Lauf Carbonara Crown Race?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Lauf Carbonara Crown Race?

    Just received my Lauf Carbonara and the fork also has a lower headset bearing included. The steerer tube is flared at the crown and the fork fits into the headtube of my bike quite nicely with the included bearing w/o a crown race. The reason for my question is the fact that I've seen one owner claim that the race is not needed. I'm probably over thinking this but I don't want to jump to conclusions.
    There are three kinds of people: those of us that are good at math and those that are not.

  2. #2
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    Surely without a crown race then the fork is then rubbing on the out bearing shell as it turns? Not sure why leaving it out would be an advantage and the installation instructions certainly show one there.

  3. #3
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    Looks to me that the race is incorporated into the steerer. It's clearly flared as it meets the crown of the fork. Anyhoo, I installed the fork with the supplied bearing, sans any race and it fits and works fine. My guess is maybe Lauf has changed how they manufacture the fork and the installation instructions on their site has not been updated. Just a guess on my part.
    There are three kinds of people: those of us that are good at math and those that are not.

  4. #4
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    Aren't most races specific for the headset?

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    In my experience, no. Every manufacturer will tell you that you should be using their crown race, but in reality, as long as the angle of the race matches the angle of the bearing, I don't see why you can't mix them. I've done it before, and know several people who have.

  6. #6
    fat guy on a little bike
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinkers View Post
    Every manufacturer will tell you that you should be using their crown race, but in reality, as long as the angle of the race matches the angle of the bearing, I don't see why you can't mix them. I've done it before, and know several people who have.
    I agree with Shinkers, don't be Crown Racist...

    i mixed and matched FSA and Cane creek headsets/crown races on my Laugh with no issue.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinkers View Post
    In my experience, no. Every manufacturer will tell you that you should be using their crown race, but in reality, as long as the angle of the race matches the angle of the bearing, I don't see why you can't mix them. I've done it before, and know several people who have.
    Have you found where head set manufactures publish their bearing angle measurements?

    While I agree that "if" the angles are the same it should work, knowing if they are the same angle is a different story.

    Having looked into which crown race to buy for my Mastodon I quickly learned that there are many different shapes.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by onepivot View Post
    Looks to me that the race is incorporated into the steerer. It's clearly flared as it meets the crown of the fork. Anyhoo, I installed the fork with the supplied bearing, sans any race and it fits and works fine. My guess is maybe Lauf has changed how they manufacture the fork and the installation instructions on their site has not been updated. Just a guess on my part.
    Looking at the Lauf site, the race looks to be separate. This shows no race:
    Lauf Carbonara Crown Race?-lauf.png

    Perhaps a race was installed on your fork and it just happened to match your headset.

    Headset races are not universal. Why would any fork manufacturer integrate one unless they wanted to limit use to their own headset?

  9. #9
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    I bought a Lauf new a few years ago and it did not come with a crown race. You need to add one just like on any fork...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    Looking at the Lauf site, the race looks to be separate. This shows no race:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Perhaps a race was installed on your fork and it just happened to match your headset.

    Headset races are not universal. Why would any fork manufacturer integrate one unless they wanted to limit use to their own headset?
    My fork must be an updated design. I should have taken a pic prior to installation but it has a distinct flare where the tube meets the crown and the supplied bearing fits perfectly. I've seen a similar design on other carbon steerer tube forks. The reason for my original question and confusion was due to the confusing and contradicting instructions on the Lauf web site. I did send them an email but don't expect to hear from them this weekend.

    Anyhow, the installation went well w/o a race. I did a short ride afterwards and it works. Still, it's a little disconcerting.
    There are three kinds of people: those of us that are good at math and those that are not.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by onepivot View Post
    My fork must be an updated design. I should have taken a pic prior to installation but it has a distinct flare where the tube meets the crown and the supplied bearing fits perfectly. I've seen a similar design on other carbon steerer tube forks. The reason for my original question and confusion was due to the confusing and contradicting instructions on the Lauf web site. I did send them an email but don't expect to hear from them this weekend.

    Anyhow, the installation went well w/o a race. I did a short ride afterwards and it works. Still, it's a little disconcerting.
    So you are relying on a carbon flare to act as the race? While the bearing should not rotate on the race, it is surprising. As stated, all headsets do not use the same race. if I were you i would look for the proper race and put it on. Why risk a $900 fork on a $20 part?

  12. #12
    fat guy on a little bike
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    So you are relying on a carbon flare to act as the race? if I were you i would look for the proper race and put it on. Why risk a $900 fork on a $20 part?
    Not to mention he is risking his teeth... the crown race is thin and press on. If another owner claims the crown race is not needed, he is an idiot. While it may "work" without it, you are a fool not to install it.

    Lauf install guide clearly denotes crown race install-
    http://laufforks.com/media/23273/lau...ationguide.pdf

    From the install pdf:
    Install the headset (A) as per the manufacturer instructions.
    Put the crown race (B) on the forkís race seat (C).
    Then slide the fork into the headtube (D) and add compression ring (E)
    and spacers (F), before sliding on the stem, to achieve the desired bike fit.

    There are three kinds of people: those of us that are good at reading instructions so they can install forks properly and those that are not.

    You can get CC races for like $10 on amazon. Where is the popcorn emoji?!?

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodney View Post
    Not to mention he is risking his teeth... the crown race is thin and press on. If another owner claims the crown race is not needed, he is an idiot. While it may "work" without it, you are a fool not to install it.

    Lauf install guide clearly denotes crown race install-
    http://laufforks.com/media/23273/lau...ationguide.pdf

    From the install pdf:
    Install the headset (A) as per the manufacturer instructions.
    Put the crown race (B) on the forkís race seat (C).
    Then slide the fork into the headtube (D) and add compression ring (E)
    and spacers (F), before sliding on the stem, to achieve the desired bike fit.

    There are three kinds of people: those of us that are good at reading instructions so they can install forks properly and those that are not.

    You can get CC races for like $10 on amazon. Where is the popcorn emoji?!?
    Relax. I'm not an idiot and as stated prior I have sent an email to Lauf and apart from a test ride I am not going to ride the bike again until my question is answered. Thanks for all the input. I will report back.
    There are three kinds of people: those of us that are good at math and those that are not.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    Have you found where head set manufactures publish their bearing angle measurements?

    While I agree that "if" the angles are the same it should work, knowing if they are the same angle is a different story.

    Having looked into which crown race to buy for my Mastodon I quickly learned that there are many different shapes.
    Indeed.

    Look at these cane creek bearings on Universal:

    https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...&category=3961

    As well as these FSA bearings:

    https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...&category=3961

    Most of them have the angle listed at the end. 36x45 and 45x45 are the two that I've seen, and typically 36x45 is the most common. So as long as your crown race is a 36 degree race, and the correct diameter for the bearing (1.5 or 1.125) than there should not be a functional difference.

    Also, many bearings have the angle printed on the outside.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodney View Post
    Lauf has replied to me that, yes, the fork requires no crown race and that they need to update their instructions. My initial gut feeling was correct. You may finish your popcorn, this movie has ended
    There are three kinds of people: those of us that are good at math and those that are not.

  17. #17
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    Apology forthcoming?

  18. #18
    fat guy on a little bike
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    Quote Originally Posted by curtlo-dork View Post
    Apology forthcoming?
    nah. i based my response and opinion off my personal experience with the fork, and what was/is currently on the Lauf website.

    perhaps the OP could post up a picture of his fork? If he had did that originally, perhaps we could have avoided the back/forth.

  19. #19
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    I had a Lauf too, and required a real crown race. So I was figuring unless he bought a used fork, there was a reason Lauf included the lower bearings. I do wonder why they'd go that route though. A crown race seems like a logical way to protect carbon.

    Calling someone an idiot is hardly called for though. Original poster certainly didn't come off as someone who didn't know anything. And, he's proven right after all.

  20. #20
    fat guy on a little bike
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    Quote Originally Posted by curtlo-dork View Post
    I had a Lauf too, and required a real crown race. So I was figuring unless he bought a used fork, there was a reason Lauf included the lower bearings. I do wonder why they'd go that route though. A crown race seems like a logical way to protect carbon.

    Calling someone an idiot is hardly called for though. Original poster certainly didn't come off as someone who didn't know anything. And, he's proven right after all.
    didn't call him an idiot, scroll up and re-read.

    so, cliff notes: OP comes here says he doesn't need a crown race. We all say he does. OP does not take a pic of his fork, installs it anyway. OP emails Lauf and claims Lauf said he is correct.

    So, did Lauf change their design? No idea. I have not seen evidence otherwise. Until then, I can only go off my personal experience.

  21. #21
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    It's ok, we can all Lauf about it later.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by the-one1 View Post
    It's ok, we can all Lauf about it later.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodney View Post
    didn't call him an idiot, scroll up and re-read.

    so, cliff notes: OP comes here says he doesn't need a crown race. We all say he does. OP does not take a pic of his fork, installs it anyway. OP emails Lauf and claims Lauf said he is correct.

    So, did Lauf change their design? No idea. I have not seen evidence otherwise. Until then, I can only go off my personal experience.
    Based on my personal experience with the Lauf Carbonara I'd concur with all of the above points.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodney View Post
    didn't call him an idiot, scroll up and re-read.

    so, cliff notes: OP comes here says he doesn't need a crown race. We all say he does. OP does not take a pic of his fork, installs it anyway. OP emails Lauf and claims Lauf said he is correct.

    So, did Lauf change their design? No idea. I have not seen evidence otherwise. Until then, I can only go off my personal experience.
    Agreed, no one called him an idiot.

    Why Lauf would mold in a carbon taper to act as a race is beyond me.(except as a weight weenie way to reduce a stress riser) Seems they will be limiting which headsets can be used.

  25. #25
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    No need for apology from anyone. But I also felt no need to prove with a pic what I had explained. I was not about to remove the fork to satisfy folks I'd never met and decided to wait for the response from Lauf before I made any more posts. I was also certain that Lauf had changed their product based on the pics on their site compared to the fork I received. As I mentioned, I have seen this type of flared junction of the steerer tube/crown on other makers forks. That fact combined with the seemingly flawed instructions on the Lauf site made me wonder WTF was going on. Happy to learn that I made the right call by not blindly following instruction. Had I done so I likely would have damaged or even ruined my $990 fork.
    There are three kinds of people: those of us that are good at math and those that are not.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    Agreed, no one called him an idiot.

    Why Lauf would mold in a carbon taper to act as a race is beyond me.(except as a weight weenie way to reduce a stress riser) Seems they will be limiting which headsets can be used.
    Or perhaps that is evidence that the crown race compatibility issue has been overblown? If nearly every bearing that would go on that fork has a 36 degree taper, why not mold it in? It's no different than a frame manufacturer molding in integrated cups on their frames.

  27. #27
    fat guy on a little bike
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    Quote Originally Posted by onepivot View Post
    ... I also felt no need to prove with a pic what I had explained. I was not about to remove the fork to satisfy folks I'd never met ..
    Excellent attitude, way to contribute to the community...

    i still find it odd that Lauf would radically re-engineer their flagship product, and not put anything on their website about their latest innovation. No pics, no documentation, nothing.

    This thread is like the area 51 of fat forks...

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinkers View Post
    Or perhaps that is evidence that the crown race compatibility issue has been overblown? If nearly every bearing that would go on that fork has a 36 degree taper, why not mold it in? It's no different than a frame manufacturer molding in integrated cups on their frames.
    1.) As you stated in your previous post there are also 45 degree bearings.

    2.) While a carbon race may work fine for a properly loaded headset, it could be subject to wear if the headset were too loose.

    3.) Some headset races come with a seal to help keep dirt and water from entering from the bottom.

    Certainly if it was not a better solution Lauf would not do it, just like the advancement we saw in bottom brackets when they went press fit.

  29. #29
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    Sorry, Rodney. I'm a busy man with limited free time to prove to you (someone I've never met) that I am correct. You and your meme's may be cute to some but I'm done with you. Others on this thread have had legit questions and attitudes but you are in a different league. In due time I'm sure Lauf will update their site and give you the satisfaction that I can't/won't. Have a good life.
    There are three kinds of people: those of us that are good at math and those that are not.

  30. #30
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    Nevermind. Carry on.

  31. #31
    fat guy on a little bike
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    I waited to respond, as I was waiting for a response from Lauf regarding the update to the Carbonara. I just received that response this morning. Turns out the OP, onepivot, is correct. Lauf updated the Carbonara with a molded in crown race and is including a FSA lower bearing along with new fork sales. Below is a copy of my email to Lauf and the response from Bergur, Lauf's production manager:


    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf_email View Post
    Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2019 10:39 AM
    To: Sales <sales@laufforks.com>; Research & development (development) <development@laufforks.com>; Racing (racing) <racing@laufforks.com>
    Subject: Lauf Carbonara changes?

    Dear whom it may concern,

    I have been considering the Carbonara again for my wife's bike. Has their been any updates to it? While perusing the net, I found message board posts stating that you do not need a crown race on the Carbonara anymore, that the headset bearing sits directly on the fork. Is this the case?

    I have looked at your website, and at all the fork pages and all of the instructions mention that you still require a crown race on all your forks. If the Carbonara steerer is changed, do you have any picture or documentation for it?

    Thanks for your help!
    Rodney from the USA

    From: "Research & development (development)" <development@laufforks.com>
    Date: 3/29/19 10:02 AM (GMT-05:00)
    To: Sales <sales@laufforks.com>, "Research & development (development)" <development@laufforks.com>, "Racing (racing)" <racing@laufforks.com>
    Subject: RE: Lauf Carbonara changes?

    Hi Rodney from the USA,

    Iím glad you and your folks like our forks!

    You are correct. The lower headset bearing now sits directly on the built in crown race of the Carbonara. We ship them with this lower bearing from FSA

    https://protect2.fireeye.com/url?k=9...or-1-5-steerer

    Which bike are you planning on installing the Carbonara? Or if itís a custom bike, whatís your current headset? I can tell you with 99% confidence if the Carbonara will fit or not.

    Hereís a picture of the steerer/crown area
    Lauf Carbonara Crown Race?-new_lauf.jpg

    Cheers,
    Bergur from Iceland

    --
    Regards,
    Bergur Benediktsson
    Production Manager
    Lauf Forks ehf. Ėhttp://www.laufforks.com/
    tel. (+354) 8981354
    I responded to Bergur asking about the crown race seal, since he did not make mention of it. I will report back if/when he responds.

    I wanted to update the thread with info from Lauf as well as pictures so in the future when others have the same question, they can search out a proper answer.

    *Regarding an apology* to the OP, onepivot: that is going to be a resounding nope. He made us work/dig to get knowledge he could have offered up easily. I guess he has too limited time to help people he has not met...

  32. #32
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    ^^^ In other threads people seem to wonder what deserves rep (positive). IMO the above info qualifies. Thanks for digging...and for that:

    "On your deathbed you shall receive total consciousness" - Dalai Lama


  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by onepivot View Post
    No need for apology from anyone. But I also felt no need to prove with a pic what I had explained. I was not about to remove the fork to satisfy folks I'd never met and decided to wait for the response from Lauf before I made any more posts. I was also certain that Lauf had changed their product based on the pics on their site compared to the fork I received. As I mentioned, I have seen this type of flared junction of the steerer tube/crown on other makers forks. That fact combined with the seemingly flawed instructions on the Lauf site made me wonder WTF was going on. Happy to learn that I made the right call by not blindly following instruction. Had I done so I likely would have damaged or even ruined my $990 fork.
    So you asked for advice from the forum but provided no facts, only your description. People tried to weigh in on what might be going on and then you shut them down based on the fact you knew what you're doing. OK.....................

    Perhaps Lauf redesigned the fork because of self inflicted damage to the steerer/crown junction? I had a B!tch of a time setting the crown race on mine and am lucky I didn't damage the fork. Also remember worrying that I might've. Mikesee mentioned I should have put it in the freezer for a few hours the shrink it. I did that with another carbon fork and it worked very well!

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    ^^^ In other threads people seem to wonder what deserves rep (positive). IMO the above info qualifies. Thanks for digging...
    awe... thanks!

    Received more emails from Lauf. Bergur responded, and apparently they/he does not feel there is a need for a seal for the head bearing. Whatever goes in will just fall out...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf Production Manager View Post
    Hi Rodney,

    No, there is no seal. At least the muck that goes in will have easier way of getting out again.

    Cheers,
    Bergur

    --
    Regards,

    Bergur Benediktsson
    Production Manager
    Lauf Forks ehf. Ė www.laufforks.com
    tel. (+354) 8981354

    I also received this email from Sales @ Lauf

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf Sales View Post
    Hi Rodney!

    Apologies on the late reply.

    Great to hear from you. Definitely not all products are for everyone!

    Yes, you are correct. The Carbonara now has an integrated crown race, so no additional crown race needed. The integrated crown race makes the chassis stiffer, both lateral and torsional.

    You are also correct that our instruction still show the crown race additionally. This is not the case anymore, thank you for pointing it out. We will fix this asap.

    Best regards,
    Halla Jonsdottir

    Sales

    www.laufcycling.com I mobile: +354-8654503 I halla@laufcycling.com

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