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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    For the guy that negative-repped me for my first post, so angry he forgot a few words in the sentence, something like "how do you know he shooting at", you apply a reasonableness test to it. This is used all over the place in law. Can a hunter reasonably be aware of their surroundings and what is behind an animal. Example, shooting towards a highly-trafficked trail at relatively close range or in a direction where there are buildings not far away. Is it reasonable to assume that there might be people in that direction? Yes, so it would be reckless to shoot in that direction without taking additional precautions or steps to ensure that it was clear or that your round wouldn't go further and endanger people. There are other ways we could apply this, but I would say it's the hunter's responsibility to know where they are and where their rounds are going. There are plenty of places where their rounds would pose no hazard.
    That's merely an attempt to deflect responsibility from one's self. It's basically saying "I shouldn't be responsible for taking proper safety precautions. It's someone else's job". No, it is both parties job. Yes, the two scenarios you mentioned are valid. However, not every encounter takes place within those parameters. Why would a person consciously reduce their own safety margin and in this case foist it onto someone else?

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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    This is why I don't go in the woods during rifle season around here. Hunters can have at it all they want while I stick to my gravel bike.

    Reading this made me do some research about hunting accidents my state (Vermont) - a state where hunting is hugely popular and access to guns is very easy. Hunting accidents here are nearly non existent (there were none reported in 2013). The state began wide spread (and free) hunting safety programs back in the 70s when hunting accidents were more frequent (20 or so per year). The high school I teach at even does a hunting safety class on some weekends.

    I was shocked to see that France has 115 hunting accidents in the first 6 months of 2018. Seems like a lot for a country with tighter gun laws than America. I'd be curious to see what safety regulations France lacks that makes this more common. Comparing France to my little state is not equal but that many hunting accidents still seems high.
    Are they more trigger happy or less careful over there I wonder? Why so many more gun accidents?
    It seems maybe it's just a different mentality (kind of like driving overseas, lane lines mean nothing).

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    ..and imagine how many vehicle accidents (and deaths) would happen if hunting did not control the population.
    No arguments here.
    Dash Pt. State Park (Tacoma), Big Sky Montana during Snowboard Season, Duluth Mn, a couple of times of year incl. Xmas.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bumpyride View Post
    No arguments here.
    By the way, see what you started. What should have been a perfectly good public safety announcement turned into a $hit show.

  5. #105
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    In a Twist...

    Sometimes an alleged negligent hunter does a mom a favor...

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...box=1539772376

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    By the way, see what you started. What should have been a perfectly good public safety announcement turned into a $hit show.
    Was supposed to be a public service announcement and turned into a testosterone infused clown show.

    Couldn't figure out how to shut it down. Suggestions?

    "Dead Right", is not how I plan to end the hunting season. I'm not in any hunting areas anyway, at the current moment. Will have to check when I hit Montana.
    Dash Pt. State Park (Tacoma), Big Sky Montana during Snowboard Season, Duluth Mn, a couple of times of year incl. Xmas.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    That's merely an attempt to deflect responsibility from one's self. It's basically saying "I shouldn't be responsible for taking proper safety precautions. It's someone else's job". No, it is both parties job. Yes, the two scenarios you mentioned are valid. However, not every encounter takes place within those parameters. Why would a person consciously reduce their own safety margin and in this case foist it onto someone else?

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    Explain to me, specifically in that post, where I said that a user should have no responsibilities? It IS someone's job that creates a hazard to mitigate that hazard. I did NOT say that there was no responsibility on the other side, but I also said that you apply the reasonableness test to it, if the hunter can reasonably know that humans are likely in their field of fire, they need to take steps to mitigate that, not the people living or walking in front of them. They aren't the ones causing the hazard, the person putting bullets downrange is.
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Explain to me, specifically in that post, where I said that a user should have no responsibilities? It IS someone's job that creates a hazard to mitigate that hazard. I did NOT say that there was no responsibility on the other side, but I also said that you apply the reasonableness test to it, if the hunter can reasonably know that humans are likely in their field of fire, they need to take steps to mitigate that, not the people living or walking in front of them. They aren't the ones causing the hazard, the person putting bullets downrange is.
    I'm glad we can agree that the person creating the hazard is responsible. A person not wearing perscribed or recommended safety gear is creating a needless hazard. Both parties are responsible.

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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    They aren't the ones causing the hazard, the person putting bullets downrange is.
    As a hunter I am not a hazard to people I can see, or know are down range. I COULD be a deadly hazard to those I cannot see or know are down range. If you make yourself seen/known to me you remove the hazard.

    I view other hunters in the same vein and do my best to be seen/known. Within our hunting party we will text each other when we get out of our stands and walk around.

    Ultimately I am responsible for my own safety. I do the best I can and trust the other people around me are doing the same.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    As a hunter I am not a hazard to people I can see, or know are down range. I COULD be a deadly hazard to those I cannot see or know are down range. If you make yourself seen/known to me you remove the hazard.

    I view other hunters in the same vein and do my best to be seen/known. Within our hunting party we will text each other when we get out of our stands and walk around.

    Ultimately I am responsible for my own safety. I do the best I can and trust the other people around me are doing the same.
    Exactly.

    Would it be fair to say that part of ensuring your safety is to do everything within your power to not be a hazard? I know I don't want to live with the repercussions, technically my fault or not of that.

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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Exactly.

    Would it be fair to say that part of ensuring your safety is to do everything within your power to not be a hazard? I know I don't want to live with the repercussions, technically my fault or not of that.

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    Absolutely. I have dealt with guilt of someone on my boat getting injured with me at the helm. I cannot imagine the guilt of killing someone.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Exactly.

    Would it be fair to say that part of ensuring your safety is to do everything within your power to not be a hazard?
    Of course not, it goes back to reasonableness. If you did everything you could, you'd never leave the house.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Of course not, it goes back to reasonableness. If you did everything you could, you'd never leave the house.
    Nice reductio ad absurdium, wearing prescribed safety colors is a long cry from being afraid to leave the house. There is this thing called general context, you should investigate it.

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  14. #114
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    dudes give it up, you are both just saying the same thing over and over. we get it.

    if you are in an area that has hunting, dress accordingly, if you are pulling the trigger, know exactly where the bullets is going to strike. pretty easy.

  15. #115
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    reductio ad absurdium

    This thread wasn't completely worthless. Learned a new phrase. Been looking for one that describes some of the political diatribes that descend into reductio ad absurdium.

    Thanks, Tucker
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  16. #116
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    This is a good popcorn thread but what has it got to do with Fat bikes?
    What a perfect waste of time

  17. #117
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    shark

    go to youtube and search European hog hunting. Holy shit those dudes are scary.

  18. #118
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    I wear one of these and have been safe thus far
    https://youtu.be/zOqyFnnwNDw
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

  19. #119
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    Some of the hunters on here sound like the petrolheads who think they can justify speeding in a crowded residential area because they're "skilful" and anyway that kid didn't have a crash helmet or reflectors on his bike when I hit him with my 2 ton vehicle so it's his fault and look at the scratches on my car!
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Some of the hunters on here sound like the petrolheads who think they can justify speeding in a crowded residential area because they're "skilful" and anyway that kid didn't have a crash helmet or reflectors on his bike when I hit him with my 2 ton vehicle so it's his fault and look at the scratches on my car!
    If that's how you take "reduce your risk of being hit by being seen" so be it. No one is absolving hunters or drivers of responsibility for reckless, careless or even distracted use of a gun or vehicle.

    Understanding that we share the roads and woods, as cyclists we cannot control the hunter or driver side of the risk equation. How we cyclists choose to reduce the risk equation on our side is up to us.
    Last edited by BlueCheesehead; 4 Weeks Ago at 10:33 AM.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Some of the hunters on here sound like the petrolheads who think they can justify speeding in a crowded residential area because they're "skilful" and anyway that kid didn't have a crash helmet or reflectors on his bike when I hit him with my 2 ton vehicle so it's his fault and look at the scratches on my car!
    I don't see any of that here in this thread.

    I do see some very ethical hunters (myself included) who genuinely care and are trying to contribute and help.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    I don't see any of that here in this thread.

    I do see some very ethical hunters (myself included) who genuinely care and are trying to contribute and help.
    Presumably an ethical hunter would never discharge a gun in the direction of a path/trail/road or habitation and would have first assessed the terrain to make sure there wasn't one. That would eliminate the chance of hitting a random trail user.

    No hunter should assume that every other user of the countryside is aware they are in a hunting area, because odds are some aren't aware. The aware ones either won't be there or likely be wearing bright colours.

    There's lots of reasons that a mistake can be made, but reasons are never an excuse when you are in charge of a weapon.
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  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bumpyride View Post
    Stay out of areas where big game is being hunted.
    Nope. That's not practical in many places here in Montana. What, we're just supposed to not ride in the backcountry from September through November because of the potential that some jackass will shoot before he knows exactly what he is shooting at? And we don't assume the risk of being shot by riding mountain bikes (or hiking or birding or getting lit) in areas where hunting is allowed.

  24. #124
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    During my ride today, all no hunting areas .... But I still wear visible colors.
    Careful where you ride this time of the year.-img_5104.jpg

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Presumably an ethical hunter would never discharge a gun in the direction of a path/trail/road or habitation and would have first assessed the terrain to make sure there wasn't one. That would eliminate the chance of hitting a random trail user.

    No hunter should assume that every other user of the countryside is aware they are in a hunting area, because odds are some aren't aware. The aware ones either won't be there or likely be wearing bright colours.

    There's lots of reasons that a mistake can be made, but reasons are never an excuse when you are in charge of a weapon.
    You are making some wild, baseless presumptions. The last one is especially egregious with where you attempt to lay a blanket level of blame.

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    Last edited by tuckerjt07; 4 Weeks Ago at 08:22 PM.

  26. #126
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    And here I thought it was a good idea to remind people to be careful during hunting season. So aside from trying to assign blame, just be safe and aware.
    Dash Pt. State Park (Tacoma), Big Sky Montana during Snowboard Season, Duluth Mn, a couple of times of year incl. Xmas.

  27. #127
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    I don't hunt anymore out of extremely selfish reasons (I'm a night dweller), but I was raised with the expectation that I could identify the gender of the animal I was aiming at before I pulled the trigger.

    I was a decent shot but I always did catch and release aiming if I was even a little bit unsure.

    There were a lot of entitled hunters I encountered back then (the kind that'll slash your tires while you're away, at worst), so I don't expect anything's changed. For those feeling suddenly insulted, consider words of perspective that might leave you feeling a little less slighted: does the shoe fit?
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  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    expectation that I could identify the gender of the animal I was aiming at before I pulled the trigger.
    Simple yet exquisitely poignant point.
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Presumably an ethical hunter would never discharge a gun in the direction of a path/trail/road or habitation and would have first assessed the terrain to make sure there wasn't one. That would eliminate the chance of hitting a random trail user.

    No hunter should assume that every other user of the countryside is aware they are in a hunting area, because odds are some aren't aware. The aware ones either won't be there or likely be wearing bright colours.

    There's lots of reasons that a mistake can be made, but reasons are never an excuse when you are in charge of a weapon.
    Without arguing what you said, what the hunter SHOULD do is irrelevant to minimizing risk because as cyclist or hiker you cannot control that. All you can control is how you dress and where/when you ride this time of year. Control what you can control, hope (but don't assume) the hunters do what they should do (most do) and proceed accordingly.

    By the title of this thread the intent of OP appears to be to make those that read it more aware that hunting is, or could be, going on. Kudos to him for making more people aware. For those already aware, a reminder to both cyclists and hunters is a good thing. Hopefully that will make people more safe.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    Simple yet exquisitely poignant point.

  31. #131
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    Inigo Montoya is the man!
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  32. #132
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    [QUOTE=Drew Diller;13854748]I was raised with the expectation that I could identify the gender of the animal I was aiming at before I pulled the trigger..../QUOTE]

    How times have changed. At college freshman orientation they now stress that one must ask which gender one identifies with and not just go by looks.

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    How times have changed. At college freshman orientation they now stress that one must ask which gender one identifies with and not just go by looks.
    A few things I find mildly unpleasant about this comparison. One, we're talking about shooting animals deliberately while attempting to avoid people. Two, I'm pretty sure animals don't talk experience gender dysphoria, and if they could, that means they'd be communicative and sapient, and if they were all of those things I would not be shooting them.

    This is just about full on thread derailment here, my comment on animal gender was about visual acuity, target identification, and strict responsibility over a deadly weapon. Notice I'm not trying to rip you a new one here like an SJW would do, it's just, when I've made jokes about human trans issues in certain company, I've been told in no uncertain terms that I'm un-funny. Don't make my mistake, not worth having a laugh turn into an argument.
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  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    Neither do cyclists. If I ride in a place where it is likely hunting is going on, it is ultimately my decision of when to ride there and what to wear.

    In Wisconsin the primary hunting season is deer hunting. Bow season is September through December. I avoid dawn and dusk rides on public hunting land out of respect for them.

    Primary gun season lasts 9 days in late November. I stay out of the woods during that time except to ride to my deer stand on private land. I am head to toe orange.

    Every year some 600,000 hunters take to the woods for gun season in Wisconsin. I cannot recall if a cyclist has ever been shot by a hunter in Wisconsin.
    Real talk. Most casualties in Wisconsin are from hunters having massive cheese curd heart attacks climbing into their tree stands. It's an epidemic, public service announcements should be made to put the Blatz down and to step away from the deep fryers. Eat kale and ride bikes.
    ptarmigan hardcore

  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    A few things I find mildly unpleasant about this comparison. One, we're talking about shooting animals deliberately while attempting to avoid people. Two, I'm pretty sure animals don't talk experience gender dysphoria, and if they could, that means they'd be communicative and sapient, and if they were all of those things I would not be shooting them.

    This is just about full on thread derailment here, my comment on animal gender was about visual acuity, target identification, and strict responsibility over a deadly weapon. Notice I'm not trying to rip you a new one here like an SJW would do, it's just, when I've made jokes about human trans issues in certain company, I've been told in no uncertain terms that I'm un-funny. Don't make my mistake, not worth having a laugh turn into an argument.
    This thread was derailed long ago. For years I used gender and sex synonymously too.

    I'm Polish and grew up in the 60's & 70's, being able to laugh and not take offense at jokes was learned early. If people cannot deal with a little cultural humor I am reminded of Sgt Hulka "Lighten up Francis".

    "Attempting to avoid people"? The context of that was as if a successful "attempt" was simply a nice outcome. I "attempt" to make a free throw. Kickers "attempt" a field goal. Hunters are far more successful than a mere "attempt". Do not kid yourself, not shooting someone is the TOP priority. Only a psychopath would trade a human life for a trophy buck.

    Kudos to you for being able to see the genitals on a deer from distance. While antlered deer are almost always bucks (yes, there are rare exceptions), antlerless deer could be either sex.

    More important than the sex of the animal is aiming right behind and under the front shoulder. For those that seem to think that hunters are just willy nilly firing away, one does not just shoot at an animal, but a very specific zone.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Co-opski View Post
    Real talk. Most casualties in Wisconsin are from hunters having massive cheese curd heart attacks climbing into their tree stands. It's an epidemic, public service announcements should be made to put the Blatz down and to step away from the deep fryers. Eat kale and ride bikes.
    You betcha der eh. At 6'-3", 210 some may say I am "Wisconsin skinny".

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    You are making some wild, baseless presumptions. The last one is especially egregious with where you attempt to lay a blanket level of blame.
    You bet it's a blanket level of blame. You hit a human, it's your fault.

    Didn't see him? You didn't look properly for long enough. Come up with all the reasons you like, none of them is an excuse.

    I learned to hunt as a kid in the African bush. The rules we were taught are pretty much what I said above, especially being aware of everything else that was in the area - we weren't the only predator around. We were also taught to get very close to minimise bullets going a-wandering.

    And I agree with the OP's post. It's good advice to keep away from visually impaired people with guns.
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  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    You betcha der eh. At 6'-3", 210 some may say I am "Wisconsin skinny".
    Oh you are a half shot of jezynowka on da skinny side, or no? Yous need to slam a box of paczki and hit the all you can eat fish fry tonight and grab a Culvers cone on da way home to get ready for game 7. Go Brew Crew.
    Last edited by Co-opski; 4 Weeks Ago at 06:03 PM.
    ptarmigan hardcore

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    You bet it's a blanket level of blame. You hit a human, it's your fault.
    Nope, there is no such thing as an absolute.

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  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Nope, there is no such thing as an absolute...
    Fair enough, let's not argue.

    Just let us know where you're hunting....
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  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Fair enough, let's not argue.

    Just let us know where you're hunting....
    There really isn't an argument to be had. You simply have a flawed, myopic, idealistic view on the subject. If a person consciously or ignorantly neglects their own safety then they are potentially opening themselves up to sharing part or all of the blame if that neglect leads to an accident. Statements like the one you made can actually lead to more unsafe decisions as people take that to mean they have no due diligence to protect themselves.

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  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    You simply have a flawed, myopic, idealistic view on the subject.
    Bringing the lulz!

    Edit- I was actually caught by your comment. The other poster just extended a proverbial olive branch and you chose to not only reengage but threw a healthy doses of spite to reinforce your stance. In my opinion, that reveals character - I hope you are more sporting in your hunting. I encourage you to reflect on this over the weekend. Let's strive for more civility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    Bringing the lulz!

    Edit- I was actually caught by your comment. The other poster just extended a proverbial olive branch and you chose to not only reengage but threw a healthy doses of spite to reinforce your stance. In my opinion, that reveals character - I hope you are more sporting in your hunting. I encourage you to reflect on this over the weekend. Let's strive for more civility.
    There was no "disengagemant". There was a snide and sarcastic parting remark on his part. There was no spite in my words. I did not personally attack anyone, which is more than can be said for yourself.

    You can think whatever you like but the honest truth is he is espousing a viewpoint that is extremely dangerous. Yes, a person performing an activity that can injure others if proper safety is not taken has a high level of responsibility, to themselves and others. That said the presence of said activity does not remove a certain level of accountability.

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  44. #144
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    Arguing about guns on a fatbike forum =
    https://youtu.be/XwElLPSt0vY?t=110

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    . I did not personally attack anyone, which is more than can be said for yourself.
    You know exactly what you did and your words were intended as pejoratives - so it's clear you are being disingenuous. I don't have horse in this little sideshow and keeping it that way. From the outside looking in, there are some extremely weak arguments here and massive levels of projection & denial - I was intrigued by the sensation of it all and regret my decision to wade in. Carry on if you must.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    You know exactly what you did and your words were intended as pejoratives - so it's clear you are being disingenuous. I don't have horse in this little sideshow and keeping it that way. From the outside looking in, there are some extremely weak arguments here and massive levels of projection & denial - I was intrigued by the sensation of it all and regret my decision to wade in. Carry on if you must.
    Yes, my words were based out of contempt for a dangerous viewpoint. However, that does not mean that they were directed at a person or spiteful. You are the one who is continuing to make groundless personal attacks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Co-opski View Post
    Oh you are a half shot of jezynowka on da skinny side, or no? Yous need to slam a box of paczki and hit the all you can eat fish fry tonight and grab a Culvers cone on da way home to get ready for game 7. Go Brew Crew.
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  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bumpyride View Post
    Hunting season is not a time to be out on foot or bike without taking chances.
    Yup, that’s the bottom line. I stay out of the woods for that two weeks (trails are closed anyway) and ride my road bike. My wife puts orange collars on the dogs and doesn’t take them for their usual walk through the woods and fields around our house. I usually give it an extra few days before and after to accommodate the poachers. Archery season is longer...so I still have to be careful...wear blaze orange and stay out of the woods around dawn or dusk.

    I have no problem sharing the woods with hunters for 2-3 weeks out of the year. Here in Minnesota deer hunting massively dwarfs biking as an outdoor hobby. Firearms accidents are very rare here, but no point in tempting fate. I just stay away.

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Yup, that’s the bottom line. I stay out of the woods for that two weeks (trails are closed anyway) and ride my road bike. My wife puts orange collars on the dogs and doesn’t take them for their usual walk through the woods and fields around our house. I usually give it an extra few days before and after to accommodate the poachers. Archery season is longer...so I still have to be careful...wear blaze orange and stay out of the woods around dawn or dusk.

    I have no problem sharing the woods with hunters for 2-3 weeks out of the year. Here in Minnesota deer hunting massively dwarfs biking as an outdoor hobby. Firearms accidents are very rare here, but no point in tempting fate. I just stay away.
    Yep, pretty much common sense and knowledge in areas where hunting is a cultural mainstay. Clearly it's a bit of foreign (sometimes literally) concept to those in other parts and that's normal. Hopefully this thread has made people a bit more aware.

  50. #150
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    1. I agree keep out of the woods or wear conspicuous colours. That is not in question. Personally I keep out off shooting areas during the season because while most hunters are responsible there's always a numpty with a gun that he's got to fire, right now.

    2. If you're riding a bike you are generally are limited to trails. I was questioning the thinking of anyone shooting across a trail and hitting a cyclist. Firing across trails/roads, towards human habitation, or where other humans are likely to be has always been a no no.

    If someone will explain how that can be ok I'll take it into consideration.

    My opinion is that that highlights a lack of ethics, observation, and skill.

    Anyone victim blaming the cyclist, maybe should consider which of those they lack.
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  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    2. If you're riding a bike you are generally are limited to trails. I was questioning the thinking of anyone shooting across a trail and hitting a cyclist. Firing across trails/roads, towards human habitation, or where other humans are likely to be has always been a no no.

    If someone will explain how that can be ok I'll take it into consideration.

    My opinion is that that highlights a lack of ethics, observation, and skill.

    Anyone victim blaming the cyclist, maybe should consider which of those they lack.
    There are numerous ways that can happen, some more likely than others. One is that not every trail is marked. To a traveling hunter a leaf strewn, low traffic trail can look an awfully lot like a game trail. If it is a trail that is not on a map that is going to cause potential issues. You also have the issue of people poaching: unauthorized trails, entering closed areas, trespassing on private property, etc. It is also necessary to call out that approved safety colors will be visible and noticeable long before other colors. It's just the way the human mind works.

    In any of the above situations if the "victim" cyclist was not wearing approved colors that individual is not a victim.



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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post

    In any of the above situations if the "victim" cyclist was not wearing approved colors that individual is not a victim.

    bs^ IMHO.


    Agree that it's prudent to wear bright colors during hunting season but it doesn't mean people are fair game if they don't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    bs^ IMHO.


    Agree that it's prudent to wear bright colors during hunting season but it doesn't mean people are fair game if they don't.
    Quit making straw effigies

    And no, it is not prudent to just wear bright colors, it is prudent to wear approved safety colors.

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    It's important to look like the Fall leaves, so you blend in.
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  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Quit making straw effigies

    I was just commenting on exactly what you said.


    One thing that hasn't gotten much mention is that a good portion of the general public isn't aware of when hunting season is and it isn't posted at trailheads. I know deer season around here is in Oct/Nov but I don't know the exact dates. And then there's Javelina season, turkey season, elk season, squirrel season, bighorn season, mountain lion season, etc, etc. So it's pretty much year round hunting season here and if you're not a hunter you're not going to know what season is when.

    So IMO the hunter bears the ultimate responsibility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    It's important to look like the Fall leaves, so youu blend in.
    That is an ignorant argument as it relates to gun deer season, especially in the midwest. Yes, some trees can have a bright orange color for a short period. Where your argument fails is when they have that color. In the midwest it is typically early to mid October. Gun hunting season is not until late November when the only trees that might still be holding leaves are oaks. They are brown in color and blaze orange contrasts very well. Gee, it's almost like the State regulators plan it that way and select colors accordingly.

  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I was just commenting on exactly what you said.


    One thing that hasn't gotten much mention is that a good portion of the general public isn't aware of when hunting season is and it isn't posted at trailheads. I know deer season around here is in Oct/Nov but I don't know the exact dates. And then there's Javelina season, turkey season, elk season, squirrel season, turkey season, mountain lion season, etc, etc. So it's pretty much year round hunting season here and if you're not a hunter you're not going to know what season is when.

    So IMO the hunter bears the ultimate responsibility.
    No, you weren't. Please quote the exact part where I said "fair game".

    So you know there are hunting seasons. You are aware that there are perscribed colors to increase everyone's safety. And you still can't be bothered to look up the dates to help increase your own level of personal safety?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    There are numerous ways that can happen, some more likely than others. One is that not every trail is marked. To a traveling hunter a leaf strewn, low traffic trail can look an awfully lot like a game trail. If it is a trail that is not on a map that is going to cause potential issues. You also have the issue of people poaching: unauthorized trails, entering closed areas, trespassing on private property, etc. It is also necessary to call out that approved safety colors will be visible and noticeable long before other colors. It's just the way the human mind works.

    In any of the above situations if the "victim" cyclist was not wearing approved colors that individual is not a victim.
    I think you should delete your posts on this subject.

    If you ever accidentally shoot a human, someone on the other side will dredge them up. You may find a court has a different opinion to you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    I think you should delete your posts on this subject.

    If you ever accidentally shoot a human, someone on the other side will dredge them up. You may find a court has a different opinion to you.
    You know that would be an attractive argument except case law agrees with me on this subject.

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  60. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    No, you weren't. Please quote the exact part where I said "fair game".
    Ok so maybe I embellished but only slightly-

    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    .......In any of the above situations if the "victim" cyclist was not wearing approved colors that individual is not a victim.
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  61. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Ok so maybe I embellished but only slightly-
    How about quite a bit.

    So you know there are hunting seasons. You are aware that there are perscribed colors to increase everyone's safety. And you still can't be bothered to look up the dates to help increase your own level of personal safety?
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  62. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    So you know there are hunting seasons. You are aware that there are perscribed colors to increase everyone's safety. And you still can't be bothered to look up the dates to help increase your own level of personal safety?

    I was only pointing out that most people don't know when hunting seasons are, and they aren't prominently posted at trailheads. It just seems logical that hunters should be aware of this fact.
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  63. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    I think you should delete your posts on this subject.

    If you ever accidentally shoot a human, someone on the other side will dredge them up. You may find a court has a different opinion to you.
    To me the court is not a consideration. Waking up with nightmares of having accidentally shot some one is enough reason to hunt with extreme caution.

    As far as courts go, remember the jury in the US is made up of one's peers. If someone is dressed in clothes that cannot be readily seen, odds are good it would be viewed as an accident. I would think wearing "Approved colors" would NOT be a suitable defense in determining if it was an accident, negligent act or worse. If a jury determines the person could/should have been seen then the hunter is in a heap of trouble.

  64. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    So you know there are hunting seasons. You are aware that there are perscribed colors to increase everyone's safety. And you still can't be bothered to look up the dates to help increase your own level of personal safety?

    I always wear gaudy roadie kits during whatever hunting season it happens to be at the time.
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  65. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I was only pointing out that most people don't know when hunting seasons are, and they aren't prominently posted at trailheads. It just seems logical that hunters should be aware of this fact.
    If you can successfully argue that most people don't know that there is hunting you will have a point. Until then it's merely apathy or willful ignorance contributing to negligence. The dates are published and the fact that people hunt is not a secret.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    To me the court is not a consideration. Waking up with nightmares of having accidentally shot some one is enough reason to hunt with extreme caution.

    As far as courts go, remember the jury in the US is made up of one's peers. If someone is dressed in clothes that cannot be readily seen, odds are good it would be viewed as an accident. I would think wearing "Approved colors" would NOT be a suitable defense in determining if it was an accident, negligent act or worse. If a jury determines the person could/should have been seen then the hunter is in a heap of trouble.
    Exactly, but if he would take the time to read my posts he would see I've only discussed a single specific scenario in this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I always wear gaudy roadie kits during whatever hunting season it happens to be at the time.
    It's better than nothing but you really should wear prescribed colors. Also, definitely no red, white and blue during turkey season.

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  68. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    If you can successfully argue that most people don't know that there is hunting you will have a point. Until then it's merely apathy or willful ignorance contributing to negligence. The dates are published and the fact that people hunt is not a secret.

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  69. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I was only pointing out that most people don't know when hunting seasons are, and they aren't prominently posted at trailheads. It just seems logical that hunters should be aware of this fact.
    Safety is EVERYONES responsibility. I work for a construction company, this is preached daily. It does not matter if you are the person operating the heavy machinery that could kill someone or the laborer carrying material in and around the path of travel of the equipment. ALL must be aware of the risks and take appropriate measures. It's no coincidence that high viz clothing is required, even for those visiting the jobsite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Uncle. Fire at will cowboy!
    It's becoming clear that you just don't want to have any personal accountability.

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  71. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    Safety is EVERYONES responsibility. I work for a construction company, this is preached daily. It does not matter if you are the person operating the heavy machinery that could kill someone or the laborer carrying material in and around the path of travel of the equipment. ALL must be aware of the risks and take appropriate measures.

    I've worked construction too. Projects are cordoned off with cones, orange fencing and prominent signs so the general public who may be unaware of any hazards can't inadvertently enter danger zones.
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  72. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Agree that it's prudent to wear bright colors during hunting season but it doesn't mean people are fair game if they don't.
    I haven't seen anyone here suggest otherwise, but yes, prudence would dictate that you are at some risk if you decide to forego basic safety precautions relative to your biking activities, and common sense would dictate that if you don't, you have some degree of responsibility for the outcome. That would apply to riding in the woods during hunting season, riding on the road when cars are present, your decision whether or not to wear a helmet or other safety equipment...and many of the other choices associated with such a hobby.

    Both hunters and mountain bikers have to take responsibility for their respective roles in not shooting someone in the woods, and not getting shot in the woods. Seems pretty obvious to me, just as both automobile drivers and bicyclists need to take responsibility for their roles in not running someone over and not being run over.

  73. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    That is an ignorant argument as it relates to gun deer season, especially in the midwest. Yes, some trees can have a bright orange color for a short period. Where your argument fails is when they have that color. In the midwest it is typically early to mid October. Gun hunting season is not until late November when the only trees that might still be holding leaves are oaks. They are brown in color and blaze orange contrasts very well. Gee, it's almost like the State regulators plan it that way and select colors accordingly.
    So basically you are agreeing with me that this color you want me to wear is found in nature during hunting season. Interesting. Additionally, altitude and slope-location plays a huge role in what colors are where. You might catch the orange blaze of the Aspens, Birtchs, Oaks and others at the right time, but there'll be pockets that lag or lead significantly, in addition to the altitude or latitude differences.
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  74. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I've worked construction too. Projects are cordoned off with cones, orange fencing and prominent signs so the general public who may be unaware of any hazards can't inadvertently enter danger zones.
    With that logic we need to place signs warning of "bump" and guard rails next to drops on trails because more mountain bikers are injured or killed from crash hazards than from being shot by hunters...the margin is not even close.

  75. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    So basically you are agreeing with me that this color you want me to wear is found in nature during hunting season. Interesting. Additionally, altitude and slope-location plays a huge role in what colors are where. You might catch the orange blaze of the Aspens, Birtchs, Oaks and others at the right time, but there'll be pockets that lag or lead significantly, in addition to the altitude or latitude differences.
    No, that is not at all what I said. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. I have said one needs to make their presence known and one way to do that is to make themselves seen. You are hung up on blaze orange. Blaze orange is not the only approved color. If riding in the conditions you describe, then perhaps fluorescent pink is more appropriate as it would be more contrasting. For the midwest, blaze orange is almost always contrasting and immediately recognizable in the woods as something NOT to shoot at. It's context of the woods/prairie that makes orange/pink a good choice.

    On the road I am not a fan of wearing blaze orange. Why? In that context traffic barrels are a similar orange and drivers view them as inanimate. High viz yellow is a better choice as drivers are most accustomed to seeing road crews in yellow.

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    'there's always a numpty with a gun that he's got to fire'
    Truth. That's why they formed a club called the Numpty Rifle Association. Not to be confused with the Nincompoop Rifle Association.

  77. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by frozenmonkey View Post
    'there's always a numpty with a gun that he's got to fire'
    Truth. That's why they formed a club called the Numpty Rifle Association. Not to be confused with the Nincompoop Rifle Association.
    Thank you. I was looking of a cogent argument to be put forth, and boom, there it is. Certainly mic drop worthy. Kudos.

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    Just want to paint a rediculous picture for illustration purposes:

    Biker dresses in a deer costume and bikes in the Northwoods during rifle season. Expected results; said biker wins the Darwin award.

    Conclusion: Take every reasonable precaution not to win the Darwin award.

    Ride safely my friends!

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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    Just want to paint a rediculous picture for illustration purposes:

    Biker dresses in a deer costume and bikes in the Northwoods during rifle season. Expected results; said biker wins the Darwin award.

    Conclusion: Take every reasonable precaution not to win the Darwin award.

    Ride safely my friends!

    Maybe so but it doesn't excuse the fact that the guy who shot him was either drunk or an idiot, or both. Stay sober my friends!
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  80. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by frozenmonkey View Post
    'there's always a numpty with a gun that he's got to fire'
    Truth. That's why they formed a club called the Numpty Rifle Association. Not to be confused with the Nincompoop Rifle Association.

    That's my comment, but don't take it as meaning I'm against guns or hunting for the pot. Just numpties.
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  81. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Maybe so but it doesn't excuse the fact that the guy who shot him was either drunk or an idiot, or both. Stay sober my friends!
    Yes. Everybody needs to be careful out in the woods during deer season and mind their respective safety responsibilities for their safety and the safety of others....numpty bikers and numpty hunters alike.

  82. #182
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    It's about time the mods lock this down. The points have been made. Nothing left but name calling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Maybe so but it doesn't excuse the fact that the guy who shot him was either drunk or an idiot, or both. Stay sober my friends!
    That's a poor assumption and a stereotype I have not been experienced in my many years of hunting.

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    I see more empty beer cans left by the gravel roads this time of year.... Coincidence?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shark View Post
    I see more empty beer cans left by the gravel roads this time of year.... Coincidence?
    Probably see them on the mountain bike trails too if there was a convenient way to carry beer on a bicycle.

  86. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Probably see them on the mountain bike trails too if there was a convenient way to carry beer on a bicycle.
    Every singlespeed rider knows the secret to that.

    Internally...
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  87. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Every singlespeed rider knows the secret to that.

    Internally...
    I was thinking a motion-stabilized gimbaled growler. Maybe with a pressurized bite-tube. Suspended on bungies from the top tube. That would keep beer cans off the trail too.

  88. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    That's a poor assumption and a stereotype I have not been experienced in my many years of hunting.
    He just wants it to be someone else's fault so he doesn't have to have any personal responsibility.

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  89. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    I was thinking a motion-stabilized gimbaled growler. Maybe with a pressurized bite-tube. Suspended on bungies from the top tube. That would keep beer cans off the trail too.
    I found the Blackburn Outpost Cargo Cage was an effective growler carrier on the fork of my Mukluk when doing a brewery tour ride. (It worked equally well for the coffee thermos when riding to the deer stand.)



    I do miss those fork braze-ons on my Otso.

    This thread has reminded me that I should paint my growler orange before strapping it to the cage...you know, to keep it safe.

  90. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    That's a poor assumption and a stereotype I have not been experienced in my many years of hunting.

    I guess I shouldn't have stereotyped so narrowly, there could be other reasons why a hunter would pull the trigger on someone riding a bicycle dressed in a deer costume. Mental illness, sleep deprived, high on non-alcoholic drugs.... got any others?
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  91. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I guess I shouldn't have stereotyped so narrowly, there could be other reasons why a hunter would pull the trigger on someone riding a bicycle dressed in a deer costume. Mental illness, sleep deprived, high on non-alcoholic drugs.... got any others?
    Maybe that hunter finds bikers to be supercilious, humorless *****.....?

  92. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Probably see them on the mountain bike trails too if there was a convenient way to carry beer on a bicycle.
    I've seen plenty of beer cans left by bikers unfortunately.

  93. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I guess I shouldn't have stereotyped so narrowly, there could be other reasons why a hunter would pull the trigger on someone riding a bicycle dressed in a deer costume. Mental illness, sleep deprived, high on non-alcoholic drugs.... got any others?
    You've obviously made up your mind to villify hunters and paint bikers as victims.

    I tend to not see such things in black and white; being both an active hunter and bicycler, I feel I can provide some valuable insight.

    It's a shame you try to pollute such a discussion that may be helpful for many.

  94. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Maybe that hunter finds bikers to be supercilious, humorless *****.....?

    Maybe, but that falls under the mental illness category.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  95. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I guess I shouldn't have stereotyped so narrowly, there could be other reasons why a hunter would pull the trigger on someone riding a bicycle dressed in a deer costume. Mental illness, sleep deprived, high on non-alcoholic drugs.... got any others?
    1.) Very often there is low brush where one might not see the bicycle.
    2.) In certain light conditions it might not be evident that it is a person wearing a deer costume.
    3.) In the context of being in the woods during hunting season, it would be highly unusual to expect to see someone riding a bike, wearing a deer costume. People's brains often "correct" for illogical information, even if the correction is wrong.

    Why would someone be riding through the woods during deer hunting season while wearing a deer costume? Mental illness, sleep deprived, high on non-alcoholic drugs?

    The whole point of this thread was supposed to warn people to do what they can to be recognized as NOT a deer. (wear bright colors and void dusk/dawn) Hunters are reminded to not be impaired by anything while hunting. As one that does both activities I cannot see why all people cannot simply say: "Hey, thanks for the heads up / reminder."

  96. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Maybe, but that falls under the mental illness category.

  97. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    You've obviously made up your mind to villify hunters and paint bikers as victims.

    No, I've said otherwise several times and I guess I'll say it again for clarification. Obviously it's good practice to wear bright colored clothing while out in the backcountry during hunting season. I do believe the final onus is on the one with the deadly weapon though, just my opinion.

    As to your post about the deer costume I was mostly poking a little fun but not completely, I would hope that any sound minded hunter could distinguish the difference between someone wearing a costume on a bike and an actual deer. Wouldn't you?
    I brake for stinkbugs

  98. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    .

    Why would someone be riding through the woods during deer hunting season while wearing a deer costume? Mental illness, sleep deprived, high on non-alcoholic drugs?


    Don't know, I didn't come up with that scenario.


    Personally I would't take a shot at a deer unless I was 100% certain that it was a deer. Deer move in a distinctively different way than humans, I think you'd need to be a pretty fair actor to replicate it decently.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  99. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    No, I've said otherwise several times and I guess I'll say it again for clarification. Obviously it's good practice to wear bright colored clothing while out in the backcountry during hunting season. I do believe the final onus is on the one with the deadly weapon though, just my opinion.

    As to your post about the deer costume I was mostly poking a little fun but not completely, I would hope that any sound minded hunter could distinguish the difference between someone wearing a costume on a bike and an actual deer. Wouldn't you?
    At 12noon it would be easy, with 5 mins of legal shooting light left(when most good deer start moving) would be pretty darn difficult. I don't suggest you do this. lol

  100. #200
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    BTW, the hazard of falling out of a tree stand is 6 times more likely than someone being injured by a hunter's firearm. Thus, do NOT ride under a tree stand, a hunter may fall on you.

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