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  1. #1
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    Careful where you ride this time of the year.

    Dash Pt. State Park (Tacoma), Big Sky Montana during Snowboard Season, Duluth Mn, a couple of times of year incl. Xmas.

  2. #2
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    No sympathy whatsoever for the hunters. Someone who misidentifies an animal should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. No excuses. I know many responsible hunters and they only take the shot when they are absolutely certain of what they are shooting at and whether they will kill it, which means they go on many hunting trips and never fire a shot or get an animal. This should be the standard and it should be heavily enforced. It's not the responsibility of everyone else to make up for a hunter's impatience or lack of ethics. The responsibility is solely on the person that brings a gun to the forest to kill things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    No sympathy whatsoever for the hunters. Someone who misidentifies an animal should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. No excuses. I know many responsible hunters and they only take the shot when they are absolutely certain of what they are shooting at and whether they will kill it, which means they go on many hunting trips and never fire a shot or get an animal. This should be the standard and it should be heavily enforced. It's not the responsibility of everyone else to make up for a hunter's impatience or lack of ethics. The responsibility is solely on the person that brings a gun to the forest to kill things.
    As a hunter, I fully agree.

    Should be the same punishment and responsibility as an automobile driver that hits a bicylist.

  4. #4
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    Who to blame or how much punishment a hunter receives, doesn't help you much when you're dead. Be careful where you ride. Stay out of areas where big game is being hunted.
    Dash Pt. State Park (Tacoma), Big Sky Montana during Snowboard Season, Duluth Mn, a couple of times of year incl. Xmas.

  5. #5
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    I used to hunt and may well again. I cannot imagine shooting at something until I know EXACTLY what it is.
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  6. #6
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    I caught up with a hunter last year at dusk coming out of a favorite trail, he said that he was glad he saw me go in as I looked alot like a deer at dusk. I had worn a red jacket that looked bright in the day but unfortunately looked brown after the sun went down, now I always wear hunter orange this time of year.
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  7. #7
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    I recommend wearing blaze orange and running a light if you're biking anytime near dusk during hunting season. Dawn and dusk lighting is weird.....

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    As a hunter, I fully agree.

    Should be the same punishment and responsibility as an automobile driver that hits a bicylist.
    Hopefully it’s a lot worse punishment than that. Around me, You kill a cyclist with your car and you are most likely not even getting a ticket.

    Two friends killed this year on bikes. Nothing happened to either driver.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    No sympathy whatsoever for the hunters. Someone who misidentifies an animal should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. No excuses. I know many responsible hunters and they only take the shot when they are absolutely certain of what they are shooting at and whether they will kill it, which means they go on many hunting trips and never fire a shot or get an animal. This should be the standard and it should be heavily enforced. It's not the responsibility of everyone else to make up for a hunter's impatience or lack of ethics. The responsibility is solely on the person that brings a gun to the forest to kill things.
    As a cyclist, hiker, outdoors person I know I would be a fool to enter the woods in anything but bright colors this time of year. Secondly, out of respect for hunters I avoid riding trails near dusk or dawn. While they may not shoot me I could screw up their hunt by scaring off animals. The riding season is much longer than hunting season, so I have no problem sharing the resource.

    The other day I was in a non hunting area and spooked 2 deer. I followed them a few hundred yards down the trail. If I were in a hunting area I could see how a mistake could be made.

    98% (or more) of hunters are very respectful of their weapons, but that does not mean that mistakes cannot be made. A misfired rifle shot does not care about your rights as a cyclist. YOU need to take precautions, I sure do.

  10. #10
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    Hunting for something is usually going on year-round. They don't own the forests.
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  11. #11
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    You chose to take a weapon, into the woods.

    You also chose to drive a 3000 lb weapon, down the road.

    Both of these objects, sitting in place, are virtually incapable of damaging so much as a blade of grass.

    In the hands of a human user, they both become deadly if used without proper respect, attention, and behavior.

    That non gun toting, or non car wrapped humans get slaughtered, be they walking, biking, or simply sitting in their yard, and the human that did it is not charged because "it was an accident/mistake/trick of the light, whatever, is a crime.

    I say this as a vehicle owner, and gun owner, haven't hunted in a while, but used to a fair bit.

    If you can't use your choice of weapon with full and proper care, that's bad enough. But when you take the life of another, you aren't due some special privilege because you did so with a piece of equipment and no outright, direct, malicious intent.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Hunting for something is usually going on year-round. They don't own the forests.
    Neither do cyclists. If I ride in a place where it is likely hunting is going on, it is ultimately my decision of when to ride there and what to wear.

    In Wisconsin the primary hunting season is deer hunting. Bow season is September through December. I avoid dawn and dusk rides on public hunting land out of respect for them.

    Primary gun season lasts 9 days in late November. I stay out of the woods during that time except to ride to my deer stand on private land. I am head to toe orange.

    Every year some 600,000 hunters take to the woods for gun season in Wisconsin. I cannot recall if a cyclist has ever been shot by a hunter in Wisconsin.
    Last edited by BlueCheesehead; 10-15-2018 at 08:43 AM.

  13. #13
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    This is why I don't go in the woods during rifle season around here. Hunters can have at it all they want while I stick to my gravel bike.

    Reading this made me do some research about hunting accidents my state (Vermont) - a state where hunting is hugely popular and access to guns is very easy. Hunting accidents here are nearly non existent (there were none reported in 2013). The state began wide spread (and free) hunting safety programs back in the 70s when hunting accidents were more frequent (20 or so per year). The high school I teach at even does a hunting safety class on some weekends.

    I was shocked to see that France has 115 hunting accidents in the first 6 months of 2018. Seems like a lot for a country with tighter gun laws than America. I'd be curious to see what safety regulations France lacks that makes this more common. Comparing France to my little state is not equal but that many hunting accidents still seems high.
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  14. #14
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    Most of the trails around here are preserves so no hunting anyway. The one place that has hunting is closed to bikers from October to April.
    It's not one of my favorite trails anyway, so no loss really.
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    I biked an elk out of the woods on saturday. I do wear an orange vest. the hunter who shoots someone is to blame, but why not just have a litle high visibility stuff on to make your self easier to see. I love to hunt and love to bike, both can be done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Hunting for something is usually going on year-round. They don't own the forests.
    I ran across a hunter a couple years ago and told him I was sorry if I messed up his hunt and he replied "I don't own the forest, it's open to everyone".

  17. #17
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    Two weeks ago was riding and after the ride a bow hunter showed up and gave me "the look", was apologetic and he said it was alright.

    Was wearing a bright green helmet and jacket and after reading this think I'm wearing the wrong color, question, what are the appropriate colors to wear during hunting season?

  18. #18
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    Blaze orange is the only appropriate color for visibility during hunting season, IMO. Most hunters should have been trained to not shoot at this color.

  19. #19
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    I'd recommend something other than these:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...39708939949420
    Dash Pt. State Park (Tacoma), Big Sky Montana during Snowboard Season, Duluth Mn, a couple of times of year incl. Xmas.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrallen View Post
    Hopefully it’s a lot worse punishment than that. Around me, You kill a cyclist with your car and you are most likely not even getting a ticket.

    Two friends killed this year on bikes. Nothing happened to either driver.
    I guess you made my point (no disrespect) Why should the fact it's a gun or car make any difference?

    In both cases it's the person behind them responsible. Each is a device or tool that can't act on it's own.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    I guess you made my point (no disrespect) Why should the fact it's a gun or car make any difference?

    In both cases it's the person behind them responsible. Each is a device or tool that can't act on it's own.
    Who is responsible is totally dependent on the situation. In the case of a motorist hitting a bike, it is not a given that the motorist is at fault. Plenty of cyclists ignore rules of the road and fly through stop signs or lights. Plenty of cyclists ignore common sense of being properly illuminated or ride in conditions where visibility is poor (dark or fog). In those cases accidents can happen where the motorist is not legally (nor should they be morally) at fault. Now distracted, careless, negligent or impaired driving is a horse of a totally different color.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damon777 View Post
    Blaze orange is the only appropriate color for visibility during hunting season, IMO. Most hunters should have been trained to not shoot at this color.
    I agree with this. In Wisconsin they now allow high viz pink for hunting wear. I rely on high viz yellow for bow season rides.

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    A bear bell or bell of any kind is also a good idea. Yes, they should be more careful when hunting, but some hunters aren't and hence accidents. I more then likely sound a smell like a rutting buck when riding, so I wear orange.

  24. #24
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    It might piss them off, but if the area is truly a multi use area, and not a hunting preserve, that the managers "allow public access" the rest of the year, a bell on your bars or saddle, goes a long way too.

    We have a few hunting preserves around here. Those places, in season? I avoid during the day, and only ride at night. 5000 lumens is something no deer or turkey, will ever own.

    I get the blaze orange, and don't disagree, but so much outdoor gear has colors way outside of anything found in nature, that I don't buy the only "safe color" is the one hunters use.

    If you're out hunting, hear a stick crack, pivot, aim, see a shadowy figure, seemingly in EXTREME green, yellow, and turquoise, but pull the trigger anyway, you're not just doing it wrong, you ought to be in jail.
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    I guess you made my point (no disrespect) Why should the fact it's a gun or car make any difference?

    In both cases it's the person behind them responsible. Each is a device or tool that can't act on it's own.
    No disrespect taken. I agree with you that the person is the responsible party and not the object.

    There are certainly cases where a cyclist can be at fault in the car vs. bike scenario. In the hunter vs. bike case, it's always the hunter's fault to me. I've been shooting since I was a little kid it's always your responsibility where you point your weapon and what happens when you pull the trigger.

    My only point was to pile on and say that while drivers seem to be given the benefit of the doubt around here and hence, don't get punished. There is no way that benefit of the doubt should accrue to the hunter, so they shouldn't get a pass on killing someone.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    I get the blaze orange, and don't disagree, but so much outdoor gear has colors way outside of anything found in nature, that I don't buy the only "safe color" is the one hunters use.

    If you're out hunting, hear a stick crack, pivot, aim, see a shadowy figure, seemingly in EXTREME green, yellow, and turquoise, but pull the trigger anyway, you're not just doing it wrong, you ought to be in jail.
    Whether you buy it or not hunters are only looking for a certain subset of colors that trigger the abort mechanism during the shot process. Why would you want to take chances and not wear a universal warning color.

    As both a hunter and cyclist I worry more about errant shots or pass throughs. If someone is focusing in on making a shot then a "safe color" is by far your best bet at them recognizing you have entered the picture. Honestly, consciously not wearing an approved for your state safety color is negligent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Whether you buy it or not hunters are only looking for a certain subset of colors that trigger the abort mechanism during the shot process. Why would you want to take chances and not wear a universal warning color.

    As both a hunter and cyclist I worry more about errant shots or pass throughs. If someone is focusing in on making a shot then a "safe color" is by far your best bet at them recognizing you have entered the picture. Honestly, consciously not wearing an approved for your state safety color is negligent.

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    Good point on the colors.

    Greens, red, yellows, and blues even if bright versions of them are still found in the wild. Blaze Orange is pretty universally a "no go" in a hunters trained and subconscious mind.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    Good point on the colors.

    Greens, red, yellows, and blues even if bright versions of them are still found in the wild. Blaze Orange is pretty universally a "no go" in a hunters trained and subconscious mind.
    Part of the problem is that people do not understand or consider how the targeting process, whether it is shooting a bow, firearm or throwing a ball, works. At some point, for a couple of breaths, if that long, every thing but the target disappears from your conscious vision. Why would you, as another outdoorsman, consciously deprive yourself of something that will transcend consciousness?

    If you've watched much American football you've seen this in action. Undoubtedly you have seen an NFL quarterback throw a ball directly into a linebacker between him and his receiver. How did he not see that guy right? Well, he is doing something extremely difficult, throwing a ball tens of yards, at a target moving ~18mph that is changing position on multiple axises, into a ~3' window. In order to do this he has to focus exactly where he wants that ball to go and not allow distractions, movement in his periphery, to distract him. Otherwise the throw will not be accurate. Shooting a firearm, or bow, is similar.

    Yes, when hunting the hunter is responsible for any projectile, whether it is a a bullet or a spear from an adiladle. Part of that responsibility is knowing what is behind the target. However at some point, for just a few heartbeats, all attention must be given to making an ethical shot. If I happened to move into that backdrop I would certainly want to be wearing something that screams danger, don't shoot. State approved colors do that. Others, not so much.

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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damon777 View Post
    Blaze orange is the only appropriate color for visibility during hunting season, IMO. Most hunters should have been trained to not shoot at this color.
    Ahh yes, the color of fall leaves...
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  30. #30
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    I didn't say I or anyone should assiduously avoid wearing blaze orange, simply stating that it, itself shouldn't be "required" if you want to live.

    Target identification is utterly key.

    If the sole thing that stops a hunter from blazing away is the sight of someone in full blaze orange, that is one sh*t ass hunter, who is more focused on "gitt'n a critter" than on being a responsible human being.

    Failing light or not. If you do not positively identify your target well in advance of pulling the trigger, it is you, who are at fault, 100%.

    That's not me just spouting my feelings, that's what I was trained, by the NRA, in the 70's when I grew up. Back when they still worried more about hunter training, safety, and conservancy, rather than political grand standing and a black rifle in every pot.

    I appreciate what you're saying but you need to step back and view the larger picture. Your advocating for wiggle room on killing a human being because *you* were too lazy, or too excited, to shoot, rather than take the time to make sure that what you shot was absolutely what you meant to.

    This is not the same as a stray bullet, carrying too far in the wrong direction, which also, come on, you knew the road, neighborhood, MUP, etc, was that way, but you still took the shot? But I digress.

    Safety safety safety, it's 100% on the gun owner to guarantee the safety of their shot, no one else, ever. Trying to give oneself legal wiggle room on that, is a slippery slope, best avoided.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    I didn't say I or anyone should assiduously avoid wearing blaze orange, simply stating that it, itself shouldn't be "required" if you want to live.

    Target identification is utterly key.

    If the sole thing that stops a hunter from blazing away is the sight of someone in full blaze orange, that is one sh*t ass hunter, who is more focused on "gitt'n a critter" than on being a responsible human being.

    Failing light or not. If you do not positively identify your target well in advance of pulling the trigger, it is you, who are at fault, 100%.

    That's not me just spouting my feelings, that's what I was trained, by the NRA, in the 70's when I grew up. Back when they still worried more about hunter training, safety, and conservancy, rather than political grand standing and a black rifle in every pot.

    I appreciate what you're saying but you need to step back and view the larger picture. Your advocating for wiggle room on killing a human being because *you* were too lazy, or too excited, to shoot, rather than take the time to make sure that what you shot was absolutely what you meant to.

    This is not the same as a stray bullet, carrying too far in the wrong direction, which also, come on, you knew the road, neighborhood, MUP, etc, was that way, but you still took the shot? But I digress.

    Safety safety safety, it's 100% on the gun owner to guarantee the safety of their shot, no one else, ever. Trying to give oneself legal wiggle room on that, is a slippery slope, best avoided.
    It is a FOOL that enters the woods during gun hunting season without the appropriate colored clothing. If a person is wearing clothing that cannot be seen and happens to be behind the animal a hunter is shooting at the person is at risk and that is NOT the fault of the hunter. In a wooded area someone 100' behind an animal could be obscured by the trees/brush. The hunter could reasonably "see" that he/she has a clear shot and take it only to miss and hit the person behind either directly or via ricochet.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    It is a FOOL that enters the woods during gun hunting season without the appropriate colored clothing. If a person is wearing clothing that cannot be seen and happens to be behind the animal a hunter is shooting at the person is at risk and that is NOT the fault of the hunter. In a wooded area someone 100' behind an animal could be obscured by the trees/brush. The hunter could reasonably "see" that he/she has a clear shot and take it only to miss and hit the person behind either directly or via ricochet.
    Yep. For exactly this reason, when I used to hunt, my dad and I hunted on private land with the land owner, his two sons and our uncle. Everyone was assigned a field and given the best spot to hunt their area. You were supposed to stay in your area and make your presence known to the person in the field you were entering. After the first time up there, I realized Albert, the man who's land it was, had us all back to back, shooting away from each other. Smart man.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    I didn't say I or anyone should assiduously avoid wearing blaze orange, simply stating that it, itself shouldn't be "required" if you want to live.

    Target identification is utterly key.

    If the sole thing that stops a hunter from blazing away is the sight of someone in full blaze orange, that is one sh*t ass hunter, who is more focused on "gitt'n a critter" than on being a responsible human being.

    Failing light or not. If you do not positively identify your target well in advance of pulling the trigger, it is you, who are at fault, 100%.

    That's not me just spouting my feelings, that's what I was trained, by the NRA, in the 70's when I grew up. Back when they still worried more about hunter training, safety, and conservancy, rather than political grand standing and a black rifle in every pot.

    I appreciate what you're saying but you need to step back and view the larger picture. Your advocating for wiggle room on killing a human being because *you* were too lazy, or too excited, to shoot, rather than take the time to make sure that what you shot was absolutely what you meant to.

    This is not the same as a stray bullet, carrying too far in the wrong direction, which also, come on, you knew the road, neighborhood, MUP, etc, was that way, but you still took the shot? But I digress.

    Safety safety safety, it's 100% on the gun owner to guarantee the safety of their shot, no one else, ever. Trying to give oneself legal wiggle room on that, is a slippery slope, best avoided.
    You obviously do not "appreciate" what I said as you completely ignored what I said. I did not discuss target recognition. I discussed what happens after that has taken place. At least two other people grasped it so it obviously was not that difficult to grasp.

    Nothing is "required" if you want to live. However, consciously choosing to not wear a universal warning color is negligent on your part. Sorry, but if you're mature enough to ride a bike you are mature enough to be responsible for you decision making.

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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    Good point on the colors.

    Greens, red, yellows, and blues even if bright versions of them are still found in the wild. Blaze Orange is pretty universally a "no go" in a hunters trained and subconscious mind.


    -blaze orange in the wild-




    Note how the human looks nothing like a deer even though he's wearing normal clothes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    -blaze orange in the wild-




    Note how the human looks nothing like a deer even though he's wearing normal clothes.
    And in that photo you are completely ignoring one of the main reasons to wear blaze orange. It has a lot less to do with target recognition than you seem to be assigning it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    And in that photo you are completely ignoring one of the main reasons to wear blaze orange. It has a lot less to do with target recognition than you seem to be assigning it...
    Please educate me.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Please educate me.
    Go up about 8 posts...

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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Shooting a firearm, or bow, is similar.

    Not buying it, you're not shooting at something that's moving @18 mph and changing positions on multiple axises, unless it's a duck.


    Anyway, if I inadvertently moved into the backdrop in the pic I posted I think I'd rather be wearing neon green, or red & white polka dots, or flashing neon lights. Maybe not blaze orange.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Not buying it, you're not shooting at something that's moving @18 mph and changing positions on multiple axises, unless it's a duck.


    Anyway, if I inadvertently moved into the backdrop in the pic I posted I think I'd rather be wearing neon green, or red & white polka dots, or flashing neon lights. Maybe not blaze orange.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Please educate me.
    Take two minutes and watch this. The landscape is far more typical than what you showed.



    My statement of 100' looks to be far too conservative. The video shows people disappear at much closer distances.

  41. #41
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    I have hunted, and shot. Do you shoot at deer that are moving like Walter Peyton?
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Not buying it, you're not shooting at something that's moving @18 mph and changing positions on multiple axises, unless it's a duck.


    Anyway, if I inadvertently moved into the backdrop in the pic I posted I think I'd rather be wearing neon green, or red & white polka dots, or flashing neon lights. Maybe not blaze orange.
    Clearly you have never seen a deer run, jump or change direction.

    Blaze orange was selected after testing for typical conditions. Learn more here: https://www.pressconnects.com/story/...fety/78082326/

    The picture you posted certainly is not typical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I have hunted, and shot. Do you shoot at deer that are moving like Walter Peyton?
    I have shot at running deer. It is actually a bit more sporting.

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    Mostly I just don't like victim blaming. The same thing happens all the time with cycling accidents involving cars on the road, there are always people saying the equivalent of "well he should have been wearing blaze orange..."
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    I have shot at running deer. It is actually a bit more sporting.

    Is that an ethical shot?
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    Just to clarify:

    If a hunter is wearing camo instead of blaze orange, is it his fault if he gets shot by another hunter, too?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Just to clarify:

    If a hunter is wearing camo instead of blaze orange, is it his fault if he gets shot by another hunter, too?


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    I've actually heard of that happening. I say yes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Ahh yes, the color of fall leaves...
    Don't wear this than.

    But I got pretty good confidence in a standard blaze vest.

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    Most sensible thing to do if you're cavalier enough to ride during big game hunting in the line of fire. Blaze orange hat and blaze orange sport coat.


    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    Take two minutes and watch this. The landscape is far more typical than what you showed.


    My statement of 100' looks to be far too conservative. The video shows people disappear at much closer distances.
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Is that an ethical shot?
    Sure, if there is a reasonable expectation that you can down it. Why would shooting at a moving animal not be? It's unethical to shoot a bird on the ground (turkey excluded).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Just to clarify:

    If a hunter is wearing camo instead of blaze orange, is it his fault if he gets shot by another hunter, too?


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    Yep

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  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Just to clarify:

    If a hunter is wearing camo instead of blaze orange, is it his fault if he gets shot by another hunter, too?


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    If the area where they were hunting required blaze orange, then yes the hunter in camo bears responsibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I have hunted, and shot. Do you shoot at deer that are moving like Walter Peyton?
    Then you should also know that "neon green" as you sarcastically suggested is actually an approved safety color in most states and that blaze orange would still go against that backdrop. Furthermore, you should also know that the squeezing of the trigger, at least if you are doing it correctly, is not a conscious action.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Just to clarify:

    If a hunter is wearing camo instead of blaze orange, is it his fault if he gets shot by another hunter, too?


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    Biker riding a black bike, dark clothing, no lights or reflectors gets hit crossing an unlit road at night, he shares some, if not all, culpability yes? Same thing, regardless of it is a hunter or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Mostly I just don't like victim blaming. The same thing happens all the time with cycling accidents involving cars on the road, there are always people saying the equivalent of "well he should have been wearing blaze orange..."
    In my mind if you're negligent and something happens as a result of that you are not exempt from culpability, no matter how catastrophic of an event. You'd really hate the SCUBA community by the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    Sure, if there is a reasonable expectation that you can down it. Why would shooting at a moving animal not be? It's unethical to shoot a bird on the ground (turkey excluded).

    It's perfectly ethical to shoot a bird on the ground but it isn't very sporting, same with a moving deer. The most ethical shot is the one that is most likely to ensure a quick kill. Bow hunters pass on a lot of opportunities for that reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    It's perfectly ethical to shoot a bird on the ground but it isn't very sporting, same with a moving deer. The most ethical shot is the one that is most likely to ensure a quick kill. Bow hunters pass on a lot of opportunities for that reason.
    You contradicted yourself here. Which is it, not sporting, not ethical or both?

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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    As a hunter, I fully agree.

    Should be the same punishment and responsibility as an automobile driver that hits a bicylist.



    You mean a traffic ticket because that's what happens in most cases.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Then you should also know that "neon green" as you sarcastically suggested is actually an approved safety color in most states and that blaze orange would still go against that backdrop.


    I wasn't being totally sarcastic, in another thread months ago it was argued that neon green wasn't good enough.


    I'm not sure why this subject always turns into such an argument, it's almost as bad as mentioning clipless pedals. Just saying that half the people out there enjoying the outdoors aren't even aware if it's hunting season or not so IMO the burden of safety falls mostly on the person with the gun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    It's perfectly ethical to shoot a bird on the ground but it isn't very sporting, same with a moving deer. The most ethical shot is the one that is most likely to ensure a quick kill. Bow hunters pass on a lot of opportunities for that reason.
    We were not talking bow hunting now were we? Even if we were the standard remains the same. The hunter does not take a shot were it is likely to just injure the deer. With a 3,000 fps rifle the odds of mortally hitting a running deer is far greater than with a 350 fps arrow.

    I view "sporting" and "ethical" as synonymous in this context.

    Have you ever done a "deer drive" were a group walks through a field to kick up deer? When a deer gets kicked up it runs with the object of one of the hunting group getting a shot at it. It is a very common and ethical practice, albeit not the safest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I wasn't being totally sarcastic, in another thread months ago it was argued that neon green wasn't good enough.


    I'm not sure why this subject always turns into such an argument, it's almost as bad as mentioning clipless pedals. Just saying that half the people out there enjoying the outdoors aren't even aware if it's hunting season or not so IMO the burden of safety falls mostly on the person with the gun.
    It's not as good in my opinion, blaze orange is what the majority of people wear but it is approved.

    It is contentious because people would like to assume since they are not hunting they bear no responsibility, not true. They also assume that all hunters are trigger happy and that's why accidents happen, not true.

    Also, ignorance is not a defense/excuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    You contradicted yourself here. Which is it, not sporting, not ethical or both?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    It's perfectly ethical to shoot a bird on the ground but it isn't very sporting, same with a moving deer. The most ethical shot is the one that is most likely to ensure a quick kill. Bow hunters pass on a lot of opportunities for that reason.

    Not seeing any contradiction, I thought I was pretty clear.
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  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Also, ignorance is not a defense/excuse.

    Yeah serves them right I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Yeah serves them right I guess.

    Just kidding! Uncle!
    No, but they also bear some responsibility for their actions that potentially shattered the other party's life as well. It's not like the person that pulled the trigger isn't going to suffer due to the other party's ignorance/negligence.

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    Adding fuel to the fire; how about the rider who just posted in the Hunting and Fishing on 2 wheels thread? Field dressed the animal, strapped meat to his BoB and the antlers to his back pack. Now he's riding through the woods displaying the rack at 5'-7' off the ground at a slow riding pace.

    Passing through some low brush? That's scary no matter what color he's wearing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bme107 View Post
    Adding fuel to the fire; how about the rider who just posted in the Hunting and Fishing on 2 wheels thread? Field dressed the animal, strapped meat to his BoB and the antlers to his back pack. Now he's riding through the woods displaying the rack at 5'-7' off the ground at a slow riding pace.

    Passing through some low brush? That's scary no matter what color he's wearing.
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  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    You obviously do not "appreciate" what I said as you completely ignored what I said.
    No, I get it.

    Politely, I'm simply saying, it's the trigger pullers responsibility, end of the day. "They didn't have blaze orange head to toe when I shot them" isn't a legally viable defense.

    Woman got pegged walking her dog last year. Had a blaze orange hat on. Didn't seem to help her all that much.

    I hear what you're saying, and don't disagree, you just seem to operate under the impression that it'll work like a shield, but it won't. Still incumbent upon the shooter to verify the shot....

    This is akin to drivers saying "but they didn't have reflectors on their bike when I hit them". Great, but, you still hit them while you were texting, applying make up, changing the radio station, etc, and they are still dead, and their family still misses them.

    This isn't about blaze orange vs screaming hi viz green. It's about people taking responsibility when playing with dangerous toys, not making it everyone elses responsibility to avoid getting killed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    No, I get it.

    Politely, I'm simply saying, it's the trigger pullers responsibility, end of the day. "They didn't have blaze orange head to toe when I shot them" isn't a legally viable defense.

    Woman got pegged walking her dog last year. Had a blaze orange hat on. Didn't seem to help her all that much.

    I hear what you're saying, and don't disagree, you just seem to operate under the impression that it'll work like a shield, but it won't. Still incumbent upon the shooter to verify the shot....

    This is akin to drivers saying "but they didn't have reflectors on their bike when I hit them". Great, but, you still hit them while you were texting, applying make up, changing the radio station, etc, and they are still dead, and their family still misses them.

    This isn't about blaze orange vs screaming hi viz green. It's about people taking responsibility when playing with dangerous toys, not making it everyone elses responsibility to avoid getting killed.
    And you're still working under the assumption that the person has to be there when the shooter verified the shot. There is a time between verification and actually executing the shot that is devoid of conscious thought. Pulling the trigger is not a conscious action.

    In the situation of a miss or pass through hitting someone not wearing safety colors the hunter is a victim as well. That individual has to live with the repercussions of someone negligently or ignorantly choosing not to utilize proper safety precautions. Just because something bad happens to a person does not exempt that person from any culpability.

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  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    squeezing of the trigger, at least if you are doing it correctly, is not a conscious action.
    Wow. Okay then. That's just terrifying, and I'd love to hear you explain that to a judge and jury.

    I'm stepping off, said my bit. I'll take care of myself, and act appropriately.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bme107 View Post
    Adding fuel to the fire; how about the rider who just posted in the Hunting and Fishing on 2 wheels thread? Field dressed the animal, strapped meat to his BoB and the antlers to his back pack. Now he's riding through the woods displaying the rack at 5'-7' off the ground at a slow riding pace.

    Passing through some low brush? That's scary no matter what color he's wearing.
    I believe I had about 36 miles on in the 4 days I was hunting. 13th bull I have pulled out on a bike. I guess I am going to die!

    Most of you folks make stuff way harder than it truly is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Wow. Okay then. That's just terrifying, and I'd love to hear you explain that to a judge and jury.

    I'm stepping off, said my bit. I'll take care of myself, and act appropriately.
    You obviously don't shoot and have zero knowledge about it so I'll help you out. The simplifird shot process is as follows.

    1. Identify potential target
    2. Verify target
    3. Verify backdrop
    4. Pick impact point
    5. Allow sights to float on impact point
    6. Gradually increase pressure on the trigger for a firearm or tense back muscles with a bow
    7. SURPRISE shot is executed

    Failure to properly execute steps 6 and 7 is actually dangerous as if will cause you to anticipate the shot and flinch/yank causing you to come off target. So yes, actually pulling the trigger is not a conscious decision when it happens. That decision was made at step 3.

    If something enters the back drop after step 4 that does not trigger the danger/panic center of your brain it most likely won't register. Guess what is most likely to trigger that reaction, state approved safety colors.

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    Tucker, your choice of words in the post he quoted was not the best.

    But, good clarification. Yes, target identification, verification, etc should be and IS a very conscious process.


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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Still incumbent upon the shooter to verify the shot....

    This is akin to drivers saying "but they didn't have reflectors on their bike when I hit them". Great, but, you still hit them while you were texting, applying make up, changing the radio station, etc, and they are still dead, and their family still misses them.

    This isn't about blaze orange vs screaming hi viz green. It's about people taking responsibility when playing with dangerous toys, not making it everyone elses responsibility to avoid getting killed.
    A hunter can only verify what they can see. As per the video posted above a person can be hidden behind 25' of woods. If a deer is standing 5' in the woods it is not negligent for the hunter to fire if he/she cannot see the person.

    Your driving analogy does not work as it describes the driver as distracted, at best. Much like a hunter could have an errant shot hit a hidden bystander, a driver could hit a cyclist hidden by dark/fog/rain or some other condition and NOT be held legally responsible. Sure the bystander/cyclist is dead and everyone misses them, but it not the driver/hunter's fault in the scenario I describe. Now if the driver/hunter is distracted or under the influence, that is a totally different story.

    Myself, I have never felt unconscious when squeezing the trigger. I think that description was poorly worded. At any point until the gun fires pressure can be released and the gun not fired. I would agree that once one is floating the site on the impact point the focus is NOT the background. It would take something like say, a bright, unusual color to distract one's eye from the target to the background.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Tucker, your choice of words in the post he quoted was not the best.

    But, good clarification. Yes, target identification, verification, etc should be and IS a very conscious process.


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    It was designed to make a point I figured he would miss/ignore. No one wants to acknowledge/accept all the intricacies involved in an accurate shot. That's where a safety color is of the upmost importance in triggering an abort response.

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    The other thing hunters pay attention to is sound. Everyone should just ride Chris King hubs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    The other thing hunters pay attention to is sound. Everyone should just ride Chris King hubs.
    Nah, I9s or P321s lol. Definitely no SRAM brakes though.

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    Only stopping back in to add what my retired Marines weapons instructor (with a mess of active duty, live fire tours under his belt) had to say about this. I had to ask him, it's really bugging me that someone could hold what sounds like such a reckless idea.

    They are trained, in the military, (for war) to use muscle memory techniques when on patrol in a war zone. That is as close as he'd come to "unconscious" trigger use.

    He then clarified, "dude, you're talking about hunting, NOT WAR, there are no unconscious shots taken by a well trained hunter. It's a deer, not an insurgent, verify your target always, and your background should have been considered long before you ever even got settled into place".

    I shoot, target, skeet, trap, and have sighted in my fair share of rifles over the years. My grouping is just fine, and I always knew I was pulling the bang switch.

    We'll have to agree to disagree.

    Peace.

    And yeah, CK's or I9s are great for hunting season use!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    And yeah, CK's or I9s are great for hunting season use!

    Not so good during rattlesnake hunting season
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Only stopping back in to add what my retired Marines weapons instructor (with a mess of active duty, live fire tours under his belt) had to say about this. I had to ask him, it's really bugging me that someone could hold what sounds like such a reckless idea.

    They are trained, in the military, (for war) to use muscle memory techniques when on patrol in a war zone. That is as close as he'd come to "unconscious" trigger use.

    He then clarified, "dude, you're talking about hunting, NOT WAR, there are no unconscious shots taken by a well trained hunter. It's a deer, not an insurgent, verify your target always, and your background should have been considered long before you ever even got settled into place".

    I shoot, target, skeet, trap, and have sighted in my fair share of rifles over the years. My grouping is just fine, and I always knew I was pulling the bang switch.

    We'll have to agree to disagree.

    Peace.

    And yeah, CK's or I9s are great for hunting season use!
    You're having an issue parsing the English language because he said the exact thing I enumerated out as part of the shot process. Making the decision to pull the trigger is not unconscious. The part from that decision to when the projectile is released is not a conscious movement. You know you are doing it on a certain level but should have no clue as to the exact moment the trigger is going to break. The need for smoothness and lack of anticipation required demand muscle memory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tim208 View Post
    I believe I had about 36 miles on in the 4 days I was hunting. 13th bull I have pulled out on a bike. I guess I am going to die!

    Most of you folks make stuff way harder than it truly is.
    Was just pointing it out to those overly concerned with hunting fashion. And blaze orange only vs hi-viz yellow (or any other obviously contrasting man-made color scheme)

    You essentially put on the bull costume. Can’t be sure that a few here wouldn’t have shot you.

    Obviously tens of other factors go into the decision how to carry out your hunt and safe return. If anything this thread arms you with the mindset of all the idiots responding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Failure to properly execute steps 6 and 7 is actually dangerous as if will cause you to anticipate the shot and flinch/yank causing you to come off target. So yes, actually pulling the trigger is not a conscious decision when it happens. That decision was made at step 3.
    This takes very little time, I know exactly what you are talking about as far as trigger pull, I shoot myself. Yes, you do not want to anticipate firing and gradually increase tension/pull until it fires.

    But you already made the DECISION to pull the trigger, and you NEVER start pulling the trigger with that decision made unless you are willing to KILL what you are aiming at. Whether it fires at 1.3 seconds or 1.8 is irrelevant, you already decided to shoot at what you aimed at. It's a straw-man argument.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    It is a FOOL that enters the woods during gun hunting season without the appropriate colored clothing. If a person is wearing clothing that cannot be seen and happens to be behind the animal a hunter is shooting at the person is at risk and that is NOT the fault of the hunter. In a wooded area someone 100' behind an animal could be obscured by the trees/brush. The hunter could reasonably "see" that he/she has a clear shot and take it only to miss and hit the person behind either directly or via ricochet.
    What is "gun hunting season"? I just checked Wisconsin for the heck of it (cheesehead?) and it's all over the place, October, December, March, etc. There are all sorts of hunting seasons for all sorts of animals. How are you supposed to know who is going out into the forest with a gun that day?

    If hunting is really as dangerous as you are making it out to be to non-participants, the solution is obvious, it's too dangerous to allow and we just need to trap over-populated animals. Otherwise, if we allow it, we hold the hunter responsible for all of those things except the cases where they could not have reasonably prevented the outcome. It's the hunter's responsibility to know they are near trails traveled by humans, it's the hunter's responsibility to know what they are shooting at, it's the hunter's responsibility to use an appropriate caliber that kills the animal but doesn't go through it like butter and/or not fire when the backstop is known to be populated. You are right, something could just happen that is a one-off that the hunter could not have reasonably anticipated. I really don't care if people hunt or not, as long as they aren't endangering anyone else. I, myself, am not really interested in it, but I have many friends that do and I respect their judgement for shots and trips that come back without any kill. Even when presented with animals that were "likely legal", but couldn't be verified at the range or just didn't present right for the shot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    What is "gun hunting season"? I just checked Wisconsin for the heck of it (cheesehead?) and it's all over the place, October, December, March, etc. There are all sorts of hunting seasons for all sorts of animals. How are you supposed to know who is going out into the forest with a gun that day?

    If hunting is really as dangerous as you are making it out to be to non-participants, the solution is obvious, it's too dangerous to allow and we just need to trap over-populated animals. Otherwise, if we allow it, we hold the hunter responsible for all of those things except the cases where they could not have reasonably prevented the outcome. It's the hunter's responsibility to know they are near trails traveled by humans, it's the hunter's responsibility to know what they are shooting at, it's the hunter's responsibility to use an appropriate caliber that kills the animal but doesn't go through it like butter and/or not fire when the backstop is known to be populated. You are right, something could just happen that is a one-off that the hunter could not have reasonably anticipated. I really don't care if people hunt or not, as long as they aren't endangering anyone else. I, myself, am not really interested in it, but I have many friends that do and I respect their judgement for shots and trips that come back without any kill. Even when presented with animals that were "likely legal", but couldn't be verified at the range or just didn't present right for the shot.
    People in Wisconsin distinguish between deer hunting with a gun and with a bow. The "gun" season is known here as a 9 day period starting the week before Thanksgiving. It's during this time that 600,000 hunters take to the woods and it is this period that I avoid riding. Sitting in the deer stand on opening morning you will hear shots ring out from miles around. It is a big thing around here. People understand to avoid the woods unless they are hunting and the vast majority are fine with it. With a population sample of 600,000 there will be idiots, but injuries are few (often self inflicted).

    Yes, there are other hunting seasons where guns are used, but nothing with the same density of hunters.

    The idea of trapping deer is not feasible. The 9 day hunt thins the heard by a couple hundred thousand animals and the meat generally goes to one's freezer or donated to food panties. It ads well over a billion $ to the economy. Trapping and disposing of that many animals might cost a billion. (It cost Wisconsin $200+ to dispose of a dead deer hit by a car)

    I feel comfortable riding on public land 266 days out of the year, am cautious for bow hunters for about 90 days and avoid some areas entirely for 9 days. I have no issue with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    (It cost Wisconsin $200+ to dispose of a dead deer hit by a car)

    Vultures do it for free around here.
    I brake for stinkbugs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    This takes very little time, I know exactly what you are talking about as far as trigger pull, I shoot myself. Yes, you do not want to anticipate firing and gradually increase tension/pull until it fires.

    But you already made the DECISION to pull the trigger, and you NEVER start pulling the trigger with that decision made unless you are willing to KILL what you are aiming at. Whether it fires at 1.3 seconds or 1.8 is irrelevant, you already decided to shoot at what you aimed at. It's a straw-man argument.
    No, it's a you not reading the entire thread for context issue.

    Also, for edification purposes, a straw man would be taking someone else's words and intentionally misrepresenting their position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Vultures do it for free around here.
    Wisconsin stopped picking them up a couple years ago do to cost. Someone just sprays them with orange paint...perhaps so they do not get shot.

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    Used to drive from Duluth Mn, to Eau Claire WI to visit my mom. Counted 95 dead deer on one side of the divided highway, one trip (135 miles).

    My wife has hit 2 deer and had one deer jump on the hood of her car. Two of those were in the city limits. I have been hit broadside by a deer in the city limits.

    In Duluth there is an in city Bow hunt during the fall (prescribed areas). Thankfully no guns in the city. Firearm deer season, there is no way I'd be out in those areas, with or without Blaze Orange.

    A fellow that worked with me was out during deer season in Wisconsin, South of Superior. He was walking with his friend and his friend's grandson. A hunter fired up a hill, the bullet deflected off a tree limb and hit his friend in the head--killed him, in front of his grandson. Hunting season is not a time to be out on foot or bike without taking chances.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bumpyride View Post
    Hunting season is not a time to be out on foot or bike without taking chances.

    Then you probably shouldn't drive either. There are a lot of sad hunting accident stories but you're more likely to get killed by a deer just driving along than you are while walking through the woods. Maybe cars should be blaze orange?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    People in Wisconsin distinguish between deer hunting with a gun and with a bow. The "gun" season is known here as a 9 day period starting the week before Thanksgiving. It's during this time that 600,000 hunters take to the woods and it is this period that I avoid riding. Sitting in the deer stand on opening morning you will hear shots ring out from miles around. It is a big thing around here. People understand to avoid the woods unless they are hunting and the vast majority are fine with it. With a population sample of 600,000 there will be idiots, but injuries are few (often self inflicted).

    Yes, there are other hunting seasons where guns are used, but nothing with the same density of hunters.

    The idea of trapping deer is not feasible. The 9 day hunt thins the heard by a couple hundred thousand animals and the meat generally goes to one's freezer or donated to food panties. It ads well over a billion $ to the economy. Trapping and disposing of that many animals might cost a billion. (It cost Wisconsin $200+ to dispose of a dead deer hit by a car)
    Why is it not feasible? Are you saying because it's too effective? (you'd have to dispose of too many deer?). So you could just use less traps? I'm trying to follow this logic here...
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    For the guy that negative-repped me for my first post, so angry he forgot a few words in the sentence, something like "how do you know he shooting at", you apply a reasonableness test to it. This is used all over the place in law. Can a hunter reasonably be aware of their surroundings and what is behind an animal. Example, shooting towards a highly-trafficked trail at relatively close range or in a direction where there are buildings not far away. Is it reasonable to assume that there might be people in that direction? Yes, so it would be reckless to shoot in that direction without taking additional precautions or steps to ensure that it was clear or that your round wouldn't go further and endanger people. There are other ways we could apply this, but I would say it's the hunter's responsibility to know where they are and where their rounds are going. There are plenty of places where their rounds would pose no hazard.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Why is it not feasible? Are you saying because it's too effective? (you'd have to dispose of too many deer?). So you could just use less traps? I'm trying to follow this logic here...
    Logic is pretty simple:

    1.) Deer hunting generates $1 billion for the economy (good thing)
    2.) Trapping would probably COST $1 billion (bad thing)
    3.) 200,000 animals are currently taken (in Wisconsin) and used mostly by individuals a the cost of the individual (that is effective). How do traps distinguish between a doe and a buck for population control the way hunting does? Where do you put 200,000 trapped animals? People would not buy butchered venison it in sufficient quantity. Despite being an excellent protein, other than the tenderloins, we typically mix venison with other meats. Some avoid it because they cannot get over thinking they are eating Bambi.

    "Trapping deer is an idea to take out back and shoot" - Kevin O'Leary

    Here's some "logic" for you: Why not just dress all the deer in orange and forbid it to be used elsewhere. That way it would make it way easier for the hunter to pick them out as targets and cars could avoid them. It's a toss up if that idea is more absurd than trapping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bumpyride View Post
    Used to drive from Duluth Mn, to Eau Claire WI to visit my mom. Counted 95 dead deer on one side of the divided highway, one trip (135 miles).

    My wife has hit 2 deer and had one deer jump on the hood of her car. Two of those were in the city limits. I have been hit broadside by a deer in the city limits.

    In Duluth there is an in city Bow hunt during the fall (prescribed areas). Thankfully no guns in the city. Firearm deer season, there is no way I'd be out in those areas, with or without Blaze Orange.

    A fellow that worked with me was out during deer season in Wisconsin, South of Superior. He was walking with his friend and his friend's grandson. A hunter fired up a hill, the bullet deflected off a tree limb and hit his friend in the head--killed him, in front of his grandson. Hunting season is not a time to be out on foot or bike without taking chances.
    ..and imagine how many vehicle accidents (and deaths) would happen if hunting did not control the population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Then you probably shouldn't drive either. There are a lot of sad hunting accident stories but you're more likely to get killed by a deer just driving along than you are while walking through the woods. Maybe cars should be blaze orange?
    School buses are yellow for a reason. Fire trucks are red or yellow for a reason. They have flashing lights on them for a reason. Most new cars have daytime running lights for a reason. If something is seen it's less likely to to hit, simple as that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    ... it's the hunter's responsibility to know where they are and where their rounds are going.
    ...and as bicyclists it's up to us to:

    1.) Be as visible as possible to any thing that might hit us.
    2.) Understand the hazards that an area may present and avoid those areas if we think the hazard is too great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Why is it not feasible? Are you saying because it's too effective? (you'd have to dispose of too many deer?). So you could just use less traps? I'm trying to follow this logic here...
    Ever try to manhandle a 200lb deer who's full of adrenaline?

    I have tried.... Will not again. Heck dragging the dead ones is hard enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    School buses are yellow for a reason. Fire trucks are red or yellow for a reason. They have flashing lights on them for a reason. Most new cars have daytime running lights for a reason. If something is seen it's less likely to to hit, simple as that.

    Well I didn't know deer were adverse to flashing lights and bright colors, maybe if I deck out my car in neon I'll avoid future collisions with them
    I brake for stinkbugs

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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    Ever try to manhandle a 200lb deer who's full of adrenaline?

    I have tried.... Will not again. Heck dragging the dead ones is hard enough.
    You bring the lawn chairs, I will bring the beer and popcorn. It could be fun to watch...

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Well I didn't know deer were adverse to flashing lights and bright colors, maybe if I deck out my car in neon I'll avoid future collisions with them
    nah, just set up a trailing wheel with a CK or I9 freehub.

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    Yeah, for sure deer hate rattlesnakes.
    I brake for stinkbugs

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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    Ever try to manhandle a 200lb deer who's full of adrenaline?

    I have tried.... Will not again. Heck dragging the dead ones is hard enough.
    If it's in a trap, why do you have to man-handle it? Unless you just like the challenge of wrestling animals, and then if that's your thing, I have nothing bad to say about that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    For the guy that negative-repped me for my first post, so angry he forgot a few words in the sentence, something like "how do you know he shooting at", you apply a reasonableness test to it. This is used all over the place in law. Can a hunter reasonably be aware of their surroundings and what is behind an animal. Example, shooting towards a highly-trafficked trail at relatively close range or in a direction where there are buildings not far away. Is it reasonable to assume that there might be people in that direction? Yes, so it would be reckless to shoot in that direction without taking additional precautions or steps to ensure that it was clear or that your round wouldn't go further and endanger people. There are other ways we could apply this, but I would say it's the hunter's responsibility to know where they are and where their rounds are going. There are plenty of places where their rounds would pose no hazard.
    That's merely an attempt to deflect responsibility from one's self. It's basically saying "I shouldn't be responsible for taking proper safety precautions. It's someone else's job". No, it is both parties job. Yes, the two scenarios you mentioned are valid. However, not every encounter takes place within those parameters. Why would a person consciously reduce their own safety margin and in this case foist it onto someone else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    This is why I don't go in the woods during rifle season around here. Hunters can have at it all they want while I stick to my gravel bike.

    Reading this made me do some research about hunting accidents my state (Vermont) - a state where hunting is hugely popular and access to guns is very easy. Hunting accidents here are nearly non existent (there were none reported in 2013). The state began wide spread (and free) hunting safety programs back in the 70s when hunting accidents were more frequent (20 or so per year). The high school I teach at even does a hunting safety class on some weekends.

    I was shocked to see that France has 115 hunting accidents in the first 6 months of 2018. Seems like a lot for a country with tighter gun laws than America. I'd be curious to see what safety regulations France lacks that makes this more common. Comparing France to my little state is not equal but that many hunting accidents still seems high.
    Are they more trigger happy or less careful over there I wonder? Why so many more gun accidents?
    It seems maybe it's just a different mentality (kind of like driving overseas, lane lines mean nothing).

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    ..and imagine how many vehicle accidents (and deaths) would happen if hunting did not control the population.
    No arguments here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bumpyride View Post
    No arguments here.
    By the way, see what you started. What should have been a perfectly good public safety announcement turned into a $hit show.

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    In a Twist...

    Sometimes an alleged negligent hunter does a mom a favor...

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...box=1539772376

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    By the way, see what you started. What should have been a perfectly good public safety announcement turned into a $hit show.
    Was supposed to be a public service announcement and turned into a testosterone infused clown show.

    Couldn't figure out how to shut it down. Suggestions?

    "Dead Right", is not how I plan to end the hunting season. I'm not in any hunting areas anyway, at the current moment. Will have to check when I hit Montana.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    That's merely an attempt to deflect responsibility from one's self. It's basically saying "I shouldn't be responsible for taking proper safety precautions. It's someone else's job". No, it is both parties job. Yes, the two scenarios you mentioned are valid. However, not every encounter takes place within those parameters. Why would a person consciously reduce their own safety margin and in this case foist it onto someone else?

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    Explain to me, specifically in that post, where I said that a user should have no responsibilities? It IS someone's job that creates a hazard to mitigate that hazard. I did NOT say that there was no responsibility on the other side, but I also said that you apply the reasonableness test to it, if the hunter can reasonably know that humans are likely in their field of fire, they need to take steps to mitigate that, not the people living or walking in front of them. They aren't the ones causing the hazard, the person putting bullets downrange is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Explain to me, specifically in that post, where I said that a user should have no responsibilities? It IS someone's job that creates a hazard to mitigate that hazard. I did NOT say that there was no responsibility on the other side, but I also said that you apply the reasonableness test to it, if the hunter can reasonably know that humans are likely in their field of fire, they need to take steps to mitigate that, not the people living or walking in front of them. They aren't the ones causing the hazard, the person putting bullets downrange is.
    I'm glad we can agree that the person creating the hazard is responsible. A person not wearing perscribed or recommended safety gear is creating a needless hazard. Both parties are responsible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    They aren't the ones causing the hazard, the person putting bullets downrange is.
    As a hunter I am not a hazard to people I can see, or know are down range. I COULD be a deadly hazard to those I cannot see or know are down range. If you make yourself seen/known to me you remove the hazard.

    I view other hunters in the same vein and do my best to be seen/known. Within our hunting party we will text each other when we get out of our stands and walk around.

    Ultimately I am responsible for my own safety. I do the best I can and trust the other people around me are doing the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    As a hunter I am not a hazard to people I can see, or know are down range. I COULD be a deadly hazard to those I cannot see or know are down range. If you make yourself seen/known to me you remove the hazard.

    I view other hunters in the same vein and do my best to be seen/known. Within our hunting party we will text each other when we get out of our stands and walk around.

    Ultimately I am responsible for my own safety. I do the best I can and trust the other people around me are doing the same.
    Exactly.

    Would it be fair to say that part of ensuring your safety is to do everything within your power to not be a hazard? I know I don't want to live with the repercussions, technically my fault or not of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Exactly.

    Would it be fair to say that part of ensuring your safety is to do everything within your power to not be a hazard? I know I don't want to live with the repercussions, technically my fault or not of that.

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    Absolutely. I have dealt with guilt of someone on my boat getting injured with me at the helm. I cannot imagine the guilt of killing someone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Exactly.

    Would it be fair to say that part of ensuring your safety is to do everything within your power to not be a hazard?
    Of course not, it goes back to reasonableness. If you did everything you could, you'd never leave the house.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Of course not, it goes back to reasonableness. If you did everything you could, you'd never leave the house.
    Nice reductio ad absurdium, wearing prescribed safety colors is a long cry from being afraid to leave the house. There is this thing called general context, you should investigate it.

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    dudes give it up, you are both just saying the same thing over and over. we get it.

    if you are in an area that has hunting, dress accordingly, if you are pulling the trigger, know exactly where the bullets is going to strike. pretty easy.

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    reductio ad absurdium

    This thread wasn't completely worthless. Learned a new phrase. Been looking for one that describes some of the political diatribes that descend into reductio ad absurdium.

    Thanks, Tucker
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    This is a good popcorn thread but what has it got to do with Fat bikes?
    What a perfect waste of time

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    shark

    go to youtube and search European hog hunting. Holy shit those dudes are scary.

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    I wear one of these and have been safe thus far
    https://youtu.be/zOqyFnnwNDw
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    Some of the hunters on here sound like the petrolheads who think they can justify speeding in a crowded residential area because they're "skilful" and anyway that kid didn't have a crash helmet or reflectors on his bike when I hit him with my 2 ton vehicle so it's his fault and look at the scratches on my car!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Some of the hunters on here sound like the petrolheads who think they can justify speeding in a crowded residential area because they're "skilful" and anyway that kid didn't have a crash helmet or reflectors on his bike when I hit him with my 2 ton vehicle so it's his fault and look at the scratches on my car!
    If that's how you take "reduce your risk of being hit by being seen" so be it. No one is absolving hunters or drivers of responsibility for reckless, careless or even distracted use of a gun or vehicle.

    Understanding that we share the roads and woods, as cyclists we cannot control the hunter or driver side of the risk equation. How we cyclists choose to reduce the risk equation on our side is up to us.
    Last edited by BlueCheesehead; 10-18-2018 at 10:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Some of the hunters on here sound like the petrolheads who think they can justify speeding in a crowded residential area because they're "skilful" and anyway that kid didn't have a crash helmet or reflectors on his bike when I hit him with my 2 ton vehicle so it's his fault and look at the scratches on my car!
    I don't see any of that here in this thread.

    I do see some very ethical hunters (myself included) who genuinely care and are trying to contribute and help.

  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    I don't see any of that here in this thread.

    I do see some very ethical hunters (myself included) who genuinely care and are trying to contribute and help.
    Presumably an ethical hunter would never discharge a gun in the direction of a path/trail/road or habitation and would have first assessed the terrain to make sure there wasn't one. That would eliminate the chance of hitting a random trail user.

    No hunter should assume that every other user of the countryside is aware they are in a hunting area, because odds are some aren't aware. The aware ones either won't be there or likely be wearing bright colours.

    There's lots of reasons that a mistake can be made, but reasons are never an excuse when you are in charge of a weapon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bumpyride View Post
    Stay out of areas where big game is being hunted.
    Nope. That's not practical in many places here in Montana. What, we're just supposed to not ride in the backcountry from September through November because of the potential that some jackass will shoot before he knows exactly what he is shooting at? And we don't assume the risk of being shot by riding mountain bikes (or hiking or birding or getting lit) in areas where hunting is allowed.

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    During my ride today, all no hunting areas .... But I still wear visible colors.
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  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Presumably an ethical hunter would never discharge a gun in the direction of a path/trail/road or habitation and would have first assessed the terrain to make sure there wasn't one. That would eliminate the chance of hitting a random trail user.

    No hunter should assume that every other user of the countryside is aware they are in a hunting area, because odds are some aren't aware. The aware ones either won't be there or likely be wearing bright colours.

    There's lots of reasons that a mistake can be made, but reasons are never an excuse when you are in charge of a weapon.
    You are making some wild, baseless presumptions. The last one is especially egregious with where you attempt to lay a blanket level of blame.

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    Last edited by tuckerjt07; 10-18-2018 at 08:22 PM.

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    And here I thought it was a good idea to remind people to be careful during hunting season. So aside from trying to assign blame, just be safe and aware.
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    I don't hunt anymore out of extremely selfish reasons (I'm a night dweller), but I was raised with the expectation that I could identify the gender of the animal I was aiming at before I pulled the trigger.

    I was a decent shot but I always did catch and release aiming if I was even a little bit unsure.

    There were a lot of entitled hunters I encountered back then (the kind that'll slash your tires while you're away, at worst), so I don't expect anything's changed. For those feeling suddenly insulted, consider words of perspective that might leave you feeling a little less slighted: does the shoe fit?
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  128. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    expectation that I could identify the gender of the animal I was aiming at before I pulled the trigger.
    Simple yet exquisitely poignant point.
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  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Presumably an ethical hunter would never discharge a gun in the direction of a path/trail/road or habitation and would have first assessed the terrain to make sure there wasn't one. That would eliminate the chance of hitting a random trail user.

    No hunter should assume that every other user of the countryside is aware they are in a hunting area, because odds are some aren't aware. The aware ones either won't be there or likely be wearing bright colours.

    There's lots of reasons that a mistake can be made, but reasons are never an excuse when you are in charge of a weapon.
    Without arguing what you said, what the hunter SHOULD do is irrelevant to minimizing risk because as cyclist or hiker you cannot control that. All you can control is how you dress and where/when you ride this time of year. Control what you can control, hope (but don't assume) the hunters do what they should do (most do) and proceed accordingly.

    By the title of this thread the intent of OP appears to be to make those that read it more aware that hunting is, or could be, going on. Kudos to him for making more people aware. For those already aware, a reminder to both cyclists and hunters is a good thing. Hopefully that will make people more safe.

  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    Simple yet exquisitely poignant point.

  131. #131
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  132. #132
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    [QUOTE=Drew Diller;13854748]I was raised with the expectation that I could identify the gender of the animal I was aiming at before I pulled the trigger..../QUOTE]

    How times have changed. At college freshman orientation they now stress that one must ask which gender one identifies with and not just go by looks.

  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    How times have changed. At college freshman orientation they now stress that one must ask which gender one identifies with and not just go by looks.
    A few things I find mildly unpleasant about this comparison. One, we're talking about shooting animals deliberately while attempting to avoid people. Two, I'm pretty sure animals don't talk experience gender dysphoria, and if they could, that means they'd be communicative and sapient, and if they were all of those things I would not be shooting them.

    This is just about full on thread derailment here, my comment on animal gender was about visual acuity, target identification, and strict responsibility over a deadly weapon. Notice I'm not trying to rip you a new one here like an SJW would do, it's just, when I've made jokes about human trans issues in certain company, I've been told in no uncertain terms that I'm un-funny. Don't make my mistake, not worth having a laugh turn into an argument.
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  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    Neither do cyclists. If I ride in a place where it is likely hunting is going on, it is ultimately my decision of when to ride there and what to wear.

    In Wisconsin the primary hunting season is deer hunting. Bow season is September through December. I avoid dawn and dusk rides on public hunting land out of respect for them.

    Primary gun season lasts 9 days in late November. I stay out of the woods during that time except to ride to my deer stand on private land. I am head to toe orange.

    Every year some 600,000 hunters take to the woods for gun season in Wisconsin. I cannot recall if a cyclist has ever been shot by a hunter in Wisconsin.
    Real talk. Most casualties in Wisconsin are from hunters having massive cheese curd heart attacks climbing into their tree stands. It's an epidemic, public service announcements should be made to put the Blatz down and to step away from the deep fryers. Eat kale and ride bikes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    A few things I find mildly unpleasant about this comparison. One, we're talking about shooting animals deliberately while attempting to avoid people. Two, I'm pretty sure animals don't talk experience gender dysphoria, and if they could, that means they'd be communicative and sapient, and if they were all of those things I would not be shooting them.

    This is just about full on thread derailment here, my comment on animal gender was about visual acuity, target identification, and strict responsibility over a deadly weapon. Notice I'm not trying to rip you a new one here like an SJW would do, it's just, when I've made jokes about human trans issues in certain company, I've been told in no uncertain terms that I'm un-funny. Don't make my mistake, not worth having a laugh turn into an argument.
    This thread was derailed long ago. For years I used gender and sex synonymously too.

    I'm Polish and grew up in the 60's & 70's, being able to laugh and not take offense at jokes was learned early. If people cannot deal with a little cultural humor I am reminded of Sgt Hulka "Lighten up Francis".

    "Attempting to avoid people"? The context of that was as if a successful "attempt" was simply a nice outcome. I "attempt" to make a free throw. Kickers "attempt" a field goal. Hunters are far more successful than a mere "attempt". Do not kid yourself, not shooting someone is the TOP priority. Only a psychopath would trade a human life for a trophy buck.

    Kudos to you for being able to see the genitals on a deer from distance. While antlered deer are almost always bucks (yes, there are rare exceptions), antlerless deer could be either sex.

    More important than the sex of the animal is aiming right behind and under the front shoulder. For those that seem to think that hunters are just willy nilly firing away, one does not just shoot at an animal, but a very specific zone.

  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Co-opski View Post
    Real talk. Most casualties in Wisconsin are from hunters having massive cheese curd heart attacks climbing into their tree stands. It's an epidemic, public service announcements should be made to put the Blatz down and to step away from the deep fryers. Eat kale and ride bikes.
    You betcha der eh. At 6'-3", 210 some may say I am "Wisconsin skinny".

  137. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    You are making some wild, baseless presumptions. The last one is especially egregious with where you attempt to lay a blanket level of blame.
    You bet it's a blanket level of blame. You hit a human, it's your fault.

    Didn't see him? You didn't look properly for long enough. Come up with all the reasons you like, none of them is an excuse.

    I learned to hunt as a kid in the African bush. The rules we were taught are pretty much what I said above, especially being aware of everything else that was in the area - we weren't the only predator around. We were also taught to get very close to minimise bullets going a-wandering.

    And I agree with the OP's post. It's good advice to keep away from visually impaired people with guns.
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  138. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    You betcha der eh. At 6'-3", 210 some may say I am "Wisconsin skinny".
    Oh you are a half shot of jezynowka on da skinny side, or no? Yous need to slam a box of paczki and hit the all you can eat fish fry tonight and grab a Culvers cone on da way home to get ready for game 7. Go Brew Crew.
    Last edited by Co-opski; 10-19-2018 at 06:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    You bet it's a blanket level of blame. You hit a human, it's your fault.
    Nope, there is no such thing as an absolute.

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  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Nope, there is no such thing as an absolute...
    Fair enough, let's not argue.

    Just let us know where you're hunting....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Fair enough, let's not argue.

    Just let us know where you're hunting....
    There really isn't an argument to be had. You simply have a flawed, myopic, idealistic view on the subject. If a person consciously or ignorantly neglects their own safety then they are potentially opening themselves up to sharing part or all of the blame if that neglect leads to an accident. Statements like the one you made can actually lead to more unsafe decisions as people take that to mean they have no due diligence to protect themselves.

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  142. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    You simply have a flawed, myopic, idealistic view on the subject.
    Bringing the lulz!

    Edit- I was actually caught by your comment. The other poster just extended a proverbial olive branch and you chose to not only reengage but threw a healthy doses of spite to reinforce your stance. In my opinion, that reveals character - I hope you are more sporting in your hunting. I encourage you to reflect on this over the weekend. Let's strive for more civility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    Bringing the lulz!

    Edit- I was actually caught by your comment. The other poster just extended a proverbial olive branch and you chose to not only reengage but threw a healthy doses of spite to reinforce your stance. In my opinion, that reveals character - I hope you are more sporting in your hunting. I encourage you to reflect on this over the weekend. Let's strive for more civility.
    There was no "disengagemant". There was a snide and sarcastic parting remark on his part. There was no spite in my words. I did not personally attack anyone, which is more than can be said for yourself.

    You can think whatever you like but the honest truth is he is espousing a viewpoint that is extremely dangerous. Yes, a person performing an activity that can injure others if proper safety is not taken has a high level of responsibility, to themselves and others. That said the presence of said activity does not remove a certain level of accountability.

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  144. #144
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  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    . I did not personally attack anyone, which is more than can be said for yourself.
    You know exactly what you did and your words were intended as pejoratives - so it's clear you are being disingenuous. I don't have horse in this little sideshow and keeping it that way. From the outside looking in, there are some extremely weak arguments here and massive levels of projection & denial - I was intrigued by the sensation of it all and regret my decision to wade in. Carry on if you must.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    You know exactly what you did and your words were intended as pejoratives - so it's clear you are being disingenuous. I don't have horse in this little sideshow and keeping it that way. From the outside looking in, there are some extremely weak arguments here and massive levels of projection & denial - I was intrigued by the sensation of it all and regret my decision to wade in. Carry on if you must.
    Yes, my words were based out of contempt for a dangerous viewpoint. However, that does not mean that they were directed at a person or spiteful. You are the one who is continuing to make groundless personal attacks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Co-opski View Post
    Oh you are a half shot of jezynowka on da skinny side, or no? Yous need to slam a box of paczki and hit the all you can eat fish fry tonight and grab a Culvers cone on da way home to get ready for game 7. Go Brew Crew.
    Venison summer sausages pairs well with a Lake Front Fixed Gear and a 4 run Brewers first inning. Go Brewers!

  148. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bumpyride View Post
    Hunting season is not a time to be out on foot or bike without taking chances.
    Yup, that’s the bottom line. I stay out of the woods for that two weeks (trails are closed anyway) and ride my road bike. My wife puts orange collars on the dogs and doesn’t take them for their usual walk through the woods and fields around our house. I usually give it an extra few days before and after to accommodate the poachers. Archery season is longer...so I still have to be careful...wear blaze orange and stay out of the woods around dawn or dusk.

    I have no problem sharing the woods with hunters for 2-3 weeks out of the year. Here in Minnesota deer hunting massively dwarfs biking as an outdoor hobby. Firearms accidents are very rare here, but no point in tempting fate. I just stay away.

  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Yup, that’s the bottom line. I stay out of the woods for that two weeks (trails are closed anyway) and ride my road bike. My wife puts orange collars on the dogs and doesn’t take them for their usual walk through the woods and fields around our house. I usually give it an extra few days before and after to accommodate the poachers. Archery season is longer...so I still have to be careful...wear blaze orange and stay out of the woods around dawn or dusk.

    I have no problem sharing the woods with hunters for 2-3 weeks out of the year. Here in Minnesota deer hunting massively dwarfs biking as an outdoor hobby. Firearms accidents are very rare here, but no point in tempting fate. I just stay away.
    Yep, pretty much common sense and knowledge in areas where hunting is a cultural mainstay. Clearly it's a bit of foreign (sometimes literally) concept to those in other parts and that's normal. Hopefully this thread has made people a bit more aware.

  150. #150
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    1. I agree keep out of the woods or wear conspicuous colours. That is not in question. Personally I keep out off shooting areas during the season because while most hunters are responsible there's always a numpty with a gun that he's got to fire, right now.

    2. If you're riding a bike you are generally are limited to trails. I was questioning the thinking of anyone shooting across a trail and hitting a cyclist. Firing across trails/roads, towards human habitation, or where other humans are likely to be has always been a no no.

    If someone will explain how that can be ok I'll take it into consideration.

    My opinion is that that highlights a lack of ethics, observation, and skill.

    Anyone victim blaming the cyclist, maybe should consider which of those they lack.
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  151. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    2. If you're riding a bike you are generally are limited to trails. I was questioning the thinking of anyone shooting across a trail and hitting a cyclist. Firing across trails/roads, towards human habitation, or where other humans are likely to be has always been a no no.

    If someone will explain how that can be ok I'll take it into consideration.

    My opinion is that that highlights a lack of ethics, observation, and skill.

    Anyone victim blaming the cyclist, maybe should consider which of those they lack.
    There are numerous ways that can happen, some more likely than others. One is that not every trail is marked. To a traveling hunter a leaf strewn, low traffic trail can look an awfully lot like a game trail. If it is a trail that is not on a map that is going to cause potential issues. You also have the issue of people poaching: unauthorized trails, entering closed areas, trespassing on private property, etc. It is also necessary to call out that approved safety colors will be visible and noticeable long before other colors. It's just the way the human mind works.

    In any of the above situations if the "victim" cyclist was not wearing approved colors that individual is not a victim.



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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post

    In any of the above situations if the "victim" cyclist was not wearing approved colors that individual is not a victim.

    bs^ IMHO.


    Agree that it's prudent to wear bright colors during hunting season but it doesn't mean people are fair game if they don't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    bs^ IMHO.


    Agree that it's prudent to wear bright colors during hunting season but it doesn't mean people are fair game if they don't.
    Quit making straw effigies

    And no, it is not prudent to just wear bright colors, it is prudent to wear approved safety colors.

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  154. #154
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    It's important to look like the Fall leaves, so you blend in.
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  155. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Quit making straw effigies

    I was just commenting on exactly what you said.


    One thing that hasn't gotten much mention is that a good portion of the general public isn't aware of when hunting season is and it isn't posted at trailheads. I know deer season around here is in Oct/Nov but I don't know the exact dates. And then there's Javelina season, turkey season, elk season, squirrel season, bighorn season, mountain lion season, etc, etc. So it's pretty much year round hunting season here and if you're not a hunter you're not going to know what season is when.

    So IMO the hunter bears the ultimate responsibility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    It's important to look like the Fall leaves, so youu blend in.
    That is an ignorant argument as it relates to gun deer season, especially in the midwest. Yes, some trees can have a bright orange color for a short period. Where your argument fails is when they have that color. In the midwest it is typically early to mid October. Gun hunting season is not until late November when the only trees that might still be holding leaves are oaks. They are brown in color and blaze orange contrasts very well. Gee, it's almost like the State regulators plan it that way and select colors accordingly.

  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I was just commenting on exactly what you said.


    One thing that hasn't gotten much mention is that a good portion of the general public isn't aware of when hunting season is and it isn't posted at trailheads. I know deer season around here is in Oct/Nov but I don't know the exact dates. And then there's Javelina season, turkey season, elk season, squirrel season, turkey season, mountain lion season, etc, etc. So it's pretty much year round hunting season here and if you're not a hunter you're not going to know what season is when.

    So IMO the hunter bears the ultimate responsibility.
    No, you weren't. Please quote the exact part where I said "fair game".

    So you know there are hunting seasons. You are aware that there are perscribed colors to increase everyone's safety. And you still can't be bothered to look up the dates to help increase your own level of personal safety?

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  158. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    There are numerous ways that can happen, some more likely than others. One is that not every trail is marked. To a traveling hunter a leaf strewn, low traffic trail can look an awfully lot like a game trail. If it is a trail that is not on a map that is going to cause potential issues. You also have the issue of people poaching: unauthorized trails, entering closed areas, trespassing on private property, etc. It is also necessary to call out that approved safety colors will be visible and noticeable long before other colors. It's just the way the human mind works.

    In any of the above situations if the "victim" cyclist was not wearing approved colors that individual is not a victim.
    I think you should delete your posts on this subject.

    If you ever accidentally shoot a human, someone on the other side will dredge them up. You may find a court has a different opinion to you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    I think you should delete your posts on this subject.

    If you ever accidentally shoot a human, someone on the other side will dredge them up. You may find a court has a different opinion to you.
    You know that would be an attractive argument except case law agrees with me on this subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    No, you weren't. Please quote the exact part where I said "fair game".
    Ok so maybe I embellished but only slightly-

    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    .......In any of the above situations if the "victim" cyclist was not wearing approved colors that individual is not a victim.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Ok so maybe I embellished but only slightly-
    How about quite a bit.

    So you know there are hunting seasons. You are aware that there are perscribed colors to increase everyone's safety. And you still can't be bothered to look up the dates to help increase your own level of personal safety?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    So you know there are hunting seasons. You are aware that there are perscribed colors to increase everyone's safety. And you still can't be bothered to look up the dates to help increase your own level of personal safety?

    I was only pointing out that most people don't know when hunting seasons are, and they aren't prominently posted at trailheads. It just seems logical that hunters should be aware of this fact.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    I think you should delete your posts on this subject.

    If you ever accidentally shoot a human, someone on the other side will dredge them up. You may find a court has a different opinion to you.
    To me the court is not a consideration. Waking up with nightmares of having accidentally shot some one is enough reason to hunt with extreme caution.

    As far as courts go, remember the jury in the US is made up of one's peers. If someone is dressed in clothes that cannot be readily seen, odds are good it would be viewed as an accident. I would think wearing "Approved colors" would NOT be a suitable defense in determining if it was an accident, negligent act or worse. If a jury determines the person could/should have been seen then the hunter is in a heap of trouble.

  164. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    So you know there are hunting seasons. You are aware that there are perscribed colors to increase everyone's safety. And you still can't be bothered to look up the dates to help increase your own level of personal safety?

    I always wear gaudy roadie kits during whatever hunting season it happens to be at the time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I was only pointing out that most people don't know when hunting seasons are, and they aren't prominently posted at trailheads. It just seems logical that hunters should be aware of this fact.
    If you can successfully argue that most people don't know that there is hunting you will have a point. Until then it's merely apathy or willful ignorance contributing to negligence. The dates are published and the fact that people hunt is not a secret.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    To me the court is not a consideration. Waking up with nightmares of having accidentally shot some one is enough reason to hunt with extreme caution.

    As far as courts go, remember the jury in the US is made up of one's peers. If someone is dressed in clothes that cannot be readily seen, odds are good it would be viewed as an accident. I would think wearing "Approved colors" would NOT be a suitable defense in determining if it was an accident, negligent act or worse. If a jury determines the person could/should have been seen then the hunter is in a heap of trouble.
    Exactly, but if he would take the time to read my posts he would see I've only discussed a single specific scenario in this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I always wear gaudy roadie kits during whatever hunting season it happens to be at the time.
    It's better than nothing but you really should wear prescribed colors. Also, definitely no red, white and blue during turkey season.

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  168. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    If you can successfully argue that most people don't know that there is hunting you will have a point. Until then it's merely apathy or willful ignorance contributing to negligence. The dates are published and the fact that people hunt is not a secret.

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  169. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I was only pointing out that most people don't know when hunting seasons are, and they aren't prominently posted at trailheads. It just seems logical that hunters should be aware of this fact.
    Safety is EVERYONES responsibility. I work for a construction company, this is preached daily. It does not matter if you are the person operating the heavy machinery that could kill someone or the laborer carrying material in and around the path of travel of the equipment. ALL must be aware of the risks and take appropriate measures. It's no coincidence that high viz clothing is required, even for those visiting the jobsite.

  170. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Uncle. Fire at will cowboy!
    It's becoming clear that you just don't want to have any personal accountability.

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  171. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    Safety is EVERYONES responsibility. I work for a construction company, this is preached daily. It does not matter if you are the person operating the heavy machinery that could kill someone or the laborer carrying material in and around the path of travel of the equipment. ALL must be aware of the risks and take appropriate measures.

    I've worked construction too. Projects are cordoned off with cones, orange fencing and prominent signs so the general public who may be unaware of any hazards can't inadvertently enter danger zones.
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  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Agree that it's prudent to wear bright colors during hunting season but it doesn't mean people are fair game if they don't.
    I haven't seen anyone here suggest otherwise, but yes, prudence would dictate that you are at some risk if you decide to forego basic safety precautions relative to your biking activities, and common sense would dictate that if you don't, you have some degree of responsibility for the outcome. That would apply to riding in the woods during hunting season, riding on the road when cars are present, your decision whether or not to wear a helmet or other safety equipment...and many of the other choices associated with such a hobby.

    Both hunters and mountain bikers have to take responsibility for their respective roles in not shooting someone in the woods, and not getting shot in the woods. Seems pretty obvious to me, just as both automobile drivers and bicyclists need to take responsibility for their roles in not running someone over and not being run over.

  173. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    That is an ignorant argument as it relates to gun deer season, especially in the midwest. Yes, some trees can have a bright orange color for a short period. Where your argument fails is when they have that color. In the midwest it is typically early to mid October. Gun hunting season is not until late November when the only trees that might still be holding leaves are oaks. They are brown in color and blaze orange contrasts very well. Gee, it's almost like the State regulators plan it that way and select colors accordingly.
    So basically you are agreeing with me that this color you want me to wear is found in nature during hunting season. Interesting. Additionally, altitude and slope-location plays a huge role in what colors are where. You might catch the orange blaze of the Aspens, Birtchs, Oaks and others at the right time, but there'll be pockets that lag or lead significantly, in addition to the altitude or latitude differences.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  174. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I've worked construction too. Projects are cordoned off with cones, orange fencing and prominent signs so the general public who may be unaware of any hazards can't inadvertently enter danger zones.
    With that logic we need to place signs warning of "bump" and guard rails next to drops on trails because more mountain bikers are injured or killed from crash hazards than from being shot by hunters...the margin is not even close.

  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    So basically you are agreeing with me that this color you want me to wear is found in nature during hunting season. Interesting. Additionally, altitude and slope-location plays a huge role in what colors are where. You might catch the orange blaze of the Aspens, Birtchs, Oaks and others at the right time, but there'll be pockets that lag or lead significantly, in addition to the altitude or latitude differences.
    No, that is not at all what I said. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. I have said one needs to make their presence known and one way to do that is to make themselves seen. You are hung up on blaze orange. Blaze orange is not the only approved color. If riding in the conditions you describe, then perhaps fluorescent pink is more appropriate as it would be more contrasting. For the midwest, blaze orange is almost always contrasting and immediately recognizable in the woods as something NOT to shoot at. It's context of the woods/prairie that makes orange/pink a good choice.

    On the road I am not a fan of wearing blaze orange. Why? In that context traffic barrels are a similar orange and drivers view them as inanimate. High viz yellow is a better choice as drivers are most accustomed to seeing road crews in yellow.

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    'there's always a numpty with a gun that he's got to fire'
    Truth. That's why they formed a club called the Numpty Rifle Association. Not to be confused with the Nincompoop Rifle Association.

  177. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by frozenmonkey View Post
    'there's always a numpty with a gun that he's got to fire'
    Truth. That's why they formed a club called the Numpty Rifle Association. Not to be confused with the Nincompoop Rifle Association.
    Thank you. I was looking of a cogent argument to be put forth, and boom, there it is. Certainly mic drop worthy. Kudos.

  178. #178
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    Just want to paint a rediculous picture for illustration purposes:

    Biker dresses in a deer costume and bikes in the Northwoods during rifle season. Expected results; said biker wins the Darwin award.

    Conclusion: Take every reasonable precaution not to win the Darwin award.

    Ride safely my friends!

  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    Just want to paint a rediculous picture for illustration purposes:

    Biker dresses in a deer costume and bikes in the Northwoods during rifle season. Expected results; said biker wins the Darwin award.

    Conclusion: Take every reasonable precaution not to win the Darwin award.

    Ride safely my friends!

    Maybe so but it doesn't excuse the fact that the guy who shot him was either drunk or an idiot, or both. Stay sober my friends!
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  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by frozenmonkey View Post
    'there's always a numpty with a gun that he's got to fire'
    Truth. That's why they formed a club called the Numpty Rifle Association. Not to be confused with the Nincompoop Rifle Association.

    That's my comment, but don't take it as meaning I'm against guns or hunting for the pot. Just numpties.
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  181. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Maybe so but it doesn't excuse the fact that the guy who shot him was either drunk or an idiot, or both. Stay sober my friends!
    Yes. Everybody needs to be careful out in the woods during deer season and mind their respective safety responsibilities for their safety and the safety of others....numpty bikers and numpty hunters alike.

  182. #182
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    It's about time the mods lock this down. The points have been made. Nothing left but name calling.

  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Maybe so but it doesn't excuse the fact that the guy who shot him was either drunk or an idiot, or both. Stay sober my friends!
    That's a poor assumption and a stereotype I have not been experienced in my many years of hunting.

  184. #184
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    I see more empty beer cans left by the gravel roads this time of year.... Coincidence?

  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shark View Post
    I see more empty beer cans left by the gravel roads this time of year.... Coincidence?
    Probably see them on the mountain bike trails too if there was a convenient way to carry beer on a bicycle.

  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Probably see them on the mountain bike trails too if there was a convenient way to carry beer on a bicycle.
    Every singlespeed rider knows the secret to that.

    Internally...
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  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Every singlespeed rider knows the secret to that.

    Internally...
    I was thinking a motion-stabilized gimbaled growler. Maybe with a pressurized bite-tube. Suspended on bungies from the top tube. That would keep beer cans off the trail too.

  188. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    That's a poor assumption and a stereotype I have not been experienced in my many years of hunting.
    He just wants it to be someone else's fault so he doesn't have to have any personal responsibility.

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  189. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    I was thinking a motion-stabilized gimbaled growler. Maybe with a pressurized bite-tube. Suspended on bungies from the top tube. That would keep beer cans off the trail too.
    I found the Blackburn Outpost Cargo Cage was an effective growler carrier on the fork of my Mukluk when doing a brewery tour ride. (It worked equally well for the coffee thermos when riding to the deer stand.)



    I do miss those fork braze-ons on my Otso.

    This thread has reminded me that I should paint my growler orange before strapping it to the cage...you know, to keep it safe.

  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    That's a poor assumption and a stereotype I have not been experienced in my many years of hunting.

    I guess I shouldn't have stereotyped so narrowly, there could be other reasons why a hunter would pull the trigger on someone riding a bicycle dressed in a deer costume. Mental illness, sleep deprived, high on non-alcoholic drugs.... got any others?
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  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I guess I shouldn't have stereotyped so narrowly, there could be other reasons why a hunter would pull the trigger on someone riding a bicycle dressed in a deer costume. Mental illness, sleep deprived, high on non-alcoholic drugs.... got any others?
    Maybe that hunter finds bikers to be supercilious, humorless *****.....?

  192. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Probably see them on the mountain bike trails too if there was a convenient way to carry beer on a bicycle.
    I've seen plenty of beer cans left by bikers unfortunately.

  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I guess I shouldn't have stereotyped so narrowly, there could be other reasons why a hunter would pull the trigger on someone riding a bicycle dressed in a deer costume. Mental illness, sleep deprived, high on non-alcoholic drugs.... got any others?
    You've obviously made up your mind to villify hunters and paint bikers as victims.

    I tend to not see such things in black and white; being both an active hunter and bicycler, I feel I can provide some valuable insight.

    It's a shame you try to pollute such a discussion that may be helpful for many.

  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Maybe that hunter finds bikers to be supercilious, humorless *****.....?

    Maybe, but that falls under the mental illness category.
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  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I guess I shouldn't have stereotyped so narrowly, there could be other reasons why a hunter would pull the trigger on someone riding a bicycle dressed in a deer costume. Mental illness, sleep deprived, high on non-alcoholic drugs.... got any others?
    1.) Very often there is low brush where one might not see the bicycle.
    2.) In certain light conditions it might not be evident that it is a person wearing a deer costume.
    3.) In the context of being in the woods during hunting season, it would be highly unusual to expect to see someone riding a bike, wearing a deer costume. People's brains often "correct" for illogical information, even if the correction is wrong.

    Why would someone be riding through the woods during deer hunting season while wearing a deer costume? Mental illness, sleep deprived, high on non-alcoholic drugs?

    The whole point of this thread was supposed to warn people to do what they can to be recognized as NOT a deer. (wear bright colors and void dusk/dawn) Hunters are reminded to not be impaired by anything while hunting. As one that does both activities I cannot see why all people cannot simply say: "Hey, thanks for the heads up / reminder."

  196. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Maybe, but that falls under the mental illness category.

  197. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    You've obviously made up your mind to villify hunters and paint bikers as victims.

    No, I've said otherwise several times and I guess I'll say it again for clarification. Obviously it's good practice to wear bright colored clothing while out in the backcountry during hunting season. I do believe the final onus is on the one with the deadly weapon though, just my opinion.

    As to your post about the deer costume I was mostly poking a little fun but not completely, I would hope that any sound minded hunter could distinguish the difference between someone wearing a costume on a bike and an actual deer. Wouldn't you?
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  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    .

    Why would someone be riding through the woods during deer hunting season while wearing a deer costume? Mental illness, sleep deprived, high on non-alcoholic drugs?


    Don't know, I didn't come up with that scenario.


    Personally I would't take a shot at a deer unless I was 100% certain that it was a deer. Deer move in a distinctively different way than humans, I think you'd need to be a pretty fair actor to replicate it decently.
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  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    No, I've said otherwise several times and I guess I'll say it again for clarification. Obviously it's good practice to wear bright colored clothing while out in the backcountry during hunting season. I do believe the final onus is on the one with the deadly weapon though, just my opinion.

    As to your post about the deer costume I was mostly poking a little fun but not completely, I would hope that any sound minded hunter could distinguish the difference between someone wearing a costume on a bike and an actual deer. Wouldn't you?
    At 12noon it would be easy, with 5 mins of legal shooting light left(when most good deer start moving) would be pretty darn difficult. I don't suggest you do this. lol

  200. #200
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    BTW, the hazard of falling out of a tree stand is 6 times more likely than someone being injured by a hunter's firearm. Thus, do NOT ride under a tree stand, a hunter may fall on you.

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