PLEASE Help Picking Parts for Correct Chainline w/170mm D.O. Fat Cargo Frame- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    PLEASE Help Picking Parts for Correct Chainline w/170mm D.O. Fat Cargo Frame

    Edit: I'm going to cross-post what I'm doing here over to the Cargo Bike thread too, because this Fat Bike is being used mainly as a workhorse grocery and carry loads shopper.

    I have NOT bought anything yet, so this is my possible starting point. BUT I need help with choosing components to get the correct chainline, offsets, and "best way" of ideally doing this correctly... like left/right sides of my pedaling is not weirdly offset to one side or the other, because I bought the wrong parts.

    I posted here 5+ years ago, when I was considering Sandman or Fatback. I almost bought frames from them, but I ended-up getting an American Made C-Moly Cargo frame designed for fat tires. It is extremely heavy duty by design, so it is way overbuilt for indestructible use, and I'm not concerned about saving money buying lightweight performance parts to outfit it. I want quality for durability over high performance. It's mostly going to be used on paved roads as a shopping workhorse and some dirt roads/trails but not mountain biking or snow. Occasional beach riding is likely a few times each year at most.

    I had serious health problems and other life altering events that prevented me from doing anything with the bare frame until now, but this detailed post should allow you to help me w/enough info, hopefully.

    Now I need help to complete it. I want durability quality and lower cost, if and when possible, without any concerns about performance with weight savings. Here's what I need help with:

    I have 100mm 26 or 24 inch rims that I will put the fattest tires I can on it. The frame is for a 26" wheelset, but I can't use this size with my short inseam not giving me enough stand-over height. I should not have any tire chain-rub issues in the Shimano 11s cassette, since the rear wheelset could be 24" vs not 26". I might use a 26" wheel in front if my stand-over height will still work ok, and I will choose between a Moonlander or IceCreamTruck fork unless someone has a better idea. I don't want a suspension fork.

    The frame is a symmetrical [non-boost or non-Pugsley] design with 20" chainstay length and track dropouts. The distance from the O.D. of the 100mm wide Bottom Bracket shell measured from its "backside" O.D. [not from center of BB] closest to the chainstay is 3-1/4", so there is plenty of large size chainring clearance.

    Advice is needed for this possible starting point w/better advice and suggestions... and I know most people are getting 1x11 now... so tell me if I'm making a mistake to consider these 2x11 parts on sale at a discount... I'm looking at buying these

    Edit: the crankset noted below cannot work w/100mm BB Shell.

    Shimano components:

    Crankset: XT M8000 Double 11-Speed
    Chainring: XT M8000 Double Chainring, 36/26T
    Front Derailleur: XT M8000 Double

    There is a Problem Solvers clamp-on front derailleur extender that should work for the front derailleur, but I really have no idea what I'm doing here. I have no Fat Bike experience or bicycle mechanic background, so I'm just shooting in the dark here.

    What Bottom Brackets should I consider buying for best offset mods that will work with these Shimano parts [or your recommended parts] for chainline, offset mods, shims, L/R fit, Q-factor, etc.?

    I know shims might be used to offset spacing on the BB, crankarms, chainrings, pedal attachments for Q-factor, L/R pedaling balance, etc., etc. BUT, like I said, I have no experience doing this myself. It's my first build as a complete newbie.

    Can anyone give me some good recommendations for best low cost parts for an ideal chainline without doing the wrong offset mods on the wrong parts? Like maybe using pedal shims to offset the BB offset, etc.

    I need to pick the right crankset, 100mm BB core, chainrings, and pedals considering shims and mods could be done to any of these parts for ideal chainline and Q-factor and L/R pedaling balance. The frame has a 100mm BB threaded shell that should be a "standard size" ready to take whatever BB "core" that will fit into this frame.

    What savings choices should I consider for durability that will put together the best setup with the above "best fit" criteria as a starting point? Maybe you have better parts considerations and/or suggestions.

    Do I need to provide additional information for further help doing this?

    TIA I really want to get this bike completed soon, so I can be riding and not brain farting unable to do this.

    I really appreciate any help you can give me. Thanks!
    Last edited by deVries; 12-04-2018 at 12:39 AM. Reason: Correcting for better clarity and mistaken ideas.

  2. #2
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    Shimano cranksets will not fit on a 100 mm bottom bracket unless you go back to the days of square taper bottom brackets. Google fat bike cranksets you should be able to find one that will work. I think going to the 24" wheel will be worse for chain / tire clearance. You are moving the wide tire closer to the cassette and the chain has to angle in to the inner cassette cogs as it goes from front to back. It still may work though. What is the rear dropout width? Need to know that to make any kind of chainline call.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    Shimano cranksets will not fit on a 100 mm bottom bracket unless you go back to the days of square taper bottom brackets. Google fat bike cranksets you should be able to find one that will work.
    I'm hoping for some specific part recommendations, since I don't know jack. Are you suggesting I find the old style square taper BB and use a different crank arm setup? I won't be able to still use the dual geared Shimano crankarms I mentioned, right? So, what would be a better combination to use instead?

    Any specific brands and/or models of square tapered BB's (or other type w/different crank arms -even 1 front chainring if better) you can recommend that are better than others to look for? Or, do you have a better suggestion? I'm not locked into any brand or specific setup at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    I think going to the 24" wheel will be worse for chain / tire clearance. You are moving the wide tire closer to the cassette and the chain has to angle in to the inner cassette cogs as it goes from front to back. It still may work though. What is the rear dropout width? Need to know that to make any kind of chainline call.
    The chainstay length is about 20". It's 3-1/4" from chainstay to backside O.D. of BB, so you have to add 1/2 diameter of BB shell to that number for total distance to BB center from the chainstay. The rear dropout width is 170mm. I want to use a wide range 11s cassette.

    Thanks for your help and expertise.
    Last edited by deVries; 12-03-2018 at 09:05 AM.

  4. #4
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    I missed the 170 in the title of your post.

    OK here goes, keep in mind that there are many items that will work. Amazon has a Sram x.5 GXP Fat bike crankset that will work for you. Get the 100 mm bottom bracket as well and you should be good to go.

    How wide a range cassette are you planning to use? a mid 40 tooth cog coupled to the 22 tooth chainring on a double crankset will give you a very very low gear. Back in the day a typical low gear would be a 22:34.

    What hub and cassette are you planning to use?

    The Shimano cranks you originally specified will not work with a 100 mm bb. I like square taper fat bike cranks but making them work is probably too complicated for where you are. Speaking of which I still think you should google fat bike cranks, and fat bikes in general,and educate yourself. Relying on internet suggestions can get lots of conflicting and some just plain wrong responses. Are there any local bike shops you can talk to?
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  5. #5
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    Who made this frame? Specs or pics?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    I missed the 170 in the title of your post.

    OK here goes, keep in mind that there are many items that will work. Amazon has a Sram x.5 GXP Fat bike crankset that will work for you. Get the 100 mm bottom bracket as well and you should be good to go.
    I checked that part and its specs say this: "Optimized Q-factor for 68/73mm shells with a 49.5mm chainline"

    I have a 100mm BB Shell paired with a 170mm rear dropout width and want to use a 10/11s cassette.

    Edit: the math is wrong below, because I'm not accounting for the overlap of the cassette sliding onto the hub. Anyone know how to do this correctly?

    How to calculate my chainline? Is this formula correct? What am I missing here?... 170mm [rear dropout] - 100mm BB Shell Width = 70mm and 70/2 = 35mm + 1/2 x Cassette Width 37.2mm+ [it's wider than this number] = 53.6mm for the middle gear chainline distance I'm looking for. BTW, I have no idea IF this is correct?

    Is "the above" chainline formula correct? It's just my idea, so I don't know if I'm correct or not??? I'm probably missing something or ??? Please correct me.

    [The above calculation is almost certainly wrong, because I'm not accounting for the distances of overlap where the cassette attaches onto the hub.]

    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    How wide a range cassette are you planning to use? a mid 40 tooth cog coupled to the 22 tooth chainring on a double crankset will give you a very very low gear. Back in the day a typical low gear would be a 22:34.
    I won't be using this bike for single track or mountain biking or snow. It's mostly for shopping on road use but might be ridden down the beach and on dirt, etc. There is a dirt trail and dirt field I will go down very often too, but it's a level section. I have moderate hills for road use with some grocery loads to pull.

    Based on this planned use what do you think would be my ideal gears? I'm not interested in pedaling this bike past 18mph a on level road, because I won't have the strength to go faster anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    What hub and cassette are you planning to use?
    I'm willing to sink more money into these parts, but only for durability and solid shifting -I don't care about saving weight. Would consider a higher end hub for durability and strength. I've heard of Hadley or a lower cost DT Swiss. I don't want to use an XD driver hub unless there is a great price/deal on a cassette match that requires it.

    What do you suggest for the hub and cassette brand and gear range for my intended use [noted again in this post and previous posts too]?

    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    I like square taper fat bike cranks but making them work is probably too complicated... Are there any local bike shops you can talk to?
    I'm trying to learn as quick as I can before talking to a bike mechanic. Fat bikes seem more of a specialized topic, since it's a newer concept for cycling. My LBS will not be working on this kind of bike normally, so I need to learn a lot myself too.

    Maybe there is a good reason to use the square tapered BB/crankset considering I might need to use shims/spacers to get this setup to work better???
    Last edited by deVries; 12-03-2018 at 06:51 PM. Reason: Noting a probable mistake in this post.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    Who made this frame? Specs or pics?
    PLEASE Help Picking Parts for Correct Chainline w/170mm D.O. Fat Cargo Frame-screenshot-81-.jpg
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  8. #8
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    I would use a Raceface Aefect crankset for a 170mm rear wheel with a single Wolftooth ring and a Shimano 11 speed XT cassette. Easy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    I would use a Raceface Aefect crankset for a 170mm rear wheel with a single Wolftooth ring and a Shimano 11 speed XT cassette. Easy.
    Thanks for the suggestion. I may end-up doing this, but I'm first going to try two chainrings up front to begin with.

    I'll consider the Raceface Aeffect using two chainrings, but I'm curious if anyone knows about using the Surly MW crankset setup for the Moonlander? I think it has a wider chainring size selection than Raceface for larger sizes when using two chainrings???...I don't know. Certainly the chainline will be very different and more outward w/Surly.

    I wonder if using a triple chainring would be a good idea too, BUT just use ONLY two of the outer chainrings for shifting. This would allow for altering the chainline further outward, avoiding any tire/rim rub, and it's what Surly is doing from my understanding. Using the middle chainring for lower gears in the back cassette would give better alignment and less twist when engaging the larger sized cogs.

    Are any triple chainrings designed for using with a 170mm RDO w/100mm BB?

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    You are making this way to hard. The x.5 fat bike crankset is for 100 mm bottom brackets and 170 rears. I suspect the 68/73 optimization language is for their non fat version. I also suspect the cranksets are identical only the bottom bracket spindles have been changed. A crankset with good chainline on a 68 mm bottom bracket and 135 rear end will work on a 100 mm bb and a 170 mm hub. both ends got about 35 mm wider and a 190 rear end uses an effective 120 mm bb so both another 20 mm wider.

    For the level riding you plan on doing do as NYrr496 said get a single affect and an 11 speed rear and maybe a 28 tooth front chainring. Get the Race Face bottom bracket cups to match the crank. This is not rocket science don't sweat it quite so much. The hubs you mention are fine, both will work.

    Forget I mentioned square taper. They will take some fiddling. The modern fatbike specific cranksets will be mostly plug and play.
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  11. #11
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    Have you talked to the guys that built your frame. They could be a good source on what parts to use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    You are making this way to hard. The x.5 fat bike crankset is for 100 mm bottom brackets and 170 rears. I suspect the 68/73 optimization language is for their non fat version. I also suspect the cranksets are identical only the bottom bracket spindles have been changed. A crankset with good chainline on a 68 mm bottom bracket and 135 rear end will work on a 100 mm bb and a 170 mm hub. both ends got about 35 mm wider and a 190 rear end uses an effective 120 mm bb so both another 20 mm wider.
    I do overthink when I'm trying to learn new concepts and problems. It's just my OCD nature, and it's the only way I tend to learn AND remember. This can be annoying if you think I'm "debating" anyone's ideas, but I just have to explore all options to fully understand. For example, here is something I found-out when looking at BB.

    In my OP I mentioned using the dual chainring M8000 crankset, but you said it won't work with a 100mm BB. The Shimano specs are:

    Cassette Compatibility: 11
    4-Arm Chainrings: Yes
    Bolt Circle Diameter: P.C.D. 96/64mm
    Crank Arms: Hollowtech II Technology
    BB Shell Width: 68, 73mm

    Now, I'm confused, because looking at quality made Raceface 100mm BB for fatbikes it says these can be compatible with some 24mm Shimano Spindles. It does not specify which ones, but the M8000 crankarms use 24mm spindles. My guess is that the spindle length on the crankarm will not be long enough to place the spider in the correct offset position??? Spindle length extender coupling anyone??? See, this is how I overthink things. Lol. It's compatible with 24mm spindle diameter cranksets, like Shimano HollowTech II and the M8000. Where is my thinking going wrong now, since you did write this too:
    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    A crankset with good chainline on a 68 mm bottom bracket and 135 rear end will work on a 100 mm bb and a 170 mm hub. both ends got about 35 mm wider and a 190 rear end uses an effective 120 mm bb so both another 20 mm wider.
    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    For the level riding you plan on doing do as NYrr496 said get a single affect and an 11 speed rear and maybe a 28 tooth front chainring. Get the Race Face bottom bracket cups to match the crank. This is not rocket science don't sweat it quite so much. The hubs you mention are fine, both will work.
    I'm usually acting outside-the-box. The trendy thing is to have a 1x11s, for good reasons too, like simplicity, but I'm going to start with 2 chainring gears upfront to begin with. Then, I can always cut back to 1 speed. I guess I need to choose between the Aeffect and the Chester and maybe a Surly MW too?

    Hey, I think I've narrowed this down to one of these three. Since I'm starting with a 2 chainring setup, which of these three would you choose and why?

    Thanks for your time and help with this. I do appreciate your suggestions very much. I'm just a bit stubborn about wanting to go with a 2x 10/11s setup to begin with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    Have you talked to the guys that built your frame. They could be a good source on what parts to use.
    It was a one-man operation, and the designer changed it differently than what I have. I don't think he actively sells these now. He moved to another state, and I don't have his contact info anymore. I doubt he will remember what parts were tested for this frame that was built over 4-5+ years ago. But I do think there are more pics online, so it might be possible to magnify the image to see what parts are on the frame too. I'm pretty sure he used Surly for the crankset and BB.

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    I have a 2x10 drivetrain on my main fat bike right now because it's how I originally built the bike. I've been waiting for either the cassette or the rear derailleur to fail so I can justify swapping to 1x11 or 12. I've been building one by bikes for friends and customers for a few years now and my Krampus is 1x11. It's the way to go.

    I have a Surly OD crankset on two bikes. 33 and 24 on my two by bike and 28 with a bash ring on my beach bike. Great crankset but very heavy. May not matter if you plan on hauling stuff on your bike.

    The Raceface Aeffect cranksets have 24mm spindles and work with Shimano bottom brackets.
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    I just read back and saw you also asked about hubs. Have a look at Bike Hub Store. Don't let the low cost fool you. They come with good bearings and an anti bite freehub, meaning the cassette won't dig in as easily.
    Use an XT cassette so the loads are spread out over the wider webs.

    Have you ridden a fat bike before? I'm speaking from experience here... I'm not the fastest guy in the world. You're overthinking the front chain rings. My Surly cranks came with 36 tooth big rings and I had to change em to 33 to utilize more gears on my cassette. My friend, who is about 90 pounds lighter than me uses the 36 but I'll bet money he never ever goes on the 11 or 13 tooth cogs on his cassette. We're both running 4.8" tires on 80mm rims.

    What rim and tire combo are you planning on running?
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    I am pretty sure the spindle is too short as you say. There really is not a market for specific spindle extenders because there are lots of cranksets that work right out of the box. This is not the early days of fat bikes when everything was sort of make it fit. Not to say there can't still be issues but not so much if you use purpose built stuff and don't try to mix and max manufacturers, at least on parts that have to bolt together.
    As to 2 by or 1 by as NYrr496, so too do I have both. A 2 by 9 and a 1 by 10. The ranges are similar on mine, a bit more high end on the 2 by 9. They both work fine. If you go with a wide range 11 and a 22/36 there will be gears on either end you never use. If you go with say a 12/36 in the back and a 22/36 in the front you will likely use most of what you have. Pretty much the same ratio can be had with a wider range 11 speed in the back and a single 30ish tooth in the front.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    As to 2 by or 1 by as NYrr496, so too do I have both. A 2 by 9 and a 1 by 10. The ranges are similar on mine, a bit more high end on the 2 by 9. They both work fine. If you go with a wide range 11 and a 22/36 there will be gears on either end you never use. If you go with say a 12/36 in the back and a 22/36 in the front you will likely use most of what you have. Pretty much the same ratio can be had with a wider range 11 speed in the back and a single 30ish tooth in the front.
    Hey, I really appreciate both of your suggestions and ideas. Both of you have really helped me learn quite a bit, so much so, that if I like using this fat cargo bike w/big tires too, then I'm probably going to get a performance 2nd Fat Bike. The 2nd performance fat bike is where I will seriously consider going w/1x11s.

    Here are some good reasons I'm sticking with either a 2/3 chainring setup in front on this bike.

    Edit: there are no front 3 chainring setups properly spaced for 170mm RDO symmetrical rear wheels.

    1) I'm going to be carrying loads as heavy as a 2nd person on the back rack. I want less side-loads and twist on the chain/cogs to lower the wear and tear factor by having better chain alignment with 2/3 chainrings.

    2) I will use the high/low gearing range extremes more often, so, again, I get better alignment and less wear with 2/3 chainrings upfront.

    3) I want a large chainring upfront for faster higher gears, because I plan on trying an electric hub-motor in a swappable 2nd front wheel that I'll need to use on occasion.

    I didn't mention this before, because I wasn't sure I was going to build the bike with certain setups until today. Now I know I will be able to use the higher gearing with the occasional use of an electric hub-motor too.
    Last edited by deVries; 12-05-2018 at 05:18 PM. Reason: Not going to use 3 chainrings!

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    I just read back and saw you also asked about hubs. Have a look at Bike Hub Store. Don't let the low cost fool you. They come with good bearings and an anti bite freehub, meaning the cassette won't dig in as easily.
    Use an XT cassette so the loads are spread out over the wider webs.
    Thanks again for your help. I'm really enjoying learning from both of you here, and you've helped me out quite a bit.

    Yeah, I checked-out Bike Hub. Is that a Novatech hub??? It might be because it looks like it has the same styling and QR match??? I wonder how easy it will be to get parts for it? I haven't asked them, but someone posted here about trouble getting service parts for the Novatech hubs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deVries View Post
    Thanks again for your help. I'm really enjoying learning from both of you here, and you've helped me out quite a bit.

    Yeah, I checked-out Bike Hub. Is that a Novatech hub??? It might be because it looks like it has the same styling and QR match??? I wonder how easy it will be to get parts for it? I haven't asked them, but someone posted here about trouble getting service parts for the Novatech hubs.
    Not Novatech. Bitex. Much better. BHS sells bearings and freehubs, axles... I've been using their stuff for a few years now with zero problems. I get lots of requests for them in many of the builds I do.

    Don't do a triple. I PROMISE you'll never use it. Double if anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    I would use a Raceface Aefect crankset for a 170mm rear wheel with a single Wolftooth ring and a Shimano 11 speed XT cassette. Easy.
    The only thing I may change here is going with the Wolftooth Camo setup to aid in dialing in the chainline, which seems to be a concern. I would also go with an elliptical chainring as they do seem to smooth out the power transfer under load.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    Don't do a triple. I PROMISE you'll never use it. Double if anything.
    That is great advice. I cannot help but think of it as:

    "Don't shoot yourself in the head. If you must shoot yourself, do it in the foot."

    Having changed from 2x10 to 1x11 I can say I would never go back. Chain line is an insignificant issue. One problem I had with a small ring (22t) and a high load was breaking the chain. That is due to the smaller chainring creating a larger crankarm to chain location ratio (longer effective lever arm). Going with a larger chainring and larger cassette cog to achieve the same gear inches moves the mechanical advantage from the front to the back and takes stress off the chain, something the OP may wish to consider when hauling heavy loads. (I tow my disabled son, 140 lbs on a 60 lb tag along and I go 200 lbs+ so my bike sees some good loads)

    I had a 2003 road bike with a Dura-Ace triple. Even with that top of the line setup it sucked.

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    It is difficult to calculate chainline without knowing exactly how the cassette sits on the hub or how the crank mates to the spindle. Some crankset manufacturers publish the chainlines for their cranksets on various bottom bracket widths but finding where that inner cog on an 11 speed cassette sits may be difficult. And then if you do find it, what is the optimum number? I suppose whatever clears the rear tire would be good but going from some calculated chainline to determining sifting quality or chain cog life there just isn't an equation for that.
    Back in the early days of fat bikes it was a semi big deal because we were trying to make parts work that were not designed for fat bikes and 100 mm bottom brackets. Now there are purpose built parts. A fat bike crank from a Sram or Raceface, for example, designed for a 100 mm bb and a 170 rear end will just work with your bike. Double chain ring or single (given the correct spider) will work fine. The only fly in this ointment would be if you use the 24" wheel because that moves the wide tire closer to the rear axle. This may or may not be a problem. It will be less likely to be a problem if you go with a one by crankset since they move the inner cog away from the center axis of the bike. The fact that you are using a cargo bike with relatively long chainstays improves your chances making it work with the smaller wheel since the rear axle is moved away from the bottom bracket.

    Back to the question of the XT 8000 series. It's not just a question of placing the spider at the correct offset. The spindle on those cranks is 35 ish mm too short. It probably won't even reach through the bottom bracket. Several people have tried to make bottom bracket extenders over the years. They seldom hold up. The torque on those axles when mashing ultra low gears is immense. Don't ask me how I know this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    Back to the question of the XT 8000 series. It's not just a question of placing the spider at the correct offset. The spindle on those cranks is 35 ish mm too short. It probably won't even reach through the bottom bracket. Several people have tried to make bottom bracket extenders over the years. They seldom hold up. The torque on those axles when mashing ultra low gears is immense. Don't ask me how I know this.
    Lol. Thankfully, you have given me excellent advice along with everyone else that posted above too, thanks guys, but just to show you how "crazy" I can be I did find this article -snippet below...

    https://bikerumor.com/2013/02/07/hac...-on-a-fatbike/

    Recently, we got a tip informing us that someone had seen a Moots FrosTi out there with a Shimano XT crankset. They had sent some pictures, but with zero information and pictures that really didn’t prove it was a 100mm BB we had little to go on. It didn’t take us long though to stumble on Lloyd Chamber’s cycling blog, that happened to have a gallery of photos of a Moots FrosTi with an XT crank. It just so happens that not only is Lloyd an amazing photographer, he is also quite the cyclist with his fleet of Moots being some of his favorite subject matter among other cycling related photos. There it was, clear as day – a Shimano M780 crankset on a Moots FrosTi.

    [...]

    That is, until I spoke to Lloyd. I had been told by a friend in the know that since the spindle is simply pressed into the crank arm, it might be possible to press it out and have a longer one pressed in. After asking Lloyd about it, the answer I got was “special project for the crank.”

    Hmmph.

    Prying a little farther, it turns out Lloyd was simply being conscious of his connections and was being careful about what he said. Finally, he came back and said that the crank modification was a custom job he had made to his specs by a member of the Shimano staff who prefers to remain anonymous. So there you have it. Possibly one of the only, or very very few XT fatbike cranks on the market with no plans for production. Still cool none the less.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    Don't do a triple. I PROMISE you'll never use it. Double if anything.
    Lol, I'm crazy, why? I was thinking last night about getting a Fat Sram GX for a double ring, and, then, remove it to put on a triple ring outboard. Then rig-up the derailleur with spacer to reach-out for that 3rd outside ring. Or, use the 2 inner rings with bigger chainrings and allow the 3rd ring to act like a bash retainer. I'm crazy enough to consider these ideas, but I'm hopefully wise enough not to actually attempt it. We shall see... Bwahahaha!

    Yeah, I think I won't be shooting myself in the head, maybe the foot, as someone suggested I might be doing instead...

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    That is great advice. I cannot help but think of it as:
    "Don't shoot yourself in the head. If you must shoot yourself, do it in the foot."

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    I'm going with an experimental concept, which is to test-out 2x chainrings w/10/11s cassette setups. I'm looking at Sram GX-1400 and Raceface Ride cranksets because of super pricing right now. Also, these can easily run 1x or 2x or 3x, but I'm only looking to do 2x or 1x. There is a lot of chainline placement options by testing these setups, and because I don't know what rims/tires I'll end-up using I'll have lot of flexibility.

    It's probably going to be a month or so before I'm ready to ride, but I'll keep posting here about what I'm learning to hopefully add a bit of useful info to the forum.

    I found some really good chainline wheel/tire w/crankset selection articles and equipment info online, and I'll be posting snippets and links when time permits.

    If anyone knows of some other good flexible chainline crankset/chainring equipment and setup ideas that can be found for excellent prices, I'm on a lower cost budget, then please post those ideas here too. The focus is for 170mm rear dropouts matched to 100mm Bottom Bracket. TIA.

    Does anyone know of exceptional quality BSA English threaded 100mm BB for 24mm spindle to choose over another for $30 to $100 range? Also, what to avoid in that price range too.

  26. #26
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    Don't overthink the bottom bracket. More expensive ones may have better bearings. Buy one that is compatible with your crankset and that is within your budget.

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    Shimano bottom brackets are cheap and excellent. Chris King is expensive and excellent. I have both.

    Your plan sounds solid. Looking forward to your results.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    Shimano bottom brackets are cheap and excellent. Chris King is expensive and excellent. I have both.
    Since I am going to be experimenting with the Race Face Aeffect 3x for gearing and chainline and tire/rim match-up for 100mm BB, I've found a lot of negative comments about RF's own 24mm BB saying these don't last and are poor quality.

    I haven't bought the BB yet, so I'm wondering if I could get a better quality BB that will still work with the RF Aeffect. Any ideas or suggestions???

    I don't know? Has anyone used Race Face XC or DH BB for BSA 100mm? I'd rather pay more to avoid lower quality.

    Also, has anyone used an SRAM 12s Fat BB 100mm 170mm/hub setup with TWO different tire/rim widths that could allow for the chainline to be moved inward if using a 40-50mm wide rim vs 100mm rim?

    I mean, does SRAM allow for the chainline to be moved inward if 3rd party cranks, like RF, allow for more chainline adjustment? Just wondering if the left/right horizontal axis of chainline will have much affect on the rear shifting if the front chainline can be moved inward when using narrower rims/tires vs when using a wider wheel/tire set when needed too?

    It's my understanding the main reason the chainline has to be moved further out is just for the fatter/wider tires, but what about using a much narrower rim/tire set too? Any reason to be concerned about chainlines with two different wide/narrower wheelsets?

    Overthinking again? Am I?

  29. #29
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    Your chain line will not change if you were to put narrower rims/tires on the bike. Why? because those wheels will still have the same width hub. The hub is what determines the cassette's location relative to the frame and chain ring(s). The rear spacing of the frame determines which hub width you need. When changing wheels the most you might have to do is a slight cable adjustment for the rear derailleur (re-tune) to account for manufacturing differences between hubs. NO futzing with the crankset is required, NONE.

    When in doubt, Sheldon Brown:

    https://www.sheldonbrown.com/chainline.html

    I would suggest buying this:

    https://www.velopress.com/books/zinn...e-maintenance/

  30. #30
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    If I'm building a bike for myself, I usually use a Chris King bb. If I'm building a customer bike and they don't want to spend CK money, I use Shimano. They work great. I've probably built fifteen fat bikes with Aeffect cranksets and Shimano bottom brackets and zero complaints. I ride with three guys every week and two of them are on Shimano bottom brackets with Aeffects. If there was an issue, I'd know about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    I've probably built fifteen fat bikes with Aeffect cranksets and Shimano bottom brackets and zero complaints.
    So, Shimano makes a Fat BSA 24mm/100mm BB that works with Aeffect?

    I'm interested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    Your chain line will not change if you were to put narrower rims/tires on the bike.
    Agreed. I wasn't thinking too clearly near 4am.

    I still have this crazy idea about testing the 12s SRAM with a 3x spider upfront with 3 different chainrings of different sizes. Not necessarily to actively shift between the chainrings, but, instead, to have the option of manually moving the chain to one ring or the other based on the ride conditions I might be facing. This might be very useful if attacking some very steep hills or when needing a high gear if in ebike mode.

    So, the idea here is to have 3 "ready to go" chainrings that the chain could be switched to (by hand before riding) based on ride conditions or for testing purposes, but not necessarily to shift between the rings while riding with a FD.

    Soooo, that's my issue really. Just how tolerant is the chainline [CL] going to be with working ok, when using three chainrings that are not going to be perfectly centered for the design spec CL of 66.5mm for the DUB 12s Fat 170mm???

    Will the outer3/inner1 c-rings still work ok with 12s shifting of the RD???

    What do you think? Anyone?

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by deVries View Post
    So, Shimano makes a Fat BSA 24mm/100mm BB that works with Aeffect?

    I'm interested.
    The BB doesn't care what width the BB shell is. It just threads into each side of the BB shell on the frame.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny View Post
    The BB doesn't care what width the BB shell is. It just threads into each side of the BB shell on the frame.
    Exactly.
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny View Post
    The BB doesn't care what width the BB shell is. It just threads into each side of the BB shell on the frame.
    As long as one does not care to have to plastic connector tube...

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by deVries View Post
    Agreed. I wasn't thinking too clearly near 4am.

    I still have this crazy idea about testing the 12s SRAM with a 3x spider upfront with 3 different chainrings of different sizes. Not necessarily to actively shift between the chainrings, but, instead, to have the option of manually moving the chain to one ring or the other based on the ride conditions I might be facing. This might be very useful if attacking some very steep hills or when needing a high gear if in ebike mode.

    So, the idea here is to have 3 "ready to go" chainrings that the chain could be switched to (by hand before riding) based on ride conditions or for testing purposes, but not necessarily to shift between the rings while riding with a FD.

    Soooo, that's my issue really. Just how tolerant is the chainline [CL] going to be with working ok, when using three chainrings that are not going to be perfectly centered for the design spec CL of 66.5mm for the DUB 12s Fat 170mm???

    Will the outer3/inner1 c-rings still work ok with 12s shifting of the RD???

    What do you think? Anyone?
    It is going to be less tolerant with multiple chain rings. The same guidelines will apply with regard to cross chaining. You will NOT want to utilize all 12 cogs from the inner and outer rings.

    Are you still thinking of running a 24" rear wheel? That effectively lowers your rear ratio as well. That would effectively make a 50T rear cog equal to a 54T cog on a 26" wheel. Put a 28T on the front and you would climb anything you would need to.

    BTW, it looks like Design Logic has updated their frame design with some supplemental seat stays. From your picture that frame utilizes the rack as the seat stay. Not structurally efficient. If I were you I would contact them to see if they could modify your frame and perhaps modify the top tube to give you more stand over.

    Design Logic Bikes, cargo bicycles made in the USA
    Last edited by BlueCheesehead; 12-17-2018 at 12:15 PM.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by deVries View Post
    Agreed. I wasn't thinking too clearly near 4am.

    I still have this crazy idea about testing the 12s SRAM with a 3x spider upfront with 3 different chainrings of different sizes. Not necessarily to actively shift between the chainrings, but, instead, to have the option of manually moving the chain to one ring or the other based on the ride conditions I might be facing. This might be very useful if attacking some very steep hills or when needing a high gear if in ebike mode.

    So, the idea here is to have 3 "ready to go" chainrings that the chain could be switched to (by hand before riding) based on ride conditions or for testing purposes, but not necessarily to shift between the rings while riding with a FD.

    Soooo, that's my issue really. Just how tolerant is the chainline [CL] going to be with working ok, when using three chainrings that are not going to be perfectly centered for the design spec CL of 66.5mm for the DUB 12s Fat 170mm???

    Will the outer3/inner1 c-rings still work ok with 12s shifting of the RD???

    What do you think? Anyone?
    The problem with trying to use 3 chainrings with 12 speed is that the rear derailleur will not be able to take up enough chain slack to work in all chainring/cog combinations. You would have to set the chain length so that all cogs are usable when you are in the middle chainring. When you switch to the small chainring, you could use the bigger cogs, but when you shift to the small cogs, the chain would have a bunch of slack and be bouncing around all over the place and hitting things. Then when you shift into the large chainring, you could use the small cogs, but when you try to shift into the bigger cogs, your expensive 12 speed derailleur will get ripped off the frame. And the chainline would be slightly worse that a 3x9 or 3x10 setup just because the outside cogs are further from the center of the cassette. A 3x12 setup will just not work, end of story. It doesn't matter if you shift by hand or with a front derailleur.

    I think you're missing the whole point of 12 speed. Basically, you can get the same spread of gears with a 1x12 that you can with a 3x9 setup. You are trying to build too much versatility into the drivetrain, as some point it just can't do everything and instead doesn't do anything well.

  38. #38
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    ^^^ He has been warned to not shoot himself in the head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    I ride with three guys every week and two of them are on Shimano bottom brackets with Aeffects. If there was an issue, I'd know about it.
    Sounds like you're "the one" for knowing which Shimano BB's I can choose from. Which specific S-BB's do you suggest, and is there anything special/unique about installing or maintaining these to use with the Aeffect? Extra parts or tools, or spacers, etc.

    Why does everyone tend to sell/buy BB's with the tubes for the width of the BB spacing? Advantages? Or, marketing ploy and misdirection?

    TIA.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    ^^^ He has been warned to not shoot himself in the head.
    Agreed. I know now I can't easily [or even possibly] get 3x to work w/12s. Maybe 2x "hacker version" without a front derailleur and manually switch rings based on ride type [hills, flats, faster speed], but run the ride in 1x mode.

    For example, a 2x run as a 1x using 34/36t and a 44t CR, but I'm told the RD may not be able to handle the chain slop??? Plus, the chainline misalignment with one ring not centered, and CR ring size variance causing necessary adjustment on RD too. BUT since I'm not shifting w/FD between CR's, then maybe I could get it really close to the centered CR to allow it to work?

    Still crazy or possible???

  41. #41
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    https://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-XT...SABEgJnefD_BwE

    Comes with three spacers. You'll need a bb wrench or socket.
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    https://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-XT...SABEgJnefD_BwE

    Comes with three spacers. You'll need a bb wrench or socket.
    Thanks. For my 100mm wide BSA threaded BB shell, then do I need to cut the 68/73mm spindle "spacer tube" in half, or it's already split into 2 parts, or is it even usable for my installation? It's confusing, since the link you gave does show the adapter tube that , I assume, cannot work or fit across my BB shell 100mm width.

    I see the Chris King BB needs a tube kit to work, so KC says, so what do I do with this Shimano "missing" or wrong tube length?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by deVries; 12-18-2018 at 01:20 AM.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by deVries View Post
    Thanks. For my 100mm wide BSA threaded BB shell, then do I need to cut the 68/73mm spindle "spacer tube" in half, or it's already split into 2 parts, or is it even usable for my installation? It's confusing, since the link you gave does show the adapter tube that , I assume, cannot work or fit across my BB shell 100mm width.

    I see the Chris King BB needs a tube kit to work, so KC says, so what do I do with this Shimano "missing" or wrong tube length?

    Thanks.
    You just don't use the tube. You are correct that it is too short to span the wider 100mm BB shell. The tubes don't really do much, as it's all inside the BB shell and not exposed to the elements. Maybe if you are constantly riding in wet weather and water makes it's way down the seat tube it helps protect the spindle and bearings?

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by deVries View Post
    Agreed. I know now I can't easily [or even possibly] get 3x to work w/12s. Maybe 2x "hacker version" without a front derailleur and manually switch rings based on ride type [hills, flats, faster speed], but run the ride in 1x mode.

    For example, a 2x run as a 1x using 34/36t and a 44t CR, but I'm told the RD may not be able to handle the chain slop??? Plus, the chainline misalignment with one ring not centered, and CR ring size variance causing necessary adjustment on RD too. BUT since I'm not shifting w/FD between CR's, then maybe I could get it really close to the centered CR to allow it to work?

    Still crazy or possible???
    Yes, still crazy. The problem is the amount of chain the rear derailleur can take up. I wasn't able to fin the exact spec, but the SRAM Eagle derailleurs are made to be used with a 10-50t cassette, so the max slack it can take up is about 50-10=40t. Maybe it can take up 2 or 4 more? But if you are using 34t and a 44t chainrings, it would need to take up 10t more slack when you switch chainrings. Again, it doesn't matter how you switch, by hand or with a front derailleur. The only way to make it work would be having 2 different chains of different lengths that you swap in depending on what chainring you are using. It's just not worth it, the range of a 1x12 is so wide already.

    You keep focusing on chainline, which is the least of your problems. Getting the 2 chainrings centered on the cassette should be no problem.

  45. #45
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    Correct. Just omit the tube.
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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny View Post
    Yes, still crazy........

    You keep focusing on chainline, which is the least of your problems. Getting the 2 chainrings centered on the cassette should be no problem.
    And not only that but if the chain rings are off by a little bit it just doesn't matter.

    deVries you need to read Sheldon Browns thoughts as stated earlier. And any other bike mechanics reference you can find. These issues are simple in some ways and complicated in others. Getting a good understanding from necessarily short and often contradictory MTBR posts is going to be difficult.
    Latitude 61

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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny View Post
    The problem with trying to use 3 chainrings with 12 speed is that the rear derailleur will not be able to take up enough chain slack to work in all chainring/cog combinations. You would have to set the chain length so that all cogs are usable when you are in the middle chainring. When you switch to the small chainring, you could use the bigger cogs, but when you shift to the small cogs, the chain would have a bunch of slack and be bouncing around all over the place and hitting things. Then when you shift into the large chainring, you could use the small cogs, but when you try to shift into the bigger cogs, your expensive 12 speed derailleur will get ripped off the frame. And the chainline would be slightly worse that a 3x9 or 3x10 setup just because the outside cogs are further from the center of the cassette. A 3x12 setup will just not work, end of story. It doesn't matter if you shift by hand or with a front derailleur.

    I think you're missing the whole point of 12 speed. Basically, you can get the same spread of gears with a 1x12 that you can with a 3x9 setup. You are trying to build too much versatility into the drivetrain, as some point it just can't do everything and instead doesn't do anything well.
    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny View Post
    Yes, still crazy. The problem is the amount of chain the rear derailleur can take up. I wasn't able to fin the exact spec, but the SRAM Eagle derailleurs are made to be used with a 10-50t cassette, so the max slack it can take up is about 50-10=40t. Maybe it can take up 2 or 4 more? But if you are using 34t and a 44t chainrings, it would need to take up 10t more slack when you switch chainrings. Again, it doesn't matter how you switch, by hand or with a front derailleur. The only way to make it work would be having 2 different chains of different lengths that you swap in depending on what chainring you are using. It's just not worth it, the range of a 1x12 is so wide already.
    Ok guys, I've come-up with another "outside the box" solution that MIGHT address all the problems/issues with different chain length and B adjustment. I got this idea by starting a thread in the drivetrain section. Please go over the entire posts, because my initial post does not cover my further developed ideas as the thread progresses.

    Now, am I still wrong in those last thread ideas I posted at the end of the tread today? Please explain where I'm still going wrong -IF possible. I realize I may be completely fooled by my one-track thinking, and I'm missing "the obvious" mistake(s) I'm making. One person [HollyBoni] already gave-up in that thread, so maybe someone else can give me the magic words or YT video to show where I'm going wrong. Then again, maybe not. Bwahahaha!

    Good luck... but please help if you can and many thanks, already!

    Here is the thread link:

    https://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-s...s-1093862.html

  48. #48
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    The answer is simple:

    1.) buy it
    2.) install it
    3.) break it
    4.) you then have two choices:
    a.) Learn from the experience
    b.) go back to step one and repeat

    Sooner or later you will learn.

    I too am tapping out from this topic.

    I am done humoring, it is in fact a stupid idea that will fail.

  49. #49
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    Dude. I'm tellin' ya, my buddy who has GX Eagle on his Surly Krampus is running a 34 tooth front ring. He's not in the greatest shape in the whole world but he can climb any hill and his bike is plenty fast on the flats. He has all the range in the world with a single ring.
    I'm about to build him another fattie and it's also going to have 1x12.
    When I break any meaningful component on my 2x10 drivetrain, it's also going to GX Eagle.
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    The answer is simple:

    1.) buy it
    2.) install it
    3.) break it
    4.) you then have two choices:
    a.) Learn from the experience
    b.) go back to step one and repeat

    Sooner or later you will learn.

    I too am tapping out from this topic.

    I am done humoring, it is in fact a stupid idea that will fail.
    Did you read through that entire thread up to the point where I posted a pic of the track dropout w/derailleur attachment?

    I don't intend to break anything, since I'm hoping to understand what can and cannot work BEFORE breaking something. I appreciate your help in trying to explain things, and I can understand your frustration with my lack of understanding. I'm very frustrated too! LOL.

    I'm going to try a basic 1x12s setup BEFORE doing any bat sheeit crazy experiments, which I will do on a repair stand to understand where I'm mistaken, again, so I don't break anything.

    In the meantime, humor me, we can all laugh at ourselves sometimes. So, the joke is on me. I'm too low geared to understand now...

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    Dude. I'm tellin' ya, my buddy who has GX Eagle on his Surly Krampus is running a 34 tooth front ring. He's not in the greatest shape in the whole world but he can climb any hill and his bike is plenty fast on the flats. He has all the range in the world with a single ring.
    I'm about to build him another fattie and it's also going to have 1x12.
    When I break any meaningful component on my 2x10 drivetrain, it's also going to GX Eagle.
    I've taken your advice to heart, since I have already bought an NX w/SramDUB that comes w/30t. [Won't be here till January.] I'll work-up to higher CR gear levels with 1x configuration, yes, ONE CR [not 2x or 3x] at a time and see what happens.

    In the meantime, hopefully, my insanity over trying to use the Aeffect beyond 1x DM into the realm of 2x CR's mounted for 1x ONLY use with NO FD will subside, but I'm insane enough to go there IF the DUB won't satisfy.

    Bwahahaha!

    We'll see. I trust you guys are the sane ones, and I'm just having fun thinking of BSC ideas in the meantime. The joke is On Me! Humor me!
    Last edited by deVries; 12-20-2018 at 09:55 PM. Reason: spelling correction

  52. #52
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    Keep us posted.
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  53. #53
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    So if I understand you correctly(yes I read the other thread), this is your plan:

    When you want to use the bigger chainring, you manually move the chain to the bigger chainring, you adjust the B tension screw so the gap is closer to what it needs to be(only you can't adjust it correctly, because it nees to be adjusted in the 50t cog), then you adjust the limit screw so you can't use the biggest 50t cog.

    Sounds like a royal PITA to me.

    A better plan, if you REALLY want 2 chainrings is to just use 2 different length chains. Have them setup at the correct length and use the quick link to easily remove and reinstall the chains. There is absolutely no reason to even consider a 3x drivetrain with 12 speed. The range is already huge and the gears on either end will be completely useless.

  54. #54
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    I can't wait til Devries gets his parts. Idle hands are the devil's workshop.
    Last edited by NYrr496; 12-21-2018 at 06:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    The only thing I may change here is going with the Wolftooth Camo setup to aid in dialing in the chainline, which seems to be a concern. I would also go with an elliptical chainring as they do seem to smooth out the power transfer under load.
    Just as an update, I want you to know all your suggestions I've checked-out. Including your Camo idea and NYrr496 mentioning Wolftooth and Shimano BB. Btw, I ordered the BB you linked to. Thanks!

    Now, we all know I consider crazy ideas, but I don't necessarily ACT on these BSC ideas. LOL.

    I've taken into consideration everyone's advice to not do 3x or even 2x, and I ended-up ordering Sram NX 12s w/DUB. Also, ordered the Aeffect too just in case I want to do some crazy experiments, but I'm thinking I probably won't have to. Why?

    I found-out about the Oneup's Switch quick swap CR system, and I ordered that for the DUB and Aeffect. These allow me to swap out CR's quickly between 28t up to 36t, so I think these may workout for quick swaps and no need for 2x or 3x.

    Has anyone tried Oneup's Switch CR system? Comments?

    https://www.oneupcomponents.com/coll...lacement-rings

    I ordered the 34t/36t today, so I can report back later how well these work. At least their prices are lower vs Race Face and other similar products, and their quick switch system is fantastic if it works as well IRL as this idea is in theory.

    There's an excellent chance I won't need a larger CR than 36t, so I won't have to go with another type of CR if the Oneup Switch system works well.

    Yes, all you guys are right that 12s offers plenty of high/low gearing range, and since this is not a touring or high speed long ride roadie bike that needs more closer gears...

    I think you guys really helped me make the right choices.

    So thanks!

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny View Post
    So if I understand you correctly (yes I read the other thread), this is your plan:

    When you want to use the bigger chainring, you manually move the chain to the bigger chainring, you adjust the B tension screw so the gap is closer to what it needs to be (only you can't adjust it correctly, because it needs to be adjusted in the 50t cog), [...]
    Hey, thanks a bunch for reading that BSC idea thread. I really appreciate your feedback. I think B Adjustment is meant to be done only with the 50t cog, because the whole shift system is balanced from that point for all the other cogs too. I won't be changing out any cogs, so, yes, there's no reason why I should not set the B Adjust from their Specs... I must measure it there at the 50t cog. Why can't I? Of course, I can and will. No reason not too even IF I will not shift into that cog; it still requires the setting be made at that cog.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny View Post
    [...] then you adjust the limit screw so you can't use the biggest 50t cog.
    Yes, correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny View Post
    Sounds like a royal PITA to me.
    Not necessarily. I'll be using the same two cogs each time, so all I have to remember is how many turns on the B Adjustment bolt I need to make between these two cogs. I think I can remember one number and which direction to adjust for each cog. PITA? Not for that part, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny View Post
    A better plan, if you REALLY want 2 chainrings is to just use 2 different length chains. Have them setup at the correct length and use the quick link to easily remove and reinstall the chains. There is absolutely no reason to even consider a 3x drivetrain with 12 speed. The range is already huge and the gears on either end will be completely useless.
    Well, first off, I'm going to try-out the Oneup quick Switch system and see if this works. See my other post next to or near this post today for the details, as I think this quick switch system may be ideal. We'll see.

    And, again, I do want to thank you for reading my posts and offering your suggestions and critique, as you have been very helpful too. Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by deVries View Post
    Hey, thanks a bunch for reading that BSC idea thread. I really appreciate your feedback. I think B Adjustment is meant to be done only with the 50t cog, because the whole shift system is balanced from that point for all the other cogs too. I won't be changing out any cogs, so, yes, there's no reason why I should not set the B Adjust from their Specs... I must measure it there at the 50t cog. Why can't I? Of course, I can and will. No reason not too even IF I will not shift into that cog; it still requires the setting be made at that cog.
    The problem is, once you move the chain to the bigger chainring, the chain will be too short to put it on the 50t cog to make that adjustment, it will rip the derailleur or hanger off the frame if you try to shift into the 50t cog while in the big ring.


    Quote Originally Posted by deVries View Post
    Not necessarily. I'll be using the same two cogs each time, so all I have to remember is how many turns on the B Adjustment bolt I need to make between these two cogs. I think I can remember one number and which direction to adjust for each cog. PITA? Not for that part, anyway.
    You actually have to remember 2 numbers, the number of turns of the B screw, and then the number of turns of the limit screw, and the proper directions each time. These settings are pretty sensitive, so even a slight difference when you are switching settings could cause wonky shifting.

    Quote Originally Posted by deVries View Post
    Well, first off, I'm going to try-out the Oneup quick Switch system and see if this works. See my other post next to or near this post today for the details, as I think this quick switch system may be ideal. We'll see.

    And, again, I do want to thank you for reading my posts and offering your suggestions and critique, as you have been very helpful too. Thanks!
    That's a good plan. I have not used the One Up system, but it looks like a good product for those wanting to change chainrings often. Start out with one chainring and see if it's enough for you. If not, buy another chainring and another chain and set that up as the alternate. Changing the chain (with a quicklink) and chainring should only take a couple of minutes, and is much more foolproof than your previous plan.

    Or of course you could splurge for the brand new 2x12 Shimnao XTR drivetrain!

    Also, after reading your above post, I wanted to make sure you realize that the SRAM crankset takes a different bottom bracket than the Race Face. The Shimano BB will work for the Race Face crank, but you need an SRAM BB for the SRAM Dub crank.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny View Post
    That's a good plan. I have not used the One Up system, but it looks like a good product for those wanting to change chainrings often. Start out with one chainring and see if it's enough for you. If not, buy another chainring and another chain and set that up as the alternate. Changing the chain (with a quicklink) and chainring should only take a couple of minutes, and is much more foolproof than your previous plan.
    The Wolftooth Camo system is same concept as the One Up. I have it on my bike and like it very much. When I changed from 30T round to 32T oval I found I did not need to change chains. I expect a change from 28T to 36T would require a chain swap. BTW, oval is great for climbing as it really smooths out the stroke.

    Wolftooth uses 5 bolts instead of 4 and has stainless rings available which may be a benefit for a high stress cargo bike. It does not look like One Up has a stainless option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny View Post
    The problem is, once you move the chain to the bigger chainring, the chain will be too short to put it on the 50t cog to make that adjustment, it will rip the derailleur or hanger off the frame if you try to shift into the 50t cog while in the big ring.
    Yes, you hit that nail in the coffin.

    Only way around that is to also mark and measure the B Adjustment on the 42t cog in the smaller CR AFTER setting it correctly in the 50t cog position. Then, I could set the bigger CR for the B Adjustment in the 42t cog position using the previous measurement from the small CR. That should work. Maybe.
    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny View Post
    You actually have to remember 2 numbers, the number of turns of the B screw, and then the number of turns of the limit screw, and the proper directions each time. These settings are pretty sensitive, so even a slight difference when you are switching settings could cause wonky shifting.
    Agreed. It may be way too big a hassle doing this, especially, if I'm doing this on a weekly basis. I don't think I would want to be doing this more than once or twice a month, but I have no idea, really, whether I need to be doing this at all. For now, this has been a fun game of BSC ideas that hopefully will remain in the realm of thoughts and not actions.
    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny View Post
    That's a good plan. I have not used the One Up system, but it looks like a good product for those wanting to change chainrings often. Start out with one chainring and see if it's enough for you. If not, buy another chainring and another chain and set that up as the alternate. Changing the chain (with a quicklink) and chainring should only take a couple of minutes, and is much more foolproof than your previous plan.

    Or of course you could splurge for the brand new 2x12 Shimnao XTR drivetrain!
    If I have to go with two different chain lengths, then I'll compromise with just one CR or two CR's that don't require a different chain length.

    XTR is too rich for my bike blood, but XT I could go for. I'm intrigued by the electric gear changing too, but I'll only buy when the price gets down to XT levels.
    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny View Post
    Also, after reading your above post, I wanted to make sure you realize that the SRAM crankset takes a different bottom bracket than the Race Face. The Shimano BB will work for the Race Face crank, but you need an SRAM BB for the SRAM Dub crank.
    Thanks for being patient to explain things thoroughly. You've helped my understanding along to realize my ideas were probably too BSC for actual RL use, but it's fun for me to fantasize the crazy possibilities in idea land.

    Yeah, I know I've got to use two different BB's. I'm hoping to know which crankset to use by the time all my parts arrive next month, and then I can return the new unused crankset I don't need. IF I really like riding these Fat bikes, then I'll just save the spare parts for another Fat bike with a different geometry and purpose.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    The Wolftooth Camo system is same concept as the One Up. I have it on my bike and like it very much. When I changed from 30T round to 32T oval I found I did not need to change chains. I expect a change from 28T to 36T would require a chain swap. BTW, oval is great for climbing as it really smooths out the stroke.

    Wolftooth uses 5 bolts instead of 4 and has stainless rings available which may be a benefit for a high stress cargo bike. It does not look like One Up has a stainless option.
    The Camo system is similar, but the One Up us much faster to change chainrings. Going 2 teeth bigger is a very small change, the OP is talking about a 10t difference which will certainly require a different chain.

    I'm a big fan of the Wolf Tooth stainless rings, I have the direct mount ones on a couple of bikes.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny View Post
    The Camo system is similar, but the One Up us much faster to change chainrings. Going 2 teeth bigger is a very small change, the OP is talking about a 10t difference which will certainly require a different chain.

    I'm a big fan of the Wolf Tooth stainless rings, I have the direct mount ones on a couple of bikes.
    Agreed, only needing to loosen 4 bolts and not fully remove 5 would be faster, but only by a minute or two.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    The Wolftooth Camo system is same concept as the One Up. I have it on my bike and like it very much. When I changed from 30T round to 32T oval I found I did not need to change chains. I expect a change from 28T to 36T would require a chain swap. BTW, oval is great for climbing as it really smooths out the stroke.

    Wolftooth uses 5 bolts instead of 4 and has stainless rings available which may be a benefit for a high stress cargo bike. It does not look like One Up has a stainless option.
    The 5 bolt solution is more secure, and if I was planning long range touring and all day riding then it would be my first choice...UNLESS...I needed more than 34t in an oval. Oneup goes to 36t oval, BUT WT goes to 38t in a round. IF WT had gone to 38t in an oval, then I would have gone w/WT.

    But, since I'm looking for easier change-out of CR's and I can get a 36t oval, I decided to give Oneup a try. Plus, I have this "hacker idea" that maybe standard 104bcd CR's can be modified using a dremel tool to fit the adapter, and then I could go really big with a CR or use SS CR's from other sources.

    My problem is, to begin with, is I have no idea which CR size to choose, because I'm going to be using 2 different wheelsets w/different rim/tire sizes. I'm too much in experimental mode with no Fat bike experience to go on. I'm guessing I'll need between 32t and 38t, but maybe a 34t/36t will be perfect.

    I already will be able to choose from 30t round, 32t AB Oval, 34t 1U Oval, and a 36t 1U Oval. Obviously, I'll have plenty of range to experiment with, so I think I'll figure this out fairly quick. My problem is waiting for parts to arrive shipped from overseas, so I've got too much time on my hands "here" starting "forum debates" over my BSC ideas.

    Bwahahaha!

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny View Post
    Going 2 teeth bigger is a very small change, the OP is talking about a 10t difference which will certainly require a different chain.
    With my horizontal slotted track-style dropout it might allow for 2-4 CR size difference, since I can tension or slacken the chain depending on where I lock it down in the almost 1-1/2 inch long slot.

    1) For example, if I lock-down the rear axle at the very end [farthest back] of the track slot with the chain on the smallest CR AND I allow this chain to be as slack as possible but still function properly changing gears, THEN how large a CR could I use in place of the smaller one? How many teeth bigger? Because I could slide the rear axle forward about 1-1/4 inches forward with the large CR, and, also, take-up all the excess slack in the chain that could be taken-up within the design specs that have to allow for its "working range", so the chain would go from slack to taught, then how many teeth could I gain on the large CR before having to block-off the use of the 50t cog and use a longer chain?

    2) How many CR teeth could I gain by blocking-off and limiting the lowest gear to the 42t cog, and, also, NOT have to use a longer chain???

    Those are the two critical questions that would be nice to know the probable answers to. Anyone care to guesstimate???

    Let's just assume I can quickly adjust the B Adjustment and limit bolt to the correct positions, though, in reality, it may be too big a hassle to do depending on how often it needs to be done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    I can't wait til Devries gets his parts. Idle hands are the devil's workshop.
    Speaking of idle hands...

    How about a cheap hackers version that allows for cog change-out options by going with an 10/11 speed setup?

    Is there a road/mountain 10/11 speed system that allows the rear cassette to swap out individual cogs of different sizes, so one could customize those gears to ones liking? Also, this would allow for replacing just those cogs that get worn-out, so you don't have to buy a whole new cassette.

    Any good cassette/RD options for doing this with any brand, yes, even those beyond Shimano or SRAM?

    Let's do this for both 1x and 2x CR systems. Because if I could use 2 CR's with the same chain length too, then I could just manually keep these in 1x mode by changing the front CR manually by hand. Why? Because for my use I may not need to change CR's during the ride, so I could have these 2x chainrings in standby mode to use as 1x mode depending on ride conditions.

    But, most importantly, I also want to know about cassette flexibility. That's the key here. So if 1x10s or 1x11s has this with some brand, then let us know. I'm sure some people could save some money and get more flexibility than just going with SRAM/Shimano or SunRace 1x12s now.

    Who wins now taking under consideration the cassette flexibility noted above in the 10s and 11s for either 1x or 2x???

    Let the gearhead opinions start cranking...

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    The problem with that idea is that once one cog is worn then it's highly likely that there are others very close to that state.

    A couple of months ago my 10spd cassette was jumping in the seventh cog within a week or so the sixth and third were also jumping. By the time a new cassette had arrived in the post fourth and eighth were also worn and the whole cassette was all but unusable.

    It's worth putting any proposed cassette changes in to a gear calculator to see what the ratio jumps would be - "pre-made" cassettes aim to have constant gaps and ideally not too a large a gap since that affects cadence change, it's why road oriented cassettes have close ratios for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob_w View Post
    The problem with that idea is that once one cog is worn then it's highly likely that there are others very close to that state.

    A couple of months ago my 10spd cassette was jumping in the seventh cog within a week or so the sixth and third were also jumping. By the time a new cassette had arrived in the post fourth and eighth were also worn and the whole cassette was all but unusable.
    So, replacing individual cogs may not be so important as far as flexibility goes. Then, what about design and materials for greatest durability?

    What lower priced cassettes have the best design and materials for greatest durability?

    Is it Shimano, SRAM, SunRace, MicroShift, or some other brand? Recommendations?

  67. #67
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    1.) Large cogs on a cassette are clustered for a reason. It distributes the load on the freehub to reduce/eliminate gouging. I expect we all have gouging on aluminum our freehubs and it occurs at the individual cogs. The larger the cog, the larger the lever arm and thus the greater the force being applied to the freehub splines.

    2.) I see you are back on the concept of a multi chain ring crankset vs a One Up or Camo quick change system. I expect you are not going to find a multi chain ring crank that will allow you to install two chain rings with a close enough tooth count to utilize the same chain.

    Given your unquenchable desire for 2 chain rings and cost consciousness, why not just by a 2x10 setup and be done? It will give you a 22T small chain ring in the front which gives you the opportunity for a lower climbing gear than any 1x system will allow.

    Your frame is a TANK. The extra weight of a front derailleur and shifter is a non issue.

    Once your get that done you can have us all ponder things like converting the shifting from cables to hydraulic...

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    I would use a Raceface Aefect crankset for a 170mm rear wheel with a single Wolftooth ring and a Shimano 11 speed XT cassette. Easy.
    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    I can't wait til Devries gets his parts. Idle hands are the devil's workshop.
    Speaking of idle hands...

    Now that I've learned about some of the options and limitations for 1x12s SRAM let's consider 2x11s. This seems to be the other option that will actually offer more closer together or narrower gear shifting and can still get very wide gear range at the extreme high/low too.

    Going back to one of my BSC ideas is to run 2 CR's, ready to go mounted on a spider, but run each CR in 1x mode. So, I won't use a FD, and, instead, I'll just manually switch CR's by moving the chain over to the selected CR by hand as needed. Why? Because the type of riding I'll be doing won't need a blend of using both CR's during the same ride as a 2x w/FD, so I can run each separately in 1x mode.

    In my OP I mentioned using Shimano's MT8000 parts, so going back to that idea, why can't I use the MT8000 RD, RDShifter, and 11s RCass with 2 front chainrings?

    The MT8000 can be configured for 1x, 2x, or 3x, so I could use the Fat Bike Race Face Aeffect crankset or the SRAM DUO crankset to get this to work with the Oneup spider adapters (or Wolf Tooth or Race Face) for either 1x or 2x setup w/2-CR's.

    It seems the Shimano XT M8000 Shadow+ 11 Speed Long Cage Rear Mech Derailleur can easily handle 2 CR's upfront AND, at least, an 11s 11-42t+ cog cassette.

    Does anyone think this will work, so that I can use ONE chain, the same length, for two different sized CR's? Doesn't this setup offer more flexibility than SRAM IF I don't need a 1x12s setup???

    What do you think? Any better ideas or options with a different brand or solution?

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    Buy this (or the individual parts that you want from this):

    https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/.../rp-prod136645

    Mix in a 2x crankset that works for your bb width and be done. Install or not install the front derailleur and shifter, that is up to you. This really is not hard or rocket science.

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    Keep in mind that a front derailleur will keep the chain from jumping off non narrow/wide chain rings. I've lost track of whether your proposed chain rings are regular or narrow/wide.
    Latitude 61

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    Going back to one of my BSC ideas is to run 2 CR's, ready to go mounted on a spider, but run each CR in 1x mode. So, I won't use a FD, and, instead, I'll just manually switch CR's by moving the chain over to the selected CR by hand as needed. Why? Because the type of riding I'll be doing won't need a blend of using both CR's during the same ride as a 2x w/FD, so I can run each separately in 1x mode.
    Known as a stealth granny, so long as there isn't too big a difference between the two CRs then it will work.

    In my OP I mentioned using Shimano's MT8000 parts, so going back to that idea, why can't I use the MT8000 RD, RDShifter, and 11s RCass with 2 front chainrings?
    The MT8000 has a maximum capacity of 39T. Those 39 teeth can be on either the cassette or between the two chainrings. So you can have 32/22 at the front but that limits you to 11-40T at the back. If you want to fit a wider cassette then you can't have two chainrings. Well you could but let's say you fitted an 11-46T cassette, that's 35T difference so you are left with a range of 5T for the two chainrings - 32 & 27?

    Look at the specs (I got the above from the chainreaction page for the MT8000) and you'll see what you can and can't do.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob_w View Post
    Look at the specs (I got the above from the chainreaction page for the MT8000) and you'll see what you can and can't do.
    Thanks Bob for double checking my ideas, as I've obviously made some goofy mistakes thinking I might easily get the SRAM 1x12s to work with 2 chainrings using the same chain.

    Just an FYI as to why I'm posting both about the 1x12s SRAM AND using a 2x CR system too is because I want other people reading this thread to realize there might be a better option for their unique setup, AND I have 2 bikes now, this Fat "tank" frame build & an older hybrid 3x street/trail HT that might be due for an upgrade. Plus, IF I really enjoy riding this Fat bike, then I'm going to want a lighter more nimble one for trail use too w/shorter chainstay. So, this is why I keep gyrating between these 2 different setups. BUT... I'm definitely going with the 1x12s SRAM setup to begin with. I'm not backing-out of trying that too, since this is what most of you "here" have recommended. See, I do listen and follow "you guys" advice.
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    Buy this (or the individual parts that you want from this):

    https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/.../rp-prod136645

    Mix in a 2x crankset that works for your bb width and be done. Install or not install the front derailleur and shifter, that is up to you. This really is not hard or rocket science.
    But it IS fun to discuss BSC ideas too. That does not mean I will actually act on these BSC ideas, but I just can't help myself from considering such ideas. I guess I just enjoy such mind games, but I do listen to everyone's advice too. I do respect your experience and knowledge base beyond what I know now too. So, I will consider crazy and dumb ideas, but I will not necessarily act on those ideas IRL.
    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    Keep in mind that a front derailleur will keep the chain from jumping off non narrow/wide chain rings. I've lost track of whether your proposed chain rings are regular or narrow/wide.
    Yes, this is an excellent point. I will be using N/W CR's, but having a FD as a chain guide or guard is still a good safety feature to consider.

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    11 Speed Cassettes:

    There are several 11s with 42T, 46T, 50T, but I haven't added these in here. I'm trying to show the more narrower and closer together gear ranges less than 42T. These might be better suited for a 2x CR system or less hilly terrain.

    • Shimano XTR: 10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-33-39-45T
    • Shimano MTB: 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-27-31-35-40T
    • SunRace MTB: 11-12-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36T
    • Shimano Road: 11-13-15-17-19-21-23-25-27-30-34T
      (only better for closer together low range gearing)
    • SRAM Road: 11-12-13-15-17-19-22-25-28-32-36T
      (only better for closer together high range gearing)
    • SunRace: 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36-40T
    • SUGEK: 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-30-34-40T
    • microSHIFT: 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36-40T
    • ZITTO:

    12 Speed Cassettes:

    BTW, no one seems to have a more narrow range 12s w/closer gearing, which would be better for hybrid road/trail or less hilly terrain. Why not?

    • SunRace 12s: 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36-42T-50T
    • Shimano 12s: 10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-33-39-45-51T
    • Shimano 12s 10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-40-45T
    • SRAM 12s: 11-13-15-17-19-22-25-28-32-36-42-50T

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    I've yet to drop a chain when using a N/W chainring (from any manufacturer). That's doing everything from long distance XC racing to rocky alpine trails.

    12spd cassettes aim to provide as wide a range as possible because they are used with 1x systems. "close" ratio cassettes/drivetrains tend to be road oriented because road riders need to align their preferred/max power band to cadence and gearing. Again look at a gear calculator and plug in a road system and you'll see a lot of very close ratios, (purely random figures) 80", 82", 88", 92" but to use that progression you have to swap back and forth between the large and small chainrings as well as moving up or down one or more cogs on the cassette. 1x systems designers looked at that and thought: "how many people can tell the difference between 80 & 82 inch gearing?" so removed all the duplicate and near duplicate ratios and thus ended up with the wide range cassette.

    Basically there's a different design philosophy between 1x and 2x systems, attempting to mix the two goes against that and is likely to lead to problems as you'll fall outside the design parameters.

    One of your earlier points/questions about durability and design. What we are offered as consumers is the end product of a process not just something randomly thought up in a shed. The tooth profile will be just one out of many the manufacturer tested, similarly with the actual metals and finishes/coatings. The final choice will balance manufacturing cost, durability, weight, etc. That's not to say there's no possibility of coming up with something new but Shimano, Sram, Campagnolo have big departments that are dedicated to this and will be trying all new metallurgical techniques and treatments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob_w View Post
    Known as a stealth granny, so long as there isn't too big a difference between the two CRs then it will work.

    The MT8000 has a maximum capacity of 39T. Those 39 teeth can be on either the cassette or between the two chainrings. So you can have 32/22 at the front but that limits you to 11-40T at the back. If you want to fit a wider cassette then you can't have two chainrings. Well you could but let's say you fitted an 11-46T cassette, that's 35T difference so you are left with a range of 5T for the two chainrings - 32 & 27?

    Look at the specs (I got the above from the chainreaction page for the MT8000) and you'll see what you can and can't do.
    I checked Shimano's specs and it looks like there is a Longer Arm Version of this RD. Here is a snapshot I took and edited. Check-out the first column.

    PLEASE Help Picking Parts for Correct Chainline w/170mm D.O. Fat Cargo Frame-screenshot-153-.png

    Looks like there is A LOT of tooth capacity, or chain slack/taught range, AND I could use a higher cassette cog of 42T in 2x or 46T in 1x.

    Question is: Do you think I could run 1x11/40Tcog with a 46T CR AND use the same chain, same length, for 1x11/40Tc with a 32T CR? That's 14t CR tooth difference so it's less than 18T CR t-capacity for front CR's tooth difference, and 29T [40t-11t=rear cog difference] + 14T [46t-32t=front CR's difference] = 43T total tooth range which is under the 49T total capacity limit.

    So, can I use the same chain for both CR's 32t/46t, same length chain, and this will still work?

    TIA.

  76. #76
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    From those figures you are within the range for the front and within the total capacity of the rear mech so it should be fine.

    You might need a longer chain to handle the large chainring and rear cog - with a 114 link chain I'm removing at most four links for an 11-42T cassette with 30T chainring. I'd get the longest chain you can find (within reason!) and measure up. I'm assuming you know how to work out how to measure? Wrap the chain around large cog and large chainring without routing it through the derailleur and go to the next link up.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by deVries View Post
    I checked Shimano's specs and it looks like there is a Longer Arm Version of this RD. Here is a snapshot I took and edited. Check-out the first column.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Screenshot (153).png 
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ID:	1230324

    Looks like there is A LOT of tooth capacity, or chain slack/taught range, AND I could use a higher cassette cog of 42T in 2x or 46T in 1x.

    Question is: Do you think I could run 1x11/40Tcog with a 46T CR AND use the same chain, same length, for 1x11/40Tc with a 32T CR? That's 14t CR tooth difference so it's less than 18T CR t-capacity for front CR's tooth difference, and 29T [40t-11t=rear cog difference] + 14T [46t-32t=front CR's difference] = 43T total tooth range which is under the 49T total capacity limit.

    So, can I use the same chain for both CR's 32t/46t, same length chain, and this will still work?

    TIA.
    It will work but, it won't be a 100% ideal. You won't rip off your RD, and the shifts will be decent, but essentially it's going to be the same as a big-big and small-small combo on a 2x or 3x. So in the high gears the chain is going to be a bit slack, or in the low gears the derailleur is going to be a bit stretched out. But you're not going outside of what the rear derailleur was designed for and the clutch makes this less of an issue. XT comes in a 3x11 with an 11-40 and 40-30-22T crankset which fully maxes out the capacity of the rear derailleur.

    Also look at gear range, because that's what this is all about. A 46/32 with an 11-40 would give you 522% of range. That's "just" 22% more than an Eagle groupset with a 10-50 and a single chainring. I know, switching to XD is extra money, but so is buying a new groupset. The 3x11 XT has a massive 661% gear range, but sometimes an 11-40 or 11-42 with a double can have equal or just a hair more range than a 10-50 alone. That 10T makes a huge difference, and that 42-50 jump at the top is almost as big as a front shift.
    You could be cheeky and combine a Shimano 2x11 or 3x11 with an XD 10-42. To give you an idea 46x11 is the same ratio as 42x10.

    What I would also recommend is to use a gear calculator, look up what speed 46x11 would give you with the wheelsize you want to run. Be realistic, and think about how many times do you actually go that fast, and if at that speed do you really need to pedal or is gravity doing most of the job.
    It's changing, but sometims both regular dudes and big manufacturers like to over gear their bikes.

    However, the best would be to wait until your NX groupset arrives, install it, ride your bike for a while, draw a conclusion, and make changes if necessary. You've fully gone down the rabbit hole. It's easy, there are so many options, and there is so much info available on the internet, but you can't go anywhere without real world experience.

    I've built my current bike from the frame up about a year ago. I thought I knew what I wanted based on the research I did. But after riding it for a while I came to the conclusion that if I was to build the bike again I would do almost everything differently and that includes the gearing too.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by HollyBoni View Post
    However, the best would be to wait until your NX groupset arrives, install it, ride your bike for a while, draw a conclusion, and make changes if necessary. You've fully gone down the rabbit hole. It's easy, there are so many options, and there is so much info available on the internet, but you can't go anywhere without real world experience.

    I've built my current bike from the frame up about a year ago. I thought I knew what I wanted based on the research I did. But after riding it for a while I came to the conclusion that if I was to build the bike again I would do almost everything differently and that includes the gearing too.
    Thanks for a really brilliant post, especially, what you're advising here. I totally agree with your wise ideas.

    I am going to experiment with the NX and the 2-3 very different wheelsets I have before deciding exactly what CR's I'll really need.

    Right now, I'm hoping I can get by with just using the SRAM NX in 1x30-38 CR sizes, and this is my starting place to learn from.

    It's still fun to go down the rabbit holes "here", but I'm not going to go Wile E. Coyote myself off the cliff beyond our fun chase and gotcha games "here" online. Hopefully, I'm not going to rip-off my RD. Bwahahaha!

    Thanks, sincerely, for your help.

  79. #79
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    My wife's one of the 2016 Surly Wednesdays that came with a 2x10(? I think) Sram NX. It's fine for her, when it wears out we'll look at what to replace it with, possibly Eagle GX.

    When I first went 1x about six years ago it was 30T up front with 11-40T rear on a HT, it took a few months but I got stronger and it was increasingly rare that I used the 40T. After about a year I fitted a 32T chainring. We live in a hilly area with lots of steep off-road climbs.

    Just for reference my bikes (all roughly same wheel diameter) are currently:

    HT: 32T with 11-40T
    FS: 30T with 11-42T
    Fat bike: 26T or 28T with 11-42T (I'll swap between the CRs more on a whim than anything else)

    One thing I've not seen mentioned on this thread is that the cage on 12spd rear mechs does sit a fair bit lower than something like the Shimano medium cages and depending on where you ride might be more prone to rock/root strike. Some people seem to have problems, others don't. Having actually looked at the two systems side by side I don't think there's much in it but YMMV, etc.

  80. #80
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    Anyone care to comment on this guy's YT video: 4 BIG PROBLEMS Of 1x10, 1x11, 1x12 Drivetrains. 1 By Drivetrain - THE TRUTH

    The TRUTH About 1x12 Drivetrains Part 1

    The TRUTH About 1x12 Drivetrains Part 2

    Do you agree or disagree or have other opinions based on your experience?
    Last edited by deVries; 12-26-2018 at 07:03 AM. Reason: Added Part 2 YT Link

  81. #81
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    OK. . . He's annoying. I guess he does have a valid point about the chainline but you can set it up to be most efficient on the gears you plan to spend the most time on. Guess how many chains I've ruined? none. I replace my chain a couple of times a year because of stretch and corrosion.
    His other argument about running out of gear while going down hills at 40 kph, come on. It's a fat bike. Are you ever going to hit 40 kph? Ever?
    I like turtles

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    His other argument about running out of gear while going down hills at 40 kph, come on. It's a fat bike. Are you ever going to hit 40 kph? Ever?
    True enough.

    But I'm also going to be using a 2-3 inch tire with a 2nd wheelset, and I *might* be using an electric motor for some configurations, if possible, so I might want to be able to pedal with force up to 25mph. Also, my rim wheel size may be a smaller diameter of 24 inches, so this will affect gearing and cadence quite a bit too. That's why I need to be able to easily switch between different sized CR's.

  83. #83
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    This bike is gonna weigh 500 pounds when you get done hangin' all these electric parts and chainrings and whatnot on it.
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  84. #84
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    Your thread title was about choosing components with an eye on chain line. A multi chain ring setup will help to optimize chain line when at the cassette extremes. But, BUt, BUT, a properly set up 1x helps to minimize cross chain issue by placing the chain ring in the center of the cassette. 2x and 3x setups have chain rings offset from the center. That helps to improve the chain line on the range of the cassette for which the chain ring should be used, but exacerbates a poor chain line on the other end of the cassette.

    If you want to optimize chain line when riding then select a multi ring setup AND actively utilize the selection of chain ring to match the proper range on the cassette.
    Last edited by BlueCheesehead; 12-26-2018 at 07:41 PM.

  85. #85
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    EDIT: Somehow this post is out of order... it got posted above your post but should be below it "just below".
    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    This bike is gonna weigh 500 pounds when you get done hangin' all these electric parts and chainrings and whatnot on it.
    The e-motor [geared hub in front wheel] will only be used on the bike when I need it. Same thing for batteries -only attached to bike if e-motor is used, so the bike will be a dual use "cargo-tank" convertible pedal bike without the added motor/battery weight for just human pedal power too. But, yes, it will be 20-30-lbs heavier when batteries and motor are used.

    I'll be getting a totally different Fat bike frame designed for fun, play, trail use, etc. that is nimble and lightweight with a responsive geometry for trail handling IF I really enjoy Fat tires. But this FB is my "trucker" 18 wheeler utility hauler bike, and it ain't going to be a featherweight. It will go "the distance" and not get knocked-out by heavy loads or a second passenger.

    I got all my gearing parts now, but I'm still waiting for hubs to arrive and wheels to be built. Don't know what spokes I'll need. Maybe in a several weeks the wheels will be built IF I can get the correct spokes that are needed.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    Your thread title was about choosing components with an eye on chain line. A multi chain ring setup will help to optimize chain line when at the cassette extremes. But, BUt, BUT, a properly set up 1x helps to minimize cross chain issue by placing the chain ring in the center of the cassette. 2x and 3x setups have chain rings offset from the center. That helps to improve the chain line on the range of the cassette for which the chain should be used, but exacerbates a poor chain line on the other end of the cassette.

    If you want to optimize chain line when riding then select a multi ring setup AND actively utilize the selection of chain ring to match the proper range on the cassette.
    Since this bike is for shorter trips and not for long day rides or distance touring, I'm hoping it will be almost perfect for 1x12s use. The ability to change CR's in seconds or minutes in 1x or use it as a 2x depends on my testing and real world experience I'll be getting in the future. I just have to be patient to "road test" and find-out.

    But your points here are valid and make sense to me, and your ideas can and will help other readers with their gearing decisions too. So, thanks.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    Guess how many chains I've ruined? none. I replace my chain a couple of times a year because of stretch and corrosion.
    Which specific chain brands/types have you tried? Supposedly, the high-end SRAM/KMC chains are more durable and very corrosion resistant.

    Have you tried the gold Ti-Nitride ones yet? Or, gold & black? Much better or ?

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by deVries View Post
    Which specific chain brands/types have you tried? Supposedly, the high-end SRAM/KMC chains are more durable and very corrosion resistant.

    Have you tried the gold Ti-Nitride ones yet? Or, gold & black? Much better or ?
    On an Eagle group only use Eagle chains. Usually i'm not this finnicky but the Eagle chains do make a difference. GX will do, get something like the Park Tool chain scrubber, and keep it clean and lubed.
    Low/mid level chains are cheap, just replace them when needed.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by deVries View Post
    Which specific chain brands/types have you tried? Supposedly, the high-end SRAM/KMC chains are more durable and very corrosion resistant.

    Have you tried the gold Ti-Nitride ones yet? Or, gold & black? Much better or ?
    For 10/11 speed I like Connex by Wipperman. From the limited strength and durability testing out there they came out on top AND they have a reuseable master link. I use that link to take the chain off an clean it in a bath of mineral spirits.

    Yes, this test was conducted by Wipperman, but if others had different data you would think they would publish it to refute this test:

    http://www.cantitoeroad.com/assets/i...st_Results.pdf

  90. #90
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    I found out the SRAM GX 12s Cassettes use pin spacers and the higher quality more $ versions use one piece steel construction except for outer ring, which makes the entire cog spacing far more rigid and not prone to flexing. Therefore, GX and higher are more durable and rigid with less wear and tear issues.

    BUT the lowest cost NX Cassette does not use rigid pin spacer construction and each cog is not unified from one piece construction with all cogs connected. It uses a spider for the outer 3 cogs and central ring spacers for most of the cogs without a spider or pin spacers. Not good, imo.

    IF I had understood this ahead of time then I would have gotten the GX cassette, BUT if choosing the GX then you ALSO have to have an XD Driver hub too. It's a lot more expensive to do this, so I'm wondering about the quality of other 12s cassettes???

    Does anyone know if the other brands of 12s cassettes use pin spacers or more unified construction too?

    I think the SRAM NX may be too flimsy and flexible without the pin spacers or one piece unified cogs. Has anyone used the SRAM NX and can comment? Unfortunately, I got the NX, so I think it's not going to be very durable or rigid enough under loads in the outer cogs without those pin spacers.

    For more details about the differences between the different models and parts in the Eagle 12s line-up check this out:

    https://bikerumor.com/2018/06/23/com...nx-gx-x01-xx1/

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by deVries View Post
    I found out the SRAM GX 12s Cassettes use pin spacers and the higher quality more $ versions use one piece steel construction except for outer ring, which makes the entire cog spacing far more rigid and not prone to flexing. Therefore, GX and higher are more durable and rigid with less wear and tear issues.
    On GX and up SRAM uses pins or a one piece milled cassette because of XD. XD is almost like the old threaded standard. You need a one piece or pinned cassette (or a hybrid design like e13), or you somehow need to "connect" the cogs together because the freehub body itself can't provide as much support. The cogs need to support each other.
    NX uses the old spline standard, that's why it's not pinned. That's how cassettes have been made for ages. Most of them have some kind of a spider nowadays but some just use plastic spacers and every cog is basically independent. Just because a cassette is not pinned it's not going to wear faster... And yes i'm saying this as both an XD and HG user.

    You're overthinking things again. Wait for your parts and ride the damn bike.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by HollyBoni View Post
    You're overthinking things again. Wait for your parts and ride the damn bike.
    LOL. Agreed. I like rabbit holes...

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by HollyBoni View Post
    NX uses the old spline standard, that's why it's not pinned. That's how cassettes have been made for ages. Most of them have some kind of a spider nowadays but some just use plastic spacers and every cog is basically independent. Just because a cassette is not pinned it's not going to wear faster... And yes i'm saying this as both an XD and HG user.
    Yeah, but you're not saying it as an NX user, and I am. The thing is, it is much more flimsy and will wear more, imo. Why? The 12s Cogs are of necessity very thin in thickness, so there is a lot of potential flex that will occur. This might allow for additional wear and tear of cogs/chain, and allow for much lower shifting quality as the cogs wear further. I still don't think the NX is a good design COMPARED to a SunRace MZ90 12Sp 11-50t, which has strong supporting spiders for most of the cogs, even though, it is not for XD Driver. It is for Shimano, and, yet, it is much higher quality built.

    Also, ZTTO's New Version 5 cassette is a better option too, because it only uses one spacer on its 12s cassette w/spider support on the other cogs.

    SRAM's new NX will not be as durable as the Sunrace or ZTTO V5, IMHO. YMMV.

    NX is UNPROVEN now. It's too new to know how well it will do, but I wish I had understood that it's NX cassette was so cheaply built compared to SunRace's MZ90 or ZTTO's V5.

    I will soon find-out with NX, since I have that cassette to use now... Of course, we would need feedback on how well these SunRace/Ztto cassettes shift with an SRAM branded NX/GX shifter too???

    Ztto just below:
    PLEASE Help Picking Parts for Correct Chainline w/170mm D.O. Fat Cargo Frame-zitto-12s-cassette.jpg

    SunRace just below:
    PLEASE Help Picking Parts for Correct Chainline w/170mm D.O. Fat Cargo Frame-sunrace-mz90.jpg

    SRAM NX just below:
    PLEASE Help Picking Parts for Correct Chainline w/170mm D.O. Fat Cargo Frame-sram-nx-eagle-pg-1230-11-50t-12s.jpg

    Basic YT Review [few details no testing] on the SunRace 12s 11-50T Cassette:

    Last edited by deVries; 12-29-2018 at 04:01 AM.

  94. #94
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    I've installed a few of the 12 speed Sunrace cassettes on Eagle GX setups. Been great.
    I like turtles

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    I've installed a few of the 12 speed Sunrace cassettes on Eagle GX setups. Been great.
    What RD & shifter was used?

    I read elsewhere on this forum that downshifting to smaller cogs could cause skipping w/SunRace. It's possibly a bit narrower than the 12s SRAM cassettes??? Do you need spacers? Also, do you have to adjust the SRAM shifter to get this to work too, or just RD, or both, or ?

    Here are the quotes for the other thread about downshifting issues:
    Quote Originally Posted by GArUnE View Post
    Hi,
    I have a 1-12 system, with a SRAM X01 shifter, SRAM GX derailleur and the cassette its a SUNRACE MZ90 11-50.

    The up gear works fine, but the down shifting its a different story, from 1 to 2 OK , but from 2 to 3 the derailler moves but it don't shift, i go more one click down and it jumps (as predicted) to the 4 gear after that all the gears work fine.

    I have tried another sunrace cassette.
    The derailleur hanger its not bend.
    The chain is below 0,5.
    The b screw its OK.
    All the gears are indexed.

    what can cause this behaviour?
    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Bill View Post
    I had same thing with the Eagle drivetrain when I used the trigger shifter.
    Changing to an Archer Components D1x allowed me to correct for it. Almost seems like the shift from the second largest to next cog required slight larger cable pull than other shifts.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by deVries View Post
    Yeah, but you're not saying it as an NX user, and I am.
    You're saying it as a dude who has an NX cassette sitting in a box.

    Again. Ride the damn thing before you make big claims about durability and wear.

    At this point you're arguing with yourself that you bought the wrong parts. Gotta say, it's pretty hilarous to watch.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by deVries View Post
    What RD & shifter was used?

    I read elsewhere on this forum that downshifting to smaller cogs could cause skipping w/SunRace. It's possibly a bit narrower than the 12s SRAM cassettes??? Do you need spacers? Also, do you have to adjust the SRAM shifter to get this to work too, or just RD, or both, or ?

    Here are the quotes for the other thread about downshifting issues:
    Sorry. Just saw this. I use complete Eagle GX just with the Sunrace Cassette. You need to check derailleur hanger straightness and use the plastic tool to set the b screw and everything works great. Haven't had a single problem and three of them are on bikes who ride with me every Sunday. If something was acting funny I'd know about it.
    I like turtles

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