Disappointed with my Pugsleys performance in the snow- Mtbr.com
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 200 of 214
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133

    Disappointed with my Pugsleys performance in the snow

    Hey all, I recently bought a new pugsley. Larry front and Endo rear on large marges.

    I bought the bike as a winter commuter thinking it would be excellent in the snow. It is a fun bike, but I'm having a lot of trouble with front wheel washouts in deep-ish snow. If the terrain is anything but flat under the snow, the front tire slips out from under me.

    I can ride my road bike with 28mm slicks and get less front wheel washout.

    Is there something I am missing here? Will one of the other tires offer better performance in the snow than the Larry?

    I'm starting to worry that I just wasted 1500 dollars on a gimmick and should have just got a cross check with studied tires.
    Last edited by ultraspontane; 12-04-2011 at 11:20 PM.

  2. #2
    Geordie biker
    Reputation: saltyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    1,376
    first off, what pressures are you running?
    2014 milage so far - 2,485
    www.ukfatbikes.co.uk

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    Low pressures. From 5 to 10 PS I.

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    1,742
    Can you quantify "washes out"? Also, every tire pressure gauge I've tried gives me a different reading, so maybe you are under or over inflated more than you think?

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation: NOBBY605's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    379
    Get a Nate for the front.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: GTR2ebike's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    1,872
    Quote Originally Posted by NOBBY605 View Post
    Get a Nate for the front.
    +1, if it's still washing out in icy conditions get get some grip studs http://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/spi...te-754207.html

    BUT from what I know (about cars) skinnier tires are better in the snow, on pavement. You want a tire that is going to cut through the snow or slush so the tire reaches the pavement. A fat bike adds flotation, so basically the opposite. Obviously their is a transition, in conditions, where a fat bike would be better but I think you'd need a lot of snow or very hard packed snow.
    Last edited by GTR2ebike; 12-04-2011 at 05:22 AM.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ecub's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    457
    I'm not sure if it matters, since I'm still waiting on my fat bike to come in, but is the snow slushy, soft, or hard packed?
    - Ed

    2012 Trek Madone 6.7 SSL
    2013 Specialized Tricross Comp Disc
    2011 Trek Top Fuel 9.9 SSL
    2012 Salsa Mukluk 2

  8. #8
    Chad
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    58
    Another consideration might just be your fit and weight distribution. My experience has shown that the classic fit you (I was) used to didn't suit. Try a much more upright position and little more "english" in your steering technique. Lighten up on your grip and let the front feel "lighter". Also, a "bigger turning radius" frame of mind will give you less of the "pushed" feeling when cornering in deeper and looser stuff.

    Just my thoughts...

  9. #9
    PSYCHOLUST
    Reputation: scyule's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    483
    The most surprising thing for me riding my FATBACK last winter was that the SNOW was different every single ride.
    Variables like outside temp and humidity and if the snow was new over old..... Every single ride was quite different.
    I too had rides when I didn't seem to be able to get the tires to hook up , but I also had rides when I laughed out loud riding up snow covered hills I couldn't have hoped to walk up without slipping and falling

    Some of the others have spoken about TIRE PRESSURE, which is HUGE, a couple of PSI either way will make a big difference. And buying a GOOD digital tire gauge will help you find your perfect pressure and be able to duplicate it.

    There will be rides that aren't that great,( hopfully very few) but looking back at last winter has me itching to get out in the snow again.
    Getting your bike dialed in with regards to FIT and TIRE PRESSURE, even fine tuning the way you ride will go along way to making your PUGS a thrill to ride.

    I hope by spring you will look out on the first green day and feel a little bit sad that SNOW BIKING is over til the next fall.

  10. #10
    is buachail foighneach me
    Reputation: sean salach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    6,589
    FWIW, fatbikes weren't originally created for moshing through fresh snow. A narrower tire that will bite through is usually going to be better in fresh snow over hardpack. The wider tires work better on marginally packed snow, crust, and fresh snow over either.

  11. #11
    is buachail foighneach me
    Reputation: sean salach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    6,589
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    ....

    I'm starting to worry that I just wasted 1500 dollars on a gimmick and should have just got a cross check with studied tires.

    Calling it a gimmick is pretty insulting to the makers and the people who have a use for one. I don't have a use for a cnc machine, but it's certainly an efficient tool for those that do. I'm sure I could find a use for one, but using a cnc machine to cut my toast in the morning would be pretty impractical.

  12. #12
    Compulsive Bike Builder
    Reputation: DirtDad's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    1,512
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    ...I'm having a lot of trouble with front wheel washouts in deep-ish snow. If the terrain is anything but flat under the snow, the front tire slips out from under me.
    I have had similar experience. If the tire cuts through all the way to a hard slick surface, I slip around and fall. It is only when there is enough snow to actually get on top of and float over the top that the fat bike starts doing what it is made for. Steering/leaning is different when things get slippery, try to keep more upright.

    For an example of me falling in snow that is not deep enough, followed by a fun ride over deeper stuff where I was able to float, click the vid. Later in the vid, where I am floating over snow, you can see two sets of tracks left by 2 "regular" mountain bikers. They stick to the shallower snow so their skinnier tires slice through to traction. I actually prefer the side of the trail with more snow, floating over it.

    <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/lBHJPgdnytc?rel=0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>
    Disclaimer: ComCycle USA

  13. #13
    The Dog.
    Reputation: Dogdude222's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    959
    Quote Originally Posted by DirtDad View Post
    I have had similar experience. If the tire cuts through all the way to a hard slick surface, I slip around and fall.
    Nate's...no question. Problem solved.

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: thickfog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    1,269
    You mentioned 5-10 psi. 5 psi is a huge difference with high volume tires. Get your pressures correct and go from there.
    But yes, these are floatation bikes. On certain snow types they will float on top and wash out. Certain instances require skinny studded tires.
    Don't give up. They are not gimmicks. My pugs opened up three more months of riding for me.
    CRAMBA Chairman

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    73
    I haven't rode my fat bike in the snow yet and don't know how it will perform. But, I have been riding tires with different configurations to make it ride able in snow/ice. If you are riding on puffy snow on roads where the tire slices through the snow then studded tires would be ideal. They grip what is on the bottom of the light snow. The only time I have trouble with studded tires when the snow becomes dense and the tires starts to lift off the ground and skimming on top. It becomes impossible to ride. I believe floatation would be ideal for this condition. I believe that I will be using the fat bike mostly for trail riding and keeping my old mountain bike fitted with studded Nokians for on roads that have ice and compressed snow.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    Quote Originally Posted by Dogdude222 View Post
    Nate's...no question. Problem solved.

    I was hoping someone would say this. Do you find that the nates are a better tire in the snow versus a Larry?

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation: lancelot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    996
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    I was hoping someone would say this. Do you find that the nates are a better tire in the snow versus a Larry?
    So far it's better than the Endo also IMO.
    The LPG

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation: vikb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    13,140
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post

    I'm starting to worry that I just wasted 1500 dollars on a gimmick and should have just got a cross check with studied tires.
    No single bike/tire is going to handle all winter conditions perfectly. A Cross Check with studded tires will definitely be a better choice than a fat bike for some conditions. OTOH a fatbike will get you through unconsolidated snow and unplowed roads/paths that a standard tire just isn't going to handle.

    I'd also add that a fatbike is a totally different beast than a normal bike so you need to spend some time learning how best to ride it in a variety of conditions. Playing with tire pressure, etc... Riding conditions can change by the hour during a storm or if temperatures are fluctuating.

    As much as I love my Pugsley depending on your commute a CC with studded tires could well have been a better choice. Totally comes down to what you have to ride through to get to work.

    As a note I rode my Pugs with Endos front and back for 2 Canadian winters and didn't have any serious problems in the city. Not to say my front wheel never washed out, but it wasn't a non-stop occurrence or something that caused me any difficulty getting around town. By all accounts Larrys are better than Endos as front tire so you already have better rubber up front than I did. If you want to buy Nates go for it - they definitely have a more aggressive tread, but I wouldn't feel that spending $200 on new tires was needed right off the bat.

    I'd ride the Pugs a bunch more and play varying air pressures first.
    Last edited by vikb; 12-04-2011 at 12:59 PM.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  19. #19
    Geordie biker
    Reputation: saltyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    1,376
    i know when i owned a mukluk, with larrys front and rear, i never touched the pressures once.......i think i stuck 18-20psi in them when i built it and done every mile for 4-5 months without touching them again!!!!

    i simply rode snow, gravel, tarmac and what ever else as the bike was, getting used to it was key.

    been messing with pressures on my pugsley and it really helps at times, but im not strict, i only ever drop the pressures when im on the beach.
    2014 milage so far - 2,485
    www.ukfatbikes.co.uk

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    162
    I am extremely happy with my pugsley. It will go places no standard bike will go- as long as you can keep it moving forward

    It seems the only time I stall out is when I try to ride through what I call "grader snow" this happens when the road graders plow the roads and all that snow ends up on the side walk or bike path, not so bad when it freezes but when it is punchy it is challenging-no fault of the bike. Tire pressure is also key. I have had to experiment a little, when you get it right -major difference. I might also mention this is my first year riding in snow what fun.

  21. #21
    aka bOb
    Reputation: bdundee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    8,679
    I bought some Ice skates once and still fell down!! Gimmick? I had some snow tires on my car and still got stuck!! Gimmick? Rust proofed my car...................... ? They aren't perfect but they are fun! Give it time, you will get your bike and yourself dialed in.

  22. #22
    Caveman
    Reputation: Bearbait's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,002
    If you are able to ride it on 28mm slicks then commuting on studs would be way better. Like others have said you are just cutting down to the pavement. Once it's actually packed snow you'll be happy on the pugs.

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Velobike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    7,171
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    ...I can ride my road bike with 28mm slicks and get less front wheel washout.

    Is there something I am missing here? Will one of the other tires offer better performance in the snow than the Larry?...
    It's probably a matter of perception.

    I've ridden over stuff and thought much the same, but when I've walked back a bit to get a photo, my feet have sunk deep into the surface and I've realised that I've ridden the unrideable.

    Nonetheless, I don't expect to be able to ride everything. To me a decent ride means having to get off and push/carry/ lift the bike at some stage.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
    Latitude: 57º36' Highlands, Scotland

  24. #24
    will rant for food
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    3,836
    ultraspontane I'd like to know the temperatures you're riding in. I did some Pug commuting last winter, and temp has a big impact.
    Disclaimer: I run Regular Cycles (as of 2016). As a profiteer of the bicycle industry, I am not to be taken very seriously.

  25. #25
    Frt Range, CO
    Reputation: pursuiter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    2,576
    Front wheel washout is a big issue with the stock Pugs in snow, I'm waiting to hear if the Nate really solves the problem before I spend the $$ on one.

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,631
    Nate will probably give you more traction & "hold", but it might lessen your "floatation". The more and bigger the tread, the more it digs into the surface like saw teeth. Around here, we get allot of ice. Even up in the mtns there's often a section of slippery ice on the way up to the packed snow. sometimes we've got a little fresh snow w/ ice hidden underneath. I don't care how big, soft or treaded your tires are, when you've got slick ice, studs are the only answer. Why there's not yet a production studded tire yet, I don't know. The fact that they (stock FB's anyway) just don't work very well on icy conditions is one of the reasons I believe they don't sell very well around here. For non-pavement snow & Ice rides I use #6 3/8" sheet metal screws in Endo's for grip on the ice and max. floatation when we get up to the packed snow. Sheet metal screws work better than studs because of they're sharp points and the threads offer grip too when "gettin' sideways". Trouble is they wear down fast if you take them on the pavement (and damage the pavement). I don't stud down the middle of the tire to keep resistance down. I really hope Surly (or someone) will at least offer us a tire w/ "Stud Wells" so we can at least have the option of a "stud kit". When I'm commuting on snow & Ice, I regularly get passed by a guy w/ studded tires on a cross bike... kind of makes the "snow bike" look kinda silly. Come on Surly, WE NEED A PRODUCTION STUDDED TIRE OPTION!

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6435152141/" title="S1020068 by wardee61, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7007/6435152141_3eed540568_z.jpg" width="427" height="640" alt="S1020068"></a>

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ecub's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    457
    Quote Originally Posted by ward View Post
    Nate will probably give you more traction & "hold", but it might lessen your "floatation". The more and bigger the tread, the more it digs into the surface like saw teeth. Around here, we get allot of ice. Even up in the mtns there's often a section of slippery ice on the way up to the packed snow. sometimes we've got a little fresh snow w/ ice hidden underneath. I don't care how big, soft or treaded your tires are, when you've got slick ice, studs are the only answer. Why there's not yet a production studded tire yet, I don't know. The fact that they (stock FB's anyway) just don't work very well on icy conditions is one of the reasons I believe they don't sell very well around here. For non-pavement snow & Ice rides I use #6 3/8" sheet metal screws in Endo's for grip on the ice and max. floatation when we get up to the packed snow. Sheet metal screws work better than studs because of they're sharp points and the threads offer grip too when "gettin' sideways". Trouble is they wear down fast if you take them on the pavement (and damage the pavement). I don't stud down the middle of the tire to keep resistance down. I really hope Surly (or someone) will at least offer us a tire w/ "Stud Wells" so we can at least have the option of a "stud kit". When I'm commuting on snow & Ice, I regularly get passed by a guy w/ studded tires on a cross bike... kind of makes the "snow bike" look kinda silly. Come on Surly, WE NEED A PRODUCTION STUDDED TIRE OPTION!


    I've contacted Schwalbe and asked if they were making fat tires and studded fat tires as well. Just waiting on a reply. I'm sure if Surly, Schwalbe, sees enough requests from people with fat bikes, they would do something about it.
    - Ed

    2012 Trek Madone 6.7 SSL
    2013 Specialized Tricross Comp Disc
    2011 Trek Top Fuel 9.9 SSL
    2012 Salsa Mukluk 2

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    I bought some Ice skates once and still fell down!! Gimmick? I had some snow tires on my car and still got stuck!! Gimmick? Rust proofed my car...................... ? They aren't perfect but they are fun! Give it time, you will get your bike and yourself dialed in.
    Well, when my single speed road bike is getting around better in the snow than my pugsley, it really does seem like a gimmick.

    Just so I have this straight, the pugsley is only better than narrow tires on hard pack or snowmobile trails? What good is a ride anywhere bike if you have to stick to snowmobile trails? I thought the whole point was being able to venture off into areas you wouldn't otherwise go. Float is great, but if there is no traction, what is the point?

    I said I bought the pugsley as winter commuter, but I also had high hopes for it as a winter mountain bike. My experience so far is bad slippage on angled terrain, so it also sort of nixes that idea too...

    I've tried various tire pressures, and have a digital pressure guage. No matter what the pressure, it doesn' grip in deep snow as well as my 28mm slick. I imagine a 35mm studded cross tire would be head and shoulders above that, too.

    If you guys think the nate will significantly improve traction in snow, I'd be willing to try it. I really want this to work. But if it doesn't, I see no reason to keep a 1500 dollar novelty in my stable.

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Velobike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    7,171
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    ...I see no reason to keep a 1500 dollar novelty in my stable.
    Take it off the track, snow is just one of the Pug's environments.



    Also gearing and weight distribution is important to making progress in snow.



    But if you are not happy with the bike, then this is the absolute best time to sell it. A queue is probably already forming...
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
    Latitude: 57º36' Highlands, Scotland

  30. #30
    Moon Child
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    148
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    Well, when my single speed road bike is getting around better in the snow than my pugsley, it really does seem like a gimmick. ........ I really want this to work. But if it doesn't, I see no reason to keep a 1500 dollar novelty in my stable.
    No reason to keep it. Dont keep it as an reminder of your personal failures. You know, developing your skills, learning from the knowledge of experts - blame the bike.

    Spend the 1,500 to get therapy.


  31. #31
    Harmonius Wrench
    Reputation: Guitar Ted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,256
    My thoughts;

    I've ridden my Mukluk as a commuter in snow enough to know that it beats a 28mm road tire most of the time for me. I get that narrow tires do work a trick sometimes. I've got co-workers rocking narrow cross tires and riding fixies to work and back too. I know they are going no faster than I was on my Muk, or my Karate Monkey, for that matter. It's all in what you have a belief in and what your skill level is to a great degree.

    That said, I saw someone bring up weight distribution. On a SS roadie, you've probably got a lot more weight on the front end than you do on a Pugs. Hit a turn with loose non-consolidated snow, and it doesn't take much imagination to see what will happen with any unweighted front tire. Not saying this is your issue, but it is an idea to think over.

    If you have no issues riding the SS roadies in certain conditions, I'd just stick to what you know when you need to ride. Use the Pugs for times when you have fun rides, and learn the bike, perhaps. Find out its strengths and weaknesses and decide from there where you want to go.

    Maybe it'll work out and you'll keep it, and then again, maybe not. Knowledge is priceless. At least you'd have given it a fair shake.
    Riden' an Smilin'
    Guitar Ted

    Blog
    RidingGravel.com

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mikeyonthemadone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    338
    Quote Originally Posted by ecub View Post
    I've contacted Schwalbe and asked if they were making fat tires and studded fat tires as well. Just waiting on a reply. I'm sure if Surly, Schwalbe, sees enough requests from people with fat bikes, they would do something about it.
    If you have contact info for them, post it and let's all give them a shout!


    Mikey

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation: vikb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    13,140
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    I said I bought the pugsley as winter commuter, but I also had high hopes for it as a winter mountain bike. My experience so far is bad slippage on angled terrain, so it also sort of nixes that idea too...


    I've ridden lots of MTB trails in the winter [up and down] with my Pugs running Endos [Gasp!!!...] - so have many other folks. Not sure what to tell you. Slipping and sliding a bit is a part of snow biking just like it is riding on a muddy trail.



    You can either ride the Pugs a bunch more and figure out how other folks are doing it or sell it and ride something that makes you happy.



    Nates may help, but I wouldn't assume they'll be a silver bullet and radically change everything.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  34. #34
    Nemophilist
    Reputation: TrailMaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,873
    All kinds of problems here;

    - I think your expectations are all screwed up. Nothing works in every circumstance. Snow is as variable as people are. I'd not think that flotation on street snow over pavement would work at all. Street snow with salt in it is like riding in greased sand. Near impossible. Farmer tires that dig through to the hard base is the trick there. I'd think that would be a DUH.
    - Proper setup ALWAYS works. Proper knowledge and application to implement it also helps just a tad. "I just bought this new Porsche, took it to the track, and wrecked it. What's wrong with this stupid car?" Really?
    - If you just want to get there, take the bus. If you want the adventure, pay your dues and give the equipment a chance.
    - I'll give you $500 for it if it's that worthless to you.

  35. #35
    will rant for food
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    3,836
    ultraspontane I'd still like an answer on temps you've ridden in so far. I did a group ride today in the high 20s, things were sloppy. The fat tires were slipping all over, the "skinny" tires were slipping all over.

    Another thought, how many miles and how many rides have you done? I'm not trying to attack your credibility or anything, just, have you given the thing a thorough shake yet?

    As has been mentioned, snow comes in lots of varieties. I've had more than a few "WTF this is a snow bike?" moments, thankfully mine weren't at the beginning of trying the bike.
    Disclaimer: I run Regular Cycles (as of 2016). As a profiteer of the bicycle industry, I am not to be taken very seriously.

  36. #36
    wheelmanron
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    59
    I'd like to add something from a different view. How high is your stem? I don't know about anyone else, but I found when riding in snow, I had the stem too high at first. It seemed that I didn't have enough weight on the front end. I flipped the stem, and I was more comfortable, and the front end seemed to hook up much better. Maybe just my imagination, but a free experiment.

  37. #37
    100+ wheel-build club
    Reputation: johnny settle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    199
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    Hey all, I recently bought a new pugsley. Larry front and Endo rear on large marges.

    I bought the bike as a winter commuter thinking it would be excellent in the snow. It is a fun bike, but I'm having a lot of trouble with front wheel washouts in deep-ish snow. If the terrain is anything but flat under the snow, the front tire slips out from under me.

    I can ride my road bike with 28mm slicks and get less front wheel washout.

    Is there something I am missing here? Will one of the other tires offer better performance in the snow than the Larry?

    I'm starting to worry that I just wasted 1500 dollars on a gimmick and should have just got a cross check with studied tires.
    I felt the same way when I first got my Pug. The wash-out reminded me of the old Panaracer Dart tires. I almost instantly switched to an Endo. front and the problem was instantly MUCH better. ***I have not tried Nates or 45NRTH's ***but I don't feel (skinny) Larry's are a good snow tire-its not the bike.
    "Go that way REAL FAST, if something gets in your way... turn".

  38. #38
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    859
    I give you...

    BLUE STEEL



  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    73
    Put a rack up front and attach couple of sandbags. It is going to help the front wheel sink in the snow to achieve zero floatation. It might also good to do the rear too.

  40. #40
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,243
    Quote Originally Posted by johnny settle View Post
    I felt the same way when I first got my Pug. The wash-out reminded me of the old Panaracer Dart tires. I almost instantly switched to an Endo. front and the problem was instantly MUCH better. ***I have not tried Nates or 45NRTH's ***but I don't feel (skinny) Larry's are a good snow tire-its not the bike.
    JS I don't doubt this worked for you but this experience is counter to most peoples experience with Larrys and Endos in the front. Maybe it would work for the OP though.
    Latitude 61

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation: RockyRider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    822
    Depending on the snow conditions there are times when I prefer the Endo up front because of the flatter profile. It keeps the snow from squirting out of one side vs the other and prevents "jackknife" tenancies.

  42. #42
    mtbr member
    Reputation: lancelot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    996
    If you want to experience some serious washing out in the conditions you described throw a BFL up front. Talk about going for a slippery ride.
    The LPG

  43. #43
    This place needs an enema
    Reputation: mikesee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    13,359
    Snow doesn't behave the same as dirt.

    In other words, if you're expecting to lean over and have the bike carve a turn on snow, you're going to be waiting a long time.

    Sometimes you can do it. But not very often.

    More often, snow just moves out of the way when you push into it. Whether you're straight up and down, leaning hard, leaning easy, or powersliding with a Luke Duke look of concentration on your face doesn't make too much difference. It moves, you adapt and keep riding. Or, you don't adapt, and you go down.

    No biggie that--it's snow. Doesn't really hurt.

    Stop expecting snow to behave like dirt and you'll probably start to understand.

    MC

  44. #44
    Hybrid Leftys aren't real Moderator
    Reputation: MendonCycleSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    15,944
    It's really quite simple.

    Bring a skinny tired friend along on a few different condition snow rides.

    You'll quickly figure out when it's advantageous, and when it's not. But when it is? Your buddy will hate your bike and you, in the worst way..
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

    - FrostyStruthers



    www.mendoncyclesmith.com

  45. #45
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    Whoa, some butthurt fatbikers in here.

    You see, I'm not the type of person that trys to justify my purchase with confirmation bias. If something I just paid a lot of money for doesent live up to the hype, I'm not going to try to convince myself otherwise, I'll just admit it. Those fat tires sure are cool to look at but so far they have been a letdown in the performance department (at least with snow and ice, I'm certain thereare huge advantages in dry and muddyand sandy settings).

    I'm just now seeing that these fat tires slide across the slick snow like a toboggan and the skinny tires allow me to carve turns like an ice skate. How anyone can put squirrly handling and the constant requirement to remain perfectly upright at all times in the plus column is a bit puzzling to me. If you want to say that it is funner, I get that. But from a purely performance standpoint, don't try and tell me that it is superior.
    Last edited by ultraspontane; 12-04-2011 at 10:08 PM.

  46. #46
    Moon Child
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    148
    No comment per your request.

  47. #47
    will rant for food
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    3,836
    Don't think that was necessary Fresno...
    Disclaimer: I run Regular Cycles (as of 2016). As a profiteer of the bicycle industry, I am not to be taken very seriously.

  48. #48
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    Fresno why are you being so sensitive? Do you actually have anything to contribute other than throwing around meaningless insults?

    For the nate owners, how would you say they compare to a narrower winter tire in fresh unpacked powder? I'll also try the endo up front as Johnny settle suggested. I really want this bike to grip.

    Drew, I've ridden in a variety of temps. From about 17 degrees F, up to about 60. Been on around a dozen rides with it (I typically ride about 150 miles a week consistently, even through winter). And have noticed the 'saucer sled' effect whenever there is a decent amount of snow on the ground. At any tire pressure.
    Last edited by ultraspontane; 12-04-2011 at 10:53 PM.

  49. #49
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,236
    Quote Originally Posted by johnny settle View Post
    I felt the same way when I first got my Pug. The wash-out reminded me of the old Panaracer Dart tires. I almost instantly switched to an Endo. front and the problem was instantly MUCH better. ***I have not tried Nates or 45NRTH's ***but I don't feel (skinny) Larry's are a good snow tire-its not the bike.
    That is a good example of different setups for different riders'

    The Dart was the tire I NEVER had to worry about washing out. It just carved every corner in most conditions for me.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  50. #50
    Harmonius Wrench
    Reputation: Guitar Ted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,256
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    I'm just now seeing that these fat tires slide across the slick snow like a toboggan and the skinny tires allow me to carve turns like an ice skate. How anyone can put squirrly handling and the constant requirement to remain perfectly upright at all times in the plus column is a bit puzzling to me. If you want to say that it is funner, I get that. But from a purely performance standpoint, don't try and tell me that it is superior.
    Well, you have a very different situation where you live, because if you come to where I live and commute on snowy streets and try to "carve turns like an ice skate", you're going to get hurt. Badly.

    Just from this statement alone I would surmise that fat bikes are not for you, but I am just guessing.

    Hope ya figure it out in a way that benefits you.
    Riden' an Smilin'
    Guitar Ted

    Blog
    RidingGravel.com

  51. #51
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    113
    I think Ultraspontaine is right. Fatbikes weren't designed for city commuting. Probably a narrow studded tire is better than any Endomorph, Larry or Nate. Fatbikes are lots of fun, but I am not sure why there is such zealotry to claim they are the best tool in all situations.

  52. #52
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Beachcomber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    78
    If you have temps ranging from 17 to 60 degrees, I think the real problem you may be having is that you don't have a solid snowpack. You may have fresh snow but it still may be sitting over a slushy base that a narrower tire cuts through better. Or when it's 17 you may have layers of slick ice that needs studs to really grip.

    People love their fat bikes because they do work, if you come on the Fatbike forum and call them a gimmick, you're probably going to take some flak, just saying. But, you may be right that a narrow studded tire would work better more of the time for your conditions, they don't work great in everywhere.
    Last edited by Beachcomber; 12-04-2011 at 11:57 PM.

  53. #53
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    145
    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    [IMG]
    The Three Sisters! I want to ride that trail when I get my fatbike.

  54. #54
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    153
    Ultraspontaine, I agree that the Pugsly with the stock Larry and Endo tires can wander around a bit and as a result the bike doesn't have the most precise steering. I bought a Pug last year because I was tired of not being able to ride singletrack here in BC in the winter. The bike in it's stock form worked ok, but I still slid around a lot and had to walk up a lot of hills due to lack of traction.

    This year I'm running the kevlar Nate's front and back and they are an absolute game changer as far as traction goes. As soon as the wet weather came here, I've been riding my Pug with Nate's front and back, staying reasonably dry with full length fenders underneath me and I've got fantastic grip on all the wet roots and knarl the west coast is famous for. I've really not had to slow down my riding at all this winter.

    The Nate's really are a game-changer for technical singletrack riding in the mud and snow. The easiest way to describe it is this; you know how if you're riding singletrack and it's slippery conditions and you start to tighten up and squeeze the bars a little harder because you think you might wash out anytime which often makes you crash? If you ride with Nate's you never ever feel like that.

    Having said all this, I don't know why anyone would want to commute on a Pugsly. Before moving to BC, I lived in Edmonton AB, which has fairly constant snow like you describe on the roads, light and fluffy, and although there are a lot of Surly Pugs' on the roads in Edmonton, there was simply no faster way to commute than on a track bike with the narrowest, slickest tires you could find to cut through the snow and reach the road underneath.

  55. #55
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    145

    Upset

    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetness View Post
    Ultraspontaine, I agree that the Pugsly with the stock Larry and Endo tires can wander around a bit and as a result the bike doesn't have the most precise steering. I bought a Pug last year because I was tired of not being able to ride singletrack here in BC in the winter. The bike in it's stock form worked ok, but I still slid around a lot and had to walk up a lot of hills due to lack of traction.

    This year I'm running the kevlar Nate's front and back and they are an absolute game changer as far as traction goes. As soon as the wet weather came here, I've been riding my Pug with Nate's front and back, staying reasonably dry with full length fenders underneath me and I've got fantastic grip on all the wet roots and knarl the west coast is famous for. I've really not had to slow down my riding at all this winter.

    The Nate's really are a game-changer for technical singletrack riding in the mud and snow. The easiest way to describe it is this; you know how if you're riding singletrack and it's slippery conditions and you start to tighten up and squeeze the bars a little harder because you think you might wash out anytime which often makes you crash? If you ride with Nate's you never ever feel like that.

    Having said all this, I don't know why anyone would want to commute on a Pugsly. Before moving to BC, I lived in Edmonton AB, which has fairly constant snow like you describe on the roads, light and fluffy, and although there are a lot of Surly Pugs' on the roads in Edmonton, there was simply no faster way to commute than on a track bike with the narrowest, slickest tires you could find to cut through the snow and reach the road underneath.
    It all depends on your ride. The fat tires give you float, and if you need float then the fatties are what you want. My commute goes through a big urban park in Calgary where the trails aren't cleared, so I need the float. I also need studs for other parts of my ride, however, and I'll add my voice to those calling for a studded fat tire. And full fenders as well. We need those too.

  56. #56
    will rant for food
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    3,836
    Thanks for answering my temperature question. That's pretty warm. It really could just be that a fattie might not be for you. The only thing that gives me pause is the notion of leaning / carving a corner. I straight up can't do that, so our common snow quality might be different enough.

    EDIT - ****, noticed after the fact this was already covered.
    Disclaimer: I run Regular Cycles (as of 2016). As a profiteer of the bicycle industry, I am not to be taken very seriously.

  57. #57
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Velobike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    7,171
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    Whoa, some butthurt fatbikers in here.

    ...Those fat tires sure are cool to look at but so far they have been a letdown in the performance department (at least with snow and ice, I'm certain thereare huge advantages in dry and muddyand sandy settings).

    ...But from a purely performance standpoint, don't try and tell me that it is superior.
    1. The insult is unnecessary. This forum isn't a place for teenage type angst. We're trying to get to the bottom of your problem not justify our bikes. Almost everyone here is a very experienced cyclist in winter conditions so you may benefit from listening to them.

    2. I doubt anyone here is affected by the "cool" factor, but if it's why you bought the bike, maybe you made a mistake. The problem with snow also applies in mud - too many variables to say what works and what doesn't until you've tried it.

    3. I will tell you it is superior. I have a choice of a few bikes for winter riding and the fat tyred bike is way better than the others for most snow conditions. For example I sometimes ride my 29er which has studded ice tyres when conditions dictate, and I like to ride this skinny tyred bike too



    4. There are some conditions that are unsuitable even for a fatbike.

    5. If you don't accept that you have to learn a different technique to ride a fatbike, you'll never be happy with it.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
    Latitude: 57º36' Highlands, Scotland

  58. #58
    Frt Range, CO
    Reputation: pursuiter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    2,576
    This place is becoming another 29er forum, even the head shill is hanging around here pimping his supporter's stuff. Too bad, it was fun while it lasted!

  59. #59
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ecub's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    457
    I would have to think the washing out would be due to inexperience with the bike and tires. I don't have my fat bike in yet, but I would relate it to having a car with snow tires. I know if I take a turn slow, the car tires would grip easily. But once I take a turn too hard or too fast, then I would expect some slipping.
    Last edited by ecub; 12-05-2011 at 09:52 AM.
    - Ed

    2012 Trek Madone 6.7 SSL
    2013 Specialized Tricross Comp Disc
    2011 Trek Top Fuel 9.9 SSL
    2012 Salsa Mukluk 2

  60. #60
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    51
    sorry if I missed this, but where do you live?

    right now, in minnesota, we have snow that is handled much better by a crosscheck with studded tires (it's what I'm riding to work most days). it's single density, wet, sloppy and quickly turned into ice because of the conditions and time of year. once we have a heavy snowfall it will no longer handle well. the different densities of packed snow will result in it drunkenly zigzagging down the road as the front wheel meanders through the different layers of packed snow. my commute is 20+ miles roundtrip, so I'd prefer to do it on the faster crosscheck. however, last year I rode my snow bike about 80% of the time because it was more appropriate for the conditions created by consecutive heavy snowfalls. other years we haven't had as much snow and a studded tire bike has been my choice 80% of the time for commuting. I guess my point is this: both bikes are good at different things. it sounds like the thing you're trying to do right now would be better handled with a different bike. you can either embrace that and hope the conditions tip in your favor, get a second (third, n+1, whatever) bike, or sell your pugsley and hope that conditions don't turn against you. I doubt buying tires or making minor modifications to your setup will yield the level of satisfaction that you're seeking.

  61. #61
    Frt Range, CO
    Reputation: pursuiter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    2,576
    Quote Originally Posted by ecub View Post
    I would have to think the washing out would be due to inexperience with the bike and tires. I don't have my fat bike in yet,...
    LOL, when you finally receive your bike,come up to the Kettle this winter and enter the snow bike race. Once you ride the bike with "anger" you'll start seeing what some of us have experienced. It means you have to slow to a crawl on sharp corners, if the front wheel could hold, we could ride faster....

  62. #62
    mtbr member
    Reputation: vikb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    13,140
    Quote Originally Posted by lawfarm View Post
    I give you...

    BLUE STEEL


    That's Blue Ice!...I save Blue Steel for my Fixed Gear porn look...
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  63. #63
    mtbr member
    Reputation: vikb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    13,140
    Quote Originally Posted by BowHopper View Post
    The Three Sisters! I want to ride that trail when I get my fatbike.
    We had so much fun that day. A few inches of fresh snow on some hardpack below. Just enough traction to go fast and slide the rear end around turns...
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  64. #64
    It aint gonna ride itself
    Reputation: MauricioB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    585
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    gimmick...novelty...butthurt...confirmation bias
    Wow, this person is so kind and humble! I can certainly understand why y'all want to offer him or her the benefit of your experience and insight.


  65. #65
    mtbr member
    Reputation: vikb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    13,140
    Quote Originally Posted by pursuiter View Post
    This place is becoming another 29er forum, even the head shill is hanging around here pimping his supporter's stuff. Too bad, it was fun while it lasted!
    Huh?....
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  66. #66
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    592
    I have a 2x9 geared Mukluk and a Cross Check. The CC is setup for winter commuting with a single speed freewheel and studded schwalbe marathon winters. For commuting, I'll take the CC every time as my route takes me on paved roads. Conditions are often slushy, with black ice and "brown sugar" style crap snow that never seems to harden or pack down into a hard surface. That said, I wouldn't dream of taking the CC onto the packed out single track of our MTB trail system. Different tools for different schools.

  67. #67
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ecub's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    457
    Quote Originally Posted by pursuiter View Post
    LOL, when you finally receive your bike,come up to the Kettle this winter and enter the snow bike race. Once you ride the bike with "anger" you'll start seeing what some of us have experienced. It means you have to slow to a crawl on sharp corners, if the front wheel could hold, we could ride faster....
    Well, I already signed up for the Farmer's Bike race in Michigan on January. So I'm sure I'll be getting the experience
    - Ed

    2012 Trek Madone 6.7 SSL
    2013 Specialized Tricross Comp Disc
    2011 Trek Top Fuel 9.9 SSL
    2012 Salsa Mukluk 2

  68. #68
    Nemophilist
    Reputation: TrailMaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,873
    OK...

    $750. I wouldn't want to pay more for something that is defective. Let me know If I can help you out.

  69. #69
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Velobike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    7,171
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    ...My experience so far is bad slippage on angled terrain...
    Ok, I was out today. We've got 4-5" of fresh snow on a variety of surfaces from hardpack to low viscosity mud.

    I was watching out for this slippage, and lo and behold I experienced it. I was able to correct it each time but it was unpleasant. I didn't get this problem last winter on the same tyres (Larry). The difference between now and last year is that I am using narrow rims (40mm) to reduce weight for endurance races and the tyre is much more rounded as a result. There simply isn't enough tread on the ground for slippy conditions - it has been great otherwise.

    Tonight I am changing back to my 80mm rim wheels.

    I was accompanied by another rider with considerable winter riding experience. He was on his full suspension 29er* with 10 speed block, my bike is a single speed, so we were able to make some comparisons.

    Downhill: my bike ran freely and faster with no steering difficulty. His bike was slower and was all over the place.

    Uphill: I was able to overtake him easily on the fatbike and pick any line, he was struggling in the granny gear and weaving.

    We swapped bikes for a while and then I was the one having problems on the 29er. He had never ridden a fatbike before and was amazed at how he was able to go uphill through thick snow on a single speed.

    On snow over low viscosity mud we both had problems, him more than me, but maybe a Nate would have fixed it. Ditto on snow over polished ice.

    I'll add some pics of the conditions later.


    * Salsa Spearfish, brandnew, he owns a bike shop so can have anything he likes. He's also a stronger rider than me (many years younger).
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
    Latitude: 57º36' Highlands, Scotland

  70. #70
    It aint gonna ride itself
    Reputation: MauricioB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    585
    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Downhill: my bike ran freely and faster with no steering difficulty. His bike was slower and was all over the place.

    Uphill: I was able to overtake him easily on the fatbike and pick any line, he was struggling in the granny gear and weaving.
    Right, and this is what the OP doesn't appear to get. It isn't that fat bikes are some magic carpet that's automatically better when the snow hits the ground, but rather that they can hold a straight line in a variety of conditions where regular bikes sink in or wobble to a halt. A lot of the time, it's the quintessential difference between riding and walking.

    I'm not sure where the OP got this idea, but as I've said before, (and was essentially told that I was full of it) I do tend to agree that fat bikes do not do everything well. That's why my winter commute is mostly done on a Cross Check with studded tires.

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/mababo/412931932/" title="Woody snowride by Uncle Bicycle, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm1.staticflickr.com/159/412931932_80065fd0a3_m.jpg" width="240" height="240" alt="Woody snowride"></a>

    My suggestion to anyone who buys a fat bike for snow and is disappointed with the first couple of rides would be to take it out and use it in a variety of conditions over the course of a whole winter to figure out what it might do well in your area before selling it off cheap. There's a huge difference between the first couple of snows early on and the melted and refrozen firmed-up stuff you have a couple of weeks in. And remember what Big Wheel Boy said upthread—snow ain't dirt.

  71. #71
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetness View Post
    Ultraspontaine, I agree that the Pugsly with the stock Larry and Endo tires can wander around a bit and as a result the bike doesn't have the most precise steering. I bought a Pug last year because I was tired of not being able to ride singletrack here in BC in the winter. The bike in it's stock form worked ok, but I still slid around a lot and had to walk up a lot of hills due to lack of traction.

    This year I'm running the kevlar Nate's front and back and they are an absolute game changer as far as traction goes. As soon as the wet weather came here, I've been riding my Pug with Nate's front and back, staying reasonably dry with full length fenders underneath me and I've got fantastic grip on all the wet roots and knarl the west coast is famous for. I've really not had to slow down my riding at all this winter.

    The Nate's really are a game-changer for technical singletrack riding in the mud and snow. The easiest way to describe it is this; you know how if you're riding singletrack and it's slippery conditions and you start to tighten up and squeeze the bars a little harder because you think you might wash out anytime which often makes you crash? If you ride with Nate's you never ever feel like that.

    Having said all this, I don't know why anyone would want to commute on a Pugsly. Before moving to BC, I lived in Edmonton AB, which has fairly constant snow like you describe on the roads, light and fluffy, and although there are a lot of Surly Pugs' on the roads in Edmonton, there was simply no faster way to commute than on a track bike with the narrowest, slickest tires you could find to cut through the snow and reach the road underneath.

    Thanks for the insight. I've read a few different accounts around the web stating the same. That the Larry's just slip'n slide while the nates actually improve traction.

    One thing I don't mind about the pug is the weight, and I think the fat tires really help out with urban commuting as they allow me to ride up and off of curbs and stairs with ease.It's jst it's performance with handlig the fresh, dry powder of Colorado that I am dissapoited with. If the nate's can significantly improve traction, I'll be a happy camper.

  72. #72
    Bad cat!
    Reputation: montana_ben's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    357
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetness View Post
    Ultraspontaine, I agree that the Pugsly with the stock Larry and Endo tires can wander around a bit and as a result the bike doesn't have the most precise steering. I bought a Pug last year because I was tired of not being able to ride singletrack here in BC in the winter. The bike in it's stock form worked ok, but I still slid around a lot and had to walk up a lot of hills due to lack of traction.

    This year I'm running the kevlar Nate's front and back and they are an absolute game changer as far as traction goes. As soon as the wet weather came here, I've been riding my Pug with Nate's front and back, staying reasonably dry with full length fenders underneath me and I've got fantastic grip on all the wet roots and knarl the west coast is famous for. I've really not had to slow down my riding at all this winter.

    The Nate's really are a game-changer for technical singletrack riding in the mud and snow. The easiest way to describe it is this; you know how if you're riding singletrack and it's slippery conditions and you start to tighten up and squeeze the bars a little harder because you think you might wash out anytime which often makes you crash? If you ride with Nate's you never ever feel like that.
    Same Larry/Endo setup on my Muk 2, and after my first snow ride I did a homebrew stud job, which made a huge improvement in most conditions (in climbing traction for the endo especially, maybe less so for Larry's wash/wander tendencies). I don't commute, however--got my bike to be able to ride (mostly) singletrack through the winter. Still, maybe investigate tires as originally mentioned before ditching the fatbike idea? Have some Nates on the way, myself...hoping for the same epiphany Sweetness describes!

  73. #73
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    859
    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post

    2. I doubt anyone here is affected by the "cool" factor, but if it's why you bought the bike, maybe you made a mistake. The problem with snow also applies in mud - too many variables to say what works and what doesn't until you've tried it.
    Velobike,

    I have to vehemently and strongly disagree with you.

    I am heavily influenced by the cool factor. Way heavily. Waaaaay way heavily.

    Carry on.

    (Note--to the extent a disclaimer is required, please note the above comments were intended to be sarcastic. Somewhat.)

  74. #74
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,631
    More often than not, around here (Central Washington) I want the floatation of the fatties (whichever model) and the grip of studs at the same time. Lots of times I've got fresh snow on the way in and slick stuff on the way home (commuting). And, (I hate to repeat myself) on recreational winter (and Spring &Fall) riding, especially in the mountains, I encounter dirt, snow, ice, slush & etc. Sometimes the South facing slope is melted off and the N. facing slope is frozen over. I just want to RIDE! And it's not (obviously) feasable to carry an extra bike... or extra tires with you. Not to mention that we often don't know what we're going to get into 'till we get into it. With properly possitioned studs I can travel through all of it... with confidence, and speed if I want. w/o studs I'm seriously slowed down or even "shut down" on the icy sections. Especially climbing!! And the current "sheet metal studs" I'm running are a real bummer on paved surfaces... which means I'm locked into driving to the start point-Bummer! The option of a reasonably priced, carbide studded tire (or tire w/ stud wells & opt. stud kit) is the missing link for us in our climate!

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZN0DXeW_t1k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  75. #75
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Velobike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    7,171
    Quote Originally Posted by lawfarm View Post
    Velobike,
    I have to vehemently and strongly disagree with you.

    I am heavily influenced by the cool factor. Way heavily. Waaaaay way heavily...
    Actually I have to agree with you. I did a superman into a snow bank last year and I felt ultra cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by ward View Post
    ...The option of a reasonably priced, carbide studded tire is the missing link...
    Even the edges studded would be good enough.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
    Latitude: 57º36' Highlands, Scotland

  76. #76
    Frt Range, CO
    Reputation: pursuiter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    2,576
    I agree, studded tires make sense in many conditions, esp commuting. Right now I'd never commute on my Pugs, too slow in the summer, no studs for winter riding. Here in the Chicago area our winter weather hovers around near freezing, surprise ice patches are the norm. I have a studded 700c commuter (Kenda Klondikes) and for icy trails my 29er goes with a rigid fork and Nokians. I don't want to break any bones, icy falls seem to be one of the worst falls.

  77. #77
    conjoinicorned
    Reputation: ferday's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,525
    i've been loving my pugs on the snow, and i'm truly fascinated with how snow conditions change over the course of a ride (way more noticeable then XC or downhill skiing). also interesting how even a single set of footprints on the trail can mean the difference between riding and walking.

    i can't ride everything, but that's ok i can ride a lot that i couldn't on another bike, which has opened up a whole new season for me...but i suspect it'll take a while to figure out how/where it can be ridden as it depends so much on conditions.

    Last edited by ferday; 12-05-2011 at 04:43 PM.
    what would rainbow unicorn do?

  78. #78
    mtbr member
    Reputation: lancelot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    996
    One thing I don't mind about the pug is the weight, and I think the fat tires really help out with urban commuting as they allow me to ride up and off of curbs and stairs with ease.It's jst it's performance with handlig the fresh, dry powder of Colorado that I am dissapoited with. If the nate's can significantly improve traction, I'll be a happy camper.[/QUOTE]

    I noticed your in Denver. Take it over to City Park golf course and cruise it around. It's a public course so they don't mind. It's a good place to get the feel of riding it in snow before taking it into the foothills. Also don't expect to climb much in the front range when the trails are covered in snow. Most of the trails are too steep and you'll be slipping out like crazy. It's always fun to try though. I do suggest riding it year round in all conditions though as they are fun to ride. If I was commuting around Denver on a snow day I think a studded CX bike would be your best bet though.
    The LPG

  79. #79
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    87
    I rode my cx bike with studs for awhile, then built a Mukluk with larry front and endo rear, switched to larry front and back. A friend rode the Nate for awhile, my observations.

    The studs worked great on small amounts of fresh snow and glare ice, but walked on paths were brutal on me and bike. Endo is downright scary on wet pavement FYI. The single track I ride, no comparison, Mukluk is fantastic. There is frequently no hard base and flotation is what I need. Getting the correct PSI in the front tire is important. I usually go out over pumped and let some out a little at a time until it hooks up. You will know when you get it right.

    I wouldn't call fat tires a gimmick, more of a niche...

  80. #80
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    87
    Oh and the Nate is SLOW, but seems to hook up a little better.

  81. #81
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    Loaded up the car today with the pug and and a bike with 29x1.75" tires to ride on the same snow covered singletrack for a comparison. Spent hours in the saddle today.

    Pugsley advantages:
    A smoother ride, much less disruption from little bits of ice, rocks, ruts, ect.
    Somewhat better on on hard pack, footprints, and prexisiting tire tracks.

    Pugsley disadvantages:
    Very poor traction in deep-ish, undisturbed powder.
    Very poor traction on ice (no studs).
    Lots of resistance while pushing through deep snow compared to the narrow tire.
    Very bad climbing performance in unpacked powder compared to the narrow tire.

    So as it stands with the Larry/endo combination, not the best choice for a snow bike. The ride quality is amazing. Very smooth and pleasant. However, the traction is lousy. Whenever you have to climb in deep powder, fahgettaboutit. The tires just don't get much bite in deep, undisturbed snow. I was able to start from a dead stop and ride uphill through very deep powder without issue with the narrower tire, whereas the pug would get stuck anthe rear endo would spin in place, no matter how you sat on the bike. This becomes a real issue especially when you want to venture off the trail, into non packed snow (the very reason I bought the bike).

    But the ride quality really is something to write home about. If I could have the float and smooth ride of the pug, with the superior bite and traction of the narrower winter tire, it would be snow biking nirvana. The course of action from here will be to buy one nate. I'll see if it gets me better climbing on the rear, and better lateral traction on the front. Hopefully I'll be able to get the best of both worlds with the nate.

  82. #82
    mtbr member
    Reputation: deleteyourselph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    125
    I would definitely try the nate. It seems like the general consensus on numerous threads. You can't expect a tire like an endo to grip like a studded tire, it's just not going to happen. It also seems to me that I've heard many people talk about drifting into their turns, not carving. Can't say for sure personally though as I'm still waiting on my Pugsley to have a stem and headset
    "You don't cross my ***** line, I don't cross your ***** line".
    - James Lahey Sunnyvale Trailer Park Supervisor

  83. #83
    My cup runneth over
    Reputation: rmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    2,357
    I had two rides over the last week end in Denver. The first was in falling and already deep (`9”) snow in Bear Creek Lake Park (Saturday). The flats and downhills were awesome but I suffered the same slippage as the Op on off-camber sections and no traction on climbing (as per the Op). The next day I rode the Green Mountain loop which had seen quite a lot of hiker traffic. Anywhere even partially stomped down was a blast and I made the climb up to the top with just a single stop. On the downhills I was finding I could sweep into the drifts off to the side of the trail/dirt road and felt a little like snow boarding as the bike floated through the drifts – awesome. I have ridden the same trails in similar (but less deep snow <5”) conditions for several years on my regular bike and the grip in the (less deep) fluff is better. The Fat is superior on any level of hiker packed trails (the regular bike just breaks through and post holes). The trail has to be REALLY packed down to be fun on the regular bike.

    For the heavy fluff days I also would want a tire with a lot more bite but not sure I want to be changing out the tires with any kind of regularity. Larrys front and (reversed on) rear.
    On ice both suck (no studs).

    Pics attached of the GM ride (heavily packed area).

    The place where the Fat is fatabulous is on snow banks that have melted and frozen on top (you get this a lot on the north side of GM). Stepping on the snow forces a post hole but the float and traction of the Fat are unbeatable and with just the Larrys I can climb outrageously (for me) steep stuff.

    Not sure if you can get around the disappointment but if possible don’t think of your Fat as just a snow bike. I personally find mine a better sand and loose trail bike (than pure snow bike). The traction in these conditions are LOL fun.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Disappointed with my Pugsleys performance in the snow-img_0260%5B1%5D.jpg  

    Disappointed with my Pugsleys performance in the snow-img_0261%5B1%5D.jpg  


  84. #84
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    473
    Man, reading all that was a huge waste of time.

    This was obviously a bad purchase on your part.

  85. #85
    aka bOb
    Reputation: bdundee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    8,679
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post

    Pugsley disadvantages:
    Very poor traction in deep-ish, undisturbed powder.
    Very poor traction on ice (no studs).
    Lots of resistance while pushing through deep snow compared to the narrow tire.
    Very bad climbing performance in unpacked powder compared to the narrow tire.
    That's pretty much what people have been saying, they are made for float. Packed, crust or semi packed trails.

  86. #86
    aka bOb
    Reputation: bdundee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    8,679
    You could always just sell it.........

    Or just dress up like a moose and use it for parades
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Disappointed with my Pugsleys performance in the snow-moose2.jpg  


  87. #87
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Toni Lund's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    125
    <URL>
    <iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/_OtPoDOkgJo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
    <URL/>
    "Cycling is not the whole life, it's much more."
    www.tonilund.fi - Facebook - Twitter - Google+

  88. #88
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    ^ Yes the pug can ride over packed snow, I get that.

    What the endos and larrys can't do is get anywhere in powder. I don't want my snow rides to be on rails. I want to get off trail and actually have some degree of climbing performance in virgin powder.

    This write up has compelled me to order a nate: Dear Nate, I love you. | FAT-BIKE.COM

    His testament of the nate's alleged climbing ability has me hopeful. I'll try and get one on order tomorrow.

    The million dollar question is if the lack of traction in powder is due to poor tread design of the Larry and endo, or if a fat tire just isn't practical in powder. I'm really hoping that it's the former.
    Last edited by ultraspontane; 12-06-2011 at 02:05 AM.

  89. #89
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Velobike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    7,171
    Yup, Toni's post sums it up.

    But let's all stop jumping on the OP. Sounds like he has got over his initial upset and is moving on to trying different tyres to get more traction. We may learn something from his quest for the ultimate grip.

    As I was riding yesterday, I noticed a few things I hadn't given much thought to until this little controversy started.

    Corners - I square them off rather than bank the bike. Very much like I used to do riding a large powerful motorbike on loose dirt. Slow in, pick a line, and fast out. On hard dirt I love the feel of banking the bike but actually it is slower IMO and you are limited in line choice. (Obviously if it's a known track, you have all this worked out beforehand)

    My riding mate had difficulty a few times on my bike because he was staying in the saddle (he's used to full suspension) whereas I move my weight around a lot more.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
    Latitude: 57º36' Highlands, Scotland

  90. #90
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,243
    Unless the virgin powder is not very deep I don't think Nate will help too much. Totally off trail through the untracked wilderness is not going to happen unless you live where the total snow depth is very limited. You have already seen how resistance to forward motion goes way up and traction goes down as the snow gets deep. If the snow gets deep enough skis or snowshoes are where it's at, bikes whether skinny or fat tired won't get through.
    Latitude 61

  91. #91
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Velobike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    7,171
    Yup, there are times even the fattest tyres don't work



    (Pic from singletrack forum)
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
    Latitude: 57º36' Highlands, Scotland

  92. #92
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    Unless the virgin powder is not very deep I don't think Nate will help too much. Totally off trail through the untracked wilderness is not going to happen unless you live where the total snow depth is very limited. You have already seen how resistance to forward motion goes way up and traction goes down as the snow gets deep. If the snow gets deep enough skis or snowshoes are where it's at, bikes whether skinny or fat tired won't get through.
    Well, I'm hoping this isn't the case, but it very well may be.

    From the write up I posted a link to earlier:

    "My biggest thrill and what I was most impressed about was its ability to dig deep and hook up off-trail, in untouched powder, where an Endomorph or Larry is just too slick to bite."

    So I'm thinking it's worth a shot. Also, I was able to ride through deep powder that stopped the pug in its tracks with a narrowe mtb tire.

  93. #93
    All fat, all the time.
    Reputation: Shark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    8,137
    Sounds like you want a full suspension with studded tires or maybe a snow mobile.

  94. #94
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    473
    I'm guessing that statement was written by an experienced fat biker with realistic expectations (that a bike cannot be perfect for every condition... especially when riding something as variable as snow).

    I'm also guessing you will be disappointed by the Nate.

  95. #95
    Sup
    Reputation: Burnt-Orange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,696
    note to self
    complaining about something where everyone likes it will not get you any rep power
    ...page 4
    Stand by for News
    Sj
    I am slow therefore I am

  96. #96
    Hybrid Leftys aren't real Moderator
    Reputation: MendonCycleSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    15,944
    Quote Originally Posted by pursuiter View Post
    for icy trails my 29er goes with a rigid fork and Nokians.
    Just curious. You say you remove a suspension and go rigid for the winter? Is this to keep road salt out of your expensive investment?

    Reason I ask is, I run my FS studded for those conditions, as the choppy, chunky, foot printed chewed up surface made hard by ice is so much more well mannered with some suspension underneath me....

    But as we all know, everyones situation is different, so I'm not saying your wrong in doing so
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

    - FrostyStruthers



    www.mendoncyclesmith.com

  97. #97
    Frt Range, CO
    Reputation: pursuiter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    2,576
    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Just curious. You say you remove a suspension and go rigid for the winter? Is this to keep road salt out of your expensive investment?
    LOL, It's a 5 year old Tora Solo Air. I find it turns to a rigid fork once the temp drops below 20*F. I do wonder about the salt effect, if the fork had suspension in the cold I might keep it on but since it goes stiff, why not change? I have an extra fork crown and brake caliper mounted on a Chromoto, it only takes a few minutes to swap out. I used to have a hardtail and a rigid 29er, sold the rigid and bought a extra fork assembly, saves space and minimizes redundant bikes (and makes room for a Pugs).

    I keep wondering if I'll ever want a FS and as of now it looks like the answer is no, just don't have any interest in that direction. I'm an old USCF roadie from the late 70's, I pick my line like a CX'er, no hucking for me. That's what's driving my love for the Pugs.

  98. #98
    Nemophilist
    Reputation: TrailMaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,873
    Quote Originally Posted by FTMN View Post
    I'm guessing that statement was written by an experienced fat biker with realistic expectations (that a bike cannot be perfect for every condition... especially when riding something as variable as snow).

    I'm also guessing you will be disappointed by the Nate.
    I'm knowing you're right;

    Bottom line; bikes don't go good in snow. Do you stop trying? Not me, or many others. You just have to change your frame of mind. You "can't climb" and you "can't turn," you just manage the best you can using different techniques. I would not expect ANY bike - fat included - to go through over 5" of snow that well under all circumstances. A skinny bike is pretty much done after 4-5. If you ride walking trails, you get beat to shite by the pock marks, so it's little fun. A Fatty would make this a lot better, but not so much in deep snow.

    I think your expectations were quite a bit outsized. What you saw in people's posts as raw performance was probably more like people having fun trying something new and different in specific conditions that were favorable.

    I don't even HAVE a fat bike (I'm studying), but I've ridden in the snow since I was a kid on a balloon tired bomber bike (still have it!). When I do get a Fatty it will have Nates, for sure. They're going to help in the snow, but not THAT much.

    Like my race(car) helmet says in big letters: Front - "STFU MOTORSPORTS" Rear - "JUST DRIVE"

  99. #99
    Hybrid Leftys aren't real Moderator
    Reputation: MendonCycleSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    15,944
    Quote Originally Posted by pursuiter View Post
    LOL, It's a 5 year old Tora Solo Air..
    Gotcha, well FWIW, a rebuild with fresh lube *might* help with that, old lube is stiff already, then the cold just adds to that.

    As for FS, it's totally your preference of course, but hucking? I don't do no stinkin' hucking in the snow. It just allows me to keep my butt planted and haul ash over the rough.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

    - FrostyStruthers



    www.mendoncyclesmith.com

  100. #100
    Rednose/Greenback
    Reputation: apbtlvr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    322
    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Yup, Toni's post sums it up.

    But let's all stop jumping on the OP. Sounds like he has got over his initial upset and is moving on to trying different tyres to get more traction. We may learn something from his quest for the ultimate grip.

    As I was riding yesterday, I noticed a few things I hadn't given much thought to until this little controversy started.

    Corners - I square them off rather than bank the bike. Very much like I used to do riding a large powerful motorbike on loose dirt. Slow in, pick a line, and fast out. On hard dirt I love the feel of banking the bike but actually it is slower IMO and you are limited in line choice. (Obviously if it's a known track, you have all this worked out beforehand)

    My riding mate had difficulty a few times on my bike because he was staying in the saddle (he's used to full suspension) whereas I move my weight around a lot more.

    Most true...
    38° 54' -77° 15

  101. #101
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    145
    Quote Originally Posted by TrailMaker View Post
    I'm knowing you're right;

    Bottom line; bikes don't go good in snow. Do you stop trying? Not me, or many others. You just have to change your frame of mind. You "can't climb" and you "can't turn," you just manage the best you can using different techniques. I would not expect ANY bike - fat included - to go through over 5" of snow that well under all circumstances. A skinny bike is pretty much done after 4-5. If you ride walking trails, you get beat to shite by the pock marks, so it's little fun. A Fatty would make this a lot better, but not so much in deep snow.

    I think your expectations were quite a bit outsized. What you saw in people's posts as raw performance was probably more like people having fun trying something new and different in specific conditions that were favorable.

    I don't even HAVE a fat bike (I'm studying), but I've ridden in the snow since I was a kid on a balloon tired bomber bike (still have it!). When I do get a Fatty it will have Nates, for sure. They're going to help in the snow, but not THAT much.

    Like my race(car) helmet says in big letters: Front - "STFU MOTORSPORTS" Rear - "JUST DRIVE"
    Exactly. No matter what the tires or the bike, riding on snow isn’t like riding on dirt. You just need to remember the cardinal rule:

    Snow ride? Take it easy.
    Slow Ride- Foghat (Full Version) - YouTube

  102. #102
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,631
    "Can't climb in snow" huh... with studs they can! Obviously going to have issues w/ 2 feet of pow, but in allot of other situations it is possible. This is 3-4 inches of fresh on top of slippery ice... very slippery! the only other folks I passed had "Yaktracks" on they're boots. On the climb out of the canyon, I made all but one switch back. If I didn't have to re-set the cam, I would have never put a foot down aside from that one SB. Again, I'm using #6 3/8" sheet metal screws... cost a whole $12.00 or so and a couple hrs. on the drill press &etc. And they're removable and replaceable ... Remember folks, "can't" never could do anything... "can" & even "maybe I can" looks for ways to get it done! I'm not to worried about riding in more than a foot of pow anyway... 'cause there's an "app" for that... they're called skis!

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QSRxbiH9wZA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    and on packed snow. Again w/ studs, mainly for the climb but also for the "parking lot" ice... and for riding over to the bar after...

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/YvU7PamzY-4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  103. #103
    conjoinicorned
    Reputation: ferday's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,525
    cool video ward!
    what would rainbow unicorn do?

  104. #104
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,236
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    Well, I'm hoping this isn't the case, but it very well may be.

    From the write up I posted a link to earlier:

    "My biggest thrill and what I was most impressed about was its ability to dig deep and hook up off-trail, in untouched powder, where an Endomorph or Larry is just too slick to bite."

    So I'm thinking it's worth a shot. Also, I was able to ride through deep powder that stopped the pug in its tracks with a narrowe mtb tire.
    Exactly how deep was this "deep" powder?
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  105. #105
    mtbr member
    Reputation: bprsnt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    293
    [QUOTE=ward;8800768]"Can't climb in snow" huh... with studs they can! Obviously going to have issues w/ 2 feet of pow, but in allot of other situations it is possible.

    Great vids!

    Kinda blows the hype theory out of the water

  106. #106
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jaredbe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    258
    I fear this kind of post will happen more in the future as a newer generation of people start to fatbike. They likely come to the sport hearing current owners who are amazed and excited about how functional and fun a fat bike is without hearing the limitations like they are not snow shoes or that you need to have the right air pressure for your ride.
    laotzucycles.blogspot.com

  107. #107
    Hybrid Leftys aren't real Moderator
    Reputation: MendonCycleSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    15,944
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaredbe View Post
    I fear this kind of post will happen more in the future as a newer generation of people start to fatbike. They likely come to the sport hearing current owners who are amazed and excited about how functional and fun a fat bike is without hearing the limitations like they are not snow shoes or that you need to have the right air pressure for your ride.
    Agreed, and all the more reason for a fatty newb to work with a well informed shop as opposed to just grabbing one on line and having it shipped to the house. Not that it's a bad thing to do overall, but as we're seeing here, without a lot of reading, listening, and input, one can easily become pretty discouraged, and then, blame the bike platform, rather than set up, riding style, tire selection/pressure, etc.

    A shop can help deal with a lot of these questions, help with set up, help the customer develop real world expectations, inform them of how certain local conditions make for the best experience etc etc etc.

    As well as all the normal BS a good shop does.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

    - FrostyStruthers



    www.mendoncyclesmith.com

  108. #108
    Nemophilist
    Reputation: TrailMaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,873
    Quote Originally Posted by ward View Post
    "Can't climb in snow" huh... with studs they can!
    Don't Forget Your Mad Skilz!

    Nice stuff. I liked the levitating 360 pano shot on the bridge best. I've never seen anyone levitate a Fatty before. We do it all the time on our skinny wheeled bikes around here, but... Oh... For the record, I used quotation marks around my "Cant's".


  109. #109
    Nemophilist
    Reputation: TrailMaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,873
    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    As well as all the normal BS a good shop does.
    Yes;

    You saved it in the last line. A GOOD shop.

  110. #110
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ecub's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    457
    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Agreed, and all the more reason for a fatty newb to work with a well informed shop as opposed to just grabbing one on line and having it shipped to the house. Not that it's a bad thing to do overall, but as we're seeing here, without a lot of reading, listening, and input, one can easily become pretty discouraged, and then, blame the bike platform, rather than set up, riding style, tire selection/pressure, etc.

    A shop can help deal with a lot of these questions, help with set up, help the customer develop real world expectations, inform them of how certain local conditions make for the best experience etc etc etc.

    As well as all the normal BS a good shop does.
    I don't know about that. All the LBSs I've been to have said the same thing, fat bikes are great in the snow. Even most of the threads here state the same thing. So I would have to understand where the OP is getting at on feeling the way that he does. Unfortunately, his expetations were probably set pretty high. Sure, wider is better, but there are limitations on the equipment and the riders skills/experience. Put 2 bikers on the same exact bike on the same snow conditions, except 1 biker has more fat bike/snow experience than the other, then I'm sure we all know that the experienced biker would do better in those conditions.


    BTW, great vid Ward.
    - Ed

    2012 Trek Madone 6.7 SSL
    2013 Specialized Tricross Comp Disc
    2011 Trek Top Fuel 9.9 SSL
    2012 Salsa Mukluk 2

  111. #111
    Hybrid Leftys aren't real Moderator
    Reputation: MendonCycleSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    15,944
    Quote Originally Posted by TrailMaker View Post
    Yes;

    You saved it in the last line. A GOOD shop.
    Yep, far too many stump shops around. Gotta be a good one to even bother walking in the door.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

    - FrostyStruthers



    www.mendoncyclesmith.com

  112. #112
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Exactly how deep was this "deep" powder?
    Around eight inches. With temps around 15 degrees F. The endo would spin out, while you could stand up and crank hard on the narrower tire with much reduced spinning. The pug essentially lost any potential for forward motion, while the narrower tire was still able to drive through without too much trouble. It has to be due to the high resistance while pushing forward combined with the poor traction of the endo.

    I know that even the nate probably won't match the performance of the narrower tires in deeper snow, but if it just gets me most of the way there, that will be sufficient, because I really appreciate the ride quality of the pug.

    Quote Originally Posted by SlowerJoe View Post
    note to self
    complaining about something where everyone likes it will not get you any rep power
    ...page 4
    Stand by for News
    Sj
    If there's one thing I live for, it's rep power.

  113. #113
    Hybrid Leftys aren't real Moderator
    Reputation: MendonCycleSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    15,944
    Quote Originally Posted by ecub View Post
    I don't know about that. All the LBSs I've been to have said the same thing, fat bikes are great in the snow. Put 2 bikers on the same exact bike on the same snow conditions, except 1 biker has more fat bike/snow experience than the other, then I'm sure we all know that the experienced biker would do better in those conditions..
    This is where the "good shop" rubber hits the road. The same one that says they are great in the snow, probably says that the smooth tired bike they stock is great on the road, or the knobby tired one, great on the trail.

    The good shop asks more of the customer. How do they ride, where, fast, slow, what are they looking for? Have they tried X to help with the issue they stopped in about, etc etc etc.

    Any time I sell a fat bike, it's a couple hours. Lots of discussion, set up, technique, etc. That's what I'm talking about.

    Not "yep, it's great in the snow, that size is perfect, thanks for the business...."

    Face it, I know I don't want you coming back to me with a laundry list like the OP had, so I make darn sure you have all you need to go have a great time. About the only bike I'll sell in 20 minutes is a basic hybrid, to a newbie, and yes, they got a helmet too.

    As for two bikers, indeed. I suggested it, somewhat cheekily, but that stands as a solid idea for proof of concept. One of the biggest reasons I've sold as many Pugs as I have this year, is because I have one, ride it any time the conditions suggest, and all the skinny tired folks with me, get really tired of not seeing me struggle like they do.

    Now and then though, I pick the wrong night, and their studs hand me my butt, and they get a good laugh, so they know that even a fatty has its limitations, yet still they buy.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

    - FrostyStruthers



    www.mendoncyclesmith.com

  114. #114
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    ^ Good points.

    But I'd say that there is helluva lot more undisturbed virgin snow out there than hiker packed, snowmobile tracks, ect. It seems a bit silly to me that bikes that many people (albeit incorrectly) label as snow bikes have a disadvantage compared to a standard winter mtb tire in 98% percent of the snow that is on the ground (you know, the untouched kind). And that the marketed ride anywhere bike is hobbled when you want to get off trail onto the powder.

  115. #115
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,243
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    ^ Good points.

    But I'd say that there is helluva lot more undisturbed virgin snow out there than hiker packed, snowmobile tracks, ect. It seems a bit silly to me that bikes that many people (albeit incorrectly) label as snow bikes have a disadvantage compared to a standard winter mtb tire in 98% percent of the snow that is on the ground (you know, the untouched kind). And that the marketed ride anywhere bike is hobbled when you want to get off trail onto the powder.
    Do you think a narrow tired bike can travel in 98% of the snow that is on the ground? No bike can go very far if it gets much deeper than 8" to 10". Most places that get snow get lots more than that so no bike can go. Any winter bike has areas it can go and areas it can't. For most of us on here the fat bikes go more places better than the skinny ones. If that is not the case for you thats OK. Ride what works for you.
    Latitude 61

  116. #116
    That Unicycle Guy
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    354
    I can see where the OP is coming from. If he was riding on a smooth surface with deep soft slippery snow cover there is no doubt in my mind that a aggressive skinny tire would have worked better. move off the road onto trails in the same conditions (or almost any snow conditions) and the fatty will let you go places that no other tire will.

    I built up my first truly fat wheel last weekend (Larry on 80mm GFS) and took my unicycle up into some snowy Colorado mountains. If I didn't already have snow riding experience on other setups I might have been a bit disappointed. There was 4 inches of new snow over a rocky trail that I was unfamiliar with.

    I definitely had some traction issues. Going up whenever the trail became anything close to "steep" I would spin out and have to walk until it flattened out a bit, that was a little discouraging. Going down I had some scary moments and spent nearly half the time in a semi-controlled skid keeping my speed in check and trying t stay on the trail.

    I have no doubt that I would have had better traction with a skinny wheel and mud tire to cut through the wet snow but then I would have been thrown off every time I hit something that was hidden under the white stuff. For me it was a tradeoff between traction and a more controllable predictable ride that just ate up the terrain. I often had no idea I ran over a rock or small log until I looked back at it on my track.

    If I were to do that kind of riding more often I would buy a Nate but I am mostly going to be using the wheel in Saskatchewan on snowmobile tracks where Larry should have more than enough bite.

  117. #117
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    I said that it has an advantage in 98% of the snow (the untouched kind) when there is a good dumping out. Not that it could ride all of those places. Eight inches of powder isn't really a rare occurance around here. I'm kinda thinking that I'd rather be beat to **** and riding, than comfortable and walking.

    Gentleman above me echoes my sentiments about poor traction. As well as the great ride quality. Hopefully the nate will be the solution.

    I'm headed off to the lbs to place an order for the nate. Hopefully their distrubutor still has some in stock. If not, I'll try amazon.

  118. #118
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Velobike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    7,171
    Out today on fresh virgin snow.

    If you look at the pic you can see that my pedals were hitting the snow each revolution. The bike is a singlespeed and if the snow was deeper than this, I would not have been able to pedal - this was hard enough. With gears I wouldn't expect any real problem at this depth.



    A couple of times I could see where people had tried to join the trail on ordinary bikes. Their tracks were zig-zagging all over the place and there was plenty evidence of falls.

    Yesterday I was out with a rider on a 29er. Here he is whipping up a hill on fresh snow on my SS (32/22). He couldn't get up it on his 29er even in the granny ring.

    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
    Latitude: 57º36' Highlands, Scotland

  119. #119
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    Ordered the Nate. Should be here by Thursday the 15th. Will post an update once I've had a chance to to take it out on some fresh powder. In addition, may install a rear rack to carry gear rather than carrying it in a bag to weight the rear tire for climbs.

  120. #120
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    243
    Ultraspontane I hope the nates work out for you & if ya have the coin i would get two,it should help up front too.I think this post started out with people trying to give you good info on fatbiking and it got to be a little bit of a p!$$ing match & thats too bad the fatbike forum isn`t that way.I along with I think most other riders have had good luck riding in & on the snow and don`t think its a gimmick, but the biikes do have their limits (even with nates) I commute too but never in snow(PA uses way too much salt on the roads) so I can`t say much on that one.I`am not sure if you watch Wards videos or the others on the video thread, but there`s lots on there of people riding their fatty in the snow having tons of fun I`am sure it will work out for ya . peace & good luck KP

  121. #121
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    ^ Yep, if the nate allows for climbing on the rear, I'll most definitely be buying another one for the front. 90 dollars for the 'cheap' version.

  122. #122
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,236
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post


    Around eight inches. With temps around 15 degrees F. The endo would spin out, while you could stand up and crank hard on the narrower tire with much reduced spinning. The pug essentially lost any potential for forward motion, while the narrower tire was still able to drive through without too much trouble. It has to be due to the high resistance while pushing forward combined with the poor traction of the endo.

    I know that even the nate probably won't match the performance of the narrower tires in deeper snow, but if it just gets me most of the way there, that will be sufficient, because I really appreciate the ride quality of the pug.



    If there's one thing I live for, it's rep power.
    With 8" of powder over a hard base I would use 35mm tires, too. It is not really packable and a narrow tire can cut through

    If that was 8" of wet snow and/or an inconsistent base, go wide.

    In any case, when snow compacts under your tire, you are basically riding an a "skinny" the width of your tire. Very easy to fall off that packed column of snow into the soft stuff.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  123. #123
    mtbr member
    Reputation: bprsnt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    293
    I have to hand it to you Ultraspontane you sure don't let the razzing get to you!
    You started a great thread. (started off a little rough)
    Lots of great input from a variety of fat bikers.

    That's what it is all about

  124. #124
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Velobike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    7,171
    Ultraspontane stirred the pot, and it shows that there's lot of stuff that we take for granted that a new rider has to find out for himself.

    Maybe we should have a sticky thread for what a newbie can expect from his fatbike.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
    Latitude: 57º36' Highlands, Scotland

  125. #125
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    40
    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Ultraspontane stirred the pot, and it shows that there's lot of stuff that we take for granted that a new rider has to find out for himself.

    Maybe we should have a sticky thread for what a newbie can expect from his fatbike.
    +1

    Being a newbie to fat bikes I could benefit from that.

  126. #126
    Nemophilist
    Reputation: TrailMaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,873
    I agree;

    Looking at Ward's vids, if you are familiar with the parameters under which he is operating, it is clear you are looking at a skilled rider. Kind of one of those "don't try this at home" moments where the reality is that it is far from as easy as he makes it look. I'd wager that most Fatbike owners are quizzical, analytical, methodical, and adventurous. The OP got off to a bit of an emotional start, emotion not generally being helpful in solving problems or making friends, but has fairly well chanelled that emotion into a more determined and useful end. I don't think he meant to provoke anyone, but his travails have certainly provoked some good discussion, and left a solid path for those coming behind to follow, myself included. I'm glad everyone stuck it out.

    Good information is a good result!

  127. #127
    Racing Snake
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    210
    OK we don't get much snow but I rode with Endo's last year, snow, ice and slush, coped well. I now have a Larry on the front, so I'll see how that goes if we actually get snow this year................

  128. #128
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    494
    I have to agree with a few others. Ward is a very skilled rider, and thanks for sharing.

    He makes it look too easy....

  129. #129
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    273
    Great videos Ward, beautiful scenery and peaceful yet energizing music from T. Rice.

    I don' t have a true fatbike but have been winter biking for 15+ years, mostly on FS bikes with Snowcat rims (44mm) and Nokians-first Extreme 296's and now Freddie's Revenz. Amazing what even that will open up in the winter-also a great set up for the changing mix ( with a little tire pressure adjustment) of connecting snowmobile, packed hiker or snowshoe trails and dirt road connectors.

    Changing tire pressures will allow for everything from 5" of fresh powder to ice with water running across off camber turns that you couldn't walk across.

    Unbelievable sunrises, streams frozen a Caribbean azure blue at -10F, jumping owls that then swoop the singletrack ahead of you...... Carrying a warm thermos of chai, covering may, many miles of trails, it's season I look forward to every year and wish I could convince more summer biking friends to try.

    Good luck with finding the balance and developing the skills needed for your new set up, and whatever rig you may be lucky enough to be running-it's a part of the sport that stirs my soul and is irreplaceable as the seasons change.

  130. #130
    Nemophilist
    Reputation: TrailMaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,873
    Quote Originally Posted by angelo View Post
    Great videos Ward, beautiful scenery and peaceful yet energizing music from T. Rice.

    I don' t have a true fatbike but have been winter biking for 15+ years, mostly on FS bikes with Snowcat rims (44mm) and Nokians-first Extreme 296's and now Freddie's Revenz. Amazing what even that will open up in the winter-also a great set up for the changing mix ( with a little tire pressure adjustment) of connecting snowmobile, packed hiker or snowshoe trails and dirt road connectors.

    Changing tire pressures will allow for everything from 5" of fresh powder to ice with water running across off camber turns that you couldn't walk across.

    Unbelievable sunrises, streams frozen a Caribbean azure blue at -10F, jumping owls that then swoop the singletrack ahead of you...... Carrying a warm thermos of chai, covering may, many miles of trails, it's season I look forward to every year and wish I could convince more summer biking friends to try.

    Good luck with finding the balance and developing the skills needed for your new set up, and whatever rig you may be lucky enough to be running-it's a part of the sport that stirs my soul and is irreplaceable as the seasons change.

  131. #131
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    Spent a couple hours in the saddle (pug) today.

    Rode down along the Platte River, getting some good sand riding in. The pug performed very well on the sandy embankments of the Platte River. Even on the loose sand, the tires barely made a track. I probably could have rode in some of the shallower areas across the river as well.

    On the way back up from the riverbed, there was still the issue of poor traction for climbing in unpacked snow. You can throw every ounce of body weight onto the rear tire, but there just isn't enough bite.

    I've been thinking more on this issue, and I think that these traction issues are probably due to the tread design of the endo and larry. If you take a gander at what companies that have been in the winter bike tire biz for a long time are doing, you'll see a very different tread pattern than what is offered on the current crop of fatbike tires.



    Studs or no studs, and regardless of tire width, that is just a much more effective tread pattern for snow than the 1 or 2mm tall chevrons that are on the endos. Remember, we are talking strictly about tread pattern here. We all know about the advantages that a higher volume tire brings. This is why think the nate will provide a measurable improvement in snow traction. But even the nate isn't a true snow tire.

    Hopefully, a big tire player will get in the fatbike game and design a proper snow tire with stud wells. It'll be heavy as all get out, but it isn't like the current offerings are light anyway.

  132. #132
    aka bOb
    Reputation: bdundee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    8,679
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    Spent a couple hours in the saddle (pug) today.

    Rode down along the Platte River, getting some good sand riding in. The pug performed very well on the sandy embankments of the Platte River. Even on the loose sand, the tires barely made a track. I probably could have rode in some of the shallower areas across the river as well.

    On the way back up from the riverbed, there was still the issue of poor traction for climbing in unpacked snow. You can throw every ounce of body weight onto the rear tire, but there just isn't enough bite.

    I've been thinking more on this issue, and I think that these traction issues are probably due to the tread design of the endo and larry. If you take a gander at what companies that have been in the winter bike tire biz for a long time are doing, you'll see a very different tread pattern than what is offered on the current crop of fatbike tires.



    Studs or no studs, and regardless of tire width, that is just a much more effective tread pattern for snow than the 1 or 2mm tall chevrons that are on the endos. Remember, we are talking strictly about tread pattern here. We all know about the advantages that a higher volume tire brings. This is why think the nate will provide a measurable improvement in snow traction. But even the nate isn't a true snow tire.

    Hopefully, a big tire player will get in the fatbike game and design a proper snow tire with stud wells. It'll be heavy as all get out, but it isn't like the current offerings are light anyway.
    No you have nothing figured out. The Larry and Endo are tire made to float (wide), in powder there is not enough support to hold them on top so they sink, are they getting down to the hardpack probably not. The tires are so wide your weight is dispersed over over 4 inches of tire (less psi to the ground). Then you throw the 4" wide path of snow you are plowing. That is a lot of snow you are trying to move out of the way. There is a reason snow tires for cars where narrow and aggressive. Yes more aggressive tread like the Nate and the tire you pictured above will do better but it still won't be great. In your situation the exact tire you pictured will do the best. You can't plow and float at the same time.

  133. #133
    movement
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    27
    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    You can't plow and float at the same time.
    When I started looking into these bikes last winter that is what I understood them to be...floatation bikes.

    I see little or no conversations about how these bikes handle/are different from other bikes. Now having test-rode a few and having just rode my own home tonight(BlackOpsPug from the Alt at Lyn/Lake, thank you very much) and I have to say that I find these bikes to be a whole different ball game. Maybe not a different ball game entirely maybe just different rules and tools. Baseball vs. whiffleball? I don't know...

    So I could see someone getting into one and being a little disappointed by certain aspects of it based on false preconceived expectations of what the performance would or wouldn't be like.

  134. #134
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    No you have nothing figured out. The Larry and Endo are tire made to float (wide), in powder there is not enough support to hold them on top so they sink, are they getting down to the hardpack probably not. The tires are so wide your weight is dispersed over over 4 inches of tire (less psi to the ground). Then you throw the 4" wide path of snow you are plowing. That is a lot of snow you are trying to move out of the way. There is a reason snow tires for cars where narrow and aggressive. Yes more aggressive tread like the Nate and the tire you pictured above will do better but it still won't be great. In your situation the exact tire you pictured will do the best. You can't plow and float at the same time.
    So a snow specific tread on a fatbike tire would not help traction one bit? Are you saying that the current tread offered is the best possible tread for snow conditions?

    The endos weren't purpose built for snow traction, like you said. They are for general flotation.

    "Better" is the key word here...

  135. #135
    Harmonius Wrench
    Reputation: Guitar Ted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,256
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudhands View Post
    When I started looking into these bikes last winter that is what I understood them to be...floatation bikes.
    .
    And I think even using that term is misleading as well. (flotation bikes, that is)

    It was apparent to me from all my 26"er days in the snow that having a go through deep, virgin powder was a lot of work. Only the driest snow allowed any sort of forward progress at the depths the OP has given here. Fatter tires make the resistance levels go up more, and as has been said, the tires may not reach terra firma, or something hard enough to grip.

    I liken it to busting your own trail on XC skis. The first pass or two is no fun. Then you get a base going and then the fun factor goes up. Same with my fat bike. I bust a trail and it is tough, but it gets better the more I go over it.

    Skinnier tire bikes still won't go through those trails i bust with my fat bike either, since they eventually bust through since they have less flotation.

    The key for me is then to either find a compressed by something else track to follow, (snow machine, dredge, foot path, cars, etc), or take the time to bust my own trail and make it more negotiable by multiple passes.
    Riden' an Smilin'
    Guitar Ted

    Blog
    RidingGravel.com

  136. #136
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,631
    Thanks for the kudos up above guys, but honestly, it's the studs making it look easy... they grip like a cat's paw. Hard to find a compromise between floatation & traction. the Endos provide the best floatation IMO (excluding the BFL's of coarse, but thats a volume thing) and, though I haven't tried 'em yet, looks like the huge lugs on the Nates will deffinatlly give you better traction. Big lugs can cause resistance and loss of floatation in sand though and might "saw" into crusty snow. Always a trade off. My little "sheet metal studs" only stick out an eighth inch or so and have very little "signature". On the 100mm rims (flatter tread profile) I run them on the outside rows and the 1st row in from the outside (on Endo's) so there's very little resistance 'till lean it over a little. On the 65mm's the tread profile is allot rounder so studs on the outside row rarely come into play, so on those I just stud the 1st row in from the outside (also on Endos). Both bikes can be leaned over pretty good on ice. In fact I run a little higher pressure for solid ice to give the studs more bite. They're short enough that I can still slide the rear end around a bit in the snow. Dirt, gravel don't seem to damage them much, but pavement rounds 'em off fast. The do it all tire (again IMO) is the Larry. For all purpose I run Larrys front and rear, "backwards" on the rear for uphill traction. Nates are on my list, can't wait to try them. I think they're going to be great in chewed up dirt, slushy snow but for all around riding, I think the Larrys are going to be faster and generate less resistance. As you've heard a million times now I'm sure, getting the pressure right is paramount!! Most folks run them way to hard when they first get they're FB's. 1 psi can make allot of difference on FB tires as per the surface.

  137. #137
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,631
    Here's a Rainy, Slushy ride down a cat track at a local ski area... little "January Thaw"...
    I think the Nates would have been optimum on this one.

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/uxVXTijBktE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  138. #138
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    Ward, wouldn't the sheet metal screw studs get dislodged easily? And if you lose one, you're left with a chewed up cavity, right?

  139. #139
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,243
    I'm pretty sure the minimal tread design on the Endos and even the Larrys is an attempt to keep some semblance of traction on marginally packed or frozen snow. That type of snow is easy to break and as soon as the surface crust is broken if you are going up a hill the tires just spin. Big aggressive lugs have high local pressures and break up the surface. So the Endo seems like an attempt to keep traction on that type of surface, which is what a lot of us ride on. The Nate will work on a different type of surface but still maybe not in real deep powder.
    Latitude 61

  140. #140
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,631
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    Ward, wouldn't the sheet metal screw studs get dislodged easily? And if you lose one, you're left with a chewed up cavity, right?
    Never lost one. They're pan heads screwed through the inside sticking through to the outside. Not only have i never had any damage, but I remove the the studs in the summer and use the Endo's for sand, then replace the studs again for winter. I cover the pan heads w/ individual squares of Gorrilla Tape to protect the tube. I'll put up a better pic if I can find one. If not I'll take a better close up as soon as I can. I drill the holes through the outside w/ a drill press to keep 'em accurate. I use a short section of 2x4 to drill into.

  141. #141
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    344
    One thing I haven't seen mention of in this thread is that snow is an ever evolving media.

    And in most places right now we are in early winter.

    8" of fresh snow as it falls and very little will float on it. Give it a few cycles of sun and temp and it consolidates and becomes very rideable. Give it some time OP and keep trying

  142. #142
    ent
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    85
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    Spent a couple hours in the saddle (pug) today.

    Rode down along the Platte River, getting some good sand riding in. The pug performed very well on the sandy embankments of the Platte River. Even on the loose sand, the tires barely made a track. I probably could have rode in some of the shallower areas across the river as well.

    On the way back up from the riverbed, there was still the issue of poor traction for climbing in unpacked snow. You can throw every ounce of body weight onto the rear tire, but there just isn't enough bite.

    I've been thinking more on this issue, and I think that these traction issues are probably due to the tread design of the endo and larry. If you take a gander at what companies that have been in the winter bike tire biz for a long time are doing, you'll see a very different tread pattern than what is offered on the current crop of fatbike tires.



    Studs or no studs, and regardless of tire width, that is just a much more effective tread pattern for snow than the 1 or 2mm tall chevrons that are on the endos. Remember, we are talking strictly about tread pattern here. We all know about the advantages that a higher volume tire brings. This is why think the nate will provide a measurable improvement in snow traction. But even the nate isn't a true snow tire.

    Hopefully, a big tire player will get in the fatbike game and design a proper snow tire with stud wells. It'll be heavy as all get out, but it isn't like the current offerings are light anyway.
    where do you live that you are riding the platte? I'm from Omaha and would love to do some river bank riding... Haven't tried that yet. Keep us updated on the nates. My rear endo is almost gone and i'm needing a new rear already

  143. #143
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    Well, the South Platte tributary, to be exact. I'm in Denver. Had I been wearing proper boots, I would have ventured into some of the shallow sections of the river.

  144. #144
    Hybrid Leftys aren't real Moderator
    Reputation: MendonCycleSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    15,944
    My experience in a nut shell. Got a Purple Pug, they came with dual Endos. The bike was fun, lots of fun. Straight lines? Great. Turning with purpose (gentle turns were fine), or stopping, particularly at speed? Not so fun. Dirt, or snow.

    Add some of the snow we get a lot of around here, (high moisture content) and the Endos floated great, but add a hill, or any need for traction? A watery, lubed up Endo is taking you nowhere.

    When Larry came out, I remember my first ride on it, ran one in front. It was like, wow, now I can use this thing like a MTB. Carving corners was much better, sure, I could still make it wash out, but hey, I could do that with a skinny tire too if i tried hard enough. Float was compromised due to the more O shaped profile, the Endo being more of a U, flattens better at low pressures for more flat out flotation.

    Enter Nate. This is the Fat traction tire from hell. I can push this tire as hard as I can, and if it washes, it's because I was out of line in my choices

    Just like any tire, these can all be pushed beyond their limits. And just like any new set up, you need to discover those limits for yourself, in your local conditions. A guy on MTBR in Nevada may love the Nevegal, but then in upstate New York? Another may hate it.

    With fatties being so few in treads, we all need to deal with what's out there. Tire molds cost huge dollars, so each new tread represents a major investment.

    There's three choices now in tread, and while the Nate may be the ultimate in traction, it still needs to be seen how it will work in various snow conditions. Some say it won't be good, based on their local situation. I'm tending to think it will be great for us with our wet, packy snow.

    Someone else said it, snow is an ever changing entity, one day may suck, a few days later, pure bliss, all on the same trail.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

    - FrostyStruthers



    www.mendoncyclesmith.com

  145. #145
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    ^ do you have any experience with a nate on the rear?

  146. #146
    Hybrid Leftys aren't real Moderator
    Reputation: MendonCycleSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    15,944
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    ^ do you have any experience with a nate on the rear?
    Yep, that's what I'm running currently, with BFL in front.

    Last night I had a first. Made it up and over this big old nasty ball of roots that I've never made, nor anyone in our group. Gaps you can drop a mid sized dog into, roots all the size of your thigh, good three foot drops on all sides. Crazy thing was, it wasn't a "oh man, that was sketchy, can't believe I made it" thing, it was more of a walk in the park, "why didn't I try this line years ago", thing, props to the fatties!!

    Great rear tire, fo sho. It'd be a solid front too, but I'm a sucker for the uber float in front.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

    - FrostyStruthers



    www.mendoncyclesmith.com

  147. #147
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    162
    So this is my first winter on a bike. I have a pugsley, I love it. I run a Nate in the rear and currently an endo in the front(can be a bit spooky on ice). We recently just had a thaw cycle 50 degrees and rain,turned alot of things to slush then when the temps went back down got real icy.

    I went out and bought a set of 700cx 40 studded nokians for my crosscheck. Thinking this would be the ticket I went for a ride this morning,there is a small hill I have to ride up-no problem on the pugs,I made it on the crosscheck but man there is no difference,the fat tires are the way to go! I love my pugs and dont really see the need for a "skinny tired bike". Just wish I had not waited all these years to get a fat tired bike.

  148. #148
    CAMBA Creature.
    Reputation: KrateKraig's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    222
    My Mukluk came with dual Larry's. I rode it all year and loved it.
    I just got a new wheelset, and decided to go with an Endomorph on the rear, Larry on the front.
    I chose the Endo for it's flatter profile, because I've heard it is a little better in the snow and sand.

    That same flat profile that makes it excel in snow and sand, is not as desirable on pavement or the dirt. When leaning in a turn and you reach the side knobs, the transition is not smooth and rather abruptly causes the bike to pitch a bit. Feels really weird, kinda squirrelly, like the front end washing out. It is very noticeable on pavement, but is slightly less obvious on singletrack.

    I wonder if this is what happened on your first ride?
    It was only my first Endo ride, And I'm looking forward to riding it in the snow (if we ever get some) and sand to see how it stacks up against the Larry.
    The Endo on the rear, makes my Mukluk handle like a completely different bike.

    I think the Nate on the rear will be the hot ticket.
    eSpeCially CrAzy IrRegular TrailBuildin' Crew
    Chequama Mama

    MTB: Mukluk/Moonlander/Super V-1.

  149. #149
    Bad cat!
    Reputation: montana_ben's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    357

    Nates...

    Two rides on nates front and rear, mixed conditions (north facing consolidated, 6-8", crusty, bumpy foot traffic, south facing some dirt, some thin crusty w/ice patches) singletrack.

    So far Excellent climbing traction. Front not as directional/wandering as larry. A definite improvement on home-studded Larry/endo combo.

    Next step, mess around with a little tubeless after they've shaped a little? Homebrew studs for those icy patches? We shall see.

    My mukluk tells me they're wider than the endo--no chain rub with endo, slightest bit with nate, not an issue.

    Hopefully OP will find some similar results?

  150. #150
    mtbr member
    Reputation: High Gear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    126
    Quote Originally Posted by GTR2ebike View Post
    +1, if it's still washing out in icy conditions get get some grip studs http://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/spi...te-754207.html

    BUT from what I know (about cars) skinnier tires are better in the snow, on pavement. You want a tire that is going to cut through the snow or slush so the tire reaches the pavement. A fat bike adds flotation, so basically the opposite. Obviously their is a transition, in conditions, where a fat bike would be better but I think you'd need a lot of snow or very hard packed snow.
    I agree. Sand and snow are two different things. As far as ATV's you want wide low pressure tires. Use this in the snow and you'll float but slide. Maybe add studs to get some grip.
    Last edited by High Gear; 12-11-2011 at 04:37 PM.

  151. #151
    4.0" fully suspended
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    402
    ultraspontane unfortunately not many snowmobile trails on the Colorado front range. What I found great to ride are trails that are moderate grade and see a lot backcountry xc ski use. Seems like february-march the trail really gets consolidated. The thaw freeze cycle appears to help more than anything else. When riding trails that are packed down only by xc ski's it is a really narrow track and makes riding fun challenging.
    Once trails get consolidated wait for 6-8" powder and take buddies with normally aspirated bikes. You will appreciate the difference.
    In meantime you can also try Leadville, they have a race series up there. I wonder if Tennesee Pass would let bikes on their network of xc ski trails? I'm sure Eldora is out.

  152. #152
    mtbr member
    Reputation: c0nsumer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    477
    Finally got my Mukluk 2 out in snow this weekend, with Saturday's ride being lower temperature and Sunday's being in deeper snow (~1.5" or snow). With the stock Larry in the front and Endomorph in the rear I was really impressed by how it worked out.

    Saturday's ride was on soft, occasionally mucky trails and a bit of hard pack and snow and occasional ice over water. The bike floated nicely, and I found myself able to ride over icy puddles that would have broken through had I walked on them or ridden them on my normal 29er.

    Sunday's ride impressed me, because I was really happy with how well the tires hooked up on faster (~20MPH) snow-covered downhills. In previous rides on sloppy surfaces I was less than impressed with the Endomorph's tendency to go sideways on slippery things, but in snow and on frozen surfaces it was just fine. I only had it kick out once on me, and that was in some weird slush/mud stuff on a fast, sweeping corner.

    The only thing I don't really like is the need to be constantly pedaling, but that's just the nature of a fat bike. I won't complain about it because it is what it is, but it does mean that riding this bike takes a fair bit more work than a skinnier tired bike.

    I'm really looking forward to trying this in deeper / more snow. Too bad we've got rain forecasted for later in the week...

  153. #153
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    37

    its all in the snow

    Have to agree to what 100 people already have said. Its all in the snow conditions.

    3rd week in november(or was it the last week? can't remember ) we had our first snowfall of the season here in edmonton. A wopping 10 inches of fluffy powder hit the ground. next day it was a dry -25*c. First snow ride on my pugsley i acquired in the summer. loaded up with provisions for a 5-6 hour out and back ride through a local xc ski trail. I covered 3.5 km in 2 hours and decided to turn back! I was exhausted trying to push through 9 inches of fresh snow. I was experiencing the exact thing what OP was. front wheel constantly wanting to wash out on anything but completely level surface. If i could muster up some speed it was a little better but any sort of off camber climbing, instant off the bike and i was walkin/pushing. But from my extensive research beforehand i knew what to expect and this really didn't surprise me. It was actually very funny and i was having a great time especially when i had to pedal to keep the bike moving down a hill.

    It was a learning experience for sure. Another thing i discovered is hubs and bearings do not like to move when it gets that cold. I think that was part of my problem of trying to keep the bike moving, the grease was just freezing up slowing my forward movement to a crawl. Even pushing the bike on my tracks on the way back was difficult.

    My last few rides were in december when the temps have warmed up to around 0*c. Haven't really had any snow since then and all the trails are nice and hard packed from all the hiker traffic. Now here is where the pugs seems to work really well. I can rip around the local singletrack almost like its summer except everything is so much smoother with the hard pack snow covering up all the rough spots. Even on the high speed downhill sections i can slow down quickly without locking the wheels, tons of grip on the hard pack snow.

    Another case i took the bike out my front door and rode across the local school field which was covered in snow that had been freeze thawed several time. Nice crusty layer on top and to my surpise i was managing to stay on top of the crusty layer, only occasionally breaking through some softer spots or places where people had walked. Maybe if i lost a few pounds it would help me float better too.

  154. #154
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    473
    jonb505, that might just be the best reply in this entire thread.

    Why do I think that?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonb505 View Post
    A wopping 10 inches of fluffy powder hit the ground... I covered 3.5 km in 2 hours and decided to turn back! I was exhausted trying to push through 9 inches of fresh snow. I was experiencing the exact thing what OP was. front wheel constantly wanting to wash out on anything but completely level surface. But from my extensive research beforehand i knew what to expect and this really didn't surprise me. It was actually very funny and i was having a great time especially when i had to pedal to keep the bike moving down a hill.
    You researched the purchase, and actually understood the product before you bought it. And since you knew what you were buying, there was no need to come to an online forum and whine about the performance of the bike.

    You then continued to ride the bike in a variety of conditions, and based on the 2 quotes below, you discovered that your fat bike allows you to go on some awesome snow rides... rides that would not be possible on any other style of bike.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonb505 View Post
    ...all the trails are nice and hard packed from all the hiker traffic. Now here is where the pugs seems to work really well. I can rip around the local singletrack almost like its summer except everything is so much smoother with the hard pack snow covering up all the rough spots.
    Quote Originally Posted by jonb505 View Post
    ...rode across the local school field which was covered in snow that had been freeze thawed several time. Nice crusty layer on top and to my surpise i was managing to stay on top of the crusty layer...
    Thanks for showing the OP how it's supposed to be done.

  155. #155
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    37

    Hi folks

    Just like to share an experience from last nights short ride that shows again the limits of traction these machines have.
    In terwillegar park in edmonton there is this one section of trail, a very steep, get your butt back behind the seat, and hold on to the brakes for dear life, kind of steep trail and i had written it off for winter riding as too dangerous. besides being steep it is a heavily forested area and any mistake or loss of control could send me over a river bank or into a tree possibly.
    Now I happened to acquire over the winter a fancy new full body armor kit complete with full face helmet for a snowboarding trip the end of the month, and of course i plan to do more DH bike park riding next summer so that helped me justify the purchase.
    So for some reason last night at about 8pm I had this overpowering urge to drive into the city and go ride that short steep section of trail just to see what would happen. So I suited up in all the protective gear and helmet and set out.
    Sorry no pictures so you'll have to rely on my first person account as proof it happened.
    I pedal my bike to the top of the hill and walk part of the way as it was getting hot in all that gear even though it was -10*C outside. So i do one last check of my gear and head down the trail. First bit had some short steep drops and level windy sections. Snow was hard pack so it was grippy, no problem. Then I round the corner to the steep steep section. No hesitation I dive in, get back behind the seat and start riding the brakes, then i hit it, halfway down that steep hill i come to a slick icy spot(icy as in looks like somebody dumped a couple large pails of water on the slope), that was it i was done, down we went, i went down on my butt gracefully and slid halfway down the hill till the icy section stopped and my pugsley did a couple of rolls and slid to a stop at the edge of the trail a few feet down from me. Well now I know for sure the pugs does not work on ice! especially when that ice is on a hill at a 45 degree angle.
    All of this happened in pretty slow motion so although slightly terrifying when it first happened i was laughing my head off after.
    Just for reference that same hill in the summer time i actually found the larry and endomorphs would slip under hard braking riding down it on the dirt!

    Anyway just had to share my story, maybe some of those drywall screws in my tires would have made a difference, i'll never know.

    Happy riding people

  156. #156
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    344
    Quote Originally Posted by dirtydoug View Post
    When riding trails that are packed down only by xc ski's it is a really narrow track and makes riding fun challenging.
    This is a good way to piss off other trail users...and see snow bikes banned. Especially if it is a narrow classic track (and/or skin track).

    I don't have issues with riding on skate tracks because the fat bike makes less an impact than the skate skis do...

    But an nice parallel classic or skin track will be ruined with a fat bike tire, and as a user of both, I would be pissed too...

    g

  157. #157
    Black Sheep rising
    Reputation: utabintarbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    917
    Quote Originally Posted by jonb505 View Post
    ...Then I round the corner to the steep steep section. No hesitation I dive in, get back behind the seat and start riding the brakes...
    There's the problem. Likely if you would have let off the brakes you would have made it past the ice, albeit at terminal velocity or thereabouts.
    Let the market decide!

    N42.58 W83.06

  158. #158
    mtbr member
    Reputation: buckfiddious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    893
    Don't know if this has been covered yet, but holy crap will an LBS salesman oversell the capabilities of one of these things.

    I spent 2 years as a dedicated winter commuter riding studded 26" mtb tires and I learned a few things, like even studs won't keep you upright when you hit that nasty mix of salt, sand and snow that accumulates at teh bottom of hills 'round these parts.

    I learned that on pavement, you're gonna be riding very upright and turning verrrrrrry carefully.

    But christ, when I went in to test ride a pugsley, the salesman was trying to convince me that this thing would rail turns on glaze ice. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he was probably full of *****. Pavement gets greasy as hell in the winter- no studs and someone telling you that you should be able to hit turns as hard as you did on a roadbike is a recipe for disaster and disappointment.

    Personally, I can't believe a salesman would tell anyone that a pugsley is the ideal bike for winter commuting- with no available studded tires and the amount of ice that collects on streets and bike paths, the pugs (or any other snow bike) is gonna have all the same problems any other non-studded bike has.

    A lot of what I'm seeing reminds me of the early days of mountain bikes, when the actual abilities of the bikes hadn't really been clearly defined and salesmen would repeat any dumb thing they saw in an ad...

  159. #159
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    37
    Quote Originally Posted by utabintarbo View Post
    There's the problem. Likely if you would have let off the brakes you would have made it past the ice, albeit at terminal velocity or thereabouts.
    aye, your probably right but i likely would not have made the slight bend in the trail and ended up over the bank into the river, haha. Or maybe i should stop being such a baby and ride fixed gear no brakes

  160. #160
    Black Sheep rising
    Reputation: utabintarbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    917
    Quote Originally Posted by jonb505 View Post
    aye, your probably right but i likely would not have made the slight bend in the trail and ended up over the bank into the river, haha.
    Well, there is that slight ...complication

    Quote Originally Posted by jonb505 View Post
    Or maybe i should stop being such a baby and ride fixed gear no brakes
    Yeah! Man up, ya sissy!
    Let the market decide!

    N42.58 W83.06

  161. #161
    @adelorenzo
    Reputation: anthony.delorenzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    1,670
    OK, so I'm late to this discussion, but here it goes my attempts to stir the pot a bit...

    Snow is slippery. No really. It is.

    It doesn't matter what kind of tires you have, there are just times where you will spin out climbing and nothing will change that. It's part of winter biking.

    In loose or chunky stuff the front will wash at any excuse. Sidehill? Forget about it. Little rut in the trail? There goes your front wheel, see if you can hold it together. Going downhill on a Puglsey can be like steering a shopping cart. The two wheel drift just adds to the excitement, and the soft snow cushions the fall when you eat ****.

    I've had the opposite too. When snow conditions are good it can be like riding on the smoothest, fastest, most awesome dirt ever.

    I stick by my mantra: If you're not pushing, then it's not snow biking.

  162. #162
    i heart singletrack
    Reputation: mgersib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    1,553
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    Well, when my single speed road bike is getting around better in the snow than my pugsley, it really does seem like a gimmick.

    Just so I have this straight, the pugsley is only better than narrow tires on hard pack or snowmobile trails? What good is a ride anywhere bike if you have to stick to snowmobile trails? I thought the whole point was being able to venture off into areas you wouldn't otherwise go. Float is great, but if there is no traction, what is the point?

    I said I bought the pugsley as winter commuter, but I also had high hopes for it as a winter mountain bike. My experience so far is bad slippage on angled terrain, so it also sort of nixes that idea too...

    I've tried various tire pressures, and have a digital pressure guage. No matter what the pressure, it doesn' grip in deep snow as well as my 28mm slick. I imagine a 35mm studded cross tire would be head and shoulders above that, too.

    If you guys think the nate will significantly improve traction in snow, I'd be willing to try it. I really want this to work. But if it doesn't, I see no reason to keep a 1500 dollar novelty in my stable.
    Well, sir, it seems that if thousands of riders are having no problems negotiating gnarly, slick terrain with their "gimmicks," I suppose it's due to their inferior riding skills, 'eh?

    ... something to think about.
    I like bikes

  163. #163
    i heart singletrack
    Reputation: mgersib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    1,553
    Quote Originally Posted by Scoobytao View Post
    I think Ultraspontaine is right. Fatbikes weren't designed for city commuting. Probably a narrow studded tire is better than any Endomorph, Larry or Nate. Fatbikes are lots of fun, but I am not sure why there is such zealotry to claim they are the best tool in all situations.
    I have a good friend that delivers for Jimmy John's on his Pugsley, and he's their most productive delivery person -- driver or rider, so don't tell me fat bikes aren't designed for city commuting. You just don't know man. Suburban living's got a hold of you...
    I like bikes

  164. #164
    i heart singletrack
    Reputation: mgersib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    1,553
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    ^ Yep, if the nate allows for climbing on the rear, I'll most definitely be buying another one for the front. 90 dollars for the 'cheap' version.
    I bet you'll like the Nates... I've got a friend here that's got a set and says they're the burliest, most traction-laden tires he owns... and he's got everything now. They give up a little rolling speed for the traction, but I suspect your issues with side slipping will be cured.

    Look forward to hearing what you think.

    Cheers,
    MG
    I like bikes

  165. #165
    mtbr member
    Reputation: buckfiddious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    893
    Quote Originally Posted by mgersib View Post
    I have a good friend that delivers for Jimmy John's on his Pugsley, and he's their most productive delivery person -- driver or rider, so don't tell me fat bikes aren't designed for city commuting. You just don't know man. Suburban living's got a hold of you...
    "one guy can use" doesn't equal "designed for"... I can use a 42" plasma screen as a table and it'll do pretty well, but it's not designed to be a table, and there are other options that work better.

  166. #166
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    Quote Originally Posted by mgersib View Post
    Well, sir, it seems that if thousands of riders are having no problems negotiating gnarly, slick terrain with their "gimmicks," I suppose it's due to their inferior riding skills, 'eh?

    ... something to think about.
    Yeah? Well here is something for you to think about:

    Got the nate mounted up on the rear today and went for a test ride. There are definite improvements in traction in nearly all conditions. It's pretty much better than the endo at everything except pavement. My ride took me through greasy mud, crusted snow, hard pack trails, and some powdery sections in the shade. I was able to complete some climbs that the endo would have no chance on. When you sit back and lay your body weight on the nate, it actually has some bite that will help propel you forward.

    So what does this say about the folks who pretend that there are no traction issues with the endos and larrys? I'm pleasantly surprised by the nates. And I will be very much looking forward to future tire offerings with smarter tread patterns. If I were just going to bury my head in the sand and ignore any issues I was having with the stock tires, I would not have been driven to drop a crisp 100 dollar bill on a new nate. And if Surly were to pretend that the endo and Larry were the perfect snow tire, no new tires would be developed.

    Honesty and critical thinking is what is going to move tire development and engineering forward, not constant high fiving because you all like fat tires. The endos and larrys just werent cutting the mustard as far as traction goes. I'm very pleased with the nate in that aspect.

  167. #167
    I'm sticky
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    143
    Hey Sherlock, everyone already knows the Endo lacks traction compared to a more aggressive tread. In fact any idiot (well, most idiots) would have figured that out just by looking at it.

    There are plenty of conditions where the Endo and Larry provide more than sufficient traction. You'd have to be pretty dense to think they'd be the ideal choice in every condition.

    Stop trying to pawn off being a prick as "moving tire development and engineering forward"... that's one of the dumbest things you've posted (and you've posted some pretty stupid stuff). And stop acting like you have some sort of insight into fat bikes. Nothing you've posted is news to an experienced fat bike rider.

    Get a clue.
    Last edited by pcrap; 12-15-2011 at 08:01 PM.

  168. #168
    will rant for food
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    3,836
    Disclaimer: I run Regular Cycles (as of 2016). As a profiteer of the bicycle industry, I am not to be taken very seriously.

  169. #169
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,243
    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    Maybe if that bike had Nates it would not only stand up but kick the crap outta that car.
    Latitude 61

  170. #170
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Beachcomber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    78
    I'll admit I haven't tried the Nate, but while it seems best to you for your conditions, with your limited experience, you can't just write off the fact that it can be a superior tire for other peoples conditions.

    It's pretty obvious the Larry and Endo weren't the best for your conditions, but you were asking a lot of a tire to perform in all snow packs affected by 17-60 degree weather conditions.

    Up here in Anchorage, they seem to work pretty well and are a standard tire combo up here.

  171. #171
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    Quote Originally Posted by Beachcomber View Post
    I'll admit I haven't tried the Nate, but while it seems best to you for your conditions, with your limited experience, you can't just write off the fact that it can be a superior tire for other peoples conditions.

    It's pretty obvious the Larry and Endo weren't the best for your conditions, but you were asking a lot of a tire to perform in all snow packs affected by 17-60 degree weather conditions.

    Up here in Anchorage, they seem to work pretty well and are a standard tire combo up here.
    Well, if a nate provides better traction than endo/larry in Colorado, I'm pretty sure the nate would provide better traction than endo/larry in Anchorage. I guess if you hate traction and love spinning out, then the endo/larry would be a better choice.

    The fact that the endo/larrys were the first ones to the party and also the least expensive offering may have something to do with them being standard equipment. Nate's have also only been out for a few months, right?
    Last edited by ultraspontane; 12-16-2011 at 12:30 AM.

  172. #172
    .
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    91
    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    Personally, I can't believe a salesman would tell anyone that a pugsley is the ideal bike for winter commuting- with no available studded tires and the amount of ice that collects on streets and bike paths, the pugs (or any other snow bike) is gonna have all the same problems any other non-studded bike has..
    Speaking of, Schwable is making a studded fat tire... I hear they are planning to release it early 2012.
    Guided Mt. Bike Tours on Alaska's Kenai Peninsula
    www.sewardbiketours.com

  173. #173
    That Unicycle Guy
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    354
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    Well, if a nate provides better traction than endo/larry in Colorado, I'm pretty sure the nate would provide better traction than endo/larry in Anchorage. I guess if you hate traction and love spinning out, then the endo/larry would be a better choice.

    The fact that the endo/larrys were the first ones to the party and also the least expensive offering may have something to do with them being standard equipment. Nate's have also only been out for a few months, right?
    ah, you haven't done much riding in vastly varying geographies and climates have you? Different places have different kinds of soils climates and conditions. When I posted about my similar experiences earlier in this thread I also stated that I am not planning on upgrading to a Nate since the conditions in Colorado that were making me slide all over the place on my Larry are very rare in my native Saskatchewan (where I do the vast majority of my riding).

    I am currently on a roadtrip across the States and Canada unicycling in all sorts of interesting places along the way and I have 4 different tires and two wheels that I throw in my frame depending on local conditions. They are all great tires, but none are great for all trails or all conditions.


    EDIT: glad the Nate works for you

  174. #174
    Black Sheep rising
    Reputation: utabintarbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    917
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    Well, if a nate provides better traction than endo/larry in Colorado, I'm pretty sure the nate would provide better traction than endo/larry in Anchorage.
    Non sequitur. Different conditions require different tires. I can think of several cases where the float of an endo would be infinitely better than the trail-rippng traction of a Nate.
    Let the market decide!

    N42.58 W83.06

  175. #175
    It aint gonna ride itself
    Reputation: MauricioB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    585
    Quote Originally Posted by Beachcomber View Post
    I'll admit I haven't tried the Nate, but while it seems best to you for your conditions, with your limited experience, you can't just write off the fact that it can be a superior tire for other peoples conditions.

    It's pretty obvious the Larry and Endo weren't the best for your conditions, but you were asking a lot of a tire to perform in all snow packs affected by 17-60 degree weather conditions.

    Up here in Anchorage, they seem to work pretty well and are a standard tire combo up here.
    My experience in Wisconsin has been similar. The Endomorph is really adept at staying on top of deep snow that is compacted, consolidated or has a crust on top, and does so with minimal rolling resistance. Both the Endo and the Larry are great in the conditions for which they were designed, and especially for long-distance riding where efficiency matters.

  176. #176
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    I would still be willing to bet that on most surfaces, the nate provides a measurable increase in traction. The endo may get it done in some places, but the nate floats too. Just because it has lugs, doesn't mean it can't float well.

  177. #177
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    Quote Originally Posted by Sewered Rider View Post
    Speaking of, Schwable is making a studded fat tire... I hear they are planning to release it early 2012.
    Finally!

  178. #178
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    481
    I have to add that I think some of the loose powdery snow on our single track up here in Alaska would cater to the Nate better than a Larry/Endo combo. Hard to beat those two tires when things get packed down.

    If it helps any I am thinking of picking up two Nate's today for the A.S.S. race tomorrow morning.

  179. #179
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Beachcomber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    78
    Let us know how the Nates do for you curious how they'll compare on the same trails. I'll post a trail report of my ride tonight over in the Alaska Trail Report thread.

  180. #180
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,631
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    I would still be willing to bet that on most surfaces, the nate provides a measurable increase in traction. The endo may get it done in some places, but the nate floats too. Just because it has lugs, doesn't mean it can't float well.
    Actually big lugs can get in the way of floatation, especially in loose stuff. Big teeth on a saw blade cut deep very quickly... a saw blade w/ no teeth won't cut into anything. There's always trade offs. That's why "fat addicts" often have a quiver of different tires. In big, soft dunes, I'll take good 'ol Endo's over Nates any day. On rocky, chewed up jeep trails or slushy spring snow, I think the nate will be a cool tire.

  181. #181
    mtbr member
    Reputation: motorman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    553
    Different tyres for different jobs. It is called choice. Choose carefully & enjoy the riding...

    There are no rules here, everyone knows their local conditions & the tyre that will work best for their location at any given time
    .
    I really like my nates, but as there is a lack of wet snow & I am riding coastal stuff from the door at the moment, I will be changing back to a larry/BFL combo today. Conditions change, might be back on Nates next week......who knows.
    Drink coffee....ride bikes....eat cake
    http://morayfatbike.blogspot.com

  182. #182
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Velobike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    7,171
    Quote Originally Posted by motorman View Post
    ...I will be changing back to a larry/BFL combo today. Conditions change, might be back on Nates next week......who knows.
    Don't forget to whine and chuck insults in an aggressive teenage gnarly dude manner when conditions make it necessary to change your tyres...
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
    Latitude: 57º36' Highlands, Scotland

  183. #183
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Beachcomber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    78
    Fatbike Traction seems to have 4 main factors:

    1) The Rider: Experience in riding different conditions, knowing the proper gear to be in, where to distribute your weight for maximum performance. There is a lot of finesse to riding on snow and knowing how much force your tire will hold and how fast you can move to keep from spinning your wheels is just part of the game.

    2) Tire Pressure: Little changes make huge differences in performance and knowing what pressure is best for what conditions comes out of experience.

    3) Tire Tread: There is a balance between grip, float, and ground pressure. Nate's will grip better but that doesn't mean the snowpack will cooperate, my Endo will hook up the top layer of snow and throw it off a weak lower layer just as well. If you have grippy hardpack under that maybe the Nate will dig down to it when an Endo wouldn't. If you have a thin crust of snow that you can barely walk on, the Endo may float over it whereas the pressure points in the Nate tread will break through.

    3) The Snow: Whatever layer cake of snowy goodness Mother Nature serves up is what you get, no choice about that. Every type of snow has unique challenges to traction, add in varying layers and it gets more complicated.

    Snow is so inconsistent everything is in constant flux that's what makes it interesting, there's no single tire that will perform the best in all conditions, but getting the experience to ride efficiently, set your tire pressure and choose the right tire will make for easier riding.

  184. #184
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    After a few more rides, I'd say that the only real disadvantage that the nate has is rolling resistance. On crust, if the nate punces through, the Larry also punches through. I'd wager that flotation is 99% tire volume and 1% tread. If there really is any loss in flotation from the nate, its minute and the increased traction more than makes up for it. In dry, firm conditions, the endo may be a better choice.

  185. #185
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,276
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    That is a good example of different setups for different riders'

    The Dart was the tire I NEVER had to worry about washing out. It just carved every corner in most conditions for me.
    Agreed, the Schwalbe Racing Ralph's perform better than the snow bike's fatness when you can cut through to ground. IMO. Horses for courses.

  186. #186
    Witty McWitterson
    Reputation: ~martini~'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,024
    Quote Originally Posted by Sewered Rider View Post
    Speaking of, Schwable is making a studded fat tire... I hear they are planning to release it early 2012.
    Can't wait to cough up $200 per TIRE for that privilege!
    Just a regular guy.

  187. #187
    mtbr member
    Reputation: GTR2ebike's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    1,872
    Quote Originally Posted by Sewered Rider View Post
    Speaking of, Schwable is making a studded fat tire... I hear they are planning to release it early 2012.
    Did you get this from a reliable source?

  188. #188
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post

    Personally, I can't believe a salesman would tell anyone that a pugsley is the ideal bike for winter commuting- with no available studded tires and the amount of ice that collects on streets and bike paths, the pugs (or any other snow bike) is gonna have all the same problems any other non-studded bike has.
    From my limited experience commuting on my 907, I can say it's a lot better than a regular mountain bike without studded tires, and feels a lot more stable than a mountain bike with skinny studded tires.

    The key, once again, is the fatness of the tires. Running low pressure, the tires don't get caught as easily in the frozen ruts which are often hidden by fresh snow. I've crash several times on studded tires under those road conditions. And when I hit icy patches, the tires broke loose in a much more predictable way than a unstudded skinny tire.

  189. #189
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Velobike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    7,171
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterClaw View Post
    ...The key, once again, is the fatness of the tires. Running low pressure, the tires don't get caught as easily in the frozen ruts which are often hidden by fresh snow. I've crash several times on studded tires under those road conditions. And when I hit icy patches, the tires broke loose in a much more predictable way than a unstudded skinny tire.
    This was today's ride. Nokian 29er Gazza Extreme 294 studs in tyre.

    Conditions - approx 2" fresh snow on top of polished ice. I averaged a spinout approx every 30 - 50 yards on the climb. (Basically any time I hit a hidden rut).



    Should have taken the fatbike...
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
    Latitude: 57º36' Highlands, Scotland

  190. #190
    .
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    91

    studded 4" schwable

    Quote Originally Posted by GTR2ebike View Post
    Did you get this from a reliable source?
    Yes. Albeit 2nd hand. My inside rep is a purchaser for a parts distributor in the lower 48... He says schwable is pretty tight lipped about it and i haven't seen pics, but he's asking me how many I'll buy when they're in.
    Guided Mt. Bike Tours on Alaska's Kenai Peninsula
    www.sewardbiketours.com

  191. #191
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,236
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    After a few more rides, I'd say that the only real disadvantage that the nate has is rolling resistance. On crust, if the nate punces through, the Larry also punches through. I'd wager that flotation is 99% tire volume and 1% tread. If there really is any loss in flotation from the nate, its minute and the increased traction more than makes up for it. In dry, firm conditions, the endo may be a better choice.
    Rolling resistance of a tire is the last thing I think about for snow or other low traction riding conditions
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  192. #192
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Rolling resistance of a tire is the last thing I think about for snow or other low traction riding conditions
    Me too.

  193. #193
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,631
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    Me too.
    Decreasing rolling resistance on sand, snow & other loose and/or soft surfaces is the whole idea behind Fat Biking in the first place. And it's the "floatation", mainly, that decreases that resistance. Tread style & tire pressure are adjustments we make to "dial In" performance for different surface conditions.

  194. #194
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,133
    We got a real nice dumping of fluffy, dry powder here in Denver. My pugs is severely handicapped in these conditions, even with the nate. While a definite imrovement over the endo, the nate is still a slug compared to a skinnier tire in powder. I'm thinking about having a set of 29er wheels built up for the pug so I can run 35mm cross tires to slice through the powder. Hmm...

    So the big question is whether it's worth it to keep the pugs when most of the snow here would be better handled by a cross bike. I have a feeling that I might miss the pugs during summer trips to moab. But maybe a full squishy would be the ticket. Decisions, decisions.

  195. #195
    Chad
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    58
    Fair-enough comment...honestly..BUT?......Will you be trying to hit your old "single track" haunts?? Or will you be exploring the tracks of the local snowmobile club or back-country ski-ers?? The conditions vary widely and so should your aspirations of time on the bike this time of year. Maybe think trails previously trodden... There are many winter paths that most MTN bikers wouldn't even consider in the fair months that make TONS of sense on the cold months...

    Just Say'n

    Imagine way out-side the box....

  196. #196
    Chad
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    58
    Sound advice MauricioB.

  197. #197
    My cup runneth over
    Reputation: rmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    2,357
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    We got a real nice dumping of fluffy, dry powder here in Denver. My pugs is severely handicapped in these conditions, even with the nate. While a definite imrovement over the endo, the nate is still a slug compared to a skinnier tire in powder. I'm thinking about having a set of 29er wheels built up for the pug so I can run 35mm cross tires to slice through the powder. Hmm...

    So the big question is whether it's worth it to keep the pugs when most of the snow here would be better handled by a cross bike. I have a feeling that I might miss the pugs during summer trips to moab. But maybe a full squishy would be the ticket. Decisions, decisions.
    Nothing really works well in the 12 - 16 super dry inches we got but try the Pugs on Saturday on Green Mountain and see how it does... A little hiker stomping makes a huge difference.

  198. #198
    That Unicycle Guy
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    354
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    We got a real nice dumping of fluffy, dry powder here in Denver. My pugs is severely handicapped in these conditions, even with the nate. While a definite imrovement over the endo, the nate is still a slug compared to a skinnier tire in powder. I'm thinking about having a set of 29er wheels built up for the pug so I can run 35mm cross tires to slice through the powder. Hmm...

    So the big question is whether it's worth it to keep the pugs when most of the snow here would be better handled by a cross bike. I have a feeling that I might miss the pugs during summer trips to moab. But maybe a full squishy would be the ticket. Decisions, decisions.
    If you are going to want to commute on loose snow over streets and go ride at moab the Pugs probably isn't the weapon of choice.

  199. #199
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Veldrijdenrenner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    26
    Nuthin works in 12+ inches of powder. Its a bike not a snowmobile. Got a 69'er with full Nokian 294 studs and its worse in dry packed powder than my Moonlander, you just punch through to the bottom. Plus riding packed roads is far better on the fatty tires unless you hit ice. The narrow tires get thrown around by ruts and unpacked groves in the snow. Rode some trails today packed by CC skiers and snowshoes and could get along unless the grade increased, would be totally un-ridable on a narrow tire bike. Also road some deep downhill powder. Played with pressure alot today and decided to ride about 4.5 psi today and still had trouble in the pow pow. I did manage to ride over my neighbors kids driveway pile snow hill for his sled. Impressed.

  200. #200
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Veldrijdenrenner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    26

    moonlander in 12"+ snow

    this is just sittin there in untracked powder, even riding along at 4.5psi i was sinking too deep to pedal more than a couple yards or so depending on grade. axle deep snow is tough
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Disappointed with my Pugsleys performance in the snow-imag0343.jpg  


Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. thus far i'm very dissapointed...
    By alfonz212 in forum Banshee Bikes
    Replies: 101
    Last Post: 05-20-2011, 08:49 AM
  2. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-11-2010, 04:09 PM
  3. A little dissapointed.........
    By PBR me! in forum Colorado - Front Range
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-13-2010, 04:21 PM
  4. A little dissapointed?
    By toyman in forum 29er Bikes
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 11-14-2009, 09:07 PM
  5. Pugsleys on the CDN GDR
    By vikb in forum Surly
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 07-22-2009, 07:33 AM

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2019 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.