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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    True story,....and I feel bad for him.
    Also true story?

    A guy we used to ride with was stud free on an early winter ride a bunch of years ago.

    I was studded, and went right over a smooth flat, lightly snow dusted stretch.

    Apparently it was all ice.

    Heard a smack, stopped, and he was on the ground.

    Long story short, he broke the ball/top end of his femur off clean.

    Studs man, when you need them, there is NO substitute. You just don't need them in Phoenix or Brazil....

    Glad he's okay!
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Wake up.

    In YOUR area. perhaps.

    This is like me telling someone in Phoenix or Brazil, "OMG YOU HAVE TO USE STUDDED TIRES BECAUSE I HAVE ICE ON MY TRAILS RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!"

    No such issues around here, at all. No trail closures, no wringing of Audubon/Sierra Club hands, nada. All trail shredding is left to the horses and there's been no reports of flattened children or startled grannies. AT least not any more than when MTB came along, or 29ers, or suspension, or whatever other change to the world that some types don't find personally useful right then.

    I think this is the largest thing *you guys* miss, right next to not ever riding one, but presuming to understand how their power is used, and to what effect.

    Just because YOU chose to live in an area filled with trail SJW types who like to act like dogs, (when one barks at nothing, they all bark at nothing), doesn't mean the rest of the world does, nor should they be required to accept your berating tirades as absolute truth on the matter.
    So just because YOUR part of the world is immune to trail closures means that everybody else should accept these other berating tirades? I've ridden e-bikes and I've dealt with trail closures and advocacy issues. Have you? Screw you.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by SADDLE TRAMP View Post
    If the pilot is operating their e-bike on a single-track...in a respectable manner...where is the harm...?

    Are you not really making a premature assumption about the damage that would incur, and leaving out the damage that non e-bike users can inflict through various habits?
    Do a little bit of research. This has been explained hundreds of times on this very website.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    So just because YOUR part of the world is immune to trail closures means that everybody else should accept these other berating tirades? Screw you.

    You've completely lost the thread, lost whatever sense of decency you may have once had, and really, really need a noogie. And a time out.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    You've completely lost the thread, lost whatever sense of decency you may have once had, and really, really need a noogie. And a time out.
    Funny, I thought the exact same thing when I read post #41. Strong words from a guy who goes through the trouble to post 20 photos along with 5,000 words to say "get off my lawn."
    I would advise not taking my advice.

  6. #106
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    For fat biking in snow, sometimes the pedal fat bike is more capable then a class 1 efat.

    I have both and think discussing the differences in fat bike configurations (winter snow riding) is more appropriate in the fat bike forum section.
    Sometimes Rickety, not a turd

  7. #107
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    Oh lookee, I got a neg rep from LyNx.

    Jeez, sorry mate, I didn't realise it was a cult issue for you.

    But continue having purity tantrums in your small part of the world and keep those dratted electric folk off "your" trails, and I guarantee that in about 10 years you'll be wondering why no one supports funding for trail building or maintenance for a minority pursuit.

    Its well proven elsewhere that the more people who have access to the trails, the more support you get for the trails - that includes walkers, pure blood cyclists who don't wimp out and use gears and suspension, wimpy cyclists who do, horse riders, wheel chair users, wheel barrow racers, and equine exhaust distributors.

    Learn to live with other people, the world is for everyone.

    Oh and here's a pic of me cheating and using gravity assist (instead of electricity) to ride down an ice slab* in a 24 hour race on my singlespeed fatbike. I may not be totally in control...



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  8. #108
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    I'm still trying to figure out why an e-bike thread is in the fat bike forum.

    Shouldn't it be in the e-bike forum?

  9. #109
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    Bob
    Last edited by Turd; 04-04-2019 at 07:22 AM.
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  10. #110
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    E bike and Arnold.-sn.jpg

    I'm too lazy to go for a 3hr mid-week fat bike ride after the family goes to bed on the pedal fat bike.
    The additional thrill of illegally trashing the snow covered trails at 10 p.m. is fun to ponder as I wander around and scourge about with some assistance. Didn't see any night fat bikers all winter, wish I did. It would have been comforting to know that if I crashed and was unresponsive someone might get pissed about what I had done and beat me with a stick and poop on my face to wake me up.
    Back in the day, I used to spin on a trainer in the basement during the winter. That sucks.
    Last edited by Turd; 04-04-2019 at 08:03 AM.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
    I'm still trying to figure out why an e-bike thread is in the fat bike forum.

    Shouldn't it be in the e-bike forum?
    Probably sorted by the same algorithm that allows cultists against reality on it.
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  12. #112

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    ...These are just a few easy to find threads that discuss the issues with blindly calling e-bikes mountain bikes. All from the e-bike forum that exists for threads like this one. I'll get to the Trail Advocacy and Building forum later. I'd suggest reading them before calling people snowflakes and cultists for disagreeing with your narrow minds.
    Narrow mind?

    You're the one ranting in the face of the reality that pedal assisted eBikes are classified as a bicycle (ie power only supplied when the rider is pressing on the pedals). You need to get busy if you want to change this, you have a few billion people outside your small circle of purists to convince otherwise.

    You're the one trying to be an exclusionist.

    I have a better suggestion, buy some land, put a large fence around it, and no one will care if you exclude eBikes, or Pogo sticks, or whatever, and you can create your own reality.

    In the meantime, I'm not sure what you mean by a snowflake, but if you are, try not to melt...

    BTW I do not have an eBike, have no intention of buying one, nor of buying a DH bike that primarily relies on gravity assistance to do its job, but I am happy to share the trails with anyone who cares to use them and respects them.

    EDIT: the simple solution to this disagreement about the proper use of the fatbike forum is to ask a moderator.

    Simple question "Are fat eBikes acceptable on the fatbike forum?"

    I'll respect their ruling.

    Then we can leave the policing of the forum to the admins and the moderators instead of internecine sniping.
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  14. #114
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    I can't conceive why it is so hard to understand.....I'll try to explain :

    A bike , as we know it and love , are Human Powered Vehicles;


    As soon as you add an electric motor/battery or explosion engine on it , it stop being an HPV , it becomes another thing completely some calls it E-Bike around here , I prefer to call them motorcycle because ......... have a guess ? ......... BINGO !!!!!!! = there is a motor attached to it.

    As soon as a motor is attached to an HPV , it stops being an HPV , a bike , a bicycle and becomes something completely different (wich belong on other forums)

    I hope it helps you guys understand what a motor is.
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  15. #115
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    World Human Powered Vehicle Association

    "..... A real HPV can be powered by an electric engine, but the energy must come from a human powered generator. Electric bicycles with batteries onboard do not include to HPV's."
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  16. #116
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    I could care less about these e fat bikes but may in the future. I have no issue with a thread being posted it the fat bike forum. It seems like it a common occurrence. I can't figure out why the haters come in to post? Why don't they just avoid it and it would have been forgotten days ago. Still going strong after a week. LOL!
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  17. #117
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    Reminds me of equestrian people....I hate them as much as Ebike.

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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    I can't conceive why it is so hard to understand.....I'll try to explain :

    A bike , as we know it and love , are Human Powered Vehicles;


    As soon as you add an electric motor/battery or explosion engine on it , it stop being an HPV , it becomes another thing completely some calls it E-Bike around here , I prefer to call them motorcycle because ......... have a guess ? ......... BINGO !!!!!!! = there is a motor attached to it.

    As soon as a motor is attached to an HPV , it stops being an HPV , a bike , a bicycle and becomes something completely different (wich belong on other forums)

    I hope it helps you guys understand what a motor is.
    By this logic a motorcycle stops being a motorcycle as soon as you attach human power to it. Some could even prefer to call it a bicycle since it's human powered. So maybe E Bike is not a bad compromise.
    As to whether they should be allowed on single track I see both sides. On the one hand they will allow more people access to trails and could act as a gateway to regular bikes. On the other hand they allow higher speed up hill which will add to trail maintenance and could add safety concerns. I'm not clear on how they will massively change the trail access picture. On designed single track most people won't be able ride them much if any faster on level ground or down hill. The trail geometry should mostly be the speed limiter. As with anything there will be a few who abuse them. Time will tell if they are enough to ruin it for the majority of users.
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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    By this logic a motorcycle stops being a motorcycle as soon as you attach human power to it.
    Please read my link again.

    It stops being a motorcycle as soon as there is no external source of energy , if there is petrol or batteries, than it stops being a bicycle.
    As far as I know , motorcycles discussed in this thread have batteries ?
    Last edited by fokof; 04-08-2019 at 08:26 AM.
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    World Human Powered Vehicle Association

    "..... A real HPV can be powered by an electric engine, but the energy must come from a human powered generator. Electric bicycles with batteries onboard do not include to HPV's."
    I'l take as an authority what constitutes an eBike the legislatures of various countries representing billions of people, not small special interest groups who have a different agenda, just as I don't accept the UCI's restrictions on what constitutes a bicycle.

    But won't one of you eBike haters ask the moderators what's ok on the forum instead of polluting it with your hate?
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  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    Please read my link again.

    It stops being a motorcycle as soon as there is no external source of energy , if there is petrol or batteries, than it stops being a motorcycle.
    As far as I know , motorcycles discussed in this thread have batteries ?

    batteries charged elsewhere
    electric motors driven by said batteries
    throttles too. foot activated throttle is still a...wait for it...throttle
    and ability to lay down inhuman amounts of power onto trail surfaces
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    ...and ability to lay down inhuman amounts of power onto trail surfaces
    You must be a very weak human....
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  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    I'l take as an authority what constitutes an eBike the legislatures of various countries representing billions of people, not small special interest groups who have a different agenda, just as I don't accept the UCI's restrictions on what constitutes a bicycle.

    But won't one of you eBike haters ask the moderators what's ok on the forum instead of polluting it with your hate?
    You don't know as much as you think you do. Better check actual legislation in various jurisdictions before being wrong.

  24. #124
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    Congrats you guys. Congrats. This thread is SO BAD I'm gonna go back to reading about US politics.
    Disclaimer: I run Regular Cycles (as of 2016). As a profiteer of the bicycle industry, I am not to be taken very seriously.

  25. #125
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    Suppose battery, motor and possibly access questions are better answered elsewhere but why moderate it? Technical questions and recommendations related to all the other parts/info involve fat bike configuration directly….. so what.

    If someone contributed to this thread https://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/fa...s-1097390.html and mentioned the use of efat, would a Road Weenie have an Aneurysm? That would be unfortunate or comical.

    MTBR is worse than Walmart, bunch of aisles to walk down with sales associate bouncers kicking you out of the arts and craft aisle and sending you to hardware/paint for duct tape. They don’t have the pink unicorn stuff in that aisle. Therefore, you go back to arts and craft only to realize that beating a dead horse is hit or miss and sometimes mildly entertaining. Get distracted looking at glitter options and then realize that you do not have time to wait in line at the checkout counter because of other obligations.

    On the way out, you either shake your head and laugh or yell at some guy in a Santa Claus costume.
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  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    foot activated throttle is still a...wait for it...throttle
    and ability to lay down inhuman amounts of power onto trail surfaces
    Not a throttle. A switch, Riding one would really help you clear up this confusion you're experiencing.

    Throttle implies the ability to drive the motor in a manner that can be modulated.

    Assist simply turns on, or off, based on pedal pressure applied.

    As for inhuman power, um, no, hardly, and again, riding one would clarify this tremendously, or, ya know, just keep sniping from a position of utter ignorance.
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  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    You don't know as much as you think you do. Better check actual legislation in various jurisdictions before being wrong.
    I'm sure it varies from place to place, but can you give an example of where a pedal assisted eBike is treated as a motorbike - seeing as you have so obviously done an extensive check,

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    Congrats you guys. Congrats. This thread is SO BAD I'm gonna go back to reading about US politics.
    Aye, sorry Drew.

    It's just that this forum was initially quite open and accepting of innovation, and we saw lots of great technical hacks contributed. It was the place where anything was worth a go, and we saw quite a few experiments etc posted. For that to continue we have to be open minded.

    But lately we have had rigid hard-liners creeping in and demanding we conform to their narrow views of what is acceptable. It's hardly been worth coming to this forum, so rather than just move on, I thought I'd at least try to address the issue.

    This Saturday, I'm out working helping to build a new access trail between my town and an adjacent village.

    We've had to raise £500,000 because there's bridges to build, land access, etc. Plus the political aspects and town planning.

    None of that would be happening if we were an exclusive group - it includes cyclists, walkers, horse riders, miscellaneous trail users, and yes, eBike riders. We cyclists could never have done it on our own, nor could any of the other groups. The expertise that has come from various members of our group, and ability of some of them to tap into funding and access to politicians is amazing - and that generally has come from the older segment, and guess what they're most likely to be on...

    And that's the point I'm trying to get across to the eBike haters for their own good. If they want trails, cooperate and engage the whole community instead of circling the wagons and starting a hatefest.

    Because when the community benefits then you get more political clout, it enables far more funds to be raised, and just as important, more people to work on the trail.
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  28. #128
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    Aye, sorry Drew.

    It's just that this forum was initially quite open and accepting of innovation, and we saw lots of great technical hacks contributed. It was the place where anything was worth a go, and we saw quite a few experiments etc posted. For that to continue we have to be open minded.

    But lately we have had rigid hard-liners creeping in and demanding we conform to their narrow views of what is acceptable. It's hardly been worth coming to this forum, so rather than just move on, I thought I'd at least try to address the issue.

    This Saturday, I'm out working helping to build a new access trail between my town and an adjacent village.

    We've had to raise £500,000 because there's bridges to build, land access, etc. Plus the political aspects and town planning.

    None of that would be happening if we were an exclusive group - it includes cyclists, walkers, horse riders, miscellaneous trail users, and yes, eBike riders. We cyclists could never have done it on our own, nor could any of the other groups. The expertise that has come from various members of our group, and ability of some of them to tap into funding and access to politicians is amazing - and that generally has come from the older segment, and guess what they're most likely to be on...

    And that's the point I'm trying to get across to the eBike haters for their own good. If they want trails, cooperate and engage the whole community instead of circling the wagons and starting a hatefest.

    Because when the community benefits then you get more political clout, it enables far more funds to be raised, and just as important, more people to work on the trail.



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  29. #129
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    Man people sure get upset over a cute video of Arnold riding around with a pony on private property with his fat ebike

  30. #130
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    Carful, that stallion is a stud. Guess Arnaldo is kind of cute with the man boobs

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by SADDLE TRAMP View Post

    And that's the point I'm trying to get across to the eBike haters for their own good. If they want trails, cooperate and engage the whole community instead of circling the wagons and starting a hatefest.
    Actually, e-bikes are an issue in the construction of new trails in my area, due to the multi jurisdictional nature of land management over here. Its common for relatively short trails to cross city, county, state, federal (both Forest Service and BLM land), conservation easements and private easements. BLM and Forest Service consider e-bikes to be motorized vehicles (that may change). But more importantly, many privately owned lands that grant trail easements have a non-motorized stipulation as part of their language. I can guarantee you that these private land owners could give a $hit about some People for Bikes lobbied classification of e-bikes being non-motorized. See, the general public seems to be able to comprehend that a bike with a motor on it is a motorized vehicle, and the people granting trail access across their private property often don't want motorized travel on their property.

    Why? Because this concept of "non-motorized" is a social ethic, a hypothetical line in the sand, if you will, that's has significant connotations for people and their interactions with the lands they recreate on. While hikers and horse people may not like mountain bikers, at least they're on the same side of this "non-motorized" line in the sand. E-bikes, or even the idea of e-bike access completely buggers up this whole thing. "But its only activated when you pedal!" - one of the dumbest arguments ever in defense of a motorized vehicle - semantic B.S.

    If you're too obtuse to get this, then consider also that e-bike haul a$$. They may not be motorcycles, or mopeds, but they are motorized, and you can flat out fly on these things on certain types of terrain and gradients where most normal riders could only sustain those speeds for short durations. It totally changes the dynamic of trail use, for the worse.

    Now, someone is going to chime in (again) with the old, gray haired, disabled, wounded war veteran, minority trans-gender, service animal carrying, person who should be granted motorized access to non-motorized trails. That a B.S red herring argument. There's a reason the Forest Service came out really early on stating that these things weren't OPMD's (if you don't know what that is, then you need to do some more homework on trail access and the e-bike argument).

    To quote on of my favorite NOFX songs, "Its OK, allow yourself a little hate." And I will. More, more, more, more access for more people via motorized bikes is not where I want to see the non-motorized part of my world heading. So yes, I will "rage, rage against the dying of the light". Call me a purist, a rigid hard liner, or narrow viewed. I call myself a mountain biker, and mountain bikes don't have motors.
    I would advise not taking my advice.

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by watermonkey View Post
    If you're too obtuse to get this, then consider also that e-bike haul a$$. They may not be motorcycles, or mopeds, but they are motorized, and you can flat out fly on these things on certain types of terrain and gradients where most normal riders could only sustain those speeds for short durations. It totally changes the dynamic of trail use, for the worse.
    This much is true. I tried out an e-bike at a bike demo last summer. I was flying up hills at 4x the speed I could pedal with little to no effort.

    I would never buy one though. Kinda defeats the purpose of why I bike.

  33. #133
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    FLASH Z


    I don't like e-bikes at all


    END FLASH MESSAGE
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  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by watermonkey View Post
    ...... See, the general public seems to be able to comprehend that a bike with a motor on it is a motorized vehicle, .....
    Amen to that
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    I'l take as an authority what constitutes an eBike the legislatures of various countries representing billions of people, not small special interest groups who have a different agenda, just as I don't accept the UCI's restrictions on what constitutes a bicycle.
    So you are saying that a vehicule with a battery and an electric motor is not a motorized vehicule ?
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by watermonkey View Post
    ...To quote on of my favorite NOFX songs, "Its OK, allow yourself a little hate." And I will. More, more, more, more access for more people via motorized bikes is not where I want to see the non-motorized part of my world heading. So yes, I will "rage, rage against the dying of the light". Call me a purist, a rigid hard liner, or narrow viewed. I call myself a mountain biker, and mountain bikes don't have motors.
    That's very sad. It's called painting yourself into a corner.

    The examples you have given are local to you. You do realise this is a world-wide site and many countries have open access policies and do not have the lack of freedom you sadly seem to face?

    When you leverage all the different types of access users, you get big numbers, and big numbers get you listened to, and get you access to funds to develop more trails.

    Sharing trails pays off. You get more trails.

    Perhaps you should be lobbying your politicians for better open access policies rather than fighting like rats for the last bit of cheese.
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  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    ...So you are saying that a vehicule with a battery and an electric motor is not a motorized vehicule ?
    Now that would be silly, wouldn't it?

    What I am saying is that many countries (including mine) classify a bicycle with limited power (usually 250 watts max) and where the assistance is only provided when the rider is actually pedalling is classified as an eBike, and it is regarded as a bicycle for all traffic and usage laws. Most also specify a speed where power is cut, here it is 15mph - which any decent cyclist can exceed no problem without power. So anywhere a bicycle can go, so can an eBike.

    Anything with more power and/or a throttle is regarded rightly as a motorbike and subject to all the laws pertaining to them, including number plates, insurance, registration, parking, access etc..
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  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    So you are saying that a vehicule with a battery and an electric motor is not a motorized vehicule ?
    So are you saying a bicycle with a motor is a motorized bicycle? Good to know a motorized FAT BIKE is still a FAT BIKE, and thus can be posted about in the FAT BIKE forum. Thanks for clearing that up for everybody

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Now that would be silly, wouldn't it?

    What I am saying is that many countries (including mine) classify a bicycle with limited power (usually 250 watts max) and where the assistance is only provided when the rider is actually pedalling is classified as an eBike, and it is regarded as a bicycle for all traffic and usage laws. Most also specify a speed where power is cut, here it is 15mph - which any decent cyclist can exceed no problem without power. So anywhere a bicycle can go, so can an eBike.

    Anything with more power and/or a throttle is regarded rightly as a motorbike and subject to all the laws pertaining to them, including number plates, insurance, registration, parking, access etc..
    The 250w power level is nominal, and self declared by the motor manufacturer. There isn't any limit on the peak power, which is steadily rising with each new model iteration along with torque. 600-750w is currently the range for peak, with torque 90-120nm. In dirtbike range.

    In the US, it's 750w nominal, no peak power limit and ebikes with throttles are legally the same as those with PAS systems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    fighting like rats for the last bit of cheese.
    LOL! In the U.S. we have parks that are bigger than entire European countries. There's lots and lots of 'cheese' already dedicated to motorized use. The issue here is people want everyone to pretend that their motor doesn't count as a motor, and they just want skip past any sort of actual advocacy work of their own and leave the whole mess for mountain bikers to sort out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    LOL! In the U.S. we have parks that are bigger than entire European countries. There's lots and lots of 'cheese' already dedicated to motorized use. The issue here is people want everyone to pretend that their motor doesn't count as a motor, and they just want skip past any sort of actual advocacy work of their own and leave the whole mess for mountain bikers to sort out.
    Well said !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    The issue here is people want everyone to pretend that their motor doesn't count as a motor, and they just want skip past any sort of actual advocacy work of their own and leave the whole mess for mountain bikers to sort out.

    LOLLLLL that is not "the issue here".. this is a video of someone using an ebike on private property. What the "issue" is here is a bunch of narrow minded people who get their underwear in a twist at the mere mention of an ebike, and start spouting off about trail access and advocacy as if it's relevant at all. People use ebikes for things other than riding on trails, as this video demonstrates.

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  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    LOL! In the U.S. we have parks that are bigger than entire European countries. There's lots and lots of 'cheese' already dedicated to motorized use. The issue here is people want everyone to pretend that their motor doesn't count as a motor, and they just want skip past any sort of actual advocacy work of their own and leave the whole mess for mountain bikers to sort out.
    In that case, if there's so much space and trails, why you are bothered?

    As for eBikers not contributing, the trail work I'll be doing tomorrow will be with the help of some eBikers whose advocacy and support has done a lot to get us the route and the funding. Maybe you're doing it wrong?

    Collaboration between different user groups works far better than squabbling over the cheese.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    ...In the US, it's 750w nominal, no peak power limit and ebikes with throttles are legally the same as those with PAS systems.
    As for power, if the eBike is limited to 15mph like it is in most countries, then there's not much point in more power than 250 watts because all you do is drain your battery really quickly and end up with a very heavy bicycle.

    You're talking about what most countries would regard as a motorbike, not an eBike.

    That's the issue you should be addressing, and it's a local legislative issue to you, so you should be addressing it locally and not on a world-wide forum.

    Even here where eBikes are legal and common, 5 miles from the trail head, guess how many eBikes you'd see?
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    Quote Originally Posted by watermonkey View Post
    There's a reason the Forest Service came out really early on stating that these things weren't OPMD's (if you don't know what that is, then you need to do some more homework on trail access and the e-bike argument).
    OPMD- Other Power Driven Mobility Device

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    Put this in the e-bike forum and nobody has an issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Put this in the e-bike forum and nobody has an issue.
    what is the issue? you saw the word ebike and it hurt your feelings?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Put this in the e-bike forum and nobody has an issue.

    Stop acting like an entitled snowflake and we get to the same result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Collaboration between different user groups works far better than squabbling over the cheese.
    Agreed.

    I don't know where your patience comes from VB, but I do admire it. Like it comes from nowhere, like a perpetual motion machine? IN THIS HOUSE WE OBEY THE LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS.

    I recall when E-bikes were really early onto the local MTB scene and there was a lot of talk talk talk in local forums (not this one). Oooooooo someone was gonna (euphemisms for doing violence), and then the actual ride happens, and, like, no one says anything.

    Meanwhile, irrespective of any of this E-bike stuff, the only ones tearing up my local trails are irresponsible youths and/or irresponsible drunkards leaving rooster tails all over the multi-use doubletrack thanks to their gas powered motocross bike. Everyone calls the cops, cops can't do jack about it in their squad cars, same two riders gleefully leave the same damage every year.

    In terms of public riders and E-bikes, hardly anyone gives a crap. My position has certainly softened on it quite a bit, and if I were to make one for profit (btw, not interested), I no longer fear being drawn and quartered.

    I just dislike the batteries. Every day a tech blog has something like REVOLUTIONARY BATTERY CHEMISTRY FOUND THAT WILL GIVE YOU A BACK MASSAGE AND MAKE YOU BREAKFAST FOOD, and it never gets manufactured. Because making batteries is mad difficult.
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  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    Agreed.

    I don't know where your patience comes from VB, but I do admire it. Like it comes from nowhere, like a perpetual motion machine? IN THIS HOUSE WE OBEY THE LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS...


    I like bicycles and their technology.

    In the past too many innovations have been killed off by just the sort of reactionary cliques we're seeing here. The UCI is bad enough, we don't have to do it to ourselves.

    As you know I think derailleurs and suspension are for the very frail elderly or children - but at least we have them which means those groups can get out and enjoy the countryside on their bikes, ie be inclusive, not exclusive. If you look at almost any picture of bikes destroying trails with rooster tails etc, they have derailleurs and suspension, but the fault is the rider's not the technology's.

    At the moment eBikes are at the leading edge of bicycle technology, and we will all benefit from the trickle down. eBikes are reaching critical mass where components will be designed for them instead of bicycle bits tacked on, and that's where the benefits will come because many of those bits will benefit us.

    I'll name a few areas where I expect to see those results.

    Transmissions will no longer be consumables. Mid-mounted enclosed gearboxes will introduce levels of reliability and endurance we haven't seen since the hub gear fell out of fashion 50 years or so ago, and the weight will be in the right part of the bike.

    Lighter bits. eBikes are heavy especially when their battery has died. That's going to put pressure on the manufacturers to find ways to lighten things up without the fragility we have been prepared to accept for weight weenie stuff. Just about every cycle part will benefit because it's going to be hard to lighten the batteries or the motor significantly.

    Brakes. The howl of disk brakes will be engineered out. The eBike consumer isn't going to want the hassle of keeping disks howl-free, and as less hard core cyclists will be less likely to accept the noise. We may also see antilock technology because OTBs or front ends sliding out will be unacceptable to eBikers.

    Suspension. I expect to see brake dive engineered out. That's what dumps a lot of neophytes on the ground, and it is a surefire sales killer to a non-enthusiast market, so it will be eliminated.

    There's lot more areas to improve, but there's an odd one that's a side effect.

    Clothing. The average eBiker isn't going to want to look like a technicolour sausage tightly contained in advert plastered expensive lycra, so I expect to see the demand for a lot of day to day clothing to become more wind and weatherproof and at day to day prices.

    And while all those improvements are happening, I'll still be out there, lugging my bike across bogs, over 7 foot deer fences, shouldering it over mountain passes, and wondering why all those young ones need anything more than a rigid singlespeed fatbike like I ride.

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  50. #150
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    I've just been sent this link.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/tech/elec...yW_73_JJQi5QqQ



    Innovation is happening faster than I thought, not to mention back to the future...
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  51. #151
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    Quarreling over ebikes at high organizational level too, apparently
    (The UCI and International Motorcycle association both want to lay claim to the type of bike)

    https://cyclingtips.com/2019/04/uci-...o-gets-ebikes/
    Last edited by Espen W; 04-06-2019 at 10:26 AM.

  52. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    In that case, if there's so much space and trails, why you are bothered?
    Who said I was bothered? I just don't want to be forced to waste my time arguing for e-bikes in order keep mountain bike access. I have no problem whatsoever sharing trails with e-bikes, or even real motos in many cases. But as far as sitting in boring ass meetings and arguing with HOHs and asshole environmentalists, I'm all set. Been there, done that, got better shit to do with my time. If e-bikers can concvince the powers that be to allow them on trails, more power to them. I'm just not willing to fight their fights for them.
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  53. #153
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    [QUOTE=frantik!;14042962]LOLLLLL that is not "the issue here".. /QUOTE]

    "Here". As in much of the US. You have to read all the sentences in a row, as well as understand what they are in response to, to get this thing called 'context'. Try it.
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  54. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    I've just been sent this link.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/tech/elec...yW_73_JJQi5QqQ



    Innovation is happening faster than I thought, not to mention back to the future...
    a crap CGI drawing of something that will never, ever, see production

    lots of that going around. fools some people
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  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    a crap CGI drawing of something that will never, ever, see production

    lots of that going around. fools some people
    I built something a folding penny farthing for myself a while back, not cgi, not electric, so I figure an electric one is feasible, but I agree cgi suggests it's either pretty ugly at this stage or vapourware.
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  56. #156
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    And to lighten the mood

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  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Stop acting like an entitled snowflake and we get to the same result.
    The irony is amazing. You call me an entitled snowflake for standing up for years of hard-fought and earned trail access, while e-bikers want the easy way in by calling their motorcycles bicycles. Who's entitled? Who can't handle criticism? Calling me names is apparently allowed here, so **** you, asshole.

  58. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    The irony is amazing. You call me an entitled snowflake for standing up for years of hard-fought and earned trail access, while e-bikers want the easy way in by calling their motorcycles bicycles. Who's entitled? Who can't handle criticism? Calling me names is apparently allowed here, so **** you, asshole.
    The strange irony is that your stance is in itself the definition of a snowflake; Further reinforced by you escalating the matter. BTW, you were not called a snowflake, it was your actions that were referred to as such.
    "Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway" John Wayne

  59. #159
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    NOTHING on the internet has ever made me SO FURIOUS as a 70 year old getting assistance to chase a pony!

    FEEL MY WORDWRATH, STRANGERS.

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    After years of being out of the bike world, I’m walking towards the light again. I read this entire thread.....it took a little while, what with my lips moving and the crayon eating. I won’t get the time back but it was instructional for me to see what I’ve missed and what’s up today.

    For you younger folks I can tell you that the world was more fun before the internet. Maybe not as informative from a research perspective but certainly the world was better adjusted to deal with itself than is currently the case.

  61. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    The irony is amazing. You call me an entitled snowflake for standing up for years of hard-fought and earned trail access, while e-bikers want the easy way in by calling their motorcycles bicycles. Who's entitled? Who can't handle criticism? Calling me names is apparently allowed here, so **** you, asshole.

    This thread is about an e-fatbike being ridden around someone's yard, and on pavement. Were you so angry that you missed that?

    You have continually dragged it off topic. You.

    If you don't like it, don't click on it.

    If you want to do good for the sport, do that. This -- whatever you call it -- isn't that.

    As for the name calling and cursing? Way to take the high road...

    ...not.

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    I think the biggest problem from the evidence the OP posted is the possibility of the inside pedal jacking up the lawn on that left hand turn.

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    This was originally intended to show a famous celebrity (namely Aronld) on FAT BIKE with a battery assist chasing around his pony in his own yard. I thought it was a fun video and showing a FAT BIKE. It was not to show a regular mountain bike/or road bike with a battery assist. It was a FAT BIKE and I figured it was appropriate for a FAT BIKE thread.

    Now most of us know that Arnold was an Action Film Star and World Champ Body Builder. I don't think any of us can tell for sure if all the stunts and workouts that he's done have affected his knees, and therefore limited his mobility. If that's the case or even if that's not the case, who is anyone to try and limit his ability to have fun and get some exercise and enjoyment?

    He was on a FAT BIKE.

    So there's always some malcontents. It's the nature of some humans. I ran into (not figuratively) into an FAT E BIKE rider in our local trails. Spoke with him for awhile, and he was very content just to be able to get out and ride because his knees were toast from football. So while speaking with him we started talking about tires. He said he got a flat and brought it in to the local bike shop, and the owner fixed the tire and sent him on his way (BTW the owner of the LBS shot me some shade we he found out I was on a FAT BIKE). The FAT E BIKE rider then brought his bike into the LBS and the owner said he wouldn't work on it because it was an E BIKE. Sucks to turn down business because of an unfounded prejudice (that's all part of our country's troubles IMHO).

    Now I sold one of my FAT BIKES to the guy that does the trail maintenance in the State Park and he does this work GRATIS, who also turned out to be a friend after meeting him on the trails. He loves the FAT BIKES in the park because they don't tear up the trails like a typical mountain bike.

    So we can all have our complaints, and we can all try and pretend that we are the chosen ones, but when it comes down to it, anecdotal cases of jerks that cause trouble are usually just that, anecdotal and not the norm.

    So I'm definitely with the folks that say we should all work together and enjoy our biking, no matter what type of bike, and be glad that people are able to enjoy the same as those of us that are able bodied. It's our duty to be diligent and protect trails not necessarily from different types of bikes, but rather those idiots that ruin it for all.

    This FATBIKE forum has been usually a great place with lots of common courtesy and a generosity of sharing knowledge and advice. Of course we have had a small number of people who just want to instill their own will and prejudices upon others. Wish they could just let it go and find a better outlet for their frustrations.

    I still think it was an appropriate FATBIKE video, and am surprised at the way it turned out.
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  64. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    I would just like to point out that the BLM is not the whole world, just a tiny tiny part of it.

    Missed this when you first shared it. Please insert "deeply flawed and eminently untrustworthy" within any/every future invocation of the BLM.

  65. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bumpyride View Post
    ...I still think it was an appropriate FATBIKE video, and am surprised at the way it turned out.
    So do I, but I'm not surprised. Just about every advance in cycling has been bitterly opposed.

    The very first bicycle.
    The safety bike from the penny farthing.
    Bikes for women.
    The introduction of the freewheel.
    Pneumatic tyres.
    Gears
    etc etc

    And not that many years back if you wanted to fit wider tyres than 1.9" on your mtb the "experts' and arbiters of righteousness would heap scorn on you because the racers used the narrower tyre so obviously there was no need for more. Then it was 29er wheels, followed by 650b wheels, etc.

    They're monotonous twits who hop on the latest fashion for bitter negativity and scorn, and I usually ignore them. However this forum which has been a hotbed of innovation was getting swamped anytime an eBike was legitimately mentioned so I thought it worth stepping in rather than moving on.

    If we can keep them at bay for long enough they'll find something else to hate, and we can get on with mucking around with our fatbikes.
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  66. #166
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  67. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    m-o-t-o-r-c-y-c-l-e
    Not classified as such in most of the rest of the world. And yes we know it has a small electric motor.

    Raise your objections in the forum appropriate to your legislature (there's one for every state of your country), not in an international forum where you simply sound like a obnoxious child having a tantrum because we won't change our classification to suit your prejudices.

    In short, go and vomit elsewhere.
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  68. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    What I am saying is that many countries (including mine) classify a bicycle with limited power (usually 250 watts max) and where the assistance is only provided when the rider is actually pedalling is classified as an eBike, and it is regarded as a bicycle for all traffic and usage laws. Most also specify a speed where power is cut, here it is 15mph - which any decent cyclist can exceed no problem without power. So anywhere a bicycle can go, so can an eBike.

    Anything with more power and/or a throttle is regarded rightly as a motorbike and subject to all the laws pertaining to them, including number plates, insurance, registration, parking, access etc..
    I don't have a dog in this fight. And could possibly see the day where I can no longer pedal like I once did so I keep an open mind about the e-bike thing. But my country looks at it differently and this is the reality of what we have to deal with.

    The Forest Service considers technologies that merge bicycles and motors (gas, batteries or electric powered) as motor vehicles. E-bikes, therefore, would be considered a motorized vehicle and not allowed on non-motorized trails.

    https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/bdnf/news-events/?cid=FSEPRD601048

    E bike and Arnold.-capture.jpg

    https://peopleforbikes.org/wp-conten...Fed-2016-1.pdf

  69. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    ... And yes we know it has a small electric motor.
    That's a good start !
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  70. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by frantik! View Post
    So are you saying a bicycle with a motor is a motorized bicycle? Good to know a motorized FAT BIKE is still a FAT BIKE, and thus can be posted about in the FAT BIKE forum. Thanks for clearing that up for everybody
    I'm saying that a vehicule with a motor is a motorized vehicule and thus belong to the Motorcycle sub-forum where it is safe to post about them.
    You won't get any criticism or objections over there.
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  71. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
    I don't have a dog in this fight. And could possibly see the day where I can no longer pedal like I once did so I keep an open mind about the e-bike thing. But my country looks at it differently and this is the reality of what we have to deal with.

    The Forest Service considers technologies that merge bicycles and motors (gas, batteries or electric powered) as motor vehicles. E-bikes, therefore, would be considered a motorized vehicle and not allowed on non-motorized trails....
    I have no problem with that, but your Forest Service rules do not apply to the rest of the world.

    And the answer is simple.

    If someone uses an eBike in your state, then the place to express outrage is in your state's section of mtbr, not in the part which has an international focus.
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  72. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    I have no problem with that, but your Forest Service rules do not apply to the rest of the world.
    And vice-versa.
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  73. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    If someone uses an eBike in your state, then the place to express outrage is in your state's section of mtbr, not in the part which has an international focus.
    Might be international, but I would guess 95% or more of the posters in this forum are in the U.S. which is why there is all the banter in this thread about e-bikes

  74. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    I have no problem with that, but your Forest Service rules do not apply to the rest of the world.
    And the 250w EU laws don't apply to the rest of the world either. It's different everywhere.

  75. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savageheartland View Post
    After years of being out of the bike world, I’m walking towards the light again. I read this entire thread.....it took a little while, what with my lips moving and the crayon eating. I won’t get the time back but it was instructional for me to see what I’ve missed and what’s up today.

    For you younger folks I can tell you that the world was more fun before the internet. Maybe not as informative from a research perspective but certainly the world was better adjusted to deal with itself than is currently the case.
    Another green chiclet for you, my friend.
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    Hey so maybe this is a little off topic, but, uh, given how this thread has progressed, I think the following video is, eeeeeyyyyyyeeeeaaah fairly relevant to this situation. And more than one party is participating. Does the shoe fit for you?

    HUGE ASTERISK: The example video is using present-day conservative politics AS AN EXAMPLE, I am not at all interested in stoking political discussion of the non-bicycle kind, I have better things to do. I am much more interested in how "controlling the conversation" does not foster understanding. Moving threads to another subforum should be done when it is overwhelmingly and obviously the wrong freaking topic. The presence of the motor does not remove the human cranks, it uses bicycle parts, it has fat tires.

    And if Ahhhnold were reading this thread he'd be like GET OUUUUUT! NOW! Maybe that E-bike will make it faster to GET TO THE CHOPPA.

    With that in mind: Controlling the Conversation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaPgDQkmqqM
    Disclaimer: I run Regular Cycles (as of 2016). As a profiteer of the bicycle industry, I am not to be taken very seriously.

  77. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    With that in mind: Controlling the Conversation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaPgDQkmqqM
    Holy smoke! I get it now. Though I was more comfortable when understanding conversation control remained mysterious. Back then I had hope. Not anymore.
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  78. #178
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    Lost me at "liberals don't like letting false statements slide".

    LOL!
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  79. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Lost me at "liberals don't like letting false statements slide".

    LOL!
    You just proved his point.
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  80. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    This thread is about an e-fatbike being ridden around someone's yard, and on pavement. Were you so angry that you missed that?

    You have continually dragged it off topic. You.

    If you don't like it, don't click on it.

    If you want to do good for the sport, do that. This -- whatever you call it -- isn't that.

    As for the name calling and cursing? Way to take the high road...

    ...not.
    NO
    This thread actually started this long running debate because someone posted a ebike post in the fatbike form, MTBR has many different forms for from apparel and protection, beer, and to all kinds of bikes and bike things, very specific. I assume the reason for this is so that a person won’t have to look all the different topics that you are not interested in. This is like me posting about my mountain bike that i put road tires on in the road bike form and getting all butt hurt because it got move to the appropriate mountain bike form. So why in the world would someone object to moving an ebike post to the correct form, all I can figure is that they are trying to get some exposer to sell some ebikes. If you look at the ebike form it has a whole 858 post almost the least amount of all the forms. So with that kind of moment you can see ebikes are defiantly the future.

  81. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Lost me at "liberals don't like letting false statements slide".

    LOL!
    I'll admit, it is *not* a flawless point being made in the video. To emphasize, was trying to use as an example.

    If we wanted to seriously delineate "where does this belong because I don't want to see it", we'd need like an E-fat-bike-specific forum, which the mods could do, while also injuring their vision with all the eye rolling.
    Disclaimer: I run Regular Cycles (as of 2016). As a profiteer of the bicycle industry, I am not to be taken very seriously.

  82. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by exp18 View Post
    This is like me posting about my mountain bike that i put road tires on in the road bike form and getting all butt hurt because it got move to the appropriate mountain bike form.
    Except the post hasn't been moved, because it is in an appropriate forum. It's a video of someone using a fat bike. The people who are butthurt are those who want to contain all ebike discussion in the ebike forum, even if it is on topic elsewhere. If you have a 29er bike and you have an issue with your drive train, you can post in the drivetrain forum and be on topic. It's not like you MUST ONLY post in the 29er forum if you have a 29er.

    There's no need to segregate ebike discussion just so that people who get butthurt over ebikes can feel better. If OP had put "fat bike" in the thread title instead of "ebike" -- same exact video, just a few letters different in the title -- this whole thing would have gone a totally different way. The people drawn to ebike threads like a moth to a flame would never know about Arnold and his pony and his electric assist fat bike.
    Last edited by frantik!; 04-09-2019 at 03:50 PM.

  83. #183
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    [ If OP had put "fat bike" in the thread title instead of "ebike" -- same exact video, just a few letters different in the title -- this whole thing would have gone a totally different way. The people drawn to ebike threads like a moth to a flame would never know about Arnold and his pony and his electric assist fat bike.[/QUOTE]

    I agree. Once the title of the post is out there, can't change it. Did edit the body, to Fat E, but that didn't help.

    You know whenever I see something in a forum I don't like, I just don't click. Seems easy enough. Of course if you're unhappy in your life, you can always click and bitch. Just seems counterproductive, and as Dr. Frasier Crane would sign off: "Wishing you good mental health."
    Dash Pt. State Park (Tacoma), Big Sky Montana during Snowboard Season, Duluth Mn, a couple of times of year incl. Xmas.

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