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  1. #1
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    Beadlocks for tubeless.

    Back in April of 2010, I started a project to build an inflatable beadlock for fat tires:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/any...re-608923.html

    I tried tires, but none are the right profile. Wide enough means too tall.

    I tried a sewn fabric "tire", but the bead part was not strong enough to stay down where it should.

    Now, I've got it. Start with a narrow, light26"(559) road slick. Slice it down the center of the "tread". Sew woven polypropylene strap to the 2 "sidewalls" - now you've got a wide, low profile:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Beadlocks for tubeless.-img_1715s.jpg  

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  2. #2
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    That is 3" strap - with 3/4" overlap to the "sidewall". I tried it on the 100's - but it's not wide enough. This is on a LargeMarge (my unicycle). The outer tire is an old Endo with a cutout so I can see inside.

    Here's the bead interface inside and out. Beadlock is inflated to 20 psi, and the Endo beads are where they should be and stay put like there's 20psi on them:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Beadlocks for tubeless.-img_1716s.jpg  

    Beadlocks for tubeless.-img_1717s.jpg  

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  3. #3
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    Next beadlock will use 4" strap, and 5/8" overlap. Should fit 100's well.

    The other part is how to inflate the outer tire. I started with 1/8" vinyl tubing and a brass motorcycle tubeless valve:


    But it didn't flow much air when new, and the pressure in the beadlock over a few days crushed it flat.

    Now I'm trying an aluminum automotive tubeless valve from 949 racing ( Black anodized aluminum valve ), thanks to user Moe's Tavern in this thread: https://forums.mtbr.com/arizona/thre...ss-621638.html I've moved up to 1/4" polyethylene tubing to move the air around the beadlock innertube. It's undergoing the crush test now, but no problems after 1 1/2 days. You can see the size difference between old&new tubing.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Beadlocks for tubeless.-img_1718s.jpg  

    Beadlocks for tubeless.-img_1723s.jpg  

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  4. #4
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    how did you end up doing the second stem? a hose like in your tests?

  5. #5
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    Next step is to convert a 100 and start riding it. Reports will follow, but probably not very quick.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericpulvermacher View Post


    how did you end up doing the second stem? a hose like in your tests?
    Yep. 1/4" poly tubing. Much stiffer than the vinyl, and way more flow area.
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  7. #7
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    I still like the cobra tube idea and just a simple through hole in the beadlock... and you can get them individually:

    Amazon.com: Flybikes Cobra Tube 26" Schraeder Valve Sold Eachh: Sports & Outdoors

    g

  8. #8
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    "Narrow" beadlock on a 100. Forgot I had this pic.


    You can see just how close it is - remembering that the fat tire beads will take up some of that.

    I guess the question would be - do I want any sidewall support, or max slope away from the sidewall. Hmmmm.
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  9. #9
    ride more
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    That's cool, great idea.

  10. #10
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    Some thought about internal beadlock
    Additional tire with tube.








    ---------- Добавлено в 20:04 ---------- Предыдущее сообщение было в 20:02 ----------




    gonna to try it in practice (with stans) as I get my 100s. Just cant choose the inner tire - light enough. FFred ? Ralph ? Or slick like Supermoto ?

    p.s. doesnt hold air without sealant.

  11. #11
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    Yes, a Fat Frank (26x2.35) will fill the bill - but you'll be riding on both the fat tire and the FF inner at normal operating pressures.



    That's why I've gone to the split road slick/strap version. Wide enough, but with low enough profile to allow the fattie to run unobstructed.

    I had a leather shop sew the strap to the sidewalls - my sewing machine couldn't handle the rubber of the tire.

    How are you inflating the outer fattie?
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  12. #12
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    needle for inflating football balls. Insert it between the BFL and inner tire, inflate, remove it.

    Ive drilled a small hole in the rim https://s017.radikal.ru/i413/1111/f2/3f660d7db7b7t.jpg

  13. #13
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    Whether it works out or not, or is even something that is necessary, glad to see you taking the effort to try and further the sport from your perspective. As you can probably tell I'm a fan of innovations and ingenuity.
    Last edited by modifier; 12-06-2011 at 07:47 PM.

  14. #14
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    Is there a standard tube inside the beadlock? If so, could you use one of those C-shape tubes inside, drill a 2nd valve stem hole in the rim at the the over-lap location of the C tube (don't know if the overlap is adjacent to its stem or some distance away) and then place your extended stem tubing straight through to the high volume main chamber area? You'd need to cut a hole in the beadlock strapping but maybe could reinforce that with a grommet to prevent fray.

    Just thinking of a way to get the air to the main chamber in a simpler fashion. Maybe with an extra long stem you could even clamp it to the grommet on the strapping like you would a traditional tubeless setup and lose the polyethylene tubing all together.

    And where does this system become air-tight? (How are you making the strapping air-tight?) I still can't figure that out.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by bme107 View Post
    Is there a standard tube inside the beadlock?
    Yes, there is.


    Quote Originally Posted by bme107 View Post
    If so, could you use one of those C-shape tubes inside, drill a 2nd valve stem hole in the rim at the the over-lap location of the C tube (don't know if the overlap is adjacent to its stem or some distance away) and then place your extended stem tubing straight through to the high volume main chamber area? You'd need to cut a hole in the beadlock strapping but maybe could reinforce that with a grommet to prevent fray.
    The "C" tube is less common - and an unknown. The standard tube with the short length of poly tubing is similar to what you suggest. Maxus' approach of going between the inner and outer beads is a new idea, with it's own drawbacks. There is a hole in the strap for the air tube, melted thru to make a reinforcement. A solid grommet is the final plan, once some other details are established.


    Quote Originally Posted by bme107 View Post
    And where does this system become air-tight? (How are you making the strapping air-tight?) I still can't figure that out.
    Good point, but the strapping doesn't hold air - the inner/innertube does that. The sidewalls and strap just hold the shape and direct the force to the side. If you inflate an innertube without a tire, it just keeps growing until it bursts - and never really gets that much pressure, just volume. The tire/beadlock provides strength that lets pressure build by controlling volume.

    It may be possible to rubber coat the strapping and run the beadlock tubeless too - then the outer air tube will be a straight shot, but need to be a pressure fitting where it goes thru the beadlock/strap.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by wadester View Post


    Good point, but the strapping doesn't hold air - the inner/innertube does that. The sidewalls and strap just hold the shape and direct the force to the side. If you inflate an innertube without a tire, it just keeps growing until it bursts - and never really gets that much pressure, just volume. The tire/beadlock provides strength that lets pressure build by controlling volume.
    Understand now.
    Since the strapping is exposed to the sealant bath, how much do think you are going to have to put in the rolling tread? Seems to me that the strapping is going to wick up a ton of it, essentially "sealing" all the fibers. Maybe you can inflate the bead lock on the rim, pretreat the strapping, let it dry and then install the tire with an average dose of sealant.

    For reference, what is the weight of your working model?

  17. #17
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    Staun Products' Pneumatic Internal BeadLocks, Lock Inner and Outer Bead

    Seem to be discontinued so there must have been something wrong with the design but maybe enough to give you some ideas.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by modifier View Post
    Staun Products' Pneumatic Internal BeadLocks, Lock Inner and Outer Bead

    Seem to be discontinued so there must have been something wrong with the design but maybe enough to give you some ideas.
    Yeah, if you go back and read the original thread I reference both the Staun system and Neutech TuBliss for motorcycles tubliss.com. I've actually got a TuBliss running on the rear wheel of my DR350, working as designed and w/o incident at highway speed/30psi and dirt/20psi.

    The Staun system was a simple fabric bag - and from reading some user comments, you had to careful when installing - similar to what I tried to make. The fabric "beads" stretched too much for me, meaning you had to make them small enough to stretch to size - making them difficult to get on the rim.

    Also, from my experience installing both TuBliss and WadeMade - you're installing 4 beads in sequence. TuBliss recommends (and I followed my M/C tire) mounting the beadlock, then stuffing the rim/beadlock between the beads of the tire - so you're coming at it from both sides. I liked putting on 1 tire bead, then the beadlock, then the last tire bead. M/C tires are much stiffer, but I still think that I will try this when I get around to installing the front M/C TuBliss (waiting for some other reason to have to take it apart).
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bme107 View Post
    Understand now.
    Since the strapping is exposed to the sealant bath, how much do think you are going to have to put in the rolling tread? Seems to me that the strapping is going to wick up a ton of it, essentially "sealing" all the fibers. Maybe you can inflate the bead lock on the rim, pretreat the strapping, let it dry and then install the tire with an average dose of sealant.

    For reference, what is the weight of your working model?
    I have considered sealing the strap by hand vs letting it happen. To do it by hand, I would paint on latex mold builder per directions.

    I'm due to take the proto apart this weekend to evaluate the inflation tube. I'll try to get a weight while it's out, but it's not noticeably heavy, and I may have to bring it to work monday to get an accurate weight - since I don't have a weight weenie scale at home
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by wadester;8806667[url=http://tubliss.com/
    tubliss.com[/url]. I've actually got a TuBliss running on the rear wheel of my DR350, working as designed and w/o incident at highway speed/30psi and dirt/20psi.
    I've heard of people running tubeless with dirtbikes. I actually even talked to Stan about trying to get into that market about 10 years ago but I guess he had enough on his plate.

    I don't seem to have trouble with damaging offroad tires even when hitting rock ledges on hillclimbs. I've never gotten a flat but a lot apparently do. Maybe it's because I'm coming from bikes where you have to ride a bit smarter to protect the equipment. Or I'm not going fast enough My dualsport BMW was tubeless from the factory but I've thought about it for the KTMs.

    Tubliss say you can go down to 10psi. Seems like if I get that low the tires get squirmy and what happens if you do tear a hole in the sidewall or something. I guess I could ask them if they will still kind of work with 0 psi. In super rough rocky terrain MooseBalls or the equivalent may still be the best. I'm not sure.

    I also don't live in the north so my Fatbike is used on rocks, roots and dirt and I am happy with 11psi rear and 8.5 in the front. At that pressure my tires never spin on the rim. But in snow I can see how beadlocks could be beneficial.

  21. #21
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    From what I read, TuBliss is all about traction from low pressure - kinda like fatbikes.

    I've got an R1200GS that's got tubeless - but it's just a sealed rim with "bead bumps". Good enough to keep the beads in place with some pressure - and to get stopped if it goes flat. I've ridden it with the back down to 5psi (by the time I noticed it) due to a puncture. Put in a plug and aired it back up w/o ever breaking a bead, and maybe they will always stay put.

    I like the inflatable beadlock idea because your beads positively are held in place under nearly all conditions (puncture all the way thru into tube is the only fail). I read accounts of TuBliss equipped m/c's completing offroad races and finding that a tire was completely flat and had been for some time, and the rider had been unable to tell. I think these were fronts, but still.
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  22. #22
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    Results of crush test on polyethylene tubing: No distortion.

    Noted problem - I trimmed off 2 of the 3 barbs on the fitting because I didn't want that hard of a press fit, but there was cracking of the tubing at that barb. So all barbs will be trimmed - it's still a press fit, and doesn't really have to hold pressure.

    Also, I will put on a plastic washer at the exit end to encourage it to line up rather than roll a bit as it did.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Beadlocks for tubeless.-img_1743s.jpg  

    Beadlocks for tubeless.-img_1744s.jpg  

    Beadlocks for tubeless.-img_1745s.jpg  

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  23. #23
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    Well, I couldn't get the beadlock - but here's the inflator tube, complete with valve cap/nut/washer. Doesn't have the plastic washer and goop on the left end yet:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Beadlocks for tubeless.-beadlockinfltrsm.jpg  

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  24. #24
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    OK! Heres the proto, complete, with tube. The wire was 2 grams, but there wasn't a shraeder valve core in the stem.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Beadlocks for tubeless.-beadlock1s.jpg  

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  25. #25
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    Beautiful work! I am truly impressed.
    Pretty much how I envisioned this a few years ago when 29" suffered such bead seating problems, especially used tubeless.
    My idea was to use a type of tubular tire. It would have required a type of strap to hug the rim firmly enough to not pop out under pressure.

    I am now especially interested in what the "loss" of air volume in the tire does for handling, traction and rolling resitance. I *think* such a setup with have increased rebound capacility for a given static tire pressure. That could mean lower rolling resitance. Or, much better low pressure sidewall behavior.

    I'd love to hear more about how it's been working out!

    J
    Klok - XC - Skate - Ski

  26. #26
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    I haven't had much time to mess with this recently. The working prototype fits only "narrow" rims (large marge) - which I only have on a unicycle.

    I can't say I noticed any change over tube with my limited uni skills. The volume isn't actually reduced, it's just that there is now a higher pressure section, which is maybe 1/3 the total. On a fat tire, the higher pressure is 20-30 versus the 12 psi I'm running on a single wheel.

    Once I get the next(wider) innertire done, I will start riding it on the fatbike. I will have 2 interchangeable rear wheels for the fatback, so that would be the one to test with.

    I read your idea of a tubular in a 29er - but what I find to be the problem is getting pressure to the outer tire. Using a clincher for the inner lets you run the bypass tube between it and the tube. A tubular would not be so easy.
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  27. #27
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    Any thought to working on a tried and true bead lock?

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapow! View Post


    Any thought to working on a tried and true bead lock?
    I have really wondered about this too. Seems like it would be the lightest and least finicky method of beadlocking but at the cost of really not being able to fix the tire in the wild. I mean you would need to pull of at least one entire bead to shove a tube, boot a tire, etc. just to get back out of where you are. But the weight cost of it would be lesser, probably could use really small hardware, possibly aluminum bolts even if they were spaced evenly and had a low overall torque on them.

    Of course it would also require an entirely new paradigm of rim design.
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  29. #29
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    kapow! / rockcrusher - I was thinking that, or a split lock approach. One fastener per bead, and the retaining ring/plate would be like a large "C" with the gap being very small.

    Certainly not a new idea for wide tires. We just haven't done it yet. Let's do it!
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapow! View Post


    Any thought to working on a tried and true bead lock?
    This is certainly a possible, but hard to DIY. I also note that the rockcrawler guys ***** about all the little bolts - and only do one bead/wheel. I figured that the inflatable would be within the capability of a homebrewer.

    Split ring rims? Look up what happens if you don't have the ring seated well, or something else causes it to fail. Bad day. Much damage.
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