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  1. #1
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    Snow Paddle Tires, How Bout It

    so doing any kind of riding in loose deep snow is almost impossible even on a fatbike and if there's any kind of climbing involved forget about it...the rear wheel just spins out

    Curious if anyone has thought of making a snow/sand specific paddle tire for a mountain bike.

    something like this...
    Snow Paddle Tires, How Bout It-fattire.jpg

    I think there is a lot of room for improvement for snow tires especially on fatbikes...most of the tread designs work great for dirt or hardpack snow but for the deep stuff nothing really works good as a rear tire to push you forward.

  2. #2
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    cross posting from the wheels and tires thread:

    would be for deeper snow and loose sand, more of a fatbike specific rear tire. Really the only reason I see to own a fatbike is to ride in those conditions ... otherwise if its a firm snowpacked trail you can ride an xc trailbike just as easily as a fatbike

    was pretty disappointed in the fatbike's capabilities to ride in deeper looser snow, especially trying to climb the rear tire would just spin out, a true paddle tire would probably increase a fatbikes capabilities quite a bit. Would be easy for manufactures to redesign the rear triangle cross supports to accomodate really tall lugs/paddles...wouldnt have to make the tires any wider

    I know for a fact after riding a fatbike in the snow all last season that this tire would own it!!

    Problem is most fatbike manufactures are designg fatbike tires that have dirt tread patterns. And the whole rationale behind fatbikes is that you are supposed to ride them in snow and sand which is nothing at all like riding in dirt.

  3. #3
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    I think using a tire like that would necessitate a second wheel, at least for the vast majority of riders, so you could swap to it when riding deep powder. That tire would suck in hardpack snow, light snow, and even wet or frozen sand. Ice? It would be a deep powder/dry sand only tire. It wouldn't work for anyone who rides roads to get to a trail.

    Maybe an ~inch long paddle, more closely spaced could work and fit in some current frames? There is a small market for such a tire, but there are occasional rides where such a tire would work wonders.

    That viewpoint for fatbike usage is very limited, and not representative of where/how most of fatbikes get used. You have to sell the tire to real customers, in quantity, to make it worth producing.

  4. #4
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    Simon Rakower (Snowcat Guru, Fatbiking Godfather) had some input with Nokian on this tire back in the 90's Nokian Boazobeana R Tire Reviews - Mtbr.com. It was designed as a rear-specific tire with optimal performance on a Snowcat. It has a paddle-esque design and had a Front-specific mate...kinda like a "Dart" on steroids. I have a prototype Boazobeana that Simon gave me on loan to a buddy's collection. It has great drive traction but gets really squirly on anything moderately off-camber...I 'spect a paddle tire would be similar...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Snow Paddle Tires, How Bout It-iditasporthxa.jpg  

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    Many moons ago - back when you had to post your fatbike on the 29er board - someone posted a Pug they had modded with paddles. They had sliced garden hose down the middle then cut it into 3.5" lengths and attached those pieces to his endomorphs. He never reported his findings as far as I can find.
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    Not much you can do when snow is that deep. Either wait for others to forge a path or air down as much as possible and suffer like the rest of us.

    Tires like that would be great in a straight line but horrible in any off camber terrain.

  7. #7
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    I think you could incorporate some big cross-wise lugs or chevrons into a rear specific tire that would make it bite better on climbs in loose snow, while keeping the side and transition knobs that help in off camber and cornering. There's plenty of tire surface there to support both, eh?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by damnitman View Post
    Simon Rakower (Snowcat Guru, Fatbiking Godfather) had some input with Nokian on this tire back in the 90's Nokian Boazobeana R Tire Reviews - Mtbr.com. It was designed as a rear-specific tire with optimal performance on a Snowcat. It has a paddle-esque design and had a Front-specific mate...kinda like a "Dart" on steroids. I have a prototype Boazobeana that Simon gave me on loan to a buddy's collection. It has great drive traction but gets really squirly on anything moderately off-camber...I 'spect a paddle tire would be similar...
    Cool display! Reminds me of my old Wildfire that I sold a few years ago.

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    You're misunderstanding the nature of snow and the human interaction with it.

    Put another way, no human has the horsepower to turn over a paddle tire that'd do what you want it to.

  10. #10
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    couple more sources of inspiration...

    Name:  stock-photo-tire-on-motorcycle-paddle-tire-used-on-dirtbike-for-hillclimb-1641578.jpg
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    Snow Paddle Tires, How Bout It-pedalboat_zps4f0fddc1.jpg

    you ever been in a paddle boat before? kind of the same concept

    If theres enough power for me to spin out the rear tire in snow theres enough power for me to spin a paddle tire

    I think thats the whole point of being on a fatbike is being able to blaze new trails or riding through crud that you normally wouldnt be able to ride on an xc bike. If you are riding on hardpack trails and ice why not ride an xc bike they work much better especially if you have studded tires.

    Ive had a lot of fun on my fatbike dont get me wrong but theres really not much advantage over an xc bike in snowy riding conditions

  11. #11
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    damnitman^^ thats the general idea thanks for that link... remove a few rows of the lugs and increase their height and its pretty much there

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    You're misunderstanding the nature of snow and the human interaction with it.

    Put another way, no human has the horsepower to turn over a paddle tire that'd do what you want it to.
    ^this x 10 and if the snow is that deep you can't turn the crank anyway.

  13. #13
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    couple shots of an experiment that I made last night of a paddle tire, took about an hour...when riding in non packed snow you dont feel the lugs at all very smooth

    the lugs are kind of flimsy will probably try to make a something a bit more sturdy.

    another idea was for a snow chain thing that you could strap to your rear tire for when the going gets tough...the center portion of the snow chain could have raised paddles for the deeper stuff

    Snow Paddle Tires, How Bout It-img_6677.jpg
    Snow Paddle Tires, How Bout It-img_6678.jpg

    hopefully i wont get a flat

  14. #14
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    I have a feeling paddle tires would suck once it goes off camber
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    You're misunderstanding the nature of snow and the human interaction with it.

    Put another way, no human has the horsepower to turn over a paddle tire that'd do what you want it to.
    Ditto. When the snow gets to deep/soft to ride... time to switch to ski's or snow shoe's. In fact I often carry a small set of snow shoes on my rack so I can continue traveling past the ridable stuff. If we get a big snow, often I'll go out on snow shoes first to pack a favorite route. And, though as cyclists we might like to thumb our nose's at the motorized crowd, for fat bikers in winter (in my area anyway), snowmobiler's are your friend- and trail groomer. They're routes make it possible to ride deep into the back country around here.

    Keep dreaming and tryin' stuff though... that's how we got here. But IMO, even if paddles worked, the'd suck the energy out of your body so quick they wouldn't get you far anyway. Some really short paddles, say 1/4" or shorter might be cool in sand, maybe w/ a chevron tread? We basically had that with Endo's. Like to see a new generation 5" Endo-ish tire.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmar123 View Post

    Ive had a lot of fun on my fatbike dont get me wrong but theres really not much advantage over an xc bike in snowy riding conditions
    Totally off base. Just did a ride outside of Nederland, CO at 10,000'. Snow was soft and hardly compacted. The guys with the high floatations Buds and Lou's ran circles around us with everything from Husker DU's, On One Floaters and even Nates. An standard mtb 2.5 or under would of had nothing on that ride. It's all about contact patch and grip.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountaingoatepics View Post
    It's all about contact patch and grip.
    Yes, grip...

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiniTrail View Post
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    ^^^This.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountaingoatepics View Post
    Totally off base. Just did a ride outside of Nederland, CO at 10,000'. Snow was soft and hardly compacted. The guys with the high floatations Buds and Lou's ran circles around us with everything from Husker DU's, On One Floaters and even Nates. An standard mtb 2.5 or under would of had nothing on that ride. It's all about contact patch and grip.
    +1.dmar123 get a grip man.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    You're misunderstanding the nature of snow and the human interaction with it.

    Put another way, no human has the horsepower to turn over a paddle tire that'd do what you want it to.
    I agree totally. The problem isn't traction, it's power.

    I guess I'm not sure why people think that what we currently have doesn't offer enough traction. The Lou isn't enough "paddle" for you? Air down and lean back?

  21. #21
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  22. #22
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    a few more inspiration photos
    Snow Paddle Tires, How Bout It-151_rear_angle2a.jpg

    Snow Paddle Tires, How Bout It-chains-big.jpg

    Snow Paddle Tires, How Bout It-177580-2006-mxzx-440-201051319631262_23162.jpg

    Snow Paddle Tires, How Bout It-attachment.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  23. #23
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    go for it and report back

  24. #24
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    MiniTrail

    this is what this post reminds me of.

    number of hills climbed in video = 0 and they're pedaling down hill. Not what you're after is it

    ...a bit off topic but those ktakcycles are pretty capable in what they can pedal through

    I would like to see fat bikes have the same capabilities as those ktrakcycles


    again im not a fatbike hater so dont get all defensive on me...just kickin around some ideas to improve tires in snow

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmar123 View Post
    ...a bit off topic but those ktakcycles are pretty capable in what they can pedal through
    Have you actually ridden one? Does anyone here know anyone that has one and uses it?
    Riding Fat and still just as fast as I never was.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    You're misunderstanding the nature of snow and the human interaction with it.

    Put another way, no human has the horsepower to turn over a paddle tire that'd do what you want it to.
    Succinctly put! I resemble this. The stuff B and L get me into exceeds my motor regularly.

  27. #27
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    How about (this may sound crazy but bear with me): Square wheels! As it rolls (assuming it would) you'd get alternating monster contact patches for ultimate flotation immediately followed by right angle corners for optimum propulsion. Yes, calculating the spoke lengths needed may be a bit of a challenge, and it would likely ride a bit rough, but since you'll be in deep powder, you'll probably never even notice.

    Glad I could help, thank me later.

  28. #28
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    Hmm, I guess haters are gunna hate.

    While I think dmar's inspirations are a bit ambitious, I too wonder why there aren't more aggressive snow-specific tires on the market. I was out last week with Husker Du's on back and just spun out in a few places in loose snow. Sure I could lower the pressure, reverse the tire direction, or buy a Nate for a rear tire...

    Admittedly, the Nate is pretty close, but I think it could be a little more snow/sand specific, it still looks like its a compromise for use on dirt too, really the tread are no more deep or wide than my first snow tire, the Specialized More Extreme.

    <img src="https://www.bikepro.com/products/tires/tire_jpg/j2jj_more_ext_tread.jpg">

    Another thing I think is missing on fat bike tires are sipes. The Bud/Lou/Nates have a little crosshatching on top of the tread, but why not across the entire casing? Could give us a lot more traction on ice and slick snow.

    They use computer aided design for other other bicycle tires, would this be useful for snow tread?

    EDIT: I don't know a lot about rubber compounds, but I suspect some tires could be made with softer rubber too and that would certainly help a lot. Surly & 45Nrth don't seem to list what rubber compound they use... is it softer or not?
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  29. #29
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    Reminds me of an oft-repeated joke inside the bike industry:

    Sponsored racer geek: "I've got an idea for a new, more betterer tire".

    Tire manufacturer type: (rolls eyes, exhales exhaustedly) "Oh?"

    SRG: "Yeah--see this tire here? You've got it all wrong--you need to put a knob where right now there's a space, and then put a space where there's currently a knob…".

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildfire View Post
    How about (this may sound crazy but bear with me): Square wheels! As it rolls (assuming it would) you'd get alternating monster contact patches for ultimate flotation immediately followed by right angle corners for optimum propulsion. Yes, calculating the spoke lengths needed may be a bit of a challenge, and it would likely ride a bit rough, but since you'll be in deep powder, you'll probably never even notice.

    Glad I could help, thank me later.
    Mythbusters did an episode on square wheels. They even tried to climb a dirt hill with them, but concluded that they were no better than round wheels in that situation.

    MythBusters: Square Wheels Angle 2 : Video : Discovery Channel
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by FishMan473 View Post
    Hmm, I guess haters are gunna hate.

    While I think dmar's inspirations are a bit ambitious, I too wonder why there aren't more aggressive snow-specific tires on the market. I was out last week with Husker Du's on back and just spun out in a few places in loose snow. Sure I could lower the pressure, reverse the tire direction, or buy a Nate for a rear tire...

    Admittedly, the Nate is pretty close, but I think it could be a little more snow/sand specific, it still looks like its a compromise for use on dirt too, really the tread are no more deep or wide than my first snow tire, the Specialized More Extreme.

    <img src="https://www.bikepro.com/products/tires/tire_jpg/j2jj_more_ext_tread.jpg">

    Another thing I think is missing on fat bike tires are sipes. The Bud/Lou/Nates have a little crosshatching on top of the tread, but why not across the entire casing? Could give us a lot more traction on ice and slick snow.

    They use computer aided design for other other bicycle tires, would this be useful for snow tread?
    Wasn't hating, just kidding around. See the little smiley face? I actually admire dmar's creativity to try to solve a problem.

    The first tire manufactured specifically for fat...er, sand bikes (sorry Ray) had widely spaced chevrons and side knobs. Endomorphs were also molded along similar lines. Both are now obsolete, so go figure. As you mentioned, siping seems to work best on hard slippery surfaces like boat decks or ice, I doubt it does a whole lot in deep snow or sand but could add versatility.

    I think I read somewhere that the average human body can only generate around eight tenths of a horsepower so I'm a little bit skeptical of attempts to try to power large paddles, scoops, tracks, etc effectively and efficiently without the use of a motor. I've also experimented along those lines without much success so hopefully dmar will have better luck than I did.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drevil View Post
    Mythbusters did an episode on square wheels. They even tried to climb a dirt hill with them, but concluded that they were no better than round wheels in that situation.

    MythBusters: Square Wheels Angle 2 : Video : Discovery Channel
    Wait, you thought I was serious?

    Hmmm. Triangles?

  33. #33
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    1) Buy a walgoose
    2) Remove tires and tubes
    3) weld metal paddles directly to the rim
    4) ride

    Who needs rubber?
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  34. #34
    drev-il, not Dr. Evil!
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    Nope, but the episode was funny anyways
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    But you didn't use any duct tape!

  36. #36
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    Snow Paddle Tires, How Bout It

    Wildfire, what were those super old-school sand tires called? I remember the rims were called Remolite... Can't remember the names of the tires.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by FishMan473 View Post
    Wildfire, what were those super old-school sand tires called? I remember the rims were called Remolite... Can't remember the names of the tires.
    Remolinos. They were manufactured for early fat, er...sand bike innovator Ray Molina by Tornel in Mexico City in the 90's. 26 X 3.7". I still have a shed full of them if anyone has a vintage bike in need of new sneakers. Unfortunately, although they were wide, they were really low profile with not much volume and riding them at low pressures tended to destroy the sidewalls. Mikesee can tell you about nursing them all the way to Nome using dental floss.

    The next step was using Nokian Gazzaloddi DH tires and it was discovered that shaving down all the center knobs, leaving only the side knobs, made them ride a lot faster which is why it seems a bit strange to me to see the current trend in tires with all the tall knobs. Has anyone tried shaving the knobs off their Bud/Lous? Or would that be sacrilege?

  38. #38
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    I can't wait for NEXT winter now that the fat bike thing is being vomited all over social media... EVERYONE GET ONE!!!!!! Then come the threads... "hey... this isn't easy in the snow... I thought I could levitate over 3 feet of snow?"

    Also - all the "inspirational photos" - Those have MOTORS. The one that didn't had 3 wheels... so yes, you could go .5 mph and creep along using human power... but not on a bike. You have to balance!

    But yeah... I hope one of the fat bike tire manufactures makes this VERY niche tire... AND IT BETTER BE CHEAP TOO!!!!!!! RIGHT?

    JEESH.
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  39. #39
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    ^^ so right arm.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildfire View Post
    Remolinos. ....

    The next step was using Nokian Gazzaloddi DH tires and it was discovered that shaving down all the center knobs, leaving only the side knobs, made them ride a lot faster which is why it seems a bit strange to me to see the current trend in tires with all the tall knobs. Has anyone tried shaving the knobs off their Bud/Lous? Or would that be sacrilege?
    So the tires and the rims were called the Remolinos? Huh. Do you have any pictures of the tire tread? Its been a while, I'd be curious to see what they look like... from what I recall they were similar to the Enduromorph in tread pattern... or rather the other way around.

    I just got my fatbike last winter. Previous to that I was running SnowCat rims and I had WTB Timberwolf 2.7's in front which I had cut all the center tread off. Worked great.

    I am experimenting with my tires back and forth this year, but last year I was thinking about cutting the center tread off of my Escalator for my front tire. I figure I really just need the side knobs on the front for cornering, and that tire does have great side knobs.

    I figure the best combo for snow is a large round tire up front with agressive side knobs for cornering and low knobs/siping in the middle, and for the back, something based around large paddles for traction, with a more square profile for better float.

    Has anyone considered putting tread on the sidewalls of the tires like you can find on mud tires for trucks? I would think that would provide some additional traction in deep snow/sand (I mean not all the way down the side, just 1" or so) and maybe additional protection from sharp rocks?
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  41. #41
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    Around here (Iowa/Illinois) it seems that front wheel tracking is more of an issue than propulsion. You can stick a Nate on the back and have traction for days. I put a Nate on the front to keep it tracking straight where its off-camber. You'll just slide right down the side of the ravine unless you got big knobs to grab what snow you're packing down. I'm talking about super dry powder dust snow conditions here. Once the snow sublimates/melts to a point where you can make a snowball with it then you can pretty much get traction with any moderately knobby tire.
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