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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean salach View Post
    What is your solution for keeping all that water from self draining into the users boots?
    To be fair, if you've fallen in the water your boots are already wet. I have seen open cell foams ability to drain off water. And as stated earlier I have used it in mock survival conditions. I don't think for the type of riding I do that those plusses are enough to get me to use it on a regular basis.
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  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by N8R View Post
    Agreed, maybe in the near future I can help get some foam clothing into others hands for testing. We'll see.
    I'm not waiting.

    Though, frankly, my interest in clothing for these sorts of extreme circumstances is mostly academic. The more time I spend outside in nasty conditions, the more I want to just stay inside a nice, warm building. But the proposed effectiveness of this foam clothing does have me intrigued, though I remain, I'll admit, skeptical.

    I can, however, be convinced. And nothing is as convincing as trying it for oneself and finding that the claims are true. Thus I begin my own experimentation.

    My hands are the most difficult body part to regulate when it's cold. They sweat when I'm riding hard, they chill due to the wetness. So it seems natural to start my experiments with gloves. And since there are appropriate gloves commercially available, it will save me the time and effort of making my own.

    I'm just not sure whether I should begin with these Trek gloves.

    Or these.
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  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by N8R View Post
    Fair enough
    You've used the example of falling completely into water several times in this thread. So many times that I don't need to quote it. You've also stated many times that all you have to do is wring out the water and then presto! ~2 minutes later you're warm again.

    Let's say that that happens -- you somehow fall through lake ice or into a stream, and end up soaked. Not only have you soaked your base layers, more importantly you've quenched yourself. Any heat that you had built up is gone in a splash, and it takes time and energy and effort to get the furnace going again.

    Just dunking a boot, maybe up to the knee? No problem. Whole body? Big problem.

    Sure, you can wring the foam out and start to produce heat again, but you can do this with any garment. That's not the issue I have. Our paths diverge because you continually postulate that there a negligible net effect to having been quenched in the cold water/slush, and there emphatically is, regardless of clothing worn.

    As with horsepower, the human body puts out an incredibly finite amount of heat, and rewarming *just* itself after a dunking is a tall order in a winter environment. Rewarming itself + a mass (we're talking pounds, at minimum) of wet foam in hours, much less the mere minutes you suggest, is simply inconceivable even at near maximal levels of effort. Yet you would have us believe it'll happen just sitting still.

    I'm not a physicist, but if I played one on TV I'd whip up a basic formula that shows the math on how much energy would be required to do this, and how much greater that amount is than what you're suggesting.

    I'll give one pertinent example: I use a very, very thin liner sock in my winter boots when riding. That thin sock can only hold so much moisture, thus once it becomes saturated that's it, there's nowhere else for water to collect. When I get to camp at night I remove that pair of socks and put a fresh, dry pair on my feet as I slip into my sleeping bag. That way my feet un-prune as I sleep, and when I wake I can simply slip my feet into my boots, cinch them down, then get moving again. Quick and easy. With me so far?

    So what about those thin, thin, thin (but very wet) liner socks I pulled off the night before? I would wring them out but they are so thin that even if I twist them into a tizzy not a single drop comes out of them. They're that thin, and commensurately light. But I can still feel the moisture in them when holding them in my hands. As soon as I remove them I pull up my shirt and place them directly on my belly, then tuck my shirt back in. So there I am, wearing a base layer, windproof layer, light puffy jacket, all inside of a -25* down sleeping bag, laying atop an insulated sleeping pad, with a belly full of hot dinner, and the socks are sitting *directly* on the skin of the hottest part of my body.

    Soaking wet they weigh a total of an ounce, each, and it still takes 4+ hours for my body heat to dry them out.

    Yet you're suggesting that pounds of sodden foam can both keep you warm when inactive and be dried out by the human furnace? I'm going to need hard evidence to ever be able to conceive of that as within the realm of theoretical, much less possible.

  4. #204
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    ...and I'm going to need an explanation of all those extra apostrophes you keep using while you're at it.
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  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean salach View Post
    What is your solution for keeping all that water from self draining into the users boots?
    I'm still working on my riding boots solution, because I want foam boots also. If there was a lot of water I would just take the boots off and squeeze them out. A water shedding gator could be used under the foam pant leg and over the boot to channel water to the outside of the boot, but I wouldnt use something like that unless it became a constant problem. Chances of ever falling in the water or being waterlogged that much are very rare in winter.

  6. #206
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    Sorry, but I just can't go back through 8 pages of this, particularly given all the redundancy. I'm trying to be open minded here, I realize there is always room for improvement and I applaud experimentation...if it's based on solving an existing problem in practical ways. Having said that, I'm curious - is this all being driven by a lack of good, existing options for cold weather cycling? Because I honestly don't think I have ever known a time in the entire history of cycling (and cold-weather outdoor gear in general) when more excellent options have existed.

    I also don't understand the whole "falling into water" thing, which you've mentioned many times, but that you also just stated is "very rare in winter."

    What kind of temperatures do you typically ride in?
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

  7. #207
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    I think I've mentioned falling into water more than he has, as I saw it as a possible negative with regards to dragging yourself out while wearing a 1/2" thick, ice-waterlogged foam suit.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    You've used the example of falling completely into water several times in this thread. So many times that I don't need to quote it. You've also stated many times that all you have to do is wring out the water and then presto! ~2 minutes later you're warm again.

    Let's say that that happens -- you somehow fall through lake ice or into a stream, and end up soaked. Not only have you soaked your base layers, more importantly you've quenched yourself. Any heat that you had built up is gone in a splash, and it takes time and energy and effort to get the furnace going again.

    Just dunking a boot, maybe up to the knee? No problem. Whole body? Big problem.

    Sure, you can wring the foam out and start to produce heat again, but you can do this with any garment. That's not the issue I have. Our paths diverge because you continually postulate that there a negligible net effect to having been quenched in the cold water/slush, and there emphatically is, regardless of clothing worn.

    As with horsepower, the human body puts out an incredibly finite amount of heat, and rewarming *just* itself after a dunking is a tall order in a winter environment. Rewarming itself + a mass (we're talking pounds, at minimum) of wet foam in hours, much less the mere minutes you suggest, is simply inconceivable even at near maximal levels of effort. Yet you would have us believe it'll happen just sitting still.

    I'm not a physicist, but if I played one on TV I'd whip up a basic formula that shows the math on how much energy would be required to do this, and how much greater that amount is than what you're suggesting.

    I'll give one pertinent example: I use a very, very thin liner sock in my winter boots when riding. That thin sock can only hold so much moisture, thus once it becomes saturated that's it, there's nowhere else for water to collect. When I get to camp at night I remove that pair of socks and put a fresh, dry pair on my feet as I slip into my sleeping bag. That way my feet un-prune as I sleep, and when I wake I can simply slip my feet into my boots, cinch them down, then get moving again. Quick and easy. With me so far?

    So what about those thin, thin, thin (but very wet) liner socks I pulled off the night before? I would wring them out but they are so thin that even if I twist them into a tizzy not a single drop comes out of them. They're that thin, and commensurately light. But I can still feel the moisture in them when holding them in my hands. As soon as I remove them I pull up my shirt and place them directly on my belly, then tuck my shirt back in. So there I am, wearing a base layer, windproof layer, light puffy jacket, all inside of a -25* down sleeping bag, laying atop an insulated sleeping pad, with a belly full of hot dinner, and the socks are sitting *directly* on the skin of the hottest part of my body.

    Soaking wet they weigh a total of an ounce, each, and it still takes 4+ hours for my body heat to dry them out.

    Yet you're suggesting that pounds of sodden foam can both keep you warm when inactive and be dried out by the human furnace? I'm going to need hard evidence to ever be able to conceive of that as within the realm of theoretical, much less possible.
    Are your thin socks made of synthetic material or wool? Synthetic will dry much faster because its hydrophobic and doesnt absorb water. If they're wool, they will take a long time to dry as wool is hydrophyllic. It's slow to take on water and slow to dry out. It really likes to hang onto the water.

    Foam is synthetic and only traps water in the air pockects in the foam. Water passes through the foam very easily and the foam loves to let it go. This makes a huge difference in the amount of energy required to dry the garment. Also the way you're drying your sock, there are alot of interfering layers the moisture has to travel through. With foam there is very little stopping moisture from escaping.

    That being said, if you were to fall into the water, it takes a while for the foam to completly dry. I've never tested the exact time but Jim Phillips and others have and I believe it takes about 8 hours or so. When I jumped in the river, I slept all night completely wet , And I was still somewhat wet the next morning. Sleeping your body produces much less heat though.

    To me the amount of time it takes for the foam to dry isnt all that relevant. The critical thing is that I'm warm and safe. The main thing to understand is that drying the foam out doesnt take all that much extra body heat, its just a natural side process of your body heat leaving your body and passing through the moisture and carrying it out. This may seem to not make sense but all your body has to do is quickly heat any moisture immediately against your skin, which isnt much. There is so much insulating air between the remaining moisture in the foam that it doesnt suck heat from your body at a significant rate.


    Your body heats the immediate contact moisture, and you are warm in minutes or less. Then your body just continues to release the normal amount of body heat it usually does. This normal rate of body heat passes very very slowly through the moist insulated foam and eventually removes all the moisture to dry out the foam.

    Think of it this way, once your body heats up the initial moisture in contact right against your skin, because there is so much trapped insulating air in the foam beyond that initial layer, any moisture past that further out is not significant. The body heat that has left your body and passed through that first initial contact moisture layer, it doesnt care whether its passing through damp foam or directly into freezing cold air. Once its left your body, its wasted or rather spent heat. The damp foam does not suck additional heat from your body, it actually insulates,slows heat loss, and you stay warm. That's how your core temp recovers so fast with the foam.

    I know I keep saying it, but I will get around to making some videos showing it in action. I promise if you experienced this in person, I would have you a believer in about 2 minutes or less. Is there anyone here in this forum that lives in the S.L.C Utah area or south of there who wants to join me and validate this? If you're brave enough we can go over to Utah lake or a nearby river and document this on video and post it here. Looks like I need an independent third party witness. Anyone up for the challenge?

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by N8R View Post
    Think of it this way
    Unsubscribing, so that I can spend my limited free time on more reality-based endeavors. Good luck.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean salach View Post
    What is your solution for keeping all that water from self draining into the users boots?
    I'm interested in a solution for that too.

    Currently I use waterproof socks in sandals because the sandals drain quickly. Getting rid of water does seem to keep things warmer.

    I quite often tramp through shallow icy water up the mountain, so I tried various methods. The warmest was the one that did not retain water, ie sandals. The disadvantage is no foot protection from rocks, and the sole is not the grippiest.

    I've thought of using a boot and drilling big holes in it. If water can get in, then make it easy for it to get out.




    (This of course, is for Scottish conditions)
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  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    I'm interested in a solution for that too.

    Currently I use waterproof socks in sandals because the sandals drain quickly. Getting rid of water does seem to keep things warmer.

    I quite often tramp through shallow icy water up the mountain, so I tried various methods. The warmest was the one that did not retain water, ie sandals. The disadvantage is no foot protection from rocks, and the sole is not the grippiest.

    I've thought of using a boot and drilling big holes in it. If water can get in, then make it easy for it to get out.




    (This of course, is for Scottish conditions)
    Wading boots are designed to drain water very quickly, not absorb water into the materials, and protect feet and ankles. I'm sure there are plenty of fishing shops in Scotland. Wading Boots & Men's Studded Wading Boots : Cabela's

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    Sorry, but I just can't go back through 8 pages of this, particularly given all the redundancy. I'm trying to be open minded here, I realize there is always room for improvement and I applaud experimentation...if it's based on solving an existing problem in practical ways. Having said that, I'm curious - is this all being driven by a lack of good, existing options for cold weather cycling? Because I honestly don't think I have ever known a time in the entire history of cycling (and cold-weather outdoor gear in general) when more excellent options have existed.

    I also don't understand the whole "falling into water" thing, which you've mentioned many times, but that you also just stated is "very rare in winter."

    What kind of temperatures do you typically ride in?
    Right, so the limitation with current state of the art winter clothing is it's moisture handling characteristics. You layer up and have to regulate layers to limit the amount you sweat. If you sweat too much, you clothing gets saturated, and you get cold. For many this isnt too big of a problem as long as you keep moving, and active. Thats how most cyclist ride in the cold.

    What the foam does is it allows you to only have one layer, and it allows moisture to pass through. It maintains virtually all of its loft while wet, so it loses very little insulation. What this means is you can work as hard as you like, sweat as much as you want, and you wont get cold. You can stop mid ride and sit around doing nothing, and you will stay warm.

    The purpose of the water test is only to demonstrate that you can get completely wet and still be warm and safe in the foam. Its showing that the traditional fear of getting wet in the cold is irrelevant with foam clothing. Yes falling into water is rare, and thats not the point, just a demonstration.

    Foam clothing opens new possibilities for adventure riders, bikepackers, in the winter. Imagine going out for days on end in the middle of winter and not really worrying about having to dry layers, or worrying about moisture building up night after night while sleeping.

    If you're just going on a ride for a few hours in the day in sub 30 deg F weather, foam is nice but not really needed, even though it still has huge benefits described above. For multiday winter bikepacking, its a complete game changer. Many are finding this hard to believe. Once I get some videos made and perhaps a few locals on here to experience it for themselves, I think some minds will be opened towards this.

  13. #213
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    Most of the big shoe companies make water shoes. Here is a picture of one of Merrell's:

    Foam Winter Clothing-mrlm-j35557-043015-s16-hero.jpeg

    Five Ten also makes water shoes. Both of those company's boots fit my feet well, so that is where I looked. Vik B was looking for some biking shoes for water, but he was looking more for something that would dry out quickly once you were done going through the water. I don't think anyone came up with a good solution for that.

    I'm not a big fan of neoprene since I spent so much time in my formative years wearing it, but neoprene socks are perfect for this use.

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Unsubscribing, so that I can spend my limited free time on more reality-based endeavors. Good luck.
    Sorry to hear Mike is checking out. I was enjoying the challenge of trying to make him a believer. Still plenty of skeptics here though so pressing forward.......more to come.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by N8R View Post
    Sorry to hear Mike is checking out. I was enjoying the challenge of trying to make him a believer. Still plenty of skeptics here though so pressing forward.......more to come.
    I have a feeling you'll never find yourself having to search for skeptics....

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by N8R View Post
    Right, so the limitation with current state of the art winter clothing is it's moisture handling characteristics. You layer up and have to regulate layers to limit the amount you sweat. If you sweat too much, you clothing gets saturated, and you get cold.
    At the point that you've allowed your clothing to get 'saturated,' you've already made a rookie mistake. Pro-active moisture management means adjusting/venting your layers before you get saturated. This isn't a "shortcoming of existing technology" problem, it's an inexperience problem. Wool and various synthetics already do a great job of managing moisture, but like all technologies, they are subject to user error.
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

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    I'm really looking forward to seeing this video.

    Send me a sample, I will make a totally unbiased test video myself by jumping into a cold mountain lake. With quality microphones and lighting even.

    Also with a roaring fire, several hot water bottles and a hot running car nearby to jump into. Because unless the particular foam works like a neoprene suit, it is gonna wick a lot of heat away with that water.

  18. #218
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    Submersion is clearly not an issue.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQCELi4Ylwc

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-iMRWfVgFM


    I'm skeptical of their temperature claim in this video. Water generally doesn't look like that at -18F, and no one is getting frost on lashes or elsewhere. But even if it's 35F, it proves the system for non active use.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCH9l4zF1HU

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean salach View Post
    Wading boots are designed to drain water very quickly, not absorb water into the materials, and protect feet and ankles. I'm sure there are plenty of fishing shops in Scotland.
    Thanks for that. I'll take a look.

    Never thought of looking at what fishermen wore - around here all I see is waders.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Thanks for that. I'll take a look.

    Never thought of looking at what fishermen wore - around here all I see is waders.
    Most of those boots are designed to work with 'stockingfoot' waders, which basically just have neoprene or waterproof laminate(Gore Tex) socks attached to the bottom of the legs instead of boots. The ones with boots are called bootfoot waders.

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean salach View Post
    Most of those boots are designed to work with 'stockingfoot' waders, which basically just have neoprene or waterproof laminate(Gore Tex) socks attached to the bottom of the legs instead of boots. The ones with boots are called bootfoot waders.
    My ancestors used to get around the mountains in brogues (not the fashion items of these day) which were basically unlined shoes with plenty drain holes, and used a thick woollen stocking which hadn't been stripped of their natural lanolin. So the wool worked just as well as it did on its original owner and didn't retain much moisture.

    I used to take socks like that for granted. Made from wool sheared and spun on the croft (farm) and then knitted by great grandparents. Commercially available wool is too processed and I haven't seen anything like it for years, and now everyone wears wellington boots.

    I believe the original Highland kilt must also have kept its lanolin because it was all that the men took into the hills even when sleeping out. It was noted by southern commentators that the Highlanders would sleep out even in blizzards with just their kilts wrapped around them. Only trouble is cycling in a kilt is hard enough, but doing it in the great kilt would be almost impossible I think.

    The idea of being able to survive in cold wet conditions without the faff of carrying several changes of clothing or shelter is very attractive
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  22. #222
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    I imagine the actual great kilts the highlanders wore weighed a lot. Three body lengths and blanket width? If it was made of thicker wool, I could totally see that being warm enough to sleep in outside. I wonder if there's a good way to add the lanolin back into commercially processed wool?

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    At the point that you've allowed your clothing to get 'saturated,' you've already made a rookie mistake. Pro-active moisture management means adjusting/venting your layers before you get saturated. This isn't a "shortcoming of existing technology" problem, it's an inexperience problem. Wool and various synthetics already do a great job of managing moisture, but like all technologies, they are subject to user error.
    Its a limitation of existing technology. Proactive moisture management might be an expected maintenance protocol for some, but for many, myself included, its a hassle and extra thing to worry about. I'm experienced and I know how to layer properly. Messing with layers takes away from the outdoors experience IMO. My illustration of how layers will get saturated if not regulated was to demonstrate its limitations. Yes, an experienced person can work around these limitations, but they are still very real.

    For those interested in an easier, less maintenance way, foam clothing is a one layer system that you wear and forget about. No regulating, doesnt matter if you get wet. Little room for user error. Its experienced person and rookie friendly alike.

  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by N8R View Post
    ....For those interested in an easier, less maintenance way, foam clothing is a one layer system that you wear and forget about. No regulating, doesnt matter if you get wet. Little room for user error. Its experienced person and rookie friendly alike.
    Those are some mighty bold claims. I'll believe it when I see it. Until then, they are just bold claims.

    But seriously, taking off a layer, or opening some pit zips, before you become saturated with sweat and start courting hypothermia "takes away from the outdoor experience?" Ok....
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    Those are some mighty bold claims. I'll believe it when I see it. Until then, they are just bold claims.

    But seriously, taking off a layer, or opening some pit zips, before you become saturated with sweat and start courting hypothermia "takes away from the outdoor experience?" Ok....
    For me, yeah, it takes away from the experience. Its one more thing/system for my mind to be distracted by and have to think about. My level of physical exertion is always changing. Work hard, sweat alot, then sit around for a while, take a break, enjoy the surroundings. I've used both systems, and foam clothing makes the outdoor winter experience far better, but I can only speak for myself.

    For you, yes they are merely bold claims, for me and others using foam clothing they are fact and reality. Whether they remain as claims to you is entirely up to you. Makes no difference to me. This thread is a resource for those who wish to find out for themsleves, the path is laid out and clear.

  26. #226
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    My intent for this thread , as stated, several times, is to be a resource for others who wish to use foam clothing. I don't mind answering questions and addressing valid concerns, but many of the same criticisms keep being brough back up, and I answer them the same everytime. This is pointless and cluttering up this thread for those who dont wish to read through it all.

    I'm not going to keep answering questions or comments that have already been covered multiple times. The info is already here. I'll still gladly discuss new and pertinent comments that havent been addressed. Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by N8R View Post
    I'm still working on my riding boots solution, because I want foam boots also.
    How about these vintage moon boots from 1985?

    Foam Winter Clothing-il_570xn.293106097.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Thanks for that. I'll take a look.

    Never thought of looking at what fishermen wore - around here all I see is waders.
    And you can keep your feet dry by wearing these underneath said boots.

    Neoprene Wading Socks / Neoprene Guard Sock -- Orvis

    Sincerely,

    A fly fisherman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post

    I'm not a physicist, but if I played one on TV I'd whip up a basic formula that shows the math on how much energy would be required to do this, and how much greater that amount is than what you're suggesting.
    I'm not, but let's give it a try. The most important factors: how much water is left in contact with your body after wringing out the foam? Based on Mike's concerns, everything hinges on this.

    Let's say the wearer (@ 37 deg C) is fully submerged into freezing cold water (0 deg C) and completely soaked before being removed and the foam clothing drains

    Assumption: Wearer has light base later on that is not able to shed 100% of the water, so assume 0.5L of water is left in contact with the skin.

    0.5L = 500cc = 500g of water. We know that it takes 1 calorie (or 0.001 dietetic Calorie) to raise the temperature of 1g of water by 1 deg C, so it becomes a simple multiplication problem:

    (500 x 37)/1000 = 1,850 dietetic calories

    So, the cost of energy for the assumed mass of water the body would have to heat isn't astronomical, but is still very high before figuring in conversion efficiency. On top of this, there is still the constant "load" of heating the air breathed, running the brain and shivering.


    The biggest question I would have is this: could warming the water draw more energy than the body could generate and promote hypothermia even though there is enough "fuel"?

  30. #230
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    Here's a video demonstrating how the clothing performs when being completely submerged in water in the winter. The victim goes in the water 3 times, and each time recovers, within minutes or less. In regular winter clothing you would be severly shivering and if you didnt get dry and warm, hypothermia would eventually set in. I have done this same test but even more extreme, I slept outside all night wet in the foam and never got cold. I can validate that this is real, and like I said I will prove it in person to anyone who wants to meet me in Utah. You can even try it yourself with my clothing if it fits.

    https://youtu.be/Et8vHvFX3yI
    Last edited by N8R; 12-11-2015 at 09:01 PM.

  31. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by N8R View Post
    Here's a video demonstrating how the clothing performs when being completely submerged in water in the winter. The victim goes in the water 3 times, and never gets anywhere near hypothermia. I have done this same test but even more extreme, I slept outside all night wet in the foam and never got cold. I can validate that this is real, and like I said I will prove it in person to anyone who wants to meet me in Utah. You can even try it yourself with my clothing if it fits.

    https://youtu.be/Et8vHvFX3yI
    It can take hours to get hypothermia, even in subfreezing water. Not for your appendages to get numb or for you to gasp in a bunch of water when you get in the water in the first place, but this disregards all the science/medical evidence of hypothermia. This why one method to "live" is to place your sleeves/arms on the ice and allow them to freeze to the ice, because your body pulls the blood into it's "core" and that temp is maintained for a quite a while, again, even in subfreezing water. The guy isn't going to get hypothermia based on what they are doing in the video.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  32. #232
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    I met with the owner of Fortress Clothing today, and he's interested in letting me test their clothing for winter cycling applications. My biggest concern of the comercially made clothing has been fit. I was able to try on their Clothing and I was extremely surprised that the fit was much better than I thought it would be. I was able to borrow a set for testing, and went on a ride tonight.

    To sum it up, I was surprised that the clothing fit and worked extremely well, enough to where I would have no problem using it as my main winter cyling clothing. I'm going to do more extensive long term
    testing with it, but my initial impression is their clothing is going to work great for winter cycling for those who dont want to make DIY clothing. Hoping to get some cycling videos with it made before the new year.

  33. #233
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    Dont know why but my phone keeps double posting and wont let me delete the duplicate only edit the text. Sorry in advance for any double posts.

  34. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    It can take hours to get hypothermia, even in subfreezing water. Not for your appendages to get numb or for you to gasp in a bunch of water when you get in the water in the first place, but this disregards all the science/medical evidence of hypothermia. This why one method to "live" is to place your sleeves/arms on the ice and allow them to freeze to the ice, because your body pulls the blood into it's "core" and that temp is maintained for a quite a while, again, even in subfreezing water. The guy isn't going to get hypothermia based on what they are doing in the video.
    Hypothermia isnt a switch that turns instantly on. Its progressive. The initial stages of hypothermia are when you start to shiver, it progressively worsens from there as your core temp drops. It doesnt take hours for hypothermia to set it. The moment you start shivering its begun.

    If you did what the guy in the video did with normal clothing, you would be very cold after getting out of the water and remain cold. It would quickly worsen and you would start shivering very soon after getting out of the water. Hypothermia takes minutes to start and its down hill from there. Depending on the temp, it can take a while to get to the extreme stages of hypothermia, but it initially starts to set in very quickly.

    I've been wet for hours and hours on end wearing the clothing, slept wet in it 8 plus hours. No shivering ,no hypothermia.

  35. #235
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    Velobike, I sent you a PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by N8R View Post
    Hypothermia isnt a switch that turns instantly on. Its progressive. The initial stages of hypothermia are when you start to shiver, it progressively worsens from there as your core temp drops. It doesnt take hours for hypothermia to set it. The moment you start shivering its begun.

    If you did what the guy in the video did with normal clothing, you would be very cold after getting out of the water and remain cold. It would quickly worsen and you would start shivering very soon after getting out of the water. Hypothermia takes minutes to start and its down hill from there. Depending on the temp, it can take a while to get to the extreme stages of hypothermia, but it initially starts to set in very quickly.

    I've been wet for hours and hours on end wearing the clothing, slept wet in it 8 plus hours. No shivering ,no hypothermia.
    Point is, your original post was misleading. That guy wasn't going to get hypothermia with a quick hop in.

    True hypothermia isn't feeling cold, it's a measured drop in your core temperature, which you can't measure externally.

    Watch the whole video. Shivering and being extremely uncomfortable (feeling cold, numb, but above 28 degrees extremities), doesn't mean your core is cold. It may be, or you may just be extremely uncomfortable as your body maintains it's core. What happens first, and why you survive for hours before your core drops, is your body maintains your core while it discards the more non-essential parts of your body (fingers, arms, feet, etc).

    People die in cold water because they gasp water into their lungs and drown during the "shock" of entering the water.

    Yes, if you hang around long enough, your core will drop and you'll die from that too, but it's not the biggest danger as far as inadvertently falling into the water in the winter.

    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  37. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
    And you can keep your feet dry by wearing these underneath said boots.Neoprene Wading Socks / Neoprene Guard Sock -- Orvis
    Sincerely,A fly fisherman.
    Those tend to be not very comfortable in bike shoes, I use 2mm neoprene booties with a smartwool sock inside for wicking. http://amzn.to/1Qkhljb

  38. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Point is, your original post was misleading. That guy wasn't going to get hypothermia with a quick hop in.

    True hypothermia isn't feeling cold, it's a measured drop in your core temperature, which you can't measure externally.

    Watch the whole video. Shivering and being extremely uncomfortable (feeling cold, numb, but above 28 degrees extremities), doesn't mean your core is cold. It may be, or you may just be extremely uncomfortable as your body maintains it's core. What happens first, and why you survive for hours before your core drops, is your body maintains your core while it discards the more non-essential parts of your body (fingers, arms, feet, etc).

    People die in cold water because they gasp water into their lungs and drown during the "shock" of entering the water.

    Yes, if you hang around long enough, your core will drop and you'll die from that too, but it's not the biggest danger as far as inadvertently falling into the water in the winter.

    No, my original post was not misleading. I've been clear and acurate about what the foam clothing does. Anyway you look at it, foam clothing prevents hypothermia where other clothing systems will lead to it if you get wet and stay wet in those temps. The point of the video I posted isnt to say hey look i jumped in the water and didnt get hypothermia right away. The point is to show that after being submerged and getting out, your body recovers right away and then stays warm, maintains its core temp without the extremities being effected.

    If you got submerged like that in those temps with regular winter clothing, after getting out of the water you'd be in big trouble fast if you didnt get out of the wet clothes and into dry ones. You would have no insulation and the heat would be getting sucked rapidly out of your body. Thats what the video demonstrates, you get out, you warm right back up in a minute, and carry on without worry of doing anything. Not so with other clothing.

    With the foam, your body doesnt have to sacrifice body parts to keep the core temp up. With conventional winter clothing, If you somehow manage to not drown and you get out of the water, your still going to be in trouble if you dont get into dry cloths, especially if your in a remote location.

  39. #239
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    Jayem, I re-read my video post and understand what you're talking about. I'll edit it to be more clear. I wasnt implying that he was avoiding instant hypothermia by a quick plunge in the foam. I meant that he got out and was immediately warm and that hypothermia was avoided, whether it be the intial stages or full blown.

  40. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by N8R View Post
    No, my original post was not misleading.
    This part was:
    Here's a video demonstrating how the clothing performs when being completely submerged in water in the winter. The victim goes in the water 3 times, and never gets anywhere near hypothermia.
    I just showed you the science of why you won't get hypothermia in that short of a period of time.

    This and other topics were covered in depth during my wilderness first aid course here in Alaska a few months back. The teacher has multiple certifications/credentials, works in the ER at the hospital and is a guide on Denali. Now, we could have been just making it all up I suppose, but everything we talked about seemed to be rooted in science and medicine and could be backed up. This is one example.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  41. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by N8R View Post
    Jayem, I re-read my video post and understand what you're talking about. I'll edit it to be more clear. I wasnt implying that he was avoiding instant hypothermia by a quick plunge in the foam. I meant that he got out and was immediately warm and that hypothermia was avoided, whether it be the intial stages or full blown.
    Ok, but that's different from what you were claiming. Thanks for making it clear now. The reason I posted that was because there's often a misconception that your body core temp is plummeting as soon as your extremities feel cold. This is almost always not the case and it takes a lot more for the core to drop. There's the opposite misconception that if you keep your core warm, that your extremities will stay warm, but extreme environments and demands (like holding cold metal indefinitely) can easily overpower your body's ability to send warm blood to that extremity no matter how well you "protect the core", at which time it just says "screw it, I'm done with you".


    This all begs the question though, if you fall in the water with the foam clothing and can't get out immediately (a reality of falling through ice), will the results be any different?

    If not, then you are carrying around a lot of foam and mobility restriction that may not be critical to surviving a water dunking. You might be extremely uncomfortable if you fell into the water without the foam, but it may not be as life threatening as we are led to believe.

    How realistic is it that you are going to get out of the water quickly? I don't know the answer to this.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  42. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Ok, but that's different from what you were claiming. Thanks for making it clear now.


    It also begs the question, if you fall in the water with the foam clothing and can't get out immediately (a reality of falling through ice), will the results be any different?
    Well, we're really just talking semantics of what hypothermia is and I used it in the wrong way. When you said my original comment, I though you were refering to the #1 comment in this thread, not the video post, so my bad. Edited for clarity, I'd never purposely try to mislead anyone and I'll own up when I make an honest mistake.

    As far as falling in the water, if you cant get out immediately with the foam, you'll be ok for a while, though it wont be pleasant. As long as your in the water the foam wont insulate and you might as well not be wearing it. While testing, Jim Phillips stayed in the water for over 15 minutes with the foam, and when he got out he recovered just fine in the wet foam so I know you can stay in a while and be ok.

    That being said, to me the main draw of foam clothing isn't about jumping in the water or saving you if you fall through the ice. Thats just an extreme demonstration that shows how well it handles moisture and being wet. Its showing that when its wet, it hardly loses any insulating capability, which is whats important.

  43. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by N8R View Post
    As far as falling in the water, if you cant get out immediately with the foam, you'll be ok for a while, though it wont be pleasant. As long as your in the water the foam wont insulate and you might as well not be wearing it. While testing, Jim Phillips stayed in the water for over 15 minutes with the foam, and when he got out he recovered just fine in the wet foam so I know you can stay in a while and be ok.
    Well, the guy that stayed in the freezing water for 15 minutes got out and changed his clothes to dry clothes inside a heated environment, he wasn't "just fine", it took an hour or so for his core to rise that one degree that it dropped. So something doesn't add up here. Foam doesn't generate heat and your body only generates so much, so you can't have something from nothing.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  44. #244
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    If you fall into water in extreme cold, as long as you can get out and maintain your core temp, you should be ok, regardless of what you're wearing. If you're wearing regular winter clothing, maintaining your core temp will require getting out of the wet clothes and into dry clothes, or making a fire and drying out. The real danger is if you are out in the cold and wet for long enough for full blown hypothermia to set in.

    Foam just simplifies the recovery and maintaining your core process. You dont have to get out of the wet clothes or build a fire. You can stay wet and just carry on. This is a huge convenience and safety net if you're far from civilization. Mobility isnt really effected all that much in properly made foam clothing so for me its a non issue. Its perfectly comfortable to wear and cycle in.

    People have been getting along just fine without foam winter clothing for thousands of years. Its just a new way to approach winter activities by simplifying moisture management. For me its been a game changer. I used to fear the cold and winter was something I suffered through. Now its fun. I'm not hardcore and I don't like to be cold or suffer.

    If it wasnt for my foam clothing I would not ride in the winter, thats the difference its made for me. I'm sure others are fine without it, as many are doing great using layering. I'm convinced that many would switch over to it after experiencing it though. Layering for me after using foam would be like going back to watching dvd's after being used to HD Blueray. Its just a greatly enhanced experience.

  45. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Well, the guy that stayed in the freezing water for 15 minutes got out and changed his clothes to dry clothes inside a heated environment, he wasn't "just fine", it took an hour or so for his core to rise that one degree that it dropped. So something doesn't add up here. Foam doesn't generate heat and your body only generates so much, so you can't have something from nothing.
    Hmm, interesting. I can't watch that video because where I'm at for the next week I only have phone web access and its a SLOW connection, barely fast enough to post here. I'll watch it when I get back to a faster connection next week.

    When I said Jim was just fine, I meant that he didn't die, haha, not that he didnt suffer a great deal. It wasnt fun. His core temp dropped a lot, and it took a while for it to raise back up. Can't remember how long but it was more than an hour I think. Its in his video, I'll have to go back and watch it. If I recall correctly, he stayed in the water, went into hypothermia of some level, and then got out and recovered wearing the wet foam.


    The foam doesnt generate heat, it just insulates and greatly reduces further heat loss. As long as your body can generate heat, to raise your core temp, at a level greater than what is lost through the foam, your core temp will slowly recover in the wet foam, even if you are in hypothermia, as long as you have the fuel to support it. Your ability to generate heat is dependent on fuel and hydration, so if you dont have enough food and water, then even foam wont save you, you're done.

    It'd be interesting to compare the recovery rate of the wet foam out in the cold vs the change of dry clothes in a heated room.

  46. #246
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    I went back and re-read my post about Jims 15 min water plunge and I never said that Jim was just fine, I said that he recovered just fine after getting out. Stay in the water too long with foam and your going to die.

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    Another thing that would be interesting to know, is how long would it have taken the guy in your video to recover the 1 deg core temp if he stayed outside in the cold with just dry clothes and didnt have the heat to speed things up? At that point its just an insulation to heat generation game. Unless the heated room is a higher temp than the body core, the room isnt heating the body, its just slowing down body heat loss, so its really just acting the same as extra insulation.

  48. #248
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    The plunge into water test is really just an example of the water shedding properties of the foam. I doubt any user of this plans to go snorkelling in a foam suit, or linger in water longer than necessary to get out.

    As a potential user/tester of this that was the bit that attracted me. Wet clothes are the most likely means by which I'll get hypothermic. and I'll most likely get wet not from plunging into a river, but from being out in a sleet storm. Even with the most waterproof of clothing moisture gets in, and then it stays there. I suspect the high vapour levels present on days like that are probably why. The only way to avoid it would be to get a spacesuit.
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  49. #249
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    Thanks N8R for starting this thread and keeping it going with a great deal of civility. I have read through most of the posts and really appreciated the practical comments made about selecting and making the clothing. (I was already sold on the concept prior to finding your thread) I have a couple of questions. I live in south central Idaho mountains, very similar conditions to Utah, small town close to other small towns. It would be difficult to test foams. I found an online resource for foam. Not sure if it is OK to like directly to a sales page, but I will try:
    Poly Foam | Comfort and Support | Padding | Craft Foam
    Do you think this is close to having the right properties? Also, concerning a sewing machine you mentioned older, all metal. Problem is if you don't know much about sewing you might buy a machine that may need a lot of work, and sewing machine repair shops are not around much. Do you think that a newer machine might work for this? And then just hoping you could post some more thoughts about actually executing the project itself, did you use a pattern for instance? You achieved a very tailored look, and I think your efforts were successful in that you have been wearing the original for 2 or 3 years now. Alright, thanks again so much.

  50. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhi View Post
    ...Also, concerning a sewing machine you mentioned older, all metal. Problem is if you don't know much about sewing you might buy a machine that may need a lot of work, and sewing machine repair shops are not around much. Do you think that a newer machine might work for this?...
    Take a look in local charity shops.

    I remembered that in my youth my mother used to use an ancient hand operated machine for heavier work instead of her fancy pants machine (shame she's no longer around, she'd have no bother tailoring something for me). Anyhow, I went looking and found a machine that was little used and in new condition, and it cost me the huge sum of 15 (abt $25).

    I've a mate in Australia who was a sewing machine mechanic, so I've sent him a pic and asked for hints and tips. Probably just need oiling - it still turns really smoothly.

    Next step, get some foam. And then the fashion parade....
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  51. #251
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    Yes, the past generation had some great skills. You'll be up to the challenge in no time. Thanks for the advice!

  52. #252
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    Sorry about the duplicate post, my phone keeps posting before I'm finished typing!
    And this retarded control panel wont let me delete a duplicate post, only edit.
    Last edited by N8R; 12-20-2015 at 08:50 PM.

  53. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhi View Post
    Thanks N8R for starting this thread and keeping it going with a great deal of civility. I have read through most of the posts and really appreciated the practical comments made about selecting and making the clothing. (I was already sold on the concept prior to finding your thread) I have a couple of questions. I live in south central Idaho mountains, very similar conditions to Utah, small town close to other small towns. It would be difficult to test foams. I found an online resource for foam. Not sure if it is OK to like directly to a sales page, but I will try:
    Poly Foam | Comfort and Support | Padding | Craft Foam
    Do you think this is close to having the right properties? Also, concerning a sewing machine you mentioned older, all metal. Problem is if you don't know much about sewing you might buy a machine that may need a lot of work, and sewing machine repair shops are not around much. Do you think that a newer machine might work for this? And then just hoping you could post some more thoughts about actually executing the project itself, did you use a pattern for instance? You achieved a very tailored look, and I think your efforts were successful in that you have been wearing the original for 2 or 3 years now. Alright, thanks again so much.
    Welcome to the forum! Its hard to tell if that foam is ideal or not from the pics, and the only way to really know is to have it in hand. As long as its open cell foam it will work to some degree, but might have reduced performance. Also, I would suggest using no thicker than 1/2" foam. 1" will be to bulky and get too hot for cycling.

    There are 4 tests to perform to find the ideal foam: 1- you want the softest foam possible, 2- Compression test, take a small piece of the foam and completely compress it under a heavy object for a week or two, then see if it springs back up to its original shape quickly or if it stays compressed for a while. If it stays compressed it wont last very long or be durable. 3- Breathablilty, blow tbrough the foam. If its difficult to blow through it with your mouth pressed against the foam, moisture wont pass through it very well. You want it to be very breathable. 4- Water swelling, some foams swell up and expand when wet. Ideally you want one that stays about the same when it gets wet.

    If you look on the website you posted under mattresses, they have a super soft mattress foam that looked like it would probably be the best candidate from that place. It only comes in 1" and thicker though which is not ideal.

    As far as sewing machines go, I highly recommend and older all metal machine. Newer ones have a lot of plastic and really are crap for the most part. Newer ones will work to some degree but they struggle and are a nightmare to sew foam with in my experience. At least the $80 Brother Walmart one I used was. Higher end ones may be better, but still no where near as good as a vintage Machine, unless its a newer industrial such as a Juki. But those are exspensive.

    Older machines are so well built, most of them work or will work with a little oiling. If you can find a pre-1980 Kenmore, I highly recommend them. The best ones are the 158.xxx model numbers and made in Japan. Some of the later 158's such as the Ultra Stitch series were made in Taiwan but are still excellent machines. I have a Taiwan made ultra stitch 12 that I love. Super smooth machine.

    My favorite machine is the 1950's Necchi BU.

    My advice would be to take the time to learn about vintage machines by watching some youtube videos and read a few blog articles to become famiar with the basics on them. They are pretty simple and more or less all work the same. 90% of vintage all metal machines that are not missing parts, will work just fine and usually just need oiling and cleaning if nothing is siezed and the machine turns over and the motor runs.

    On most machines, turn the wheel towards you and if it turns ok thats a great sign. If the needle bar goes up and down freely without binding or strange clunking noises, thats also a good sign. If the wheel turns but the needle bar doesnt move, its probably because the silver knob on the wheel is loosened and you just need to tighten it clockwise to engage the clutch so the needle bar will move. This knob is so when you wind a bobbin, you can disengage the needle bar so it doesnt move up and down while winding the bobbin. So, as long as the wheel turns ok, the needle bar goes up and down, and the motor works, chances are very high its going to work.

    The Japanese machines from the 60's usually need the least amount of attention to get working smoothly, and with a little oil and lint removal youre good to go. People tend to not clean or oil these and then they start to jam and act up so they think theyre broken shen they just need easy maintenance. The antique black Singers are great machines but often have rotted wires that need rewiring, so unless you want to get into fixing sewing machines like I do as a hobby, I'd stick with the vintage Japanese machines.

    There are other things that can make a machine sew poorly such a upper and lower thread tension, but newer machines have these same adjustments to mess with. What it boils down to, is if you want to make your own clothing, you will have to learn how to use and adjust and maintain a sewing machine. It may seem overwhelming at first, but watch a few youtube videos amd read a few blogs and you'll feel confident in no time. After getting familiar with machines, you'll realize the old vintage machines build and function is far superior to most modern plastic machines. They were made to last a lifetime, newer ones are only made to last a few years. Old sewing machines are one of the few things you can find today that are WAY under valued. Machines today of the same build quality are $1000 + so $15-100 for a vintage machine is a steal. Good luck, and I'll see if I can find some good links to post on machines. The best thing to use for a pattern is an old pair of pants and jacket that fit you well, take apart the seams, use the individual pieces as patterns, then sew the foam clothing back up the same way.

  54. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Take a look in local charity shops.

    I remembered that in my youth my mother used to use an ancient hand operated machine for heavier work instead of her fancy pants machine (shame she's no longer around, she'd have no bother tailoring something for me). Anyhow, I went looking and found a machine that was little used and in new condition, and it cost me the huge sum of 15 (abt $25).

    I've a mate in Australia who was a sewing machine mechanic, so I've sent him a pic and asked for hints and tips. Probably just need oiling - it still turns really smoothly.

    Next step, get some foam. And then the fashion parade....
    Excellent! What make and model is your machine? One thing to warn you about.....once you get familiar with sewing and your machine, you will start to notice old sewing machines in estate sales, charity stores, etc. that you never noticed before. They will start to look like cool pieces of machinery( especially if you inspect the innards) and when they only cost $15-25, you may find it hard to resist buying more! What started as a necessity, turned into a hobby and mild obsession. A couple months after buying my first $20 machine, I found myself with around 15-16 machines. I've since slimmed the herd down to 6-7 machines.

    Got a pic to post of your machine?

  55. #255
    jhi
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    Thank you for the clarity on choosing foam. I think it is worth taking your time and getting it right and nothing can substitute for being there in person. You really know your stuff man. Your arguments on older machines I think makes sense, just so daunting when you have never sewed before. Time to start looking around for an older model.

  56. #256
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    hi everyone

    A question that has not been asked yet

    what if you were to start with a frozen and stiff material ?

    let's say a failing tent roof has let water soak your gear and it has frozen hard when you come back to your tent
    would you be able to thaw the foam before you freeze to death ?

    In theory your body furnace would turn the ice into liquid then into vapor...
    but in the field, is it garanted to happen ?

    you have to melt a wall of ice before freezing water thickens the wall...
    once this has started, can it be reversed ?

    worst case scenario : let your gear freeze out, wear it in sub zero or sleep in to find out...
    from bad to worst :
    1/2 inch of frozen foam to thaw when it is 0F
    1/2 inch of frozen foam to thaw when it is -40F
    1 inch of frozen foam to thaw when it is -40F

    a comment from Wiggy taken from this link :
    Foam Filling as an Insulator

    Here I quote Jerry Wigutow :
    ""When the moisture cools it turns to liquid and when the ambient air temperature is before the freezing point it will freeze. Once this occurs all succeeding moisture will be stopped from passing this layer of frost and the layer of ice gets thicker. Hence you are now building and ice box around yourself. Several years ago an article appeared in the Alaska Daily News about two men who were racing the Yukon Quest with N.O. garments. After several days the garments were frozen stiff. They either stopped racing or got a new set of clothes that were not N.O. I do not remember which was done. I was not surprised by this happening. In the article they were quite emphatic and said they through the garments away.""
    End of quote

  57. #257
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    I don't know weather to reply or not. But , because I have decades of experience in both wet cold and arctic cold I'll try to lend some insight. No doubt this has been covered some but a little more info may help.
    It seems this hypothermia question has been approached mostly from a statistical view point . Some have addressed the ability of your body to warm itself and the clothing up. . This is the primary point of survival !!!! I've known several guys that have died from hypothermia and or cold water drowning . And I know several people that have survived for a fair amount of time in the waters of Southeast and coastal Alaska.
    Exhaustion, sickness, running on empty and alcohol consumption , along with genetics play the biggest roll in wether you will live.

    I do think the foam clothing is a good idea . But I also know that body heat will push the moisture to the outside of the garment where it will either evaporate or freeze to the surface. Depending on the outside air temperature. . I do believe(enough to stake my.life on it ) . That the foam clothing will give you more time to create an exterior heat source. Which , depending on the outside temperature is the only way to insure you don't freeze to death.

    I've seen Navy SEAL s nearly slip into unconsciousness from conditions that the average Tlingit, Hydah or Aleut would consider not bad or overly cold.
    The only real way to prove a clothing system is for the individual to try it out themselves. But, in the process it could save your.life to have someone around to keep an eye on you that has the ability to generate an exterior heat source sufficient to warm you up and dry.your gear. I know different people want a one answer to all situations. But staying alive and healthy in the cold is a serious multi faceted situation.

  58. #258
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    Incidentally, non foam insulating fabrics will also collect ice on the surface and freeze solid given cold enough ambient or wind chill . Greatly reducing the volume of insulation and leading to core temp drop . However, ice is fairly wind proof, so depending on the conditions it can possibly help.

  59. #259
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    I think the OP's approach and claims regarding the foam have really turned a lot of people off to this concept, and maybe taken away a very good opportunity for people to try some really cheap methods to stay warm.

    I have always struggled to find a good balance with my clothing. Because I carry some fat around my belly and thighs, I have always been much colder in those areas then areas like my chest, arms, calves. I grabbed a bunch of 1" foam from work for shits and giggles, and cut it to go on the front of my body (belly area) and wrap around my back (luv handles). Although it is bulky, it did eliminate those areas from getting cold, and allowed me to run a thinner shirt than normal. I basically just put my base layer on, then put the foam between my body and the base layer.

    I also cut some foam to go around the front of my thighs and wrap around the back of my legs. Again, the 1" foam is bulky, but it did a great job of keeping my warm w/o overheating or feeling too clammy. I just put my chamois on then insert the foam between my chamois and skin.

    I would like to try some 1/2" foam to see if is a decent compromise between bulk and warmth for warmer rides (below 30 degrees but above zero).

  60. #260
    N8R
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    I think the OP's approach and claims regarding the foam have really turned a lot of people off to this concept, and maybe taken away a very good opportunity for people to try some really cheap methods to stay warm.

    I have always struggled to find a good balance with my clothing. Because I carry some fat around my belly and thighs, I have always been much colder in those areas then areas like my chest, arms, calves. I grabbed a bunch of 1" foam from work for shits and giggles, and cut it to go on the front of my body (belly area) and wrap around my back (luv handles). Although it is bulky, it did eliminate those areas from getting cold, and allowed me to run a thinner shirt than normal. I basically just put my base layer on, then put the foam between my body and the base layer.

    I also cut some foam to go around the front of my thighs and wrap around the back of my legs. Again, the 1" foam is bulky, but it did a great job of keeping my warm w/o overheating or feeling too clammy. I just put my chamois on then insert the foam between my chamois and skin.

    I would like to try some 1/2" foam to see if is a decent compromise between bulk and warmth for warmer rides (below 30 degrees but above zero).
    If you can get 1/2" foam it'll be much better. 1/2" is good down to around 0 deg f just sittng around, so riding a bike and working it should keep you warm to well below 0 deg F.

  61. #261
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    Here an excellent article from Rob Loveman
    THE PHYSICS AND PHYSIOLOGY OF STAYING WARM::Mushing.com - The Online Magazine of Dog-Powered Sports

    Wiggys replied to this
    Articles About Staying Warm - Wiggy's, Inc.

    Everyone can see valuable points here above
    both of them could be just right

    what do you think ????

    As far as I am concerned, the key point is about thawing the Ice
    If being able to thaw the ice in a stiff frozen garment (small likelyhood of occurance but.....) relying on body heat only and under ANY condition is garanteed.... then I will be sold

    some testing
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=k5PLqIXtJ1g

    and how about starting the test in a freezer with some frozen gear ?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdU9HBoe-lM

  62. #262
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    Here is an excellent article from Rob Loveman
    THE PHYSICS AND PHYSIOLOGY OF STAYING WARM::Mushing.com - The Online Magazine of Dog-Powered Sports

    and a reply from WIGGYS
    Articles About Staying Warm - Wiggy's, Inc.

    both of them could be just right ?
    What do You think ????

  63. #263
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    Hi

    N8R said in the beginning of the thread "Any kind of open cell soft mattress foam will work, but there is a certain kind that out performs others. In a nutshell, with this winter clothing there is never any danger of any frostbite, hypothermia, etc."

    What about foam for furniture that have chemicals like fire retardants
    I have been said they could prevent the foam from breathing ?
    Is that right ?

    thanks

  64. #264
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