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  1. #1
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    Fat Bike Wheel Spoke Length

    It seems that info on spoke lengths for wheel building for fat bikes is a little difficult to determine (at least for me), especially for offset wheels for Pugsley and the like. So, I thought it might be nice to have a thread with info on what combinations people have used to successfully build their wheels.

    I'll start with my rear wheel Pugsley build:
    Hub - Shimano M756 6-bolt rear disc hub, 135 mm, 32 hole
    Rim - Vicious Cycles Graceful Fat Sheba (single wall), 32 hole, offset drilled
    Spokes - 260 mm 14 g. DT both sides
    Nipples - 12 mm brass

    This built up pretty nicely. I don't have a truing stand that will accomodate the hub and additional spacer required for a Pugsley build, so I clamped the fork in my Park workstand and mounted the wheel on it. Used twist ties on both sides as truing gauges and sighted down the steerer tube to get it dished correctly.

    edit - forgot to add 3x build for both sides
    Last edited by kgginslc; 01-18-2010 at 07:48 AM.

  2. #2
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    Isn't it the same as inputing an offset for an asymmetrical rim into the spoke length calculator, just with offsets for both sides?
    speedub.nate
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  3. #3
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    I built my 100mm rims to an Alfine IGH with 250mm Alpine III's (both sides) and to a Surly disk/freewheel hub with 260mm. Spoke offset ended up about 20.5mm for the NDS and 25mm for the DS.

    See a few wheelbuild pics via my build thread here.
    And read all about the boring calculations here.

    That second thread has some helpful diagrams courtesy of forum-user, meltingfeather.
    Last edited by CLONG; 01-18-2010 at 01:40 PM.
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  4. #4
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    I'd estimate I've built 100+ fat rims (LM's, 70's, 80's, and 100's) over the past 4-5 years. Unless I was using an oddball hub with non-3x lacing (Rohloff, for example) the spoke lengths have almost always come out to between 258 and 260.

    I dare say you could safely use 259 on almost any fat build out there.

    But don't blame me if it doesn't work!

    MC

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedub.Nate
    Isn't it the same as inputing an offset for an asymmetrical rim into the spoke length calculator, just with offsets for both sides?
    I don't know - that for me, is the problem. Do you enter the offest as a positive or negative number since it's in the opposite direction of your typical offset spoke bed?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLONG

    See a few wheelbuild pics via my build thread here.
    Good to have links to those discussions here. I read that first discussion and it inspired me to go Full Metal Jacket for my brakes as well. I think I didn't manage to get the bends quite as smooth as yours, but I did take the metal tubing all the way into the brake itself - no intermediate cable run. One thing I neglected to anticipate was that it makes getting the rear wheel off a bit more difficult - there's just enough give to manage it though.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgginslc

    I don't know - that for me, is the problem. Do you enter the offest as a positive or negative number since it's in the opposite direction of your typical offset spoke bed?
    I don't know, either. I haven't built any offset wheels, but notice the offset box on some of the spoke calculators I use. I think it'd be the same result as subtracting the difference from the center-to-flange offset.

    But then there was a discussion I read in the last week or so asking if the spokes should cross for increased stability -- left flange crossing to right spoke bed, and right flange crossing to left spoke bed. Seemed like a neat idea to explore 'cept that the spoke holes angle out in the wrong direction. Oh well...
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    I'd estimate I've built 100+ fat rims (LM's, 70's, 80's, and 100's) over the past 4-5 years. Unless I was using an oddball hub with non-3x lacing (Rohloff, for example) the spoke lengths have almost always come out to between 258 and 260.

    I dare say you could safely use 259 on almost any fat build out there.

    But don't blame me if it doesn't work!

    MC
    Even if it's not true 100% of the time, it's good to have a rule of thumb. I'm going to build up another set in the next year or so, so thanks, Mike.

    Quote Originally Posted by kgginslc
    Good to have links to those discussions here. I read that first discussion and it inspired me to go Full Metal Jacket for my brakes as well. I think I didn't manage to get the bends quite as smooth as yours, but I did take the metal tubing all the way into the brake itself - no intermediate cable run. One thing I neglected to anticipate was that it makes getting the rear wheel off a bit more difficult - there's just enough give to manage it though.
    That's cool! I was pretty lazy about the bends. I just tried it because I saw it on the Jones blog. There's a simple bending tutorial on Instructables. For the fork I bent around a 32T bashguard.
    Also, I actually used a very short piece of the braided hose at the end of both runs of FMJ to aid wheel removal and brake adjustment, it's just hidden under the long rubber boot that extends from the caliper.
    I'm covered in beer.

  9. #9
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    I'll second what Mike said on the spoke length. 258 or 260 is what I've used for Large Marge Offset drilling rims with either Surly or Maverick hubs. And 234 and 236 for a Rohloff with a Large Marge. Next time I'll just get one size splitting the difference and make it simpler.

  10. #10
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    I need help with length calculation for a 80mm rim and Nexus 8v. Always spoke length is larger than is needed.

    Do i have to take in ming the wide of the rim?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by kypa View Post
    I need help with length calculation for a 80mm rim and Nexus 8v. Always spoke length is larger than is needed.

    Do i have to take in ming the wide of the rim?
    Rim width makes no difference. Tell us what kind of rim, how many spokes, how many spoke crosses, how much the wheel is offset, if the rim is offset, etc. and people here should be able to help.

  12. #12
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    Thank you.

    Rim us a robs'son rim 26' x 80mm. ERD is 548mm and the spoke holes are 20mm from the center of the rim.
    Spoke number is 36, 3 crosses.

    front hub | Rear hub Nexus 8v
    A 28,3 | A 32,2
    B 18,1 | B 42,7
    OLD 99,8 | OLD 134,5
    WL lado disco 21,6 | WL 35,05
    WR 31,8 | WR 24,55
    s 2,6 | s 2,6
    d dl = dr 58 | d dl = dr 92
    flange distance 55 | flange distance 55
    Nș spokes 36 | Nș spokes 36

    My last result are the following:

    RearWheel Input Data Output Data
    N, total number of spokes 36 cross left length right length
    ERD, effective rim diameter 548,0 0 228,7 228,0
    OSB, offset spoke bed 0,0 1 231,9 231,3
    WL, width from center to left flange 30,0 2 241,1 240,5
    WR, width from center to right flange 24,5 3 254,6 254,0
    dL, left flange diameter 92,0 4 270,2 269,7
    dR, right flange diameter 92,0 3,00 254,6 254,0
    S, spoke hole diameter 2,6


    Front Wheel Input Data Output Data
    N, total number of spokes 36 cross left length right length
    ERD, effective rim diameter 548,0 0 244,7 245,8
    OSB, offset spoke bed 0,0 1 246,6 247,7
    WL, width from center to left flange 21,6 2 252,1 253,2
    WR, width from center to right flange 31,8 3 260,3 261,3
    dL, left flange diameter 58,0 4 270,0 271,0
    dR, right flange diameter 58,0 3,00 260,3 261,3
    S, spoke hole diameter 2,6
    X, cross number (decimal allowed)(optional) 3,00
    WL_effective = W - OSB 21,6
    WR_effective = W + OSB 31,8

  13. #13
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    Hi y'all. I would feel a little more comfortable starting my wheelbuild (Pugsley offset) if anyone could confirm if I'm right on these calculations:

    Front Surly New disc on FlatTop 80;
    N, total number of spokes 36 cross left length right length
    ERD, effective rim diameter 540,0
    OSB, offset spoke bed 10,0
    WL, width from center to left flange 16,5
    WR, width from center to right flange 56,0
    dL, left flange diameter 58,0
    dR, right flange diameter 58,0 3,00 256,9 259,6
    S, spoke hole diameter 2,4
    X, cross number (decimal allowed)(optional) 3,00
    WL_effective = W + OSB 26,5
    WR_effective = W - OSB 46,0

    REAR: Shimano XT disc FH-M756 on FlatTop 80
    N, total number of spokes 36 cross left length right length
    ERD, effective rim diameter 540,0
    OSB, offset spoke bed 10,0
    WL, width from center to left flange 14,7
    WR, width from center to right flange 36,1
    dL, left flange diameter 61,0
    dR, right flange diameter 61,0 3,00 254,9 258,9
    S, spoke hole diameter 2,6
    X, cross number (decimal allowed)(optional) 3,00
    WL_effective = W - OSB 4,7
    WR_effective = W + OSB 46,1

    Thanks for any help and/or comments.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Z View Post
    Hi y'all. I would feel a little more comfortable starting my wheelbuild (Pugsley offset) if anyone could confirm if I'm right on these calculations:

    Front Surly New disc on FlatTop 80;
    N, total number of spokes 36 cross left length right length
    ERD, effective rim diameter 540,0
    OSB, offset spoke bed 10,0
    WL, width from center to left flange 16,5
    WR, width from center to right flange 56,0
    dL, left flange diameter 58,0
    dR, right flange diameter 58,0 3,00 256,9 259,6
    S, spoke hole diameter 2,4
    X, cross number (decimal allowed)(optional) 3,00
    WL_effective = W + OSB 26,5
    WR_effective = W - OSB 46,0

    REAR: Shimano XT disc FH-M756 on FlatTop 80
    N, total number of spokes 36 cross left length right length
    ERD, effective rim diameter 540,0
    OSB, offset spoke bed 10,0
    WL, width from center to left flange 14,7
    WR, width from center to right flange 36,1
    dL, left flange diameter 61,0
    dR, right flange diameter 61,0 3,00 254,9 258,9
    S, spoke hole diameter 2,6
    X, cross number (decimal allowed)(optional) 3,00
    WL_effective = W - OSB 4,7
    WR_effective = W + OSB 46,1

    Thanks for any help and/or comments.
    I think you are entering something wrong. There is no way the rear wheel will end up with one flange only 4.7 mm from the center. Likewise the 14.7 to start with on the front doesn't sound right.

    Even if the rim is offset 10 mm, on the Pugsley the hubs will be offset 17.5 mm.

    What hubs are you using?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by kypa View Post
    Thank you.

    Rim us a robs'son rim 26' x 80mm. ERD is 548mm and the spoke holes are 20mm from the center of the rim.
    Spoke number is 36, 3 crosses.

    front hub | Rear hub Nexus 8v
    A 28,3 | A 32,2
    B 18,1 | B 42,7
    OLD 99,8 | OLD 134,5
    WL lado disco 21,6 | WL 35,05
    WR 31,8 | WR 24,55
    s 2,6 | s 2,6
    d dl = dr 58 | d dl = dr 92
    flange distance 55 | flange distance 55
    Nș spokes 36 | Nș spokes 36

    My last result are the following:

    RearWheel Input Data Output Data
    N, total number of spokes 36 cross left length right length
    ERD, effective rim diameter 548,0 0 228,7 228,0
    OSB, offset spoke bed 0,0 1 231,9 231,3
    WL, width from center to left flange 30,0 2 241,1 240,5
    WR, width from center to right flange 24,5 3 254,6 254,0
    dL, left flange diameter 92,0 4 270,2 269,7
    dR, right flange diameter 92,0 3,00 254,6 254,0
    S, spoke hole diameter 2,6


    Front Wheel Input Data Output Data
    N, total number of spokes 36 cross left length right length
    ERD, effective rim diameter 548,0 0 244,7 245,8
    OSB, offset spoke bed 0,0 1 246,6 247,7
    WL, width from center to left flange 21,6 2 252,1 253,2
    WR, width from center to right flange 31,8 3 260,3 261,3
    dL, left flange diameter 58,0 4 270,0 271,0
    dR, right flange diameter 58,0 3,00 260,3 261,3
    S, spoke hole diameter 2,6
    X, cross number (decimal allowed)(optional) 3,00
    WL_effective = W - OSB 21,6
    WR_effective = W + OSB 31,8
    I am not familier with those rims so don't know if all the spoke holes are offset to the same side or if they are staggered. However before we get there I see a couple of issues:

    1. On your list of dimensions for the rear hub you list WL as 35.05 but when you put that number into the spreadsheet it was put in at 30.0.

    2. If the rear is on an offset bike, such as the Pugsley, then you have to calculate that offset into the hub, the width from center to left flange should decrease by 17.5 and the width from center to right flange should be increased by 17.5.

    3. The rim offset needs to be put into the spreadsheet as well. If it is 20 mm all to one side than put it into the spreadsheet so that it makes the left spokes longer and the right spokes shorter.

    If I've missed something or screwed it up I'm sure someone will chime in.

  16. #16
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    thank you for your answers.
    My hub is a shimano nexus 8v coaster brake.
    All the spoke holes are offset the same distance from the center of the rim.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    I think you are entering something wrong. There is no way the rear wheel will end up with one flange only 4.7 mm from the center. Likewise the 14.7 to start with on the front doesn't sound right.

    Even if the rim is offset 10 mm, on the Pugsley the hubs will be offset 17.5 mm.

    What hubs are you using?
    Thanks for your comment, Sryanak. As you mentioned to kypa, I calculated the offset of 17,5 mm into the hub ("the width from center to left flange should decrease by 17.5 and the width from center to right flange should be increased by 17.5"). As I'm not that proficient with Excell I may have entered wrong WL and WR values for the rear hub (Shimano XT FH-M756 disc) which should be 19,5 resp. 42,2 mm. Spokelengths then will be 255 mm nonDS and 260,1 DS. Offset on the rim is 10 mm, all to one (drive-)side.

    If I'm doing something wrong here, please correct me.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Z View Post
    Thanks for your comment, Sryanak. As you mentioned to kypa, I calculated the offset of 17,5 mm into the hub ("the width from center to left flange should decrease by 17.5 and the width from center to right flange should be increased by 17.5"). As I'm not that proficient with Excell I may have entered wrong WL and WR values for the rear hub (Shimano XT FH-M756 disc) which should be 19,5 resp. 42,2 mm. Spokelengths then will be 255 mm nonDS and 260,1 DS. Offset on the rim is 10 mm, all to one (drive-)side.

    If I'm doing something wrong here, please correct me.
    Frank, I think there is still an error somewhere. For your rear wheel, when I enter the data for the M756 hubs into the spoccalc spreadsheet I get spoke lengths of 259.9 l and 260.2 r respectivly using the 19.5 and 42.2 flange spacings and 45 mm diameters (you used 61 mm diameters) It could be that you have a larger flange hub than that listed in the spoke calc database. If yours are really 61 mm then the spoke lengths would be 256.5 and 256.8by my calculations. I think the reason your right and left differ by so much is that you entered the rim offset as a positive on the rear wheel. Put it in negative and it makes the lengths work much better.

    For your front wheel, I was able to verify your calculations.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by kypa View Post
    thank you for your answers.
    My hub is a shimano nexus 8v coaster brake.
    All the spoke holes are offset the same distance from the center of the rim.
    Kypa, I'm sorry but I am not coming up with a definitive answer. I can only find slightly conflicting dimensions for the Nexus 8V hub on Sheldon Browns site and a nother Shimano site and they don't really match what you have. The other two are close so if I plug them in I get:

    Rear Wheel Input Data Output Data
    N, total number of spokes 36 cross left length right length
    ERD, effective rim diameter 548.0 0 228.8 227.5
    OSB, offset spoke bed -20.0 1 232.1 230.8
    WL, wdth frm center to left flange 14.3 2 241.4 240.1
    WR, wdth frm cntr to right flange 44.0 3 254.9 253.7
    dL, left flange diameter 92.6 4 270.6 269.5
    dR, right flange diameter 92.6 3.00 254.9 253.7
    S, spoke hole diameter 2.9
    X, cross number (decimal allowed)(optional) 3.00
    WL_effective = W - OSB 34.3
    WR_effective = W + OSB 24.0

    So hopefully 254mm spokes would work for both. 254.9 and 253.7 if you could get exact lengths.

    As for your front hub.

    If you are using a 100mm front hub you can't use a rim with a 20 mm offset. Your hub is starting out with a 21.6 mm left flange spacing. If you offset the rim holes 20 mm left then the spokes go straight up and down. If you flip the rim over you then only get an 11.8 mm offset between the rim holes and the right hub flange and that is still to close given that the other side is now offset 41.6 mm. Could you have the rims redrilled to say a 5 mm offset which would give you spokes of exactly the same length (assuming the 21.6 WL , 31.8 WR and 58 D values are correct. I couldn't find this hub anywhere to verify those numbers)? If those are correct then a 5 mm offset drilled rim gives 260.9 mm spokes on both sides. The additional holes should not compromise rim strength unless it already has a bunch of holes in it.

    My last unhelpful question is are you sure about the ERD of 548 that seems pretty big to me but I am not familier with that rim.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    Frank, I think there is still an error somewhere. ...45 mm diameters (you used 61 mm diameters). ... I think the reason your right and left differ by so much is that you entered the rim offset as a positive on the rear wheel. Put it in negative and it makes the lengths work much better.

    For your front wheel, I was able to verify your calculations.
    It's exactly as you stated. I can order the spokes now. Thanks alot!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    Kypa, I'm sorry but I am not coming up with a definitive answer. I can only find slightly conflicting dimensions for the Nexus 8V hub on Sheldon Browns site and a nother Shimano site and they don't really match what you have. The other two are close so if I plug them in I get:

    Rear Wheel Input Data Output Data
    N, total number of spokes 36 cross left length right length
    ERD, effective rim diameter 548.0 0 228.8 227.5
    OSB, offset spoke bed -20.0 1 232.1 230.8
    WL, wdth frm center to left flange 14.3 2 241.4 240.1
    WR, wdth frm cntr to right flange 44.0 3 254.9 253.7
    dL, left flange diameter 92.6 4 270.6 269.5
    dR, right flange diameter 92.6 3.00 254.9 253.7
    S, spoke hole diameter 2.9
    X, cross number (decimal allowed)(optional) 3.00
    WL_effective = W - OSB 34.3
    WR_effective = W + OSB 24.0

    So hopefully 254mm spokes would work for both. 254.9 and 253.7 if you could get exact lengths.

    As for your front hub.

    If you are using a 100mm front hub you can't use a rim with a 20 mm offset. Your hub is starting out with a 21.6 mm left flange spacing. If you offset the rim holes 20 mm left then the spokes go straight up and down. If you flip the rim over you then only get an 11.8 mm offset between the rim holes and the right hub flange and that is still to close given that the other side is now offset 41.6 mm. Could you have the rims redrilled to say a 5 mm offset which would give you spokes of exactly the same length (assuming the 21.6 WL , 31.8 WR and 58 D values are correct. I couldn't find this hub anywhere to verify those numbers)? If those are correct then a 5 mm offset drilled rim gives 260.9 mm spokes on both sides. The additional holes should not compromise rim strength unless it already has a bunch of holes in it.

    My last unhelpful question is are you sure about the ERD of 548 that seems pretty big to me but I am not familier with that rim.
    I make some measurements, and i'm waitin for the fabricator answer, I think is the correct ERD -+1 0r 2 mm. The rim is this one:
    I can post links but is the robsson point de, and then 26' x 80mm doble wide.



    Now i'm going to cut 5mm my spokes. I was trying to mount the wheel, but the spokes are too long with the calculation, but I see the finishing mount and i think 5 mm will be right.

    When I do it i will comment you.




    Thank you for all your help.

  22. #22
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    Anyone done Large Marge 24" DH 32H? Surly New Disc Front Hub Quick Release 32 hole Black and Shimano Deore M525 Rear Disc Hub 32 hole Black. Need to know spoke lengths. End result using Berm Master tires 24 x 3.0 on a Surly Instigator 16" with Instigator front fork.

  23. #23
    drev-il, not Dr. Evil!
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    Any chance someone could either tell me spoke length or provide critical dimensions for building these wheels?

    Hadley Fatback 170mm Rear Hub
    Surly Marge Lite (65mm) Rim
    3x
    Drive Flange spokes to Drive Side rim holes and Non-Drive flange to Non-Drive rim holes


    Hope FatSno 170mm Rear Hub
    Speedway Uma 50mm Rims
    3x

    For the hubs, I guess I need:
    -Pitch Circle Diameter
    -Flange Distance
    -Spoke Hole Diameter

    For the Rims, I need ERD.

    I'll continue to do more research to see if I can figure it out, but if someone already has these dims or spoke lengths, I'd appreciate it. Thanks!
    "Keep your burgers lean and your tires fat." -h.d. | ssoft | flickr

  24. #24
    nvphatty
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    heck i'll add mine to the list and see.

    Pugsley frame
    rims = marge lites ERD 543
    CK 135mm rear disc hub 32h QR
    Paul WHUB disc front 32h QR
    DT comp spokes & pro lock brass 12mm nips
    Last edited by nvphatty; 04-05-2012 at 08:57 AM.

  25. #25
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    I ordered rims and spokes tonight...let's hope my, my brother's and the guy at QBP's calculations are right as we all came up with 263. Well, after calculating the length a few times on QBP's site my brother and I came up with 263 for 3/4 of the spokes and 262 for 1/4 of them. So, a quick call to the tech folk in Minnesota and he confirmed the measurement.

    Hope's new 170 rear and 135 front hub laced to Rolling Darryls laced 3X

    Will certainly let you know when I try and build them.

  26. #26
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    Addendum, 2+ years later:

    With all of the new singlewall rims (specifically Surly ML's, Darryls, and 'shoes) the new "standard" spoke length seems to have become 263. Occasionally a 262 or 264 will find it's way into the mix, but offset or centered, 65, 80, or 100, 263 seems to be the magic number.

    As you were...

  27. #27
    drev-il, not Dr. Evil!
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    Thanks Mike, this worked well for me.

    So my setup was:
    Rear 170mm Hadley Fatback hub, 32 hole
    Surly Marge Lite
    3x, with spokes going to their respective sides (symmetrical wheel build)

    263mm length
    "Keep your burgers lean and your tires fat." -h.d. | ssoft | flickr

  28. #28
    nvphatty
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    ordered

    263mm DT comp spokes / nips order processed for marge lites, CK 135 rear, paul WHUB front.
    My parts bin is near full for the assembly.

  29. #29
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    Copying that from another thread as it may fit in here as well.

    Large Marge DH offset, 36H + Rohloff laced 2X required 232 mm on both sides.
    Large Marge XC centered, 36H + SON 28 laced 2X required 246 mm on the left and 248 mm on the right.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drevil View Post
    Thanks Mike, this worked well for me.

    So my setup was:
    Rear 170mm Hadley Fatback hub, 32 hole
    Surly Marge Lite
    3x, with spokes going to their respective sides (symmetrical wheel build)

    263mm length
    I used the 264mm spokes that came with the Fatback build. Greg provided the Hadley measurements and I measured the ERD of the UMA and the Neon Trials rims, both came out to 546mm ERD. I think that ±1mm is okay, the wheel I built is straight and solid (so far)

  31. #31
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    Anyone help with spoke length ?

    Looking to build a set of new wheels up...

    Hope fatsno's 170mm rear 135mm front.
    Marge lites (erd 543)
    DT Supercomps or comps.

    Rather than ordering hubs and rims then measuring for spokes, has anyone laced a set ?

    Many thanks in advance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Anyone help with spoke length ?

    Looking to build a set of new wheels up...

    Hope fatsno's 170mm rear 135mm front.
    Marge lites (erd 543)
    DT Supercomps or comps.

    Rather than ordering hubs and rims then measuring for spokes, has anyone laced a set ?

    Many thanks in advance.
    I'll let you know in a few days. I'm building the exact same wheels myself (except I went with Revolution spokes). UPS comes today with the rest of my parts. Ordered 263mm spokes based on this thread.

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    263mm is perfect.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Fat Bike Wheel Spoke Length-img_0666.jpg  


  34. #34
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    Thanks SmooveP, 263 it is then......rep coming you way.

    Cheers
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  35. #35
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    I need the spoke lengths for a pair of rolling Darills, Cannondale Lefty hub in the front asymmetrical and then a 170mm Hope pro II hub in the back, 3 cross will do.

    thanks for sharing your know how

  36. #36
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    Looking good smooveP.... are they brass nipples ? Silver crossed my mind but thought black, now the silver is back in play and revos with brass nipples would be just as strong, your wheels look awesome !
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Looking good smooveP.... are they brass nipples ? Silver crossed my mind but thought black, now the silver is back in play and revos with brass nipples would be just as strong, your wheels look awesome !
    Yeah, stock silver brass nipples that came with the spokes. Meant to do blue aluminum ones, but forgot to order them. These Revos are skinny. I'm worried.

  38. #38
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    You should be good, the brass nipples make a big difference to strength. Considering using them myself now that ive seen them laced. $75au at Jensons
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    For what it is worth (for future searchers), I found 263mm to be the magic number with Hope's and Darryl's too.

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    With all these wheels being built, I have to ask, what final spoke tension did you shoot for?

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    can't speak for the others, and I used a park tension meter, I shot for about 17 on the meter. Way lower than other wheels I have built, but I was led to believe (by other forum threads) it was appropriate for the rims. Holding true thus far.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombinate View Post
    can't speak for the others, and I used a park tension meter, I shot for about 17 on the meter. Way lower than other wheels I have built, but I was led to believe (by other forum threads) it was appropriate for the rims. Holding true thus far.
    What gauge spokes did you use?

  43. #43
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    On regular 29er wheels with supercomps (1.7mm) i hope for 20ish DS and 15ish NDS usually, i reckon i was very similar with the fat wheels. I try for 100kgf with every set of wheels i build.
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  44. #44
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    OK I've got a slightly wierd one....

    I have a GFS 80mm rim laced to a Project 321 lefty hub, with loads of dish to clear a fat lefty. In fact a little more dish than I'd like. I'm tempted to cross lace the spoke (from one hub flange to the opposite rim drilling). Logic says I'd need longer spokes. But inclined to believe I'd be able to make it work by relacing the ones I have....

    Yay or nay?
    A big boy did it, and ran away.
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  45. #45
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    With all of the new singlewall rims (specifically Surly ML's, Darryls, and 'shoes) the new "standard" spoke length seems to have become 263. Occasionally a 262 or 264 will find it's way into the mix, but offset or centered, 65, 80, or 100, 263 seems to be the magic number.
    Just wanted to thank Mikesee in particular for sharing his knowledge--after reading this I felt comfortable ordering a box of 263mm supercomps on sale and used them to lace up a cannondale lefty hub and a hope fatsno, both to marge lites, worked great. Thanks a bunch! Now I have a summer wheelset for a few weeks until the snow starts to fly...

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by montana_ben View Post
    ordering a box of 263mm supercomps on sale
    Where did you order from...??

  47. #47
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    From Jenson...spokes and alloy nips in box of 72. Discovered I like brass nips better...but it worked.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by montana_ben View Post
    From Jenson...spokes and alloy nips in box of 72. Discovered I like brass nips better...but it worked.
    Cool thanks

  49. #49
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    Just did the maiden voyage on the new wheels - Marge Lites + Hopes + Revolution spokes. Heard some pinging and popping, but I think it was my knees. Dropped over a pound from my existing wheels and they still felt plenty stiff. Got the tension up to 17-18 on the TM-1.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvphatty View Post
    263mm DT comp spokes / nips order processed for marge lites, CK 135 rear, paul WHUB front.
    My parts bin is near full for the assembly.
    Everything assem without a hitch so muchas gracias to mikesee and others for making the info avail to us.

  51. #51
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    Resurrecting old thread.

    What I need to take into consideration when I'm trying to build a budget front wheel without offset, especially the spoke length.

    My plan currently is that I get my Robs'son 80mm 36H rim, buy a hub for it and then spokes.

    Now my limitation is that I need to use 36H hub, either cheapo 135mm rear hub, or surly new 135mm rear (fixed/freewheel?) hub. If I use surly hub, the wheel should be easy to build as it's gonna be symmetrical. But how about if I use cheapo shimano rear hub, it's not gonna be that symmetric anymore, right?

    How on earth can I choose the right spokes? (other than just taking the hub and rim to a wheel builder nearby)

  52. #52
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    Spocalc, by Damon Rinard. A free Excel spoke length calculator.

    I like the excel version cause you can cacluate spoke length down to the nats ass. I used it for a fat front build which let me account for the offset holes in the rim and hub flange diameters and locations.

  53. #53
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    Try to play a little with Freespoke.

  54. #54
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    Thanks Sas, that excel looks very intuitive to me. I will try that to check what should I do. Freespoke doesn't work with my PC for some reason right now.

    What problems wrong size spokes can cause when building the wheel?

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfurry View Post
    OK I've got a slightly wierd one....

    I have a GFS 80mm rim laced to a Project 321 lefty hub, with loads of dish to clear a fat lefty. In fact a little more dish than I'd like. I'm tempted to cross lace the spoke (from one hub flange to the opposite rim drilling). Logic says I'd need longer spokes. But inclined to believe I'd be able to make it work by relacing the ones I have....

    Yay or nay?
    I used and contributed to freespoke
    https://kstoerz.com/freespoke/fullcalc
    The 321 hub is not in there but you should check it is most likely the same as the cannondale lefty hub (my circus monkey hub was) For my fat build used left set of holes only with 261 spokes on the left and 263 on the right.

    The nice thing about freespoke is that it gives the spoke bed offset as a editable field with a graphic of what you will get as well as tensions of both sides. So try different options and see what tensions and crosses you like. I ran several for each of my 4 wheel builds and all have worked out fantastic.

    The hope hubs, and the surly wheels are all in his database, even an alfine 11 made it's way in there which I built up for a fatback with a spacer.





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  56. #56

  57. #57
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    Lacing an offset fat sheba

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Addendum, 2+ years later:

    With all of the new singlewall rims (specifically Surly ML's, Darryls, and 'shoes) the new "standard" spoke length seems to have become 263. Occasionally a 262 or 264 will find it's way into the mix, but offset or centered, 65, 80, or 100, 263 seems to be the magic number.

    As you were...
    Mike,

    Do you have a magic number of spoke length for an 80mm fat sheba and an alfine 8 and/or 11 IGH? Can't seem to find a solid way of figuring it out.

    Thanks, Wil

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikecycology View Post
    Mike,

    Do you have a magic number of spoke length for an 80mm fat sheba and an alfine 8 and/or 11 IGH? Can't seem to find a solid way of figuring it out.

    Thanks, Wil
    Nope, sorry.

  59. #59
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    Wrong size in what way?. Too long you will end up with a wheel that you are unable to build to adequate tension. 1200N or 120KGF is a general rule of thumb for wheel building a well built wheel with this tension will hold up fine with out any sort of thread locker or spoke prep. With spokes that are too long and under tension it is likely to start breaking spokes at the head. With spokes that are too short, if you are able to even lace the thing you run the risk of ripping the spokes out of the nipple or possibly breaking the nipples depending on penetration depth and nipple material. Another thing with fat bike builds if you are too long on a single wall rim you are going to end up with threads sticking out the back of the nipple which poses a threat to your tube and adds labor to your build because you are either going to rebuild with the correct length spoke or take a file to the excess spoke and remove what is sticking out.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbent View Post
    1200N or 120KGF is a general rule of thumb f.
    That is true for doublewall rims, but seems, generally speaking, to be far too much for singlewall.

    It is almost unbelievable how much a singlewall rim deforms even at ~70kgf. Some much more than others. You can see it with nekkid eyes just running the driver to get started.

    The 'science' of building with singlewall rims is still young and needs extensive scrutiny and experimentation. I currently limit my tension to ~100kgf on singlewall fat rims, less depending on model.

    MC

  61. #61
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    I agree that lacing any rim too quickly causes deformation. Asymmetrical even more so depending how quickly you are trying to lace. Lacing too quickly does not save you much time during the build at all...if it doesnt end up costing you more in the long run.

    Two of the new surly rims are not a true single but more of a faux double wall. I've noticed that all of these new fat rims handle tensions better when they are not an offset build. I have built a decent amount on all of these asymmetrical and non offset with tensions exceeding the ones i stated with out any issues of nipples pulling the spoke bed and have seen considerable use. The other thing with the new surly rims is that they are welded and your typical single wall rim is not. I think that you could get away with higher tensions especially on non offset builds. Are you finding 'flowering' at tensions above 1000N ?

  62. #62
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    Does anyone know the ERD of a robsson.de double wall 26" x 100mm rim?

    DW100, 26", schwarz eloxiert, 36h - Robs'son GmbH

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    Conformation required please.

    I have Marge lite rims, Hope Pro 2 EVO Fatsno rear hub and Hope 2 Evo 9x100 front hub.

    Do I order DT Comp spokes in a 263mm length for both front and rear wheels?

    Many thanks !

  64. #64
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    Post deleted.... didnt read your post correctly lostraveller, my info is not relevant for 100mm front hubs.
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  65. #65
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    I always try to find a compromise length that works on both sides of both wheels. So far I have found that if a spoke is withing 2mm shorter or 1mm longer than the calculated length, it will work.
    --Peace

  66. #66
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    Hope pro 2 FRONT HUB ( 9 x 100 ) with Marge Lite. SPOKE LENGTH ???????

    Has anyone built a front wheel with a Marge Lite and a Hope Pro 2 Front Hub ( 9 x 100 ). My Freespoke search came up with Left - 261.4 and Right 262.4.

    Your advice would be much appreciated.

    My rear wheel ( Marge Lite and Hope Fatsno 170 ) came out at 263 which seems to match the advice earlier.
    Last edited by lostraveller; 04-21-2013 at 05:21 AM.

  67. #67
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    Hi all,

    I have an interesting potential problem where the hub width is the same as the "Rim Hole Width". My concern is that this would cause the wheel to be weak with side to side forces. I cannot use different hubs or rims, and the rim is going to be dished 15mm to one side. The bike is for downhill riding.
    Does anyone know of any special patterns, where some spokes go from the left side of the hub to the right side of the rim for example? (if so how would I calculate the spoke lengths?)


    Here is what I mean by

    HUB WIDTH
    Name:  SpokeCalc_HubWidth.gif
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    RIM HOLE WIDTH
    Fat Bike Wheel Spoke Length-img_20130613_154028.jpg
    (this is the actual robsson.de rim I'm using)

  68. #68
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    Use Freespoke:
    Freespoke

    You can put in negative numbers for the wheel spoke bed offset and hub offset, and it even gives you a diagram of what the spokes will look like.

    Also:
    http://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/any...im-799284.html
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  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kos F View Post
    Hi all,

    I have an interesting potential problem where the hub width is the same as the "Rim Hole Width". My concern is that this would cause the wheel to be weak with side to side forces. I cannot use different hubs or rims, and the rim is going to be dished 15mm to one side. The bike is for downhill riding.
    Does anyone know of any special patterns, where some spokes go from the left side of the hub to the right side of the rim for example? (if so how would I calculate the spoke lengths?)
    Yes, use Freespoke. What you are doing is a crosslaced wheel. Each side should be a 3x (3 cross) pattern, but reaching thru to the other side of the wheel. From my experience, there will be a pair of each 3 spokes that will also cross as they go across each other - that's just a minor lacing issue.

    More important! When crosslacing, the leverage of the spokes against the wheel is much higher. I normally build wheels using a 1/4 turn of the wrench as a basic unit - but that is the equivalent of a full turn to a crosslaced wheel. You need to make very small adjustments to prevent crazy/erratic results in wheel trueness. Also, get the wheel straight w/o an significant tension - don't expect to be able to take out wobbles as you bring the wheel up to tension.

    Here's a thread on the topic: http://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/any...im-799284.html
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

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  70. #70
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    Freespoke and that thread are great resources guys, thanks!

    Heres what I got in freespoke:
    Fat Bike Wheel Spoke Length-spoke-calcing.jpg



    But their help file is missing some definitions, and every calculator seems to use different terminology...

    center-flange distance
    Center of hub to center of flange I assume...?

    flange hole circle diameter
    I assume this is "d" in the diagram below...

    flange spoke hole diameter
    this must be "S".


    Name:  spocalc_hubdims.gif
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  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by wadester View Post
    More important! When crosslacing, the leverage of the spokes against the wheel is much higher. I normally build wheels using a 1/4 turn of the wrench as a basic unit - but that is the equivalent of a full turn to a crosslaced wheel. You need to make very small adjustments to prevent crazy/erratic results in wheel trueness.
    So what your saying is the wheel trueness will be much more affected when torquing the nipples in a cross laced build.



    Anyone know of any other spoke length calculators that will take a negative spoke hole side-side spacing for the rim? So I can compare the values I get with my freespoke values

  72. #72
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    Rims-clown shoe
    Hubs-(rear) hope pro 2, 135, 17.5 offset/ (front) surly fat ultra new, 135, no offset
    Spoke lengths would help

  73. #73
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    Rims - Clown Shoe
    Hub -Shimano XT 135mm, M756. Disc. 32-hole
    3 cross with offset for a moonlander.

    Any idea on spoke lengths?

  74. #74
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    Harry D,

    Drive-263mm
    Disk-261mm

  75. #75
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    Harry D,

    Correction in that calc. Those are lengths for a RD to the XT.
    For the XT to a CS it will be 262 both sides.

  76. #76
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    what about a hope 135 onto clown shoes with 28mm (moonie offset)

    anyone

  77. #77
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    jbent,

    Thanks for the info.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbent View Post
    For the XT to a CS it will be 262 both sides.
    Correct. I have the same hub and rim, and 262 mm was a good choice.

  79. #79
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    cozz,
    263 drive
    262 disk
    (you could go 263 both but you might have to file spoke protrusion on the back of the nipple down a bit on disk side)

  80. #80
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    How about spoke lengths for 907 135/190mm hubs and clown shoes.
    Can't find the specs for the hubs anywhere and 907 is not replying my e-mails. No, I can't measure the hubs as I have not received them yet.

  81. #81
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    So I know this is being incredibly lazy but what spoke lengths do I need for a clown shoe rim with offset and a Surly 135mm Ultra New Track Hub.
    If someone could post a site for a good length calculator that would be cool too.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_K View Post
    How about spoke lengths for 907 135/190mm hubs and clown shoes.
    Can't find the specs for the hubs anywhere and 907 is not replying my e-mails. No, I can't measure the hubs as I have not received them yet.
    907front hub, Clownshoe- 262. 907 Rear hub, Clownshoe- 266 Non Dr, 264 Dr
    I like turtles

  83. #83
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    If you can measure the Surly hub, MAYBE it's the same as one of these...

    Shimano XT offset in Clownshoe- Non Dr- 262, Dr- 262

    Hope Pro2 in Clownshoe, offset- non dr- 262, dr- 263
    I like turtles

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    907front hub, Clownshoe- 262. 907 Rear hub, Clownshoe- 266 Non Dr, 264 Dr
    Thanks a lot!

    edit. 14mm nipples and 3x?

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_K View Post
    Thanks a lot!

    edit. 14mm nipples and 3x?
    Don't they come with 12mm? Yes, three cross.
    I like turtles

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    I need to learn ERD Robson RM80 80mm single wall, 548mm?

  87. #87
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    Can anyone help me determine the necessary spoke length for a 170mm Hope pro fatsno rear hub to a Stan's arch EX 29er rim. And the corresponding 135mm Hope to arch EX front? I really appreciate any info.

  88. #88
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    170 mm Hope and Arch EX 29er: 296 mm on both sides, when using 32 spokes cross 3.
    135 mm Hope and Arch EX 29er: 284 mm on the left, 286 mm on the right, when using 32 spokes cross 2.

    This applies assuming Stan's has the correct ERD (606 mm) on their website. My experience with their Crests was that their "ERD" was only up to the nipple shoulder, but the spoke should go deeper than that. For the rear wheel this doesn't affect things enough to change spoke lengths, but for the front I would use 286 mm on both sides to reduce the risk of breaking nipples.

    Use brass nipples and you're unlikely to have trouble either way.

    (If you want to have the front wheel cross 3, the calculator suggests 294 mm on both sides if you trust the ERD to be 606 mm. For lack of concrete info, I'd calculate with a 608 mm ERD and use 296 mm on both sides.)

    Calculated with this one: Freespoke
    The database includes both hubs you're using. Because the spoke bed is centered, you can simply input an ERD instead of choosing a rim.

  89. #89
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    Fat Bike Wheel Spoke Length-screen-shot-2014-05-03-6.35.19-pm.jpg

    Building up a set of these new "light bicycle 90mm" carbon rims....

    Dimensional drawings show:
    ERD - 534mm
    Spoke hole drilling offset - 19.5mm

    Front Hub - Project 321 Lefty

    My lefty fork has MendonCycles offset clamps 17.5mm further to the left side for clearance.

    Freespoke suggests that I need:

    L- 257 mm
    R- 260 mm

    Can anyone look at this calculation and verify that I have all the offsets in right?

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Penetrator View Post
    I need to learn ERD Robson RM80 80mm single wall, 548mm?
    Hi, I measured 546mm ERD for this rim; built them up today and spokes turned out the be the right length.

    As they are single wall I've used less tension compared to normal thinner double wall rims, is this a good or bad idea?
    Last edited by HypnoT0AD; 05-08-2014 at 12:56 PM. Reason: spelling

  91. #91
    merk
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    Fat Bike Wheel Spoke Length-photo.jpg

    Does this look right to anyone? Can anyone verify that the Clownshoe ERD is actually 543.5 at the spoke bed? What length spokes should i ACTUALLY get?

    This will be my first wheel building experience. Any words of wisdom would be appreciated!

  92. #92
    turtles make me hot
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    What hub are you using?
    I like turtles

  93. #93
    merk
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    What hub are you using?
    a 190mm Borealis fh1 rear hub. the numbers are all from the freespoke database verified by manufacturer specs.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kos F View Post
    Hi all,

    I have an interesting potential problem where the hub width is the same as the "Rim Hole Width". My concern is that this would cause the wheel to be weak with side to side forces. I cannot use different hubs or rims, and the rim is going to be dished 15mm to one side. The bike is for downhill riding.
    Does anyone know of any special patterns, where some spokes go from the left side of the hub to the right side of the rim for example? (if so how would I calculate the spoke lengths?)


    Here is what I mean by

    HUB WIDTH
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    RIM HOLE WIDTH
    Click image for larger version. 

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    (this is the actual robsson.de rim I'm using)
    A build like this doesn't really work, since you're not building a triangle, you're building a rectangle. You can tension it and round it, but there's no way to true or dish a rectangular wheel.

  95. #95
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    The lengths I have for a rear Borealis in a Clownshoe is as follows:
    264 non drive 262 drive
    I like turtles

  96. #96
    merk
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    The lengths I have for a rear Borealis in a Clownshoe is as follows:
    264 non drive 262 drive
    Awesome. Thanks! You built yours offset to the left spoke bed? 3 cross? trying to figure out what i did wrong in freespoke...

  97. #97
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    It is not offset. I was given the spoke lengths by QBP back when the hubs were brand new.
    I keep a log of what works.
    I like turtles

  98. #98
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    Hi guys,
    So I'm building a new front wheel - LB 90mm offset drilled rim onto a lefty hub. Using MCS offset clamps.

    I'm not quite sure how to calculate spoke length with the fork offset, drilling offset and then the fact that rake (and therefore wheel dish) is not fixed...

    Any advice, o' wizards of the wheel?

  99. #99
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    Hi
    Same here..
    Looking for some spoke length help..

    Orgin8 Crawler Rear Rim
    Hope Xc - 32h - 135mm spacing.
    Front is currently two cross, would like to run the rear 2 or 3cross.
    Front spoke length is 255mm two cross, maybe a bit more like 260mm.. Similar front flange size too rear Hope xc i am building.
    --
    The old hub (internal) was non-dished, so thinking i can build the new one the same way, no dish..

    Need help with rear spoke length..?????

    Any help would be GREAT..

    THANKS

  100. #100
    GoCyco
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    Spoke length?

    Hope Fatsno 135x15 and 177x12
    Nextie 65mm, ERD515, 0 offset

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