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  1. #1
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    Farther than 1 bottle between aid stations

    So I've signed up for a race this weekend with the simple goal of finishing. It'll be my biggest mtb ride to date (at least climbing wise). A big part of doing it is preparation for SM 100 later this year. My bike (fuel ex), only has 1 bottle mount.

    On longer rides/races so far this year, I've been using a combination of Skratch (1.5 scoops) in a bottle and straight water in my pack.

    This course only has 1 "aid station" that will likely take me close to 3 hours to get to. That's way longer than I think I should go on 1bottle of mix.

    When faced with this type of deal, how do you folks handle it? Pull water from the pack to mix another bottle (or2) on the trail? Or just put mix in your bladder?

    Thanks
    Last edited by notso; 05-02-2018 at 12:58 PM. Reason: fix typo

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    If you donít have 2 bottles you can always run Skratch in your pack too.

  3. #3
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    Add another bottle somewhere.
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    I run a Top Fuel so I'm in the same conundrum. Just did a 50 mile race where it was 2 hour laps each, ran a bottle in the frame and one in my jersey pocket.
    -DC, just some XC Bum in Sfla...

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    x2. Bottle in jersey pocket

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    Behind the saddle bottle cages work well for endurance races. If you are running a fixed post get the seatpost clamps, and if you're running a dropper get the saddle mount. Yes, you look like a triathlete, but necessity trumps fashion. At least there are no aerobars in play...

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    I use Skratch labs mix in my pack and water in a bottle all of the time in longer races. It cleans out easily

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    Quote Originally Posted by euro-trash View Post
    Behind the saddle bottle cages work well for endurance races. If you are running a fixed post get the seatpost clamps, and if you're running a dropper get the saddle mount. Yes, you look like a triathlete, but necessity trumps fashion. At least there are no aerobars in play...
    Tried the post mount and rail mount version of this idea, broke them both in races and lost bottles.
    -DC, just some XC Bum in Sfla...

  9. #9
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    I like having one bottle of pure water. That way you can use it to help wash out your eyes if you get something in them.

    Iíve done one bottle on the frame w/ two in my jersey, two on the frame and one in the jersey etc. Donít be afraid to experiment if itís your first endurance ride. And donít rely on drink mixes 100%, eat the stuff your paying for at the aid station if you feel hungry.





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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkpowa View Post
    Tried the post mount and rail mount version of this idea, broke them both in races and lost bottles.
    I had success duct taping and zip tying an old bottle cage to my top tube for one race. If youíre just riding for the experience, itís a great cheap option. Just watch your nuggets when you dismount.


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  11. #11
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    Carrying plain water is useless as proven over and over by actual scientists. I also carry a small bottle of pure water to clean out my eyes or a cut or something but i carry that in a small squirt bottle from the dollar store. Its a mini shampoo bottle i think.

    Mix skratch in your pack too.
    Ill be out riding, youll still be trolling mtbr. Mtbr, where people who dont ride come to pretend they do.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiveo View Post
    x2. Bottle in jersey pocket
    Same here.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Carrying plain water is useless as proven over and over by actual scientists. I also carry a small bottle of pure water to clean out my eyes or a cut or something but i carry that in a small squirt bottle from the dollar store. Its a mini shampoo bottle i think.

    Mix skratch in your pack too.
    Iíd love to see the research.


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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Carrying plain water is useless as proven over and over by actual scientists.
    Maybe so, but those "actual scientists" don't pedal my bike around for hours at time having convinced me that my deep yearning for something other than sweet or 'thick' liquid is a false craving.

    I ride a hardtail so I always have 2 bottle in my frame (1 water, 1 mix FWIW). When condition get warmer, or a need to cover more distance before refueling then I add a bottle to my jersey pocket.

    Here is another solution that I've not seen mentioned yet.
    https://goo.gl/images/XH9TSJ

    Later,
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jake2185 View Post
    Iíd love to see the research.


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    Ive posted it multiple times in this forum. Educate yourself.
    Ill be out riding, youll still be trolling mtbr. Mtbr, where people who dont ride come to pretend they do.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBaron View Post
    Maybe so, but those "actual scientists" don't pedal my bike around for hours at time having convinced me that my deep yearning for something other than sweet or 'thick' liquid is a false craving.

    I ride a hardtail so I always have 2 bottle in my frame (1 water, 1 mix FWIW). When condition get warmer, or a need to cover more distance before refueling then I add a bottle to my jersey pocket.

    Here is another solution that I've not seen mentioned yet.
    https://goo.gl/images/XH9TSJ

    Later,
    CJB
    I would start with your "mix" being the wrong mix leading to those cravings but we can have this discussion in other threads. I am not going to say that how you feel is wrong or is not what you are feeling of course. We can debate the science though in the appropriate place.
    Ill be out riding, youll still be trolling mtbr. Mtbr, where people who dont ride come to pretend they do.

  17. #17
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    Look into the wolftooth b rad system. You can put two bottles side by side
    Ill be out riding, youll still be trolling mtbr. Mtbr, where people who dont ride come to pretend they do.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Ive posted it multiple times in this forum. Educate yourself.
    I was asking out of sincere curiosity but I think you took it the wrong way. I am a professional educator so Iím pretty good at educating myself and others.

    Thanks for all your help.


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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jake2185 View Post
    I was asking out of sincere curiosity but I think you took it the wrong way. I am a professional educator so Iím pretty good at educating myself and others.

    Thanks for all your help.


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    I didnt take it the wrong way. I told you dont be lazy and im not derailing this thread. Start with the endurance nutrition thread. Any more questions feel free to start a thread or pm me but im.not clogging up this thread into a debate about proper hydration.
    Ill be out riding, youll still be trolling mtbr. Mtbr, where people who dont ride come to pretend they do.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    I would start with your "mix" being the wrong mix leading to those cravings but we can have this discussion in other threads. I am not going to say that how you feel is wrong or is not what you are feeling of course. We can debate the science though in the appropriate place.
    Agree 100%, gotta try different mixes. Carrying straight water isnít needed, kind of a waste of energy honestly.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkpowa View Post
    I run a Top Fuel so I'm in the same conundrum. Just did a 50 mile race where it was 2 hour laps each, ran a bottle in the frame and one in my jersey pocket.
    Same here. 1 in frame 1 in jersey.

  22. #22
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    There's all sorts of stuff you can do.

    Last weekend I used a Revelate Feed-bag to hold a plastic water bottle (bought at a store, but I mixed electrolyte mix into) behind my number-plate and then after I drank it I crushed it and threw it away in a trash-can located along the course (or aid station would work fine here too). Then I re-located my other cycling-water bottle to the feed-back during the long slow climb, to drink from. I also stuff some of my food in the feed-back, so it's easy to get to.
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    I use enough Tailwind in my backpack to get me to the next station. If itís laps, Iíll have another bladder each stop. If itís point-to-point, I carry enough Tailwind packets to mix when I get to the stations. No plain water, no food.
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  24. #24
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    I think the post above about the wolftooth system was overlooked, so here's a picture to get your attention

    Farther than 1 bottle between aid stations-25256_1377462_8629f77b_85f0_42d9_8efc_96368939beaf.jpg

  25. #25
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    Just run mix in a small, light pack. The B-Rad thingy looks promising, but time is pretty short before your race for something brand new.

    FWIW, if your Fuel EX is one of the bigger sizes, you can run 1-liter Zefal Magnum water bottles, which will help a bit.

    Three hours between aid stations seems a bit of poor planning by the race organizer.
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  26. #26
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    is there room to get a 2nd bottle under the down tube? Even if there is no mount you can hose clamp on there an get another bottle. Not easy to reach when riding, but you can swap it out when stopped for a few seconds.

    Here is an electrical tape version


    Bikepacking Hacks - BIKEPACKING.com

    Place for bikepackers, but same concepts apply. Bikepackers are known for creative way to secure lots of water on their bikes.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by coke View Post
    I think the post above about the wolftooth system was overlooked, so here's a picture to get your attention

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	25256_1377462_8629f77b_85f0_42d9_8efc_96368939beaf.jpg 
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    Does that bump your legs or feet ever? What size frame do you ride?

    I like the idea, but I think my knees might not on my small bike.

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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    Does that bump your legs or feet ever? What size frame do you ride?

    I like the idea, but I think my knees might not on my small bike.

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    Check into the b rad system, they have more than just side by side options. May not work on a smal frame but you can alsp do two in a row vs side by side.
    Ill be out riding, youll still be trolling mtbr. Mtbr, where people who dont ride come to pretend they do.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Check into the b rad system, they have more than just side by side options. May not work on a smal frame but you can alsp do two in a row vs side by side.
    Won't work, that's why I wanted to know about the side by side.

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  30. #30
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    Thanks for all of the input guys. I like to have pain water to drink after using gels etc & have had pretty poor success trying to clean out my pack bladder after putting a sugary drink in there. Having the mix in my bottle also helps me stay on schedule with it. I did discover that I can fit the 2l bladder from my old osprey pack into my lobo with the original bladder also in there. That should easily cover me for the distance required.

    The "aid station" is really just a water stop. Last year, there were just like 10 cases of bottled water laying there so I'll have to pack all my own food.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notso View Post
    Thanks for all of the input guys. I like to have pain water to drink after using gels etc & have had pretty poor success trying to clean out my pack bladder after putting a sugary drink in there. Having the mix in my bottle also helps me stay on schedule with it. I did discover that I can fit the 2l bladder from my old osprey pack into my lobo with the original bladder also in there. That should easily cover me for the distance required.

    The "aid station" is really just a water stop. Last year, there were just like 10 cases of bottled water laying there so I'll have to pack all my own food.
    Use denture cleaner to clean your pack. Would suggest you seriously look into your hydration and nutrition methods also. Youll quickly find many flaws. Check out the endurance nutrition thread.

    Carrying 5 liters of plain water is a serious waste of time and energy. If anything make the one bottle plain water.
    Ill be out riding, youll still be trolling mtbr. Mtbr, where people who dont ride come to pretend they do.

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    My set up at Big Frog 65 last weekend. Bottles on the bike have Infinit mix at about 300 cals per bottle. Carried some bars and gels in a jersey pocket and a Camelbak with plain water to wash it down. Did about 4 hours to the aid station stop, swapped on 2 more bottles and some more gels and did a bit under 2 hours to the finish. The weather was cool and the Camelback was overkill. I only drank about 40-50oz of the water. Could have just carried a 3rd bottle in my jersey with water. Note: The bottle on the seatpost was mounted too low. My rear tire did hit it, crack the cage, and pop the bottle out. I had to stop and go back for it since I was only 1 stopping. That cost me some time and getting stuck in traffic. I'm going to try moving it up and using a side load cage instead.

    Farther than 1 bottle between aid stations-20180427_150114903_ios.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Look into the wolftooth b rad system. You can put two bottles side by side
    this. I use one on my Top Fuel, and it's worked wonderfully for me. Two in the cages and one in the pocket means three hours (basically) with no stoppage necessary.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Use denture cleaner to clean your pack. Would suggest you seriously look into your hydration and nutrition methods also. Youll quickly find many flaws. Check out the endurance nutrition thread.

    Carrying 5 liters of plain water is a serious waste of time and energy. If anything make the one bottle plain water.
    I wouldn't call carrying water a waste of energy if it works for them. Depending on the length of race, temp., and intensity I'll frequently bring water.

    Pro tip: Don't tell people what they are doing is wrong; it makes you look condescending, even if you don't mean it that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SLCpowderhound View Post
    I wouldn't call carrying water a waste of energy if it works for them. Depending on the length of race, temp., and intensity I'll frequently bring water.

    Pro tip: Don't tell people what they are doing is wrong; it makes you look condescending, even if you don't mean it that way.

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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLCpowderhound View Post
    I wouldn't call carrying water a waste of energy if it works for them. Depending on the length of race, temp., and intensity I'll frequently bring water.

    Pro tip: Don't tell people what they are doing is wrong; it makes you look condescending, even if you don't mean it that way.

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    Pro tip: This is the endurance racing forum, meaning races over 3hrs. Carrying plain water is useless in a ride or race over 3 hours. Scientifically, Fundamentally wrong. Even in below zero temps, walking your bike.
    Ill be out riding, youll still be trolling mtbr. Mtbr, where people who dont ride come to pretend they do.

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    I almost always carry some plain water. How much I carry can vary from 1 bottle to a 100oz Camelbak depending on the race. Drinking mix gets tough after a while and having some plain water to wash it down helps. Also, having plain water to wash down gels and solid foods helps.

  38. #38
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    So I ended up going with my 1 bottle and a 2L bladder filled skratch. I also had another bladder in my pack with .5L of plain water. It turned out that they had another aid station on the portion of the course that I'd never done before so I could have carried much less liquid all together. I ended up pulling the plug after about 30 miles and 5200ft of climbing (5-1/2 hrs). I still felt "ok" but didn't have enough left in my legs to take on the last mountain we were supposed to climb (approx. 2200 ft) and the person I had carpooled would probably have had to wait like 3 hours for me if I had done it.
    I've got a BUNCH of work to do in the next 4 months....

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by notso View Post
    So I ended up going with my 1 bottle and a 2L bladder filled skratch. I also had another bladder in my pack with .5L of plain water. It turned out that they had another aid station on the portion of the course that I'd never done before so I could have carried much less liquid all together. I ended up pulling the plug after about 30 miles and 5200ft of climbing (5-1/2 hrs). I still felt "ok" but didn't have enough left in my legs to take on the last mountain we were supposed to climb (approx. 2200 ft) and the person I had carpooled would probably have had to wait like 3 hours for me if I had done it.
    I've got a BUNCH of work to do in the next 4 months....
    Are you eating something in addition to drinking the Skratch? Skratch alone doesn't have anywhere near enough calories for 5+ hours. You should be eating or drinking somewhere around 250-300 calories per hour. Possibly more.

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    Rider in my group tried the wolf tooth b rad double barrel this weekend. Loves it. Doesn't hit feet or legs while pedaling. Got it for $37 delivered via ebay with some obscure $3 coupon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sducomb View Post
    Are you eating something in addition to drinking the Skratch? Skratch alone doesn't have anywhere near enough calories for 5+ hours. You should be eating or drinking somewhere around 250-300 calories per hour. Possibly more.
    Endurance race fueling is so personal. I have my own system that works for me, but I know won't work for others. What is a fact however is that you need to replenish food reserves and need to have it down well to survive these rides/races. It takes time experimentation to find what works for your body.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sducomb View Post
    Are you eating something in addition to drinking the Skratch? Skratch alone doesn't have anywhere near enough calories for 5+ hours. You should be eating or drinking somewhere around 250-300 calories per hour. Possibly more.
    I ate 1 PBJ sandwich, 2 gels, 2 peanut butter cookies, and a pack of blocks. I had a 2nd PB&J in my pack along with some more gels that I didn't get to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Endurance race fueling is so personal. I have my own system that works for me, but I know won't work for others. What is a fact however is that you need to replenish food reserves and need to have it down well to survive these rides/races. It takes time experimentation to find what works for your body.
    Yep. Fueling is very personal. 250-300 calories per hour is sort of the generally accepted baseline of what the body can absorb under stress. It's a good starting point to experiment from. I can't do much more than about 350 per hour without stomach issues but I've seen people do much more than that and be quite successful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Endurance race fueling is so personal. I have my own system that works for me, but I know won't work for others. What is a fact however is that you need to replenish food reserves and need to have it down well to survive these rides/races. It takes time experimentation to find what works for your body.
    Bingo. Ask any group of successful long course triathletes or marathon trail runners and each one of them will give you different nutrition plans. Heck, I even have one friend that has been known to down a few "special" gummy bears in 100 mile trail runs in Colorado. Race with what works for you.

    All that said, that Wolftooth system looks pretty intriguing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    It's ok, no one takes him seriously.
    Haha! Good, I'd hate to have someone come along at a later date and accidentally take his advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fiveo View Post
    x2. Bottle in jersey pocket
    Word...
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    What about carrying gels or Shot Blocks for energy replenishment?
    The only important thing these days, is rhythm and melody. Rhythm...and melody.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    What about carrying gels or Shot Blocks for energy replenishment?
    are you asking about where? I use a mountain feedbag as shoulder boo boos don't let me reach into my back pockets very easily. The other thing I noticed when I first started using them is that the stuff is always in my sight and thus in my mind - I tend to eat more regularly.

    if that's not what you're asking then disregard

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLCpowderhound View Post
    Haha! Good, I'd hate to have someone come along at a later date and accidentally take his advice.

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    Show me your phd in nutrition. I hope no one listens to me too, that means less competition to worry about, including people in this thread . Carry 5 gqllons of water , take gels, amd take "mixes". Ill be laughing my way to the finosh line.
    Ill be out riding, youll still be trolling mtbr. Mtbr, where people who dont ride come to pretend they do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Show me your phd in nutrition. I hope no one listens to me too, that means less competition to worry about, including people in this thread . Carry 5 gqllons of water , take gels, amd take "mixes". Ill be laughing my way to the finosh line.
    Lane, I'm certain you have valuable insight on some things but you really need to realize that there is usually more than one way to solve a problem and that is the case here.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt Disney's Frozen Head View Post
    Lane, I'm certain you have valuable insight on some things but you really need to realize that there is usually more than one way to solve a problem and that is the case here.
    You have to remember, Lane nearly raced a few weekends ago in Prescott.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  52. #52
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    It wasn't too long ago that Lane was asking for nutrition advice in this very sub-forum. Draw your own conclusions.
    "These things are very fancy commuter bikes or really bad dirt bikes, but they are not mountain bikes." - J. Mac

  53. #53
    LDC is ded,deth by trollz
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    I have a paid nutritionist, and have read hundreds of pages of literature. Dont believe anything i say. Please. Im serious because then you might perform better and i will have more competition in my imaginary races i dont enter. Believe a bunch of people on mtbr because they all have phds in everything, and have conducted multiple clinical trials in every subject.
    Ill be out riding, youll still be trolling mtbr. Mtbr, where people who dont ride come to pretend they do.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    I have a paid nutritionist, and have read hundreds of pages of literature. Dont believe anything i say. Please. Im serious because then you might perform better and i will have more competition in my imaginary races i dont enter. Believe a bunch of people on mtbr because they all have phds in everything, and have conducted multiple clinical trials in every subject.


    Some of the people you try to give expert advice to, are experts. I'll leave it at that for the time being.
    "These things are very fancy commuter bikes or really bad dirt bikes, but they are not mountain bikes." - J. Mac

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    I have a paid nutritionist, and have read hundreds of pages of literature. Dont believe anything i say. Please. Im serious because then you might perform better and i will have more competition in my imaginary races i dont enter. Believe a bunch of people on mtbr because they all have phds in everything, and have conducted multiple clinical trials in every subject.
    I run clinical trials every time I ride my bike. I know what works for me, no paid nutritionist or literature can dispute that.

    Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

  56. #56
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    Maybe not the best solution for podium chasing, but does anybody ever use one of those flexible Platypus bladders in a back center jersey pocket instead of a bottle?

    Being an avowed Hater of Packs, I use these on long rides. I've got two. One is a half-liter and one is a liter. Honestly, 750 mls would be perfect. It takes a bit longer to deal with than a bottle.

    Pro Tip 1: Trim the square corners off the bottom so they slide in and out of pockets more easily. Those corners serve no purpose other than helping a full bladder stand up on the kitchen counter.

    Pro Tip 2: Never, and I mean NEVER, fill these with plain water!

    (which, honestly, I happen to quietly agree with)
    Whining is not a strategy.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt Disney's Frozen Head View Post
    are you asking about where? I use a mountain feedbag as shoulder boo boos don't let me reach into my back pockets very easily. The other thing I noticed when I first started using them is that the stuff is always in my sight and thus in my mind - I tend to eat more regularly.

    if that's not what you're asking then disregard
    I was wondering if you use other types of fuel than liquid-based.
    The only important thing these days, is rhythm and melody. Rhythm...and melody.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Pro tip: This is the endurance racing forum, meaning races over 3hrs. Carrying plain water is useless in a ride or race over 3 hours. Scientifically, Fundamentally wrong. Even in below zero temps, walking your bike.
    No, it's not, i'm guessing you've never been riding in a desert when it's over 80 degrees out. I've gone through 150oz of water doing 50+ miles unsupported in Moab. Water for hydration, honey stinger, salty snacks, candy, etc.. other foods for energy. If you want to carry more than 3L of water, bikepacking style frame bags are the way to go IMHO.

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