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  1. #1
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    No good Evil Bikes customer service warranty experiences - read and beware

    Hello everyone -

    im posting this to facebook, Pinkbike, MTBR, and will be creating a public facebook page to hopefully allow others like myself who have had experiences dealing with Evil Bikes customer service warranty claims, share those experiences publicly, in order to give insight to our experiences and prevent the same from happening to other people.

    MY STORY - (yes its long but read it to understand everything)

    Bio - 31 yrs old, 205-210lbs, enduro/AM/DH racer/rider. been riding mountain bikes since about 2008

    So i built my first Evil Wreckoning in early 2017, rode it part time as i had 2 other trail bikes at the time which i rode more often than the Wreckoning.

    fast forward to October 2017.

    it was a friday practice before a 2 day enduro event in burnet, Texas. i pre rode all the stages that day, didn't have any crashes, and on my way back to the parking lot, i just so happened to look down and notice a big super clean crack on the underside of my down tube, right in the middle between the head set and bottom bracket.

    as it was painfully obvious this wasn't related to a crash or indicated a crash in any way whatsoever, i wasn't worried at all that Evil Bikes would cover the front triangle under warranty. I call them the same day, set up an RMA, packed up the entire frame and shipped it to them at Evil HQ.

    I was working with Mike, the customer service/warranty rep for Evil Bikes. We talked on the phone, he asked me a bunch of questions about my weight, riding style, blah blah blah, he sounded thoroughly interested in getting to the bottom of what happened to cause the frame failure, and then i didn't hear from him at all for about 2 weeks. He would not reply to my emails and we had zero contact.

    i finally got a call from mike, we started talking about the verdict of my frame and the solution.

    this is not fabrication of words - this is truly what was said -

    Mike says - "i have determined that this was caused by a crash, because i was able to replicate similar damage to a frame using a baseball bat, which cracked the carbon and didn't make any marks to the exterior finish of the bike. the crash replacement cost will be +/- $650."

    ***are you ****ing kidding me? you mean to tell me that the scientific procedure happening at Evil Bikes HQ to determine warranty claim validity is HITTING BIKES WITH BASEBALL BATS?!?!?!?! I'm not expecting a bunch of scientists with white coats and beakers with green bubbling fluids and charts and graphs and shit in the basement of evil, but sure as hell expect more than hitting bikes with wooden logs like a bunch of geico cavemen***

    i flat out disagreed and said that didn't make any sense, and that i also expected premium customer service when I'm buying a $3k bike frame. if someone sells you a $3k bike frame, they'd better be sure it was accidental damage before just brushing it off their shoulder and sticking you with a $650 bill!

    i was pissed off and said i didn't know what i wanted to do, said i would call him back later and decide what to do.

    i actually called back about 20 minutes later and said "you know what, just go ahead and send me my frame back, I'm not paying the crash replacement". and i could hear what sounded like subtle panic in his voice.

    trying to make a really long story a little bit shorter - we went back and forth, he didn't want to send me the frame back, he kept making up different reasons - "i have to ask the owners of the company if they feel comfortable sending you back a damaged frame because evil could be held liable if you got hurt, blah blah blah. basically trying to persuade me into paying the crash replacement fee instead. i had to get really stern and at one point threatened legal action because they were acting like they weren't going to give me back my property. Damaged frame or not, that frame was legally mine and their "concern for my safety" didn't mean shit and they just needed to send me my damn frame back.

    (what i truly think happened - is that they just assumed i was going to agree to pay the crash replacement fee, and damaged the frame more doing whatever space age technology baseball bat testing they did to make their determination, and physically didn't have the ability to send me my frame back even if they wanted to because it was damaged)

    finally, i get an email from mike (screen shot of email is included in pics) - "since it is christmas time, we have decided to give you a warranty replacement front triangle."

    ***so, only because its christmas time? not because you stand behind your product? but rather a national holiday that i may or may not celebrate since you know nothing about me***

    whatever - i was happy to just finally get a replacement under warranty..


    FAST FORWARD 5 MONTHS TO MAY 5th 2018

    my wreckoning with its brand new replacement front triangle had been professionally painted white, and the entire rear triangle and down tube has custom kydex frame protection, and helicopter tape. - literally a hard armor cover over those areas of carbon.

    yet another enduro event - 1 day event, 6 stages. we decide to do a full practice lap of all 6 stages before putting on our timing chips and actually racing the stages that day.

    one of the stages on a really slow tech section, i got awkward, and tipped over while stuck in my clip and pretty lightly fell on some rocks.

    right before we started racing, i look down i notice a big crack on my top tube this time - there was some type of impact mark and a small puncture in the helicopter tape. my front triangle was broken again. due to some type of impact. I talked to evil the following Monday, spoke with Dylan, who seemed cool. i accepted full responsibility, was very honest and forthcoming about the damage, and didn't expect evil to cover it. We talked about the option of crash replacement and my carbon repair options I mentioned I had locally.

    i took the entire bike to a local carbon repair professional here in Austin .

    He fixed the front triangle, great, and decided to clean the bike up. after removing the kydex guard on the non-drive-side chain stay, he found another crack on the underside of the chain stay at the very front of the triangle immediately after the bottom bracket.

    ***lets talk about this super quick - that underside area of the chain stay is almost impossible to hit on anything when the wheel is attached to the bike. Even if you 50/50 cased a giant jump, you would hit your bash guard, chainring, and cranks, and mainly the rear wheel long before anything came in contact with the bottom of the rear triangle. It would have to be some trick shot crash to perfectly hit the bottom of the chain stay, not cause any damage to the rear wheel or spokes, crack the carbon, and not leave any signs of impact. all at the same time. and dont forget that the entire chain stay / cracked area was completely covered with a hard plastic kydex frame guard and helicopter tape!***

    I took pictures, sent an email to Dylan, and called him the next day. He looked at the email pictures while we were talking, never really indicated it looked crash related, we created another RMA, and I paid to ship the rear triangle to them for review. He sent me and email with the RMA info along with a message that said ďIn order to grant replacement rear triangles, we do need the original returned to us for review beforehand.Ē Which I interpreted as a light implication that they planned on covering it under warranty after seeing the pictures, but just had to follow protocol or whatever.

    So it got delivered Thursday 5/17, I never heard anything so I called them yesterday 5/22. Mike called me back (yes, the same mike I dealt with before, Mr. Baseball Bat Carbon Frame Whacker Guy), and surprise surprise he says its a being considered a crash replacement not covered under warranty! He gave same really loose speculation to ways it couldve been possible, but offered no real logical explanation or any scientific evidence to back up his claim. Just another bullshit speculation, no benefit of the doubt, and me the customer is stuck with the bill.


    I didnt even get mad, or rude. I had more of a ďim not going through this bullshit with you guys again attitudeĒ. I said to go ahead and just send me the rear triangle back. And as a perfect little cherry on top of this entire dog-shit-cupcake experience with evil bikes - Mike says - ďok Iíll send you an invoice for you to pay for return shippingĒÖ LOL

    ***At this point ive already wasted more time and money by sending the rear triangle back to evil, paying for shipping twice, and its still broken and I need to spend more money to get it repaired.***

    We ended the call, and he sent me a $20 invoice for shipping.


    Ėand that has been my experience folks. And in the small group of local riders that I know that also ride evil bikes, some of them have also had bad experiences which they have not been publicly vocal about like me.

    i understand evil bikes is a business and just like everybody else, their goal is to make money, but to deal with a company that seems to do and say just about anything to squirm their way out of providing warranty replacements is just a super shitty feeling and shady business practices. Especially when youíre spending $3k on bike frames. Ive had STELLAR experiences with Intense Cycles Customer service, and have heard nothing but good things about companies like Santa Cruz. I hope people read this and it helps them decide if warranty coverage is important to them and if they want to do business with a company with questionable business practices. I hate to have to be the guy trying to start a shit storm, but I feel like customers need to be spoken for and companies that give their customers the shaft need to be exposed. Everything said in this post is 100% true, I just want Evil to be accountable for their words and actions. They shouldnt tell/do anything to a customer (me) that would be embarrassed for the rest of the world to see.

    If anyone else would like to share their experience of a warranty claim with evil - please share!Evil Bikes customer service warranty experiences - read and beware-33216379_10214490110279201_3726118960911876096_o-2.jpgEvil Bikes customer service warranty experiences - read and beware-33460070_10214490111679236_7355240260151803904_o-2.jpgEvil Bikes customer service warranty experiences - read and beware-33234814_10214490123199524_3781528613170446336_o-2.jpgEvil Bikes customer service warranty experiences - read and beware-img_5163-2.jpgEvil Bikes customer service warranty experiences - read and beware-screen-shot-2018-05-23-1.46.12-pm.jpg

  2. #2
    Seths Pool
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    and recent update -

    to add - I got my rear triangle back from evil yesterday, only to discover ANOTHER cracked the opposite, drive-side chain stay.

    obviously not impact related as you can see there are zero marks anywhere

    surely mike at evil who inspected the rear triangle saw it, but didnt say anything about it because it wouldve only helped my case.

    Evil Bikes customer service warranty experiences - read and beware-34073791_10214547145665050_4612620478756945920_o.jpgEvil Bikes customer service warranty experiences - read and beware-34095980_10214547145585048_2046424390375047168_o.jpg

  3. #3
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    All very interesting. I guess I can see it from both sides. Evil sounds like they searched for a way to cause similar down tube damage to work their way out of warranty. Seems sketchy because that doesn't mean anything to the actual events that may or may not have happened to cause the crack. In regards to the rear triangle, the 1st one could have been impact, but not necessarily something as you describe. Could have simply been a bottom out on a narrow rock as the suspension compressed into it. Other crack looks like fatigue maybe subsequent to 1st crack weakening the whole.

    I really think Evil and others could make their life so much better by quickly responding and giving a one time benefit of doubt to their customers. Especially when you consider how these bikes are meant to be used and how difficult it could be to determine fault.

    Did you carbon guy have any input to cause of the damages?

    Is it possible that Evil internally decided you are hard on frames and they don't want you as a customer? Not out of the realm. In my biz, we need to fire customers sometimes for various reasons.

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  4. #4
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    Man sorry for your bad experience, but I have had quite the opposite experience with Evil. I have had some paint and clear coat issues on my Following and Insurgent but not broken a frame from Evil so obviously not tried for a warranty on frame replacement. i am a big guy 210-220 and notoriously hard on stuff leaving me with some other issues with pivots and other weird problems. Those guys have been great in helping me work through my problems. Of the 5-6 folks I know that ride Evil the ones that have had to reach out to customer service have all had good experiences, but again no broken frames.
    My experience has all been positive sorry for your difficulty.

  5. #5
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    I also have had customer service interaction with Evil concerning my Wreckoning. My experience could not have gone better. I sent my bike back to them, they did their investigation and everything was handled great. The stepped up to the plate. I have had interactions with many different bike companies over the years and my dealings with Evil were some of the best I ever had.

  6. #6
    ZEN RIDER!
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    Coming from 30 yrs in retail sales and on the service side of things I am always speculative when it comes to forum warriors, especially when they have few posts. Funny over the years it seems all the bad customer experiences all seem to read the same and have the same tone. Perhaps its a certain personality type.
    I've called and emailed Evil prior to buying my frame & after and they have been professional and very helpful and quick to answer questions. My dad has also had great customer service from Evil, even when it had to do with RockShox.

    And I would think a baseball ball bat is a good way to judge an impact strike. Impact is impact, body mass is body mass yes, Force created force absorbed. just sayin
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  7. #7
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    FWIW, it looks like Seth shared this whole debacle elsewhere a few days ago, but that site has a much smaller audience of local riders. he might have suddenly become active on MTBR because he just now has a reason to share a story he finds relevant to a wider audience.

  8. #8
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    My experience with Evil was/is different. No doubt some, or a great deal of this account is BS. Also no doubt Evil could have been more accommodating, but unless you have a vendetta against the Mfg blowing them up online probably isn't the best move to elicit cooperation.

  9. #9
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    I'm sketched out by your painting of the frame. I wonder how many perceived cracks are actually paint? Evil can't be held responsible for the odd stresses imparted on a frame shuttling as well.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by madamfunk View Post
    I'm sketched out by your painting of the frame. I wonder how many perceived cracks are actually paint? Evil can't be held responsible for the odd stresses imparted on a frame shuttling as well.
    the frame was painted by a very very experienced professional who had extensive experience specifically with bike frames and other niche markets. it was flawless, you wouldve thought it came from the factory. the decals were even painted in.

    and what are you talking about "frame shuttling"? what do you mean?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mt.Biker E View Post
    I've called and emailed Evil prior to buying my frame & after and they have been professional and very helpful and quick to answer questions
    Respectfully, sales interactions (where a company stands to profit from being accommodating) can't really be compared to warranty claims (where the only thing a company can gain is favour with a customer).

  12. #12
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    Sick of hearing you crying on every website. You painted the frame.....voids warranty....end of discussion. Grow up and get over it

  13. #13
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    They've definitely lost a customer with me. I enjoyed riding their bicycle at a demo event last week, but you simply cannot sell carbon fiber products of any kind without standing behind them. This is embarrassing. Tone or otherwise, cracked carbon needs to be replaced. The markup on these bikes is excellent; to hang a customer out to dry is unacceptable.

    Paint voiding the warranty? If your bike company has a problem with you using paint, I suggest you find a real bike company.

    This is so absolutely disappointing to read. I had more fun on their bike than any other I've ridden, but this is all I need to read. One badly handled warranty claim is one too many.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by lewis View Post
    Sick of hearing you crying on every website. You painted the frame.....voids warranty....end of discussion. Grow up and get over it
    Here you go:

    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    The bit about paint voiding the warranty is not legal anyway.
    The Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act was aconsumer protection law enacted by congress to prevent shady business people from advertising warranties and then weaseling out of them for any reason they wanted.
    Aftermarket parts or modifications cannot be used to get out of a warranty unless it can be shown that the modification directly caused the failure for which the consumer is seeking a warranty cure.
    The law doesn't stop plenty of shady dealers from telling people their warranty is void for any number of reasons. The lack of general consumer understanding of this as evidenced here and just about everywhere is unfortunate.

  15. #15
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    Most companies have the same policy. It is not the paint but the primer that is the problem. Some are etching to allow the paint to adhere but this can cause delamination of the fiber layers.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by lewis View Post
    Most companies have the same policy. It is not the paint but the primer that is the problem. Some are etching to allow the paint to adhere but this can cause delamination of the fiber layers.
    There is quite a layer of paint on carbon frames, itís the easiest way to hide the cheap ass carbon fiber production methods. Taking a new frame and removing all the paint could potentially create some dramas but surely the painter would have just scuffed the finish as it was a blemish free new frame?

  17. #17
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    I bet both sides of this story are right. Initial crack was caused by some type of impact on the downtube, OP probably never realized it was there and rode with the crack for some time. It either slowly got worse with regular riding or quickly on a jump, drop or other big hit. Full disclosure, I have a Wreckoning. One of the reasons I bought it is the lack of issues reported with all of their current bikes on these forum and the internet in general. Yes, you could go back a number of years and find serious issues, but to my knowledge Evil eventually took care of everyone. Anyone writing off Evil should scan the mega-threads on all the current bikes and form your own conclusions.

    BTW OP, says right in the text messages between you and Dylan that he advised you not to paint the frame before you painted it which would void the warranty. I'm not going to pretend I'm a carbon expert, so regardless of whether painting could or could not cause any issues, why go ahead with painting?

  18. #18
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    Ive had nothing but good experiences with my dealings with evil although they were minor and not at the scale of frame replacement.

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  19. #19
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    Evil advised OP not to paint but he choose to do it regardless

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by lewis View Post
    Most companies have the same policy. It is not the paint but the primer that is the problem. Some are etching to allow the paint to adhere but this can cause delamination of the fiber layers.
    I disagree here. Any valid painter would not use a self etching primer on carbon.. Not to mention its going to lift the manufacturers paint before it damages the carbon resin (and you would clearly see this through the new paint)

  21. #21
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    Racing a bike is also much harder on it than trail riding. Its why I would never buy a pre-owned DH bike used for racing.
    And I still don't see the need for painting a relatively new bike if it hasn't been beaten to crap. Isn't the reason for painting a newish frame if its been ridden hard?
    Another reason I would never buy a custom painted frame because who knows what damage is hidden beneath it. I'm also guessing that is one of the reasons it voids the warranty.
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    Nothing but great things to say about Evil's customer service. Also after reading the initial post, I think I'll stand by Evil on this one. Sketchy painted frame, cracked downtube repaired by a local guy. Oh and I was just riding/testing at a local enduro race. Sorry but I don't buy it.


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  23. #23
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    I ride with Seth, he's a pretty lean 200lbs and a full-tilt Enduro bike should hold up under him. He had a Prime and never broke it; reasonable to assume a frame that costs $1200 more should be stronger.

    I saw him immediately after the first, non-painted crack and his kit was 100% clean, it wasn't a crash. The whole baseball bat thing is bullshit/unprofessional on Evils part.

    The paint thing...y'all are missing the point. He knew paint takes you into warranty gray area. He told them it was painted BEFORE he sent it in for the second crack. They told him to send it anyway (on his dime) only to weasal out on the paint excuse. He's pissed cause they wasted his time/money AND tried to keep his property. What else was he gonna do? Online shit talking is about the only real leverage a consumer has against a company. No lawyer is gonna take a 3k small claims court across state lines.....

    Rock strikes....guess what, rocks exist and frames should be able to withstand them. Austin has way more rocks than normal, so yea, more bikes break here. But when you're throwing down $3200...that's SC/Ibis/Pivot pricing and those companies have extremely generous and smooth warranty processes. It's literally priced into the cost of the frame. So when Evil provides even a hint of pushback, they look like crap compared to their competition.

  24. #24
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    Rock strikes are not structural in nature, neither is throwing a bike off a building or striking it with a bat. Just because it is expensive doesn't mean it should be automatically replaced. Good luck but I can say these bikes are living up to everything the PNW has to deliver and their customer service from everyone I talk to has been excellent.


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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by chowdapilot View Post
    Rock strikes are not structural in nature, neither is throwing a bike off a building or striking it with a bat. Just because it is expensive doesn't mean it should be automatically replaced. Good luck but I can say these bikes are living up to everything the PNW has to deliver and their customer service from everyone I talk to has been excellent.


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    Not trying to start an argument, but Texas is nothing like anywhere else when it comes to mountain biking. Tons of sharp rocky tech. I know these bikes are born and bred in the PNW but you'll need to come ride central Texas and judge for yourself. When you fall here it's like falling on broken china it shreds your body. I know from personal experience. Pic below is my encounter with getting my front wheel into the loose on the side of the trail and just falling. Imagine what happens to bikes here over time. Evil Bikes customer service warranty experiences - read and beware-img_1226.jpg
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  26. #26
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    Just odd that OP is the only one have issues with evil. I am sure there are a few but maybe it is him and his attitude that is the real problem. But i am just an "old out of shape dude"......him judging people doesnt help his cause, just makes him more of an ass. If i remember correctly he is called "arrogant" and "swine" on other sites

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    I have broken a couple of rear triangles on my Insurgent- my fault and Evilís service with replacements has been very good - Mike answered my emails and got replacements under way quickly. The thing is when you hit things with full carbon frames it sometimes doesnít take much to get cracks or delamination. If you are riding in a rocky tech situation + racing you are going to break stuff - looking at that rear triangle crack thatís got to be a decent impact - loose rock could do that easy, one of mine was under protective tape so looked pristine apart from the crack. Their crash replacement policy is decent value, if you are pushing it be prepared to get out the wallet every now and then.....

  28. #28
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    My girlfriend broke her rear triangle. Was 100% her fault. Endo. Bike flipped and can down on the side of the seat stay. She rode out but it needed to be replaced. We had a new one in hand Thursday (Colorado). Crash replacement but it was pretty smooth.

  29. #29
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    Same story for me. Had my new rear triangle the day after I contacted Evil - in Switzerland. The bearings were even already pressed in, making replacement pretty straight forward.

    I do have a lot of creaking now though. It happens during medium or greater efforts. Doesnít matter if I am seated or standing. The rear end moves freely and silently when I disconnect the shock. The Pressfit BB (itís a Following V1) was nearly silent before the crash. I ordered a replacement B.B., but was wondering if I should check something else before installing the new one as I would hate to remove it if itís not the problem.

    Any ideas?


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  30. #30
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    The thing is, just because the OP didn't crash the day it cracked, doesn't mean he hadn't cracked and weakened the frame 20 times in the 3 months before that.

    We've all had a spoke snap for exmaple, doesn't mean it was that particular landing that broke it... just that landing finished the process.

  31. #31
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    The more this thread rages on, the more I'm glad that ALL of my mountain bikes are metal.

  32. #32
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    Trek voided my warranty on a session I had painted. The shop actually wanted to void the warranty on all the components too. Personally I feel like its an easy out for responsibility with MFGs, same as transfer of ownership. Ive even seen some verbage outline that racing isnt covered. Anyone remember Minaars crash last year in practice? His V10 snapped in half with a side impact. As strong as these frames are, they are not designed for abnormal impacts.

    EDIT: not
    Last edited by the_owl; 06-04-2018 at 08:42 AM.

  33. #33
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    It always amazes me when someone posts on MTBR with a bad warranty/customer service experience and then all the manufacturer fanboys come in and trash the person making the complaint. Frankly, I'm glad when people post about their experiences, both good and bad, so that I can have information about how these companies do business. How else are we supposed to know? There's no reason not to take the OP at his word unless you are predisposed to favor the company.

    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    The more this thread rages on, the more I'm glad that ALL of my mountain bikes are metal.
    This is actually my main takeaway. I've just read too much in the last year or so about carbon cracking due to impacts and crashes. For me, it's not worth the risk.

  34. #34
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    Evil Bikes customer service warranty experiences - read and beware

    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    It always amazes me when someone posts on MTBR with a bad warranty/customer service experience and then all the manufacturer fanboys come in and trash the person making the complaint. Frankly, I'm glad when people post about their experiences, both good and bad, so that I can have information about how these companies do business. How else are we supposed to know? There's no reason not to take the OP at his word unless you are predisposed to favor the company.



    This is actually my main takeaway. I've just read too much in the last year or so about carbon cracking due to impacts and crashes. For me, it's not worth the risk.
    Except that aluminum frames break too and just because someone posts something on the internet doesnít make it true.

    I have no dog in this fight I own neither an Evil or carbon frame.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by geraldooka View Post
    Except that aluminum frames break too
    Sure they do, just less often.

    Quote Originally Posted by geraldooka
    and just because someone posts something on the internet doesnít make it true.
    Okay, so should we just assume that any post on here is untrue just because it happens to be on the internet?

  36. #36
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    I've also had nothing but good experiences with Evil's customer service. I had a front triangle with a manufacturing defect and they got me a new one promptly for no charge. Their latest crop of bikes are notoriously overbuilt and durable. You just have to pick one up to realize how much carbon is in one of their frames in comparison to a yeti or any other "light" carbon bike.

    I'm not here to chastise OP. Sounds like a rough experience, but I don't agree with blasting Evil as a company for "poor customer service". There seem to be just as many (if not substantially more) positive experiences with Mike and their customer service reps.

    Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by lewis View Post
    Just odd that OP is the only one have issues with evil. I am sure there are a few but maybe it is him and his attitude that is the real problem. But i am just an "old out of shape dude"......him judging people doesnt help his cause, just makes him more of an ass. If i remember correctly he is called "arrogant" and "swine" on other sites
    LOL well good to see you again! firstly your comment on my facebook post about this issue said "nobody cares about you at this point". you didnt even address anything from the actual issue, you just posted with shallow thought shit talking. so when you start to talk shit online and provide nothing valuable to the topic of conversation, expect a appropriate response. LOL.

    and the person who called me "arrogant" and "a swine" was the same guy and called me both of things in the same sentence. lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaullyD View Post
    I've also had nothing but good experiences with Evil's customer service. I had a front triangle with a manufacturing defect and they got me a new one promptly for no charge. Their latest crop of bikes are notoriously overbuilt and durable. You just have to pick one up to realize how much carbon is in one of their frames in comparison to a yeti or any other "light" carbon bike.

    I'm not here to chastise OP. Sounds like a rough experience, but I don't agree with blasting Evil as a company for "poor customer service". There seem to be just as many (if not substantially more) positive experiences with Mike and their customer service reps.

    Cheers

    can you please elaborate on the "manufacturing defect" that evil replaced the frame over? im honestly curious to know what it was

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haim View Post
    I have broken a couple of rear triangles on my Insurgent- my fault and Evilís service with replacements has been very good - Mike answered my emails and got replacements under way quickly. The thing is when you hit things with full carbon frames it sometimes doesnít take much to get cracks or delamination. If you are riding in a rocky tech situation + racing you are going to break stuff - looking at that rear triangle crack thatís got to be a decent impact - loose rock could do that easy, one of mine was under protective tape so looked pristine apart from the crack. Their crash replacement policy is decent value, if you are pushing it be prepared to get out the wallet every now and then.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwind View Post
    My girlfriend broke her rear triangle. Was 100% her fault. Endo. Bike flipped and can down on the side of the seat stay. She rode out but it needed to be replaced. We had a new one in hand Thursday (Colorado). Crash replacement but it was pretty smooth.
    Quote Originally Posted by CHsurfer View Post
    Same story for me. Had my new rear triangle the day after I contacted Evil - in Switzerland. The bearings were even already pressed in, making replacement pretty straight forward.

    I do have a lot of creaking now though. It happens during medium or greater efforts. Doesnít matter if I am seated or standing. The rear end moves freely and silently when I disconnect the shock. The Pressfit BB (itís a Following V1) was nearly silent before the crash. I ordered a replacement B.B., but was wondering if I should check something else before installing the new one as I would hate to remove it if itís not the problem.

    Any ideas?


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    thank for your replies but you guys are missing the point of the thread. evil is more than happy to take your money and sell you a crash replacement.

    this thread is about WARRANTY CLAIMS and evil accepting responsibility and not blaming the customer for frame failures when the issue reported is NOT crash related.

    I want to hear from more people about frame cracks that evil gladly took ownership of and replaced for FREE. havent heard one of those yet from anyone

    ive presented my case, the pictures and stories of each experience are there.

    each crack was in my opinion pretty obviously not impact related, but controversial in evil's opinion but they still chose to default to blaming me as the customer even though that have/had NO real evidence to back up their claims. whereas my proof is in the pudding that there hasnt been any visual or physical indication that an impact or crash had caused the failures.

    I dont expect every bike company to just blindly hand out free replacements every time a customer makes a claim, but if you're gonna say a crack is crash/impact related, be prepared to back up your conclusion!

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    and let me remind everyone that the ENTIRE rear triangle chain stays and seat stays have/had a layer of helicopter tape, underneath custom kydex plastic frame guards. physically impossible for any rocks or whatever to directly impact the carbon.

    and why would I openly admit to impact damage to the front triangle and then try to lie about the rear triangle?

    the whole things sounds ridiculous because it IS ridiculous. doesnt make sense on multiple fronts. far fetched attempt to deny responsibility. it should be easy to see that

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    Hmm, I only know personally 2 people on Wreckoning and both had their rear triangles cracked in the same spot. One was within the first 3weeks of ownership.
    Both were decided to be a crash replacement by Evil. Not free.
    I have seen those cracks and it looked more like the stays had bent, there was some paint cracking around the spot.
    Of course I might be totally wrong.

    I personally will not experiment with a small bike company, doesn't matter how great their bikes ride if I can get a better warranty service somewhere else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    Sure they do, just less often.



    Okay, so should we just assume that any post on here is untrue just because it happens to be on the internet?
    Not necessarily. I was strictly commenting on your statements which read to me that you think this companies service sucks based on this individuals post and further that how you decide if a company sucks or not is based on posts like this. Perhaps I should have wrote instead to confirm if thatís what you meant?

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    Seth, you douche bag. Evil told you they will not warranty a painted frame but you chose to paint it anyway. Why should you be held accountable for your actions? Someone was to protect the idiots.....get a lawyer like you threatened and move on. Sick of hearing you crying and blaming everyone but yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post
    the frame was painted by a very very experienced professional who had extensive experience specifically with bike frames and other niche markets. it was flawless, you wouldve thought it came from the factory. the decals were even painted in.

    and what are you talking about "frame shuttling"? what do you mean?
    Carbon bikes are strong in the axis that they were meant to have forces applied on. Evil doesn't know what happens to your bike on a shuttle or your car rack. There are all kinds of eccentric forces that customers may have applied, like taking a light tumble and having their knee hit the top tube.

    Also, I think its reasonable that Evil void a customer's warranty for violating its explicitly written warranty statutes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post
    and let me remind everyone that the ENTIRE rear triangle chain stays and seat stays have/had a layer of helicopter tape, underneath custom kydex plastic frame guards. physically impossible for any rocks or whatever to directly impact the carbon.

    and why would I openly admit to impact damage to the front triangle and then try to lie about the rear triangle?

    the whole things sounds ridiculous because it IS ridiculous. doesnt make sense on multiple fronts. far fetched attempt to deny responsibility. it should be easy to see that
    Oh, you are correct the whole thing sounds ridiculous. You were told your warranty would be void if you painted the frame and yet you did it anyways, ridiculous. You refuse to acknowledge all the different ways painting can compromise a composite frame, ridiculous. You trying to impugn a company's reputation because of your own actions, ridiculous. Your continued whining and lack of accepting responsibility for your actions, ridiculous. Yep, you hit the nail on the head calling this situation ridiculous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lewis View Post
    Seth, you douche bag. Evil told you they will not warranty a painted frame but you chose to paint it anyway. Why should you be held accountable for your actions? Someone was to protect the idiots.....get a lawyer like you threatened and move on. Sick of hearing you crying and blaming everyone but yourself.
    youre coming off like an ass, or a drunk poster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Oh, you are correct the whole thing sounds ridiculous. You were told your warranty would be void if you painted the frame and yet you did it anyways, ridiculous. You refuse to acknowledge all the different ways painting can compromise a composite frame, ridiculous. You trying to impugn a company's reputation because of your own actions, ridiculous. Your continued whining and lack of accepting responsibility for your actions, ridiculous. Yep, you hit the nail on the head calling this situation ridiculous.

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    Inform me of how painting a frame damages the carbon resin. Are you assuming they are stripping off the factory paint? Im betting that doesnt happen. Its a scuff and shoot job. If its going to harm the resin, its going to lift the factory paint first and ruin the job.

    IMO thats just a way for companies to weasel out of the warranty. I have avoided painting my frame for this very reason and Im the second hand owner. But figure it is one less reason for the company to not want to work with me if it breaks (crash replacement cost obviously)

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    Quote Originally Posted by R_Pierce View Post
    Inform me of how painting a frame damages the carbon resin. Are you assuming they are stripping off the factory paint? Im betting that doesnt happen. Its a scuff and shoot job. If its going to harm the resin, its going to lift the factory paint first and ruin the job.
    Any number of ways, solvent type, was heat used, did they strip it, etc. etc. Who cares if the shop/person considered/performed everything perfectly, unless the manufacturer performed the painting they have no way of verifying any of those questions with 100% accuracy. Hence they are not going to open themselves up to liability outside of their control.

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    Quote Originally Posted by madamfunk View Post
    Carbon bikes are strong in the axis that they were meant to have forces applied on. Evil doesn't know what happens to your bike on a shuttle or your car rack. There are all kinds of eccentric forces that customers may have applied, like taking a light tumble and having their knee hit the top tube.

    Also, I think its reasonable that Evil void a customer's warranty for violating its explicitly written warranty statutes.
    If Evil isn't designing bikes with the forces of shuttling and light tumbles with knees hitting top tubes in mind -- that is good for a customer to know. These are standard occurrences in the world of mtbing that their frames are supposedly designed for.

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    To those of you who got a rear triangle on crash replacement due to a crash etc; how much were you charged?

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    Some of you people are ridiculous. Take a few minutes to browse the threads on this forum and you will find almost zero complaints about bikes breaking and/or getting hosed by Evil. One guy abuses the crap out of his frame and squeals like a stuck pig when he doesn't get his way and suddenly Evil is not designing bikes for "light tumbles"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by R_Pierce View Post
    IMO thats just a way for companies to weasel out of the warranty.
    A few people have said this, but I don't believe that's correct at all.

    I think of weaseling as: if you put a sticker on the bike (or protective tape) and Evil said: that falls under the "void if painted"...or if touch up paint was used to fix a few paint chips and they said that falls under "void if painted"...that's weaseling.

    You can agree with the policy/warranty or not. If you don't agree, don't buy from the company...but when it's explicitly stated, it's not weaseling.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartyiak View Post
    A few people have said this, but I don't believe that's correct at all.

    I think of weaseling as: if you put a sticker on the bike (or protective tape) and Evil said: that falls under the "void if painted"...or if touch up paint was used to fix a few paint chips and they said that falls under "void if painted"...that's weaseling.

    You can agree with the policy/warranty or not. If you don't agree, don't buy from the company...but when it's explicitly stated, it's not weaseling.
    I'll give you the flip side of the coin having worked as a warranty writer for another industry. Painting & stickers hide damage, even touch up paint. If it is a manufactures defect the manufacturer can not correctly assess how the damage happened.
    And unfortunately a few bad apples that do this on purpose spoil the apple pie.
    And there is a decent % of people that just expect everything to be covered under warranty as if it was an insurance policy. Sometimes its ignorance other times its American entitlement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mt.Biker E View Post
    I'll give you the flip side of the coin having worked as a warranty writer for another industry. Painting & stickers hide damage, even touch up paint. If it is a manufactures defect the manufacturer can not correctly assess how the damage happened.
    And unfortunately a few bad apples that do this on purpose spoil the apple pie.
    And there is a decent % of people that just expect everything to be covered under warranty as if it was an insurance policy. Sometimes its ignorance other times its American entitlement.
    I wasn't saying that customers don't commit fraud...I'm merely saying that I don't think it's fair to say a mfg is weaseling out of anything when they have expressly stated that doing "X" will invalidate warranty claims.

    Note: I'm also not commenting on Seth's situation, just the posters calling Evil's policy "weaseling."

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Oh, you are correct the whole thing sounds ridiculous. You were told your warranty would be void if you painted the frame and yet you did it anyways, ridiculous. You refuse to acknowledge all the different ways painting can compromise a composite frame, ridiculous. You trying to impugn a company's reputation because of your own actions, ridiculous. Your continued whining and lack of accepting responsibility for your actions, ridiculous. Yep, you hit the nail on the head calling this situation ridiculous.

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    to this guy and anyone else - look at this email between me and Dylan at evil bikes. firstly I was never forewarned by anyone beforehand that painting the frame would void the warranty.

    here is a screenshot of our email conversation. he actually seemed quite stoked about it.

    so why dont yall read this and then still tell me I was warned, because I wasnt.

    Evil Bikes customer service warranty experiences - read and beware-screen-shot-2018-06-05-8.37.04-am.jpgEvil Bikes customer service warranty experiences - read and beware-screen-shot-2018-06-05-8.37.19-am.jpgEvil Bikes customer service warranty experiences - read and beware-screen-shot-2018-06-05-8.37.33-am.jpg

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by lewis View Post
    Evil advised OP not to paint but he choose to do it regardless
    when? that never happened

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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    Some of you people are ridiculous. Take a few minutes to browse the threads on this forum and you will find almost zero complaints about bikes breaking and/or getting hosed by Evil. One guy abuses the crap out of his frame and squeals like a stuck pig when he doesn't get his way and suddenly Evil is not designing bikes for "light tumbles"?
    and how did I abuse my frame?

  58. #58
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    The warranty states that it does not "apply to custom finishes". It does not state that painting the frame voids the warranty. What I get from that is they will not pay additional to replace the finish in a warranty situation. They may be using the "alteration" aspect of the warranty as a means to deny warranty. But that was never stated. This whole paint thing is nonsense. The manufacturers of these bikes do not use any kind of "special" paint, they use aftermarket refinishing products that are used for automotive applications. Seth had a brand new frame painted, which would be a scuff and shoot no need to strip anything no need for any special preparation. The paint job on my Following was less than stellar with indications of being reshot as I could see traces of where there were runs under the finish. I love my Following but was less than impressed with the finish quality when I got it not only referring to the paint but the smoothing and sanding as well. I have experience in this field having painted literally thousand of cars. Also from what I understand these frames are manufactured in the same facility that used to build Santa Cruz frames. The new MB has a much better overall finish than the V1's had. Like Seth pointed out why have him send the frame back knowing it was painted only to deny the claim if painting voided the warranty. The situation sucks and I feel they should have tried to meet Seth somewhere in the middle. Without being able to verify if it was due to crash or defect or painting both parties should have been able to come up with an acceptable solution. I know Seth and don't believe he's trying to get over or take advantage of Evil. He's known in the Central ATX Mtb community as a hard rider but also a stand up guy that gives back to the community on a regular basis. Hopefully someone at Evil that has the power to make an executive decision will reach out and try to help come to a better resolution.
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  59. #59
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    I think its funny how I post this exact same story word for word and compare the responses in the evil owner's clubs (biased) VS people's responses in non-evil owner's clubs (unbiased)..

    very entertaining. bias isnt good at hiding itself.... LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post
    I think its funny how I post this exact same story word for word and compare the responses in the evil owner's clubs (biased) VS people's responses in non-evil owner's clubs (biased)..

    very entertaining. bias isnt good at hiding itself.... LOL
    Very true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post
    to this guy and anyone else - look at this email between me and Dylan at evil bikes. firstly I was never forewarned by anyone beforehand that painting the frame would void the warranty.

    here is a screenshot of our email conversation. he actually seemed quite stoked about it.

    so why dont yall read this and then still tell me I was warned, because I wasnt.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post
    when? that never happened
    Uh huh, that would be why you did not dispute his assertion in your previous screenshots, got it, makes sense.

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    Owners forum also referred to you as "swine"

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Uh huh, that would be why you did not dispute his assertion in your previous screenshots, got it, makes sense.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    and so screenshots of the ACTUAL conversation arent more valuable to your opinion than maybe the fact that I missed that accusation at some point during this entire online shit storm post? haha ooooookkkkkk. just like bias, unintelligence isnt very good at hiding itself either. lmao



    Quote Originally Posted by lewis View Post
    Owners forum also referred to you as "swine"
    lol you already said that.

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    Sometimes in small companies the actions of a single individual can have a bigger them it seems impact on how things go. Success or failure. And in the case of warranty customer service that isn't a high pay position. It may not attract a highly technical person with strong engineering foundations. That's why companies with lots of experience error on the customers side of things. Evil should make things easier for everyone and follow the pattern of Santa Cruz or Trek.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post
    and so screenshots of the ACTUAL conversation arent more valuable to your opinion than maybe the fact that I missed that accusation at some point during this entire online shit storm post? haha ooooookkkkkk. just like bias, unintelligence isnt very good at hiding itself either. lmao





    lol you already said that.
    Considering you directly responded to the assertion I would hope had not missed it. If you did miss it then that opens up quite a few explanations as to why you are having difficulties understanding why you were denied, ie it would be an indictment of your attention to detail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geraldooka View Post
    Not necessarily. I was strictly commenting on your statements which read to me that you think this companies service sucks based on this individuals post and further that how you decide if a company sucks or not is based on posts like this. Perhaps I should have wrote instead to confirm if thatís what you meant?
    No, I don't judge an entire company by a single user's experience, especially when a number of other users come on and provide positive feedback. But if you see a number of posts about a company providing a poor experience, I definitely begin to form an opinion. That's why these posts are valuable, because they provide data that we otherwise wouldn't have.

    So in this case, Seth posted about his experience, and now Jazzanova has commented that he knows several people who have had their rear triangles crack in the same place, and I start to think maybe there's an issue here. I mean I don't know that, but I've also got like dozens of bike companies to choose from, and hearing from these people is, to me, an important data point to consider when purchasing a new bike.

    All I'm saying is, it doesn't make sense to shit on people who talk about receiving poor customer service. This is how we learn about how companies treat customers before we pull the trigger on a 3, 4, or 5k purchase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Uh huh, that would be why you did not dispute his assertion in your previous screenshots, got it, makes sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lewis View Post
    Owners forum also referred to you as "swine"
    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Considering you directly responded to the assertion I would hope had not missed it. If you did miss it then that opens up quite a few explanations as to why you are having difficulties understanding why you were denied, ie it would be an indictment of your attention to detail.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

    and regardless of all of this, its doesnt take an expert to conclude that multiple frame failures REALLY weren't caused by painting the frame. its an easy scapegoat, but cmon guys... and the frame had a failure on the front triangle before I ever even painted it! why does everyone have to harp on the easy excuse out of this whole debacle?

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    I just noticed that between the 2 threads about this story on MTBR alone, it has almost 10k views already, is is pretty steadily growing... evil saved themselves how much.... $300, maybe $400 on a rear triangle by choosing to give me the shaft?

    I wonder how many people saved themselves the trouble and chose to cross evil bikes off their list after reading my story.
    Last edited by sethatx111; 06-06-2018 at 04:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post
    and regardless of all of this, its doesnt take an expert to conclude that multiple frame failures REALLY weren't caused by painting the frame. its an easy scapegoat, but cmon guys... and the frame had a failure on the front triangle before I ever even painted it! why does everyone have to harp on the easy excuse out of this whole debacle?
    Because you did something that was explicitly called out as voiding the warranty. By doing so you willingly removed the manufacturer's ability to make a factual determination of cause.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post
    I just noticed that between the 2 threads about this story on MTBR alone, it has almost 10k views already, is is pretty steadily growing... evil saved themselves how much.... $300, maybe $400 on a rear triangle by choosing to give me the shaft?

    I wonder how many people saved themselves the trouble and chose to cross evil bikes off their list after reading my story.

    good job evil, if you dont feel any regret by now, you should!
    And I would delete this as you just opened yourself up to legal action. You're really not doing well with the whole logical reasoning aspect of this.

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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    And I would delete this as you just opened yourself up to legal action. You're really not doing well with the whole logical reasoning aspect of this.

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    LOL this is not slander. this is just me telling a story of my experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    And I would delete this as you just opened yourself up to legal action. You're really not doing well with the whole logical reasoning aspect of this.
    Second time someone has posted on these forums that a person complaining about poor customer service has opened themselves up to legal action.

    That is a totally false claim. As a customer it is your right to bitch to high hell about a poor experience you've had. The company has no legal recourse UNLESS they can prove you are lying.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post
    LOL this is not slander. this is just me telling a story of my experience.
    With the now admitted entire purpose being to cause damage...

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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    Second time someone has posted on these forums that a person complaining about poor customer service has opened themselves up to legal action.

    That is a totally false claim. As a customer it is your right to bitch to high hell about a poor experience you've had. The company has no legal recourse UNLESS they can prove you are lying.
    Incorrect, when he admitted his purpose was to cause damage he opened himself up. Without that admission you are correct.

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  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    So in this case, Seth posted about his experience, and now Jazzanova has commented that he knows several people who have had their rear triangles crack in the same place, and I start to think maybe there's an issue here....
    All I'm saying is, it doesn't make sense to shit on people who talk about receiving poor customer service. This is how we learn about how companies treat customers before we pull the trigger on a 3, 4, or 5k purchase.
    I agree with KP and, to me, this is the most valuable takeaway. It appears as this is a known problem. I still don't think it's "weaseling" to deny a claim like this BUT, it could have also saved a headache and created a completely different narrative by sending Seth a $250 rear triangle (I'm guessing...I have no idea what a rear triangle costs Evil).

    Here's an example of what I mean: A long time ago, I bought a Cervelo Soloist. Cervelo has a "lifetime warranty" against mfg defects. A weld cracked after about 10,000 miles. The frame gets sent back and Cervelo, rather than talking about weld stress and not mfg related, sends a shiny new carbon S3 frameset...no questions asked. Now when I look at road bikes, I immediately go to Cervelo. And I'm currently looking at a TB for a new trail bike...and part of it is b/c of the warranty and the POM ownership.

    I've heard of other mfgs with a "lifetime" warranty that actually do "weasel" out of easily remedied issues.

    I'm glad this post exists b/c, as KP wrote, it gives data points (good and bad) about what they can expect should they have an issue with an Evil purchase.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Incorrect, when he admitted his purpose was to cause damage he opened himself up. Without that admission you are correct.

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    What damages? Potential loss of future customers? Based on an internet thread that is pretty split on Evil vs OP.

    Good luck with that one.

  79. #79
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    Tucker are you affiliated with Evil? Just reads that way IMO.

    OP - If you paint the frame it voids the warranty, you have a case on the first but not on the second. IF it is part of their warranty lingo and you go against it, it is on you, they clearly defined what would void it, chance you take when you cross the line. Either way, you have convinced me not purchase one and it was on my short list.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    With the now admitted entire purpose being to cause damage...

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Incorrect, when he admitted his purpose was to cause damage he opened himself up. Without that admission you are correct.

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    I dunno...seems more like his purpose is to laugh in their face...or thumb his nose. Poor form:sure. But: legally actionable???

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Incorrect, when he admitted his purpose was to cause damage he opened himself up. Without that admission you are correct.

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    I clearly stated in the very beginning that my intent was to allow other people to read my story and potentially save themselves from the same trouble I experienced. the end.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartyiak View Post
    I dunno...seems more like his purpose is to laugh in their face...or thumb his nose. Poor form:sure. But: legally actionable???
    Will they, probably not. Could they, absolutely. Once he admitted to intentional malice the threshold for what they had to prove went down significantly.

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  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post
    I will admit that I will probably never paint an in-warranty bike frame again, but yes, I agree with you
    LargeMan out of thousands of bikes it one guy who has a craptastic attitude as noted by other posters.
    I've had nothing but excellent customer service from Evil, along with a bunch of other owners. I would agree with you and the op but there are too many factors that don't add up on his end. 30 years in retail and there is always a handful of people like the op. It doesn't accurately reflect a company in my opinion. If it was a true reflection of Evil there would be countless negative posts yet there isn't. Instead you get a bunch of owners stating excellent customer service.
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  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    With the now admitted entire purpose being to cause damage...

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Will they, probably not. Could they, absolutely. Once he admitted to intentional malice the threshold for what they had to prove went down significantly.

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    Maybe I should have been more clear. I don't see anywhere in that post that shows he "intentionally" tried to or the "entire purpose" was to harm Evil.

    He relayed his experience with Evil. There's people that agree with him (and perhaps Evil lost sales from those people...perhaps not) and there's those who, clearly, think he's a jerk (and some of them will buy Evil...some won't).

    While it could be read as written to harm Evil, it could just as easily be read as providing valuable consumer info and pleased at the response...and is laughing at Evil because of it.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartyiak View Post
    Maybe I should have been more clear. I don't see anywhere in that post that shows he "intentionally" tried to or the "entire purpose" was to harm Evil.

    He relayed his experience with Evil. There's people that agree with him (and perhaps Evil lost sales from those people...perhaps not) and there's those who, clearly, think he's a jerk (and some of them will buy Evil...some won't).

    While it could be read as written to harm Evil, it could just as easily be read as providing valuable consumer info and pleased at the response...and is laughing at Evil because of it.
    When you say "if you don't feel regret by now you should" it becomes easy to argue for intentional malice.

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  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    When you say "if you don't feel regret by now you should" it becomes easy to argue for intentional malice.

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    telling someone/some company they should regret screwing you over because of all the people that your bad business practices have been exposed to isnt malicious intent, its just rubbing it in their face.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post
    telling someone/some company they should regret screwing you over because of all the people that your bad business practices have been exposed to isnt malicious intent, its just rubbing it in their face.
    You're digging yourself a bigger hole. By "rubbing it in their face" that adds more evidence to suggest the motive was to drive away customers.

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  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Because you did something that was explicitly called out as voiding the warranty. By doing so you willingly removed the manufacturer's ability to make a factual determination of cause.

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    The warranty's protection doesn't depend on the manufacturer's ability to determine the cause. If they want to determine the cause, that's on them, but they should replace the frame unless they can prove that the failure is outside of their warranty terms. If it's indeterminate, then they should just give him a frame. I can't think of any business where the manufacturer goes through so much BS to determine the cause of failures before making warranty replacements. It's as if the companies view our enjoyment of our bicycles as worthless while they take a month or more to "determine the cause." If the soles come off my shoes, the company doesn't employ some science firm to figure out why the stitching came apart, they just send me a new pair of shoes. The reason we all pay good money for plastic bikes is this warranty coverage. Otherwise we'd have to buy insurance for a $3000+ frame, which most people can't just drop the cash and replace.

    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post
    I just noticed that between the 2 threads about this story on MTBR alone, it has almost 10k views already, is is pretty steadily growing... evil saved themselves how much.... $300, maybe $400 on a rear triangle by choosing to give me the shaft?

    I wonder how many people saved themselves the trouble and chose to cross evil bikes off their list after reading my story.

    good job evil, if you dont feel any regret by now, you should!
    They're definitely not selling me any bikes. I rode their bike last weekend at a demo event. I will NOT be buying one after reading this thread. I'm skeptical of plastic mountain bikes anyway, but I really did enjoy riding theirs. This thread reinforces my concerns that 1) mountain bikes, especially mountain bikes ridden by recreational riders, should be metal and 2) Evil lacks the customer relations experience for me to put myself at their mercy.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    The warranty's protection doesn't depend on the manufacturer's ability to determine the cause. If they want to determine the cause, that's on them, but they should replace the frame unless they can prove that the failure is outside of their warranty terms.

    He willingly removed their ability to determine cause. What you are saying is that if the user successfully obfuscates the damage enough that the manufacturer should be on the hook. That is just not logical.


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  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Incorrect, when he admitted his purpose was to cause damage he opened himself up. Without that admission you are correct.
    You are 100% wrong. Truth is a defense.

    Go google the cases about people registering web sites like "yourcompanysucks.com" and you'll find courts have repeatedly upheld a customer's right to present information about their customer experience, so long as the information presented is true. One of the elements of libel is that it has to be false or misleading information to be actionable. Intent is irrelevant if the information is true.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    You are 100% wrong. Truth is a defense.

    Go google the cases about people registering web sites like "yourcompanysucks.com" and you'll find courts have repeatedly upheld a customer's right to present information about their customer experience, so long as the information presented is true. One of the elements of libel is that it has to be false or misleading information to be actionable. Intent is irrelevant if the information is true.
    "You are 100% wrong" . Truth is not always a defense, Noonan vs Staples. Truth just usually is a defense.

    Even ignoring that there have been enough inconsistencies in the statements for one to reasonably assume that there is a slight redaction or loose interpretation of events in the facts presented.

    You are also erroneously assuming that the only legal recourse is libel, again, "100% wrong".

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  92. #92
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    Without getting too deeply into the legal technicalities on a biking forum, I think you're way over-analyzing this.

    Generally speaking, absent some very creative lawyering, some dude complaining about a bad customer experience on an internet forum is not opening himself up to legal action. I mean that's kind of ridiculous, honestly.

    P.S. Noonan vs. Staples is a big time outlier, widely criticized, and never actually addressed "truth as a defense" because of a procedural error.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    "You are 100% wrong" . Truth is not always a defense, Noonan vs Staples. Truth just usually is a defense.

    Even ignoring that there have been enough inconsistencies in the statements for one to reasonably assume that there is a slight redaction or loose interpretation of events in the facts presented.

    You are also erroneously assuming that the only legal recourse is libel, again, "100% wrong".

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    im just imaging you grimacing over your laptop in your evil bike PJs in your matching evil bikes bedsheets in your race car bed, with magazine pages of evil bikes stapled all over your walls, googling about past court cases to fuel your arguments. hahahahahahahah.

    get off evil's nuts dude. like I said earlier, I shouldnt take an expert to read this story (understanding that im telling the absolute truth, which I am) and have a pretty straight forward takeaway that I got screwed.

    why are you gung-ho about defending evil anyways.

    and everyone wants to cherry pick the issues of focus. CRACKS PEOPLE - LETS TALK ABOUT THE CRACKS - the ****ing bike has been crumbling! before and after the paint!

  94. #94
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    I'll be honest - some of those rear triangle cracks look very much like impact damage from rock strikes. Like when your front tire kicks up a rock and it hits the frame. I understand there's protective tape and such, but I'm not sure how well that stuff does protecting against a rock kicked up by your front wheel and hitting your rear triangle at a good clip.

    Whether that's a manufacturing defect or not is a whole other question, but I do remember that some of these enduro bikes used to be manufactured with alloy rear triangles and carbon front triangles because of this kind of issue. I also know lots of people with carbon rear triangles that will claim they've never had these kinds of issues.

    To me it raises questions about using carbon for mountain bikes in areas where there is a possibility of this kind of damage. I'm not sure if other manufacturers do it better than Evil, or if this is just something you have to live with when it comes to riding carbon, but for the time being I'll be riding my alloy bike. If I ever do go carbon, it's going to be with a manufacturer with an impeccable reputation for replacing broken frames even if the damage isn't exactly manufacturing defect.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    I'll be honest - some of those rear triangle cracks look very much like impact damage from rock strikes. Like when your front tire kicks up a rock and it hits the frame. I understand there's protective tape and such, but I'm not sure how well that stuff does protecting against a rock kicked up by your front wheel and hitting your rear triangle at a good clip.

    Whether that's a manufacturing defect or not is a whole other question, but I do remember that some of these enduro bikes used to be manufactured with alloy rear triangles and carbon front triangles because of this kind of issue. I also know lots of people with carbon rear triangles that will claim they've never had these kinds of issues.

    To me it raises questions about using carbon for mountain bikes in areas where there is a possibility of this kind of damage. I'm not sure if other manufacturers do it better than Evil, or if this is just something you have to live with when it comes to riding carbon, but for the time being I'll be riding my alloy bike. If I ever do go carbon, it's going to be with a manufacturer with an impeccable reputation for replacing broken frames even if the damage isn't exactly manufacturing defect.
    thanks for all of your input!

    as far as the frame protection goes, I wish you could see the frame protection in person. its not just protective tape, is a layer of helicopter tape and THEN a hard piece of kydex plastic rigid frame protector over each protected area. literally a hard shield over the carbon. I can only imaging a rock strike would have to be sooooo hard to break carbon through the kydex. it wouldnt be something that would happen and someone just not notice.


    but yes, im going back to aluminum!

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post
    im just imaging you grimacing over your laptop in your evil bike PJs in your matching evil bikes bedsheets in your race car bed, with magazine pages of evil bikes stapled all over your walls, googling about past court cases to fuel your arguments. hahahahahahahah.

    get off evil's nuts dude. like I said earlier, I shouldnt take an expert to read this story (understanding that im telling the absolute truth, which I am) and have a pretty straight forward takeaway that I got screwed.

    why are you gung-ho about defending evil anyways.

    and everyone wants to cherry pick the issues of focus. CRACKS PEOPLE - LETS TALK ABOUT THE CRACKS - the ****ing bike has been crumbling! before and after the paint!
    Who is defending Evil? What makes you think I own an Evil? Has the fact that you are just wrong, regardless of whatever manufacturer you choose to insert entered your brain? You did something that violated the terms of your warranty and want someone else to pay for your mistakes, entitlement at its finest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sethatx111 View Post
    im just imaging you grimacing over your laptop in your evil bike PJs in your matching evil bikes bedsheets in your race car bed, with magazine pages of evil bikes stapled all over your walls, googling about past court cases to fuel your arguments. hahahahahahahah.
    HAHAHAH...just the way I've always pictured him too!

    Attack of the wannabe lawyer!!! LOOK OUT!!!

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  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Who is defending Evil?
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    You gotta be kidding. There's no way you can be taken seriously after writing that. That's the equivalent of Seth saying, "I have no beef with Evil."

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    HAHAHAH...just the way I've always pictured him too!

    Attack of the wannabe lawyer!!! LOOK OUT!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by smartyiak View Post
    You gotta be kidding. There's no way you can be taken seriously after writing that. That's the equivalent of Seth saying, "I have no beef with Evil."

    lmao what a DWEEB!

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartyiak View Post
    You gotta be kidding. There's no way you can be taken seriously after writing that. That's the equivalent of Seth saying, "I have no beef with Evil."
    If you truly cannot separate telling someone that they are in the wrong versus taking a side I'm not sure what can be said to help you understand said concept.

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