Yet Another "What to Buy' Post (XC riding with 8-9 y/o daughter)- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Bonking ... not feelin' well Yet Another "What to Buy' Post (XC riding with 8-9 y/o daughter)

    I started mountain biking last fall and my daughters, ages 5 and 8, watch every weekend with envy as I head out to the local Santa Cruz trails with some of my fellow dads. I am riding mostly XC - typically 1-2K of climbing under 20 miles per outing, mainly singletrack/fire trail. So naturally I'm on the hunt for a xc/trail bike for my 8.5 year old daughter. She is 4'3", 23" inseam...and growing like a weed.


    So I've read dozens of "what to buy" threads and I am on a strict budget with the CFO...basically $700, which is what I sold my laptop for. We have a sort of craigslist upcycle policy on new purchases to keep the GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) in check.


    My 8 year old has been on a Woom4 20" for the past year and is already outgrowing it. I got my 5 year old up and riding on a Priority Start F/W 16" earlier this spring but now she's spinning out and getting tired on the mini-bike. Rather than buying a new rig for my 5 year old, I'm thinking about pushing her up to the woom and getting her big sister a "real" XC hardtail bike. The boutique family-run brands out there look amazing...trailcraft, commencal, etc...but CFO's budget prevents that from happening and they never seem to come up used. My first resort is CL or pinkbike classifieds, but there's not much out there and shipping is dumb. Similar to my plans to move the woom to the 5 year old, a lot of folks tend to pass along high quality kids bikes to younger sibs or friends.



    I am also thinking that 26" on an xxs frame may be better in the long run than a 24" that will be outgrown in no time. The cons I can think of may be size adaptation and bypassing some technique because she'll be able to roll over more stuff. But I made the switch from 26 to 29 and am so much happier plowing vs threading.


    I basically want all the features of boutique without boutique pricing: sub 25 lbs, hydraulic disc brakes, short reach levers, <30T 1x drivetrain, kid friendly geometry, decent front suspension with more than 60mm of travel, etc.etc.etc.


    Current consideration is:


    - Whyte 405 (Found one aftermarket in my budget- 2016 model). Concerns are around 26" wheels (too big?), grip shifter, and longer cranks. Specs say the bike can accommodate 4'1" - 5'0"




    I could also go for the current year Whyte 403 at retail (still concerned about crank length)


    Alternatives include: - Prevelo Zulu 4 (above budget, will need CFO approval)
    - Orbea MX Trail (geometry looks a bit big for her)
    - Frog 62/69

    - Others I haven't considered?


    TL;DR - I want to start bringing my daughter along but am struggling with finding a bike that I won't have to make a ton of mods to in order to get her out shredding and loving it. Help!

  2. #2
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    I think a 24" can get stretched out enough that they can make the jump to xs 27.5". That's what my boys did. Building up a hotrock 24" for my 8yr old daughter right now.

  3. #3
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    My 8.5 year old son is the same height as your daughter. We just moved him to a 26" bike from a 24". The 24" was probably the perfect size for him, but I felt the bike was holding him back. We went with a GT Stomper Ace 26" and are super happy with it. It's actually lighter than the Giant and Trek bikes of the same size. The components are very decent on it as well. It's a little heavier than the 25 lbs you are wishing for, (I weighed it as 28 lbs on my fish scale and to put it into perspective, his old Giant XTC Jr 24" was 33 lbs!) but it is built for children so the geometry works for them. Short reach levers, manual disc brakes, rapid fire shifters (grip shifters suck!), 1x gear train, and front suspension. We got it on sale for $350 CAD so fits within your budget as well.

    We do A LOT of riding and a 30 km day of riding blue, rooty, rocky, technical single track is not out of the norm for us. He loves his new bike!

    Our daughter is almost 11 and we just moved her from the same Giant XTC Jr 24" to an XS 27.5" adult bike. If I were you, I would skip over the 24", go with the 26" and in 2-3 years, upgrade to an adult bike.

  4. #4
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    I dunno, plenty of kids ride bikes too big or too small. I can tell you this tho, the best riding 8yro's I know that are clearing tables bigger than my 4runner or the kids DH racing etc are on appropriately sized bikes. The bigger the bike the harder to learn technique and also the heavier they are. You are skipping the MOST important stuff for kids in an incredibly dangerous sport, just to save some money. Sure they will probably ride fine but I'd argue that at this age it should be about more than that.

    You have a second kid coming up and your daughter is perfectly sized for a nice 24" bike. The Spawn Yama Jama is excellent and about 1100$ or so. The Norco Charger 24" isn't bad, has air fork and is around 750$. Just my opinions tho, so take it for what it is.

  5. #5
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    I donít disagree with Svinyard about an appropriately sized bike. However, I think the importance of how well the bike fits depends on the skill of the rider and the kind of riding that they are doing or plan to do though. If riding mostly downhill or park or dirt jumping, I would definitely say that the size would be an extremely important factor. When it comes to the cross-country riding that we spend 95% of our time doing (and that it sounds like you are looking to do), we have found the longer wheel base and larger tires of the 26Ē to work way better for him than the 24Ē did even though the 24Ē probably fit him better. I actually notice the biggest difference when following him on the downhill sections. His 26Ē bike rolls way faster than his 24Ē did. He feels that the hills are easier to climb as well. Is it possible to rent a 24Ē and 26Ē bike from somewhere to let her try them?
    Last edited by mLeier; 07-26-2018 at 03:45 PM.

  6. #6
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    Orbea MX24 Team Disc - Rigid. Then buy an RST F1srt for it. Or dig up a used 26" 100mm and drop the travel to 80mm. - this is the standard go-to for most people on a tight budget who want ideal geometry on a bike worthy of future upgrades.

    This is the part where the budget gets blown:

    My personal view. As a dad of 9yr old twin girls:

    The 2yrs or so she will get from this bike is perhaps the most valuable riding time you'll ever get with her. It's where she still wants to hang out with you and share experiences together while you explore the trails. Her growth as a rider is going to go straight up. Equipment that won't fail (as often) and is durable and functions well with proper gearing. While being lightweight is important. Or you will forever be tinkering and upgrading. - bite the bullet and get her a proper bike if you can. = Trailcraft

  7. #7
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    The problem with the 26" bikes at 4'3" is the required reach in order to make them fit being so small. Plus, 26"wheels will be a lot heavier, and wheelbase might be too long. Back in the 90's when I worked at a shop we used to say for kids inseam/standover in inches=closest wheel size. So 23" inseam theoretically = 24" wheel sized bike.

    Cleary Bikes has a new 24 and 26" called Scout. A good looking bike (not far out of your range) with 11-42 cassette!

    edit: Weight is up there at 27 pounds in 24" and 28.5 pounds in 26". Crank length looks too long too at 165mm on both but that can be changed pretty easily.

  8. #8
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    Geez 24" bike with 165mm cranks. That could be bad for little hips on long rides. So dumb. I just emailed them my opinion on that. Hoping it's a typo cause that is awful and sad for a kids boutique bike. They should be doing it well enough that the other companies have too.

  9. #9
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    The best bet is to buy someone's outgrown bike off one of the parents here, ie. in the classifieds. With anything not top line, you will be spending money making it right down the line.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesmokingman View Post
    With anything not top line, you will be spending money making it right down the line.
    Or, since they grow so quickly, at that point you buy a new, bigger, possibly better bike because they arenít growing so quickly.

    2 schools of thought I guess. Buy the best of the best now, continue to maintain it and hand it down or sell it later, or, buy good enough for now and worry about spending the big bucks later when you know they are going to stick with it and keep that particular bike for a while. **shrug**. We are obviously of the latter camp but it certainly hasnít held us back.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mLeier View Post
    Or, since they grow so quickly, at that point you buy a new, bigger, possibly better bike because they arenít growing so quickly.


    2 schools of thought I guess. Buy the best of the best now, continue to maintain it and hand it down or sell it later, or, buy good enough for now and worry about spending the big bucks later when you know they are going to stick with it and keep that particular bike for a while. **shrug**. We are obviously of the latter camp but it certainly hasnít held us back.
    Nah, that is just more pain to one's wallet until they stop growing whether it be door 1 or door 2. If I had to do it again, I would not have spent as much during the 24er years which were rather short. However that's going to be different for different people. And now since he's about to outgrow his 26er, he's eyeing my bike lol.

  12. #12
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    24 is a wheel size .... yeah I know it's obvious but bikes with 24 or 26 or whatever then come in vastly different sizes...

    Jnr's XC bike is 2015 Cannondale Race Med (and since they only did M/L ... small)
    It's got huge chain stays and climbs like a demon... and its now back to a long stem.

    His Norco Fluid 24 is huge in comparison....he'll almost certainly go to an adult XS 27.5



    However, I think the importance of how well the bike fits depends on the skill of the rider and the kind of riding that they are doing or plan to do though. If riding mostly downhill or park or dirt jumping, I would definitely say that the size would be an extremely important factor.
    My kids younger mate (who rides a 20" wheel) took his Cannondale that he barely fits down a full on uplift DH.. 20'-30' gap jumps... before I found out and took it away before the bike was broken... (I was busy fixing the Full Suss after Jnr crashed) ..


    I'm not recommending it... but just pointing out rider skill can make a HUGE difference...
    Wheel size makes a HUGE difference ... everywhere... I can roll down fire roads and overtake Jnr pedalling like mad...or just coming out of berms on tech features I speed up much faster... however

    20 miles of climbing 1-2k is different for Jnr on the two bikes and most different depending on wheel/tyre choice. Even though the FS is heavier and slacker the difference between the bikes is more down to wheels and tyres... when he's running his heavy and sticky DH tyres it's slow and he quickly wants more stops... put his XC wheels and 2.1 tyres on the bike and its closer to his XC HT.

    TBH its the same for me... when I run DH tyres and have a lot of pedalling and climbing it starts to feel like your just pushing the wheels round... and extra effort just gets adsorbed... same bid different tyres and it feels like the extra effort is rewarded...
    As a rule of thumb "I always work with it's like an adult but more so"

    It would be interesting to see what a power meter etc. said... but ultimately the real test is it becomes less fun!

  13. #13
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    I know it's not the most loved bike here, but the Diamondback Sync'R can now be ordered for 490 with the 'corporate discount' plus an extra 3% cash back from active junky, and no tax.

    https://www.diamondback.com/sync-r-24

    At that price I don't think anything compares in terms of the component specs. The 26.7 lbs could be reduced a decent bit of rolling weight on the cheap if you can get some lightweight schwalbe tires running tubeless.

    https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/...folding-662617

  14. #14
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    I think overall kids bikes are more a factor of expectations for price.
    $500 wouldn't get a large volume decent adult HT ... and depending what you call decent wouldn't buy a set of forks.

    It seems like realistically the option is buy something to upgrade or spend more or buy something just about passable ?
    Non of these approaches are right or wrong.... though some individual bikes might be.

    Assuming the kid is just about big enough for the bike though then I think the "they only get so long until they grow" approach isn't really a good approach... (but reasons for that are embedded in the other approaches)

    a) Buy something to upgrade ... advantages are low initial outlay - sell if the bike quickly becomes the thing holding them back ... dis-advantages it might end up costing more in the end if they get really into it. You're not binning mid-range stuff.

    b) Buy a more expensive ready to ride.... advantages ... will cost less than a set of upgrades unless you're lucky - disadvantages ... who knows what kids are going to stick at

    c) Get something just OK.... advantages ... solves an immediate need but disadvantages are you can end spending a LOT more and binning half decent stuff... and the extra you spend only gets partial use (depending on siblings and next bike)

    Having been through this I'm more prone to say options a and b .... especially if you can find something used but decent enough to upgrade. At the point the bike is holding the kids back and not providing FUN for everyone I think you just gotta bite the bullet.
    Kids progress so fast that you can end up doing loads of incremental changes that they quickly surpass.

    Although there are some weird geometry frames (perhaps to avoid) half decent kids frames are not where the weight comes from, even less so than adult bikes.
    What probably matters more is knowing and planning do they have disc mounts and does it take a cassette not freewheel... avoid starting upgrading something that's going to be a dead end... (at least economically ...)


    If cost is an issue (and ultimately for most of us with kids it will be) ... my feelings having been through it are minimise unnecessary expenditure and doing dead end upgrades. As it turned out for me I'd have been better off going option b but you don't know the future so that's just rose tinted hindsight....

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mLeier View Post
    Or, since they grow so quickly, at that point you buy a new, bigger, possibly better bike because they arenít growing so quickly.

    2 schools of thought I guess. Buy the best of the best now, continue to maintain it and hand it down or sell it later, or, buy good enough for now and worry about spending the big bucks later when you know they are going to stick with it and keep that particular bike for a while. **shrug**. We are obviously of the latter camp but it certainly hasnít held us back.
    My kids were on the 24" bike size the longest. That's the reality in our case, for what its worth if you are looking to limp through 24" thinking they will be on 26"/27.5" longer - they probably won't.

    Our son was on 26" for 2 seasons, 24 for 3 seasons, and 20" for 2 seasons. We tried to minimize 20" time since the bikes are all tanks and mods not worth it. So looking back the 24" bike would be the one we'd do over again and spend the most money. At the tweener/teenage years they are watching youtube, reading Pinkbike, influenced by pro riders etc. so it is getting more expensive.

    You guys and gals are lucky to have all these cool light kids bike options now. For my son we had to modify to make a lighter bike, the current crop of kids bikes didn't exist - (aside from Isla Bikes which didn't have a USA presence). Since we were able to hand down, the money spent on initially modifying our sons bike was well worth it. And that's been our mentality, but even if we had one kid I'd still want to give him the opportunity of riding a high quality bike.

    We're now on 27.5, and my son grew 4 inches this year (14). If you think "don't spend a lot of money on the 24" wheel size now is bad, wait until yours hit their teenage years. Don't expect a bike to last a year in some cases, like we are experiencing now. We bought him a S size 27.5 in October 2017 and he outgrew that bike by June. And it was a $3500 bike, new. I was blown away how almost every ride he was raising the seat post by a cm or more. But it will be ridden in a few years so I am not opposed to spending money, they both love to ride.

  16. #16
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    Will still be too big for your daughter but there's a Trailcraft Timber for sale on CL that's close to your CFO's budget.
    https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/bik...655891150.html

    Yet Another &quot;What to Buy' Post (XC riding with 8-9 y/o daughter)-00c0c_9akiqvzrnru_1200x900.jpg
    If you can't play, display.

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    Dang! That Trailcraft is a nice find. If I thought they'd ship it, I'd probably find a way to buy that thing myself!

    It's hard to add much to the current discussion but I'll do my best. Considering they're relatively new to riding, from the sound of it, relative to the size of my own kiddo a couple years ago, a 26" wheeled bike would be a BIG bike. I bought Si's Trailcraft when he was right about the size your daughter is now. He's way ahead of the growth curve and has been for years, but even 18+ mos later, that 24" still fits him very well. He's roughly 4'8" now. He could totally step up to a 26" or similar at this point, but the 24 isn't too small. Now, all of that is meant to hopefully give some comfort in the fact that she's probably not going to outgrow a 24" wheeled bike as fast as you think... AND it's probably the perfect wheel size for her right now. Si's best friends parents weren't the bike snobs I am, and went with the "he'll grow out of a 24 in a year" approach and the kid ended up with an XS Trek 26" that even a year later is way too big. He has to slam the seat all the way down, and the dimensions are way stretched out for someone < 5' tall.

  18. #18
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    Update: I was spamming refresh on pinkbike and ebay and found a 2015 trailcraft pineridge deore build for under a grand. It's the earlier setup with a 2x front crank with square taper, but Brett at trailcraft had a bolt on 28t front ring with 140mm crank arms that he shipped me for less. The clincher was ebay's special promo yesterday that chopped 15% off the purchase price for a savings of $100. Taking everyone's advice to heart, I would rather invest the money now, knowing my younger one will inherit a great bike and they'll both develop a love of riding if they don't have to log a 30lb clunker up the hills. I'd been communicating with Brett from trailcraft off and on and he agrees that finding a pristine pineridge 24 shipped for under a grand is a great score!

    I'll post some pics once it's up, including the final weight after the new cranks are on...should drop another half pound.

    I also need to introduce myself on the other forum. Guess I'd better jump on that.
    Last edited by SantaCruzBradley; 08-09-2018 at 11:20 AM. Reason: redundancies

  19. #19
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    Man you'll love that thing. Si's Pineridge has been money well spent, even with our tight budget. His is the same config as what you're talking about. The old round tube frame, with the 2x+bash guard. The Rocket Ron's set up tubeless in about 10 seconds flat. So take that into account as well.

  20. #20
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    I can't see how you can go wrong vs spending up to $700 on a new bike or something too big.
    Enjoy the riding...

  21. #21
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    Nice score!

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SantaCruzBradley View Post
    I am on a strict budget with the CFO...basically $700 ... getting her big sister a "real" XC hardtail bike. The boutique family-run brands out there look amazing...trailcraft, commencal, etc...but CFO's budget prevents that from happening

    - Frog 62/69
    I was very impressed with the Frog's at this year's Sea Otter. When they say the suspension forks are truly designed and setup for a kid's weight -- they mean it.

    If you can some how swing the budget up another $100-$150 I'd go this route. Don't forget you'll get two uses out of it, and in my expereience you can sell used good kid's bikes in the Bay Area for a good price. So in the end you'd have spent say $100 on each kid. As you say these bikes never come up on Craigslist.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SantaCruzBradley View Post
    - Whyte 405 (Found one aftermarket in my budget- 2016 model). Concerns are around 26" wheels (too big?), grip shifter, and longer cranks. Specs say the bike can accommodate 4'1" - 5'0"
    I don't understand everyone's concern and dislike for grip shifters. My daughter's 24" MTB and road bikes had grip shifters, and her 26" straight bar road bike has SRAM X9 triggers. So she had experience with both types. When I built her 26" MTB she had her choice of SRAM GX twist or trigger 11-speed shifters. She picked the twist-grip as her un-influenced choice.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSJ1973 View Post
    Plus, 26"wheels will be a lot heavier
    Is that really the case? There are few light-weight 24" pre-built wheels around. But it is easy to source used light-weight 26" XC race wheels.

    Then when it comes to tires, 24" is even harder to find light-weight folding (kelvar not wire bead) 24" tires. Again, something easy to find in 26". 24x2.1" Schwalbe Rocket Ron is the only one I know of.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_UNIX View Post
    Is that really the case? There are few light-weight 24" pre-built wheels around. But it is easy to source used light-weight 26" XC race wheels.

    Then when it comes to tires, 24" is even harder to find light-weight folding (kelvar not wire bead) 24" tires. Again, something easy to find in 26". 24x2.1" Schwalbe Rocket Ron is the only one I know of.
    True, there are more readily available 26" rims and tires but in this example the O.P.'s daughter is 4'3" tall and a budget of $700.

    A 24" Rocket Ron and Crest rim will indeed be lighter than a 26" Rocket Ron and Crest Rim when comparing apples to apples.

    You can force you kid on a slightly bigger wheel size, but please, not a 4'3" kid when they are at the beginning height for most 24" bikes and just coming off 20".

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    Is that Frog 62 the king of entry level 750-ish$ hardtails in 24"? I think it might be. Most all of them have significant compromises screwy cranks, poor chainring, limited 7 or 8sp cassette. It looks like the Frog bike might have nailed almost all of those or gotten close enough! I wonder how hard to get one in the US is? Even the cassette is a 12-36 with 32t ring. Sub 25lbs. Pretty well thought out!

    Better than Norco Charger, Better than Rocky Mountain Vertex, Better than Orbea, better than Cleary. All those bikes come with significant flaws. Looks like Prevelo is doing an updated Zulu 4 in the coming weeks that might compete depending on price. We'll see.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by svinyard View Post
    Is that Frog 62 the king of entry level 750-ish$ hardtails in 24"? I think it might be. Most all of them have significant compromises screwy cranks, poor chainring, limited 7 or 8sp cassette. It looks like the Frog bike might have nailed almost all of those or gotten close enough! I wonder how hard to get one in the US is? Even the cassette is a 12-36 with 32t ring. Sub 25lbs. Pretty well thought out!

    Better than Norco Charger, Better than Rocky Mountain Vertex, Better than Orbea, better than Cleary. All those bikes come with significant flaws. Looks like Prevelo is doing an updated Zulu 4 in the coming weeks that might compete depending on price. We'll see.
    It looks like the same frame as their hybrid with a suspension fork stuck on... you can buy the RST F1rst for $150 so hard to see why they have stuck their own fork on?

    As you say have to wait and see.. frogs are common here and generally a cheaper but slightly less desirable than Islabikes except they donít have Gripshift, perhaps they stepped up? Though 4 finger brakes makes me think not

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-XtC View Post
    It looks like the same frame as their hybrid with a suspension fork stuck on... you can buy the RST F1rst for $150 so hard to see why they have stuck their own fork on?
    I don't believe an off the shelf RST F1rst will be as tuned for a 25-35 kg (55-70 lb.) rider as the custom Frog suspension forks. As I mentioned, the forks on the Frogs demoed at Sea Otter 2018 were well tuned and appropriate for such light-weight riders.

    From your many posts, I know you'd know what to do to a RST F1rst to be appropriate for such riders, but many wouldn't (or wouldn't want to spend the time on it).

    I believe the Frog to be a great off-the-shelf offering.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-XtC View Post
    ..., perhaps they stepped up? Though 4 finger brakes makes me think not
    The Frog rep I spoke to made it pretty clear every component choice was for a reason (and usually with experience behind it). If you get a chance I'd ask about the 4-finger brake leavers. For hydraulic brakes one wonders why 4-finger leavers. Maybe they've found younger riders have more confidence when using all fingers?? One really would think hydraulic brakes only need 2-fingers... maybe too many non-biking parents think the kids need to use their whole hand to brake reliably?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_UNIX View Post
    I don't believe an off the shelf RST F1rst will be as tuned for a 25-35 kg (55-70 lb.) rider as the custom Frog suspension forks. As I mentioned, the forks on the Frogs demoed at Sea Otter 2018 were well tuned and appropriate for such light-weight riders.

    From your many posts, I know you'd know what to do to a RST F1rst to be appropriate for such riders, but many wouldn't (or wouldn't want to spend the time on it).

    I believe the Frog to be a great off-the-shelf offering.
    You donít need to do anything to the F1rst, itís designed for kids weights. Just set the sag ... Itís pretty basic but doesnít require any mods which is why Frog using something else is a mystery..


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_UNIX View Post
    The Frog rep I spoke to made it pretty clear every component choice was for a reason (and usually with experience behind it). If you get a chance I'd ask about the 4-finger brake leavers. For hydraulic brakes one wonders why 4-finger leavers. Maybe they've found younger riders have more confidence when using all fingers?? One really would think hydraulic brakes only need 2-fingers... maybe too many non-biking parents think the kids need to use their whole hand to brake reliably?
    That reason is usually someone in Finance... itís then spun into marketing bull and spouted off.. Frogs main competitor, Isla has been spouting similar bull for years.. kids donít benefit from suspension, or disc brakes, canít use trigger shift .. which of course they now with the exception of trigger shift they have quietly forgotten.

    Frogs biggest marketing has always been ďitís like a slightly heavier version of an Isla but without gripshift so you wonít need to change the shifter and itís cheaper.

    For years, Isla claim kids prefer gripshift and Iím sure they have had their legal department check this and they somewhere have a test of one or two very carefully selected kids they paid to tick a box. Itís business, itís no different than some expensive pharmaceutical company claiming their product is better than the generic supermarket one. In many cases itís not only the active ingredients that are identical but the tablet or whatever is physically produced on the same production lines and absolutely identical up to the paper packaging... if you understand the packaging there is a set of codes show the factory and batch in the uk at least... yet they make claims on how people prefer it and find it ďmore effectiveĒ or ďfaster actingĒ etc.

    In other words, 4 finger braking ... quite frankly I donít care what marketing BS they spin.... except I do.. I canít believe Iím using a US company as an example against a UK one but at least transition admit the fork on the Ripcord can be upgraded.. they donít quite go so far as to say ďwe put this on because itís as cheap as we could find and you should throw it away and put something decent on before ridingĒ but they at least acknowledge and donít come up with false reasons and itís unlikely to result in injury like 4 finger braking because they fitted cheap brakes and then pretended it was for a reason other than thatís the cheapest they could find.




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  32. #32
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    p.s

    I don't think Frog are bad.... just they are a company, their aim is to make money and like most bike companies marketing is a separate thing to design and engineering.


    It might sound new and exciting perhaps in the US but Frog are pretty common here on their home turf.

    Perhaps the most exciting thing they did (from a UK perspective) was they pushed Isla to go that extra step.

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