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  1. #101
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    Marketed as bike packing, but geo numbers don't lie. Looks playful and crisp to me. Frames gotta be a good pound plus lighter than the ICT.

    Did a snow ride today in hilly tech and rode in my 30 x 24 which is about the same as the DS 26 x 22. Felt like a pretty good all round gear ratio for hilly techy snowy. Would prolly spend more time in the 30 x 18 in summer dirt.

    rog

  2. #102
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    Salsa expansion. Blackborow

    I never really looked closely at this bike. Need to check it out.

    Are framesets available?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  3. #103
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    I built mine from a bare frame.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by racefit View Post
    It seems the Blackborrow is marketed as primarily a bike packing ride. Interesting then that you prefer it over the ICT which is often described as playful and lively.

    Are you selling an ICT frame or complete?
    The ICT rides awesome. It's bomber solid. The geo btwn the bikes is pretty similar, the HTA being the biggest diff but it's still a bit slacked vs. the PugI'm in between LG and MED, and have always hedged towards LG. The Blackborow is stiff and snappy, tracks great, the short rear rocks, power transfer feels good. As I said above it crawls over stuff easier in a way that I wasn't finding I could on the ICT. Maybe it was just a good day, but I reckon it's a combo of a lighter bike and shorter WB.

    Still really like the burly-traily ICT and I may try and scoop a med ICT frame if/when they start floating around used.

    I'm selling complete. Thought about a swap over of the ICT build or a frame up build but decided to just do the Blackborow1 with the 1xCinch. At first I was after the DS and I knew I'd most likely want to gear it for the rest of the winter. The DS availability was looking a bit sketchy up here. The BB1 is actually spec'd pretty nicely with a few Thomson bits and a decent saddle. Usually those are extras depending on who's wearing what in my fleet.

  5. #105
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    Is anyone planning to or already has run 29+ on one of these?

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    I think you called the shop I work at. I heard a story hauntingly familiar to this from our buyer today at work.

    Glad you tracked one down. I'd have to agree that this bike (and possibly the aluminum Beargrease) is the sleeper in the Salsa Cycles fat bike line right now. I am very pleased with my Blackborow DS so far.

    Congrats on scoring one.
    Funny you say that Ted, I'm sure it was me! Anyhow, I totally agree, If I wasn't set on having the ability to run 5" tires, the Alu Beargrease was my other favorite bike I tested at Freewheel's Fat Bike Demo.

    Btw, congrats on the Mountain Bike Radio Podcast spot you've now taken on, love the content...makes my morning commute much more enjoyable!

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by frozenmonkey View Post
    ...I also like to load it up with bags and beer and explore with my buds and the Blackborow ticks all the bikepacking boxes... but the Salsa rides really nice and the weight is definitely noticeable. Plus my LBS gave me ridiculous deal with a Oneup 1x conversion and RF Turbines rolled in.
    Exactly my thoughts too. Planning on 42T OneUp 1x10, with a RADr (on a Saint or Zee), and Microshift thumby.

  8. #108
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    Luuuv the microSHIFT I had on the Surlys. Thought about trolling for a takeoff but mine were all 2/3 x 9sp and so I'm thinking I might have to order a 10sp. Still love my old XT thumbies too. Can be a lot easier to deal with in heavy handwear if you ain't pogied up.

  9. #109
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    How's everyone else getting along with the LOU/LOU combo so far?

    Anyone wanting a bud up front to shed some rolling resistance and gain a little lateral traction or no?
    Today I will do what others won't, so tomorrow I can do what others can't

  10. #110
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    I don't mind the Lou/Lou so far, but this is my first fatbiking experience. I wouldn't mind giving one a try just to see if it made a big difference. I am looking for a good lightweight summer tire though.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtndude23 View Post
    I'm using the 190 spindle. I've thought about getting a 170 to try fitting though. To me, I think you might be able to get it to work if you flip the direct mount ring. But it will be a tight fit if it does work, or if it doesn't.
    Any chance you can put up a pic or have a measurement of the clearance you've got between the chainstay and the crank arm?

  12. #112
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    I just measured:

    NDS-19mm
    DS-6.5mm

  13. #113
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    Ok, mine's jacked out way more than it has to be then. 190mm spindle.
    Salsa expansion.    Blackborow-bb_ds_clearance.jpg
    Salsa expansion.    Blackborow-bb_nds_clearance.jpg

    Fug, I'm a total noob with this and all the Cinch crankset rigging threads just make it worse.

    It rides fine, wider Q factor doesn't really give me any trouble, but I don't want the Q out any further than it has to be. I mentioned the ICT spacer kit to the mechanic, but I had nothing else to add. He's an amazing wrench, just finished with mating Hollowgrams to the RF biz on his own 170mm bike. But the 190 vs 170mm spindle discussion, plus the non-availability of the ICT spacer kit, kinda bogged down any clear sense of the options with what was at hand. I def'ly don't have enough understanding to make clear what needs to be fixed with the spacers etc.

    I'll grab some pics of the spacer set up and post 'em up. Maybe somebody can see what's going on.

  14. #114
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    The Stowaway
    Salsa expansion.    Blackborow-stowaway2.jpg

    And now the spacing...???
    Salsa expansion.    Blackborow-ds_spacing.jpgSalsa expansion.    Blackborow-nds_spacing.jpg

    Those chunker spacers (2xNDS, 1XDS) measure ~5mm each.

    EDIT: Oh, and we'll give it one more good ride before a decision on where she falls in the pound-for-pound rankings, but this bike has G.O.A.T. potential written all over it. The 28T Oneup 1X setup is great, seems smooth and dialed, and the range surprised me on the low end. This morning offered a great range of 6 - 10 inches of drifted softer harder, hidden layers, with shelf-topped compaction that was kinda invisible hear and there (i dunno how do you describe it sometimes??!!). Almost OTB a couple of times with sudden pockets capped with meringue. So fun.

  15. #115
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    This might help you understand. Right now it looks like you have about 17mm on on one side and 12mm on the other, 29mm total clearance. the shorter spindle 20mm closer shorter, giving you 9mm to play with. depending on frame flex and chainring choice it may work.

    It could work on one but not another of presumably identical bikes. Sometimes the only way to know is to try.

    Quote Originally Posted by frozenmonkey View Post
    Ok, mine's jacked out way more than it has to be then. 190mm spindle.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Fug, I'm a total noob with this and all the Cinch crankset rigging threads just make it worse.

    It rides fine, wider Q factor doesn't really give me any trouble, but I don't want the Q out any further than it has to be. I mentioned the ICT spacer kit to the mechanic, but I had nothing else to add. He's an amazing wrench, just finished with mating Hollowgrams to the RF biz on his own 170mm bike. But the 190 vs 170mm spindle discussion, plus the non-availability of the ICT spacer kit, kinda bogged down any clear sense of the options with what was at hand. I def'ly don't have enough understanding to make clear what needs to be fixed with the spacers etc.

    I'll grab some pics of the spacer set up and post 'em up. Maybe somebody can see what's going on.
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  16. #116
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    But shouldn't I be able to match mtndude's clearance w/o going to the smaller spindle?

  17. #117
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    I will have to double check my number after work tonight. I'm running a 11.5 spacer on the nds and 4 mm on the ds. what is your chain line at?

  18. #118
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    Yours is more balanced, if you took the DS spacer and moved it to NDS you would be about the same as mtndude23.

    Quote Originally Posted by frozenmonkey View Post
    But shouldn't I be able to match mtndude's clearance w/o going to the smaller spindle?
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  19. #119
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    Looks like ~76-78mm

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoo View Post
    Yours is more balanced, if you took the DS spacer and moved it to NDS you would be about the same as mtndude23.
    Aaaaah. OK I get it now.

  21. #121
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    Took mine for a ride in 3-5" of powder, breaking trail. Wondering if moving wheel back with dropouts would improve snow handling at all? Gonna head out again in the morning and try a local single track. Hoping it will already be beaten down though.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by edved37 View Post
    Took mine for a ride in 3-5" of powder, breaking trail. Wondering if moving wheel back with dropouts would improve snow handling at all? Gonna head out again in the morning and try a local single track. Hoping it will already be beaten down though.
    and once it's beaten down try some 3.8's on 65mm rims

    vrooooom!!!

    rog

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by TitanofChaos View Post
    How's everyone else getting along with the LOU/LOU combo so far?

    Anyone wanting a bud up front to shed some rolling resistance and gain a little lateral traction or no?
    I had a Bud lined up ahead of my Blackborow DS coming in thinking I would either put it up front, or switch out both Lou tires for the Bud trade I got and another, new Bud.

    I rolled my bike around the shop immediately after building it up and any thoughts of wanting a Bud swap were lessened by the way I found the bike to roll. Then I rode it on trail and the traction was phenomenal. Then it snowed, and I was able to tractor through some deep stuff with the least amount of lateral movement I've ever experienced.

    No way I'll be swapping for Buds anytime soon now. If all I rode were packed in trails, heck, I wouldn't even use a Blackborow with 4.8's and 100mm rims. What would be the point in that? I'd just use my Rolling Darryls and narrower, lighter rubber then.
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  24. #124
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    The color of the DS drives me nuts. If I were a salsa dealer I'd buy one just for the color. If I was ready to part with me beloved charge, that is.

    rog

  25. #125
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    So I rechecked my numbers, in my haste before work yesterday I read my calipers upside down.

    I've got 9.5mm on the DS, not 6.5. So both of our's are very close overall.

  26. #126
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    How about your chainline?

  27. #127
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    It's at 76mm.

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    The color of the DS drives me nuts. If I were a salsa dealer I'd buy one just for the color. If I was ready to part with me beloved charge, that is.

    rog
    This is part of the reason I bought the DS even though it's now set up 2x10, next to the wife's light blue farley they look like easter eggs though :\
    Today I will do what others won't, so tomorrow I can do what others can't

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by TitanofChaos View Post
    This is part of the reason I bought the DS even though it's now set up 2x10, next to the wife's light blue farley they look like easter eggs though :\
    ugh. having been a singlespeed guy for a majority of the last 15 years, the ds setup is intriguing...........on top of the color.........ahhhhhhhhh!

    i don't even care that it comes with 4.8's and 100's.

    rog

  30. #130
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    Salsa expansion. Blackborow

    Fwiw- I have put up my Salsa Blackborow DS up for sale on CL in the SF bay area. The bike is awesome, I just don't have the fitness anymore to push a single speed. The Beargrease gets most of my time since it's geared.












    Mods, if this is against the rules. Sorry

  31. #131
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    Took mine out again today in 4-6" fluff, with some already broken trail and Iced over bike path. Once I figured out my rider position and stayed on the small line that was already beaten down I was ripping on this thing. Buddy that was with was on his ICT.Salsa expansion.    Blackborow-photo-2-.jpg

  32. #132
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    I'm a bit jealous, I haven't had much snow to try mine out in yet.

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by edved37 View Post
    Took mine out again today in 4-6" fluff, with some already broken trail and Iced over bike path. Once I figured out my rider position and stayed on the small line that was already beaten down I was ripping on this thing. Buddy that was with was on his ICT.Click image for larger version. 

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    Have you tried the Ice-cream Truck? How does it compare with your Blackborrow? I'm considering upgrading from my Moonlander to one of these two.

  34. #134
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    Hi Guys! Little sizing question: I'm 6'2" (inseam 35") Large or X-Large? It seems I'm right in-between sizes with every Salsa model…

    Also, any idea what is the weight of the frame?

  35. #135
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    I did ride his ICT, its an XL and my BB is a large, but it doesn't feel too huge. Hes got jones bars on it, which are different but I like them. Would be best to tell after hitting some single track, but I haven't had a chance to ride the ICT on it yet. He seems to like it a ton.

  36. #136
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    thanks for your input

  37. #137
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    I'm 6' with a 32" inseam, and my Mukluk is a large. The Blackborow is supposed to have an even lower standover than the Mukluk does, so I would think that you'd probably be better off with an XL based purely on my own experience with the Mukluk. I was kind of like you, on the fence between sizes (M or L) based on what I had read, and the bigger size proved to be the better option for me. Hopefully this helps.

  38. #138
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    Salsa expansion. Blackborow

    Yes, I agree. I'm 5'10" with a 32" inseam and am right in the middle as far as M/L. I went with the medium and wish I would've gone with a large.

    On a Blackborow they seem to run even smaller? I definitely need a large and I was any taller 6'/or taller, I'd go for the XL. Hope this helps.

  39. #139
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    I'm 5'11" with a 32" inseam and rode both M/L. Large was much more comfortable to me and feels like a perfect size.

  40. #140
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    I finally got one about a week ago. I've ridden it every day since. Love it!

    If it helps anyone out, I'm 5'9", 32" inseam, I got a large and glad I did. I tested a medium because that's what I usually ride, and according to the ETT length, what I should ride, but the medium felt very short after 2 min and warmed up. I hopped on a large, and it fit like a glove.

  41. #141
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    I just rode my DS in the Triple D winter race for 63 miles on sunday and it worked great. The Lou/Lou are a great combo on this bike, they grab like crazy but still roll nice as well. Wouldn't change a thing!

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkoskinen View Post
    I just rode my DS in the Triple D winter race for 63 miles on sunday and it worked great. The Lou/Lou are a great combo on this bike, they grab like crazy but still roll nice as well. Wouldn't change a thing!
    I saw your bike in some of the pictures from the event's beginning.

    Did you run stock gearing? If so, how was it on the climbs?
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  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    I saw your bike in some of the pictures from the event's beginning.

    Did you run stock gearing? If so, how was it on the climbs?
    Mark,

    Yes, I did run the stock gearing and overall it was pretty much spot on for a balance of climbing and spinning. There was a hand full of hills i really wish the gearing was lower but i wouldn't have wanted to have less gear on the flats, when i got tired i just walked it. I didn't switch over to the high range until i was coming back from Dyersville due to the mud on heritage. BTW your review is what pushed my into purchasing the bike, my Mukluk is now dead to me!

    Hope you have a Happy Birthday!

    Mike

  44. #144
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    Salsa expansion. Blackborow

    These are nice bikes. I wish they made a steel or ti version.

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    These are nice bikes. I wish they made a steel or ti version.
    carbon is coming for next year
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  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    These are nice bikes. I wish they made a steel or ti version.
    Ti maybe, but Salsa will never make a Steel bike, that is what Surly is for.
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  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by TitanofChaos View Post
    carbon is coming for next year
    Do tell!

    Will it keep the adjustable dropouts?

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by majack View Post
    Ti maybe, but Salsa will never make a Steel bike, that is what Surly is for.
    huh? salsa has always and will continue to produce steel bikes.

    rog

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by majack View Post
    Ti maybe, but Salsa will never make a Steel bike, that is what Surly is for.
    They sure did make steel bikes...looksee...

    Salsa Cycles

    The El Mariachi is the 29er hardtail for slaying singletrack or getting your bikepacking trips on. Simple, comfortable and efficient, the frame features Alternator Dropouts that make the El Mariachi an even more versatile bike. Thru-axle, geared, singlespeed, fender mount or Rohloff dropout plates are all options should the spirit move you. The Alternator Dropouts also help you create a bailout gear for those SOL situations deep in the backcountry.

    Titanium and steel models are available.
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  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by NH Mtbiker View Post
    They sure did make steel bikes...looksee...

    Salsa Cycles

    The El Mariachi is the 29er hardtail for slaying singletrack or getting your bikepacking trips on. Simple, comfortable and efficient, the frame features Alternator Dropouts that make the El Mariachi an even more versatile bike. Thru-axle, geared, singlespeed, fender mount or Rohloff dropout plates are all options should the spirit move you. The Alternator Dropouts also help you create a bailout gear for those SOL situations deep in the backcountry.

    Titanium and steel models are available.
    I stand corrected. Thanks for the correction.
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    The vaya also comes in a steel version.

  52. #152
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    I have a steel Vaya for my summer/road/gravel bike. Anyone have any summer plans for their BB's. Was thinking of getting a 65mm rim and 4" tires or doing a 29+ setup. Also anybody have a bluto up front yet?

  53. #153
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    65's and 4's on the ds would be sick! better than boaty 29+ any day.

    rog

  54. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    65's and 4's on the ds would be sick! better than boaty 29+ any day.
    This ^^^.

    'Boaty'...teehee...yer funny Rog.

    My spring formula = Marge Lites + 3.8 Knards + 142 convertible hub.

    This bike handles so well as is, like seriously...I'm stoked to see what 65s are gonna feel like, esp with the big meats. I've always run Holy Darryls and CS, and 50mm on the Kramplus.

  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkoskinen View Post
    Mark,

    Yes, I did run the stock gearing and overall it was pretty much spot on for a balance of climbing and spinning. There was a hand full of hills i really wish the gearing was lower but i wouldn't have wanted to have less gear on the flats, when i got tired i just walked it. I didn't switch over to the high range until i was coming back from Dyersville due to the mud on heritage. BTW your review is what pushed my into purchasing the bike, my Mukluk is now dead to me!

    Hope you have a Happy Birthday!

    Mike
    Thanks Mike.

    I know some of those steeps are walking bits no matter what gearing you might have. Anyway, good to hear that the stock gearing worked okay for you.

    I'm glad that you are liking the BB DS. Funny you should mention the Muk being "dead to you". I thought I'd never sell my Ti Muk, but now I think it is going on the chopping block. I'm not sure I'd ever use it as a fat bike any more after having the Blackborow.

    I am hopeful a deal will work out where the shop where I work sells the '15 Muk Ti we have with a carbon fork. That white Bluto would make for a fine looking Summertime suspension option! I may even look at putting 29+ wheels on this one as well. I think that for Summer it would really rip. If all of these things happen- fork + 29+ wheel set- then I really have a hard time justifying a lot of other bikes I have including the Ti Muk.
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  56. #156
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    Rear Rack Option

    I've been jonesin' pretty bad for a Blackborow but don't really have any business buying one. So last week my a-hole buddy Dave, aka RockyRider, drives down to the anuual fatbike hang in Winthrop, WA and spots a Blackborow at Methow Cycle & Sport in guess what? My size. He texts me a pic. Did I mention he's an a-hole. He has a much fancier name for himself, like "enabler" or some such BS.

    At any rate, all self control goes in the toilet at this point and I'm in my truck early the next morning, headed down to pick up my new bike. I got a short ride in with the crew that afternoon, and I am super jacked on this bike. For a 190/150 bike with that huge set of meats and rims, it rides incredibly light and playful. I'm gonna get out on it this weekend for a few hours and can't wait.

    In the meantime, long days at work and shitty riding conditions have meant no riding during this past week, so I thought I'd spend some time putting together a rear rack solution. I'm not a hardcore rack freak or anything, but there are certain times when they are super useful and can also double as a rear fender, so I want one around that I can quickly bolt on when I need it.

    So this is where I run into the first thing about this bike that is really odd, and moderately annoying: For what it is marketed as - an adventuring bike - you'd think it would be full of attachment points for racks. Nope. No bosses on the seat stays, no drilled and tapped holes in the dropout. No hole through the fork bridge. No bosses in the fork, other than those for the anything cage. Whaa??

    My *interpretation* of this, is that Salsa want you to buy their specific hardware and bags and cages for this bike. Which is kinda lame. Pugsleys have about a thousand braze-ons all over everywhere, which is rad, for do-it-yourselfers and people who like to make their bikes uniquely their own.

    The other thing I think is strange about a bike that is intended to be loaded up with gear a ridden through all manner of backcountry is that it is spec'd with 160mm rotors. I have gotten my fatbike rotors just scorching hot to the point of warping them on loaded bikepacking trips during long, steep, descents, and it doesnt' make any sense that Salsa would cut corners on that aspect of this bike.

    Anyways, this is not a rant, just a couple of things I would change if I had my way.

    All in all, I'm thrilled with the bike so far.

    So I thought I'd post up something about the direction I went with the rack, in case it is of use to any other Blackborownians out there.

    The first thing Salsa wants you to do if you want a rear rack is to buy their rack-lock seat clamp, which I did. This gives you an attachment point for the front stays. I shopped around a bit and ended up getting one from Tree Fort, for about $30, delivered.

    Here's the stock clamp . . .

    Attachment 958081

    And here's the rack lock . . .

    Attachment 958082

    For a rack, Salsa wants you to use their 190mm Alternator Rack. Aside from the fact that it doesn't seem to be available yet from e-tailers, I don't really like it, aesthetically, and it's too expensive (I'm assuming it will be around $120, like the 170mm version).

    Everyone has their preferences on style, but I really like the Sunlite Gold Tec Disc Rack, which people have talked about on this forum and which I used on my previous 190mm rear fatbike, so I know it's wide enough. My closest LBS has them in stock for $30. Pow!

    Here it 'tis . . .

    Attachment 958083

    Here's the spacer on the bottom of the rack that's supposed to clear the disc caliper and mount to the dropout. It needs to come off for this application . . .

    Attachment 958084

    Attachment 958085

    The design provides for adjustability, but I will only use it in the full-on
    retracted position, so I cut the rest off. Every little bit helps with keeping the weight down . . .

    Attachment 958086

    Attachment 958087

    So the attachment point for the Alternator Rack (I looked at the online installation instructions) is that recessed screw screw just above the QR lever that fixes the frame to the alternatore dropout. Yeah, nice.

    Attachment 958088

    Apparently, the alternator rack comes with the a hardware kit that has the spacers and longer screws that you need, but I would have to figure that out for my specific application. I took some measurement with calipers and headed to the hardware store. What they had available was a nylon spacer, which will work for now. I found the right spacers in aluminum on ebay for a few bucks and they are on the way and will be the permanent solution.

    Salsa expansion.    Blackborow-20150123_09.jpg

    This tab for mounting a light rubs on the tire, so it had to be cut off . . .

    Salsa expansion.    Blackborow-20150123_10.jpg

    This is the underside of the rack, showing the seat stay arrangement, which looks really similar to the arrangement of the alternator rack stays to me. Once I got it set to the right place, I hacked off the excess stay length, to clean it up and save a little more weight . . .

    Salsa expansion.    Blackborow-20150123_11.jpg

    All up, it came out to 820g, which is not too far off the alternator's advertised weight of 765 . . .

    Salsa expansion.    Blackborow-20150123_12.jpg

    I mounted a light to the rear of the rack, thus . . .

    Salsa expansion.    Blackborow-20150123_13.jpg

    Here's how the front stays and rack lock clamp work out . . .

    Salsa expansion.    Blackborow-20150123_14.jpg

    I sanded and rattle-canned all the plated bits to give it a more uniform look . . .

    Salsa expansion.    Blackborow-20150123_15.jpg

    Salsa expansion.    Blackborow-20150123_16.jpg

    It feels really solid and oughta be a good functional rack.

    Well this has turned into a damn novel. Sorry 'bout that. I'm done now. Maybe an actual ride report would be rather awesome, stay tuned.
    Last edited by spovegas; 01-24-2015 at 01:39 AM.

  57. #157
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    Problemo solved. Awesome job and on tha cheap to boot!!

    You're gonna love your new earthcrawler...

    I had some good laughs last weekend at the toboggan hill w/ my daughter...the steep little hill in the local park was sooper slick, kids could barely walk back up...me on my BB and D5s tho...HA!!! I was racing the kids and could make it up and down twice to their once while hitting these great little kickers the kids built for their sleds. I was getting stupid air and had them all laughing hard. Bluebird day and silly fun with a bunch of kids on a hill. No trails, but honestly, one of the best times I've ever had on a bike. And it was a pure fatty moment. The front stayed put perfectly on the climbs and I had the proverbial 'h*ly sh*t' grinning and laughing realization that I'm climbing something no other bike could. Can't beat it.

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    That's funny I have been looking at 29 + wheel sets over the last few days thinking the same thing for summer. 29+ on that bike will push my Epic 29er out the door to greener pastures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mkoskinen View Post
    That's funny I have been looking at 29 + wheel sets over the last few days thinking the same thing for summer. 29+ on that bike will push my Epic 29er out the door to greener pastures.
    3.8's on 65's are more nimble than my regular 29er.

    rog

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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    3.8's on 65's are more nimble than my regular 29er.
    This is what I'm afraid of, esp. on this lighter bike.

    My Krampus may just end up on the block to help pay for the new wheelset.

  61. #161
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    It amazes me how Salsa actively eliminates ways to carry things on bikes made to carry things.

    My Vaya Travel has the same stupid 'alternator rack' attachment, which would be OK if the rack weren't 1.5x the weight of a Tubus while having only half the carrying capacity. Even with that, it STILL sits way up over the rear wheel, putting rear panniers too high.

    Hell, you have to buy rear FENDER attachments as separate alternator dropouts. Yes, that's right, the Vaya Travel did not have the ability to use a rear fender out of the box.

    What the heck are they thinking?!?

  62. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    3.8's on 65's are more nimble than my regular 29er.

    rog

    But neither of those is 29+

    That said, 3.8"ers on 65's will lower the bottom bracket some on a Blackborow DS. Not that this is bad or good, but it is something to watch for.

    29+ will change that dimension very little on a Blackborow.
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  63. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnee View Post
    It amazes me how Salsa actively eliminates ways to carry things on bikes made to carry things. .........................
    What the heck are they thinking?!?
    Yeah, I get that for the rack and pannier crowd. I've noticed these things as well.

    I am not making excuses for Salsa, but I've been down the rack and pannier/traditional bag route and I like the frame bag arrangement much better. From that standpoint, I've no complaints at all with the Blackborow.
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  64. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    Yeah, I get that for the rack and pannier crowd. I've noticed these things as well.

    I am not making excuses for Salsa, but I've been down the rack and pannier/traditional bag route and I like the frame bag arrangement much better. From that standpoint, I've no complaints at all with the Blackborow.
    The "rack and pannier" crowd? I appreciate your attempt at smug condescension, but I don't feel inferior. At all.

    For the record, my bikepacking setup will be mostly soft packs, including a Salsa frame bag, if they ever offer one for the Blackborow. That said, there are still times when I want to be able to bolt on a rear rack, and I offer no apologies. Maybe someday I will even want to hang some sort of pannier off of it. [Gasp!]

    My problem has to do with a bike brand trying to strong-arming its customers into using its, and and only its, specific, overpriced, luggage.

    I don't think it's expecting too much for a brand to provide a few attachment points that are have been pretty much industry standard for years, so that people have options to utilize gear variations that may work better for them.

    Glad you like the kool-aid so much. Tastes kinda funny to me.

  65. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    Yeah, I get that for the rack and pannier crowd. I've noticed these things as well.

    I am not making excuses for Salsa, but I've been down the rack and pannier/traditional bag route and I like the frame bag arrangement much better. From that standpoint, I've no complaints at all with the Blackborow.
    What if you want to do a long tour in the winter, and aren't sleeping on the ground under the open sky on a tiny roll of bubble wrap? The bike packing thing is great if you love absolute minimalism (and best in warm weather), but speaking as a tall Clyde who needs a bit more comfort for sleeping and two full changes in clothing because of prodigious sweat, there is no way in hell I can do a sustained tour in mixed weather with only a bike packing setup. I tried, and I had to start credit-card touring because I literally did not have enough storage.

    It's four tiny little braze-ons. Six if you add fenders. Salsa chose aesthetics over function in a realm where function is king.

    I mean, they shipped the Salsa Vaya Travel - a hard-core touring bike - without the ability to use fenders. WTF. If I'd have known they were that dumb I'd have bought another bike.

    Anyway, you are one of the 'good guys' here, are not the target of my wrath, and I'm derailing the thread. I'll leave it at that.

  66. #166
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    Sheesh! Folks are a little prickly here when it comes to racks and panniers I see. Well, be that as it may, know that I have nothing at all against folk who roll that way. Nothing at all.

    If you look again at what I wrote, I actually said that I get why you are upset. I get it. If I used racks and panniers, I'd be upset too.

    Hope that came through this time.

    That said, I would have no problem at all being self-sufficient on a tour using only frame bags. And by the way, I wouldn't wait one second for Salsa/Revelate offerings to show up. There are plenty of bag makers out there that could/can satisfy that itch as well as or better than Revelate can via Salsa.

    But again, many of you don't roll that way. Fine. Salsa isn't doing a good job for you folks that like racks. I agree with that. It just isn't an issue for my style.

    Hope that clears that up.
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  67. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    Sheesh! Folks are a little prickly here when it comes to racks and panniers I see. Well, be that as it may, know that I have nothing at all against folk who roll that way. Nothing at all..
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  68. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    But neither of those is 29+
    ya, 29+ even less nimble.

    That said, 3.8"ers on 65's will lower the bottom bracket some on a Blackborow DS. Not that this is bad or good, but it is something to watch for.
    you sure about that? narrower rims like a 65 make tires taller than if they were on 80's or 100's. would a 4.8 on a 100 really be much taller to make much difference? you got numbers to compare?


    dig your blog

    rog

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    http://surlybikes.com//uploads/downl...Geometries.pdf

    Bud is quoted at 762mm diameter on any size rim. Nate is quoted at 749mm on any size rim.

  70. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattgVT View Post
    http://surlybikes.com//uploads/downl...Geometries.pdf

    Bud is quoted at 762mm diameter on any size rim. Nate is quoted at 749mm on any size rim.
    thank you. how does that translate to height vs width. sorry math ain't my game.

    rog

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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    thank you. how does that translate to height vs width. sorry math ain't my game.

    rog
    It's saying that on a rim of size 65/80/100mm the nate will be 749mm tall, while a bud on the same size rims will be 762mm, or 13mm taller. Roughly 1/2" taller, while being 112/116/118 on 65/80/100mm rims, with the nate being 99/101/103mm on the same rims.

    In other words, rim width does not affect the height of the tire. Rim width does affect the width of the tire.

  72. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattgVT View Post
    It's saying that on a rim of size 65/80/100mm the nate will be 749mm tall, while a bud on the same size rims will be 762mm, or 13mm taller. Roughly 1/2" taller, while being 112/116/118 on 65/80/100mm rims, with the nate being 99/101/103mm on the same rims.

    In other words, rim width does not affect the height of the tire. Rim width does affect the width of the tire.
    Impossible. My bb is higher with my 3.8's on 65's than when I had them on 80's.

    rog

  73. #173
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    And...here we go down the proverbial Rabbit Hole...


    Oh fug, I'm on fire.

  74. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    you sure about that? narrower rims like a 65 make tires taller than if they were on 80's or 100's. would a 4.8 on a 100 really be much taller to make much difference? you got numbers to compare?
    Lou on a 100, left. Nate on a 65, right. I put a level across the top of the big one and measured down to the top of the little one and it was just over an inch, so let's say 26mm. Half of that is your BB drop, so 13mm.

    Salsa expansion.    Blackborow-img_1975.jpg

    Salsa expansion.    Blackborow-img_1976.jpg

    I'm sure you'll want to argue with me, as you have the idea pretty well set in your mind that the tire/rim combos are the same height, so go crazy.

  75. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattgVT View Post
    http://surlybikes.com//uploads/downl...Geometries.pdf

    Bud is quoted at 762mm diameter on any size rim. Nate is quoted at 749mm on any size rim.
    I don't think I would take those diameters as gospel. First I think they did themselves a disservice by putting the .0 on all of their measurements. This implies an accuracy that is obviously not there, as everyone of the measurements come out to exactly .0. And then when you look at their later tires, the ones that are not 26", those do have different diameters with different rim widths. I don't think that they thought to measure the diameter when they originally measured the tires. They either made up a number afterwards or just measured the tire on one rim width. Both the radius at Knob Shoulder Width and Max Casing Width changed for different rim widths, to think that that would happen and the diameter wouldn't change seems far-fetched.

  76. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Welnic View Post
    I don't think I would take those diameters as gospel. First I think they did themselves a disservice by putting the .0 on all of their measurements. This implies an accuracy that is obviously not there, as everyone of the measurements come out to exactly .0. And then when you look at their later tires, the ones that are not 26", those do have different diameters with different rim widths. I don't think that they thought to measure the diameter when they originally measured the tires. They either made up a number afterwards or just measured the tire on one rim width. Both the radius at Knob Shoulder Width and Max Casing Width changed for different rim widths, to think that that would happen and the diameter wouldn't change seems far-fetched.
    Agreed.

    rog

  77. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    Impossible. My bb is higher with my 3.8's on 65's than when I had them on 80's.

    rog
    3.8s on 65s should be higher than 3.8s on 80s

    But 4.8s (bud, lou) on 65s or 80s or 100s should be higher than any 3.8s on any rim, no? Its a 5" tire vs. a 4" tire on the same diameter rim...

  78. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmike View Post
    3.8s on 65s should be higher than 3.8s on 80s

    But 4.8s (bud, lou) on 65s or 80s or 100s should be higher than any 3.8s on any rim, no? Its a 5" tire vs. a 4" tire on the same diameter rim...
    Yes but that's not my point. My point is is that if you go from 4.8's on 100's to 3.8's on 65's wouldn't the height be pretty similar? It's obvious that a 4.8 would be taller on a 65 than a 3.8.

    rog

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    Re: Salsa expansion. BlackborowSalsa expansion. Blackborow

    I've been curious about tire diameter as well. If the diameter were to change with rim width, that means the circumference is changing and thus the overall length. In other words, a change in diameter means the tire is stretching or squishing along its length (which is really tight) based only on the force exerted on the sidewalls (which are really floppy). And that's what it boils down to. It's difficult to stretch the rubber but super easy to bend a sidewall. So I think the same tire would have the same height on different width rims.

    Of course I'd change my view if someone has a pic of two nates with different heights on 80 and 65 mm rims side by side.

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    Salsa states, on their website, that the 4.8 on a 100 is about the same diameter as a 29+ wheel/tire combo, and therefore they say the Blackborow should work with 29+ because the geometry will stay the same. That being said, I have a 29+ wheelset for my Mukluk, and I'm currently running 3.8s on 65s, and there is no way the 3.8s are close to the 29+ in diameter, ride height, etc. ...

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    Gotta be honest kinda regretting my ICT frame purchase instead of the Blackborrow, but after seeing it's it missing the usual attachment points I made the right choice.

  82. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2whl-hoop View Post
    Salsa states, on their website, that the 4.8 on a 100 is about the same diameter as a 29+ wheel/tire combo, and therefore they say the Blackborow should work with 29+ because the geometry will stay the same. That being said, I have a 29+ wheelset for my Mukluk, and I'm currently running 3.8s on 65s, and there is no way the 3.8s are close to the 29+ in diameter, ride height, etc. ...
    My Krampus sits and inch higher than my Pugsley. Krampus is Knards on rabbit hole. Pugsley is Nates on large marge (old school).

  83. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2whl-hoop View Post
    Salsa states, on their website, that the 4.8 on a 100 is about the same diameter as a 29+ wheel/tire combo, and therefore they say the Blackborow should work with 29+ because the geometry will stay the same. That being said, I have a 29+ wheelset for my Mukluk, and I'm currently running 3.8s on 65s, and there is no way the 3.8s are close to the 29+ in diameter, ride height, etc. ...
    but is salsa correct? "ABOUT". what's that about? i don't care about 29+. 29 anything is sooooooooooo 2004.

    rog

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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    Yes but that's not my point. My point is is that if you go from 4.8's on 100's to 3.8's on 65's wouldn't the height be pretty similar

    rog
    No.

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    How difficult/easy it is to go from a DS setup to 1x10 or 1x11? Is it possible to use the same hub? I'm guessing you need another crank?

    I've seen on a Europeen site that the frame is selling with the bearpaw fork and hubs. Is it the same in North-America?

    I've been looking for a 5" Fatbike and the Blackborow could be the one… Really like the specs of the geared model but haven't check availability yet...

  86. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2whl-hoop View Post
    No.
    Prove it.

    rog

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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    Prove it.

    rog
    spovegas already did.

    Lou on a 100, left. Nate on a 65, right. I put a level across the top of the big one and measured down to the top of the little one and it was just over an inch, so let's say 26mm. Half of that is your BB drop, so 13mm.

  88. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by LewisQC View Post
    How difficult/easy it is to go from a DS setup to 1x10 or 1x11? Is it possible to use the same hub? I'm guessing you need another crank?

    I've seen on a Europeen site that the frame is selling with the bearpaw fork and hubs. Is it the same in North-America?

    I've been looking for a 5" Fatbike and the Blackborow could be the one… Really like the specs of the geared model but haven't check availability yet...
    I think you'd need a different chainring, but the crank should be fine for 9/10/11 speed setup. Surly stainless rings don't play well with 10 speed chains, ime.

    Then shifters, cables, derailleurs, cassette.

    That's probably the way to go - you can get a whole 1x10 speed setup for way less than the $500 difference between the Blackborow 1 and DS model, then have both.

    I kinda feel like it's a bit overpriced, but it is the most interesting of the 5" bikes outside of custom.

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    I'm pretty sure you would need to buy a new set of alternator drop outs for the geared switch. I don't think the DS has the rear derailleur attachment.

    I could be wrong though.

  90. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmike View Post
    spovegas already did.
    Missed that , thank you!

    rog

  91. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattgVT View Post
    I think you'd need a different chainring, but the crank should be fine for 9/10/11 speed setup. Surly stainless rings don't play well with 10 speed chains, ime.

    Then shifters, cables, derailleurs, cassette.

    That's probably the way to go - you can get a whole 1x10 speed setup for way less than the $500 difference between the Blackborow 1 and DS model, then have both.

    I kinda feel like it's a bit overpriced, but it is the most interesting of the 5" bikes outside of custom.
    you need a new outer OD chainring, non stainless, the existing outer ring is too wide for 10 speed chain, surly inner rings are all the same (narrow enough for any chain)

    with the pile of parts ready to go I was ready to roll in less than 2 hours
    Today I will do what others won't, so tomorrow I can do what others can't

  92. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by TitanofChaos View Post
    you need a new outer OD chainring, non stainless, the existing outer ring is too wide for 10 speed chain, surly inner rings are all the same (narrow enough for any chain)

    with the pile of parts ready to go I was ready to roll in less than 2 hours
    Thanks… I've checked with my LBS. Blackborow XL is not available at the moment. They're supposed to be available next week, hopefully my LBS will be able to get one for me. Still not sure about DS or geared. I really like the color of the DS… For sure I wouldn't be able to ride all my trail here on a 26-22...

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    You only have to buy the right hand side. The left side alternator dropout is the same. So it's only roughly a $20-30 investment.

  94. #194
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    this dinglespeed blackboro has really got me thinking/dreaming.
    its the first fat bike i'm seriously considering. i really like it.
    still loving my jones with a fat front but reckon i 'need' a cold season specific bike after toiling a bit a few times this winter. rethinking my 'one bike mantra'.

  95. #195
    mtbr member
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    It is never a bad idea to have options. The only down side is sometimes, you realize you wish you were on a different bike during a certain ride.

  96. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    ...you sure about that? narrower rims like a 65 make tires taller than if they were on 80's or 100's. would a 4.8 on a 100 really be much taller to make much difference? you got numbers to compare?
    Quote Originally Posted by bmike View Post
    3.8s on 65s should be higher than 3.8s on 80s...
    Same tire on wider rims will be wider AND taller. It will only get shorter if the rim width exceeds the tire width.

  97. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2:01 View Post
    Same tire on wider rims will be wider AND taller. It will only get shorter if the rim width exceeds the tire width.
    Nope. My 3.8 are definitely taller on my 65's vs my 80's.

    rog

  98. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    Nope. My 3.8 are definitely taller on my 65's vs my 80's.

    rog
    Say what you will, but IF the tires are the same size, that is physically impossible (pertaining to bicycle tires, which have a circular shape).

  99. #199
    mtbr member
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    Hi Blackborow owners! Any recent opinion/rider input/review about the Blackborow?

    I've been able to find availability for a XL Blackborow 1 with my lbs. Since it would be mainly a winter bike (Intense Spider Comp for summer riding) and I'm 200 pounds gear-up, I was thinking 100mm rim and big tire is the way to go. After reading too much internet thread I'm doubting a bit about this decision… How this big tire/rim combo would work for the occasional spring/fall ride? I'm riding alone most of the time (don't have to keep up with fast friends!), technical rocky/rooty trail and more fund about clearing a technical "problem" than beating a PB on a flowy trail…

    Just want to be sure that I will be able to ride the bike for a while like this before getting a second wheel set (won't fit in the budget for this year…). What I like about the bike: 197mm/150mm spacing, Thru-axle, short CS, already on big rim/tire so I don't have to pay 300$ more for 4.8 tire, available with my lbs for service, rather buy a bike now cause with can$ going down prices should go up next year, fun factor (priority for this bike) seems high on every review have read…

    Thanks for any additional input, just getting cold feet a bit with that kind of money for a second mtb...

  100. #200
    Lord Thunderbottom
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    If there's a 5" bike that is good for summer riding, the blackborow is it, very nimble compared to the other 5" bikes I've ridden (907, borealis, moonlander)
    Today I will do what others won't, so tomorrow I can do what others can't

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