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  1. #1
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    Kokopelli trail race

    Are any of you thinking of racing/riding the Kokopelli Trail Race this year?

    Also, any female finishers of the KTR yet?

    Thanks,

    B
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    I'd like to know if there have been any female finishers too. I'm thinking about doing it in the spring. Anybody know?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fairyweatherider
    I'd like to know if there have been any female finishers too. I'm thinking about doing it in the spring. Anybody know?
    I did it last year and there was one female there but I'm pretty sure she didn't finish. I think she was the first to try, but I definitely may be wrong!

    Has the race even been announced by Mike?

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    I'm interested in doing it.

    I was going to send MC a note to find out whether it was going to happen and what the logistics would be. I think someone on MTBR has an Endurance Race web site that includes info on it. I saw it a few days ago. I will look.

    *edit* here is that link I referred to: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=137596 and here is the Endurance link: http://www.ride424.com/calendar.php

    Keep scrolling down to May 2006, it's there The contact info is in the Journals link.
    Last edited by edemtbs; 10-31-2005 at 02:38 PM. Reason: link

  5. #5
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    Koko is a fantastic race. The self supported element adds another dimension to the event for sure. I believe MC has already announced it on the ride424.com calendar. It can be viewed at www.ride424.com/calendar.php

    I had asked about a women's record last year, and no one could give an answer. I gave it a go last year and made it to Rabbit Valley when my body got all wierd with low electrolytes and such. I decided to bail at the Interstate, and vowed to come back in 2006. Hell, maybe even do it twice for good measure....it's such a great trail.........have fun if you go!

    erika v.

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    I read about it in the Mountain Flyer magazine

    Quote Originally Posted by EVM
    Koko is a fantastic race.
    It does sound like a very cool race and low key, nice. Good luck next year EVM.

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    Geez you guys--it's still 7.5 months away...

    Don't you have snowboards to wax...

    ..or somethin'...?!

    I did announce it on the ride424 website. I'm working on a website for the Koko, Grand Loop, and GDR races. Probably not before 1/1/06, but hopefully by then.

    Many women have ridden the Kokopelli route, but as yet none have completed the race. There have been rumors of women completing the route in a day, but none confirmed.
    At least one woman will finish the race in '06. How do I know? Sheer numbers. If even half of the women that have contacted me about the event show up, at least one of them will finish. I'm betting that EVM will be one of them, but I'll also bet that she has company.

    An even better question is, how many (men or women) will attempt the Grand Loop, and what percentage will finish? My guess is 9 starters and 2 finishers. Is it really that hard? Actually, it's WAY harder...

    MC

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Geez you guys--it's still 7.5 months away...

    Don't you have snowboards to wax...

    ..or somethin'...?!

    I did announce it on the ride424 website. I'm working on a website for the Koko, Grand Loop, and GDR races. Probably not before 1/1/06, but hopefully by then.

    Many women have ridden the Kokopelli route, but as yet none have completed the race. There have been rumors of women completing the route in a day, but none confirmed.
    At least one woman will finish the race in '06. How do I know? Sheer numbers. If even half of the women that have contacted me about the event show up, at least one of them will finish. I'm betting that EVM will be one of them, but I'll also bet that she has company.

    An even better question is, how many (men or women) will attempt the Grand Loop, and what percentage will finish? My guess is 9 starters and 2 finishers. Is it really that hard? Actually, it's WAY harder...

    MC
    Where's the grand loop take place?

    You'll be happy to hear the Cinnamon raisin peanut butter now comes in a plastic jar so perhaps shipping won't be such a hassle. I'm averaging a jar a week...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    Where's the grand loop take place?
    The Grand Loop starts at Loma, follows the Kokopelli to the high point of the La Sals, then turns south onto the Paradox Trail. Follow that through the la Sals, descend into and across the Paradox Valley and then climb all day to top out at 10k on the Uncompahgre Plateau. Which is where you turn left onto the Tabeguache Trail, which you follow for the next 115+ miles back to GJ. Total distance is ~340 miles. Total climbing 45,000'+.

    More here:
    http://mtbike.mountainzone.com/2001/...oop_index.html
    http://www.zipp.com/athletes/adventu...ctations.shtml
    http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/PR-060203.asp

    That should give you an idea, at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    You'll be happy to hear the Cinnamon raisin peanut butter now comes in a plastic jar so perhaps shipping won't be such a hassle. I'm averaging a jar a week...
    Ba$tard! Hit me when I'm weak, why dontcha?? I ran out last week... Soon as I get my PayPal balance back in the black I'll be callin' on ya...

    MC

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    I am DEFINITELY

    psyched on doing the race.

    The self-support element makes it that more enticing.

    I got Walt to build up a frame. And I'm going to have Mike C build up the wheels (you'll get that email in a month, Mike)

    I just hope once they take out the Ti hardware out of my leg (long story), the bones will fill in by race day.

    And if not, I can at least shoot for the title of "The Guy Who Finished the Race with a Drilled-out Tibia"

  11. #11
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    By the way...

    I need to scout that area and the KTR course. I am familiar with Fruita/Loma/Mack/Rabbit Valley but beyond that I'm pretty much clueless. So I'll need to be scouting and will probably do some now through when it snows too much.

    Anyone that wants to join send a PM.

    As for the Grand Loop, well, one step at a time for me. Never letting us rest on our laurels are you MC?

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    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    I need to scout that area and the KTR course. I am familiar with Fruita/Loma/Mack/Rabbit Valley but beyond that I'm pretty much clueless. So I'll need to be scouting and will probably do some now through when it snows too much.
    From Rabbit Valley all the way to Dewey can be ridden pretty much all winter. There may be a day or two (right after a storm) where it's goopy, but I rode all of it many times last winter--including Jan and Feb. Even much of the climb up from Dewey, as well as between Slickrock and Porc Rim (and maybe a bit beyond, but not much). Really, the only places that aren't rideable year-round on the trail are the higher elevations in the La Sals.

    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    As for the Grand Loop, well, one step at a time for me. Never letting us rest on our laurels are you MC?
    Wouldn't want to disappoint you...

    MC

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Geez you guys--it's still 7.5 months away...

    Don't you have snowboards to wax...

    ..or somethin'...?!


    MC
    But it'll take that long for me to get fit enough to try it!

    And snow......what's that?

    B
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    there with bells on.

    My wife & I will be there. We're hoping to get into more and more endurance racing this year and the koko sounds like a lot of fun. We rode it with BOB's this June and loved every mile of it.
    I own and work at Hub Cyclery, Idyllwild CA

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Many women have ridden the Kokopelli route, but as yet none have completed the race. There have been rumors of women completing the route in a day, but none confirmed.
    Emily Loman did Kokopelli in a day in 2003. Trip report at http://www.climbingdreams.net/life/2003/kokopelli/

    bock

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    Very Nice!! Good to see someone step up to verify the rumors.

    Remember the "KT Race" itself is unsupported.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    psyched on doing the race.
    The self-support element makes it that more enticing.
    I got Walt to build up a frame. And I'm going to have Mike C build up the wheels (you'll get that email in a month, Mike)
    Glad you're thinking about racing. Heal well and the race should take care of itself.

    I'll be expecting the "wheel email"...

    MC

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    Quote Originally Posted by bock
    Emily Loman did Kokopelli in a day in 2003. Trip report at http://www.climbingdreams.net/life/2003/kokopelli/

    bock
    Thanks for the update, and for confirming what we suspected was true.

    For anyone that's reading this, but hasn't read the link above, it looks like the female course record is ~24hrs. It needs to be noted that that was with support.

    Please let Emily know that she's invited to race with the rest of us this spring.

    Cheers,

    MC

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Thanks for the update, and for confirming what we suspected was true.

    For anyone that's reading this, but hasn't read the link above, it looks like the female course record is ~24hrs. It needs to be noted that that was with support.

    Please let Emily know that she's invited to race with the rest of us this spring.

    Cheers,

    MC
    Mike-

    Out of curiosity....what's the geared record?

    B
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  20. #20
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    Kokopelli Records

    Quote Originally Posted by donkey
    Mike-
    Out of curiosity....what's the geared record?
    B
    The records stand at:
    Geared: 14 hours 17 minutes (Mike Curiak, 2004)
    Single speed: 14 hours, 43 minutes (Jon Brown, 2005)

    To the best of my knowledge, no woman has finished it in a day and self supported. So the first women to finish this year (geared and single) will be the official KTR course record holders.

    And while I'm sure we're not far off from having a fixed gear rider and a cx-bike finisher, we're going to limit the record keeping to geared and single.

    Curious side note about the records: In 2003 the record was set at 16 hours. Up to that point it had never been done faster than 19 hours. But why? A big part of it is that no one had really ever tried to go fast, but even bigger was that the ~5 years previous to that saw very dry winter/spring seasons, and so the sand was very deep and really slowed us down. the past three years' races have seen very wet (relatively) conditions in the weeks leading up, which has allowed racers to go much faster because of minimal walking. What we get next year is anyone guess right now, but be warned--the drought will return and when it does we won't be breaking 15 hours...

    MC

  21. #21
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    Kokopelli in a Day

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    For anyone that's reading this, but hasn't read the link above, it looks like the female course record is ~24hrs. It needs to be noted that that was with support.

    Please let Emily know that she's invited to race with the rest of us this spring.
    Just found this thread. Still fairly new to the MTBR scene. Thanks for posting my Kokopelli trip report, Bock! We had never even heard of the "official KTR" when we did the ride in 2003. Pretty cool to find out that Emily may be the first woman to have ridden it in a day. She's also the youngest (man or woman) *ever* to have finished the Hardrock 100 footrace. I think she's completed it 4 or 5 times by now. She's currently pregnant and unlikely to do the race next year though. However, I'd like to give it a shot. I think I could manage an 18-20 hour time. Sub-15 is friggin' incredible!

    I believe my friend Buzz rode the trail solo and unsupported in 1999 in around 15 hours, but he opted to skip the Yellowjacket loop. Peter Bakwin and Steph Ehret *ran* the trail in 32 hours last year! Holy Smokes!

    http://www.geocities.com/pbakwin/kokopelli.html

    Cheers,
    Stefan

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    Good job! Two In

    I'm In And I Know One Girl Who Will Be There.i Missed Last Year
    Due To Work But Not This Year!!!

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    Female record

    I read on the Adventure Sports Magazine that adventure racer Dannelle Ballangee rode Kokopelli in 24hrs - might check with her before you crown anyone.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mphart
    I read on the Adventure Sports Magazine that adventure racer Dannelle Ballangee rode Kokopelli in 24hrs - might check with her before you crown anyone.
    Geeesh! I wasn't "crowning" anyone - just thought it was cool that Emily *may* have been the first woman to do it in a day. I wouldn't be surprised a bit if Danelle has ridden it in a day. Or in well under 24 hours for that matter. There is no question that she could do it easily.

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    Quote from AS

    From Adventure Sports Magazine:

    One of the beauties of the Kokopelli is that there is no one way to ride it. Some go Fruita to Moab, others Moab to Fruita. A three-day voyage with some type of caching or support vehicle is the standard for advanced riders, while most tour operators run a fairly leisurely five-day trek. Adventure racing’s reigning queen, Danelle Ballangee, has ticked it off in just over 24 hours as a training ride. It has been completed in three days, unsupported, on single-speed bikes. And endurance god Mike Curiak hammered it in 16 hours last May in the Kokopelli Mountain Bike Race. No matter, the Kokopelli is more than just a long ride. It’s far harder than it seems, but over and over on the trail you lose yourself in the landscape.

    Read the full article here.

    When I rode it with Emily, we rode from Fruita to Moab.

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    What exactly does unsupported mean? Can you cache stuff on the route to pick up or have to have everything with you on the start line?

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    That's a great question

    and one that I've been wondering myself.

    Perhaps it will be a good idea to get a general agreement on what is and what is not allowed...?

    Personally, I interpret the rules to mean:

    NO outside food/water support.

    NO outside mech support.

    NO outside medical support.

    NO pre-planned pacelines.

    Of course, if I come across someone who needed mechanical or medical help, I will do what I can - which includes calling for paramedics. I still haven't done my pre-rides, so I need to check if I get phone reception out there. And there's always walkie-talkies...

    What makes this race so appealing to me is the fact that not only do you have to be a strong rider, you also have to be self-reliant.
    Last edited by 514Climber; 11-26-2005 at 11:50 AM.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by fairyweatherider
    What exactly does unsupported mean? Can you cache stuff on the route to pick up or have to have everything with you on the start line?
    No caches, no drops, no sag vehicles. Carry all that you need or do without.

    The one exception is water--if you find it (in streams, creeks, rivers) you can filter or treat it and take it with you. You can also plan to ride off-course to get water (Westwater Ranger Station) or food (Cisco store if it's open) but both of those options will cost you time if you're trying to go fast.

    The guiding principal is to be self-supported. As in NO outside assistance. That means you need to be prepared for all conditions you'll get out there, from 25 degrees in the wee hours to 100+ in the afternoon. You need to have food and light to get you through from start to finish, however long that may take. One racer took 24+ hours to finish last year, and there might have been more that finished if they had been better prepared.

    And (here's the important part) while there are other people out there riding, 4-wheeling, camping, etc... the spirit of the race is to not lean on these people for assistance unless you're in a bad situation that can't be solved on your own. That means a broken leg or a broken frame. Just because you decided to skip filtering water at the last creek does not mean that someone else should come to rescue your dehydrated carcass. If you bring a CO2 inflator instead of a pump, and it malfunctions or you run out of cartridges, don't ask someone else to save your ass. Start hoofing it and, as you walk, think about the error of your ways.

    I'm sure it seems to some people that this is excessively puritanical. Call it whatever you want. It is a race for adults that know what they're getting into and how to take care of themselves. If you don't agree or aren't into that, there are plenty of 24-hour and 100-mile events out there that will scratch your particular itch.

    Thanks,

    MC

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    It's settled then...

    Clear and concise rules - which, of course, reduce the potential for any misinterpretation.

    A race like the KTR should exist...Not to feed egos, and certainly not to say one form of racing is better than another.

    It should just exist...

    I'll see you all next spring!
    Last edited by 514Climber; 11-26-2005 at 01:55 PM. Reason: grammar

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    I think you may be seeing me there too

  31. #31
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    Spirit of the ride.

    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    Clear and concise rules - which, of course, reduce the potential for any misinterpretation.

    A race like the KTR should exist...Not to feed egos, and certainly not to say one form of racing is better than another.

    It should just exist...

    I'll see you all next spring!
    I hope the spirit of the ride remains just as you describe it because that is what attracts me to it.

    I was there 2 weeks ago starting on the CO side to do some pre-riding. Day 1 I succumbed to Mary's Loop and rode every trail there in one shot. So much for expanding my horizons. Day 2 I finally broke away and rode the Kokopelli proper from Mack to Westwater and back. I succumbed again though and rode the Westwater singletrack that parallels the official KT route. Oh well Got back to the car in the pitch dark.

    I was going to go out again this weekend to continue pre-riding from Westwater and go further west but with the major change in the weather decided against it. The skis are calling to me.

    Not sure I've seen the official pronouncement on direction of the race this year. Since it went Moab to Fruita this year should we assume Fruita to Moab next year?

    Ed E
    Last edited by edemtbs; 11-26-2005 at 06:56 PM.

  32. #32
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    Sorry, but I just gotta know...

    Ok Mike, I'll bite: given great conditions (soil moisture, creeks to take water from, astral alignments & ect.) how fast could the Grand Loop be done?

    My wild guess is 55 hours.

    29erchico

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    Quote Originally Posted by 29erchico
    Ok Mike, I'll bite: given great conditions (soil moisture, creeks to take water from, astral alignments & ect.) how fast could the Grand Loop be done? My wild guess is 55 hours.
    I wish I knew what that answer was, because then I wouldn't have to go do it again to try to find out!

    Your guess of 55 hours might be possible in theory. I think if conditions were optimal and I was fit and didn't make any major mistakes I might be able to get close to 60. That's my goal anyway. But the route is so difficult, and the conditions so unpredictable, that you just pay your money (proverbially speaking) and take your chances, and if you happen to have it together enough to merely finish, you truly don't care about the time it took.

    Here's to a wet winter, and early spring, and cool temps the first week of June...

    MC

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    Just wanted to let everyone know that the Kokopelli Trail Race now has it's own webpage.

    All together now:

    AAAAAAWWWWWWWWWwwwwwwwwwwwww...

    Find it, and more KTR info, here:
    http://greatdividerace.com/_wsn/page4.html

    Cheers,

    MC

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    Excellent. Thanks.

    FYI - the "2006 Kokopelli Discussion" link on your KTR website errors.

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    I'd like to know how rough the trail actually is?

    I'm thinking about 2007, my physical condition this year, while greatly improved is NOT up to doing it this year! However, 07 remains possible! I'd like to know about the actual terrain! Is it more equipment stress, rider stress or both together?
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormcrowe
    I'd like to know about the actual terrain! Is it more equipment stress, rider stress or both together?
    It is 142 miles if you stay on course - 145 miles if you detour up to Westwater ranger station for a water refill. I'd say both together. Equipment stress depends greatly on the weather and rider stress depends on how smartly you have trained, fuel and pace on race day - and how bad you want it.

    All in all it's a big undertaking.

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    New question here.

    Quote Originally Posted by LyndaW
    It is 142 miles if you stay on course - 145 miles if you detour up to Westwater ranger station for a water refill. I'd say both together. Equipment stress depends greatly on the weather and rider stress depends on how smartly you have trained, fuel and pace on race day - and how bad you want it.

    All in all it's a big undertaking.
    Reason I was asking, I'm thinking about 2007. 2006 is NOT possible this year, due to lack of physical condition. As some background here:
    I've dropped 321 pounds since March this year. I've gone from a wheelchair to a mountainbike. I was on Oxygen at 10 liters/minute, due to pulmonary problems associated with my weight. I blew up due to a pituitary disorder and had bariatric surgery, and have made MAJOR inroads into my health problems, and have gotten to the point where I can ride 30-60 miles at a 15-18 mph pace on a mountainbike with an average of 500 foot fluctuations in terrain up and down. I am now off the oxygen and maintaining 97% saturation and not dropping below 85% even under stress while riding hills. Best I can do here in Indiana! Am I nuts to be thinking about this? Any advice to prepare for this event will be greatly appreciated! I think I can do this and that's half the battle! The other half is preparation! I can tell you this much, I WANT THIS SO BAD I CAN TASTE IT! I don't care if I place high, I only care if I finish it! Of course finishing in front would be nice though!

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    Wow! you've made amazing progress. I bet you feel like a million bucks. Good for you. With that attitude and progression KTR may be in your 2007 plan but you need to keep working up to it in baby steps.

    I'd recommend doing a few long distance events that have options to bail out and have lots of support to test yourself before trying KTR. In 2006 try out a solo 6-hour then solo 12-hour race on a lapped course where you can do fewer laps and have a support crew check on you every hour. Then move onto a 100 miler with less support. Those are the steps to take enroute to a KTR finish.

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    Good job! Cool, you just described my gameplan to a T!

    Quote Originally Posted by LyndaW
    Wow! you've made amazing progress. I bet you feel like a million bucks. Good for you. With that attitude and progression KTR may be in your 2007 plan but you need to keep working up to it in baby steps.

    I'd recommend doing a few long distance events that have options to bail out and have lots of support to test yourself before trying KTR. In 2006 try out a solo 6-hour then solo 12-hour race on a lapped course where you can do fewer laps and have a support crew check on you every hour. Then move onto a 100 miler with less support. Those are the steps to take enroute to a KTR finish.
    Thanks for the Kudos, Lynda! Yeah, that is my general gameplan, along with 2 long tours, a 256 miler over Spring Break(I'm an overage College student) and a ride to Key West from central Indiana over summer break. I'll be competing in the 12 hrs of DINO in October, and plan to ride the Huntington County 140 on/off road 2 day as well in September. I'm currently able to hold HR in the 180's with no discomfort as well! Not bad for a fat 45 year old! By the way, I don't feel like a million bucks, you're a bit short! I feel like $10,000.00 compared to where I was a year ago! Maybe I'll see ya there! Keep spinnin!

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    Trail Condition

    Has anyone been on the section at the end lately, down by Loma? It was really washed out and rutted (like 2' deep ruts) 2 years ago...which is the only time I have done it. Awesome ride otherwise.

    Also, has anyone ever done this ride on a tandem?

    Thanks,

    Wade

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    i've thought about it, and i've thought about it, and i'm in. i want to race the kokopelli this year. anything i need to do to get in? i had your email earlier mike, then i lost it. how many do you expect this year? there seems to be alot of interest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrwmojo
    i've thought about it, and i've thought about it, and i'm in. i want to race the kokopelli this year. anything i need to do to get in? i had your email earlier mike, then i lost it. how many do you expect this year? there seems to be alot of interest.
    People are coming out of the woodwork with questions and "commitments". How many? Won't know until race day.

    All you need to do is show up at the pre-race meeting, then at the race start line. No entry fee, no registration.

    See ya there.

    MC

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    Quote Originally Posted by wadejr
    Has anyone been on the section at the end lately, down by Loma? It was really washed out and rutted (like 2' deep ruts) 2 years ago...which is the only time I have done it. Awesome ride otherwise.

    Also, has anyone ever done this ride on a tandem?

    Thanks,

    Wade
    Some of the descent from the Rabbit Valley overlook to Salt Creek is as you describe--deep ruts. Combined with steep trail and very little use, it's a safe bet that it's not going to repair itself before the race. That means be prepared to dismount and walk unless you are an A+ tech rider and on top of your game after 130+ miles in the saddle.

    No idea on the tandem ?.

    Anyone?

    MC

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    Ruts...

    I was there in early/mid November and it was the same as in years past. Like MC said, don't expect it to change by race day.

    Ed E

    Quote Originally Posted by wadejr
    Has anyone been on the section at the end lately, down by Loma? It was really washed out and rutted (like 2' deep ruts) 2 years ago...which is the only time I have done it. Awesome ride otherwise.

    Also, has anyone ever done this ride on a tandem?

    Thanks,

    Wade

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    A Logistic Question

    How do you fellow racers plan to return to Moab?

    I plan on parking in Moab - which means I'll need a shuttle back from Fruita.

    Is there a shuttle service in Fruita that will give the racers a ride back? If so, how much will it cost?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    How do you fellow racers plan to return to Moab?

    I plan on parking in Moab - which means I'll need a shuttle back from Fruita.

    Is there a shuttle service in Fruita that will give the racers a ride back? If so, how much will it cost?
    We usually just find a group with similar schedules, and do the car shuttle beforehand so that when you hit the finish your car is there.

    Chris Kostman browbeat me into agreeing to ride from GJ back to Moab (the day after the race) last year. But then he didn't show up...

    I don't know of a shuttle service--maybe just wait until the date gets closer and then we can start to match people up with rides.

    MC

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    Thanks

    I'll definitely have to get in the loop for that shuttle service. As race day approaches let's all do our best to coordinate a viable schedule.

    I am more than happy to kick in $$$ for gas.

    Peace and happy training everyone.

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    I'm considering this race. Not sure if it's going to work out with my work schedule yet. I have a boatload of questions but I won't ask them all at once. First off, tires. I run a GF 29'er. I was thinking of trying Maxxis Ignitors and running them tubeless with Stans. Is this a good tire choice for the Kokopelli Trail? I have run Stans in my 26 inch tires with good results. Although Stans doesn't recommend any folding tires with a 29 conversion, it sounds like many have had good luck running the Maxxis Ignitors. Any thoughts!!!

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by 71 10-7
    I'm considering this race. Not sure if it's going to work out with my work schedule yet. I have a boatload of questions but I won't ask them all at once. First off, tires. I run a GF 29'er. I was thinking of trying Maxxis Ignitors and running them tubeless with Stans. Is this a good tire choice for the Kokopelli Trail? I have run Stans in my 26 inch tires with good results. Although Stans doesn't recommend any folding tires with a 29 conversion, it sounds like many have had good luck running the Maxxis Ignitors. Any thoughts!!!
    i used the same tires front and rear for it last year and would have no reason to consider using any other tire. they worked perfectly fine. I used tubes though. Zero flats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    i used the same tires front and rear for it last year and would have no reason to consider using any other tire. they worked perfectly fine. I used tubes though. Zero flats.
    Thanks Spookykinkajou,

    I may also run tubes, we'll see. What the volume on the Maxxis like? I have stock Bontrager XR's (2.25 front/2.2 rear). They're nice and big. I checked with Shiggy's site but didn't find the 29er Maxxis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 71 10-7
    I may also run tubes, we'll see. What the volume on the Maxxis like? I have stock Bontrager XR's (2.25 front/2.2 rear). They're nice and big. I checked with Shiggy's site but didn't find the 29er Maxxis.
    I'd echo what SKJ said and add in that the course has so much variety that it's hard to choose a bad tire. There are large amounts of hardpack, ledges, pavement (well, chip seal), and sand, and nothing is going to be ideal on all of it. I think the best tire for this course is the one that you're most comfortable with. If in doubt, err on the side of larger volume--your joints will thank you in the days following the race.

    To specifically address your Maxxis/Bontrager tire question, the Maxxis has slightly less volume than the Bontrager.

    MC

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    Thanks for the info MC. I just ordered a map online from the BLM and I'm hoping this will give me a better idea about what I may be getting myself into. I've never rode this trail and most likely will not be able to pre-ride any of it (I'm from MN). I'm sure I'll have more questions in the coming weeks/months. To the trainer

  54. #54
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    Are GPs systems allowed during the race?
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    Are GPs systems allowed during the race?
    Yep. No silly, senseless rules here (You must carry a baton, you must sign in after each lap, pee only in designated areas) etc.... Carry whatever you think you need, and nothing you don't. Ride the course exclusively under your own power, and accept no outside help. That's pretty much it.

    MC

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Yep. No silly, senseless rules here (You must carry a baton, you must sign in after each lap, pee only in designated areas) etc.... Carry whatever you think you need, and nothing you don't. Ride the course exclusively under your own power, and accept no outside help. That's pretty much it.

    MC



    I am looking forward to this race.
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  57. #57
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    Trail markings

    I am in for the KTR this year. A couple of flatlanders from Michigan are coming out to race. So the question is:

    What kind of trail markings are on the KTR? Color, frequency, etc....

    I have all the maps, only one mentions that trail markers are at the intersections.

    Answers would be appreciated.

    ---Chad

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsbike
    I am in for the KTR this year. A couple of flatlanders from Michigan are coming out to race. So the question is: What kind of trail markings are on the KTR? Color, frequency, etc....
    I have all the maps, only one mentions that trail markers are at the intersections.
    ---Chad
    Chad-

    Most of the markings are BLM standard brown carsonite. They look like this:



    ...except that they are brown, and have little Kokopelli emblems on them. The ones on the Kokopelli are about 40" high by about 4" wide, and they'll also have a directional arrow on them (usually telling you to turn, but sometimes just telling you to keep on goin' straight).

    Frequency? Good question. Not every turn is marked, but most of them are. For most of the route, although there are many divergent trails, the Kokopelli is the main travel route. Meaning that most traffic is going the same way as you, and the condition of the trail makes this obvious. You will rarely (only once that I can think of) turn off onto a lesser used trail, so simply paying attention to the level of use of each trail (at intersections where there is no marking) will tell you all you need to know 95% of the time.

    And the other 5%? That's why you carry the map and COPMOBA pamphlet--just in case.

    If you keep your head up and pay attention, route finding will not be a problem. If you start to bonk and get lazy, and find yourself staring at your front tire for any length of time, WAKE UP! Then stop and determine if you're still on the right trail.

    Let me know if you need clarification.

    MC

  59. #59
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    Trail Markers

    Chad,

    I thought I might add a few things to Mike's comments above.

    The markers are quite frequent, although probably not every mile, as I've seen them described. I found that it's easy to miss them going downhill. You might want to keep a closer eye while descending if you haven't been on the trail before.

    I agree with Mike that the most travelled (main) route is usually the best way to go. I can think of at least three places where that's not the case though (at least to my instincts), and I'm (somewhat) familiar with the route. There might be a few more places that aren't obvious to someone not familiar with the area. Again, keep a close eye for those brown kokopelli posts, and be ready to turn around if you aren't seeing them anymore.

    It sounds like you've got a good selection of maps. I'm sure you have the Latitude 40 Grand Junction map. I'd also recommend the Latitude 40 Moab East map if you don't have it. It covers the first half of the trail really well.

    Good luck in May!

    Fred

  60. #60
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    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Chad-

    Most of the markings are BLM standard brown carsonite. They look like this:



    ...except that they are brown, and have little Kokopelli emblems on them. The ones on the Kokopelli are about 40" high by about 4" wide, and they'll also have a directional arrow on them (usually telling you to turn, but sometimes just telling you to keep on goin' straight).

    Frequency? Good question. Not every turn is marked, but most of them are. For most of the route, although there are many divergent trails, the Kokopelli is the main travel route. Meaning that most traffic is going the same way as you, and the condition of the trail makes this obvious. You will rarely (only once that I can think of) turn off onto a lesser used trail, so simply paying attention to the level of use of each trail (at intersections where there is no marking) will tell you all you need to know 95% of the time.

    And the other 5%? That's why you carry the map and COPMOBA pamphlet--just in case.

    If you keep your head up and pay attention, route finding will not be a problem. If you start to bonk and get lazy, and find yourself staring at your front tire for any length of time, WAKE UP! Then stop and determine if you're still on the right trail.

    Let me know if you need clarification.

    MC
    Mike and Fred,

    Thanks for the answers. The trail is well marked, from the descriptions given to me.

    See all of you in May. I will be the tall, skinny guy riding the red/silver GF Sugar 29er.

    ----Chad

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    Looks like fun...

    ...in a sick sort of way. Count me in!
    Dave

    Anything is possible. The impossible just takes longer.

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    Paging MC

    Quote: "That's why you carry the map and COPMOBA pamphlet--just in case."

    Will I be able to pick up a COPMOBA pamphet or maps the Friday before the race in GJ/Fruita/Loma? Any chance this material or similar will be at the pre-race meeting? I've twice requested the BLM map but havn't received it yet!!! Thank's in advance for any info.

    Dave

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    I just came across this. It was published last month, so I expect it is up to date. anyone already have a copy of it?

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...15987231464000
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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    I just came across this. It was published last month, so I expect it is up to date. anyone already have a copy of it?

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...15987231464000

    Even though I've never seen it, I have to believe it's far better than anything else available. Whomever is the first to order it, read through it and let us know what you think.

    Thanks,

    MC

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by 71 10-7
    Will I be able to pick up a COPMOBA pamphet or maps the Friday before the race in GJ/Fruita/Loma? Any chance this material or similar will be at the pre-race meeting? I've twice requested the BLM map but havn't received it yet!!! Thank's in advance for any info.Dave
    Don't bank on it. Check out the Amazon.com link below...

    MC

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    New Kokopelli Guidebook

    Hi all, I was just alerted to this forum, someone said you were talking about me...

    I wrote the guidebook you've been referring to, just published it last month. It's starting to get some airtime thru forums like this & it's pretty flattering - thanks!

    So I read thru your thread & it sounds like you've got this race pretty well wired. I may be able to cast some light. My guidebook is based on about 5 years of running Bikerpelli, an annual Kokopelli trail trip. It's IMO the most accurate & thorough guide in existence. A few caveats for your purposes - the mile-by-mile is written from Loma to Moab, the opposite of your direction I think? It can be reversed but bits like "this is an easy turn to miss" don't necessarily apply going the other direction.

    There's another guide out there by Peggy Utesch, it's on Amazon, hers is written in the opposite direction and may be more applicable for you.

    For the most part you shouldn't need a guide to find the trail. What is invaluable I believe are the Latitude 40 maps - Fruita/GJ and Moab East. These detail 95% of the trail and can really save your butt. I wouldn't recommend riding the trail w/o them. Yes the trail is well marked but the signs can be missed or even vandalized, it usually happens to a few folks every year on our trips, and that's daylight travel. In reality if you carry the maps you probably won't break them iout but a few times, but those few times could save you hours or your life - definitely worth it.

    What I don't like about the Utesch guide (apart from the fact that it's 16 yrs old) is that it does very little to help you prepare for the trail. That's what I wanted to improve upon with mine & half the book deals with that alone. That part may be very helpful to you. Water spots, cache spots, landmarks, bailouts, endurance & tech expectations, gear, etc.

    All the same, the Bikerpelli site is loaded with good trail info that you may also find useful, that's free of course. If you opt to order my guide thru Bikerpelli you also get a copy of the COPMOBA map it sounds like you're having trouble finding. We've got the lat 40 maps too, as does your local shop probably.

    Best of luck to all of you taking on this challenge, it will take a rare determination - I admire that. If I can help please let me know.

    Alex.
    www.bikerpelli.com

  67. #67
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    Hey Alex thanks for the details. It appears that your 06 tour and the KTR might overlap in dates. Maybe we will see you out there on the trail. Oh, and if you find some half dead cyclist rummaging for food at your lunch stops you may know why
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    I am almost “in” for this KTR. Just ordered Alex’s trail guide from Amazon, should have waited till I read his post.

    This would be a huge jump up from the other supported/daytime endurance events I have done, Leadville and Durango.

    I have ridden bits and pieces of the Kokopelli trail over the years and am generally familiar with the type of terrain and weather but there are two areas I have questions on and would appreciate anyone’s observations.

    First and foremost - Water strategies

    I have never ‘filtered’ water and was wondering about equipment choices and basic techniques? I intend to get a filtration unit and ‘practice’ on some up coming rides but would like to avoid as many beginners mistakes as possible.

    Locations to re-supply with filtered water
    • I am assuming there will be several creek crossings in the 1st half/La Sal section of the trail? (Start to Dewy Bridge) I read in the 2004 KTR results that Fisher Creek was used to filter water but my map shows at least two times we will cross Fisher, will both crossings generally have water flowing in May? Any other logical filter location crossings in the first half?
    • In the Second half of the trail (Dewy to Loma) it looks like we would have 2 locations to filter from the Colorado River with out actually leaving the trail, Dewy and Cisco Landing? Anyone ever filtered from the sandy Colorado River? Then there would be the Westwater River Ranger Station about 1.5 miles off course? BLM site says the water from the station is not always available but I would assume it probably would be in May, if not you could filter here as you would be down to the river?
    Any general comments about water strategies; gear, amounts carried, etc on what has worked well in the past?


    Second concern – Lighting

    I know I will not finish before ‘full’ dark. That means I will need good lighting/battery on the last part of the trail, especially with all the remaining single track. With a 3:00am start I will have already used about 2.5 hrs of battery. My current system is only good for about 2.5 hrs so that means extra batteries or a new system. I am leaning towards a new system with, one or to lithium-ion batteries. Any comments or suggestions? Has anyone tried out the new NiteRider Moab HID unit? Claimed 12 hr runtime at 720g?

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    Quote Originally Posted by trail717
    Locations to re-supply with filtered water
    • I am assuming there will be several creek crossings in the 1st half/La Sal section of the trail? (Start to Dewy Bridge) I read in the 2004 KTR results that Fisher Creek was used to filter water but my map shows at least two times we will cross Fisher, will both crossings generally have water flowing in May? Any other logical filter location crossings in the first half?
    • In the Second half of the trail (Dewy to Loma) it looks like we would have 2 locations to filter from the Colorado River with out actually leaving the trail, Dewy and Cisco Landing? Anyone ever filtered from the sandy Colorado River? Then there would be the Westwater River Ranger Station about 1.5 miles off course? BLM site says the water from the station is not always available but I would assume it probably would be in May, if not you could filter here as you would be down to the river?
    Any general comments about water strategies; gear, amounts carried, etc on what has worked well in the past?
    Here's the deal with H2O at Westwater ranger station - they have a ranch-style spigot but claim it's for emergencies only. That's the "sometimes available" part, they may let you, they may not. It's kept locked normally. You can pump from the CO river right there or numerous other spots but as one pioneer put it years ago, "too thin to plow, too thick to drink." You'll have to clean your filter a good bit. Wrap a bandanna around the filter inlet to save some cleaning, it'll keep a lot of silt out.

    You may get lucky at a couple drainage ditches west of there but it's hit or miss based ono the weather lately. Count on that water being just as silty. Same from that point to Salt Creek (mile 130 for you), you may get lucky at a couple ditches, don't count on it.

    In the La Sal's you'll find water in a few spots. There's a secret spring at Castle valley, a good dependable flow around N Beaver Mesa & sometimes at Hideout Canyon. Don't use Onion Creek, it's polluted with old mining operation runoff.

  70. #70
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    I felt, last year, my HID was total overkill for the beginning. I was really wishing I didn't have the extra weight in my pack. For this year I'm considering just using a petzel to start off, but I don't think I'll finish in the dark.

    Were that the case, and you don't want to spend $. I would get a cheap light for the start because the road is wide open and relatively smooth and then use your good light for the finish.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    I felt, last year, my HID was total overkill for the beginning. I was really wishing I didn't have the extra weight in my pack. For this year I'm considering just using a petzel to start off, but I don't think I'll finish in the dark.

    Were that the case, and you don't want to spend $. I would get a cheap light for the start because the road is wide open and relatively smooth and then use your good light for the finish.
    Excellent suggestion, you saved me some money and more important some weight!! Snow/winter conditions allowing I hope to be able to pre-ride the La Sal section but may not be able to. I road the Moab/Porcupine Rim/Moab loop last year so I have ridden the first couple of miles of the start, Sand Flats road up to the Porcupine Rim Trail turn off, and agree a ‘cheap’ petzel type light would work well with this easy road and lower ‘climbing’ speeds. So I could expect the trail conditions to be mostly similar till sunrise, no rocky descents type terrain till after 1st light?

    Thanks

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Hearn
    Here's the deal with H2O at Westwater ranger station - they have a ranch-style spigot but claim it's for emergencies only. That's the "sometimes available" part, they may let you, they may not. It's kept locked normally. You can pump from the CO river right there or numerous other spots but as one pioneer put it years ago, "too thin to plow, too thick to drink." You'll have to clean your filter a good bit. Wrap a bandanna around the filter inlet to save some cleaning, it'll keep a lot of silt out.

    You may get lucky at a couple drainage ditches west of there but it's hit or miss based ono the weather lately. Count on that water being just as silty. Same from that point to Salt Creek (mile 130 for you), you may get lucky at a couple ditches, don't count on it.

    In the La Sal's you'll find water in a few spots. There's a secret spring at Castle valley, a good dependable flow around N Beaver Mesa & sometimes at Hideout Canyon. Don't use Onion Creek, it's polluted with old mining operation runoff.

    Thanks for the tips and info, I am looking forward to studying your new Kokopelli’s Trail Guide.

    I will be getting a chance to practice your ‘bandanna around the filter inlet’ tip on that tasty old Colorado River water in March.

    Hopefully during the race I can just use the spigot at the Westwater ranger station. However I want to have a tried and proven water option/method especially on the last half of the trail!.

  73. #73
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    Excellent!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Hearn
    Hi all, I was just alerted to this forum, someone said you were talking about me...

    I wrote the guidebook you've been referring to, just published it last month. It's starting to get some airtime thru forums like this & it's pretty flattering - thanks!

    Alex.
    www.bikerpelli.com
    The book's on order from Amazon.

    Good info being posted here by everyone - thanks!

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    I felt, last year, my HID was total overkill for the beginning. I was really wishing I didn't have the extra weight in my pack. For this year I'm considering just using a petzel to start off, but I don't think I'll finish in the dark.

    Were that the case, and you don't want to spend $. I would get a cheap light for the start because the road is wide open and relatively smooth and then use your good light for the finish.
    This is my line of thinking as well. I plan on finishing before dark, but you never know...I'd hate to get caught in the dark without some real lights to get me home. What are the final 10-20 miles of the trail like?

    I am thinking that 2 BLT Ozone 9ines might be perfect for this race. They are cheap, they burn for a long time and are very light and easy to carry. The $64,000 question though is...are they bright enough to get me down some tough single track? I would guess that for dirt roads and jeep track that they would be adequate. Anyone have any time with these lights?
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    This is my line of thinking as well. I plan on finishing before dark, but you never know...I'd hate to get caught in the dark without some real lights to get me home. What are the final 10-20 miles of the trail like?

    I am thinking that 2 BLT Ozone 9ines might be perfect for this race. They are cheap, they burn for a long time and are very light and easy to carry. The $64,000 question though is...are they bright enough to get me down some tough single track? I would guess that for dirt roads and jeep track that they would be adequate. Anyone have any time with these lights?
    The last 15 miles are part of the popular Kokopelli’s Loop Trail Area, there are about 5 loops here and the main trail uses sections of several of these loops. Several intersections to contend with and a lot of single track, some rocky, a dismount or two, some cliff exposure etc. Some of the trail is rated black diamond, some medium and some rated easy on local trail maps. If you hit this section in the early evening and have any thing left you are in for a single-track treat.

    However after full dark I personally would not ‘ride’ a lot of this final section with out a top line light. If I lost a main light I could probably ride/walk it with a weak backup type light as I am familiar with this final section.

    Note: This IS probably the most fun and convenient section of the course to pre-ride if you arrive in the area early enough on your way to Moab.

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    Water Strategy

    Start light for the climbing. Refill at N.Beaver Mesa. That should get us to Westwater ranger station no problem. Westwater is the last refill to my knowledge.
    What can we expect at Westwater Station? Open or closed tap? Is filtering river water good enough?
    What is best water strategy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    This is my line of thinking as well. I plan on finishing before dark, but you never know...I'd hate to get caught in the dark without some real lights to get me home. What are the final 10-20 miles of the trail like?
    Do not get caught out there without good lights! Even if you 'think' you'll finish before dark, have at least two hours of 'reserve' on your good lights--you won't regret it.

    The last 10-20 miles are some of the most techy of the whole race. Not crazy stuff, but there's some exposure, lots of ledges and rocks, and you can rarely see very far ahead. Without a good light, in the dark, you'll be walking a significant portion (50%+) here, or riding at walking pace.

    MC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    I felt, last year, my HID was total overkill for the beginning. I was really wishing I didn't have the extra weight in my pack. For this year I'm considering just using a petzel to start off, but I don't think I'll finish in the dark.
    Don't forget abou the 40mph descent on twisty, cracked pavement just before sunrise. We hit it with some light last year, but you'll probably get there sooner this year...


    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    Were that the case, and you don't want to spend $. I would get a cheap light for the start because the road is wide open and relatively smooth and then use your good light for the finish.
    Good idea. Don't leave the good light at home folks--you're gonna need it at some point, guaranteed.

    MC

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    The weather was perfect...

    So this being Colorado, the weather was perfect for riding this weekend and Friday afternoon I headed to Fruita to scout some more of the Koko. Stopped by MC's to pick up my new wheelset - can I just say two words here - "They Totally Rock!". Ok three words. Highly recommended.

    On Saturday I rode from Westwater and headed west. Started a bit late in the day. Changed to an 18 tooth cog at the trailhead and then Space CadEd spent about one hour dorking around with the chain - once a year I go thru a re-learning process on links and chains. I dorked around enough to where I ruined one of the links and it broke 3 times during the ride before I finally chucked it. Stomped on it at Bookcliffs today so I think it's fixed.

    So, riding the desert is awesome. I'm tooling along and there is nary a wisp of wind but there in front of me a ghostly sight. A column of tumbleweeds about 50 feet high was rising and falling in it's own little twister as it moved across the scrubland. It was totally silent and watching this bizarre sight was spooky in a really good way.

    Uh, goatheads were EVERYWHERE. Luckily brand new Bonty Jones at 38 psi fended off all thorns so this retroTube guy had no flats. Be warned.

    Then the fun starts. I'm out a ways and as I usually do when scouting, I stop frequently to take a look behind me so I can understand the return trip a bit better. Well, on one stop, just as I was thinking I better turn around so I don't get caught out in the dark, I spot a large herd of sheep appearing out of no where behind me and quickly mowing their way towards the trail I was to return on. DANG!! For those of you unfamiliar with what this means I'll tell you. I decided to turn around right then and high tail it back so's I could beat them sheep and get past 'em without a hastle. Well I almost made it. I was just scooting by the first few which were about 50-100 feet off trail and thought I had made it when I suddenly saw a sheep running VERY fast right at me. I knew I was screwed. Then I saw another sheep and another, all three of them tearing for me. I stopped immediately!

    Well these weren't sheep, these were very large, white sheep dogs and they ain't friendly let me tell you. They barked and snarled a lot and they surrounded me. I thought the most aggressive dog was going to bite me. It actually touched my leg with it's muzzle as it snapped at me. Not a pleasant feeling. I couldn't do anything. If I moved the slightest bit it would provoke an attack, if I ventured a look into the face of one of the dogs it would enrage them. There was no one around. I just stood there, staring at the horizon, talking in a low voice to the dogs. I think I said "Good dog." a hundred freakin' times. One of them was behind me, one to my side and that mean one sniffing me all over - he finally popped a squat right next to me and took a nice healthy dump. Very sweet, who's the boss?

    Needless to say I escaped unscathed after about 20 mins of more angry bluffs and barking. Luckily I am not scared of dogs and I figured these dogs, even as vicous as they acted, were trained to keep predators away from the sheep and that's it. So I was nervous but I wasn't terrified. I have no idea what would have happened if I was scared and tried to run - worst thing in the world to do. I was also lucky in that the herd of sheep decided to move away from us instead of settling down and the dogs eventually followed them leaving me alone. So, if you see a herd of sheep out there, be aware, but stay calm. Dealing with three mean dogs is not easy.

    So that's a Koko story for February. More pre-rides coming up I'm sure. Stay tuned.

    See ya

    Ed E
    Last edited by edemtbs; 02-12-2006 at 11:08 PM.

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    we don't need no stinkin' lights?

    First off, I am confused. Does the race start at 3-4am or midnight? The website suggests midnight. Why the change?

    I don't know if MC planned it this way, but May 13th is on a full moon. Thus it seems no lights will be necessary to climb up that first road. Will we get to the downhill before or after dawn? The end of the race will depend on whether the start is at midnight or 3 am I guess. The moon will not be up again until 30 minutes after civil twilight (twilight: 8:50pm, moonrise 9:20pm) so if you're out there late you'll need lights in the evening for at least a short period.

    http://aa.usno.navy.mil/cgi-bin/aa_pap.pl

    I'm not even sure if I can get away to race the KTR, however it is clearly on my mind: I had a dream last night that I raced the KTR and it was super easy and only took me 5 hours to complete. Guess I'm feeling positive about it. It was also a loop around a large lake instead of a desert point to point, so reality was distorted in a number of ways.
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    Start time

    Hey Everyone-

    Sorry about the lack of communication lately. Those of you who've started your own business need no explanation about where I've been. Those of you who haven't, I'll just say that sleep (even an hour or so) has been more important to me lately...

    The start time for the Kokopelli Trail Race has been changed to midnight. The main reason for this was to encourage more finishers.

    Over the last 5 years of putting this race together, the bulk of non-finishers have resulted from still being way out on the course when the sun goes down. This info was gleaned from conversations with the DNF's from the last few years.

    While few directly referenced 'darkness' as the main reason for their withdrawing from the race, they all indirectly pointed to the fact that they'd started in the dark, ridden all through the heat of the day, and were heading back into the dark. Few had prepared to do so, either with lights, clothing, food, or, most importantly, mentally. Faced with many more miles of trail, much of it technical, with little food, little light, little energy, and far less motivation, and it's easy to see why so many people pulled the plug before finishing.

    But, you're asking, why change the start?

    Based on the conversations I had with many of the DNF's, as well as the informal KTR "board of directors", we concluded that starting at midnight would eliminate the 'going into the second night' DNF's for two reasons. Primarily because few will start the race without enough light to get to the first dawn (and for 98% of the racers that's all the darkness they'll see), but also because they'll be much farther along in the day and far, far more likely to be done before the coming of the second night.

    Hope that makes sense to you. Don't hesitate to ask for clarification.

    Thanks,

    MC

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    Different dynamics...

    A midnight start is a significant change, to say the least. Everyone has to plan a minimum of 6 hours night riding. At least this will minimize the afternoon ride time if you're flying...

    A lot can happen in 6 hours of night riding. How far do you figure the faster riders will go in 6 hours? Dewey perhaps? Is that section all dirt road or mixed with single/double track?

    I'm also wondering if the new start time will impact route finding or water visibility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    A midnight start is a significant change, to say the least. Everyone has to plan a minimum of 6 hours night riding. At least this will minimize the afternoon ride time if you're flying... A lot can happen in 6 hours of night riding. How far do you figure the faster riders will go in 6 hours? Dewey perhaps? Is that section all dirt road or mixed with single/double track?

    I'm also wondering if the new start time will impact route finding or water visibility.
    You're right, it is significant, and I'm glad that you noted that it's "different". I think it's advantageous in many ways, and a slight disadvantage in others, but not better or worse overall--just different.

    We wanted to make sure that everyone was planning properly (without creating rules that mandate what one must carry) for the darkness.
    -The upshot is that almost no one will need to go back into the dark on the second night, and overall temps for most will be cooler (because they'll ride less in the heat of the afternoon).
    -The downside is that some will be carrying 'more light'. For some nothing will change because they already had 6 hours of light on them.

    Overall, I think that routefinding will be easier (yes, easier) as the markings are reflective and you'll have fewer visual distractions to contend with in the dark.

    I don't think there will be any change in ability to find water. Fisher Creek runs right under the road and you smell/hear it before you see it. The only other water source that we'll cross in the dark is a small stream that we have to cross through, twice, to get down the trail.

    I don't think anyone will make it to Dewey in the dark. I think it usually takes closer to 7 (or more) hours to get there. The section from the start to Dewey, like the rest of the trail, has a little of everything; doubletrack, singletrack, pavement, ledgy/technical, etc...

    MC

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    I am curious what people are going to do for lights. I have a few ideas but I have not been able to test them. I am thinking of going with 2 lesser lights on my handlebars, rather than pack around the Hid with its big bulky batteries. If I can find a set up that will burn for a long time, and still provide enough rideable light then I should be set. Of course finding the right set up is the trick.

    So what are other people thinking of doing to get them through the 6 hours of dark?
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    So what are other people thinking of doing to get them through the 6 hours of dark?
    I'm curious to hear some ideas as well. Civil twilight is 5:38 am for Moab on that date...and the double shot lasts a little over 5 hours & is a pretty light helmet mounted package. I'm not certain a single spot beam would be sufficient - probably not. Might also have something on the bars to supplement it as needed, but nothing that takes up valuable water bottle space.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    I am curious what people are going to do for lights. I have a few ideas but I have not been able to test them. I am thinking of going with 2 lesser lights on my handlebars, rather than pack around the Hid with its big bulky batteries. If I can find a set up that will burn for a long time, and still provide enough rideable light then I should be set. Of course finding the right set up is the trick.

    So what are other people thinking of doing to get them through the 6 hours of dark?
    I'll probably use the Exposure Enduro light. 8 hours on low beam, and low is way more than enough for all of the climbing. I'll supplement it with a helmet mounted spot that's good for ~2 hours.

    MC

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    I'll probably use the Exposure Enduro light. 8 hours on low beam, and low is way more than enough for all of the climbing. I'll supplement it with a helmet mounted spot that's good for ~2 hours.

    MC
    I have been looking at the Exposure light as well. From all accounts it seems like the ideal light, although I have not read any user reviews, nor actually seen one in person. I am thinking of running 2 of the BLT Ozone 9ine lights (http://www.blt-lights.com/ozone9ine.htm) on my bars, and then possible a mountaineering type headlamp as a back up. The BLT lights look good on paper, but then so do a lot of things. If they work as intended they might be a nice inexpensive alternative to the Exposure.

    Also, on an unrelated note, I am thinking of doing some KT exploration rides in March/April. I will post dates here once I get them pinned down. If anyone is interested let me know. I can be reached through my blog, or at adamlisonbee at gmail dot com
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    Am I the only one who thinks the full moon light will be sufficient to see by for most of the night? I'm not super familar with the course, but the first 30-40 miles or so dirt road, and isn't the start 17 miles of up? I mean, I know there are some technical and downhill bits in there, but I'm thinking that a 5 W LED with 3 hours of burn time should cover that. Right?
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    Full Moon

    Quote Originally Posted by FishMan473
    Am I the only one who thinks the full moon light will be sufficient to see by for most of the night? I'm not super familar with the course, but the first 30-40 miles or so dirt road, and isn't the start 17 miles of up? I mean, I know there are some technical and downhill bits in there, but I'm thinking that a 5 W LED with 3 hours of burn time should cover that. Right?
    I'm with you FishMan about the full moon (edit: cloudcover being a wild card of course). At the VT125 race last year, a midnight start, I did not have to use my main light in the open areas. I primarily used it for fast stuff or on the CT singletrack in deep forest. I don't recall how much moonshine we had.

    alizbee - March 11-12 I'm planning another run at KT pre-riding (edit: starting from CO Loma/Westwater side most likely).

    Later -

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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    I am curious what people are going to do for lights. I have a few ideas but I have not been able to test them. I am thinking of going with 2 lesser lights on my handlebars, rather than pack around the Hid with its big bulky batteries. If I can find a set up that will burn for a long time, and still provide enough rideable light then I should be set. Of course finding the right set up is the trick.

    So what are other people thinking of doing to get them through the 6 hours of dark?
    When I do it in 2007, I'll be using a AAA Powered 7LED Headlamp set as well as a AAA Powered 5LED Forehead light. I'll get about 14 hrs of light that way and between the two, I should have plenty of light!

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    I am curious what people are going to do for lights. I have a few ideas but I have not been able to test them. I am thinking of going with 2 lesser lights on my handlebars, rather than pack around the Hid with its big bulky batteries. If I can find a set up that will burn for a long time, and still provide enough rideable light then I should be set. Of course finding the right set up is the trick.

    So what are other people thinking of doing to get them through the 6 hours of dark?
    Here is my clear as mud thinking so far on lights, may change radically as I have some fun testing out all my assumptions.

    I do not currently have any working lights so I have the opportunity to set up for the KTR (and other future night rides) from scratch. I have decided one ‘good to medium’ quality HID light (one also good enough for future fun/fast group rides) and one ‘long lasting’ back-up/climb light. After some trail time with a back-up/climb light and some pre-riding of the start I may leave the HID home.

    HID
    For my HID light I ordered (and just received today ) a ‘Topeak MoonShine HID’ ($299 internet buy, Ben’s Cycle & Fitness) with the smaller Li battery: 370g total claimed system weight , claimed 2.5 hrs on 7W low, helmet or bar mount. See Topeak web for pictures and full specs. After I fully evaluate the unit I might order a second small sized Li battery (≈250g?, 2.5 more hrs, $90) or the larger Li battery (≈520g? , 4.5h claimed on 7W low). I am not necessarily thinking of hauling a second MoonShine battery on the KTR but might like the extra one for other type rides/events.

    !!See my new Toy!! (Wife not to happy with all this ‘light’ stuff & cost)
    Some Ramblings: Just got back from a quick 40 min trial run around my neighborhood, handlebar mount on my old fully rigid hardtail, did some small and medium washboard bumps at speed to check mounting, some dirt/ice and pavement etc, about 20° F ambient Mount, light and thumb switch all worked very well. Cable connection looks and feels solid. At first I thought the 7W low was just fine for everything I was riding tonight. My initial impression of the difference between 7W &10W was noticeable but did not seem very important, however as I came back down a old potholed pavement descent at around 30+mph I really was using the 10W, much better under this condition than the 7W.
    More Ramblings: Unit kicked in to it’s claimed 30 min reserve right after 40 min of combined 7/10, this time agrees with manual for temp effect on Li batteries and required ‘first charge’ battery training, will see how much it improves after several charges and warmer temps.
    Final Ramble: The light/bulb assembly, connecting cables, battery and battery mount all have the look and feel of top notch quality, both from a manufacturing and an engineering sense (Yes I suffer slightly form being an engineer). The Handlebar mount is very light and seems 100% functional (so far) but it does lock down with an allen bolt (wing style bolt hear we come). So the HB mount lacks the nice quick on/off “clam action w/finger adjust” feature of the more expensive systems. Also the Helmet mount looks ok but the strap is to ‘stretchy’ to be of practical use, can probably be upgraded/replaced fairly easily.


    Backup/Climb
    For my back up/climb light I am seriously looking at the 3 or 5W LED DiNotte lights. They have AA NiMH (you can carry spare set of std AAs or buy a second set of rechargeable NiMH from radio shack) or a proprietary Li battery option.

    DiNotte just emailed me their current price list, here is some of it:

    Some DiNotte Product Comparison Chart Info

    Ultra 3 $169 AA NiMH Helmet 80 Lum 3 Watt 4 / 2 /20 hrs

    Ultra 3 Lithium $269 Li Ion Helmet 80 Lum 3 Watt 16 / 8 / 40 hrs

    Ultra 5 Lithium $299 Li Ion Handlebar 120 Lum 5 Watt 12 / 6 / 40 hrs

    I have read some posts on DiNotte, they sound like the perfect light weight helmet light for ‘fill-in lighting’ and climbing. I like the idea of off the shelf backup batteries but their new Li’s have great run time (at a cost of course)
    Any one have recent experience with DiNotte?
    Last edited by trail717; 02-24-2006 at 10:25 PM.

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    Also, on an unrelated note, I am thinking of doing some KT exploration rides in March/April. I will post dates here once I get them pinned down. If anyone is interested let me know. I can be reached through my blog, or at adamlisonbee at gmail dot com[/QUOTE]



    I to will be in area several times in March/April, one date that is 90% is March 17/18

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    Quote Originally Posted by trail717
    I to will be in area several times in March/April, one date that is 90% is March 17/18
    I am 90% that I will be in the area that weekend as well. However we may be on the White Rim instead of the KT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by trail717
    Also, on an unrelated note, I am thinking of doing some KT exploration rides in March/April. I will post dates here once I get them pinned down. If anyone is interested let me know. I can be reached through my blog, or at adamlisonbee at gmail dot com

    I to will be in area several times in March/April, one date that is 90% is March 17/18
    I'm riding Dewey Bridge to Loma on March 17th and would love company. So far it's just me and my wheels. Plan is to ride through at a decent pace without stopping much.

    Lemme know.

    LW

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    That sounds great!

    Quote Originally Posted by LyndaW
    I'm riding Dewey Bridge to Loma on March 17th and would love company. So far it's just me and my wheels. Plan is to ride through at a decent pace without stopping much.

    Lemme know.

    LW
    Hi Lynda - March 17th is definitely do-able. Like you, I would like to ride at close to race pace.

    Let me know what you think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LyndaW
    I'm riding Dewey Bridge to Loma on March 17th and would love company. So far it's just me and my wheels. Plan is to ride through at a decent pace without stopping much.

    Lemme know.

    LW
    That is a strong "likely" for me. I've been wanting to do back to back epics for a while, so this should give me that opportunity.
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    An option I am considering for lights is to run a Princeton Tec Corona Bike on my bars with the Princeton Tec EoS on my helmet. The Eos runs for 6 hours on 3 AAA batteries, and the Corona 30 Hours on 8 AA's.

    Both of these lights can be bought for less than $80 combined (here is the best price I have found online www.night-gear.com) which makes them an attractive option. As usual though, I am wondering if they will provide enough light...

    I thought I'd throw those out here and see what people thought. I have to admit that the lighting issue for this race continues to keep me up at night. Mainly because there are so many choices for long burning LEDs, and yet there is no real way of seeing them in action. I did manage to take a look at the Eos and Corona headlamps at my local sporting goods store, and they seem adequate, but it was difficult to tell in the only slightly dimmed area of the store.

    Perhaps I should just get one of those 10 million candlepower flashlights and strap it to my bike.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    An option I am considering for lights is to run a Princeton Tec Corona Bike on my bars with the Princeton Tec EoS on my helmet. The Eos runs for 6 hours on 3 AAA batteries, and the Corona 30 Hours on 8 AA's.

    Perhaps I should just get one of those 10 million candlepower flashlights and strap it to my bike.....
    Wow...you've been doing some homework. I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to lighting. How lumens compares to watts or candlepower is a mystery...but it looks like one of them (the EOS I think) has a 1W burn rate. Compared to the doubleshot's burn rate of 10W (2 x 5W LEDs, right Jeff?) it sounds pretty minimal. I've ridden that road up to the top of Porcupine and most any light would suffice for that section, but beyond there is a mystery to me.

    Keep us informed if you test one of them!
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    Princeton tec Corona LED light

    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    An option I am considering for lights is to run a Princeton Tec Corona Bike on my bars with the Princeton Tec EoS on my helmet. The Eos runs for 6 hours on 3 AAA batteries, and the Corona 30 Hours on 8 AA's.

    Both of these lights can be bought for less than $80 combined (here is the best price I have found online www.night-gear.com) which makes them an attractive option. As usual though, I am wondering if they will provide enough light...
    I've been using Princeton Tec Corona on my helmet to complement my HID light and I am very pleased with the performance of this light. It is very light and gives enough light output to ride a fire road. I would not use it for technical singletrack or on very fast sections, since it does not illuminate far enough. You should be OK on climbs with this light, but I would recommend a stronger light for the descents. I am considering this race also, if I decide to go, I am planning to start with the Corona and bring my HID (4 hours of burn time) for the technical/fast downhill sections.

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    I have a NiteRider Blowtorch, and I love that light. The big downfall to it is the humungous battery that takes up a bottle cage. I just do not want to take up a bottle spot with a bulky battery that once the sun rises I am having to lug along. It is true Dave that I have been doing some research on lower power (1-3W) lights. I think I have been doing to much, because I am constantly running through different combinations in my head, pairing up different lights and seeing what they cost, etc... It is enough to drive a man nuts. I have decided "for sure" what I want now at least 4 times.

    A great resource though has been James Sharp's GearReview.com LED shootout. He has photos of beam patterns, a chart with burn times, charge times and costs, and a lot more info. It is a must read for anyone in the LED market.

    I am also with you Dave on the trail conditions beyond Porcupine Rim. I haven't any idea as to what awaits us there.
    Last edited by alizbee; 03-03-2006 at 11:55 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    I think I have been doing to much, because I am constantly running through different combinations in my head, pairing up different lights and seeing what they cost, etc... It is enough to drive a man nuts. I have decided "for sure" what I want now at least 4 times.
    I know what you mean. I too have spent a fair amount of time researching (and testing) different light combos and sometimes I feel like I haven't got anywhere. It's all part of the process, though, and I actually quite enjoy it.

    I'll be there for Koko, but won't spend $$ on a system specific to a ~half night race. I'm gearing my system more towards multi-day races. So what I'm saying is that I'll likely be (whatever I end up with) under-lit compared to y'all. Good ideas being passed around, though.

    Also, you've got an extra period at the end of the link to gear reviews. The link doesn't work.

  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krein
    Also, you've got an extra period at the end of the link to gear reviews. The link doesn't work.
    Thanks. I fixed it.
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  103. #103

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    gear lists

    Hey all, I originally asked the following question in the '95 race results thread (oops). I am wondering if anyone who has ridden the KTR would provide a detailed gear list...

    "hey kokopelli racers,
    i'm wondering about the gear you carry for this race...would anyone share a proven gear list? specifically, do you bother with a water filter?

    i've ridden the kokopelli many times and the grand loop once, but this year may be my first attempt at riding the koko straight through and without any support.

    thanks in advance for any feedback."

    I hope to meet some of you folks in may.

  104. #104
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    KTR pre-ride

    I'm riding Dewey Bridge - Fruita on 3/17and would welcome company. It's a little over 80 miles. Come self supported with lots of food - no bonking or Epicking yourself. I'm planning on the detour to Westwater for a fluid refill. The plan is to ride the first 60 miles at race pace, mile 60 - 70 much faster and finish it off a little faster than that. The last 6 miles are on the road from Loma trailhead back to my hotel in Fruita. I thought I'd get that section dialed as I'll prolly be riding that bit in May too. PM or e mail me before Friday 'cause I'm leaving town and not taking my computer with.

    For those in the know - any guesstimates on how long this is going to take me?

  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyndaW
    I'm riding Dewey Bridge - Fruita on 3/17and would welcome company. It's a little over 80 miles. Come self supported with lots of food - no bonking or Epicking yourself. I'm planning on the detour to Westwater for a fluid refill. The plan is to ride the first 60 miles at race pace, mile 60 - 70 much faster and finish it off a little faster than that. The last 6 miles are on the road from Loma trailhead back to my hotel in Fruita. I thought I'd get that section dialed as I'll prolly be riding that bit in May too. PM or e mail me before Friday 'cause I'm leaving town and not taking my computer with.

    For those in the know - any guesstimates on how long this is going to take me?
    I will be down there on the 18th doing White Rim. I am interested to see if anyone else is planning on riding with Lynda on the 17th. Perhaps we could get a shuttle arranged to get back to the bridge Friday night? How long of a drive is Moab to Dewey? And then Dewey to Fruita?


    Also, if anyone is up for the WR on the 18th let me know, you are welcome to join us.
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  106. #106
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    Holy Moses, I recognize that pacing plan. If you're gonna plan on riding with Lynda, it'll be easy enough for awhile, but you'll need your A-game for the last 3 hours. Especially the last 20 minutes

    That will not be a casual ride by anyones yardstick...
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  107. #107
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    Bonking ... not feelin' well

    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    Holy Moses, I recognize that pacing plan. If you're gonna plan on riding with Lynda, it'll be easy enough for awhile, but you'll need your A-game for the last 3 hours. Especially the last 20 minutes

    That will not be a casual ride by anyones yardstick...
    Yikes! That pace is not for me yet and ss'ing would probably not be compatible with LW's ride. Oh the difficulties of working and training for these epics - I'm losing time. Wasn't it just yesterday that MC made fun of us for thinking about this race 7-1/2 months ahead of time?

    Unfortunately my KT pre-ride plans for this coming weekend might be in jeopardy if the weather stays foul out there but I still plan to go and see what happens. The irony of CO weather - beautiful all season so far and now winter strikes just as spring is in the air.

    Good luck out there and I'm looking forward to your reports. You know; you had dead legs, it sucked out there, there's no way you can do the race, etc. None of this; I felt great, I rode so fast and I'm ready to kick butt stuff

    Ed E

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    Wasn't it just yesterday that MC made fun of us for thinking about this race 7-1/2 months ahead of time?
    For me it's even worse. I am planning for 2007 already. While I'm probably ready to race this year my wife and I are going to be in a wedding in California that weekend. So it is first on my schedule for 2007 with hopefully some preriding this year.
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  109. #109
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    Question about the shuttle -- before or after the race?

    I am considering doing this race, however, I have a question -- will there be a shuttle provided from the finish in Loma back to the start in Moab after the race or before the race? I need to determine whether I should fly to Salt lake City and drive to Moab or would it be better to fly directly to Grand Junction, CO?

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    Peter, it's Trav...You're racing it this year? It's gonna be cuttin it a little close to the Pisgah Race huh? Of course, you're a stud so it won't matter to much for you. I'm planning on it in 07. If you do decide to race it, good luck to you!

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    KTR Safety

    Hey all,

    I am toying with the idea of doing the KTR this year (if not, for sure next year). I'm a girl and I am concerned about safety - not from wild beasts but from wack job nutso men (not the guys in the race, of course). Perhaps I'm paranoid, but there's some crazy mo-fos out there. Anyway, are the women who are racing riding with a male partner (especially during the dark hours)? I know the race is SOLO, but I wondered what, if anything, female riders were doing about safety. I appreciate anyone's thoughts. BTW - I HATE it that I have to be concerned about this!

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    That's a valid concern

    From what I gathered, most of the women will be partnered up with someone.

    There will be exceptions, of course, such as Lynda W.

    You should go through this thread again. I remember seeing some posters who mentioned that they will be doing the KTR with their spouse. Perhaps you might be able to hook up with them.

    You can always bribe a handful of your regular riding partners to ride different sections of it with you.

    I'd offer to ride with you. However, I do plan on making the fastest time that my skills allow. I may be faster than you or you may be faster than me...

    Good luck.

  113. #113

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    Hey, Lynda - I pre-rode Dewey

    Quote Originally Posted by LyndaW
    I'm riding Dewey Bridge - Fruita on 3/17and would welcome company. It's a little over 80 miles. Come self supported with lots of food - no bonking or Epicking yourself. I'm planning on the detour to Westwater for a fluid refill. The plan is to ride the first 60 miles at race pace, mile 60 - 70 much faster and finish it off a little faster than that. The last 6 miles are on the road from Loma trailhead back to my hotel in Fruita. I thought I'd get that section dialed as I'll prolly be riding that bit in May too. PM or e mail me before Friday 'cause I'm leaving town and not taking my computer with.

    For those in the know - any guesstimates on how long this is going to take me?
    last week. It's more or less an unesthetic grind in sandy conditions. Although with the rain that's predicted for this weekend, it might be faster.

    Since I don't have access to a shuttle, I plan on this:

    1) Park at Cisco Boat Launch

    2) Ride east to Rabbit Valley

    3) Go back to Cisco

    This should be around 60-70 miles for me.

    Approximately what time do you think you will be at Cisco?

    Also, if anyone out there wants a pre-ride partner on the 18th and the 19th, let me know.

    I drive a Subura Outback with a roof rack for one bike and I can fit another in the back.

  114. #114
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    Quite Frankly

    Quote Originally Posted by IttyBittyBetty
    Hey all,

    I am toying with the idea of doing the KTR this year (if not, for sure next year). I'm a girl and I am concerned about safety - not from wild beasts but from wack job nutso men (not the guys in the race, of course). Perhaps I'm paranoid, but there's some crazy mo-fos out there. Anyway, are the women who are racing riding with a male partner (especially during the dark hours)? I know the race is SOLO, but I wondered what, if anything, female riders were doing about safety. I appreciate anyone's thoughts. BTW - I HATE it that I have to be concerned about this!
    I think anyone doing this ride solo (or even paired up) needs to remember what they are embarking on. You will be riding alone, unsupported for 142 miles through desert areas that may not provide haven if you run into trouble. There will be stretches where there is no one around for a long time especially at night. There are potential dangers, for some humans probably and sadly being the most prominent, but also wildlife, dehydration, heat stroke, hypothermia, mechanicals, accidents, getting lost. This is a serious undertaking, not a pleasant jaunt around the local park or a well supported and crowded race event at a resort.

    I unexpectedly ran into some pretty nasty dogs on one of my pre-rides out there - anyone who is terrified of dogs may have had problems. I was lucky. But it brought home the fact that I was all alone out there and had to deal with the situation on my own.

    Ittybitty is bringing up a good point for all of us to ponder!

    Ed E

  115. #115
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    I'll be at Dewey 6:30 am and Cisco about 8 - 8:30am.

    If good weather I'll be the girl on a Blue Scalpel.

    Questionable weather I'll be the girl on a black GF Rig.

    Really bad weather doing and out and back from Loma

    Really really bad weather crying in my hotel room

  116. #116
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    Lynda I don't think I can join you. The logistics of trying to get back into Moab Friday night are not working out. I still want to ride Friday, so I think I will do a 35-40 mile out and back from Moab for a total of 70-80 miles. I need to scout that section of the trail anyway....
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  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    last week. It's more or less an unesthetic grind in sandy conditions. Although with the rain that's predicted for this weekend, it might be faster.
    Since I don't have access to a shuttle, I plan on this:
    1) Park at Cisco Boat Launch
    2) Ride east to Rabbit Valley
    3) Go back to Cisco
    This should be around 60-70 miles for me.
    Approximately what time do you think you will be at Cisco?
    Also, if anyone out there wants a pre-ride partner on the 18th and the 19th, let me know.
    I drive a Subura Outback with a roof rack for one bike and I can fit another in the back.
    514Climber , I will arrive in Grand Junction area evening of 16th. Weather permitting I would like to leave my work van at Loma trailhead early Friday morning and shuttle with someone to Cisco (or Dewey) (I can pay for gas).

    I would then ride at my pace (sport level) back to Loma. I plan to drive from Loma trailhead to Moab Friday evening and could shuttle you back to your Subaru.

    Note: alizbee I could also shuttle you back to Moab Friday evening (my van has tons of bike room but only has one passenger seat; a second passenger would have to sit on a folding chair.

    Sat I plan on doing some additional pre ride closer to Moab.

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by prajc
    I am considering doing this race, however, I have a question -- will there be a shuttle provided from the finish in Loma back to the start in Moab after the race or before the race? I need to determine whether I should fly to Salt lake City and drive to Moab or would it be better to fly directly to Grand Junction, CO?
    No official shuttle-- it is not that kind of race. But several participants will be in the same boat as you, myself included. I have no doubt that shuttles will form either closer to the event or at the start/finish areas. There is always the option of riding back Sunday, not as bad as you would think if you ditch out at Dewey and ride the road back to moab...
    Fatter than most.

  119. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soloracer
    There is always the option of riding back Sunday, not as bad as you would think if you ditch out at Dewey and ride the road back to moab...
    That's sick, even for this crowd.

    Or is it?
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  120. #120
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    The snow, it just keeps coming!

    It's the journey as much as it is the actual ride day. Hopefully you all don't mind a diversion from KTR logistics and mindshare.

    The day dawned cold (mid-20's), gray, misty and definitely uninviting for those of us needing to ride. I blew off heading west to Fruita this weekend cause it looked like things would be ugly there too. So here I was, looking out the window at all the snow deposited after 3 straight days of snowfall and trying to figure out what to do.

    I had a plan to hit up some road riding and throw in some trails if they were ok. So I loaded up stomach and car and went to my designated start point only to find that the road I was to ride on was a slushy/icy mess with too many cars on it. So I went looking down lower in elevation and found a spot to start - Platte River Rd. Snow free and few cars.

    It was dreary but I was outside and spinning, all good. As I descended to Deckers, it got drier and drier and remarkably snow free. As much snow as we've had just 20 or so miles to the north, this area had none. Turned right out of Deckers and headed up 126. "Six Mile Climb" is what my roadie friends call the climb I was attempting here. It sucked! Man did it suck! Steep, winding and unending. It started to snow about a third of the way up, hard. And there was a lovely headwind to keep me company. Soon I was coated in snow and a blue pick-up with very nice folks stopped when I was maybe 2/3's up and asked if I wanted a ride - I grunted something to the effect that I was ok and "thanks" dribbled out unintelligibly, I'm sure they didn't understand. I'm sure they didn't understand what I said but I'm also sure they were completely baffled as to what a cyclist was doing on this god-forsaken climb in a snowstorm.

    I finally popped out at the top, somehow. Some cold wet downhill followed then another climb after my legs were nicely chill-stiffened. I got to the CT and had a blast finishing up the ride on virgin snow covered trails.

    Some pics.

    1) Cynical Pinnacle enshrouded
    2) Bustling Foxton
    3) The River
    4) Damn
    5) Lead is Good!
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by edemtbs; 03-12-2006 at 08:13 PM.

  121. #121
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    Enter the woods!

    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    I finally popped out at the top, somehow. Some cold wet downhill followed then another climb after my legs were nicely chill-stiffened. I got to the CT and had a blast finishing up the ride on virgin snow covered trails.
    1) So beautiful!
    2) Single Track
    3) Making More Track
    4) So Fine
    5) Making turns
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  122. #122
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    To the End

    1) Stark
    2) Starker
    3) Turns
    4) Baldy
    5) ........
    Attached Images Attached Images

  123. #123
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    Worried about the wackos, not the dogs

    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    I think anyone doing this ride solo (or even paired up) needs to remember what they are embarking on. You will be riding alone, unsupported for 142 miles through desert areas that may not provide haven if you run into trouble. There will be stretches where there is no one around for a long time especially at night. There are potential dangers, for some humans probably and sadly being the most prominent, but also wildlife, dehydration, heat stroke, hypothermia, mechanicals, accidents, getting lost. This is a serious undertaking, not a pleasant jaunt around the local park or a well supported and crowded race event at a resort.

    I unexpectedly ran into some pretty nasty dogs on one of my pre-rides out there - anyone who is terrified of dogs may have had problems. I was lucky. But it brought home the fact that I was all alone out there and had to deal with the situation on my own.

    Ittybitty is bringing up a good point for all of us to ponder!

    Ed E
    The wildlife, potential heat stroke, dehydration, mechanicals, accidents and (not) getting lost are fun (and difficult) challenges of the race. Wackos are a whole different story. I think my boyfriend and I will ride together, both of us carrying all our stuff (i.e., both riding unsupported).

    Lynda, how was your pre-ride this weekend? Due to all the snow here in Colorado, I rode indoors (not quite as crazy as Ed E).

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    ... and if we just ... Beautiful Pics!

    Man those are nice, must be terrible to have to ride under those conditions!(NOT!)

  125. #125
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    HELLO ALL!!
    JUST A SHOUT TO LET EVERYONE KNOW,MYSELF AND MY
    GIRLFRIEND WILL BE ON THE KOKO TRAIL THIS THURSDAY
    THE 16th.I WILL POST A TRAIL UPDATE UPON OUR RETURN.
    BE SAFE
    T.RAY

  126. #126
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    Great pics! Thanks for sharing.

    For those out there still looking for a light, I just picked up a Cygolite DualCross 300. $150 from REI (with my 20% off coupon). Charged it up last night and played with it a little. It's plenty bright for fireroad riding. Should be plenty bright for most singletrack. Claimed run time is 4 hours on low, 9 hours on high. There is a slight difference between the low and high beam, but not much. I'll be taking it out for some long night rides as soon as the weather warms a bit and let everyone know if the burn times are as claimed by Cygolite. I'll see if I can figure out how to post some pics as well.

  127. #127
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    Does anyone know how long of a drive it is from Moab to the Dewey Bridge via highway 128?

    Also, I don't think I will be in Moab earlier than about 10AM Friday morning. I plan to be on the Koko trail ASAP once I get down there. I will probably be dropped off around the Procupine rim trailhead and ride an out and back from that point. Anyone who wants feel free to join me.

    There is also a group fo 4, maybe 5 of us doing White Rim unsupported on Saturday. We will be leaving at sunrise from the trail head. Feel free to join us there also. Shoot me an email at adamlisonbee @ gmail . com if you need details.
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  128. #128

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    Just make sure you shrink them to a size the server can handle

    Quote Originally Posted by ucme4dk
    Great pics! Thanks for sharing.

    For those out there still looking for a light, I just picked up a Cygolite DualCross 300. $150 from REI (with my 20% off coupon). Charged it up last night and played with it a little. It's plenty bright for fireroad riding. Should be plenty bright for most singletrack. Claimed run time is 4 hours on low, 9 hours on high. There is a slight difference between the low and high beam, but not much. I'll be taking it out for some long night rides as soon as the weather warms a bit and let everyone know if the burn times are as claimed by Cygolite. I'll see if I can figure out how to post some pics as well.
    Pretty much any photo program will let you do that. I use GIMP, and you can DL it for free at www.mozilla.org . It does pretty much anything Photoshop pro will, and it's spyware free!

  129. #129

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    I may be able to help with some logistics here.

    - Dewey Bridge to Moab via 128, around 30 miles plus or minus. Easy riding.

    - If you have a good sized crew looking to shuttle back to Moab from Loma post-ride, talk to Jim at Road Runner Shuttles in Moab, he can send a van to pick you all up. Spread the cost around and it'll probably be about $25 per head. Set it up ahead of time. There's other shuttle companies in Moab that'll do it too, but these guys are by far the easiest to work with.

    - Bikerpelli will be on the trail while you do the race - I wont reveal where unless you want to know, don't want to violate the spirit of the ride. But should someone get in trouble we can probably help out. If you'd like our location you can contact me privately at alex(at)bikerpelli.com.
    Last edited by Alex Hearn; 03-15-2006 at 08:54 AM.

  130. #130
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    Race logisitics

    If you have a good sized crew looking to shuttle back to Moab from Loma post-ride, talk to Jim at Road Runner Shuttles in Moab, he can send a van to pick you all up. Spread the cost around and it'll probably be about $25 per head.
    Thanks, Alex. Great info. Looks like there are several riders in the same sitatution as myself (soloracer, 514Climber), so it should not be a problem to get a group together and arrange a shuttle back to Moab after the race.

    Peter, it's Trav...You're racing it this year? It's gonna be cuttin it a little close to the Pisgah Race huh? Of course, you're a stud so it won't matter to much for you. I'm planning on it in 07. If you do decide to race it, good luck to you!
    Thanks, Travis. My goal is just to finish before it gets dark, I am shooting for 20 hours (about 7 mph average speed), which should be doable. I will have a Princeton Tec Corona LED on my helmet and my NiteRider HID on the handlebars with a spare battery, so that should provide me with enough light (30 hrs with LED and 8 hrs on HID). It is close to Pisgah adventure race, but that one is only 50-60 miles (about 10-12 hours of riding), so I should be recovered from that race in a week.

  131. #131
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    No KTR pre-ride

    Sorry everybody, I won't be out on Koko on Friday. I'm in bed with the flu.

    FYI to those White Rim goers the Shaffer-Potash climb is closed today 'cause there is too much snow on the road and the park doesn't want the road all rutted up. You can go up Long Canyon instead and that will add about 20 miles onto your lap. It snowed again in Moab this morning.

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    Sorry to hear that

    Although there is no good time to catch the flu, the weather is looking worse and worse for this frid, sat, sun.

    Hope you get better soon.

  133. #133
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    That sucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by LyndaW
    Sorry everybody, I won't be out on Koko on Friday. I'm in bed with the flu.

    FYI to those White Rim goers the Shaffer-Potash climb is closed today 'cause there is too much snow on the road and the park doesn't want the road all rutted up. You can go up Long Canyon instead and that will add about 20 miles onto your lap. It snowed again in Moab this morning.
    There's definitely a nasty bug going around. Get better quick! At least you're getting the flu bug out of the way now and not later.

    And yeah, 514 is right, it looks like I may postpone yet another Fruita trip due to weather. Stuck with another weekend of cold Front Range riding instead of warm desert trails. Lovely headwind again today heading up into the Boulder canyons

    Stay well everyone and good riding.

    Ed E

  134. #134
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    I will still be giving the White Rim a shot, and possibly a scouting trip on the first half of the Koko. I am really growing tired of bad weather.

    Get better Lynda. I want to get back down there in April for some more KTR pre riding, I will let you know details.
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  135. #135
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    Pre Ride

    Friday 17th, Just did KoKo trail from Cisco Landing to Rabbit Valley & back, weather was very good (sometimes you just get lucky )

    Stopped at Westwater, drinking water spigot is easy to find and well marked.

    My 2 cents:
    Trail still has a few mud holes, no snow and only one extended ‘mud area’ from earlier snow melt (this area should be dry in a day or so unless major percip, no real problem, just had to clean off build up at bottom of steep hill), some boring and some fun sections. Trail is 'currently' well marked at every major intersection

    However I can see how some 'climbing' sections of this part of the trail could be irritatingly sandy during hotter weather, quite a few of the extended sandy sections will be down-hill and no problems.

    I am experimenting with my new I-pod, never done ride-music before, the Van Halen kicked in on a smooth twisty down hill, what a blast


    Cheers
    Last edited by trail717; 03-17-2006 at 09:29 PM.

  136. #136
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    My Koko scouting trip was derailed. I had planned on trying to ride from Moab to Dewey, but reports from locals was that it is currently unridable. So I didn't bother. White Rim was fantastic though on Saturday
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  137. #137
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    Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    My Koko scouting trip was derailed. I had planned on trying to ride from Moab to Dewey, but reports from locals was that it is currently unridable. So I didn't bother. White Rim was fantastic though on Saturday
    I was curious about how conditions were out there over the weekend.

    I might be headed out this coming weekend (Fri. morning) - trying again, weather forecast looks better. Right now it's snowing like crazy here again.

  138. #138
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    Hello All!!!
    I Rode Fruita Last Thursday,and The Trails Were Awesome,a
    Little Mud Here And There,but Really Fun.i Recommend Not
    Letting The Weather Change Your Mind About Riding.the Ele-
    Ments Could Be The Same At Race Time.i Will Be Out There
    Again This Thur And Friday,will Give Update. T.ray

  139. #139
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    KoKo Trail Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    I was curious about how conditions were out there over the weekend.

    I might be headed out this coming weekend (Fri. morning) - trying again, weather forecast looks better. Right now it's snowing like crazy here again.

    Forget about trying to ride from Slickrock to Dewey any time soon, Saturday I drove the paved road up Castle Valley and over the top back down to Moab, where the KoKo trail (coming up from Slickrock) hits the paved/plowed road there is well over a foot + of snow, it will still take lots of warm sunny days to open up the trails dirt sections at higher elevations. (Snow shoes anyone?)

    However I did ride the lower elevations from Dewey to Rabbit Valley, it was near perfect conditions .

    Enjoy

  140. #140
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    Rideshare from southern California?

    Is there anyone from southern California doing the KTR that would be interested in sharing the drive? We may make a family vacation out of it, but if not I would be making a pretty quick trip - leave on Wed. or Thurs. and drive back on Sun. or Mon. and would love to split the driving and gas costs.

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  141. #141
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    Everyone must be riding!

    No posts in a while.

    Fruita was awesome! Mary's Loop w/ various loops off of it on Fri., Westwater to 128 and back on Sat., and all the trails on 18 Rd. today. I saw just one other rider on Sat. Big windstorm last night. Otherwise pretty uneventful.

    Took some pics on Sat. I tried to edit my old posts to delete some or attach smaller pics figuring it was annoying to always scan through them but no luck - sorry. I guess you can't edit after a certain amount of time goes by. Here are just a few not great pics from Sat.

    And who are "Blandings Hillbillies"?

    1) Markers
    2) Tree
    3) Fence
    4) Windmill w/ La Sals in background (well if I took better pics you'd see the La Sals)
    5) Cisco Boat Landing - plenty of opportunity to filter water along this stretch. The Cisco boat landing and CO river access is very close to the KT.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by edemtbs; 03-26-2006 at 07:22 PM.

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    Nice Report

    The weather looked bad for sunday (the 26th), so I just did some road work in town.

    The weather looks pretty sketchy for next weekend as well - but I'm still going to be there even if I can only ride one day out of the weekend.

    Let me know if you plan on doing more pre-rides. I think it'll be helpful to pace off someone else. An informal hammer session doesn't hurt...

  143. #143
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    Weather was fine today...

    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    The weather looked bad for sunday (the 26th), so I just did some road work in town.

    Let me know if you plan on doing more pre-rides. I think it'll be helpful to pace off someone else. An informal hammer session doesn't hurt...
    Yah, I was a bit worried when that windstorm hit early, early this morning but it calmed down a bit by about 9am and I don't think it rained at all - not that I could tell anyway. I was supposed to ride with one of the OTE guys but he bailed on our proposed route over by Rabbit Valley because of the wind. He went to Lunch Loops area instead, I decided to stick with 18 Rd.

    I was pacing some guy on Frontside today - he's a track/road racer from CS and semi-new to mtb'ing but he was clipping along ok. On the return yesterday I pushed the pace aggressively and it felt good - spun the legs out nicely. Not sure whether you and I would be a match since I am ss'ing only. But I will be doing more pre-rides just cause I love it out there.

    One thing I have to get used to is the heat. I'm usually in the mountains and in cool air. Yesterday was perfect but I could tell the dry air was sucking the water out of me very quickly. I expect that the temps will warm about 10-15 degrees per month before the race.

  144. #144
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    I-pod

    Quote Originally Posted by trail717
    I am experimenting with my new I-pod, never done ride-music before, the Van Halen kicked in on a smooth twisty down hill, what a blast

    Cheers
    Because of your post, I decided to ride with my I-pod on Sat. I usually like to be aware of the sounds around me but I gave it a shot. Pretty surreal!! But I liked it - a lot.

    Frank Zappa - "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"

  145. #145
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    Excellent choice!

    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs

    Frank Zappa - "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"
    I'll have to plug that one in and give it a spin.

  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    Because of your post, I decided to ride with my I-pod on Sat. I usually like to be aware of the sounds around me but I gave it a shot. Pretty surreal!! But I liked it - a lot.

    Frank Zappa - "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"
    Yes I am really liking my old rock classics on long training rides. The contrast between riding across the wide open desert with music (and then with out) for an hour or so is fascinating . My whole thought process and ride focus changes with and then with out the tunes. Should be interesting to see if some tunes help mentally just a little bit late into the KTR hours.

    Also as a side note; just got my Dinotte 3w helmet light, very impressive , light & compact, well made, and a Very Strong Spot, makes a perfect HID handlebar complement, after a little more use I will decide if it is enough for the KTR without my HID. This thing is so small/compact I will probably start carrying it all the time in my camelback as an emergency light for those rides that unexpectedly last till after dark.

  147. #147
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    Looks like I'll be heading up to the Kokopelli trail to do some pre-riding of some sort next weekend (April 15thish). We hope to do the whole trail as a 3 day tour, assuming it's not too snowy/wet at higher elevations by then. Anyone know what conditions are like currently?

    Otherwise we'll do a couple days of recreational riding in Fruita and I'll take a day and start at Cisco or the Dewey Bridge and ride to the end of the trail. If anyone is intrested in joining us, PM me. Can anyone recommend good camping locations in Fruita?
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    Wow

    5 and a half weeks out, and the numbers of people committing to race are stacking up. I've heard from people in Arid-Zona, Alaska, California, Nevada, Minnesota, New York, Canada, dozens from Colorado and Utah, plus a random smattering from Michigan, Iowa, Nebraska, and North Carolina. I thought y'all might like to know the latest...

    Significant precip the last few weeks means the course is in surprisingly good shape. Still too much snow to ride in the La Sals, but I suspect that a solid 110+ miles of the 142-mile course are rideable for those lucky enough to live nearby.

    Working on pre-race meeting stuff right now--I'll post details when they're finalized.

    MC

  149. #149
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    Camping

    Quote Originally Posted by FishMan473
    Looks like I'll be heading up to the Kokopelli trail to do some pre-riding of some sort next weekend (April 15thish). We hope to do the whole trail as a 3 day tour, assuming it's not too snowy/wet at higher elevations by then. Anyone know what conditions are like currently?

    Otherwise we'll do a couple days of recreational riding in Fruita and I'll take a day and start at Cisco or the Dewey Bridge and ride to the end of the trail. If anyone is intrested in joining us, PM me. Can anyone recommend good camping locations in Fruita?
    There is free camping on 18 Road just outside of Fruita and they have installed a couple of bathrooms nearby the camping which is nice. This area at this time of year can fill up quickly (1st come, 1st serve I believe) on the weekends.

    There is also camping at Highline Lake State Park that is off of the Loma exit which is convenient. I believe you may have to pay a small fee there. There are more amenities at that site. It is the venue for the FFTF 18 Hours race.

    http://parks.state.co.us/default.asp...68&action=park

    I may also be out that way next weekend. I've pretty much completed any exploring east of 128 and will hopefully tack on some miles west of there.

    Ed E

  150. #150
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    New question here.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    5 and a half weeks out, and the numbers of people committing to race are stacking up. I've heard from people in Arid-Zona, Alaska, California, Nevada, Minnesota, New York, Canada, dozens from Colorado and Utah, plus a random smattering from Michigan, Iowa, Nebraska, and North Carolina. I thought y'all might like to know the latest...

    MC
    MC - I might have missed it, about how many people showed up at the start last year?

    Ed E

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Hearn
    Bikerpelli will be on the trail while you do the race - I wont reveal where unless you want to know, don't want to violate the spirit of the ride. But should someone get in trouble we can probably help out. If you'd like our location you can contact me privately at alex(at)bikerpelli.com.
    Just wanted to point out that anyone is free to accept assistance along the way. Also wanted to point out that that act will disqualify you from the race. Self-support means no outside assistance, period.

    MC

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    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    MC - I might have missed it, about how many people showed up at the start last year?

    Ed E
    I think there were ~15. I'd be surprised if there were less than 40 this year.

    MC

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    New question here.

    Just curious and I don't think I saw much posted on this topic.

    I've had it for years and I'm planning on carrying a PuR Katadyn water filter with me. It works quite well and pumps fairly quickly but is a little bulky and has some weight to it.

    http://www.purwaterfilter.com/purhikpursys.html

    What are the rest of you planning to carry for water purification purposes?

    Ed E

  154. #154
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    Weather?

    Is this a "rain or shine" deal or if the trails are bad would it be postponed? Just wondering if I should give up all hope for 2006 since I can't make it that weekend. Fitnesswise I'm ready. It sounds like so much fun.
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  155. #155
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    Self-support

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Just wanted to point out that anyone is free to accept assistance along the way. Also wanted to point out that that act will disqualify you from the race.
    Mike,

    If I understand correctly, this is different from the race rules for the GDR. The GDR rules state: "Prearranged outside support is not allowed." This means that in the GDR you can, for example, take food from random people who happen to be on the route, but you cannot arrange for people/supplies to be on the route. (As a side point, it's still not in the spirit of the GDR to rely on random people being out there, and of course, if you do you'll pay for it).

    For the KTR it is not allowed even to take water/food from random people. I can see good reason for not allowing this type of support in this race.

    However, I think your use of the term "self-support" as you did here:

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Self-support means no outside assistance, period.
    is confusing, since GDR/GL/AZT are also called "self-support", yet non-prearranged random luck is allowed.

    Thoughts?

    Scott

  156. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    What are the rest of you planning to carry for water purification purposes?
    Last year, after a great deal of discussion I belive it was decided that a filter such as your was optimal, with some purification tablets as back up in case the pump clogs. Others decided to go just with tablets to save weight.
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  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krein
    For the KTR it is not allowed even to take water/food from random people. I can see good reason for not allowing this type of support in this race.

    However, I think your use of the term "self-support" as you did here:

    is confusing, since GDR/GL/AZT are also called "self-support", yet non-prearranged random luck is allowed. Thoughts? Scott
    Scott-

    Good point, and good question. The Kokopelli is so close (in a relative sense) to many other busy roads and trails that it's possible and downright likely that people could bump into other riders while racing. To take it one step further, it'd be very easy for someone to "arrange" for a friend to be out riding on the trail, at the same time, and to just happen to have some extra food, water, gatorade, batteries, etc... to give away. If you're in a life-and-death situation (not just bonking) you can accept outside assistance at the cost of a DQ from the race. If it's truly life-and-death, you probably won't care much about the race at that point anyway.

    Because it's only 142 miles, it's easy to carry all the food and water that you need for the entire trail. Hard to believe? The last two years I've carried 100% of my food/water/clothing/light from start to finish. Part of the strategy of the race is to figure out how best to carry the gear (and, of course, what to carry) and food, and which gear and food.

    Make sense?

    Lemme know.

    MC

  158. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Scott-
    Make sense?

    Lemme know.

    MC
    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by mikesee
    Just wanted to point out that anyone is free to accept assistance along the way. Also wanted to point out that that act will disqualify you from the race.


    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

    Hi Mike -

    So by this definition, even asking for directions could be interpreted as assistence along the way. The ol "hey, do you know if the trail goes that way or this way...." can be reason for disqualification?

    I have to say everytime I get interested in this race I think of the poor soul who got disqualified last year for making a wrong turn.

    Matt
    Last edited by Timo; 04-05-2006 at 02:35 PM.

  159. #159
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    Are we picking nits today? What about drafting and pacelining with other races? This is just good racing strategy to me. I assume it's only OK if it's other racers but not random bikers, motorcyles or trucks.
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  160. #160
    Scott in Tucson
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    The Kokopelli is so close (in a relative sense) to many other busy roads and trails that it's possible and downright likely that people could bump into other riders while racing.

    Make sense?
    Yep, good call for this race, I think. But I'm still bothered by the terminology of "self-support." Your sentence defined it as no outside support, period. But we throw that term around for other races that have slightly different rules.

    So it's not really the case that self-support means no outside support (period). That's just the case for the KTR.

    Scott

  161. #161
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    Good job! Filter - thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by FishMan473
    Last year, after a great deal of discussion I belive it was decided that a filter such as your was optimal, with some purification tablets as back up in case the pump clogs. Others decided to go just with tablets to save weight.
    Good input - thanks.

    Yeah - I was thinking about the tablets option but the taste, the need to wait while it purifies and in my mind slightly higher risk were all issues dissuading me from using them. I'm used to the filter, it works well and fast so I'll stick with that for now despite the added weight - I'm used to carrying too much weight anyway

    While I have my trusty Camelback , I'm waiting for a Wingnut 3.0 to see how it packs up for long rides including the filter.

    Ed E

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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pivvay
    Is this a "rain or shine" deal or if the trails are bad would it be postponed?
    Blasphemy!!


  163. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    Blasphemy!!

    Sorry I am just (selfishly) looking for anyway to compete this year. I did 180 miles in 48 hours, half on the singlespeed, this past weekend and I'm bummed that I can't participate despite physically being ready.
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  164. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pivvay
    Sorry I am just (selfishly) looking for anyway to compete this year. I did 180 miles in 48 hours, half on the singlespeed, this past weekend and I'm bummed that I can't participate despite physically being ready.
    No worries Pivvay, I understand where you're coming from. But whatever is keeping you away HAS to be worth it! Right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timo
    So by this definition, even asking for directions could be interpreted as assistence along the way. The ol "hey, do you know if the trail goes that way or this way...." can be reason for disqualification?
    I hadn't thought of it that way at all. I don't see why asking directions should be verboten, unless the person you're asking is a friend that was asked (in advance) to go wait at that spot to let you know where to turn. Extremely unlikely, of course, but it's also happenned many times before and will happen again. How would you feel if you made a wrong turn, rode a few miles, realized your mistake, backtracked, and as you got to the right trail, saw a racer pull up and meet some friends who pointed the right way for him? Would you feel cheated? I would.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timo
    I have to say everytime I get interested in this race I think of the poor soul who got disqualified last year for making a wrong turn. Matt
    So lemme get this straight: if you don't ride the whole course, you should still be considered a finisher? ??

    That "poor soul" realized he'd made a mistake and he took responsibility for it. He didn't ask for special treatment and he didn't whine about it. He basically said: "I missed a turn--my mistake--I'll be back next year to make it right". Why are you fretting about it?

    MC
    Last edited by mikesee; 04-05-2006 at 07:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    let me get this straight: if you don't ride the whole course, you should still be considered a finisher? ??

    That "poor soul" realized he'd made a mistake and he took responsibility for it. He didn't ask for special treatment and he didn't whine about it. He basically said: "My mistake--I'll be back next year to make it right". Why are you fretting about it?

    MC
    If my observation got you upset, then my apologies. But my point is that the rules perhaps seem a little cryptic (and evolving).

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    Quote Originally Posted by FishMan473
    Are we picking nits today? What about drafting and pacelining with other races? This is just good racing strategy to me. I assume it's only OK if it's other racers but not random bikers, motorcyles or trucks.
    This has been brought up many times before, but because the fields have always been so small it was a non-issue: drafting was frowned upon but not forbidden. This year the number of racers is likely to triple or even quadruple, meaning it's time to formally address drafting.

    For the KTR, as well as the GLR and the GDR, drafting is not allowed. To be clear: no drafting of any riders, racers, vehicles, farm animals, wild animals, ATV's, etc...

    Many out there are reading this and saying "Thank Jehovah--it's already becoming a circus, let's keep a little of the old flavor in there". Others are reading this and thinking "What the h*ll? Why can't I draft--it's a RACE, right?".

    For a little insight as to "why" drafting is not allowed, read on.

    The KTR was originally thought up and brought into existence to answer a simple question: How fast can one ride the trail from Moab back to Loma? The emphasis was always on speed, but never on taking shortcuts (there are a lot of them out there) or on making it easier on one's self. We wanted the route to be identical from year to year so that we could gauge our current efforts against past efforts, to see if we'd gotten faster, slower, smarter, etc... Not a new idea by any means.

    Also, in the early years (late '90's for me) the event was always a solo time trial, where a mostly willing spouse would be coerced into dumping you, alone, in the Slickrock parking lot, and it was up to you, alone, to get to Loma where they'd be waiting to pick you up.

    In the past few years all three races have gotten very popular and there has been increasing pressure to change the rules, the format, the dates, the direction of travel, etc... Some suggestions have been meritorious. Others have not. The current set of rules has slowly evolved to it's current state based on rider/racer feedback, and also based on many peer-driven conversations and emails in the off-season. That process has produced some great rule changes and adaptations, and it will continue that way.

    Bottom line? We want these races to remain "pure" in that they are solo efforts where one is gauging one's fitness, gear selection, and mental preparedness against a set course as well as against other racers. The KTR route doesn't change from year to year, so it's possible to inspect it, train on it, and memorize it to your heart's content. We are NOT trying to be the "fun police"--we have no problem with people riding together, conversing, helping each other to pass the miles, etc... That's what's so great about these races--the camaraderie that develops between like-minded individuals.

    Looking forward to the responses.

    MC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timo
    If my observation got you upset, then my apologies. But my point is that the rules perhaps seem a little cryptic (and evolving).
    Not upset--no need for apology.

    In the past there were few questions about these kinds of things--there was a sort of 'gentlemens agreement' (for lack of a better descriptor) about what was right and what was unacceptable. Anything that was perceived as an "unfair advantage" was generally agreed to be forbidden (drafting was one, on-course assistance was another). Now that this sort of racing is hitting the mainstream and bringing racers from many different backgrounds with many different interpretations of 'acceptable' and 'support', I'm doing my best to clarify the rules and keep them fair for all involved. I'm also doing it in my spare time, which partially explains why I'm a little behind.

    Having the website has helped tremendously (to keep all the rules "out there" in one place) but still--there will always be questions and differing opinions on how/what/why.

    Clear?

    MC

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    . I'm also doing it in my spare time, which partially explains why I'm a little behind.
    Clear?

    MC
    Thanks Mike. Point well taken too regarding the spare time. I think, at least for me and perhaps some others here, it is easy to forget that.

    Hope to see you there.

    Matt

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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Many out there are reading this and saying "Thank Jehovah--it's already becoming a circus, let's keep a little of the old flavor in there".

    The KTR was originally thought up and brought into existence to answer a simple question: How fast can one ride the trail from Moab back to Loma?

    Looking forward to the responses.

    MC
    If I may say, you have the patience of Job.

    Point A ====> Point B, as fast as you can, without assistance, on your honor.

    Ed E
    Last edited by edemtbs; 04-05-2006 at 09:23 PM. Reason: where is that damn 'r'?

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    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    Point A ====> Point B, as fast as you can, without assistance, on you honor. Ed E
    That about sums it up.

    MC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krein
    Yep, good call for this race, I think. But I'm still bothered by the terminology of "self-support." Your sentence defined it as no outside support, period. But we throw that term around for other races that have slightly different rules.

    So it's not really the case that self-support means no outside support (period). That's just the case for the KTR.

    Scott
    Scott-

    Agreed that it's thrown around frequently and rarely means the same thing. I'm open to suggestions on better ways to word it.

    Ideas? If so, email 'em to me.

    Thanks,

    MC

  173. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    For the KTR, as well as the GLR and the GDR, drafting is not allowed. To be clear: no drafting of any riders, racers, vehicles, farm animals, wild animals, ATV's, etc...

    Many out there are reading this and saying "Thank Jehovah--it's already becoming a circus, let's keep a little of the old flavor in there". Others are reading this and thinking "What the h*ll? Why can't I draft--it's a RACE, right?".
    For some reason I'm reminded of the scene in the Island, "Watch your proximity!"

    Looks like I'm part of the "others" and not the many. With expectations for at least 40 at the start line, drafting is going to happen. It'll happen at the start, and it will happen mid-race...what to do if you come up on a rider in a singletrack section? What to do if towards the end (legs willing) 2 or 3 riders are vying for top spots? Are these riders forced into gonzo unsafe aggresive passing, where they start from 50 feet back and a full sprint, only to blow up after the pass?

    While I can understand the desire to compare current times to previous efforts, it seems that sticking to that mantra is not consistent with the growth of the event. A 40+ deep mass start event is anything but a time trial. Maybe it'll turn out that 142 miles and those initial climbs are all it takes to string out the group. But when riders invariably end up together its going to lead to some (differing) judgement calls, especially if its at the pointy end of the group.
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  174. #174
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    Perhaps I'm thinking too simply but...

    Why not just go out and ride? Bring the stuff you need and fend for yourself. What's so difficult in understanding such a simple concept?

    If you feel the need to cheat or receive aid for a race that offers no prizes of any sort besides recognition in a small niche community for succeeding then perhaps you should focus on more sponsored races.

    It seems to me this is becoming way more complex than necessary, but then again, last year I just came to try and finish it and used the motivation as a race to struggle harder and longer than I normally would during one single ride.

  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    Why not just go out and ride? Bring the stuff you need and fend for yourself. What's so difficult in understanding such a simple concept?
    Sure, simple concept. That's called training
    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    If you feel the need to cheat or receive aid
    I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't mean that to come out that harsh. Cheating? Aid? Nothing of the sort. In a mass start "race", incidental drafting is going to happen regardless of the rules. For example, the race finishes with a bunch of singletrack - does that mean there can be no passing the last 10 miles in fear of being labeled a drafter/cheater/aid-seeker?
    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    It seems to me this is becoming way more complex than necessary
    Simple case of growing pains, which can be complex. Just ask any parent.
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  176. #176
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    The post was not a response to only you.

    I just noticed it getting more and more complex over time re: all the rules for what seems to me to be a very simple idea of a 'solo race' Were I paying money or racing for prizes I would expect more rules, and for them to be enforced. But this race will not have people stationed to make sure people are not, for example, taking short cuts(and all the other topics that have been ?'d) thus it's on an honor system. Perhaps I should unsubscribe so I stop receiving the emails

    The race starts out climbing, and climbing for a while. I admit to not knowing anything about racing(I ride a single speed for fun and just enjoy riding for a very long time) but it seems like it would be difficult to draft in the dark climbing up a dirt road.

    Last year, and I realize many more are planning on racing this year. I saw only MikeC on and off for a few hours shortly after day light, then Gary on and off for most the day but I did not see one other person besides some 4 wheelers and dirt bikers for the vast majority of my time spent on the trail.

  177. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    The post was not a response to only you.

    I just noticed it getting more and more complex over time re: all the rules for what seems to me to be a very simple idea of a 'solo race' Were I paying money or racing for prizes I would expect more rules, and for them to be enforced. But this race will not have people stationed to make sure people are not, for example, taking short cuts(and all the other topics that have been ?'d) thus it's on an honor system. Perhaps I should unsubscribe so I stop receiving the emails

    The race starts out climbing, and climbing for a while. I admit to not knowing anything about racing(I ride a single speed for fun and just enjoy riding for a very long time) but it seems like it would be difficult to draft in the dark climbing up a dirt road.

    Last year, and I realize many more are planning on racing this year. I saw only MikeC on and off for a few hours shortly after day light, then Gary on and off for most the day but I did not see one other person besides some 4 wheelers and dirt bikers for the vast majority of my time spent on the trail.
    I put on a paved 11 mile long 3300 foot hill climb and mass start the riders. I don't care about drafting etc. It is pretty amazing to see how 25 plus riders spread out so quickly. I can't believe it would be much of a problem in such a long off road race unless people decided to work as a team. Usually the cream rises to the top.

    I sure wish I had the level of fitness and the time to participate in this event. It sounds fantastic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    Looks like I'm part of the "others" and not the many. With expectations for at least 40 at the start line, drafting is going to happen. It'll happen at the start, and it will happen mid-race...
    The first 10+ miles of the race are primarily climbing on graded dirt road. People will spread out very quickly in the first half mile. After the initial mile, there should be no difficulty whatsover in riding one's own pace without sitting on a wheel. 90% of the course (maybe more) it's possible to ride side-by-side, and in quite a few places you could easily and safely ride 3-4 abreast.


    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    what to do if you come up on a rider in a singletrack section? What to do if towards the end (legs willing) 2 or 3 riders are vying for top spots? Are these riders forced into gonzo unsafe aggresive passing, where they start from 50 feet back and a full sprint, only to blow up after the pass?
    Singletrack sections are few and far between on this course, with most of them coming near the end. And sitting on someone's wheel to get the benefit of a draft on these sketchy, technical, on-and-off the bike stretches (at 3mph) is kinda funny to consider. If you only know how to pass someone by coming at a sprint from 50 feet back and then blowing up afterwards, well, I'm not sure it's gonna matter. Thankfully, people in these events are typically not self-absorbed or inconsiderate enough to have forgotten the old "On your left, please". Perhaps the hyper competitive 24 hour crowd has already rubbed off on you? Dave? I hope not--you usually come off as pretty level headed and not at all self-absorbed.


    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    While I can understand the desire to compare current times to previous efforts, it seems that sticking to that mantra is not consistent with the growth of the event. A 40+ deep mass start event is anything but a time trial. Maybe it'll turn out that 142 miles and those initial climbs are all it takes to string out the group. But when riders invariably end up together its going to lead to some (differing) judgement calls, especially if its at the pointy end of the group.
    I see your point, but I don't agree. Perhaps you haven't been on all of the course? After the initial mile it'll be way strung out. After the initial climb into the La Sals you might have to look for someone to ride with. It's so wide open that drafting is easy to avoid. Knowing that it's verboten makes it even easier. Combine both of those and the only reason that anyone will have to sit on someone else's wheel throughout the race will be sheer laziness or disrespect.

    MC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    Perhaps I'm thinking too simply but...

    Why not just go out and ride? Bring the stuff you need and fend for yourself. What's so difficult in understanding such a simple concept?

    If you feel the need to cheat or receive aid for a race that offers no prizes of any sort besides recognition in a small niche community for succeeding then perhaps you should focus on more sponsored races.

    It seems to me this is becoming way more complex than necessary, but then again, last year I just came to try and finish it and used the motivation as a race to struggle harder and longer than I normally would during one single ride.
    Sean-

    Agreed on all. I hate that I'm having to create rules on top of rules for such a simple concept. I know that it's part of the 'growth' of the sport, but at the same time I don't think it should need to be so difficult. Why do we humans feel the need to change things that we don't yet understand? I guess the answer is that we're generally self-serving, needing to mold the world to our needs instead of vice versa.

    In any case, what you wrote above sums it up pretty well.

    MC

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    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    Cheating? Aid? Nothing of the sort. In a mass start "race", incidental drafting is going to happen regardless of the rules.
    Well, if the rules say that you can't do something, and you (speaking generally--not pointing a finger at you) do it anyway, that's cheating. The rules were very clear last year and still people felt the need to cheat by placing drops on the course, or by dropping gear along the way to be picked up later. I don't understand why it happens, I can only tell you that it does. The parties involved last year were politely asked to not come back.


    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    For example, the race finishes with a bunch of singletrack - does that mean there can be no passing the last 10 miles in fear of being labeled a drafter/cheater/aid-seeker?
    Actually, while there are significant stretches of singletrack in the last 20 miles, there are also several doubletracks laced through there, and the last ~three miles are exclusively doubletrack or wide, graded dirt road.

    I realize that you're arguing the principal of the thing and I respect that. Would you consider stepping back and looking at it from a different perspective? Perhaps (just one idea) take the perspective that there are about 100 people around the world that even know about this race, fewer who care about it, and once the race is over we'll all just go back to living our day-to-day lives. Or, as a famous dead guy once put it: The world will little remember what was done here today.

    Thanks,

    MC

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Singletrack sections are few and far between on this course, with most of them coming near the end. And sitting on someone's wheel to get the benefit of a draft on these sketchy, technical, on-and-off the bike stretches (at 3mph) is kinda funny to consider. If you only know how to pass someone by coming at a sprint from 50 feet back and then blowing up afterwards, well, I'm not sure it's gonna matter. Thankfully, people in these events are typically not self-absorbed or inconsiderate enough to have forgotten the old "On your left, please". Perhaps the hyper competitive 24 hour crowd has already rubbed off on you? Dave? I hope not--you usually come off as pretty level headed and not at all self-absorbed.
    Thanks for the clarifications...the only part of the course I've seen is some of the trails near Fruita and Sand Flats road. It's largely a black hole in my mind. So really, I'm trying to understand the rules and their implications. You asked for comments, right?

    My passing comment was misunderstood...it was just a hypothetical situation - how one might go about passing without being DQd. IME, before passing someone, you are on their wheel. That ain't allowed, so I'm just trying to understand how it might go down. It seems like a paradox. Given your course description, it sounds like a non-issue.

    I dislike riding wheels and its probably one of my weak points in NORBA events. Of course I'm competetive, but no more self-absorbed than the rider next to me


    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    I see your point, but I don't agree. Perhaps you haven't been on all of the course? After the initial mile it'll be way strung out. After the initial climb into the La Sals you might have to look for someone to ride with. It's so wide open that drafting is easy to avoid.
    Fair enough. I'll be riding the course the last weekend of the month, so it'll be crystal clear. All I'm trying to do here is understand...I don't want to be that guy who is asked not to come back because race dynamics had me on somebody's wheel for 30 seconds.
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  182. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    After the initial climb into the La Sals you might have to look for someone to ride with. It's so wide open that drafting is easy to avoid. Knowing that it's verboten makes it even easier. Combine both of those and the only reason that anyone will have to sit on someone else's wheel throughout the race will be sheer laziness or disrespect.

    MC
    Well there goes my strategy of drafting off of you for 141.95 miles and then sprinting past you for the win.

    I guess the best way to think of it is as a personal solo challenge which 40ish people just so happen to start doing at the same time. In that context, no drafting makes sense. Still, it will probably take some active effort on my part (and perhaps on the part of others) to not draft other riders. With lots of road miles under my belt, it's just habit.
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  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    I realize that you're arguing the principal of the thing and I respect that. Would you consider stepping back and looking at it from a different perspective? Perhaps (just one idea) take the perspective that there are about 100 people around the world that even know about this race, fewer who care about it, and once the race is over we'll all just go back to living our day-to-day lives. Or, as a famous dead guy once put it: The world will little remember what was done here today.

    Thanks,

    MC
    That famous guy & I have very differing POVs. As a not as famous guy recently said, "anything worth doing is worth over-doing." Rather fitting for the ultra crowd methinks.

    The world may not remember any of what transpires, but those present will remember for a lifetime
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  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by FishMan473
    Well there goes my strategy of drafting off of you for 141.95 miles and then sprinting past you for the win.

    I guess the best way to think of it is as a personal solo challenge which 40ish people just so happen to start doing at the same time. In that context, no drafting makes sense. Still, it will probably take some active effort on my part (and perhaps on the part of others) to not draft other riders. With lots of road miles under my belt, it's just habit.
    Bah, don't you all know we're going to have a strong tailwind the entire way making drafting a moot point? Quit worrying about it.

    You may kick me (lightly) or deprive me of my beer at the finish if I have just cursed us to perpetual headwinds during the ride :-)

    P.S - but the tequila is still mine!

  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    That famous guy & I have very differing POVs. As a not as famous guy recently said, "anything worth doing is worth over-doing." Rather fitting for the ultra crowd methinks.
    Sure, overdo the distance and the speed over that distance, then overdo the ice cream consumption in the days following. Just do it it all without sucking wheel and everyone's happy.

    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    The world may not remember any of what transpires, but those present will remember for a lifetime
    That's as it should be. An epic race put on by racers, for racers, through a visually stunning landscape, with little thought to what 'everyone else' thinks. 'Nuff said.

    MC

  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    Thanks for the clarifications...the only part of the course I've seen is some of the trails near Fruita and Sand Flats road. It's largely a black hole in my mind. So really, I'm trying to understand the rules and their implications. You asked for comments, right?
    I did ask for comments, and I appreciate the thought you've put into yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    My passing comment was misunderstood...it was just a hypothetical situation - how one might go about passing without being DQd. IME, before passing someone, you are on their wheel. That ain't allowed, so I'm just trying to understand how it might go down. It seems like a paradox. Given your course description, it sounds like a non-issue.
    I don't think I misunderstood, but I may have responded in a way that confused you. I'm good at that... The nature of the course makes it mostly a non-issue. If you're coming up on someone and it's obvious you're going to overtake them, call out your intentions and they'll be respected. If you're traveling at roughly the same speed, and happen to be doing so on one of the few miles of singletrack, do so at a reasonable distance from the other racer.

    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    Fair enough. I'll be riding the course the last weekend of the month, so it'll be crystal clear. All I'm trying to do here is understand...I don't want to be that guy who is asked not to come back because race dynamics had me on somebody's wheel for 30 seconds.
    I know you just want to understand, and I'm glad that you asked. Hope that my answers came across as measured as your questions.

    MC

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    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    You may kick me (lightly) or deprive me of my beer at the finish if I have just cursed us to perpetual headwinds during the ride :-)
    You said it!

  188. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    I know you just want to understand, and I'm glad that you asked. Hope that my answers came across as measured as your questions.

    MC
    Thanks Mike, its all clear now and sounds reasonable.

    This is my first foray into the self-supported thing...these events are so attractive because they emobody everything that got me into MTBing in the first place way back when.
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  189. #189
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    Perhaps I'm thinking too simply but...

    It seems to me this is becoming way more complex than necessary, but then again, last year I just came to try and finish it and used the motivation as a race to struggle harder and longer than I normally would during one single ride.
    You and I both must be simpleminded. Can I draft off of you?

    Ed E

  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    You may kick me (lightly) or deprive me of my beer at the finish if I have just cursed us to perpetual headwinds during the ride :-)
    !
    Just remember only bottle beer is acceptable........


    Because no DRAFTS allowed!


  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timo
    Just remember only bottle beer is acceptable........


    Because no DRAFTS allowed!

    Ha!! Oh you're good!!

  192. #192
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    I would guess that an event such as this will break into 2 groups. Those who are there to race, and those who are there to ride. I'd also guess that there will be some overlap between the two.

    One of the things that is attractive about this race to me is the "primitive" nature of it. I will be there to race, initially, although I expect that at some point I will go into survival mode and the delusions of granduear about edging someone at the line for a glorius and unexpected victory will dissovle into very real thoughts about just what the h*** I got myself in to

    Mike, thanks for your detailed replys to the questions and concerns people have. I am looking forward to this race, more so than any I have done. I can't really put a finger on it as to why. Something aout the terrain, the solo effort, and the prospect of edging out someone at the line for a ....ah crap! There I go again!

    Dave, I may be able to sneak down there for some recon with you. I will let you know.
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  193. #193
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    Visualization...

    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    I will be there to race, initially, although I expect that at some point I will go into survival mode and the delusions of grandeur about edging someone at the line for a glorious and unexpected victory will dissolve into very real thoughts about just what the h*** I got myself in to
    Visualization is a good thing, I bet you end up edging someone at the line for a glorious and unexpected victory

    Me, ride to start, race to finish...and hopefully my visions aren't hallucinations.

    Good luck -

    Ed E

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Not upset--no need for apology.

    In the past there were few questions about these kinds of things--there was a sort of 'gentlemens agreement' (for lack of a better descriptor) about what was right and what was unacceptable. Anything that was perceived as an "unfair advantage" was generally agreed to be forbidden (drafting was one, on-course assistance was another). Now that this sort of racing is hitting the mainstream and bringing racers from many different backgrounds with many different interpretations of 'acceptable' and 'support', I'm doing my best to clarify the rules and keep them fair for all involved. I'm also doing it in my spare time, which partially explains why I'm a little behind.

    Having the website has helped tremendously (to keep all the rules "out there" in one place) but still--there will always be questions and differing opinions on how/what/why.

    Clear?

    MC

    So, I assume that "drafting" in another racer's light is also forbidden? I hate to even ask - but the subject hasn't been addressed.

    I understand that bogarting another rider's light because you were too lazy or lacked the foresight to bring adequate lighting for yourself is wrong, but what about a group riding side-by-side who are able to conserve batteries by not running their lights full-on? Does this go against the spirit of self-supportedness?

    I hate to be nitpicky and I plan on bringing enough light/water/food/clothing for myself (probably too much) but if I'm riding with a group (not drafting :-)) it seems silly to waste light - or should I distance myself from the group?

  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoCoasting
    So, I assume that "drafting" in another racer's light is also forbidden? I hate to even ask - but the subject hasn't been addressed.

    I understand that bogarting another rider's light because you were too lazy or lacked the foresight to bring adequate lighting for yourself is wrong, but what about a group riding side-by-side who are able to conserve batteries by not running their lights full-on? Does this go against the spirit of self-supportedness?

    I hate to be nitpicky and I plan on bringing enough light/water/food/clothing for myself (probably too much) but if I'm riding with a group (not drafting :-)) it seems silly to waste light - or should I distance myself from the group?
    If a group happens to be riding together on one of the sections that is wide enough to be able to 'share light', then that's fine. The vagaries of the race route and the nature of off-road riding will punish those that don't bring enough light--I don't see any point in 'legislating' against it. Might as well legislate against using the full moon!

    The only issue I'd have with this would be if two riders showed up and planned to ride with just one light between them. That could turn into a safety issue pretty quick. People, please bring enough light to get through on your own. The ass you save could be your own.

    MC

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    Ouch!

    Today hurt.

    Good night all.

    Ed E

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    [snip]The vagaries of the race route and the nature of off-road riding will punish those that don't bring enough light--I don't see any point in 'legislating' against it. Might as well legislate against using the full moon!

    [snip]

    People, please bring enough light to get through on your own. The ass you save could be your own.

    MC
    I admit, I'm not too terribly familary with this course (though I hope that will change this weekend), but I'd like to think I'm familiar with navigating by moonlight. On the night of a full moon is lighting really going to be a critical issues? It will be necessary to have lights for downhills and perhaps shadowy sections I'm sure, but It appears that the first 50-60 miles of these will all be on dirt roads or double track. So I guess I don't understand why I would be punished for not having enough light if the moon is out?

    I am planning to bring a single 12W equivalent light with about 3.5 hours worth of batteries and a tiny single LED light to use when my main light is off so that the reflective trail makers will stand out. Am I seriously underestimating the power of darkness?
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    Music as Diversion

    Quote Originally Posted by trail717
    Yes I am really liking my old rock classics on long training rides. The contrast between riding across the wide open desert with music (and then with out) for an hour or so is fascinating . My whole thought process and ‘ride focus’ changes with and then with out the tunes. Should be interesting to see if some tunes help mentally just a little bit late into the KTR hours.
    I've continued experimenting with music while I ride.

    Last weekend Railroad Earth "Elko" (live) and Silver Jews "American Water", "Tanglewood Numbers".

    This weekend...pffft. I can't remember much but I think GD played for hours and hours.

    One observation. On climbs, long climbs, unending painful climbs, I do not like music in my head. I like to "listen" to my body, my breathing. My breathing is almost like listening to an engine and transmission and knowing when to shift. I get into a rhythm and pedal synchronization with the bike and music seems to disrupt that flow. I tried music off/on on two big climbs today; one off, one on. I felt much stronger and better with the music off on the second climb.

    I also like to hear birds, streams/rivers, etc. once in a while.

    Now, on downhill, flowing singletrack and cruising on flatter sections, oh yeah the music can be so good. So I think music is a good diversion at certain points on a ride. I got it so I could pop my headphones in and out quickly.

    Anyway, these are some of the bizarre and mundane things that run through my head on long rides.

    See ya -

    Ed E

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    This has gotten really involved. I hope my offer of emergency help wasn't the cause of turmoil here, it was meant as risk management rather than assistance. All the same, good job managing it all Mike.

    Best of luck with the race, ride strong all.

    - (sad for GH in Paris-Roubaix)

  200. #200
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    Airport?

    Question for Local folks:

    What is the fastest/eaisest in terms of travel: fly into G.J. with connections or fly to SLC and rent a car then drive to G.J.? I think I asked this somewhere else but I don't see it in this thread and I can't remember the answer.

    Thanks

    Adam
    I wanna say I'm sorry for stuff I haven't done yet, things will shortly get completely out of hand --T.M.G.

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