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  1. #1
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    Careful where you ride this time of the year.

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  2. #2
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    No sympathy whatsoever for the hunters. Someone who misidentifies an animal should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. No excuses. I know many responsible hunters and they only take the shot when they are absolutely certain of what they are shooting at and whether they will kill it, which means they go on many hunting trips and never fire a shot or get an animal. This should be the standard and it should be heavily enforced. It's not the responsibility of everyone else to make up for a hunter's impatience or lack of ethics. The responsibility is solely on the person that brings a gun to the forest to kill things.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    No sympathy whatsoever for the hunters. Someone who misidentifies an animal should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. No excuses. I know many responsible hunters and they only take the shot when they are absolutely certain of what they are shooting at and whether they will kill it, which means they go on many hunting trips and never fire a shot or get an animal. This should be the standard and it should be heavily enforced. It's not the responsibility of everyone else to make up for a hunter's impatience or lack of ethics. The responsibility is solely on the person that brings a gun to the forest to kill things.
    As a hunter, I fully agree.

    Should be the same punishment and responsibility as an automobile driver that hits a bicylist.

  4. #4
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    Who to blame or how much punishment a hunter receives, doesn't help you much when you're dead. Be careful where you ride. Stay out of areas where big game is being hunted.
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  5. #5
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    I used to hunt and may well again. I cannot imagine shooting at something until I know EXACTLY what it is.
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  6. #6
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    I caught up with a hunter last year at dusk coming out of a favorite trail, he said that he was glad he saw me go in as I looked alot like a deer at dusk. I had worn a red jacket that looked bright in the day but unfortunately looked brown after the sun went down, now I always wear hunter orange this time of year.
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  7. #7
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    I recommend wearing blaze orange and running a light if you're biking anytime near dusk during hunting season. Dawn and dusk lighting is weird.....

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    As a hunter, I fully agree.

    Should be the same punishment and responsibility as an automobile driver that hits a bicylist.
    Hopefully itís a lot worse punishment than that. Around me, You kill a cyclist with your car and you are most likely not even getting a ticket.

    Two friends killed this year on bikes. Nothing happened to either driver.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    No sympathy whatsoever for the hunters. Someone who misidentifies an animal should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. No excuses. I know many responsible hunters and they only take the shot when they are absolutely certain of what they are shooting at and whether they will kill it, which means they go on many hunting trips and never fire a shot or get an animal. This should be the standard and it should be heavily enforced. It's not the responsibility of everyone else to make up for a hunter's impatience or lack of ethics. The responsibility is solely on the person that brings a gun to the forest to kill things.
    As a cyclist, hiker, outdoors person I know I would be a fool to enter the woods in anything but bright colors this time of year. Secondly, out of respect for hunters I avoid riding trails near dusk or dawn. While they may not shoot me I could screw up their hunt by scaring off animals. The riding season is much longer than hunting season, so I have no problem sharing the resource.

    The other day I was in a non hunting area and spooked 2 deer. I followed them a few hundred yards down the trail. If I were in a hunting area I could see how a mistake could be made.

    98% (or more) of hunters are very respectful of their weapons, but that does not mean that mistakes cannot be made. A misfired rifle shot does not care about your rights as a cyclist. YOU need to take precautions, I sure do.

  10. #10
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    Hunting for something is usually going on year-round. They don't own the forests.
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  11. #11
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    You chose to take a weapon, into the woods.

    You also chose to drive a 3000 lb weapon, down the road.

    Both of these objects, sitting in place, are virtually incapable of damaging so much as a blade of grass.

    In the hands of a human user, they both become deadly if used without proper respect, attention, and behavior.

    That non gun toting, or non car wrapped humans get slaughtered, be they walking, biking, or simply sitting in their yard, and the human that did it is not charged because "it was an accident/mistake/trick of the light, whatever, is a crime.

    I say this as a vehicle owner, and gun owner, haven't hunted in a while, but used to a fair bit.

    If you can't use your choice of weapon with full and proper care, that's bad enough. But when you take the life of another, you aren't due some special privilege because you did so with a piece of equipment and no outright, direct, malicious intent.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Hunting for something is usually going on year-round. They don't own the forests.
    Neither do cyclists. If I ride in a place where it is likely hunting is going on, it is ultimately my decision of when to ride there and what to wear.

    In Wisconsin the primary hunting season is deer hunting. Bow season is September through December. I avoid dawn and dusk rides on public hunting land out of respect for them.

    Primary gun season lasts 9 days in late November. I stay out of the woods during that time except to ride to my deer stand on private land. I am head to toe orange.

    Every year some 600,000 hunters take to the woods for gun season in Wisconsin. I cannot recall if a cyclist has ever been shot by a hunter in Wisconsin.
    Last edited by BlueCheesehead; 10-15-2018 at 08:43 AM.

  13. #13
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    This is why I don't go in the woods during rifle season around here. Hunters can have at it all they want while I stick to my gravel bike.

    Reading this made me do some research about hunting accidents my state (Vermont) - a state where hunting is hugely popular and access to guns is very easy. Hunting accidents here are nearly non existent (there were none reported in 2013). The state began wide spread (and free) hunting safety programs back in the 70s when hunting accidents were more frequent (20 or so per year). The high school I teach at even does a hunting safety class on some weekends.

    I was shocked to see that France has 115 hunting accidents in the first 6 months of 2018. Seems like a lot for a country with tighter gun laws than America. I'd be curious to see what safety regulations France lacks that makes this more common. Comparing France to my little state is not equal but that many hunting accidents still seems high.
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  14. #14
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    Most of the trails around here are preserves so no hunting anyway. The one place that has hunting is closed to bikers from October to April.
    It's not one of my favorite trails anyway, so no loss really.
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  15. #15
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    I biked an elk out of the woods on saturday. I do wear an orange vest. the hunter who shoots someone is to blame, but why not just have a litle high visibility stuff on to make your self easier to see. I love to hunt and love to bike, both can be done.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Hunting for something is usually going on year-round. They don't own the forests.
    I ran across a hunter a couple years ago and told him I was sorry if I messed up his hunt and he replied "I don't own the forest, it's open to everyone".

  17. #17
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    Two weeks ago was riding and after the ride a bow hunter showed up and gave me "the look", was apologetic and he said it was alright.

    Was wearing a bright green helmet and jacket and after reading this think I'm wearing the wrong color, question, what are the appropriate colors to wear during hunting season?

  18. #18
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    Blaze orange is the only appropriate color for visibility during hunting season, IMO. Most hunters should have been trained to not shoot at this color.

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    I'd recommend something other than these:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...39708939949420
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrallen View Post
    Hopefully itís a lot worse punishment than that. Around me, You kill a cyclist with your car and you are most likely not even getting a ticket.

    Two friends killed this year on bikes. Nothing happened to either driver.
    I guess you made my point (no disrespect) Why should the fact it's a gun or car make any difference?

    In both cases it's the person behind them responsible. Each is a device or tool that can't act on it's own.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    I guess you made my point (no disrespect) Why should the fact it's a gun or car make any difference?

    In both cases it's the person behind them responsible. Each is a device or tool that can't act on it's own.
    Who is responsible is totally dependent on the situation. In the case of a motorist hitting a bike, it is not a given that the motorist is at fault. Plenty of cyclists ignore rules of the road and fly through stop signs or lights. Plenty of cyclists ignore common sense of being properly illuminated or ride in conditions where visibility is poor (dark or fog). In those cases accidents can happen where the motorist is not legally (nor should they be morally) at fault. Now distracted, careless, negligent or impaired driving is a horse of a totally different color.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damon777 View Post
    Blaze orange is the only appropriate color for visibility during hunting season, IMO. Most hunters should have been trained to not shoot at this color.
    I agree with this. In Wisconsin they now allow high viz pink for hunting wear. I rely on high viz yellow for bow season rides.

  23. #23
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    A bear bell or bell of any kind is also a good idea. Yes, they should be more careful when hunting, but some hunters aren't and hence accidents. I more then likely sound a smell like a rutting buck when riding, so I wear orange.

  24. #24
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    It might piss them off, but if the area is truly a multi use area, and not a hunting preserve, that the managers "allow public access" the rest of the year, a bell on your bars or saddle, goes a long way too.

    We have a few hunting preserves around here. Those places, in season? I avoid during the day, and only ride at night. 5000 lumens is something no deer or turkey, will ever own.

    I get the blaze orange, and don't disagree, but so much outdoor gear has colors way outside of anything found in nature, that I don't buy the only "safe color" is the one hunters use.

    If you're out hunting, hear a stick crack, pivot, aim, see a shadowy figure, seemingly in EXTREME green, yellow, and turquoise, but pull the trigger anyway, you're not just doing it wrong, you ought to be in jail.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    I guess you made my point (no disrespect) Why should the fact it's a gun or car make any difference?

    In both cases it's the person behind them responsible. Each is a device or tool that can't act on it's own.
    No disrespect taken. I agree with you that the person is the responsible party and not the object.

    There are certainly cases where a cyclist can be at fault in the car vs. bike scenario. In the hunter vs. bike case, it's always the hunter's fault to me. I've been shooting since I was a little kid it's always your responsibility where you point your weapon and what happens when you pull the trigger.

    My only point was to pile on and say that while drivers seem to be given the benefit of the doubt around here and hence, don't get punished. There is no way that benefit of the doubt should accrue to the hunter, so they shouldn't get a pass on killing someone.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    I get the blaze orange, and don't disagree, but so much outdoor gear has colors way outside of anything found in nature, that I don't buy the only "safe color" is the one hunters use.

    If you're out hunting, hear a stick crack, pivot, aim, see a shadowy figure, seemingly in EXTREME green, yellow, and turquoise, but pull the trigger anyway, you're not just doing it wrong, you ought to be in jail.
    Whether you buy it or not hunters are only looking for a certain subset of colors that trigger the abort mechanism during the shot process. Why would you want to take chances and not wear a universal warning color.

    As both a hunter and cyclist I worry more about errant shots or pass throughs. If someone is focusing in on making a shot then a "safe color" is by far your best bet at them recognizing you have entered the picture. Honestly, consciously not wearing an approved for your state safety color is negligent.

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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Whether you buy it or not hunters are only looking for a certain subset of colors that trigger the abort mechanism during the shot process. Why would you want to take chances and not wear a universal warning color.

    As both a hunter and cyclist I worry more about errant shots or pass throughs. If someone is focusing in on making a shot then a "safe color" is by far your best bet at them recognizing you have entered the picture. Honestly, consciously not wearing an approved for your state safety color is negligent.

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    Good point on the colors.

    Greens, red, yellows, and blues even if bright versions of them are still found in the wild. Blaze Orange is pretty universally a "no go" in a hunters trained and subconscious mind.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    Good point on the colors.

    Greens, red, yellows, and blues even if bright versions of them are still found in the wild. Blaze Orange is pretty universally a "no go" in a hunters trained and subconscious mind.
    Part of the problem is that people do not understand or consider how the targeting process, whether it is shooting a bow, firearm or throwing a ball, works. At some point, for a couple of breaths, if that long, every thing but the target disappears from your conscious vision. Why would you, as another outdoorsman, consciously deprive yourself of something that will transcend consciousness?

    If you've watched much American football you've seen this in action. Undoubtedly you have seen an NFL quarterback throw a ball directly into a linebacker between him and his receiver. How did he not see that guy right? Well, he is doing something extremely difficult, throwing a ball tens of yards, at a target moving ~18mph that is changing position on multiple axises, into a ~3' window. In order to do this he has to focus exactly where he wants that ball to go and not allow distractions, movement in his periphery, to distract him. Otherwise the throw will not be accurate. Shooting a firearm, or bow, is similar.

    Yes, when hunting the hunter is responsible for any projectile, whether it is a a bullet or a spear from an adiladle. Part of that responsibility is knowing what is behind the target. However at some point, for just a few heartbeats, all attention must be given to making an ethical shot. If I happened to move into that backdrop I would certainly want to be wearing something that screams danger, don't shoot. State approved colors do that. Others, not so much.

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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damon777 View Post
    Blaze orange is the only appropriate color for visibility during hunting season, IMO. Most hunters should have been trained to not shoot at this color.
    Ahh yes, the color of fall leaves...
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  30. #30
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    I didn't say I or anyone should assiduously avoid wearing blaze orange, simply stating that it, itself shouldn't be "required" if you want to live.

    Target identification is utterly key.

    If the sole thing that stops a hunter from blazing away is the sight of someone in full blaze orange, that is one sh*t ass hunter, who is more focused on "gitt'n a critter" than on being a responsible human being.

    Failing light or not. If you do not positively identify your target well in advance of pulling the trigger, it is you, who are at fault, 100%.

    That's not me just spouting my feelings, that's what I was trained, by the NRA, in the 70's when I grew up. Back when they still worried more about hunter training, safety, and conservancy, rather than political grand standing and a black rifle in every pot.

    I appreciate what you're saying but you need to step back and view the larger picture. Your advocating for wiggle room on killing a human being because *you* were too lazy, or too excited, to shoot, rather than take the time to make sure that what you shot was absolutely what you meant to.

    This is not the same as a stray bullet, carrying too far in the wrong direction, which also, come on, you knew the road, neighborhood, MUP, etc, was that way, but you still took the shot? But I digress.

    Safety safety safety, it's 100% on the gun owner to guarantee the safety of their shot, no one else, ever. Trying to give oneself legal wiggle room on that, is a slippery slope, best avoided.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    I didn't say I or anyone should assiduously avoid wearing blaze orange, simply stating that it, itself shouldn't be "required" if you want to live.

    Target identification is utterly key.

    If the sole thing that stops a hunter from blazing away is the sight of someone in full blaze orange, that is one sh*t ass hunter, who is more focused on "gitt'n a critter" than on being a responsible human being.

    Failing light or not. If you do not positively identify your target well in advance of pulling the trigger, it is you, who are at fault, 100%.

    That's not me just spouting my feelings, that's what I was trained, by the NRA, in the 70's when I grew up. Back when they still worried more about hunter training, safety, and conservancy, rather than political grand standing and a black rifle in every pot.

    I appreciate what you're saying but you need to step back and view the larger picture. Your advocating for wiggle room on killing a human being because *you* were too lazy, or too excited, to shoot, rather than take the time to make sure that what you shot was absolutely what you meant to.

    This is not the same as a stray bullet, carrying too far in the wrong direction, which also, come on, you knew the road, neighborhood, MUP, etc, was that way, but you still took the shot? But I digress.

    Safety safety safety, it's 100% on the gun owner to guarantee the safety of their shot, no one else, ever. Trying to give oneself legal wiggle room on that, is a slippery slope, best avoided.
    It is a FOOL that enters the woods during gun hunting season without the appropriate colored clothing. If a person is wearing clothing that cannot be seen and happens to be behind the animal a hunter is shooting at the person is at risk and that is NOT the fault of the hunter. In a wooded area someone 100' behind an animal could be obscured by the trees/brush. The hunter could reasonably "see" that he/she has a clear shot and take it only to miss and hit the person behind either directly or via ricochet.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    It is a FOOL that enters the woods during gun hunting season without the appropriate colored clothing. If a person is wearing clothing that cannot be seen and happens to be behind the animal a hunter is shooting at the person is at risk and that is NOT the fault of the hunter. In a wooded area someone 100' behind an animal could be obscured by the trees/brush. The hunter could reasonably "see" that he/she has a clear shot and take it only to miss and hit the person behind either directly or via ricochet.
    Yep. For exactly this reason, when I used to hunt, my dad and I hunted on private land with the land owner, his two sons and our uncle. Everyone was assigned a field and given the best spot to hunt their area. You were supposed to stay in your area and make your presence known to the person in the field you were entering. After the first time up there, I realized Albert, the man who's land it was, had us all back to back, shooting away from each other. Smart man.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    I didn't say I or anyone should assiduously avoid wearing blaze orange, simply stating that it, itself shouldn't be "required" if you want to live.

    Target identification is utterly key.

    If the sole thing that stops a hunter from blazing away is the sight of someone in full blaze orange, that is one sh*t ass hunter, who is more focused on "gitt'n a critter" than on being a responsible human being.

    Failing light or not. If you do not positively identify your target well in advance of pulling the trigger, it is you, who are at fault, 100%.

    That's not me just spouting my feelings, that's what I was trained, by the NRA, in the 70's when I grew up. Back when they still worried more about hunter training, safety, and conservancy, rather than political grand standing and a black rifle in every pot.

    I appreciate what you're saying but you need to step back and view the larger picture. Your advocating for wiggle room on killing a human being because *you* were too lazy, or too excited, to shoot, rather than take the time to make sure that what you shot was absolutely what you meant to.

    This is not the same as a stray bullet, carrying too far in the wrong direction, which also, come on, you knew the road, neighborhood, MUP, etc, was that way, but you still took the shot? But I digress.

    Safety safety safety, it's 100% on the gun owner to guarantee the safety of their shot, no one else, ever. Trying to give oneself legal wiggle room on that, is a slippery slope, best avoided.
    You obviously do not "appreciate" what I said as you completely ignored what I said. I did not discuss target recognition. I discussed what happens after that has taken place. At least two other people grasped it so it obviously was not that difficult to grasp.

    Nothing is "required" if you want to live. However, consciously choosing to not wear a universal warning color is negligent on your part. Sorry, but if you're mature enough to ride a bike you are mature enough to be responsible for you decision making.

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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    Good point on the colors.

    Greens, red, yellows, and blues even if bright versions of them are still found in the wild. Blaze Orange is pretty universally a "no go" in a hunters trained and subconscious mind.


    -blaze orange in the wild-




    Note how the human looks nothing like a deer even though he's wearing normal clothes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    -blaze orange in the wild-




    Note how the human looks nothing like a deer even though he's wearing normal clothes.
    And in that photo you are completely ignoring one of the main reasons to wear blaze orange. It has a lot less to do with target recognition than you seem to be assigning it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    And in that photo you are completely ignoring one of the main reasons to wear blaze orange. It has a lot less to do with target recognition than you seem to be assigning it...
    Please educate me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Please educate me.
    Go up about 8 posts...

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Shooting a firearm, or bow, is similar.

    Not buying it, you're not shooting at something that's moving @18 mph and changing positions on multiple axises, unless it's a duck.


    Anyway, if I inadvertently moved into the backdrop in the pic I posted I think I'd rather be wearing neon green, or red & white polka dots, or flashing neon lights. Maybe not blaze orange.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Not buying it, you're not shooting at something that's moving @18 mph and changing positions on multiple axises, unless it's a duck.


    Anyway, if I inadvertently moved into the backdrop in the pic I posted I think I'd rather be wearing neon green, or red & white polka dots, or flashing neon lights. Maybe not blaze orange.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Please educate me.
    Take two minutes and watch this. The landscape is far more typical than what you showed.



    My statement of 100' looks to be far too conservative. The video shows people disappear at much closer distances.

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    I have hunted, and shot. Do you shoot at deer that are moving like Walter Peyton?
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Not buying it, you're not shooting at something that's moving @18 mph and changing positions on multiple axises, unless it's a duck.


    Anyway, if I inadvertently moved into the backdrop in the pic I posted I think I'd rather be wearing neon green, or red & white polka dots, or flashing neon lights. Maybe not blaze orange.
    Clearly you have never seen a deer run, jump or change direction.

    Blaze orange was selected after testing for typical conditions. Learn more here: https://www.pressconnects.com/story/...fety/78082326/

    The picture you posted certainly is not typical.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I have hunted, and shot. Do you shoot at deer that are moving like Walter Peyton?
    I have shot at running deer. It is actually a bit more sporting.

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    Mostly I just don't like victim blaming. The same thing happens all the time with cycling accidents involving cars on the road, there are always people saying the equivalent of "well he should have been wearing blaze orange..."
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    I have shot at running deer. It is actually a bit more sporting.

    Is that an ethical shot?
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    Just to clarify:

    If a hunter is wearing camo instead of blaze orange, is it his fault if he gets shot by another hunter, too?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Just to clarify:

    If a hunter is wearing camo instead of blaze orange, is it his fault if he gets shot by another hunter, too?


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    I've actually heard of that happening. I say yes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Ahh yes, the color of fall leaves...
    Don't wear this than.

    But I got pretty good confidence in a standard blaze vest.

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    Most sensible thing to do if you're cavalier enough to ride during big game hunting in the line of fire. Blaze orange hat and blaze orange sport coat.


    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    Take two minutes and watch this. The landscape is far more typical than what you showed.


    My statement of 100' looks to be far too conservative. The video shows people disappear at much closer distances.
    Dash Pt. State Park (Tacoma), Big Sky Montana during Snowboard Season, Duluth Mn, a couple of times of year incl. Xmas.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Is that an ethical shot?
    Sure, if there is a reasonable expectation that you can down it. Why would shooting at a moving animal not be? It's unethical to shoot a bird on the ground (turkey excluded).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Just to clarify:

    If a hunter is wearing camo instead of blaze orange, is it his fault if he gets shot by another hunter, too?


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    Yep

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  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Just to clarify:

    If a hunter is wearing camo instead of blaze orange, is it his fault if he gets shot by another hunter, too?


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    If the area where they were hunting required blaze orange, then yes the hunter in camo bears responsibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I have hunted, and shot. Do you shoot at deer that are moving like Walter Peyton?
    Then you should also know that "neon green" as you sarcastically suggested is actually an approved safety color in most states and that blaze orange would still go against that backdrop. Furthermore, you should also know that the squeezing of the trigger, at least if you are doing it correctly, is not a conscious action.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Just to clarify:

    If a hunter is wearing camo instead of blaze orange, is it his fault if he gets shot by another hunter, too?


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    Biker riding a black bike, dark clothing, no lights or reflectors gets hit crossing an unlit road at night, he shares some, if not all, culpability yes? Same thing, regardless of it is a hunter or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Mostly I just don't like victim blaming. The same thing happens all the time with cycling accidents involving cars on the road, there are always people saying the equivalent of "well he should have been wearing blaze orange..."
    In my mind if you're negligent and something happens as a result of that you are not exempt from culpability, no matter how catastrophic of an event. You'd really hate the SCUBA community by the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    Sure, if there is a reasonable expectation that you can down it. Why would shooting at a moving animal not be? It's unethical to shoot a bird on the ground (turkey excluded).

    It's perfectly ethical to shoot a bird on the ground but it isn't very sporting, same with a moving deer. The most ethical shot is the one that is most likely to ensure a quick kill. Bow hunters pass on a lot of opportunities for that reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    It's perfectly ethical to shoot a bird on the ground but it isn't very sporting, same with a moving deer. The most ethical shot is the one that is most likely to ensure a quick kill. Bow hunters pass on a lot of opportunities for that reason.
    You contradicted yourself here. Which is it, not sporting, not ethical or both?

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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    As a hunter, I fully agree.

    Should be the same punishment and responsibility as an automobile driver that hits a bicylist.



    You mean a traffic ticket because that's what happens in most cases.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Then you should also know that "neon green" as you sarcastically suggested is actually an approved safety color in most states and that blaze orange would still go against that backdrop.


    I wasn't being totally sarcastic, in another thread months ago it was argued that neon green wasn't good enough.


    I'm not sure why this subject always turns into such an argument, it's almost as bad as mentioning clipless pedals. Just saying that half the people out there enjoying the outdoors aren't even aware if it's hunting season or not so IMO the burden of safety falls mostly on the person with the gun.
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  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    It's perfectly ethical to shoot a bird on the ground but it isn't very sporting, same with a moving deer. The most ethical shot is the one that is most likely to ensure a quick kill. Bow hunters pass on a lot of opportunities for that reason.
    We were not talking bow hunting now were we? Even if we were the standard remains the same. The hunter does not take a shot were it is likely to just injure the deer. With a 3,000 fps rifle the odds of mortally hitting a running deer is far greater than with a 350 fps arrow.

    I view "sporting" and "ethical" as synonymous in this context.

    Have you ever done a "deer drive" were a group walks through a field to kick up deer? When a deer gets kicked up it runs with the object of one of the hunting group getting a shot at it. It is a very common and ethical practice, albeit not the safest.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I wasn't being totally sarcastic, in another thread months ago it was argued that neon green wasn't good enough.


    I'm not sure why this subject always turns into such an argument, it's almost as bad as mentioning clipless pedals. Just saying that half the people out there enjoying the outdoors aren't even aware if it's hunting season or not so IMO the burden of safety falls mostly on the person with the gun.
    It's not as good in my opinion, blaze orange is what the majority of people wear but it is approved.

    It is contentious because people would like to assume since they are not hunting they bear no responsibility, not true. They also assume that all hunters are trigger happy and that's why accidents happen, not true.

    Also, ignorance is not a defense/excuse.

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  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    You contradicted yourself here. Which is it, not sporting, not ethical or both?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    It's perfectly ethical to shoot a bird on the ground but it isn't very sporting, same with a moving deer. The most ethical shot is the one that is most likely to ensure a quick kill. Bow hunters pass on a lot of opportunities for that reason.

    Not seeing any contradiction, I thought I was pretty clear.
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  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Also, ignorance is not a defense/excuse.

    Yeah serves them right I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Yeah serves them right I guess.

    Just kidding! Uncle!
    No, but they also bear some responsibility for their actions that potentially shattered the other party's life as well. It's not like the person that pulled the trigger isn't going to suffer due to the other party's ignorance/negligence.

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    Adding fuel to the fire; how about the rider who just posted in the Hunting and Fishing on 2 wheels thread? Field dressed the animal, strapped meat to his BoB and the antlers to his back pack. Now he's riding through the woods displaying the rack at 5'-7' off the ground at a slow riding pace.

    Passing through some low brush? That's scary no matter what color he's wearing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bme107 View Post
    Adding fuel to the fire; how about the rider who just posted in the Hunting and Fishing on 2 wheels thread? Field dressed the animal, strapped meat to his BoB and the antlers to his back pack. Now he's riding through the woods displaying the rack at 5'-7' off the ground at a slow riding pace.

    Passing through some low brush? That's scary no matter what color he's wearing.
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  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    You obviously do not "appreciate" what I said as you completely ignored what I said.
    No, I get it.

    Politely, I'm simply saying, it's the trigger pullers responsibility, end of the day. "They didn't have blaze orange head to toe when I shot them" isn't a legally viable defense.

    Woman got pegged walking her dog last year. Had a blaze orange hat on. Didn't seem to help her all that much.

    I hear what you're saying, and don't disagree, you just seem to operate under the impression that it'll work like a shield, but it won't. Still incumbent upon the shooter to verify the shot....

    This is akin to drivers saying "but they didn't have reflectors on their bike when I hit them". Great, but, you still hit them while you were texting, applying make up, changing the radio station, etc, and they are still dead, and their family still misses them.

    This isn't about blaze orange vs screaming hi viz green. It's about people taking responsibility when playing with dangerous toys, not making it everyone elses responsibility to avoid getting killed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    No, I get it.

    Politely, I'm simply saying, it's the trigger pullers responsibility, end of the day. "They didn't have blaze orange head to toe when I shot them" isn't a legally viable defense.

    Woman got pegged walking her dog last year. Had a blaze orange hat on. Didn't seem to help her all that much.

    I hear what you're saying, and don't disagree, you just seem to operate under the impression that it'll work like a shield, but it won't. Still incumbent upon the shooter to verify the shot....

    This is akin to drivers saying "but they didn't have reflectors on their bike when I hit them". Great, but, you still hit them while you were texting, applying make up, changing the radio station, etc, and they are still dead, and their family still misses them.

    This isn't about blaze orange vs screaming hi viz green. It's about people taking responsibility when playing with dangerous toys, not making it everyone elses responsibility to avoid getting killed.
    And you're still working under the assumption that the person has to be there when the shooter verified the shot. There is a time between verification and actually executing the shot that is devoid of conscious thought. Pulling the trigger is not a conscious action.

    In the situation of a miss or pass through hitting someone not wearing safety colors the hunter is a victim as well. That individual has to live with the repercussions of someone negligently or ignorantly choosing not to utilize proper safety precautions. Just because something bad happens to a person does not exempt that person from any culpability.

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  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    squeezing of the trigger, at least if you are doing it correctly, is not a conscious action.
    Wow. Okay then. That's just terrifying, and I'd love to hear you explain that to a judge and jury.

    I'm stepping off, said my bit. I'll take care of myself, and act appropriately.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bme107 View Post
    Adding fuel to the fire; how about the rider who just posted in the Hunting and Fishing on 2 wheels thread? Field dressed the animal, strapped meat to his BoB and the antlers to his back pack. Now he's riding through the woods displaying the rack at 5'-7' off the ground at a slow riding pace.

    Passing through some low brush? That's scary no matter what color he's wearing.
    I believe I had about 36 miles on in the 4 days I was hunting. 13th bull I have pulled out on a bike. I guess I am going to die!

    Most of you folks make stuff way harder than it truly is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Wow. Okay then. That's just terrifying, and I'd love to hear you explain that to a judge and jury.

    I'm stepping off, said my bit. I'll take care of myself, and act appropriately.
    You obviously don't shoot and have zero knowledge about it so I'll help you out. The simplifird shot process is as follows.

    1. Identify potential target
    2. Verify target
    3. Verify backdrop
    4. Pick impact point
    5. Allow sights to float on impact point
    6. Gradually increase pressure on the trigger for a firearm or tense back muscles with a bow
    7. SURPRISE shot is executed

    Failure to properly execute steps 6 and 7 is actually dangerous as if will cause you to anticipate the shot and flinch/yank causing you to come off target. So yes, actually pulling the trigger is not a conscious decision when it happens. That decision was made at step 3.

    If something enters the back drop after step 4 that does not trigger the danger/panic center of your brain it most likely won't register. Guess what is most likely to trigger that reaction, state approved safety colors.

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    Tucker, your choice of words in the post he quoted was not the best.

    But, good clarification. Yes, target identification, verification, etc should be and IS a very conscious process.


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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Still incumbent upon the shooter to verify the shot....

    This is akin to drivers saying "but they didn't have reflectors on their bike when I hit them". Great, but, you still hit them while you were texting, applying make up, changing the radio station, etc, and they are still dead, and their family still misses them.

    This isn't about blaze orange vs screaming hi viz green. It's about people taking responsibility when playing with dangerous toys, not making it everyone elses responsibility to avoid getting killed.
    A hunter can only verify what they can see. As per the video posted above a person can be hidden behind 25' of woods. If a deer is standing 5' in the woods it is not negligent for the hunter to fire if he/she cannot see the person.

    Your driving analogy does not work as it describes the driver as distracted, at best. Much like a hunter could have an errant shot hit a hidden bystander, a driver could hit a cyclist hidden by dark/fog/rain or some other condition and NOT be held legally responsible. Sure the bystander/cyclist is dead and everyone misses them, but it not the driver/hunter's fault in the scenario I describe. Now if the driver/hunter is distracted or under the influence, that is a totally different story.

    Myself, I have never felt unconscious when squeezing the trigger. I think that description was poorly worded. At any point until the gun fires pressure can be released and the gun not fired. I would agree that once one is floating the site on the impact point the focus is NOT the background. It would take something like say, a bright, unusual color to distract one's eye from the target to the background.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Tucker, your choice of words in the post he quoted was not the best.

    But, good clarification. Yes, target identification, verification, etc should be and IS a very conscious process.


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    It was designed to make a point I figured he would miss/ignore. No one wants to acknowledge/accept all the intricacies involved in an accurate shot. That's where a safety color is of the upmost importance in triggering an abort response.

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    The other thing hunters pay attention to is sound. Everyone should just ride Chris King hubs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    The other thing hunters pay attention to is sound. Everyone should just ride Chris King hubs.
    Nah, I9s or P321s lol. Definitely no SRAM brakes though.

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    Only stopping back in to add what my retired Marines weapons instructor (with a mess of active duty, live fire tours under his belt) had to say about this. I had to ask him, it's really bugging me that someone could hold what sounds like such a reckless idea.

    They are trained, in the military, (for war) to use muscle memory techniques when on patrol in a war zone. That is as close as he'd come to "unconscious" trigger use.

    He then clarified, "dude, you're talking about hunting, NOT WAR, there are no unconscious shots taken by a well trained hunter. It's a deer, not an insurgent, verify your target always, and your background should have been considered long before you ever even got settled into place".

    I shoot, target, skeet, trap, and have sighted in my fair share of rifles over the years. My grouping is just fine, and I always knew I was pulling the bang switch.

    We'll have to agree to disagree.

    Peace.

    And yeah, CK's or I9s are great for hunting season use!
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  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    And yeah, CK's or I9s are great for hunting season use!

    Not so good during rattlesnake hunting season
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Only stopping back in to add what my retired Marines weapons instructor (with a mess of active duty, live fire tours under his belt) had to say about this. I had to ask him, it's really bugging me that someone could hold what sounds like such a reckless idea.

    They are trained, in the military, (for war) to use muscle memory techniques when on patrol in a war zone. That is as close as he'd come to "unconscious" trigger use.

    He then clarified, "dude, you're talking about hunting, NOT WAR, there are no unconscious shots taken by a well trained hunter. It's a deer, not an insurgent, verify your target always, and your background should have been considered long before you ever even got settled into place".

    I shoot, target, skeet, trap, and have sighted in my fair share of rifles over the years. My grouping is just fine, and I always knew I was pulling the bang switch.

    We'll have to agree to disagree.

    Peace.

    And yeah, CK's or I9s are great for hunting season use!
    You're having an issue parsing the English language because he said the exact thing I enumerated out as part of the shot process. Making the decision to pull the trigger is not unconscious. The part from that decision to when the projectile is released is not a conscious movement. You know you are doing it on a certain level but should have no clue as to the exact moment the trigger is going to break. The need for smoothness and lack of anticipation required demand muscle memory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tim208 View Post
    I believe I had about 36 miles on in the 4 days I was hunting. 13th bull I have pulled out on a bike. I guess I am going to die!

    Most of you folks make stuff way harder than it truly is.
    Was just pointing it out to those overly concerned with hunting fashion. And blaze orange only vs hi-viz yellow (or any other obviously contrasting man-made color scheme)

    You essentially put on the bull costume. Canít be sure that a few here wouldnít have shot you.

    Obviously tens of other factors go into the decision how to carry out your hunt and safe return. If anything this thread arms you with the mindset of all the idiots responding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Failure to properly execute steps 6 and 7 is actually dangerous as if will cause you to anticipate the shot and flinch/yank causing you to come off target. So yes, actually pulling the trigger is not a conscious decision when it happens. That decision was made at step 3.
    This takes very little time, I know exactly what you are talking about as far as trigger pull, I shoot myself. Yes, you do not want to anticipate firing and gradually increase tension/pull until it fires.

    But you already made the DECISION to pull the trigger, and you NEVER start pulling the trigger with that decision made unless you are willing to KILL what you are aiming at. Whether it fires at 1.3 seconds or 1.8 is irrelevant, you already decided to shoot at what you aimed at. It's a straw-man argument.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    It is a FOOL that enters the woods during gun hunting season without the appropriate colored clothing. If a person is wearing clothing that cannot be seen and happens to be behind the animal a hunter is shooting at the person is at risk and that is NOT the fault of the hunter. In a wooded area someone 100' behind an animal could be obscured by the trees/brush. The hunter could reasonably "see" that he/she has a clear shot and take it only to miss and hit the person behind either directly or via ricochet.
    What is "gun hunting season"? I just checked Wisconsin for the heck of it (cheesehead?) and it's all over the place, October, December, March, etc. There are all sorts of hunting seasons for all sorts of animals. How are you supposed to know who is going out into the forest with a gun that day?

    If hunting is really as dangerous as you are making it out to be to non-participants, the solution is obvious, it's too dangerous to allow and we just need to trap over-populated animals. Otherwise, if we allow it, we hold the hunter responsible for all of those things except the cases where they could not have reasonably prevented the outcome. It's the hunter's responsibility to know they are near trails traveled by humans, it's the hunter's responsibility to know what they are shooting at, it's the hunter's responsibility to use an appropriate caliber that kills the animal but doesn't go through it like butter and/or not fire when the backstop is known to be populated. You are right, something could just happen that is a one-off that the hunter could not have reasonably anticipated. I really don't care if people hunt or not, as long as they aren't endangering anyone else. I, myself, am not really interested in it, but I have many friends that do and I respect their judgement for shots and trips that come back without any kill. Even when presented with animals that were "likely legal", but couldn't be verified at the range or just didn't present right for the shot.
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  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    What is "gun hunting season"? I just checked Wisconsin for the heck of it (cheesehead?) and it's all over the place, October, December, March, etc. There are all sorts of hunting seasons for all sorts of animals. How are you supposed to know who is going out into the forest with a gun that day?

    If hunting is really as dangerous as you are making it out to be to non-participants, the solution is obvious, it's too dangerous to allow and we just need to trap over-populated animals. Otherwise, if we allow it, we hold the hunter responsible for all of those things except the cases where they could not have reasonably prevented the outcome. It's the hunter's responsibility to know they are near trails traveled by humans, it's the hunter's responsibility to know what they are shooting at, it's the hunter's responsibility to use an appropriate caliber that kills the animal but doesn't go through it like butter and/or not fire when the backstop is known to be populated. You are right, something could just happen that is a one-off that the hunter could not have reasonably anticipated. I really don't care if people hunt or not, as long as they aren't endangering anyone else. I, myself, am not really interested in it, but I have many friends that do and I respect their judgement for shots and trips that come back without any kill. Even when presented with animals that were "likely legal", but couldn't be verified at the range or just didn't present right for the shot.
    People in Wisconsin distinguish between deer hunting with a gun and with a bow. The "gun" season is known here as a 9 day period starting the week before Thanksgiving. It's during this time that 600,000 hunters take to the woods and it is this period that I avoid riding. Sitting in the deer stand on opening morning you will hear shots ring out from miles around. It is a big thing around here. People understand to avoid the woods unless they are hunting and the vast majority are fine with it. With a population sample of 600,000 there will be idiots, but injuries are few (often self inflicted).

    Yes, there are other hunting seasons where guns are used, but nothing with the same density of hunters.

    The idea of trapping deer is not feasible. The 9 day hunt thins the heard by a couple hundred thousand animals and the meat generally goes to one's freezer or donated to food panties. It ads well over a billion $ to the economy. Trapping and disposing of that many animals might cost a billion. (It cost Wisconsin $200+ to dispose of a dead deer hit by a car)

    I feel comfortable riding on public land 266 days out of the year, am cautious for bow hunters for about 90 days and avoid some areas entirely for 9 days. I have no issue with that.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    (It cost Wisconsin $200+ to dispose of a dead deer hit by a car)

    Vultures do it for free around here.
    I brake for stinkbugs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    This takes very little time, I know exactly what you are talking about as far as trigger pull, I shoot myself. Yes, you do not want to anticipate firing and gradually increase tension/pull until it fires.

    But you already made the DECISION to pull the trigger, and you NEVER start pulling the trigger with that decision made unless you are willing to KILL what you are aiming at. Whether it fires at 1.3 seconds or 1.8 is irrelevant, you already decided to shoot at what you aimed at. It's a straw-man argument.
    No, it's a you not reading the entire thread for context issue.

    Also, for edification purposes, a straw man would be taking someone else's words and intentionally misrepresenting their position.

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  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Vultures do it for free around here.
    Wisconsin stopped picking them up a couple years ago do to cost. Someone just sprays them with orange paint...perhaps so they do not get shot.

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    Used to drive from Duluth Mn, to Eau Claire WI to visit my mom. Counted 95 dead deer on one side of the divided highway, one trip (135 miles).

    My wife has hit 2 deer and had one deer jump on the hood of her car. Two of those were in the city limits. I have been hit broadside by a deer in the city limits.

    In Duluth there is an in city Bow hunt during the fall (prescribed areas). Thankfully no guns in the city. Firearm deer season, there is no way I'd be out in those areas, with or without Blaze Orange.

    A fellow that worked with me was out during deer season in Wisconsin, South of Superior. He was walking with his friend and his friend's grandson. A hunter fired up a hill, the bullet deflected off a tree limb and hit his friend in the head--killed him, in front of his grandson. Hunting season is not a time to be out on foot or bike without taking chances.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bumpyride View Post
    Hunting season is not a time to be out on foot or bike without taking chances.

    Then you probably shouldn't drive either. There are a lot of sad hunting accident stories but you're more likely to get killed by a deer just driving along than you are while walking through the woods. Maybe cars should be blaze orange?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    People in Wisconsin distinguish between deer hunting with a gun and with a bow. The "gun" season is known here as a 9 day period starting the week before Thanksgiving. It's during this time that 600,000 hunters take to the woods and it is this period that I avoid riding. Sitting in the deer stand on opening morning you will hear shots ring out from miles around. It is a big thing around here. People understand to avoid the woods unless they are hunting and the vast majority are fine with it. With a population sample of 600,000 there will be idiots, but injuries are few (often self inflicted).

    Yes, there are other hunting seasons where guns are used, but nothing with the same density of hunters.

    The idea of trapping deer is not feasible. The 9 day hunt thins the heard by a couple hundred thousand animals and the meat generally goes to one's freezer or donated to food panties. It ads well over a billion $ to the economy. Trapping and disposing of that many animals might cost a billion. (It cost Wisconsin $200+ to dispose of a dead deer hit by a car)
    Why is it not feasible? Are you saying because it's too effective? (you'd have to dispose of too many deer?). So you could just use less traps? I'm trying to follow this logic here...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    For the guy that negative-repped me for my first post, so angry he forgot a few words in the sentence, something like "how do you know he shooting at", you apply a reasonableness test to it. This is used all over the place in law. Can a hunter reasonably be aware of their surroundings and what is behind an animal. Example, shooting towards a highly-trafficked trail at relatively close range or in a direction where there are buildings not far away. Is it reasonable to assume that there might be people in that direction? Yes, so it would be reckless to shoot in that direction without taking additional precautions or steps to ensure that it was clear or that your round wouldn't go further and endanger people. There are other ways we could apply this, but I would say it's the hunter's responsibility to know where they are and where their rounds are going. There are plenty of places where their rounds would pose no hazard.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Why is it not feasible? Are you saying because it's too effective? (you'd have to dispose of too many deer?). So you could just use less traps? I'm trying to follow this logic here...
    Logic is pretty simple:

    1.) Deer hunting generates $1 billion for the economy (good thing)
    2.) Trapping would probably COST $1 billion (bad thing)
    3.) 200,000 animals are currently taken (in Wisconsin) and used mostly by individuals a the cost of the individual (that is effective). How do traps distinguish between a doe and a buck for population control the way hunting does? Where do you put 200,000 trapped animals? People would not buy butchered venison it in sufficient quantity. Despite being an excellent protein, other than the tenderloins, we typically mix venison with other meats. Some avoid it because they cannot get over thinking they are eating Bambi.

    "Trapping deer is an idea to take out back and shoot" - Kevin O'Leary

    Here's some "logic" for you: Why not just dress all the deer in orange and forbid it to be used elsewhere. That way it would make it way easier for the hunter to pick them out as targets and cars could avoid them. It's a toss up if that idea is more absurd than trapping.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bumpyride View Post
    Used to drive from Duluth Mn, to Eau Claire WI to visit my mom. Counted 95 dead deer on one side of the divided highway, one trip (135 miles).

    My wife has hit 2 deer and had one deer jump on the hood of her car. Two of those were in the city limits. I have been hit broadside by a deer in the city limits.

    In Duluth there is an in city Bow hunt during the fall (prescribed areas). Thankfully no guns in the city. Firearm deer season, there is no way I'd be out in those areas, with or without Blaze Orange.

    A fellow that worked with me was out during deer season in Wisconsin, South of Superior. He was walking with his friend and his friend's grandson. A hunter fired up a hill, the bullet deflected off a tree limb and hit his friend in the head--killed him, in front of his grandson. Hunting season is not a time to be out on foot or bike without taking chances.
    ..and imagine how many vehicle accidents (and deaths) would happen if hunting did not control the population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Then you probably shouldn't drive either. There are a lot of sad hunting accident stories but you're more likely to get killed by a deer just driving along than you are while walking through the woods. Maybe cars should be blaze orange?
    School buses are yellow for a reason. Fire trucks are red or yellow for a reason. They have flashing lights on them for a reason. Most new cars have daytime running lights for a reason. If something is seen it's less likely to to hit, simple as that.

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  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    ... it's the hunter's responsibility to know where they are and where their rounds are going.
    ...and as bicyclists it's up to us to:

    1.) Be as visible as possible to any thing that might hit us.
    2.) Understand the hazards that an area may present and avoid those areas if we think the hazard is too great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Why is it not feasible? Are you saying because it's too effective? (you'd have to dispose of too many deer?). So you could just use less traps? I'm trying to follow this logic here...
    Ever try to manhandle a 200lb deer who's full of adrenaline?

    I have tried.... Will not again. Heck dragging the dead ones is hard enough.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    School buses are yellow for a reason. Fire trucks are red or yellow for a reason. They have flashing lights on them for a reason. Most new cars have daytime running lights for a reason. If something is seen it's less likely to to hit, simple as that.

    Well I didn't know deer were adverse to flashing lights and bright colors, maybe if I deck out my car in neon I'll avoid future collisions with them
    I brake for stinkbugs

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    Ever try to manhandle a 200lb deer who's full of adrenaline?

    I have tried.... Will not again. Heck dragging the dead ones is hard enough.
    You bring the lawn chairs, I will bring the beer and popcorn. It could be fun to watch...

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Well I didn't know deer were adverse to flashing lights and bright colors, maybe if I deck out my car in neon I'll avoid future collisions with them
    nah, just set up a trailing wheel with a CK or I9 freehub.

  99. #99
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    Yeah, for sure deer hate rattlesnakes.
    I brake for stinkbugs

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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    Ever try to manhandle a 200lb deer who's full of adrenaline?

    I have tried.... Will not again. Heck dragging the dead ones is hard enough.
    If it's in a trap, why do you have to man-handle it? Unless you just like the challenge of wrestling animals, and then if that's your thing, I have nothing bad to say about that.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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