What bike? Hardcharging 7/8 year old...20/24"- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    What bike? Hardcharging 7/8 year old...20/24"

    My boy is turning 8 this month, 50" tall, 22" inseam. He's a hardcharger, been riding since 4, and races BMX too. He's been riding a Specialized riprock 20", but the geo is goofy...and he's really getting into MTBing more, esp downhill/berms/jumps. Feel it's time for a different bike to keep up with him as he's quickly picking up skills. He's kind of between 20-24" sizing right now, but I'm worried about putting him on too big a bike right now. Not sure how much more we'll get out of a 20" though.

    I'm willing to get a him bike that even just lasts a year or two, so thinking maybe a better factory build 20" like a Spawn Yama Jama, FLOW, or Commencal Meta. I just don't want him to feel awkward on a larger bike...

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
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    50" is right at the bottom of a 24". It's certainly manageable for a strong kid. You're on the right track with the bike. Spawn, Flow 24", Lil Shredder, Commencal. Those would be up his alley. However the sizing across those bikes will vary a little bit. The Flow has adjustability. And I'm pretty sure Lil Shredder will make the bike whatever size you want. Their sizing chart shows a variety. Check the specs. My girls were about 52" when they first got onto their Yama Jama's and now, 6mos later I've extended the seat post at least 2 inches. Both from slight growth and more comfort mounting/dismounting the bike with the seat higher.

  3. #3
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    I don't have measurements ... well somewhere I may but like SactoGeoff say's sizing changes a lot and against the "don't put them on too big a bike" I've always put him on a bigger bike when possible based on him trying similar bikes... (without being silly) because 1-2 months and he's grown anyway. It's possibly a definition of "too big" though.

    The main question though is what do you like riding, what is available and what does your son want to ride... and where do all three meet ?? Given he's already racing BMX it seems he might want to try some MTB racing as well and he's comfortable on berms and jumps.

    With 24" you are looking more at specific purposes for many of the bikes so if you don't mind and can afford to pay for uplift or don't mind pushing up the hill then there are bikes for that... e.g. Kona Stinky... whereas if you want to pedal up the hills then there are different bikes. (Although this is true to a point for 20" the majority of kids skills, endurance, weight, height etc. seem to kick in on the 24 phase)

    These bikes come in with different sizes as well as capabilities most specifically their ability to be pedalled for miles. The trade-offs are just much bigger with kids bikes than adult bikes.

    Ultimately we ended up with 2 bikes (probably not the answer you want ..)... one is an Full Suss "Enduro Rig" (getting on for being an equivalent 160mm-170mm travel adult .. so not full on DH ) and the other is out and out XC HT. The XC weighs about 20 pounds and the "FS Enduro" starts at 4-5 pounds heavier but really depends on tyres. (a DH tyre can weigh 2+lbs by itself) .. even in light spec the difference in riding is pretty huge in terms of what we can do and have fun. (Under the **** I put some stuff which affects us .. but that might not be your local riding or motivations)

    Pretty common for most 24ers is many manufacturers try and get away with adult cranks... (if smaller ones). This wrecks any ability to pedal for longer distances.
    The main shame on this is that somewhere on the 24 they develop the ability to "go out and ride" with adults without it being some sort of special "kid friendly trip".

    Obviously a 7-8yr old isn't going to keep up with a race fit adult going full out... but they can keep up with a moderately fit adult going out for a days cycling to the point you don't need to go painfully slow and only do a few miles.

    There are of course two endpoints... spend $$$$ on some really nice bike or buy something cheap (but not Walmart) and do it up (or not).

    For DH you have a choice of Full Suss ... from pedal-able to ridiculously DH only (and then some). Mondraker do a 200mm+ travel kids bike but I can't see it being pedalled anywhere other than pointing down a BIG hill in a bike park and most of the top kid shredders are using 100-120mm travel... riding adult pro-lines.

    Something FS pedal able you have Transition Ripcord... which is also done frame only and cheaper Norco Fluid 24. At the more expensive end you have the Lil' Shredders ...
    The Norco needs new cranks as it comes with 152mm and its also a larger frame than the transition. The stock fork works but is heavy... and ours came with long lever brakes that I can't use for 1 finger braking, let alone a 7-8yr old. The advantage is hopefully this will last until they are on a adult XS. Also the rear shock works for kids weights... due to the leverage they designed the ML3 tune works really well but the Monarch is so small its got no lock-out... (152x53)

    The Transition is smaller ..... still comes with a crappy if better fork... but you can buy frame only. I think POAH had the shock tuned... (but I can't remember) but wither way he bought before the frame only was available and essentially chucked everything BUT

    In the middle you have Trailcraft with their 100/100mm Maxwell going into the Pineridge for XC... the Pineridge is pretyy nice and the price is actually pretty cheap for the spec.
    You'd need to crawl every deal for a long time to get the same spec parts. The huge selling point is they sell a bike ready to be ridden with no mods necessary.

    Islabikes also do two ranges... though I'd not really go with the premium on their standard range except they do kid sized cranks.

    If budget/preference is hard tail....
    You can buy any number of mid spec HT bikes... for my money right now the Orbea 24 is good value and all round geo.

    Ultimately the frames of anything (HT) half decent are not that much different in weight between different bike companies... Pull off the parts and the frames are different in geo but they aren't heavy enough for weight to be a big factor.
    What does change is what you would want to change before your kid even rides.

    Overwhelmingly the cheaper HT's come with 152mm/155mm cranks. (Which is fine for BMX but not pedalling seated).
    Next gotcha is basically a choice between disc or not... with exceptions like the Orbea that put disc mounts on all their 24 frames regardless of if that model has disk brakes or not.
    Obviously disc brakes need disc hubs.... so this is the next question.
    If you live somewhere dry its less of an issue.... where we live its dual... partly better braking but also getting rim brakes to work in the wet with kids hands seems to include adjusting them so far in that as soon as the wheel is even 1/16th out of true the whole thing gets horrible.

    Along with the hub is the cassette OR freewheel.... your choice of gears using a freewheel is very limited and they are intrinsically heavier. You can of course build a new rear wheel.... but that launches you down the rabbit hole.

    Upgrading a cheaper bike to something like Trailcraft is going to cost a lot more than the price of a ready to ride bike unless you have a big spares bin and/or take along time buying 50% discounted when available. (By which time your kid has grown)

    Not to mention yet getting a decent fork that works for kids weights. Some of the FS bikes use a 26" for with the geo built for that... part of this geo change is a shorter head tube.... this is more important than you might first think because trying to buy decent used or even new forks to modify for kids is not easy. (Mostly 26" XC is discontinued and you only need a XC fork for a kids DH fork - then you have tapered or not and axles)

    You can fit a tapered fork IF you use an external BB adapter AND you have room in the head tube! Cane Creek do one and its adds 10mm and Hope do one that adds 12mm....
    SID aluminium steerers have longer tapers than carbon.... so the one that fits is dependant on your head tube... (this is less of an issue on adult bids as the head tube is longer AND adding 10-12mm less of a geo change)

    You can also add a rear adapter for disc brakes... A2Z do one.... will it fit the frame and such is a YMMV


    My 2c is if I was going to upgrade a half decent bike I'd buy used... or heavily discounted but with the bits you can't really change in place (disc tabs) and go into it eyes open ....

    I got Jnr's XC bike heavily discounted (<50%) and with the forks I wanted and disc tabs. It still cost a lot to then modify it... I spent more money trying to go in-between .... like buying cheap disc wheels ... then eventually just ending up buying the ones i should have got from the beginning. Ultimately the chain stays are HUGE and it will only ever be a XC bike. His FS I bought used... but the wheels were heavy and narrow rims - and all the parts of the wheel were poor...hubs/rims and spokes. I replaced these with something half the weight and wider rims ... but we also were able to use his lighter XC wheels until I got these discounted

    Or go for something ready to ride.

    The cost of trying to change the mid-range to a bike for shredding can be a lot higher than buying something ready to rip... and what is not ideal but perfectly OK as a compromise on adult bikes will tend to be really crippling on a kids bike.



    **********
    Where we live is mostly XC type trails (90% of trails could be on a technical WC XC circuit) or very short DH with push-up... and we have to travel 1 hour+ to get a half decent DH with uplift and then it's prohibitively expensive. (15 weekends paying uplift would buy a top of the range bike)

    Anyway ... the point really is we can ride our local trails for miles/hours together.
    From a riding perspective I don't really have to put any special consideration into planning a route with a kid vs riding with adult friends (well perhaps other than making sure there is ice-cream rather than beer at the end).

    The biggest consideration is which bike....

    This completely changes our riding experience...
    We did a local trail Saturday and Jnr decided he's take the Full Suss but with his DH tyres... it was a pretty disappointing ride. He just went really slowly on flats and uphills .. extra drag on the big grippy tyres, a few pounds extra ... a bit of pedal bob climbing perhaps... It was the first hot weekend as well... but I thin mainly going faster was just too much effort. He weighs 1/3rd of my weight .. and all those extra pounds plus extra drag and rotating weight just added up.

    Whereas we usually do 2 circuits (about 26 miles) on our local and I don't need to wait much we did one circuit so slowly it was painful at times. This is just our local day out... easily within his capability and we'd usually time a circuit and try and beat it 2nd lap if he wan't a challenge.

    He's done the same course before on his Full Suss and more or less kept up on climbs and flat bits but with his lighter wheels and tyres... neither of us had much fun. He was adamant he was using his DH wheels... and it wasn't going to be fun if I forced him to take the lighter wheels... he'd just have sulked.. but ultimately a great day's riding was ruined by his choice of bike.

    On the other hand the weekend before he had a DH race... we had a fabulous weekend with his Enduro bike in DH configuration... (with uplift). He got a 3rd place which he wouldn't have come close to on his XC bike...

    I rode exactly the same bike for both... (140mm front and 130mm rear) .. same everything but I'm 3x his weight! I feel a bit under-biked on some of the runs and sometimes riding locally on a hill I'd love to press a magic button and have my carbon XC bike... or less draggy tyres etc. but it doesn't ruin the fun.


    A few weeks ago I took my aggressive steel hard tail out with Jnr and one of his bike bud dies to the exact same place. Although it's still nowhere approaching the weight ratio for me it was somewhere between a challenge and painful keeping up... partly I took it to get more exercise and partly to try some new jumps I thought would be fun.. but the climbs sucked the fun and by the time I got to the top I was too exhausted to enjoy the jumps on the way down.

  4. #4
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    I don't know how much of a hurry you are in, but Flow bikes are releasing a 20/24 fs frame. Looks pretty rad. From what I hear it is pretty ground-breaking. I have ordered the 20" ht. Give them a call. May help solve the problem.

  5. #5
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    Fit it everything. It's so hard being patient, waiting and getting the next size up bike for the little ones. We call it the bailability factor when the kids need to put a foot down comfortably and quickly when the terrain becomes a little too technical or steep. And, we have always erred on the side of too small as opposed to too big. Good luck!

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    I'm slow and fat and ride a Salsa Beargrease all year round, so super long days aren't really a thing for us haha. I'm not really an upgrade nerd either, I would rather ride than fiddle...until something needs maintenance or doesn't work anymore.
    He's got tons of skill/energy/endurance...but I feel his Riprock is holding him back geometry wise, and he's not quite big enough for a 24". That's mostly the dilemma. Here in WI a nice hardtail does just fine..so not considering a FS esp for him at the "He's growing" pricepoint. However, buying him a $1000 hardtail that fits him now feels like the way to go.
    I've gone over sizing in many models, and he's right in the middle/upper middle of most recommendations for 20", and at the very bottom or not quite yet on most 24". Thinking I can sell his Riprock for decent money, buy a good 20" HT even if it only fits 6mths to a year, and turn that one for good money too (nothing decent ever used around here for kids). Then get him into a 24' when he's actually sized for that. I know as an adult I hate riding a bike that's too big...and as a 60lb kid, controlling a larger than comfortable bike is undoubtedly a challenge.
    We're not really thinking racing at this point, as he's busy with plenty of other stuff...but just getting out riding and having fun. He's just a fan of ripping the downhills

  7. #7
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    put your son on a bike and see if he fits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by POAH View Post
    put your son on a bike and see if he fits.
    that would be sweet, except the bikes I'm shopping are online only. So it goes...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by kweetech View Post
    I'm slow and fat and ride a Salsa Beargrease all year round, so super long days aren't really a thing for us haha. I'm not really an upgrade nerd either, I would rather ride than fiddle...until something needs maintenance or doesn't work anymore.
    He's got tons of skill/energy/endurance...but I feel his Riprock is holding him back geometry wise, and he's not quite big enough for a 24". That's mostly the dilemma. Here in WI a nice hardtail does just fine..so not considering a FS esp for him at the "He's growing" pricepoint. However, buying him a $1000 hardtail that fits him now feels like the way to go.
    I've gone over sizing in many models, and he's right in the middle/upper middle of most recommendations for 20", and at the very bottom or not quite yet on most 24". Thinking I can sell his Riprock for decent money, buy a good 20" HT even if it only fits 6mths to a year, and turn that one for good money too (nothing decent ever used around here for kids). Then get him into a 24' when he's actually sized for that. I know as an adult I hate riding a bike that's too big...and as a 60lb kid, controlling a larger than comfortable bike is undoubtedly a challenge.
    We're not really thinking racing at this point, as he's busy with plenty of other stuff...but just getting out riding and having fun. He's just a fan of ripping the downhills
    3 choices for a good 20" for $1k that I found.

    Flow, Spawn and Commencal. Spawn has the best fork. Seriously, check out the Flow bike that is 20" but converts to a 24". Its fs but may solve your prob and you dont have to buy 2 bikes. Those were my top 2 followed by Commencal for ht $1k 20" bikes. Both the YJ and the Flow were absolute beasts. They are really shredworthy kids bikes. Flow is a smaller company for good and bad.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by kweetech View Post
    that would be sweet, except the bikes I'm shopping are online only. So it goes...
    Imagine if we had away to try bikes in a store then compare the geometry for another bike. Just think how amazing that would be.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by POAH View Post
    Imagine if we had away to try bikes in a store then compare the geometry for another bike. Just think how amazing that would be.
    Sure would be.
    Unfortunately, the bike shop brands make shit for kids bikes, and the shops around here don't carry anything remotely similar to the bikes I'm looking at. So yeah.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by nwa bike dad View Post
    3 choices for a good 20" for $1k that I found.

    Flow, Spawn and Commencal. Spawn has the best fork. Seriously, check out the Flow bike that is 20" but converts to a 24". Its fs but may solve your prob and you dont have to buy 2 bikes. Those were my top 2 followed by Commencal for ht $1k 20" bikes. Both the YJ and the Flow were absolute beasts. They are really shredworthy kids bikes. Flow is a smaller company for good and bad.
    It's either going to be the YJ or Commencal Meta 20 for now I think...probably the Spawn as he likes neon green
    Resale should be good when it's time to turn it...and he can move up when he's ready.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by kweetech View Post
    It's either going to be the YJ or Commencal Meta 20 for now I think...probably the Spawn as he likes neon green
    Resale should be good when it's time to turn it...and he can move up when he's ready.
    I've heard the YJ is an absolute monster and you won't be disappointed. They are expanding their bike offerings to larger wheel sized bikes as well. We have a 16" Yoji for our 3 year old. Can't believe how well those bikes are made. I did a LOT of research and Spawn and Flow came out well ahead of anyone else. It wasn't even close really.

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    Here in WI a nice hardtail does just fine..so not considering a FS esp for him
    ....
    He's just a fan of ripping the downhills
    By ripping the downhills you mean trail riding - not actual Downhill MTB?

    Unfortunately, the bike shop brands make shit for kids bikes, and the shops around here don't carry anything remotely similar to the bikes I'm looking at.
    I think what POAH is saying is try him on whatever they have locally....so log as you can get the geo numbers for the bikes he tries in a store.. even Walmart you will have a much better idea on sizing. You can compare the numbers to online.

    We actually tried a 24" first at a trail centre one weekend. (We just tried him on one of the kids hire bikes after we'd been riding) I really don't think at the time he was close to 50" ... he is still a LOT under 60lbs...

    His best cycling buddy is the smallest in his year .. and he's riding a 24 medium sized frame since he was 7. He tried my kids 24" small one weekend and had the saddle a few inches out straight off.

    A 24" wheel will make a huge difference ... just down to the wheel size it will roll better over obstacles..and wheelsize is not the only factor of the size of a bike. A medium sized adult is a medium sized adult whether it has 26", 27.5" or 29" wheels... in the same way there are bigger and smaller 24" bikes.

    The Trailcraft sizing starts at 60".... This is ready to ride in every way if you don't want to mess about.
    Yes it's over $1000 but it will also last size-wise more than this summer (at a stretch up to adult XS size) and has quality components that should also last.

    https://www.trailcraftcycles.com/pro...-pineridge-24/

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    check out the Flow bike that is 20" but converts to a 24"..... Those were my top 2 followed by Commencal for ht $1k 20" bikes.
    Flow seem to have solved a problem that doesn't exist ???
    There have been other convertible sized bikes that have suffered from awful geometry as a function of the ability to convert them ...

    It looks like Flow solved the Geo or at least made a good stab... the question is why ??? It's cool engineering... I'm just missing the practical reason when the frame is such a small cost part of the bike...

    Commencal for example sell kids frames from $50-$100 to give a price point (for their 12"-20" wheel range) ... but you are still going to need new wheels regardless..you can't magically make a wheel grow. It saves moving the group set across I guess ?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by kweetech View Post
    Sure would be.
    Unfortunately, the bike shop brands make shit for kids bikes, and the shops around here don't carry anything remotely similar to the bikes I'm looking at. So yeah.

    you're totally missing the point. The make of bike is irrelevant, its the numbers that make the frame. if bike A fits then look at the numbers of the bikes you are looking at online to see if they match or too big/small. I really didn't think I would have to explain it that simply for you.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by POAH View Post
    you're totally missing the point. The make of bike is irrelevant, its the numbers that make the frame. if bike A fits then look at the numbers of the bikes you are looking at online to see if they match or too big/small. I really didn't think I would have to explain it that simply for you.
    Let me break this down for you. Bikes in stores here donít have the same geometry/sizing as the bikes Iím looking at.
    It would be like trying on a loafer to see if a running shoe fits correctly.
    You can get the basics with simple measurements sure, but fit is fit...and specific to the bike. Simple.

    What is your kid riding? Are they on a 20 or 24?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-XtC View Post
    By ripping the downhills you mean trail riding - not actual Downhill MTB?

    Downhill jump lines on local trails. Quite a bit of trail riding, but air/berms too...along with the climbs

  19. #19
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    Just for reference. This is my 52inch kid (She has a twin who's 53inches) wearing FiveTen Freeriders and using Chromag Radar Pedals. I mention this because the soles of FivTens are thick and the pedals aren't exactly "low profile".

    This is a 24" YamaJama with 140mm cranks (they come stock with 155?)

    The reach isnt a problem. The seat is far from slammed. The bars are cut down about 2 inches from stock. I think the fit is certainly within the zone for my kid. And @ 50inches for your kid, I think it would be too.

    Hope this helps with visualization perspective.

    (She got 2nd place in the U10 girls in case anyone is interested

    What bike? Hardcharging 7/8 year old...20/24&quot;-jacksen-race.jpg

    What bike? Hardcharging 7/8 year old...20/24&quot;-jacksen-race2.jpg

  20. #20
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    Here is my kid on a 20" Yama Jama. (the fork is unreal, I wouldn't buy any other 20" unless he needed a Park bike like Commencal. Why when the 20" Spawn is near perfect). The Geo is dialed too

    My kid is about 49in tall and about 20in inseam. Your kid could be fine on a 24in probably, especially if he already rides hard. If you are going 24in, we are building a custom 24lb ripcord. It would be a perfect fit for your kid and a FS. Stock bike is real heavy tho.

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/6KtvGd8zZsTnyT7x8
    Last edited by svinyard; 05-09-2018 at 06:58 PM.

  21. #21
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    Let me break this down for you. Bikes in stores here donít have the same geometry/sizing as the bikes Iím looking at.
    It would be like trying on a loafer to see if a running shoe fits correctly.
    It's still going to be a lot closer than you will get otherwise, especially on a HT.
    You can get the basics with simple measurements sure, but fit is fit...and specific to the bike. Simple.
    Fit is what it is that month ... it will change. Legs and Torso often growing at different rates.

    I swapped stem 3x and spacers on the steerer 3x on Jnr's 24HT since he was 6 to today's 8... sure it handles differently but other than swapping frame every few months it's the reality. The seat post that got cut down and was nearly slammed is now too short.

    On his FS which is large than the Ripcord he's using all 125mm of dropper.

    Just get him on a HT for sizing. Shop/trail hire place etc.
    It's not that important about the exact size/geo to test size, its not to buy just to compare with other sized 24'rs. You can account for them being different geo when buying and swap a stem etc. if needed.


    I have 1m22.5cm/51cm written down but not dated but I think 90% this is when looking for the 24" .. which is just over 48" height and 20" inside leg.

    And @ 50inches for your kid, I think it would be too.
    Your kid could be fine on a 24in probably, especially if he already rides hard.
    I'd agree ...

  22. #22
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    Islabikes creig 24 or Prevelo 24

    The right weight, geometry, crank size and suspension.

    My son is 50" tall, 7 years old and fairly aggressive. His Islabikes Creig is working just fine.

  23. #23
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    ended up with a Commencal Meta 20+...thanks!
    Decided to stay on a 20" for a bit longer, and he likes the plus tires...

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