stud. may work but I'd try afew first before I spent alot of $$

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    Outsider, did the holes seem to be flared to have a larger opening toward the outside of the tread?

    Having a hell of a time getting them in.

    Also, after tinkering for a bit, I'm not sure that all of Nate's lugs will accomodate a Tikka stud. The center most lugs are the thickest, the outside lugs I think I'm going to stud with a dog point set screw - they go in pretty easily and won't be on the most worn part of the tread.

    Im pretty sure those studs are for tires with existing stud holes ( flanged) thats why they make the self tapping type as well

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan0 View Post
    Im pretty sure those studs are for tires with existing stud holes ( flanged) thats why they make the self tapping type as well
    The email I got from the manufacturer said to make sure I mention that there are no holes pre-drilled in the tires when/if I order a stud gun because a special drill and/or bit is required to pre-drill the holes. I'm not sure what is special about it, but it seems like you would want to have the bottom of that hole have a specific shape to it.

    I'm starting to wonder if the hand tool is more intended for replacing studs that have fallen out.?

  63. #63
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    I also got the feeling that the holes had the shape of the stud, since the studs sort of settled nicely into a specific position. I don't see how the wider base of the stud would work with a straight hole, though.
    My outdoor blog: www.yetirides.com

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by sakucee View Post
    You can use same studs to make very grippy winter shoes too if you wanna..
    I ran with these all last winter. Self-tapping Maxigrip carbide studs. I pulled them out in the spring. If I do it again this winter I'll move them slightly inboard.

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/rmplum/5349592882/" title="Nike Free Stud Front by rmplum, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5289/5349592882_41a7285847_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="Nike Free Stud Front"></a>

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanshoshima View Post
    The email I got from the manufacturer said to make sure I mention that there are no holes pre-drilled in the tires when/if I order a stud gun because a special drill and/or bit is required to pre-drill the holes. I'm not sure what is special about it, but it seems like you would want to have the bottom of that hole have a specific shape to it.

    I'm starting to wonder if the hand tool is more intended for replacing studs that have fallen out.?

    could be for automotive tires , they come with the holes but NOT with studs installed.
    Last edited by dan0; 01-11-2012 at 02:50 PM.

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