Salsa Blackborrow vs Surly ICT- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Salsa Blackborrow vs Surly ICT

    I posted previous thread on Fat Boy vs ICT. After reading some good banter I also started looking at Salsa. Thus this current thread. I hope to get some good talk going and I appreciate the participation. I hope I'm not annoying too many ;-) Thanks.

    So, the Blackborrow 1 seems like a really sweet ride on a wide platform. I guess it's again alu vs steel. The ICT is symetrical and I'm not sure if the Blackborrow is too.

    Weight wise it's 33 vs 37 lbs give and take.

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    surely go surly.

    rog

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    :-) sure thing Rog. :-)

    of course neither can be test ridden at my LBS right now ... yet. I'm trying to consider brands that my LBS carries but besides a couple old models they don't have anything else in stock yet. Let's hope they get some stuff in.

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    They're both symmetrical 190mm rear ends. Surly has 150mm front, not sure what the Salsa has up front. Also not quite sure about the BB on the Salsa, but the Surly has a internal BB. Geometry numbers different too...
    I had pre-ordered an ICT before the Salsa was announced, but I'd have to think hard if I hadn't done so. Not that weight matters much, but the relative corrosion resistance of aluminum appeals to me.
    I'm stoked on the ICT, but the Blackborow looks like a great option too.

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    the colour (canadia spelling attemp) is important, so that dinglespeed blackborrow thingy has a lot going for it too. but it ain't steel.

    rog

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by willapajames View Post
    They're both symmetrical 190mm rear ends. Surly has 150mm front, not sure what the Salsa has up front. Also not quite sure about the BB on the Salsa, but the Surly has a internal BB. Geometry numbers different too...
    I had pre-ordered an ICT before the Salsa was announced, but I'd have to think hard if I hadn't done so. Not that weight matters much, but the relative corrosion resistance of aluminum appeals to me.
    I'm stoked on the ICT, but the Blackborow looks like a great option too.
    Blackborow 1 | Bikes | Salsa Cycles

    - Blackborow has 150mm front too
    - Blackborow has PressFit 41 132mm Offset Bottom Bracket

    Take this for what it's worth, as someone who doesn't have a fatbike yet, but I have a Blackborow on order, mainly due to the ICT seeming to be more focused on downhill geo, and the BB a bit more typical MTB, has the fork braze-ons for some cargo cages, and should handle bike packing better.

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    I'm not at all worried that the ICT does/doesn't have braze-ons on the fork. I would never carry gear attached to my fork anyway. Plus, I'd rather have a bike that has a geometry NOT designed around bike-packing, since most (90% or more) of the time I'll be riding it will NOT be with a load. And bikepacking with my other bikes NOT designed for it has been plenty of fun and hasn't held me back.
    I chose the ICT mostly because I wanted the fattest setup I could get, with the ability to adapt down the road if needed (Blackborow does this too). I'm a long time fan of steel, and it's ability to be re-welded and repaired has kept my other Surly (a cross-check) on the road for many years. And I don't care if it's heavier. I'm a big dude, so worrying about a couple pounds doesn't matter to me.

  8. #8
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    I have Blackborow DS on order. I looked at the ICT, and it seems pretty good, but there are a few, admittedly minute, differences that would make the Blackborow a winner in this comparison for me.

    -3mm lower BB
    -Shorter wheel base/shorter chain stay measurements
    -Better standover
    -Alternator drop outs

    Like I say, small differences to be sure, and both are likely great bikes. My intention for the Blackborow DS is for use in bad weather Winter commutes, bushwhacking, and riding in deep snow/mud/sand where the flotation factor matters most. I have two other fat bikes for "other" stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnee View Post
    Take this for what it's worth, as someone who doesn't have a fatbike yet, but I have a Blackborow on order, mainly due to the ICT seeming to be more focused on downhill geo, and the BB a bit more typical MTB, has the fork braze-ons for some cargo cages, and should handle bike packing better.
    I use a Krampus as my bikepacking rig and it's excellent. Simliar geo to ICT. I just put on a longer fork to get an even slacker front end which moves it more closely towards the ICT.

    If I wanted a bikepacking fatty/29+ bike I'd get the ICT. It should work very well.

    Slack front ends don't hurt you on a dirt road GDR style tour and when things get steep and loose on a loaded bikepacking rig a slack front end makes you happier.

    I can attach stuff to my Krampus' DT [underside] and forks if I want to, but less is more if you are dirt touring so I am keeping the bike skinny for easier bushwacking.
    Safe riding,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    I have two other fat bikes for "other" stuff.
    Must be nice to have 3 fat bikes! Since I think most of us are only fortunate enough to have one, choosing one based on 3mm difference in BB is kind of moot. As far as alternators go, my El Mariachi has them, and I haven't moved them in 2 years. I like the option to go SS if I want to, but genarally I prefer to ride my bikes than tinker with them, and since I only have one mountain bike, I have yet to fiddle with the options that Alternators allow.
    Anywho, both bikes look like they're going to be rad, and I'd be happy with either. If I lived somewhere with endless beaches, I'd probably get the Blackborow DS...

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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I use a Krampus as my bikepacking rig and it's excellent. Simliar geo to ICT. I just put on a longer fork to get an even slacker front end which moves it more closely towards the ICT.

    If I wanted a bikepacking fatty/29+ bike I'd get the ICT. It should work very well.

    Slack front ends don't hurt you on a dirt road GDR style tour and when things get steep and loose on a loaded bikepacking rig a slack front end makes you happier.

    I can attach stuff to my Krampus' DT [underside] and forks if I want to, but less is more if you are dirt touring so I am keeping the bike skinny for easier bushwacking.
    Interesting. What about snow? Any difference?

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    I dig the looks of both these bikes. I like the Blackborow's alternator drop-outs. It would be nice to stretch that rear wheel out for the snow and then be able to tuck it in nicely for trail use. Another neat aspect of it is that it has the more stand-over clearance than all the other Salsas and Surlys. This is very nice in the snow. That being said I'm committed to the ICT. Can't give you a good reason why, I know i'd be happy with either.

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    ICT has slacker head angle, shorter head tube and longer top tube
    Not huge but availability in black clinched it for me (that and Salsa's continued lack of a UK importer)

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    Ive ridden both, although I only rode the Blackborrow for 20 minutes because I was tired after a couple hours raging a bucksaw and then a carbon horsethief. I was able to ride an ICT on fresh legs on a favorite local ride with good steep climbs and fantastic descents.

    While I like the weight of the Blackborrow and am loyal to Salsa after loving 4 of their bikes, the ICT was so amazingly fun to ride downhill (and climbed well enough) that I am convinced that geo is for me. After having ridden 2012 mukluk since it came out, I think an aluminum ICT with alternator dropouts would be my ideal fatbike.

    I also think the ICT is absolutely gorgeous with the thin tubes, nice blue paint, and the silver rims, whereas and that freakin panel paint job on the top tube of the Blackborrow is hideous. Hideous paint and ugly aluminum frame design would never be a deal breaker for me, although in this day and age a 37 pound bike that costs $2700 without a suspension fork like the ICT is a deal breaker in my view.

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    I agree on the paint job on the Blackborrow 1. Maybe it looks better in person but on those pictures it off putting. If everything was as easy as picking a name you like and a pretty color ;-) I love the baby blue and I love the name ICT

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    Quote Originally Posted by willapajames View Post
    Must be nice to have 3 fat bikes! Since I think most of us are only fortunate enough to have one, choosing one based on 3mm difference in BB is kind of moot. As far as alternators go, my El Mariachi has them, and I haven't moved them in 2 years. I like the option to go SS if I want to, but genarally I prefer to ride my bikes than tinker with them, and since I only have one mountain bike, I have yet to fiddle with the options that Alternators allow.
    .
    What kinda d*ck post is this? He was just giving the reasons why he picked the Salsa. Your best bet is just to listen to what GT has to say, dude knows his stuff and knows what he likes and wants in bikes and if he wants 3 fatties well that's his right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    What kinda d*ck post is this? He was just giving the reasons why he picked the Salsa. Your best bet is just to listen to what GT has to say, dude knows his stuff and knows what he likes and wants in bikes and if he wants 3 fatties well that's his right.
    Whoah there, calm down. I know all about GT from years on this forum. Of course it's his right to have three fat bikes if he wants. Wish I could. Just saying that most folks have to settle for one fat bike that will work in the majority of situations, and having 3 different ones for different situations is quite a nice position to be in.

  18. #18
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    Huh, thanks to this thread I'm reconsidering.

    I'm in Sweden, which has an almost nonexistent fatbiking scene, so my choices are incredibly narrow and expensive, and importing adds about 50% on to the cost of anything I buy outside the EU. (Not complaining, free healthcare and amazing cycling infrastructure have to come from *somewhere* and on balance I prefer it to other options.)

    It turns out we have a good Surly dealer, so I could get the ICT a good bit cheaper than the Salsa - basically no shipping or duty costs. It would be a bit heavier, and would lack the braze-ons for Anything Cages, but it's otherwise checking all my boxes as far as modern features and Clyde-worthiness.

    Cool discussion!

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    double post.
    Last edited by bdundee; 09-18-2014 at 11:20 AM.

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    I am surprised there is no FB scene in Sweden. Everyone just switches to skis and skates or everyone puts winter tires on their narrow wheels and keeps biking?


    Quote Originally Posted by schnee View Post
    Huh, thanks to this thread I'm reconsidering.

    I'm in Sweden, which has an almost nonexistent fatbiking scene, so my choices are incredibly narrow and expensive, and importing adds about 50% on to the cost of anything I buy outside the EU. (Not complaining, free healthcare and amazing cycling infrastructure have to come from *somewhere* and on balance I prefer it to other options.)

    It turns out we have a good Surly dealer, so I could get the ICT a good bit cheaper than the Salsa - basically no shipping or duty costs. It would be a bit heavier, and would lack the braze-ons for Anything Cages, but it's otherwise checking all my boxes as far as modern features and Clyde-worthiness.

    Cool discussion!

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    Quote Originally Posted by schnee View Post
    It turns out we have a good Surly dealer, so I could get the ICT a good bit cheaper than the Salsa - basically no shipping or duty costs. It would be a bit heavier, and would lack the braze-ons for Anything Cages, but it's otherwise checking all my boxes as far as modern features and Clyde-worthiness.
    With the ICT fork, I wonder if it'd still be easy enough to just add on cage mounts with rivnuts. I probably wouldn't do it since I think I'd rather just have a front rack for bike packing. The only time I see wanting cages on the fork would be a couple growler cages for brewery runs

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    I rest my case ;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by rkzhao View Post
    With the ICT fork, I wonder if it'd still be easy enough to just add on cage mounts with rivnuts. I probably wouldn't do it since I think I'd rather just have a front rack for bike packing. The only time I see wanting cages on the fork would be a couple growler cages for brewery runs

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkzhao View Post
    With the ICT fork, I wonder if it'd still be easy enough to just add on cage mounts with rivnuts. I probably wouldn't do it since I think I'd rather just have a front rack for bike packing. The only time I see wanting cages on the fork would be a couple growler cages for brewery runs
    You can attach cages to your fork with hose clamps if you need 'em.

    Nick over at Gypsy by Trade used electrical tape to attached bottle cages to his fork and they were 100% secure for mountain bike touring.
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    Quote Originally Posted by maineCommuter View Post
    I am surprised there is no FB scene in Sweden. Everyone just switches to skis and skates or everyone puts winter tires on their narrow wheels and keeps biking?
    I think Swedes are more about running than cycling here, as a whole. That said, you're right - cyclists mostly put studded tires on their commuters and call it a day, then change over to winter sports. At least that's what people tell me now. I'll know first-hand this winter.

    It kinda makes sense, when you realize glaciers steamrolled the place practically flat and left Norway with all the mountains. The altitude graphs for my rides are silly: every one fits within 5m to 50m above sea level, even for 100km+ rides. It's pretty and has lots of variation, yeah, but coming from California the climbing is laughable.

    I did see some Youtubes of guys in Lapland that fatbike, but that's 900k north of where I live.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    I have Blackborow DS on order. I looked at the ICT, and it seems pretty good, but there are a few, admittedly minute, differences that would make the Blackborow a winner in this comparison for me.

    -3mm lower BB
    -Shorter wheel base/shorter chain stay measurements
    -Better standover
    -Alternator drop outs

    Like I say, small differences to be sure, and both are likely great bikes. My intention for the Blackborow DS is for use in bad weather Winter commutes, bushwhacking, and riding in deep snow/mud/sand where the flotation factor matters most. I have two other fat bikes for "other" stuff.
    I think the Blackborrow is also Aluminum frame vs Steel...
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    One difference I noticed that hasn't been mentioned is tires. ICT Bud and Lou, Blackborow twin Lous. Not sure what would be better and why each company decided to go the way they did.

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    Lou/Lou = paddle/paddle = soft stuff specific-ish...prolly the gnarliest sand/snow set-up going.
    Bud/Lou = tracking/paddle = less soft stuff specific-ish...faster on packed surface.

    Lou is a beast.

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    Salsa Blackborrow vs Surly ICT

    I tested an ICT w/ Bluto vs Blizzard. I prefer a steel frame. Ride in rear isn't as harsh.


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  29. #29
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    Would like to have a Blackborow with lou/lou for when the snow gets deep.
    Wonder what the Blackborow would be like with a Bluto?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windigo View Post
    Wonder what the Blackborow would be like with a Bluto?
    it would be heavier.

    rog

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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    it would be heavier.

    rog
    And bouncy er.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    And bouncy er.
    and Bluto ier

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    I have Blackborow DS on order. I looked at the ICT, and it seems pretty good, but there are a few, admittedly minute, differences that would make the Blackborow a winner in this comparison for me.

    -3mm lower BB
    -Shorter wheel base/shorter chain stay measurements
    -Better standover
    -Alternator drop outs

    Like I say, small differences to be sure, and both are likely great bikes. My intention for the Blackborow DS is for use in bad weather Winter commutes, bushwhacking, and riding in deep snow/mud/sand where the flotation factor matters most. I have two other fat bikes for "other" stuff.
    I wonder about the standover difference. Surly measures theirs at the middle of the top tube, Salsa at the point where top tube meets brace.
    Could you measure yours and see if the Blackborrow measured in the middle ends up closer to the ICT?

    More differences:
    ICT has slacker head angle AND less fork rake, for a significantly larger amount of trail.
    ICT comes in '22long' size for those tall riders who want a short stem

    g-Ted, have you tried if the wheel will go all the way forward with the Lou tire? In other words, can you actually run it at 440 mm chainstay length with Lou's on 100 mm rims?

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkzhao View Post
    and Bluto ier

    I like turtles

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    Re: Salsa Blackborrow vs Surly ICT

    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    it would be heavier.

    rog
    It would also be more boing boing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tjaard View Post
    E
    More differences:
    ICT has slacker head angle AND less fork rake, for a significantly larger amount of trail.
    Can someone explain how a larger amount of trail affects steering and stability, specifically relating to big-ass tires?

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tjaard View Post
    E

    I wonder about the standover difference. Surly measures theirs at the middle of the top tube, Salsa at the point where top tube meets brace.
    Could you measure yours and see if the Blackborrow measured in the middle ends up closer to the ICT?

    More differences:
    ICT has slacker head angle AND less fork rake, for a significantly larger amount of trail.
    ICT comes in '22long' size for those tall riders who want a short stem

    g-Ted, have you tried if the wheel will go all the way forward with the Lou tire? In other words, can you actually run it at 440 mm chainstay length with Lou's on 100 mm rims?
    I haven't measured the standover, but it is better than my Mukluks have. (One 2011, one 2012 Ti)

    The wheel is all the way forward out of the box with plenty of tire clearance with stock Clownshoe/Lou set up. Salsa Blackborrow vs Surly ICT-blackborow-ds-sun.jpg

    Both my coworker and I agree that this bike is more nimble feeling than it should be. I should have it out of hock here in a few days....
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    Wrong season (!) but which of these frames would be better suited to running a 29+ wheelset, and why?

    Im suddenly on the fence between these two frames.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the_eleven View Post
    Wrong season (!) but which of these frames would be better suited to running a 29+ wheelset, and why?

    Im suddenly on the fence between these two frames.
    I know this is old, but I'd think the ICT would make a better 29+ bike only because of the MTB geo. Just my take based on the geo figures.

  40. #40
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    I can't wait to get my ICT and go LOU/LOU with it. Couple weeks off.

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    The Ice Cream Truck comes with Anything Cage mounts on the fork, as well as mid-blade eyelets.

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