Soooo... Why exactly is (insert name of big bike co here) evil?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Soooo... Why exactly is (insert name of big bike co here) evil?

    So apparently, Trek and Specialized are EVIL. And bad. And they kick puppies. They probably invented crack.

    Can someone tell me why they're evil?

    Here's my thing: I'm mostly a roadie, so maybe I don't get the MTB grudges. I've got 3 road bikes- one specialized, one custom, one old serotta. All 3 seem to co-exist just fine, and as of yet I have not found the Specialized trying to deflate the tires on the custom bike.

    Owning a custom bike doesn't make me less likely to buy a (Insert big bike co name here), and owning a Specialized hasn't made me less likely to buy a custom. Having a kid has made me less likely to own a custom. Does that make my daughter evil?

    So, Trek and Specialized are trying to dominate the market. What would you expect them to do? Just say, "enough is enough, we've got enough market share, let's all just be OK where we are." Most of these companies are run by and staffed heavily by ex and current racers. Most of whom have never said "Nah, I think I've won enough this year, I think I'm just gonna take her easy, give someone else a shot."

    You know how Trek and Specialized came to dominate the market? They worked harder, smarter and had a goal in mind. If, in 30 years, Fatback has leveraged their fatbike knowledge into a similarly sized empire (even specialized started small), will they be evil?

    Trek and Specialized have pretty well revolutionized bikes, for better or for worse. Trek pushed carbon harder than anyone else. They also pushed 29ers harder than anyone else. Both have been pretty good at producing a wide array of bikes at multiple price points. Want a capable, sub-$1000 MTB or road bike? The big guys have you well covered. Want a decent city bike? You can spend a fortune on custom, or around $800 from the big guys.

    Trek and Spec both sponsor an enormous number of racers. Trek is a local company, at least it is to me. Specialized is a local company to folks in California. Buying local for me would mean not buying a Surly, Fatback or 9zero7, none of which put any dollars into my state...

    So, what's evil here? What am I missing?

  2. #2
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    This doesn't need to be a fat bike topic. It has been discussed many times before.

    Spesh steals then sues.

    Only star wars fans hate trek

  3. #3
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    How much are they paying you??!!

    But seriously, I think I'd rather buy a bike from the suits at Spesh or Trek than the hipsters at Surly
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    I've never been a (insert bike co here) is Evil type of guy. If the whatever bike company makes what I like then that's who I will buy from. If their customer service is shit then I probably will steer clear of that company. I own and ride both Specialized and Trek and find them both to be well made capable bikes. Now with that said I've heard of some pretty unfair trade practices concerning Specialized concerning rims and suspension designs ie: patent issues.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    So, what's evil here? What am I missing?
    Around 1980 Mike Sinyard (Specialized's owner) bought a mountain bike from Gary Fisher and Charlie Kelly (made by Tom Ritchey). Sinyard took it overseas and had it copied and mass produced and called it the Stumpjumper. Everyone has been pissed at him ever since…

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    I dont know. I have a Trek MTB and a Giant roadie and now a Surly ML. They all three coexist peacefully in my garage. People generally want to hate large successful companies they believe that these companies are responsible for shutting down the small "Mom and Pop" places; which they may be since they have higher volumes they can push down their margins... just like the interwebs are killing the LBS'- capitalism baby.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizzard75 View Post
    I dont know. I have a Trek MTB and a Giant roadie and now a Surly ML. They all three coexist peacefully in my garage. People generally want to hate large successful companies they believe that these companies are responsible for shutting down the small "Mom and Pop" places; which they may be since they have higher volumes they can push down their margins... just like the interwebs are killing the LBS'- capitalism baby.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty $anchez View Post
    On matters of the big S you have no idea what you're speaking of.
    I have no idea what you are talking about...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJones View Post
    Around 1980 Mike Sinyard (Specialized's owner) bought a mountain bike from Gary Fisher and Charlie Kelly (made by Tom Ritchey). Sinyard took it overseas and had it copied and mass produced and called it the Stumpjumper. Everyone has been pissed at him ever since…
    Yeah, but didn't that lead to mountain bikes going from weird niche to total ubiquity? Let's face it, Fisher, Kelly and friends weren't exactly busting to get this idea out to the masses...

    And isn't that pretty much exactly what Surly did with the pugsley?

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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    So apparently, Trek and Specialized are EVIL.
    One thing you'll note is that the people who don't like Specialized aren't tweaked at Trek, Giant, Cannondale, Kona, etc... So your argument that all big successful bike companies are hated is erroneous on its face.

    That leaves you to ponder what is it about Specialized that makes them...err...Special in that regard?

    If you are really interested in an answer I would start with a Google search.
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  11. #11
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    I like Specialized. They make bikes. Bikes are fun.
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    Not sure evil is the right word, but some of Spesh's business practices seem more under-handed and sleazy than most. Lawsuits (threatened or actual) against a very small wheelbuilder in Portland and a very small bike bag maker in Anchorage for using the word Epic in their company names seems like bully tactics or downright paranoid. Forcing independent bike shops to drop other brands if they want to carry Spesh seems heavy handed, too. These practices alone would make me think twice about buying another bike from them (my last ones were an 81 Stumpjumper and an 84 Expedition). I haven't followed the Horst link issue and know nothing about the Trek story. About the only thing Spesh has that I'm currently interested in is their new Ground Control fat tire. If the reviews are good, I may find myself in an ethical dilemma.

    Come to think of it, maybe Spesh is evil. I've been sporting a devilish grin ever since I discovered the joys of mtb on the saddle of my old stumpy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    One thing you'll note is that the people who don't like Specialized aren't tweaked at Trek, Giant, Cannondale, Kona, etc... So your argument that all big successful bike companies are hated is erroneous on its face.

    That leaves you to ponder what is it about Specialized that makes them...err...Special in that regard?

    If you are really interested in an answer I would start with a Google search.
    I've heard things, they just don't strike me as any more evil than any other company I've ever seen...

    I remember when Cannondale was bought by Pacific (another local company for me) there was all sorts of outcry that cannondale was ruined, never buy another cannondale, the world is ending, etc.

    I've seen plenty of people who hate on trek. Again, coming from road world, you'd think that Trek actually paid Lance to throw kittens at hungry gators.

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    You lost me at "I'm mostly a roadie". I suspected there was something wrong with you, but geez. Sorry, man.

    To the question at hand: Once you get big, it's hard to hang onto your indie cred. Instead of being the underdog fighting against the man, you become the man. The fathers of mountain biking were rebellious counterculture types, and many within the ranks still view themselves in the same category, and therefore resist being associated with any entity that is large, capiltalistic and corporate, man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    I've heard things, they just don't strike me as any more evil than any other company I've ever seen...
    Not everybody cares about the same issues to the same degree and everyone's understanding of what's going is informed to a different degree.

    I have friends that shop at Walmart all the time to get bargains. I have other friends who wouldn't step inside a Walmart to save their lives.

    Some people will tell you they are totally evil and others will say it's just a smart way of doing business.

    In the discussions here in the fatbike forum the only company that's getting the evil rap is Specialized. I haven't seen anything of that nature about Trek or Kona or any other company putting out one of the new fatbikes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    Yeah, but didn't that lead to mountain bikes going from weird niche to total ubiquity? Let's face it, Fisher, Kelly and friends weren't exactly busting to get this idea out to the masses...

    And isn't that pretty much exactly what Surly did with the pugsley?
    Many find it hypocritical that Specialized got it's big break by completely ripping off someone else's bike, but then they turn around and send their lawyers after anyone who utters the word "epic".

    It's not a Fat Bike specific thing, it's a Specialized in general thing.

  17. #17
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    So it sounds like Spec is evil due to their litigiousness. Fair enough.

    Like I said, I'm mostly a roadie, so the only thing I know about Spec is that they tried to sue their former employees who started Volgai and lost. And that my Tarmac is one hell of a nice ride.

    Fatbikes are my only point of contact with the MTB world so seeing all the Spec bashing got me wondering what was up.

  18. #18
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    I have been working at a Trek shop for 6+ years now and I have nothing bad to say about the company as a whole. Their customer service has been amazing, they have a wide array of bikes for pretty much anyone and they offer great deals to employees through Trek University. I am also in the upper midwest and I can respect a semi-local business doing things to benefit the region. Trek is our main business so I can't talk about Specialized, Giant and so on. I do know that my personal experiences with Trek have been pleasant. The only thing I want from them is a steel 29er, my dedication to steel frame bikes is the only reason I don't own a Trek Stache 8!
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    Seems like it is cool to like the small guy until they become the big dude, then nobody likes them. Or maybe people think the big dude doesn't care/listen about product R&D, so then you get the "mass produced" feel to things.

    Who knows. And who cares really? People hate on stuff just to hate on it. I'm not a huge Trek fan, why...because I see them everywhere around here. Like Mongoose or Schwinn, a dime a dozen. And yet, I still have 2 Treks(in my defense, they were used off CL). Specialized....eh, don't really care. Would ride. But I don't ever look at their bikes when I am shopping for a new ride. I look at Surly, All City, Salsa, for new bikes. Sounds like a QBP fangirl but I'm not. My fave shop has those brands and I like steel rides, so it just kindof happens. I go in, I tell them what I want a bike for, and they show me the options(by QBP).
    Would love to go custom but a girl's gotta eat....so it gets me my more rare not see it on every corner ride and yet isn't a bank breaker. And yes, I shop and Walmart but I also shop my farmers markets and small shops. Sometimes a can of pinapple for .88 vs $1.59 comes down to shear budget when you are buying a week's worth of groceries. But then there ain't nothing like a farm fresh ear of corn either. But I don't knock either one for being an option. Options are good!

    In our garage, we have 2 Treks, one Redline BMX, one GT Dyno BMX, 3 Surlys, one Salsa, and one Next Wally World special. They all play nice together. Smatter of fact, 3 of em rode for ice cream to the parlor last night. Nobody died. And we didn't mock the Specialized bikes on the trail.....taint their fault they are naughty
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  20. #20
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    Most of the hatred towards Specialized seems to come from people who own businesses that compete directly or indirectly with Specialized.

    The hatred of those that compete with Specialized is motivated by three things - their own greed, their own fear and their own envy. They want what Specialized has earned, they fear the competition of Specialized and they envy the success of Specialized.

    There are only two kinds of people in the world - winners and whiners. They should stop whining and start focusing on winning. You can't whine your way to success or victory.

    Some of us are old enough to remember when Apple was still cool because Apple was a hopeless yet lovable underdog facing presumably insurmountable odds. Meanwhile, Microsoft was hated because Microsoft was an evil empire that presumably had achieved eternal invincibility. When Apple finally stopped whining and started to focus, guess what? Apple won. Now, everybody accuses Apple of the same stuff they accused Microsoft of doing in the past - in other words, abusing their market dominance.

    Small companies can beat Specialized, but they won't do it by whining.

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    apple is still the dog in PC land but they have gained recognition due to their focus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nvphatty View Post
    [Apple has] gained recognition due to their focus.
    And a roughly $450 billion market capitalization.

    Not too shabby, especially considering Apple was nearly bankrupt at one time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Spock View Post
    Most of the hatred towards Specialized seems to come from people who own businesses that compete directly or indirectly with Specialized.

    The hatred of those that compete with Specialized is motivated by three things - their own greed, their own fear and their own envy. They want what Specialized has earned, they fear the competition of Specialized and they envy the success of Specialized.

    There are only two kinds of people in the world - winners and whiners. They should stop whining and start focusing on winning. You can't whine your way to success or victory.

    Some of us are old enough to remember when Apple was still cool because Apple was a hopeless yet lovable underdog facing presumably insurmountable odds. Meanwhile, Microsoft was hated because Microsoft was an evil empire that presumably had achieved eternal invincibility. When Apple finally stopped whining and started to focus, guess what? Apple won. Now, everybody accuses Apple of the same stuff they accused Microsoft of doing in the past - in other words, abusing their market dominance.

    Small companies can beat Specialized, but they won't do it by whining.
    There are only two kinds of people in the world - those who divide the population into two types of people, and sensible people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SmooveP View Post
    There are only two kinds of people in the world - those who divide the population into two types of people, and sensible people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SmooveP View Post
    There are only two kinds of people in the world - those who divide the population into two types of people, and sensible people.
    Didn't you just divide the population into two types of people?

    At any rate, I couldn't resist - I watched "The Good, The Bad & The Ugly" last night. Tuco and Blondie constantly divide the population into two types of people throughout the entire movie.

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    Quote "Forcing independent bike shops to drop other brands if they want to carry Spesh seems heavy handed, too."

    Not sure where you get this idea from as here in Australia there are many dealers who sell Spec along side many other brands, the same as Trek, Cannondale, Giant etc big brands do.

    Where I work we are a Spec Concept store and can still sell niche brands, which we do.

    As for protecting naming rights, I guess that is why Campag were upset when they had to change the name of their "Daytona" groupset. Many companies want to protect names and I can totally understand that. The "Epic" is a bike that has no peer in XC and if it was my design I would be protecting it too.

    Having been in the industry for 20+ years and worked with many major brands as well as niche brands, I am just happy that bikes develop more each year, big companies and small alike lead to better bikes for all.

    My 2c worth

  27. #27
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    You think this is bad try dealing with sewing machine manufacturers. Each company has specific parts/feet that are only compatible with the company and you pay for it. Everything is patented and they will go after anyone that has similar stuff. They charge thousands for sewing machines and software (1000 dollars just for embroidery software) and you have no choice but to do it if you want to sew. A long arm machine runs at 10,000 dollars up to 30,000 for computerized ones. Would love one, but not at those prices.

    Each company dictates what each dealer can sell and prices set. You can't sell competing machines so a Bernina dealer can only sell Berninas. Every new technology is kept under wraps and you can't even get pricing online or buy/sell online from dealers or they will lose their store. You can't even call up and ask for prices of machines because they don't want you comparison shopping.

    I can't tell you how refreshing it was to come to the cycling world and find out parts are interchangeable, you can upgrade your bike, customize it, and knowing your store will help you out without any strings attached. You can call up and ask about prices. You can order online. Prices aren't set and it doesn't take weeks to get your bike back just for a cleaning.

    Every company looks out for themselves and their bottom line. Some do it more ethically than others, but they are all out for your money and out to protect what they feel is theirs. Some are more extreme/ridiculous than others like Apple going after another company over rounded corners.

    My only complaint on the Specialized fat bike is the ridiculous name which I know seems really petty. At least Surly/Salsa/ and the other companies have cool names for their stuff and sets them apart from from the boring stuff. My husband fell over laughing when I told him I wanted a set of Knards.

    I'd feel silly telling everyone I have a Fatboy fat bike when they asked about the bike. I'd love to have the bike, just would feel embarrassed about the name.

    Support the companies and LBS you love as no company is truly ethical with their business practices.

  28. #28
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    Both companies came out with black bikes and everyone knows black is evil

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Spock View Post
    Didn't you just divide the population into two types of people?

    At any rate, I couldn't resist - I watched "The Good, The Bad & The Ugly" last night. Tuco and Blondie constantly divide the population into two types of people throughout the entire movie.
    Yeah, but I did it in the name of humor, so it's OK.
    Haven't seen that movie in ages. I'm gonna have to watch it again.

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    Re: Soooo... Why exactly is (insert name of big bike co here) evil?

    Because it makes you look like the cool rebel, even though QBP is a huge company itself.

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    I love Specialized and Trek: they sell lots of bikes, and do it by appealing to fairly large segments of the market. If not for wide-appeal bikes, ALL bikes would be niche-market or custom, and thereby plain-vanilla boring.

    When you're old, slow, and your skills are atrophied, you gotta have something, eh?

  32. #32
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    They are "bad" because they are the manifestation of people's greed and need for cheaper/mass produced/marketed stuff. It's the people that hate specialized that most likely shop at costco, walmart, buy apple products, complain, etc, but when forced with the choice of "don't participate" in the giant corporate/capitalistic machine, they want their standard of living more than anything else, "screw those slaves in china making the i-pads, I better not pay more than $399 for it!". Complain about not enough american made stuff, but they don't put their money where their mouth is and buy the more expensive american stuff that doesn't give you as much...

    Nothing wrong with these companies, they want what you want, which is a higher standard of living at the expense of others...Any time we actually have to face this (ourselves) it creates friction and fireworks.
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    Because they put their big name on my entry level bike so I feel cool but at the same time I know its not really a good bike. So I feel conflicted every time I ride and pretty soon its going to cause me to have a mental breakdown and I will destroy the earth. So stop supporting the big names because if you don't the world will soon come to an end...
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  34. #34
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    Yes, spec is evil for the way they do biz.

    Trek is great, they took care of me on a warranty issue few years back. Good stuff. pretty sure Trek treats their dealers a bit nicer than Spec too.

    I'm sure we'll be seeing lots of their fat bikes next year on the trails.

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    It's comical actually. The people that hold the biggest grudge against Specialized have not ever had any personal dealings with them. They are pissed off about what they have heard about happen to other people, it's a mob mentality.

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    Spec sux, that is all....but...but...I do like their tires.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanesbw View Post
    Quote "Forcing independent bike shops to drop other brands if they want to carry Spesh seems heavy handed, too."

    Not sure where you get this idea from as here in Australia there are many dealers who sell Spec along side many other brands, the same as Trek, Cannondale, Giant etc big brands do.


    My 2c worth
    Posted here on MTBR: http://forums.mtbr.com/california-no...ds-804977.html

    I asked a LBS about this and they were not one of the dealers subject to this.

  38. #38
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    reading these type of threads is like looking at the car crash as you go by..

    Always remember, three out of every two people can't do math.

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    So that would be like asking a GM/Holden dealership to sell Ford etc. Come on, in this day and age we are seeing far more "brands" start concept stores as they sell more and more lines with the same branding or under a label they own. Look at CSG with Cannondale, Sugoi, GT, Mongoose Schwinn etc. There are many more like it. How many full on Giant dealerships sell other major brands? I haven't seen one yet and then all small dealers have to compete with 20% discount off the Giant product all the time. The major players don't want anyone selling the opposition brands over theirs if they can help it. Smart business practise if you ask me. One good thing for me regarding Specialized is that we know it isn't bastardised on line around the world.

  40. #40
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    My lbs carries the entire Specialized lineup, they also carry Giant, Cannondale, Seven, Indy Fab, etc....I guess they werent forced to change.
    I wouldnt blame Specialized for wanting to have exclusive dealers though, look at cars. When is the last time you saw a Lexus/GM/Ford dealer on the same lot?
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  41. #41
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    Nestle, Monsanto, Halliburton, etc.

    Not directly comparing of course, as they have nothing to do with bikes, but companies that seem to provide a "good" thing, that can in fact, also be capable of being very nasty to anything that they perceive as being in their way. Or, even worse, not care a wink about anything beyond their shareholders pockets, and their product utterly dominating the marketplace they choose to inhabit.

    Yes, capitalism is all groovy and sh*t, but I think there's a point where it starts to eat it's young, and loses it's "all's fair in love and war" more profits always means you're onto something, and starts to become money grubbing, nothing else matters but me and my bottom line, ugliness.

    And that, is where the bike companies in question, come in, IMHO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fat_tires_are_fun View Post
    look at cars. When is the last time you saw a Lexus/GM/Ford dealer on the same lot?
    Actually, quite common here in NJ. Auto malls, "superstores", etc. Very few dealerships sell just one brand around here. The independent bicycle dealer is the standard for bike shops in most of the US. The last single brand stores I can remember were Schwinn from back in the day.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Nestle, Monsanto, Halliburton, etc.

    Not directly comparing of course, as they have nothing to do with bikes, but companies that seem to provide a "good" thing, that can in fact, also be capable of being very nasty to anything that they perceive as being in their way. Or, even worse, not care a wink about anything beyond their shareholders pockets, and their product utterly dominating the marketplace they choose to inhabit.

    Yes, capitalism is all groovy and sh*t, but I think there's a point where it starts to eat it's young, and loses it's "all's fair in love and war" more profits always means you're onto something, and starts to become money grubbing, nothing else matters but me and my bottom line, ugliness.

    And that, is where the bike companies in question, come in, IMHO.
    Amen.

    As usual, this thread is more about the twisting of ideas than actually paying attention to the true issue.
    Riding Fat and still just as fast as I never was.

  44. #44
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    It seems to me that people who gravitate toward cycling often exhibit a some what higher level of social responsibility than say a person who chooses auto racing for example. There are all different levels of commitment to social responsibility including people who scale giant redwoods and camp out in them to prevent them from being cut down by loggers. Now I am personally in favor that activity and would support it but I am sure loggers hate it. On the other hand there are others who believe animals should not be raised on farms and then killed for food for people and that view is something I just cannot accept. I'm not sure where that puts me on the responsibility scale but when it comes to corporations in general many exhibit a dramatic lack of social responsibility mainly as a result of beholding to shareholder profits at all cost. For me a telling example of their greed is the outsourcing of production to countries where the costs are one tenth (or less) of the cost of the U.S. and yet none of those savings are subsequently passed onto the consumer, and many americans lose their jobs in the process. I read today that unemployment is at it's lowest in 5 years at 7 - 8 percent but that is mainly because so many people have stopped looking for work. That does not bode well for our future.

    Cannondale is a perfect example of this now that they have been acquired by Dorel and all of their manufacturing has left the country. Remember that Cannondale was a very successful and profitable company while manufacturing in the U.S. until they made the decision to try to compete with the firmly established Japanese manufacturers in the off road motorcycle market and went bankrupt. I have purchased many Cannondales in the past and still own most of them but it's not likely that I will ever buy a new one again. I don't "hate" them for what they have become but I am much less of a fan now.

  45. #45
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    Soooo... Why exactly is (insert name of big bike co here) evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by mtuck1 View Post
    It seems to me that people who gravitate toward cycling often exhibit a some what higher level of social responsibility than say a person who chooses auto racing for example. There are all different levels of commitment to social responsibility including people who scale giant redwoods and camp out in them to prevent them from being cut down by loggers. Now I am personally in favor that activity and would support it but I am sure loggers hate it. On the other hand there are others who believe animals should not be raised on farms and then killed for food for people and that view is something I just cannot accept. I'm not sure where that puts me on the responsibility scale but when it comes to corporations in general many exhibit a dramatic lack of social responsibility mainly as a result of beholding to shareholder profits at all cost. For me a telling example of their greed is the outsourcing of production to countries where the costs are one tenth (or less) of the cost of the U.S. and yet none of those savings are subsequently passed onto the consumer, and many americans lose their jobs in the process. I read today that unemployment is at it's lowest in 5 years at 7 - 8 percent but that is mainly because so many people have stopped looking for work. That does not bode well for our future.

    Cannondale is a perfect example of this now that they have been acquired by Dorel and all of their manufacturing has left the country. Remember that Cannondale was a very successful and profitable company while manufacturing in the U.S. until they made the decision to try to compete with the firmly established Japanese manufacturers in the off road motorcycle market and went bankrupt. I have purchased many Cannondales in the past and still own most of them but it's not likely that I will ever buy a new one again. I don't "hate" them for what they have become but I am much less of a fan now.
    I tend to go by my biblical upbringing on food. It is written that we can eat of every animal but not ones with a cloven hoof or do not chew its cud twice. But I can still eat the hell out of bacon. Lol
    I do however do not see a reason animals should NOT be treated humanely. No reason to be cruel. Just watching the documentary Food Inc. is an eye opener.

    Economy wise though we are screwed. By allowing foreign goods into the country cheaper than we can produce them is unfair trade practices. But or government ignores this. So all our manufacturing went over seas. It really says something when you can ship raw material over seas and import a finished product and sell it cheaper than you could if you made it across the street. Even though I'm a union worker the unions helped kill our economy. GM perfect example. We have become a service oriented country as opposed to manufacturing. Our government screwed us with NAFTA and every other treaty. I wish we could increase tariffs and become a mighty nation we once were
    Chances are .. You're full of [email protected]&?

  46. #46
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    Random thoughts...

    1) I stopped in a bike shop while passing through a town and they had a really great Mukluk display. It was custom made from a log and held the bike perfectly. A well done art piece. However it was in the back corner of the store. I asked the shop guy why it wasn't in front, and he said since they are a Trek dealer, any non-Trek bikes need to be so many feet away from the Trek bikes on the floor. So the Surlys and Salsa bikes were relegated to a small corner in the back of the store.

    2) Cannondale still makes some things in the US, like their Hollowgram cranks.

    3) 9Zero7 moved production from the US to Taiwan and there was no boycott from this forum.

    4) Salsa sold their soul to Scheels this year, a large sporting good chain in the Midwest, which voided their special dealer/distance network. Small independent dealers who used to sell Salsas as their specialty...no longer have that specialty, when you can go buy one at Scheels, alongside fishing rods and footballs.

    The point is, business is ugly and the list of companies that have pulled a dick move is much longer than the list of those who haven't. The difference is, buying from a "clean conscience" company will cost a lot more.
    Jason
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  47. #47
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    Soooo... Why exactly is (insert name of big bike co here) evil?

    That's why my next bike will be made here in the USA
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAGI410 View Post
    3) 9Zero7 moved production from the US to Taiwan and there was no boycott from this forum.
    Building bikes in Taiwan does not equal a company acting like an a$$hole. It's great if you can buy a bike product/frame made in North America, but if you are going to ride only US made product you won't have much to choose from - especially when you get to the components.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAGI410 View Post
    4) Salsa sold their soul to Scheels this year, a large sporting good chain in the Midwest, which voided their special dealer/distance network. Small independent dealers who used to sell Salsas as their specialty...no longer have that specialty, when you can go buy one at Scheels, alongside fishing rods and footballs.
    Didn't they come up with a specific bike for Scheels? It doesn't seem like the bike I saw is going to compete with the main Salsa line up at a LBS. Your not going to Scheels to buy your BearGrease or Vaya.
    Safe riding,

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    Yeah the Scheels thing doesn't count. The bike is a specific brand unto it's own, and it is specific to hunting stores, Scheels being the first.

  50. #50
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    Soooo... Why exactly is (insert name of big bike co here) evil?

    Yeah unfortunately I'm screwed as far as components go . But I can still get a frame made here.
    Chances are .. You're full of [email protected]&?

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Building bikes in Taiwan does not equal a company acting like an a$$hole.
    I agree. I love 9zero7, great company and bikes. I'd greatly prefer a US built version though!


    Didn't they come up with a specific bike for Scheels? It doesn't seem like the bike I saw is going to compete with the main Salsa line up at a LBS. Your not going to Scheels to buy your BearGrease or Vaya.
    Yes Cogburn bikes will be Scheels exclusive for a while, but Scheels stores have access to the full line of Salsa bikes as well. They didn't before.
    Jason
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  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAGI410 View Post
    I agree. I love 9zero7, great company and bikes. I'd greatly prefer a US built version though!

    Yes Cogburn bikes will be Scheels exclusive for a while, but Scheels stores have access to the full line of Salsa bikes as well. They didn't before.

    If you take a look at the Cogburn Facebook page, it says that Scheels only has the exclusive contract until January 1st. After that, more stores will carry them, I'm expecting sports stores like Bass Pro Shop and Cabellas. For this year, expect to see 5 Cogburns in the Fargo store. Really, they are just made through QBP and are re-branded Salsa frames with "bead blasted" components. The big cost comes in with the camo dip, other than that they are fairly basic fat bikes.

    If anyone wants a clean conscious fat bike, I think Lynskey, Waltworks or Moots would be the best bets. But, as said before, its expensive. My next frameset purchase is going to be a Cielo 29er frame with their new fork. It will be close to the final piece of my "as American/European made as I can" bike.
    My motorcycle runs on infant blood

  53. #53
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    Re: Soooo... Why exactly is (insert name of big bike co here) evil?

    No one is forcing bike shops to carry Specialized or Trek. The bike shop I go to does very well and they do mainly QBP, Kona, and a few small brands. They don't have a single Specialized or Trek product in the store.

  54. #54
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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    Quote Originally Posted by SmooveP View Post
    You lost me at "I'm mostly a roadie". I suspected there was something wrong with you, but geez. Sorry, man.

    To the question at hand: Once you get big, it's hard to hang onto your indie cred. Instead of being the underdog fighting against the man, you become the man. The fathers of mountain biking were rebellious counterculture types, and many within the ranks still view themselves in the same category, and therefore resist being associated with any entity that is large, capiltalistic and corporate, man.
    There hasn't been any thing rebellious about MTB in decades. FATBIKES came from "see a need fill a need". I bought one so I could ride to work safely, Not so I could say hey look at me I ride a fatbike I'm different.
    Still cleaning my Fatback.
    It's a life style.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenfin View Post
    I bought one so I could ride to work safely, Not so I could say hey look at me I ride a fatbike I'm different.
    If those are the only 2 reasons to ride a fatbike, I see no reason to continue.

  56. #56
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    Exactly!
    Fat bikes are about fun, going where regular bikes can't go, and more fun.

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    Dang! Wasn't up on all the politics... kind of wish I hadn't read this thread! I really respect allot of the folk's opinion's on here and unfortunately my mind will now be tainted with "issues" when I visit my local "Spesh" dealer. Have tried real hard to remain "product" and "quality" oriented rather than be loyal (or boycott) to anyone's brand... or shop. When a company (big, small,owned by friend or foe) come's out with something I truly want... I'd just like to plop my cash down and enjoy the product.

    Good or Bad (and both exist in just about everything if you look close enough) the big co's Do bring the cool stuff to the masses and often make good quality available at a much more affordable price... so more folks can enjoy the thing.

    Just really wish Spesh hadn't sued people I like!!! Maybe they need to chime in, apologize and change they're attitude... Put the kybosh on the lawyers and get back to making cool stuff!

  58. #58
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    One thing I DO like about Specialized is their refusal to let online retailers sell their product. So that way, you don't get an a-hole walking into my favorite LBS, trying on some shoes, and then ordering them off some fly-by-night internet retailer. I like this because it hopefully will help my LBS stay in business. No matter how awesome a shop it is, there's always tons of people who will go into the store for fitting and then buy online.

    Another thing, is they do take care of their stores, I frequently hear from my LBS about how great Spesh is to them. And the last few local (and small) enduros I've been to, Specialized has sponsored (generously).

    I'm not sure those things balance out the douchey things they do. But I do buy Spesh tires and other small items as needed, to support my LBS, even if that means I am also helping out Specialized.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAGI410 View Post
    I agree. I love 9zero7, great company and bikes. I'd greatly prefer a US built version though!
    Is that your bicycle purchasing actions or idealistic thought? This kind of goes back to my post that we say we'd like to support US manufacturing, but we really don't mean it.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Is that your bicycle purchasing actions or idealistic thought? This kind of goes back to my post that we say we'd like to support US manufacturing, but we really don't mean it.
    I try to buy American whenever I can, but my wallet only allows for so much. When the US premium exceeds 30% or so, my wallet says, "hey Taiwan isn't so bad!". Sometimes the premium is completely worth it though. Depends on the product! Adopting a US only buying philosophy can only go so far in the bike world anyway.
    Jason
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  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAGI410 View Post
    I try to buy American whenever I can, but my wallet only allows for so much. When the US premium exceeds 30% or so, my wallet says, "hey Taiwan isn't so bad!". Sometimes the premium is completely worth it though. Depends on the product! Adopting a US only buying philosophy can only go so far in the bike world anyway.
    Well, that's the point. Lots of people "say" it, but they'd rather take the "quick and easy" rather than wait a little while longer and buy the more expensive US alternative that is adding to the US economy, etc. I'd rather support whomever is the most competitive from a technology and design standpoint, as that is what really drives competition IMO and it doesn't depend as much on what country it's in, as the manufacturing is usually going to be outsourced to whomever can do it the cheapest and keep whatever standard of quality is being asked.

    If one (you, me, whomever) actually did abide by the ideology, we'd have less "stuff". Somewhere we decided having more/better "stuff" was a lot more important than US manufacturing.

    All that said, I think it comes down to unrealistic business expectations by manufacturers and companies. The only constant in business is change and someone will always find a way to make a part cheaper, easier, quicker, whatever...To compete you must continually expand markets, find new markets, come up with new stuff, come up with new ways to manufacture the stuff, invent new processes, etc. It doesn't have to be a frantic pace, but the company that sits there and thinks they'll be able to crank out a certain widget indefinitely is the most likely to get killed off by competition IMO, and many workers are in this position with companies that don't really understand how to evolve their business. If they get cornered and are unable to compete, then it's just the ashes of capitalism that will regenerate to form something new.

    Have no fear though, I'm going to predict that 3d printers will be installed in the back of walmarts and they'll crank out crap with no workers at all, well, at least some of it, and at least greatly reducing manpower. Then the question is what we do with all those extra people...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  62. #62
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    ...won't even need walmart at that point...we'll be able to crank out our own stuff before too long...all we'll have to do is buy the cad file download it into our own printers...
    If Huffy made an airplane, would you fly in it?

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by damnitman View Post
    ...won't even need walmart at that point...we'll be able to crank out our own stuff before too long...all we'll have to do is buy the cad file download it into our own printers...
    Yes, but we won't be able to afford the printers, only the $2.99 walmart printed lawn chairs and appliances
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

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