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  1. #1
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    **CTR Thread**

    First update - pics will be up tomorrow! Thanks CHRIS!!!

    The CTR is underway!!!!!

    This is directly from Chris P, who was at the start this afternoon. Thanks Chris.

    Sounds like its a solid field - experience vs. endurance - Matt Lee showed up. I'm sure coming off the GDR gave him some solid stamina. Not sure what to think about a Denver Post reporter making a story of this - but we'll see how it pans out. Good luck to all the racer - it'll be an interesting week or two...

    Pics will post tomorrow morning


    And they're off!!!

    The CTR pre-race meeting began as you might expect considering the cast of
    characters that would dare to dream of even starting such a ride. The
    meeting was pretty laid back and between noon and 1:00 p.m. 8 of the 10
    riders straggled in. At 1:00 they went over the Wilderness detours and other
    specific trail notes along with the usual basics such as "leave no trace,"
    and war stories from other rides.

    Just before 2 p.m. they all headed out to the Waterton Canyon parking lot
    where gear was assembled and strapped to bikes and couple more riders showed
    up. There was the usual group photo and a Denver Post reporter was
    interviewing riders and even joined them for a ways up the trail. Look for
    his story in the paper next week.

    At 3:00 p.m. sharp the riders began with a neutral start for the first 6
    miles to Strontia Springs Reservoir to warm up those legs and get to know
    one another. At the reservoir all was fair game and they were off!

    The field consisted of the following 10 riders:

    Jim Ishman (Silverthorne, CO)
    Dan Montgomery (Dillon, CO)
    Ethan Passant (Crested Butte, CO)
    Fred Wilkinson (Moab, UT)
    Jason Trimm (Crested Butte, CO)
    Mathew Lee (North Carolina)
    Dave Nice (Denver, CO)
    Stefan Griebel (Boulder, CO)
    Jefe Branham (Gunnison, CO)
    Mark Caminiti (Silver Plume, CO)

    Pre-race photos, group and individual shots, plus some trail photos are soon
    to follow.

    Cheers,
    Chris P

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    Dave Nice Call in -

    Reporting in at the start line at Waterton canyon. Um Matt Lee and I rode from Quodba after the pre race meeting, we were the only ones to ride to the trailhead. Uh, Matt Lee and I had a flat this morning getting down to Waterton Canyon, hopefully we got that bad ju-ju out of our way. Its lookin like theres about a dozen of us. Looks like a couple single speeders, I'm on the fixed and the rest, everybody else is on a mix of 29-ers 26 full suspension and all that good stuff. Hope to call from ****** if theres a phone there, if not then Frisco or Copper. Thanks...

  3. #3
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    Woah - Ethan Passant is there? Two time Montezuma's Revenge champion and a dominant force on the Colorado Randonee uphill/downhill alpine mountaineering ski racing series. I'd tab him as the favorite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Froman
    First update - pics will be up tomorrow! Thanks CHRIS!!!

    The CTR is underway!!!!!

    This is directly from Chris P, who was at the start this afternoon. Thanks Chris.

    Sounds like its a solid field - experience vs. endurance - Matt Lee showed up. I'm sure coming off the GDR gave him some solid stamina. Not sure what to think about a Denver Post reporter making a story of this - but we'll see how it pans out. Good luck to all the racer - it'll be an interesting week or two...

    Pics will post tomorrow morning


    And they're off!!!

    The CTR pre-race meeting began as you might expect considering the cast of
    characters that would dare to dream of even starting such a ride. The
    meeting was pretty laid back and between noon and 1:00 p.m. 8 of the 10
    riders straggled in. At 1:00 they went over the Wilderness detours and other
    specific trail notes along with the usual basics such as "leave no trace,"
    and war stories from other rides.

    Just before 2 p.m. they all headed out to the Waterton Canyon parking lot
    where gear was assembled and strapped to bikes and couple more riders showed
    up. There was the usual group photo and a Denver Post reporter was
    interviewing riders and even joined them for a ways up the trail. Look for
    his story in the paper next week.

    At 3:00 p.m. sharp the riders began with a neutral start for the first 6
    miles to Strontia Springs Reservoir to warm up those legs and get to know
    one another. At the reservoir all was fair game and they were off!

    The field consisted of the following 10 riders:

    Jim Ishman (Silverthorne, CO)
    Dan Montgomery (Dillon, CO)
    Ethan Passant (Crested Butte, CO)
    Fred Wilkinson (Moab, UT)
    Jason Trimm (Crested Butte, CO)
    Mathew Lee (North Carolina)
    Dave Nice (Denver, CO)
    Stefan Griebel (Boulder, CO)
    Jefe Branham (Gunnison, CO)
    Mark Caminiti (Silver Plume, CO)

    Pre-race photos, group and individual shots, plus some trail photos are soon
    to follow.

    Cheers,
    Chris P

  4. #4
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    I haven't heard any definitive reports yet, but it's looking like weather is gonna be a factor. I'm seeing strong chances of heavy rain in the racer's path.

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    Another update from yesterday


    About 3:50 P.M.

    At about 8 miles into the ride and only 2 miles on single track, the field
    is basically still together. Five lead riders of Stefan, Mathew, Fred,
    Ethan, and Jason seem to have set a tempo and are all hanging together (see
    photos).

    Only a minute back are Jefe and Dan with Mark another minute behind them.
    The two single speeders follow a mere 3 minutes back each with Dave riding a
    single speed fixie and Jim a single speed freewheel.

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    Race Start




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    Quote Originally Posted by Pluto Pilot
    Woah - Ethan Passant is there? Two time Montezuma's Revenge champion and a dominant force on the Colorado Randonee uphill/downhill alpine mountaineering ski racing series. I'd tab him as the favorite.
    True, he tore up CB this past weekend. We'll see how he holds up over a couple days, once the race goes mental. Matt and Fred have massive strength in the head, so it'll make for some good reading in the leather lounger over scotch and cigars (eh, Ed?).


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    Leaders at the 350PM Update

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    Stefan


    Matt Lee


    Mark


    Jim


    Jefe


    Jason


    Fred


    Ethan


    Dave


    Dan

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    Looks like lots of different gear selections. Jefe w/ most everthing on his bike to Caminiti's nekkid DH setup.

  11. #11
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    Exactly. We should all go to the Brown Palace and analyze this proper style.

    Quote Originally Posted by ionsmuse
    True, he tore up CB this past weekend. We'll see how he holds up over a couple days, once the race goes mental. Matt and Fred have massive strength in the head, so it'll make for some good reading in the leather lounger over scotch and cigars (eh, Ed?).


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    Look Mom - No Hands

    When I was down at the starting line, I noticed on Mark's bike that he has what he calls a "hands free" device that you probably can not see in the photo. It is a length of coat hanger wire doubled over, twisted together, and attached to the end of one handlebar. This allowed him to sit up on his saddle and grab this steer wire to direct his bike.

    I talked to him about it on the neutral ride out to Strontia and he said he is experimenting with this idea so that he doesn't have to be hunched over all the time. He thought it would work out well on easier terrain, but had not illusions that he would be able to sit up for the whole ride.

    It was an interested idea, considering he put all of his gear on his body. I'm skeptical about loading up the body with gear. I'm sure it would destroy my back, but heck - perhaps it will be the new thing. Interesting none the less.

    Cheers,
    Chris Piper

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    Those of you using IE probably noticed that the mtbcast.com page was fubar'd. I rarely us anything but Firefox so when I made some changes I didn't notice it was screwed up. Thanks, Matt McFee, for pointing it out. It should look fine now.
    _______
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  14. #14
    Really I am that slow
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    I'm Out

    Thanks Edmtb for the bail out from Deckers....

    Rain,

    Crash,

    Broken Bike , broke brooks, bent/dented niner fork, computer cable

    Me bruised hip, elbow,shin

    Maybe a cracked rib

    Good luck to everyone else hopefully I took care of the Bad JuJu
    Read my BLOG!

    just a guy who loves bikes and exploring

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    Call in from Jim Ishman. Jim withdrew at Silverthorne:

    Hey itís Jim, calling and checking in from Silverthorne. Um, Iím officially out of the race. A couple little mechanicals added up to be a big pain in the butt. So, um, I am pulling the plug. I wish good luck to everybody. Looks like thereís a strong possibility of rain up here so hopefully those guys are staying dry.

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    Call in from Dave - although it looks like he beat me too it. Dave crashed a couple times, damaging his bike and himself and withdrew from the race.

    This is Dave, had to bail in Deckers off route. Had a crash during the evening during the rain. Had another crash this morning and donít know which crash it may have happened on but it put a quarter size dent in my right fork leg, not to mention my right hip and elbows are a little sore, so Iím out. Only two highlights really Ė the milkshake Iím eating right now and when Mathew Lee asked if I was carrying a shock pump. Anyway, Iím out. Iíll talk to you soon, bye.

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    Call in from Stefan - Arrived at Copper at 4:43PM Friday (25:43 Elapsed). I haven't recieved any other call-ins yet, so it appears Stefan is in the lead.

    Hey Abe or Joe, its Stefan, I just arrived at Copper Mountain. Itís 4:43 Friday. Last night was pretty epic Ė it pretty much drizzled all night long. The road was sopping wet and muddy, and the last thing I wanted to do was have a sopping wet cold bivy so I pushed on through the night and now I think I need to go and get some sleep. Yup, groovy Ė talk to you guys in a bit.

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    So we're down to eight riders:

    Dan Montgomery (Dillon, CO)
    Ethan Passant (Crested Butte, CO)
    Fred Wilkinson (Moab, UT)
    Jason Trimm (Crested Butte, CO)
    Mathew Lee (North Carolina)
    Stefan Griebel (Boulder, CO)
    Jefe Branham (Gunnison, CO)
    Mark Caminiti (Silver Plume, CO)

    It appears Stefan is in the lead, hitting Copper at 443PM Friday afternoon - 25:43 elapsed.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowerThenSnot
    Thanks Edmtb for the bail out from Deckers....
    No worries Dave. Sorry that you had to bail but I was glad to see you were alright.

    It looks like Jim also bailed, too bad. Nice effort Jim!

    Good luck to the remaining contestants

    Get some rest and see you soon Dave -

    Ed

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    Second episode is up with Jim, Dave, and Stefan. Wouldn't you know after I post Jefe calls in. I'll have that for playback tomorrow.
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    Jefe call in at 803PM Ė elapsed time 29:03

    Hello, this is Jefe calling in from CTR. Iím at Copper Mountain, just want to let you know Iím on course doing alright, and looking forward to the rest of the race, and I guess Iíll call in again at Buena Vista. Alright, I think thatís all I got to do so Iíll talk to you later. Bye.

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    update from the copper pay phone

    Alison here. I went to copper yesterday to see if i could run into anyone and apparently just missed Ethan, Stephan, and Fred. Not sure of the order at that point. Rode down the bike path and ran into Jefe between Frisco and Breck around 7pm. He looked great, but said his legs were a bit heavy. He said he camped near the lake on the road last night, and that he saw Ethan in the AM, as Ethan had slept in late and then passed him in the morning. I rode backwards up to the Gold Creek turn off and it started raining, but saw no one else. Jason called in around 8:30 this morning and said that he ran out of food, cramped up and got rained on while bivying on both nights, but that he plan was to keep sleeping at night and not riding much at night due to the large amount of daylight right now, and also trying to pace and get rested. He said he felt much better at Copper and hoped to get between leadville and BV tonight. I drove from Copper to Crested Butte last night in heavy rain. Looks like it would have been a tough night out for all involved last night. Ethan got a ride to Denver with Jason and I, and I don't think he has a bivy, but he is tougher than nails! I have a fun video from the ride at the beginning of the race, is there any way to post it?

  23. #23
    Exactly 1/2 of 2-Epic
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGSNOW
    I have a fun video from the ride at the beginning of the race, is there any way to post it?
    http://www.youtube.com/

    You can certainly post a link to your upload on youtube. You may also be able to imbed the video in the forum, but I don't think I've seen it done yet.
    Dave

    Anything is possible. The impossible just takes longer.

    2 Epic

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    youtube.com video of gentleman's start


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    FWIW
    Ran into Mathew Lee and Dan Montgomery on Main St. Frisco this morning at around 9am. They both said that it has been VERY wet, but also very fun. Their main priority at that point was getting breakfast, so I get out of the way and they were off.

    Mathew is a friggin machine. GDR, then guiding a group on the "Canadian Prologue" of the GDR for Adventure Cycling and now CTR! Impressive and inspiring. He has my vote for tough guy of the year.

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    Fred- 520AM (Elapsed Time 38:20)

    Hey this is Fred W calling from Copper Mountain Conoco. I’m here with Ethan P, time is, I guess just almost 520AM. Spent the night in Frisco, it was really rainy, hopefully everyone else isn’t too wet. We’re gonna ride on towards Leadville and hopefully Buena Vista today. Good luck to the other riders. Talk to you soon

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    Jason (41:45 elapsed)

    Hey this is Jason, Iím at Copper Mountain, its about 845AM. Things are going good. A little discouraging yesterday morning, ran a little low on food, but I just spent $32 at a Loaf and Jug so I should be set. Thanks everyone for the good thoughts. Iíll call back again in Buena Vista. Bye

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    Matt Lee (elapsed 41:40 Frisco)

    Hey MTBCast, its Mathew Lee calling from Frisco, Colorado. Itís about 840AM in the morning and I just had a big fat breakfast and I think Iím powered up to head on for Copper and beyond. The trail is riding great, Iím felling really tired but I have defaulted to a pleasure pace that seems to work for me. Iím really excited about the trail. Georgia Pass downhill last night was amazing - lots of roots, rocks and reggae East Coast style. Iím happy and the rain hasnít been too bad Ė so spirits are good. I hope everyone else is doing well. Ok, take care.

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    Stephan at Leadville (aprox 850AM, elapsed 41:50 at Leadville)

    Hi itís Stephan, just rolling through Leadville. Got a little screwed by the rain last night and had to back off *** pass and had to bivy Ė actually bivied on the front porch of Janetís Cabin. I wake up and see a headlamp going up so I race up to catch him and it was Jefe. Weíve been kinda playing cat and mouse and Iíll be out of here in a few. Um, forecast is, well I donít know what the forecast is but just lookiní out its more rain. Thereís been a lot of rain. Never been so happy to have raingear and booties. OK, bye.

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    Jefe (850AM Leadville, elapsed 41:50)

    Hello, this is Jefe. Probably just heard from Stefan, but I am in Leadville as well. Weíre at the Safeway getting some food and getting read to head out. Thanks for receiving this message and things are going pretty good. Thank you, bye.

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    Dan (Copper at 1005AM, elapsed 43:05)

    This is Dan from Dillon, Iím at Copper Mountain.

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    Stephan (Buena Vista 606PM, elapsed 51:06)

    Hey its Stephan, Iím just rolling out of Buena Vista towards some nice rain clouds over the avalanche trailhead area but it hasnít rained yet today so thatís a bonus. Iím about half way done mileage wise, not true for elevation gain but I feel alright, my crankset is a little bit loose, Iím kinda worried about that. Wonder where everybody is - Iím sure Iíll see all kinds of people out there. Bye

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    Jefe (Buena Vista 643PM Ė elapsed 51:43)

    Hey there, this is Jefe calling from Buena Vista, doing alright. Just got some food and some coffee. Iím gonna head out to Cottonwood pass and head south. Everything is going good and Iíll talk to you soon. Bye.

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    As of Buena Vista
    1. Stefan 51:03
    2. Jefe 51:43
    3. Mathew 52:30
    3. Ethan 52:30
    5. Fred 55:00
    5. Jason 55:00
    Last edited by Froman; 07-22-2007 at 11:25 AM.

  35. #35
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    Holy crap those guys are close together after riding for so long! Hope Stefan's crank stays together, I had a RF outboard crankset that was perfect for months and then suddenly refused to stay together (literally) for no apparent reason.

    What a strong and inspiring field of riders! (says the guy with wet gear from a mighty 90 minute evening rain ride)

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    Sorry for the late post, guys. The audio for all these is up at MTBCast.com EP3.
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    this is dan atleadville 66 hours into it. rain over copper mtn. about did me in, but after a twelve hour break at a hotel. I'll be off taking it easy and seeing what happens. getting dry is nice, hope it lasts.

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    Ethan (Buena 730PM, elapsed 53:30)

    Hey there this is Ethan from Crested Butte, CO on the CTR in Buena Vista. Its Saturday at 730PM. Alright, things are going well, gonna head out to the hot springs and soak a little bit I think. Iíll call you once I get to Lake City. Chow

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    Mathew Lee (Leadville 730PM, elapsed 52:30)

    Hey this is Mathew Lee calling from Leadville, CO. It is 730PM and Iím riding out a pretty nasty storm at the Conoco, and it doesnít look like its gonna stop any time soon. So, who knows when Iíll be leaving here. Itís the second time today I got lambasted with rain, looks like the monsoons are full on, so yea, tough going. OK, see ya.

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    Fred (Buena Vista 10PM, elapsed 55:00)

    Hello this is Fred, Iím one of the CTR racers and Iím in Buena Vista, its probably around 1000 PM and I just rolled in with Jason, actually the two of us rode down into town together. I think weíre both trying to find a place to sleep for the night, maybe bivy up in the town park or something like that. Talk to you soon, bye.

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    Jason (Buena Vista 645AM, Elapsed 63:45)

    Hey this is Jason, Iím in Buena Vista, its 645AM. Another rainy night but it looks good, blue skies and Iím on my way. Thanks everyone.

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    Oh so close and sweet!

    Way to go racers. I would never have thought it would be this close between the top riders, especially how close it is between Stefan and Jefe.

    Stefan - I almost cracked open the Chimay Imperial Ale you gave me, but I decided to save it for your return. We'll share it - or I'll just come up to the Sun and we'll drink stout. Go, Go, Go - don't let Jefe sneak past you in the night!

    Jefe - way to go - when I met you at the start line, I instantly pegged you as the one to watch for the race. Here's wishing you well.

    Chris

  43. #43
    I'm how far behind?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Froman
    A couple little mechanicals added up to be a big pain in the butt.
    FWIW- I stripped two crank bolts- guess I did not tighten them enough when I swapped out the 34 for a 32. All I had was the sharp flat head on an Alien tool which was too much for the alloy bolts. Got it tight enough to baby it then I broke a spring in my pedal, not too big of a deal since they had a little platform, then came the rain with made the platform slick. Top it off with a late addition of a rear rack that hit the tire with every flex of the seat post.

    My call in made it sound like I bailed from Silverthorne, which is where I was calling from. I actually bailed from Section 2 and rode out to 285 and called my wife for a ride home.

    jim
    Fatter than most.

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    Mark (Copper 3PM Sunday, elapsed 72 hours)

    Hey this is Mark, it 300PM. Iím in Copper Mountain, its Sunday. Heading out towards the pass. Had a massive drive train failure at about mile 30. Been stuck in 7th gear, broken rear shifter for the last 130 miles. Got that fixed in Frisco, feelin better now, gonna try to make Leadville by tomorrow morning. Been a pretty good ride so far, other than the mechanicals. Talk to you guys in Leadville.

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    Mathew Lee (Buena Vista Sunday 545PM, 74:45 elapsed)

    Hey, Mathew Lee here in Buena Vista. 545PM, just loaded up for a couple days of riding and headed to Princeton Hot springs. The weather was good today. Alright, bye.

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    Dan (Buena Vista 74:53 elapsed)

    This is Dan from Dillon, 74:53 elapsed, Iím in Buena Vista, loaded heavy with food, going up to where ever. Feelin good, weather looks good [long pause], um, see ya later.

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    The audio is up for last night. Go here or get it from iTunes.
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  48. #48
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    This part of the course

    So does anybody know anything about the course from Marshall Pass to Lake City, and for that matter, Silverton? I hear it's almost completely flat and totally smooth too.

    Isn't this near where Alfred Packer ate his whole group? Hope that doesn't happen here.

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    If there's anyone out there who has done the route or race and would like to do a spot for the show let me know. I'd like to get some insight into the route.
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    Jefe (Lake City, 443PM Monday, elapsed 97:40)

    Hey there guys, this is Jefe. I am in Lake City just getting some food and heading out Iím *** (something about an engineer) *** and Iíll call you when I get to Silverton. Cool, thanks, bye.

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    Standings as of Lake City - note - I don't think Lake City is a mandatory call in, so the results may be skewed.
    1. Jefe 97:40 elapsed
    1. Stefan 97:40 elapsed
    3. Jason 113:30 elapsed
    4. Matt Lee 127:08 elapsed
    Last edited by Froman; 07-25-2007 at 07:28 AM.

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    Stefan (Lake City, with Jefe – same elapsed at 97:40)

    Hey it’s Stefan, Jefe and I are just leaving Lake City, hopefully it won’t rain, headed over Cinnamon Pass. We’ll see how it goes – it’s gonna be a good one. Bye.

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    updates from BV-fooses-cochetopa hills-rt 114

    alison here. lots of information to report from the mtns. Jason called in to say that he passed Mathew Lee in Frisco, then caught up to Fred Just before Buena Vista, and Ethan just after BV.

    Stephan faired well, making it out of BV the evening before and scoring a couch at Princeton hot springs, while Jefe was 1 1/2 hours short of Princeton camping, and watched it pour on the boys camped in BV, but managed to be in a dry area, while the rest of the guys behind got soaked, i imagine (Jason, Ethan, Mathew, Fred).

    Ethan left BV around 6am after a night and shower at Arrowhead Campground, a 4 mile detour since all the rooms were full. Jason had the man in front of him score the last room in BV at the super 8, so had to find a bivy spot. He got rained out and also disturbed by partiers at the River basin park. at midnight, he moved and carried his wet bivy and gear and spent the rest of the night in the dugout of the baseball park in BV. Jason left BV around 7:30am and caught up to Ethan that morning and they switched back and forth for the whole day. I was unable to find out where Fred or Mathew Lee spent the night, but all rooms were sold out there were intense downpours all night from what i can gather.

    I rode from highway 50 on the trail and ran into Jefe just after Angel of Shavano campground, where he had just caught a quick nap. he was in great spirits and was plugging along with his strategy of lots of methodical slower riding and almost no sleep. I am amazed that he can just keep going like that. About 4.5 hrs later i ran into Ethan and Jason around the cabin turnoff see fun video of 2:30pm on Sunday - i'll post it in a few minutes.Ethan said that he had not seen fred's tracks and i had not seen fred, so we think he is behind Jason and Ethan now. I watched Ethan and Jason switch leads for 2 hrs until they headed up the ugly 3200 ft hike a bike up Fooses Creek. Ethan and jason bivied just pass marshall pass.

    I then moved around to the other side of Cochetopa Hills near hwy 114. On monday morning I woke up to lights at Luan creek near and got a interview with Stephan at 5:50 am. Stephan said I was the first person he had spoken to in days! I'll post the videos in a few minutes.Stefan is riding like a madman, still full of energy like the Energizer Bunny. i could barely keep him from eating and only got a few minutes out of him before he bolted, fearing Jefe hot on his tail. His breaks are so fast that you would think he was in the 24 hour world championships. Jefe pulled up to the same spot at 8:20am, very laid back and extremely talkative. I got one of the best interviews yet, as i have finally learned to ask lots of questions to get people out of their daze.
    Jefe was all smiles, but said that he almost cracked in the Cochetopa Hills last night. He got a few hours of sleep at Long Branch, which is halfway or so between marshall pass and Luan. If you haven't ever ridden this section -eh gads, it it to hell and back. Makes the BV to Marshall section look easy, which happens to also have some of the slowest going on the whole trail. Jefe has been riding 20 hours per day - as he proclaims that he has to make up for his lack of speed by riding more than everyone else. And he said the going is so slow due to the rough trail - he managed only 60 miles in 20 hours!

    Stefan proclaims the same strategy, and it seems to be working for them both. i don't know how they can keep doing it, and also manage to ride some of the toughest sections of singletrack in the dark. I rode up the trail for 3 hrs but saw no one but one hiker. Insane trail area, that i have done before and don't care to spend much time riding on in my life. Around Long Branch it is all baby heads rattling your brain and body, even with sick ass suspension. and you are on and off your bike every few minutes, it seems. The climbs are short and steep and loose, mostly hiking or asphyxiate yourself, with a quick descent and then you are at it again. averaging around 3mph the whole section from marshall to Luan at rt 114.

    Ethan came through around 2pm at Luan, and he was so glad to have that dismal section over with. He has a huge bruise from his pedal hitting him repeatedly in the leg from all the hike-a-biking. Jason came through a few minutes behind, with the chipper person of yesterday completely gone - he is in agony all of a sudden, and tells me emphatically not to do the race next year. He has some major pain where men don't want to feel pain, and says that on each and every pedal stroke feels like someone kicked him in the nuts. He was almost out of advil, and was not optimistic about making it to lake city that night. Ethan was thinking about doing some night riding tonight, which may make things interesting, as he has been getting quite a bit of sleep so far. I'm not sure where Fred is now, Ethan and Jason thought he was ahead in BV, but now it appears that Fred and Matt are now behind Ethan and Jason.

    at Luan Creek the order was:
    1. Stefan 5:50am Monday
    2. Jefe 8:20am Monday
    3. Ethan 2:30pm Monday
    4. Jason 2:32pm monday

    Stefan was going to skip lake city and go to Silverton, because you have to go off route there. it is not a mandatory call in until Silverton. Jefe needed to pick up food at the post office -as he is allergic to wheat and has to arrange all his food, and he mailed food into himself there. glad he made it in time! no loaf and jug for him! so i imagine Stefan is still ahead of him, and gaining some time without the detour.

    I'm sure i forgot some details, and lots more info is on the videos, coming next, so check em out. Someone was asking for some details on the trail, i'm happy to help... send me an email.
    cheers, alison gannett

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    done route?

    Quote Originally Posted by jav1231
    If there's anyone out there who has done the route or race and would like to do a spot for the show let me know. I'd like to get some insight into the route.

    done most all of the route. love to help. alison

  55. #55
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    Thanks for all the beta Alison. Awesome report, you've been spending alot of time in those hills eh?

    60 miles in 20 hours!!!! Holy ouch, that's a rough section. There's a similar 60 mile stretch in the grand loop but it's not quite that bad.

    From the call in's looks like Stephan changed his mind and went to Lake City. He and Jefe arrived at the same time. That's just amazing for those two to be riding neck and neck after 4+ days. So Ethan is ~ 6 hours back and sounds to have been getting plenty of rest...interesting. Can a (relatively) well rested powerhouse make up that sort of time if he rides through the night? Will Jason ever have children?

    Gonna be a nailbiter!
    Dave

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    Toast

    I am out. At 95 hours. Chasing Mathew Lee up Foose Creek about 1;30pm. I called it quits. Thinking about my mistakes, I rolled back to the comfort zone. Mathew should have made over the top without any storms.
    Woke up at 5am at Princeston Hot Spgs, got climbing again. About 8, Mathew caught me 6 miles out. That was the last I saw of him. I finished this segment at 1;15pm , started climbing Foose for a few miles and called it.
    I was not prepared for the next segment, bike mechanicals, food,body, ect.
    This was just practice for next year. I will be back.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    Thanks for all the beta Alison. Awesome report, you've been spending alot of time in those hills eh?

    60 miles in 20 hours!!!! Holy ouch, that's a rough section. There's a similar 60 mile stretch in the grand loop but it's not quite that bad.

    From the call in's looks like Stephan changed his mind and went to Lake City. He and Jefe arrived at the same time. That's just amazing for those two to be riding neck and neck after 4+ days. So Ethan is ~ 6 hours back and sounds to have been getting plenty of rest...interesting. Can a (relatively) well rested powerhouse make up that sort of time if he rides through the night? Will Jason ever have children?

    Gonna be a nailbiter!
    Hard saying with Ethan. My bet is he turns it up here shortly.

    Nice reports, Alison. I should of been with you instead of working. I am sure those guys love seeing someone out there in the cheering squad in person.

    Travis

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    Quote Originally Posted by consumerbydesign
    I am out. At 95 hours. Chasing Mathew Lee up Foose Creek about 1;30pm. I called it quits. Thinking about my mistakes, I rolled back to the comfort zone. Mathew should have made over the top without any storms.
    Woke up at 5am at Princeston Hot Spgs, got climbing again. About 8, Mathew caught me 6 miles out. That was the last I saw of him. I finished this segment at 1;15pm , started climbing Foose for a few miles and called it.
    I was not prepared for the next segment, bike mechanicals, food,body, ect.
    This was just practice for next year. I will be back.
    Nice strong effort!

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    video of Stefan - 5:50 am Monday Luan Creek

    <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNAwiuqeO2w>

    Video to go with my my update from the trail posted about 1 1/2 hrs ago.

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    video of Stefan - 5:50 am Monday Luan Creek

    oopppssss...
    here is the youtube link of stefan to go with my post:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNAwiuqeO2w

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGSNOW
    alison here. ...
    Way to go Alison. Great report. I was talking to my buddy at work and were thinking about doing exactly what you are, but next year - or I may just enter the friggin thing. I bet you are having loads of fun out there.

    Chris

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    Smile Jason Catches Ethan - Video

    Day 4 - Buena Vista to Fooses Creek - Jason Catches up to Ethan - Video Link

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnB7ibqc5ZU

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    Jefe's update - video at Luan

    very fun 5 minute video of Jefe's adventures

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPGrEZqmaKY

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    Allison - thanks for the videos. Awesome!

    Anyplans to catch up to them in the san juans anywhere?

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    You're winning the investigative journalism award, Al!


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    Mark (Buena Vista 830PM Monday)

    This is Mark, its 830PM Monday night. Iím in Buena, I had to make a big push to get here. Got hammered with weather. Gonna stay at a hotel, gonna head out tomorrow. Doing pretty good, now that Iíve got a drive train running. Got hit pretty hard with hail and weather today about half way here. [says something] got all the way down the road. Iím about half way through and Iím still on my plan to make it in about 9.5 to 10 days. Iím feeling pretty good physically Ė a little beat up, but not bad for how far Iíve come. Iíll get back with you guys hopefully in Silverton, which is going to be a major push for me, but thatís my plan. Gonna head out tomorrow and start heading that way, maybe be there in three days, maybe 3.5. Later.

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    Great stuff Alison. And having known Stefan for more than 20 years (and the fact he's my brother-in-law), I can confirm Stefan is a madman, whether he's racing or climbing or whatever. In a good way, of course.
    --Chuck

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    Not to beat a dead horse, but thanks much Alison!....Very cool to be able to keep in touch with the riders via video and detailed reports.
    bp

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGSNOW
    very fun 5 minute video of Jefe's adventures

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPGrEZqmaKY
    Awesome video! Super job Alison!

    The strong wookie is looking great too, rock on Jefe.
    Dave

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    Stefan (Silverton, 11:31PM, Elapsed 104:31)

    Hey, itís Stefan. Jefe and I just arrived in Silverton and we are out-a-here. Weíre gonna pull an all nighter, hopefully finishing around 3, but probably not before unfortunately. Thatís a special interest of my mothers as she is picking me up. Conditions are good, the night looks clear and cold. Its good riding together as weíre pushing each other a little bit Ė probably a lot more here once things get started. (To Jefe) Want to say anything Jefe? Jefe says hi. See yíall later.

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    Another thanks to Alison - great updates and great videos.

    Will anyone be at the finish in Durango? It would be cool to get some pic's of the guys after the race.

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    Standings as of Silverton
    1.Stefan 104:31 Elapsed
    1.Jefe 104:31 Elapsed
    3. Ethan 116:10 Elapsed
    4. Jason 119:30 Elapsed
    5. Fred 123:32 Elapsed
    6. Mathew Lee 142:30 Elapsed
    Last edited by Froman; 07-25-2007 at 02:14 PM.

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    Way to go Stefan and Jefe and all the rest! Amazing efforts out there!!
    There's pretty decent article on the race in the Denver Post sports section this morning. Way bigger expose than I thought would be printed. http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_6446873

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    Jason (Lake City 833AM Tuesday, Elapsed 113:30)

    Hey this is Jason, Iím in Lake City, itís about 830AM in the morning on Tuesday. Got some kinda weird knee issue Ė itís been plaguing me the past day, but I made it into town, Iím getting food, Iím getting ibuprofen, Iím getting 32 chocolate doughnuts, and Iím heading over the pass. Iíll call you in Silverton, thanks.

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    update from Jason Trimm

    Just got a call from Jason in Lake City. He was able to buy some ibuprofen luckily for his sore knee and the unmentionable mentioned before. He finally scored on food and sleep, in Cebolla Creek at a ranch type place, sleeping in a trailer and a loaf of fresh bread and a plate of potroast. He even got to wash his shorts for the first time. He was thankful for a rest from bivying in the pouring rain for so many nights. Sounds like it didn't rain there quite as badly as Crested Butte, as the heavens let loose here last night and i woke up with worry at every thunderbolt. Jason is hoping to be in Silverton in 3-5 hrs, and hopefully Durango Wednesday afternoon.

    Wish I could be videoing everyone on Indian Trail Ridge - such great views, but terrible exposure if there is lighting. We practically ran the ridge last year with a huge storm on the Hermosa side chasing us with bolts. I have to work today and tomorrow morning then i'm heading to Durango around noon from Gunnison if anyone wants a ride.

    thanks everyone for following the race and all the support for the riders!

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Froman
    Will anyone be at the finish in Durango? It would be cool to get some pic's of the guys after the race.
    Why sure. I need to get outside anyway. I'll hobble my a$$ & crutches on over there at 3, look for Stephan's mom and take some pics.

    Don't keep mom waiting guys!

    BTW, anyone know the whereabouts of Matt? I have his cell phone but I won't be here after next Monday.

    Best of luck to all still out on course, it's a gorgeous morning here in Durango with perfect riding conditions.
    Dave

    Anything is possible. The impossible just takes longer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    BTW, anyone know the whereabouts of Matt?
    Matt Lee would have reached the piped spring in segment 15 at about 3pm monday. Expect a call from Lake City in the next few hours.

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    Still now word from Mathew Lee - you guys will hear as soon as I do.

  79. #79
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    Great thread, great race! Thanks everyone who has been posting updates and course recon. Good luck to everyone still hammering it out on course!
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    My Race Summary

    Dropping out at the 4 day mark was not a dissapointment to me. I almost expected it.37000 vertical and about 300 miles adds to my mtb knowledge base.
    My biggest mistake was leaving my water filter at the Buena Vista bike shop, where I finally located a new cartridge for it and got one of those store bought racks that kept my sleeping bag off my knobbie tire. I thought I would save 10 grams by storing my iodine tablets in another container. The tablets melted and ran out onto my broken speedometer. There is a reason for that dark glass bottle.
    I headed out of Princeston Hot Springs with 190 oz shooting for the piped spring{35 miles out} in seg. 15. Saw Matt Lee for the last time 6 miles out. we both should have waited a few hours for the breakfast buffet. Had 48 oz remaining with 7 miles to go and the hottest temps. felt so far. Knowing I had to get fully loaded at the spring was not comforting with my shoulder in agony from an old injury and segments 16 and 17 looming. That is where I called it. Heading up Foose Crk. is the point of no return. I pushed the button and within two hours had a ride home, my water filter back and violated the open container law.
    The splines on the isis BB were also a big factor. So was the fact that I could hardly walk and could eat/drink everything I had in one sitting with 150 miles to resupply. I laid down in the shade and went into a dream zone like no other.
    Segments 1,2and3 were great, slower then planned, only covered 40 miles and did a centery the next day where Matthew and Jason passed at the end. Day three was Breckenridge area to Leadville. Woke up wet, did fine until the rain soaked me thru and I was wishing for disc brakes coming down Tennessee pass in a river. About dusk, soaked, I checked in at Leadville and ordered pizza and ate it in bed like an animal, took a shower with my bike, that was a first.
    Got riding about 10am and there is Matthew Lee shimming his disc brakes again on the road up to half moon. This was the best day of biking yet. The trail to clear creek is great, caught Matt bumming water at clear creek and we rode to B.V. together. He dropped me going up Cottonwood Pass. Avalanche trailhead to the hot springs is singletrack heaven, the final descent on road was forgiving in the dark. Caught Matthew there on the phone and I slept in tall weeds next to an unused bike rack. The diesel truck of channel 2 news woke me at 5am. The locally famous talking head asked me if I knew about the washed out road. I said no and thought to myself, I had much better story then that.
    Expect to see me at the starting line every year for this one.

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    Ethan (Silverton, 11:10AM Tuesday 116:10 elapsed)

    Hey there this is Ethan riding the CTR, its Tuesday, 11:10AM and I’m in Silverton. Things are going well, I’ll give you a ring when I get to Durango.

  82. #82
    Scott in Tucson
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    A message from your friendly neighborhood fun police:

    I noticed we have some folks either talking about following the race or actually doing it. While this may seem harmless, and I may seem like the evil fun police, this really goes against the spirit these events are founded on.

    I'm not suggesting anyone should be DQ'd or that anyone cheated. This is Stefan's race, not mine. But he has decided to follow self-supported rules, and having people leap-frogging the racers, by vehicle, is 100% contrary to the self-supported ideal. Even if nothing is exchanged (no "support" is given), knowing that someone is out there for possible bailout changes everything, especially when it's in the middle of the most serviceless stretch of the trail.

    Does this mean you can't go see someone you know on the route? Nope. That's a bit of a gray area in my mind. It's just a bike race, and banning people from popping in on the route seems pretty extreme. But I think you'll agree there is a big difference between popping over to the route once (unannounced) and following the whole race at points along the way.

    It's great to have more info on the race and better coverage, but let's remember the race is for the racers, not for us internet dweebs.

    [/end fun police communique]

    What a race between Stefan and Jefe! They are certainly the expected front runners, both with mucho experience with this style of racing and with the actual CT, too.

    I just got off the trail myself. Here are a couple pics. One from Georgia Pass, the other near Kokomo. These are taken just a few days before the CTR racers rolled by.

    <img src=https://www.topofusion.com/images/diary/car1.jpg>

    <img src=https://www.topofusion.com/images/diary/car2.jpg>
    Author of TopoFusion GPS Software. MTB+backpacking = bikepacking.net. Ride Diary.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krein
    ...knowing that someone is out there for possible bailout changes everything, especially when it's in the middle of the most serviceless stretch of the trail.

    True.

    In my opinion, it's a personal choice. Do you want to face that double-edged sword, or no?

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    Not knowing

    just so everyone knows, not one racer knew where i was going to turn up, in fact neither did I. so there was no 'bailout' option in their minds. i think it is a fine line, and I tried my best to respect the spirit and rules of the race. I just happened to get a day off.... and was driving home from denver....

  85. #85
    Scott in Tucson
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGSNOW
    just so everyone knows, not one racer knew where i was going to turn up, in fact neither did I. so there was no 'bailout' option in their minds. i think it is a fine line, and I tried my best to respect the spirit and rules of the race. I just happened to get a day off.... and was driving home from denver....
    Fair enough, and thanks for clarifying.

    Just throwing out food for thought, and trying to make sure others don't get the wrong idea about following the race. I don't know the details of what's going on out there this year.
    Author of TopoFusion GPS Software. MTB+backpacking = bikepacking.net. Ride Diary.

  86. #86
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    [QUOTE=Krein]A message from your friendly neighborhood fun police:

    I noticed we have some folks either talking about following the race or actually doing it. While this may seem harmless, and I may seem like the evil fun police, this really goes against the spirit these events are founded on.

    I'm not suggesting anyone should be DQ'd or that anyone cheated. This is Stefan's race, not mine. But he has decided to follow self-supported rules, and having people leap-frogging the racers, by vehicle, is 100% contrary to the self-supported ideal. Even if nothing is exchanged (no "support" is given), knowing that someone is out there for possible bailout changes everything, especially when it's in the middle of the most serviceless stretch of the trail."

    Damn the technology. I here where your coming from, but its really cool to see how its going from my couch in Austin TX. That has nothing to do with the spirit of the race.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krein
    [/end fun police communique]
    No, Scott, actually you don't sound like the fun police. You sound like someone that has mucho experience with this sort of thing and that is actually speaking from a rational point of view. I was/am pretty happy to see your thoughts pop up on this.

    I'd much, much rather read about the racers' on-course experiences in their words, after the fact than get updates along the way. And I know that we all think differently, but if I were racing this event, I'd be more than a little bit bummed to see the same person out there repeatedly. Call me a hermit or a grump, but I go to the races and the mountains for the mountains and the races, not to see other people and definitely not to see the same person repeatedly.

    Oh yeah--nice pics. Who's the dweeb with the bag o' Fritos on his rack?!

    And for those that are following along, here's two shots of the bump that separates Lake City from Silverton.

    MC
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krein
    I noticed we have some folks either talking about following the race or actually doing it.
    I talked about my expierence doing the race. Times for segments, watering holes, ect.
    The spirit of these races is hush hush on logistics, knowledge is first hand only. My race summary would be considered support or going against what these races were founded on? If I make the race easier on paper for someone, what`s the big deal?

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    Enough with the pics! You're teasing me and making me think bad, evil thoughts! Like emailing my boss and saying, "I'm going to need several weeks off next summer!"
    _______
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  90. #90
    Scott in Tucson
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    Quote Originally Posted by consumerbydesign
    I talked about my expierence doing the race. Times for segments, watering holes, ect.
    All up to you what you want to reveal. My lengthy post mortem writeups have certainly revealed much about the AZT, GLR, GDR, and even the CT.

    Quote Originally Posted by consumerbydesign
    The spirit of these races is hush hush on logistics, knowledge is first hand only.
    Don't confuse the personalities of certain racers with the 'spirit' of the race. To my knowledge, no one has ever discouraged writeups as any form of 'support.' In fact, Mike just chimed in that he enjoys them...

    But some choose not to reveal certain hard earned infos. It's a personal choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by consumerbydesign
    My race summary would be considered support or going against what these races were founded on? If I make the race easier on paper for someone, what`s the big deal?
    I'm not sure where you're getting that from. I was talking about people physically following the race, not reporting about it.

    Congrats on your ride out there; it sounds like you learned quite a bit. I think I actually saw you on your way to Avalanche CG on Sunday PM. By the time we got the truck turned around you were already on the trail. We then moved further down the trail just in time for Matt Lee to pop out of the trees. We chatted with him a bit as it began to downpour (big surprise), then he was off into the storm.
    Author of TopoFusion GPS Software. MTB+backpacking = bikepacking.net. Ride Diary.

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    Someone posted the link to the Denver Post article earlier.

    Here's the Post's blog with bios (and pictures) of the riders.

    http://blogs.denverpost.com/sports/2...ling-pioneers/

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    Jason (Silverton 230PM Tuesday Ė Elapsed 119:30)

    Hey this is Jason, its 230PM, I just got into Silverton. Iíve really been suffering the past 30 hoursÖManÖIíve got a half gallon of chocolate milk, some food and a candy necklace, headed up to Molas Pass. Looks pretty dark up there. Iím going to try and get in by 3PM tomorrow and break the six day mark, but Iím not sure, itís probably going to be another bivy in the rain. Keep those good thoughts coming.

  93. #93
    Scott in Tucson
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    By the time we got the truck turned around you were already on the trail. We then moved further down the trail just in time for Matt Lee to pop out of the trees. We chatted with him a bit as it began to downpour (big surprise), then he was off into the storm.
    Guess I should clarify that we just happened to be heading over Cottonwood Pass on our way back from Gunnison. We weren't thinking about the race at all, and were surprised to see Dan (I think) and Matt Lee right by the road. So we stopped and said hello.
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  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krein
    Guess I should clarify that we just happened to be heading over Cottonwood Pass on our way back from Gunnison. We weren't thinking about the race at all, and were surprised to see Dan (I think) and Matt Lee right by the road. So we stopped and said hello.
    Sure Scott--everyone knows you were just 'passing through'. And those Matt Lee and Tinker Juarez posters on your bedroom ceiling? Those were probably left there by the previous renters, right?

    Riiiiiiiight.



    MC

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    those are 2 of the best shots i have viewed by mikesee.
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  96. #96
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    That 5 day barrier is creeping up.......

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    Exactly. I've been pretty glued to this race too. After today's Tour news, this is turning into my big race to watch. I heard a rumor that Trimm got a full blood transfusion of pure chocolate milk.

    And Mike, I don't know about you, but I constantly see a girl in the distance, floating over the trail when I'm in the midst of an endurance race. She may not be real, but whatever...

    -s

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    Damn the technology. I here where your coming from, but its really cool to see how its going from my couch in Austin TX. That has nothing to do with the spirit of the race.
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  98. #98
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    As someone who is ready to take the leap into multi-day races/rides, I find the write-ups from other racers immensely valuable. I try and glean every bit of information from them that I can. I look over pictures of the bikes and try and get ideas from those too.

    But none of it is as good as old fashioned experience.

    I love the way these races get "broadcasted" to us, but last year there was a fun sense of anticipation while we waited for riders to get back into the real world. Sort of like waiting for a long lost friend to walk through a door way...

    I think the spirit of the race is pretty simple. MC has summed it up numerous times with the simple phrase, "take what you need or do without."

    When we are spectators, we have to remember that many of these racers are out there to be alone, to test themselves against the elements and any limitations that they alone possess. We can take that same sentiment of "take what you need..." What do we really need as spectators? What can we do without as we watch and read and cheer?

    But I will admit, I love the call ins, I enjoyed the videos, I like seeing the look in racers eyes after 3 or 4 days out on the trail. You can see the fatigue, the joy, the determination. I have experienced that look, and it is a terrible and wonderful place to be.
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  99. #99
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    I think the spirit of the race is pretty simple. MC has summed it up numerous times with the simple phrase, "take what you need or do without."

    When we are spectators, we have to remember that many of these racers are out there to be alone, to test themselves against the elements and any limitations that they alone possess. We can take that same sentiment of "take what you need..." What do we really need as spectators? What can we do without as we watch and read and cheer?



    When I heard about this race I must say that hotels and bike shops weren't part of what I invisioned(I'm at the Starbucks in Georgetown). I don't see how a "roving reporter" is any worse than those examples.
    They all need a GPS senser so we can track them!

  100. #100
    Scott in Tucson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtc
    When I heard about this race I must say that hotels and bike shops weren't part of what I invisioned(I'm at the Starbucks in Georgetown). I don't see how a "roving reporter" is any worse than those examples.
    A truly neutral, roving reporter is a different issue. I think that's another gray area. It does affect the racer's experience, but can be justified from some angles. Having your 'significant other' following the route at different points on the race, even if that SO is reporting back on the internet, is what we're talking about.

    A reporter from the Denver Post is not likely to give you a ride or be tempted to give you extra food. But your SO, or even a good friend who happens to be there, might be.

    If hotels and bike shops are not OK, why is a grocery store? Should racers have to carry all food and water the entire time? The point is all those services are available to the solo, independent racer. Not everyone has a SO with extra days off and the willingness to wait around for you to cross the next road.

    They all need a GPS senser so we can track them!
    It's been suggested before.

    OK, where are Jefe and Stefan?! From the look of the radar, it was pretty brutal out there this afternoon.

    ....
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    You go guys

    I ran into a couple of racers and even ate with one- Mark I believe- in Leadville. I rode a 55 mile section to get a taste and all I can say is you guys are stout. Congrats to all who finish.

  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krein

    A reporter from the Denver Post is not likely to give you a ride or be tempted to give you extra food. But your SO, or even a good friend who happens to be there, might be.

    It all comes down to the racer's integrity, anyway. Anything else is skirting the issue.

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    Fred (Silverton 6:28PM Tuesday, Elapsed 123:32)

    Hello, this is CTR racer Fred, Iím in Silverton finally. Rolled in here a half hour or an hour ago, something like that. Iím trying to decide whether Iím just gonna eat some food and ride out tonight like it seems everyone else did today or Iíd kinda like to just stay and warm up and gather myself up for tomorrow. So at any rate next time I call itíll probably be from Durango and Iíll know then better what I did. Bye.

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    Still no word from any of the racers past Silverton. I will post as soon as I hear.

  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by ionsmuse
    It all comes down to the racer's integrity, anyway. Anything else is skirting the issue.

    Not sure adding rules changes anything but mucking up the issue .... I agree with Dave

    You bring up good points..... However those of us without a S/O where wondering if we/i ran into a trail fairy whats the rule for that Self supported or not?
    Read my BLOG!

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    Seems to me the only people remotely qualified to object to a "roving reporter" would be tha actual racers themselves. From what I have seen on You Tube, none of them seem to mind.

    Thanks, Alison! Nice work there. I'm a friend of Jefe's, and it's great to "follow" the race from my comfy chair. Jefe looked and sounded just like Jefe in your interview. What an amazing group of athletes!

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    Not ok

    Quote Originally Posted by SlowerThenSnot

    You bring up good points..... However those of us without a S/O where wondering if we/i ran into a trail fairy whats the rule for that Self supported or not?
    Jack him in his fairy netherregions, take his pogey bait and toss everthing in a LNT forest service recepticle or as far off trail as etiquete allows. Unload like canned cheese at 12000'...

    My 2cents

    dp

  108. #108
    Scott in Tucson
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    Quote Originally Posted by ionsmuse
    It all comes down to the racer's integrity, anyway. Anything else is skirting the issue.
    I agree to the extent of whether or not someone would *take* something from a race-following friend.

    But that's not the point, and if anything, you are skirting the issue. I'm not adding a "new rule." The point is that having someone that you know following the race is against the rules, even if they provide no support when you actually see them.

    These are wilderness, solo races, people. Seeing your SO every 100 miles, with a car ready to rescue you is hardly the spirit of this kind of thing. I don't know Alison, and don't know the details of her 'following' of the race. I don't really care and it seems pretty benign. I just don't want to see things get out of hand in the future, in this race or others.

    As Stefan said:

    If anything is unclear, Griebel said, imagine a thousand riders behind you doing the same thing for years to come. "Think long-term," he said, instilling the notion that these riders are blazing a trail that could become a legendary race.
    What if 75 people show up, all with SO's following the race by vehicle? We'll have great coverage here on MTBR, and will have lost much of the adventure and rugged individualism that drew us to create these events in the first place.

    Maybe Stefan will get on here, after slip sliding his way into Durango, and decide this kind of thing is OK for the CTR. Somehow I doubt it, since in every other decision he has followed what Mike (and others) have laid out in the GDR / GLR rules.
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  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krein

    What if 75 people show up, all with SO's following the race by vehicle? We'll have great coverage here on MTBR, and will have lost much of the adventure and rugged individualism that drew us to create these events in the first place.

    Indeed. No arguments there. My point is this: how are you going to "enforce" the above hypothetical from (or when it) taking place? Threaten to DQ anyone who does so, or trust that the vast majority of participants will agree and comply of their own accord. I may be marching to my own drummer on this one, but the former would seem to contradict the spirit of these endeavors even as it holds tight to the line of the rules. As a disclaimer, it's been a while since I actually read the GLR/GDR guidelines, and am going more from my interpretation of the zeitgeist than a strict reading. As Foucault said, "What is an author?"

    To be less obtuse, every event is bound to evolve it's own idiosyncratic rules. This year I've borne witness and/or heard of several transgression at several different events. I may have felt differently in different circumstances, but my reaction has been "who cares". One cheapens one's own experience by so doing, not mine. Any good endeavor is going to outgrow any one person, anyway.

    Of course, the record keeper of the moment is stuck with a somewhat different question..

  110. #110
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    First 2 finishers pics

    Jefe rolled into the trailhead about 8:28 pm. My camera uterly failed to get good shots of him, doh! He was lively, alert, and of course glad to be done. In terms of the climbing, he kept saying something like "it just never ended!" He and Stephan were together at the beginning of the final long descent, but Jefe's mad downhill skills took over. All I got of him was his feet and a dirty bike. Rohloff hub worked a charm in the wet grimy conditions and custom frame bags had the bike balance dialed. Nice setup for sure.



    Stephan came in about 20 minutes later, saying something about seeing his life flash before his eyes several times...he was on auto-pilot. His hands were done - his dad tortured him a bit by handing him an unopened beer. Everyone enjoyed his moms cookies (thanks Sue!), even Jefe despite a wheat alergy. "I'm gonna feel like sh!t anyway for the next week, might as well eat some cookies."



    Inspiring ride by these guys in monsoon conditions. Kudos gents!
    Dave

    Anything is possible. The impossible just takes longer.

    2 Epic

  111. #111
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    It might just be one of the ideosyncrocies (sp?) of the CTR. Colorado is a populated state with lots of roads and it's not hard to get around the course. I would argue that the CTR...while no doubt a burly singletrack with tons of really "out there" sections, is less of a wilderness experience than some of these events, simply given the small scope of the total area covered and the fact that your hitting some significant towns along the way. Bottom line...there are only a few sections of the CTR where you are seriously fooked if you have a mechanical/injury short of a broken femur or a lightning strike. Even on the remote section between Lake City and Silverton, it wouldn't be that hard to drop off the ridge to the big lake and roll back into Lake City to bail out.

    Personally, I think the hotel thing is kind of lame. You should be camping out there at least...that's a much bigger deal than the S.O. thing and definitely gives an advantage to more financially secure riders.

    I don't think this is such an issue in the GDR...what person is going to follow someone for 15-25 days? Not an issue at all in the Iditasport. I don't know much about the Arizona Trail and it's accessibility to roads.

    Want a true solo Wilderness adventure...go to an area with no roads, Roman Dial hell-biking style.

  112. #112
    Scott in Tucson
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    Jefe rolled into the trailhead about 8:28 pm.

    Stephan came in about 20 minutes later, saying something about seeing his life flash before his eyes several times...he was on auto-pilot.
    Wow, what a stunning finish -- having a 5 day race come down to a slippery downhill race with all systems (legs, arms, etc) exhausted. Epic.

    Well done Jefe and Stefan on a hard fought race. This is going to be a good one to read about.

    Thanks for the finish line report and pics Dave!
    Author of TopoFusion GPS Software. MTB+backpacking = bikepacking.net. Ride Diary.

  113. #113
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    A real issue for the CTR, however...

    ..potential closure of a large segment of the Colorado Trail to bikes. Wilderness designation. I'm a big fan of Wilderness, but unless there is a direct development/motorized/mining threat in this particular area, I have to question why. The talk is about closing the CDT/CT from Georgia Pass to Kokomo Pass. I know of other areas in question too.

    http://imba.com/news/action_alerts/0...ide_trail.html

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    Holy crap! Sweetness. Jefe, it should be noted, was on a singlespeed. That's pretty amazing given the vertical on this trail and never ending series of ups-and-downs. Nice job gentlemen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krein
    Wow, what a stunning finish -- having a 5 day race come down to a slippery downhill race with all systems (legs, arms, etc) exhausted. Epic.

    Well done Jefe and Stefan on a hard fought race. This is going to be a good one to read about.

    Thanks for the finish line report and pics Dave!

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    20 minutes apart!!!


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    Good job!

    Wowee! What a mind blowing ride, Stefan and Jefe. Mucho Congrats!

    New rules proposal...no stores, no hotels, but rather catch your own fish or wrestle a deer to get food

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    Wow, great race. That picture is how Stefan looked after he did the CT last year. Hopefully, his mom's cookies will perk him (and everyone else) back up.

  118. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    ...we have to remember that many of these racers are out there to be alone, to test themselves against the elements and any limitations that they alone possess.
    Agreed!

    Yet, it sounds like Stefan and Jefe are practically riding buddies, far from alone. Stefan even mentions in his call in that riding together is pushing each of them harder. Is that fair to the other riders that were either unable to latch on or choose a different approach?

    At the pre-race meeting it was asked if drafting was ok. The racers decided that drafting was not ok but riding together was. I'm not sure what really happens between call ins, perhaps they separate by several hundred yards or even a half mile but keep each other in sight, or perhaps they ride with about 3 bike lengths apart (USAT drafting zone rules) and chat with each other, I don't know.

    I would argue, from the little experience I have in adventure racing, that having someone to ride with helps a lot more than seeing others on the trail or at trail junctions, even if you know they are out there waiting for you.

    Of course the counter argument may well be that neither Stefan nor Jefe have a choice but to ride together because neither wants to hold back for the sake of being alone at the risk of placing second. I'm sure they both kept tabs on the other riders early in the race and know they are the front riders.

    I don't know the answers, but thought this might make good food for thought. Talking these issues through is the best way to progress, IMO.

    Cheers,
    Chris Piper

  119. #119
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    if you wanna be alone

    Quote Originally Posted by ionsmuse
    Indeed. No arguments there. My point is this: how are you going to "enforce" the above hypothetical from (or when it) taking place? Threaten to DQ anyone who does so, or trust that the vast majority of participants will agree and comply of their own accord. I may be marching to my own drummer on this one, but the former would seem to contradict the spirit of these endeavors even as it holds tight to the line of the rules. As a disclaimer, it's been a while since I actually read the GLR/GDR guidelines, and am going more from my interpretation of the zeitgeist than a strict reading. As Foucault said, "What is an author?"

    To be less obtuse, every event is bound to evolve it's own idiosyncratic rules. This year I've borne witness and/or heard of several transgression at several different events. I may have felt differently in different circumstances, but my reaction has been "who cares". One cheapens one's own experience by so doing, not mine. Any good endeavor is going to outgrow any one person, anyway.

    Of course, the record keeper of the moment is stuck with a somewhat different question..
    How about a solo tt at a diffrent time of year? thern you wont see any s/o's

    if you need to have the carrot of other racers then maybe you well run into those who well skirt the rules???
    Read my BLOG!

    just a guy who loves bikes and exploring

  120. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    Stephan came in about 20 minutes later, saying something about seeing his life flash before his eyes several times...he was on auto-pilot. His hands were done - his dad tortured him a bit by handing him an unopened beer. Everyone enjoyed his moms cookies (thanks Sue!), even Jefe despite a wheat alergy. "I'm gonna feel like sh!t anyway for the next week, might as well eat some cookies."
    .

    Thanks hairball for being there at the end and reporting. Great to see these folks finish safe and great to see such a close race. I wish the same for the rest of the field.

    Way to go Jefe!

    Way to go Stefan, and I'll have your truck ready when you arrive in Denver. After you get re-acquainted with your wife, let's go have beers at the Sun.

    I'm without words - 5 days.

    Cheers,
    Chris Piper

  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pluto Pilot
    Holy crap! Sweetness. Jefe, it should be noted, was on a singlespeed. That's pretty amazing given the vertical on this trail and never ending series of ups-and-downs. Nice job gentlemen.

    Jefe had a rolloff.... so it looks to be a ss but really has 14 hiding
    Read my BLOG!

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  122. #122
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    i have to wonder

    Quote Originally Posted by Pluto Pilot
    ..potential closure of a large segment of the Colorado Trail to bikes. Wilderness designation. I'm a big fan of Wilderness, but unless there is a direct development/motorized/mining threat in this particular area, I have to question why. The talk is about closing the CDT/CT from Georgia Pass to Kokomo Pass. I know of other areas in question too.

    http://imba.com/news/action_alerts/0...ide_trail.html

    whats the big deal when there are already roads and trails....?

    If there isn't i'm all for keeping it roadless.... however i think people get stuck in the mindset of keeping things the same and nature is always changing how are we to know whats best???
    Read my BLOG!

    just a guy who loves bikes and exploring

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    Stefan and Jefe (Finish 957PM Tuesday, Unofficial elapsed time 126:44)

    Yo, this is Stefan, Jefe and I finished the Colorado Trail Race. He (Jefe) finished 20 minutes in front of me because he is a Ė he screams down hills and I canít even hold onto my handlebars anymore. I had more near death experiences in the last 10 miles than the first 500. That thing is a hell-of-a hard race, is good. Tired, neither of us have slept since Sunday night, well I slept for like 8 minutes today or 30 minutes or something. Anyway, it was a good race, weíre beat, cooked, can barely walk and were gonna go get a beer in Durango with my parents, try to stay awake (says something), see ya.

  124. #124
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    Mathew Lee (Lake City Tuesday 1008PM, 127:08 elapsed)

    Hey MTBcast, itís Mathew Lee in Lake City, CO. Just got off the two day serviceless stretch. Starving, etc, crushed, not my favorite section Ė the one across Sergeants Mesa, but part of the trail. Anyway, its on to Cinnamon Pass in the morning, and then Durango, so lookiní forward to wraping things up Ė its been gorgeous, rain every day, so I guess thatís the way it goes in Colorado in August. Alright, thanks, bye.

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    Jefe (Durango, post finish, 125:30 unofficial elapsed)

    Hello MTBcast, this is Jefe, sorry it took me so long for this phonecall. I have finished the Grand Loop, er not the Grand Loop, oh my god thatís too funny, I have finished the Colorado Trail Race and just wanted to let you know I came in at about 830PM this evening, making it about 5 days and 5.5 hours. As anybody would probably expect Iím pretty whipped, but Iím doing OK, nothing too major, a little knee problem here and there, sore back, feet swelling, you know, that kinda stuff going on. Really really wet, really really cold, definitely got very frustrated a few times, but other than that it was a pretty fun trip, and who knows, I might come back and do it again next year. Thanks to all those who have been monitoring and keeping everything updated, and I think thatís pretty cool, bye.

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    Mark (Tuesday, 11:27PM)

    Hey its Mark, its Tuesday night, got to the Monarch Lodge at 1045PM, Iím pretty tired. Gonna head out tomorrow, try to make it half way to Lake City or Silverton, and then do the other half next morning. Iím trying to get in to Silverton tomorrow night, (says something) two nights, gonna be a tough run but I think I can pull it off. I will get back to you guys then, have a good one.

  127. #127
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    CTR Finish Results - UNOFFICIAL
    1. Jefe 125:30 elapsed
    2. Stefan 125:50 elapsed
    3. Ethan 144:17 elapsed
    4. Jason 148:51 elapsed
    5. Fred 165:55 elapsed
    6. Mathew 173:15 elapsed
    Last edited by Froman; 07-28-2007 at 08:02 AM.

  128. #128
    Scott in Tucson
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowerThenSnot
    How about a solo tt at a diffrent time of year? thern you wont see any s/o's

    if you need to have the carrot of other racers then maybe you well run into those who well skirt the rules???
    That's not the issue, just an additional point Mike brought up -- that some might not want to see folks out there. In reality, most probably would (gives them some sense of security).

    It clearly creates an advantage, and that's (yet another) reason it isn't allowed. If my SO is around every corner I could push the limits of food, water or bivy gear, hoping to not rely on the SO, but they are there "just in case." This is hardly fair and hardly within the limits of the "on your own" part of these races. It can also be a psychological advantage, a boost, to see someone cheering you on at every corner.
    Author of TopoFusion GPS Software. MTB+backpacking = bikepacking.net. Ride Diary.

  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by ionsmuse
    Indeed. No arguments there. My point is this: how are you going to "enforce" the above hypothetical from (or when it) taking place? Threaten to DQ anyone who does so, or trust that the vast majority of participants will agree and comply of their own accord.
    I see your point, but if you follow it to its logical conclusion, why do we have rules at all? We can't enforce them, and the only thing we have is to threaten to DQ, right?

    This is a rule (no "crews") that needs to be there, and whether or not it's enforceable is irrelevant. I'd actually argue that it's much more enforceable than many of the other GDR/GLR rules. Other racers will absolutely see someone's crew, probably talk to them, and know what they are doing.

    Of course, the record keeper of the moment is stuck with a somewhat different question..
    Yes. It's easy to sit in the peanut gallery and say "what's the big deal?".

    BTW, from the GLR page:

    Many participants have attempted to circumvent the "on your own" part of this ride by having a sag vehicle waiting for them "just in case" at road crossings. This is NOT permitted.

    This event is one of the last true, pure, wilderness, on-your-own events left. It is that way BY DESIGN. It is possible to ride this entire route over 3-4 days and only see a smattering of vehicles, if any at all. Having a crew out there detracts from the wilderness experience for other riders, wastes fuel, creates bad feelings (from your crew, who would much rather be riding their bikes than sitting in a car and waiting for your stinky, whiny self to show up) and is 100% contrary to the spirit of the event.

    One final word about crews: accepting anything from (or giving anything to) a crew is grounds for banishment from future events. Yes, we're serious about this. Come to the ride and play by the rules, or wait until you're ready. 'Nuff said.
    This isn't new.
    Last edited by Krein; 07-25-2007 at 07:52 AM.
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    incredible riding! what bike is jefe branham on? thats one *short* headtubed 29"er!
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  131. #131
    Scott in Tucson
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    Chris,

    Quote Originally Posted by pipes
    Is that fair to the other riders that were either unable to latch on or choose a different approach?
    Yes, it is fair. If they wanted to ride with, Stefan, for example, all they had to do was ride with him. Everyone has the same opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by pipes
    I would argue, from the little experience I have in adventure racing, that having someone to ride with helps a lot more than seeing others on the trail or at trail junctions, even if you know they are out there waiting for you.
    That may or may not be true, but there's really no way around it. This is a race, not a solo TT, and there's no fair way to regulate how to not allow riding with another racer.

    I still think there is something fundamentally different about a crew with a vehicle, rather than a competitor, who is in the same boat as you (carrying minimal gear/food/water). Other riders may be good at motivating you, but they aren't nearly as equipped to bail you out.

    Quote Originally Posted by pipes
    I don't know the answers, but thought this might make good food for thought. Talking these issues through is the best way to progress, IMO.
    Agreed. Thanks for the thoughtful comments and for taking the time to carefully read what's been written thus far.
    Author of TopoFusion GPS Software. MTB+backpacking = bikepacking.net. Ride Diary.

  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by dRjOn
    incredible riding! what bike is jefe branham on? thats one *short* headtubed 29"er!
    He's rocking a Black sheep
    Read my BLOG!

    just a guy who loves bikes and exploring

  133. #133
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    black sheep - seems to be ever increasingly the ride of choice of the endurance racer doesnt it? sweet bike...also yours, and another guy racing? jim ishman? hope you get a fork (and hip ) sorted soon!

    james is very kindly helping us out w race sponsor ship for the sswc this year: so another will join the ranks in the near future...
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  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jefe
    . Thanks to all those who have been monitoring and keeping everything updated, and I think thatís pretty cool, bye.
    The winners thoughts.

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    Oh Yes

    Hello there everyone, I am sitting in Carver in durango digesting my second breakfast and letting the past few days settle in. Wow what a ride, low low lows, and amazing highs. So much singletrack and gorgeous sights, alot of rain and nasty cold nights on the trail. I will give more input soon but for now good luck to the rest out there and thanks for all you cared enough to follow the race. And by the way next year I am bringing a sleeping bag! Peace Jefe

  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by wookieone
    Hello there everyone, I am sitting in Carver in durango digesting my second breakfast and letting the past few days settle in. Wow what a ride, low low lows, and amazing highs. So much singletrack and gorgeous sights, alot of rain and nasty cold nights on the trail. I will give more input soon but for now good luck to the rest out there and thanks for all you cared enough to follow the race. And by the way next year I am bringing a sleeping bag! Peace Jefe
    PM me so I can send yah something =)
    Read my BLOG!

    just a guy who loves bikes and exploring

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    Mathew Lee (Silverton 129PM Wednesday, 142:30 elapsed)

    Hey Mathew Lee here, it’s about 1PM and I almost forgot that Silverton was a mandatory call in location. I’m headed up to ride the final leg to Durango, I hear its pretty sweet riding. Cinnamon Pass was beautiful this morning, it’s definitely for mountain goats only. It looks like rain again today, and about the only thing the monsoons are good for is the humidity. It keeps my skin moist, my lips from chapping, and I almost never have a bad hair day during the race. Anyway, the trail has been awesome, I stayed away from night riding so I got to take it all in. I’ll definitely be back for another shot on this one. Ok, call you from Durango.

  138. #138
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    Audio is up! It's a full show today. Depending on when calls come in tonight I may do another update show.
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    Jason (Finish, 148:51 elapsed)

    Hi this is Jason, I got into the junction creek trailhead at 751PM on Wednesday, and Iíve got Ethan here.

    Ethan (Finish, 144:17 elapsed)

    Hey this is Ethan, I pulled into junction creek at 317PM. Cool, see ya.

  140. #140
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    Rules, rules, rules

    Hello there everyone, now that I am back home and able to go over the past few days worth of race coverage and debate i am now putting in my two cents. I have always tried to pay strict attention to the self supported rules that have been generally adopted for these races. I have been doing big epic solo rides through the backcountry for years and as a strong individual I have always done them in this self supported style, in fact i hardly ever went into a town for anything.
    But back to the CTR and the rules, i have always thought it odd that one can go into town, get a hotel, order a pizza, go to a bike shop and this is all Kosher under the rules. When i set out on this adventure I planned to sleep out every night, and get almost all my food from PO mail drops. I brought enough bike repair **** to handle almost any reasonable issue, i am an able mechanic as well. Not to diss anyones ride but it seems weird to me that one can basically carry enough food and water to get from town to town and sleep in a hotel and eat dinner food and visit bike shops for gear. And then there is the vague rule about accepting unplanned support. Some where there was mention of MikeC himself getting some clif bars along the GDR from Scott m, who was touring the whole thing. I am not calling anyone out but it seems there are alot of weird gray areas out there that should be clarified or changed to stick to the spirit of these events, I don't claim to know the answers but we all know the questions. Anyways, I am oh so glad to be home and full and warm, and amazed at the level of attention payed to this ride, and yes I am coming back next year! Peace Jefe

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    Here's an idea for thought. I haven't thought this through so don't shoot me as this is largely thinking out loud.

    Perhaps we could setup a panel or board. I know, I know, but stay with the thought process then feel free to shoot it full of holes. Say a panel of past racers or winners, I dunno, gets together to determine the rules. A group of say 5 or so would be diverse enough to hash out the ins and outs of the rules as well as examine the spirit in them and the viability of them.
    I realize this all sounds incredibly "organized" and takes some of the spirit away from the races. However, as these races gain popularity such structure may prove necessary. I think it's better to get it under control now than having some commercial entity come along, promote a similar race, with a similar name, and start injecting far more into the race than what we're seeing now. (24 Hours anyone!?).

    That's my suggestion but again, I'm kind of free-thinking here and there may bigger issues at work.
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  142. #142
    Scott in Tucson
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    Hey Jefe,

    Congrats on the strong finish, my friend. Way to set the bar high.

    Quote Originally Posted by wookieone
    Hello there everyone, now that I am back home and able to go over the past few days worth of race coverage and debate i am now putting in my two cents. I have always tried to pay strict attention to the self supported rules that have been generally adopted for these races. I have been doing big epic solo rides through the backcountry for years and as a strong individual I have always done them in this self supported style, in fact i hardly ever went into a town for anything.
    I too have some years of experience doing solo rides, as well as quite a few days bike tourin'. Obviously I've become pretty strict about the self-support stuff, as well.

    But back to the CTR and the rules, i have always thought it odd that one can go into town, get a hotel, order a pizza, go to a bike shop and this is all Kosher under the rules. When i set out on this adventure I planned to sleep out every night, and get almost all my food from PO mail drops. I brought enough bike repair **** to handle almost any reasonable issue, i am an able mechanic as well. Not to diss anyones ride but it seems weird to me that one can basically carry enough food and water to get from town to town and sleep in a hotel and eat dinner food and visit bike shops for gear.
    It's funny, because my viewpoint is pretty much the opposite. It's always seemed strange to me that it's OK to put care packages together before the ride and mail them to yourself in PO's along the way. It's just not something I've done, or would really think of doing for a bike ride.

    Whereas popping into town and ordering a pizza feels completely natural to me. Working hard to get into town so you can eat a big meal is part of the fun of bike touring to me.

    I see your point about hotels, though. It does change the character of the ride, for sure. Only way to get around it is to have races that have no towns on the route, like the GLR. One of the (few) appealing aspects of the GLR is that it's fairly pure that way.

    And then there is the vague rule about accepting unplanned support. Some where there was mention of MikeC himself getting some clif bars along the GDR from Scott m, who was touring the whole thing. I am not calling anyone out but it seems there are alot of weird gray areas out there that should be clarified or changed to stick to the spirit of these events, I don't claim to know the answers but we all know the questions. Anyways, I am oh so glad to be home and full and warm, and amazed at the level of attention payed to this ride, and yes I am coming back next year! Peace Jefe
    Agreed, the unplanned support thing needs to be clarified and put into words. For the record, I didn't know Mike during the first GDR (and only vaguely knew what the race was while we were out there touring it).

    Scott
    Author of TopoFusion GPS Software. MTB+backpacking = bikepacking.net. Ride Diary.

  143. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by wookieone
    Hello there everyone, now that I am back home and able to go over the past few days worth of race coverage and debate i am now putting in my two cents. I have always tried to pay strict attention to the self supported rules that have been generally adopted for these races. I have been doing big epic solo rides through the backcountry for years and as a strong individual I have always done them in this self supported style, in fact i hardly ever went into a town for anything.
    But back to the CTR and the rules, i have always thought it odd that one can go into town, get a hotel, order a pizza, go to a bike shop and this is all Kosher under the rules. When i set out on this adventure I planned to sleep out every night, and get almost all my food from PO mail drops. I brought enough bike repair **** to handle almost any reasonable issue, i am an able mechanic as well. Not to diss anyones ride but it seems weird to me that one can basically carry enough food and water to get from town to town and sleep in a hotel and eat dinner food and visit bike shops for gear. And then there is the vague rule about accepting unplanned support. Some where there was mention of MikeC himself getting some clif bars along the GDR from Scott m, who was touring the whole thing. I am not calling anyone out but it seems there are alot of weird gray areas out there that should be clarified or changed to stick to the spirit of these events, I don't claim to know the answers but we all know the questions. Anyways, I am oh so glad to be home and full and warm, and amazed at the level of attention payed to this ride, and yes I am coming back next year! Peace Jefe
    Rules, acknowledge the way we did the race. The self supported rules work the best, you prove that. Allowing services in a self supported race seems funny but kept me going.
    There will be people that just show up without enough knowledge. If they acknowledge the level of support, great. I would like to see some fully supported rider {on another date} see if they can beat your time, what the heck.
    Maybe a filtered water only rule would cut the need for towns and hoses and preserve the ride for the future.
    With more knowledge I will be trying for less support, but then again it would be fun to do this fully supported too. Maybe Lance or Floyd will go for your record.
    Nice job to you and the rest, hope to see you again with some better gear. Dan.

  144. #144
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    Fred (Finished, 165:55 elapsed)

    Hey there this is Fred, finished the Colorado Trail today at 12:55PM Ė I guess 6 days, 21 hours, 55 minutes, but anyway, waited out a lightning storm last night or I would have finished then, but came in this morning and got to jump in the creek at the end and now its done. Bye.

  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Froman
    Fred (Finished, 165:55 elapsed)

    Hey there this is Fred, finished the Colorado Trail today at 12:55PM Ė I guess 6 days, 21 hours, 55 minutes, but anyway, waited out a lightning storm last night or I would have finished then, but came in this morning and got to jump in the creek at the end and now its done. Bye.


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    Matthew Lee Video Link

    Got lucky again - ran into Matthew Lee in Silverton at 1:45 yesterday.
    Great video with his thoughts on the race. Hope he finishes soon! Alison

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1Se4Pmfo6w

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    Video link of Ethan's Finish

    Ethan's Finish - 3:17pm on Wednesday - 6hrs and 17 minutes

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR7rXZ1DHDU

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    Jason and Ethan at the finish

    Congrads Racers! Here is a photo of jason and ethan at the official sign/finish of the Colorado Trail in Durango!
    Attached Images Attached Images

  149. #149
    Just go ride!
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    Kankles bo-bankles...

    What an epic, epic ride. Can you say *kankles*? I've never had 'em like this before! My feet look sorta like balloons - you know, when Shrek and Fiona blow up the frog and snake into balloon animals. It looks like they did that to my feet, and I just keep waiting for them to pop and go fizzling and flying off into the sky! Weather is king in this race, and I guess having cold, wet feet for 5 days in a row just isn't natural...

    To all the finishers thus far - huge congratulations! This thing is fantastic and insanely challenging, and I am uber impressed with the percentage that have finished. I would not have guessed nearly so many! It looks like Matthew should be done shortly too, and hopefully we'll hear from Mark soon as well.

    Fred, I could see the lightning storm you were waiting out from my parent's house in Dolores. Flashes every 30 seconds for hours on end! I wonder what it's like up on Indian Trail Ridge when there's not thunder and lightning!? Does that ever happen? Or hail! Jefe and I got pounded by about 2" of hail just before a weather window opened up allowing us to cross the high point.

    I'm newly back in cyberspace (geez dial-up hurts!), and haven't had a chance to form some coherent writings with regards to the rest of this thread, but I will tomorrow. For now, it's time to head to a buddy's house for Fish Tacos and Tequila!!!

    But first, a public thank you to Froman, Pipes, jav1231 and AGSNOW for taking time out of their busy lives to make us racers feel appreciated. Also, thanks everyone for following along and sending good vibes out to those of us on the trail!
    The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -TJ

  150. #150
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    Matthew Lee in DGO

    Hey y'all,

    Just talked to Matt, he finished sometime yesterday (Thursday) and thought y'all might like to know. Don't know what time he got in but he's wasting no time - he's got a party and a date for tonight.

    What a mover and shaker!
    Dave

    Anything is possible. The impossible just takes longer.

    2 Epic

  151. #151
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    Yeah I put the audio up late last night. Matt's it there.
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  152. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by jav1231
    Yeah I put the audio up late last night. Matt's it there.
    Cool, thanks Joe. I forgot to check the audio, doh!
    Dave

    Anything is possible. The impossible just takes longer.

    2 Epic

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    Thanks to all

    Congradulations to all the finishers, what an amazing ride. The fact that half the field finished is quite amazing. The conditions were challenging to say the least, even if the weather was perfect the CT is tough s#$t, but mother nature was not all smiles as we tried to traverse the rugged mountains of Colorado. Although the time spent on route wasn't that long it burned inside my head like it was weeks of exposure rather that days, was it the fact that i traveled for 20+ hours a day, or the fact that i was wearing myself down with every mile and hour spent in motion. Nice work out there everyone! I feel like a survivor more than I can say i feel like I won, the last day I wanted only to be done, no glory, no record time, no beating anyone, I wanted to be out of my shorts, my wet shoes, off my bike, I wanted hot spicy fat soaked food and soft warm bedding, no more wet bivy shivering, no more rice bars for diner. So thanks to Allison for the video, Joe for the MTBcast, etc, thanks to the post office for getting me my food drops. Thanks to stefan for getting us all out there for this challenge, nice work to Stefan, Ethan, Jason, Fred and Matt for making it all the way, Matt I love your sense of humor, never a bad hair day! I think jason's comment about the 32 donuts was priceless, food was one of the few comforts to be had out there. It would have been cool to get to hang out with you all post ride and trade stories, but we all have lives to return to, i know my dog was happy to see me! Thanks to DH for having breakfast with me and listening to me go on and on. It is good to be alive, Peace Jefe

  154. #154
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    Trailside reporters and solo, self-supported racing.

    As the webpage description indicates, the CTR is an individual time trial: all that is provided is a route description, a suggested start time, and a list of results.

    However, as we all know, it is also a race, and a race has motivational elements that do not exist in a solo time trial. Moreover, all of the motivational elements that I can think of are directly related to the non-solo aspect of a race. There are other racers out there pushing you or that you are chasing. There are people at home anxiously awaiting the call-ins and updates. And yes, there may even be trailside ďreportersĒ that want to interview you.

    For me, by far the biggest motivator is the other racers. On the La Garita detour, I was experiencing my lowest point of the race. Tired, sick of the gravel road, cold and wet, Jefe caught up to me. My pace instantly doubled, and the pained and drained feeling in my legs just vanished! This sort of motivation from a riding companion just doesn't happen in a solo TT.

    The call-ins have evolved into the standard method for determining positions and whereabouts of racers. Even though this has been deemed acceptable, one could argue that it provides others with enough knowledge of a racer's location that if said racer failed to make the next checkpoint after a certain length of time, a bailout rescue mission will be on the way.

    Lastly, and apparently the most controversial motivator, is having a person who is not racing pop up along the trail to take pictures, interviews, or just cheer. Advance knowledge of the location of someone being on route and doing this is obviously immediate grounds for disqualification. Particularly if the location happens to be out in the middle of nowhere. But what about in a town? Say if I had a friend in Silverton, what is wrong with that friend planning to meet for lunch at a cafe? Yeah, ya, of course he/she can't order my food in advance, give me anything, reserve this or that, yadda, yadda, yadda. In fact, it is probably to my disadvantage to meet a friend for lunch as it would likely turn from a brief stop into something longer. To take it a step further, what if the roving reporter is a friend or SO of one of the racers? Or maybe just a friend of *all* of the racers? As Dave Chenault so aptly put it, ďIt all comes down to the racer's integrity, anyway.Ē Ultimately, we are all dependent on the integrity of the other racers, and developing trust and mutual respect for one another is an important aspect of this particular niche in our sport. Let's not forget about this important discussion.

    We all learned at the pre-race meeting that Alison had decided not to race, and might show up somewhere along the trail to take pictures of all of the racers. None of us knew where, or when she might show up, and we all agreed that if she provided any ďservicesĒ for Jason, that he should have to pay for them, and the rest of us would also have equal opportunity to pay for them... I haven't heard a single complaint from another CTR racer that Alison somehow ruined their experience on the trail. In fact, it seems to have been the opposite, as it was nice to run into someone who actually knew what we were trying to accomplish. And don't forget, as racers we also had the freedom to ride right by her if we so chose.

    Now, as Scott mentioned, what if 75 people show up, all with SO's following the race by vehicle? Yes, I agree, this would destroy much of the original adventure intended for the CTR, and if it gets out of hand, we will have to address it. But for now, we already see hundreds of other people in towns and popular places along the trail, so even seeing a handful of familiar faces along the way seems to be an exceedingly minor issue.

    My conclusion is that as solo and wild of an experience as we try to make these races, the fact that they are races means that they may garner much more attention than the strictly solo adventures that many of us choose to embark on. However, the CTR does remain an individual time trial with a suggested start time. If you don't want any of the motivational elements I've detailed above, pick your own start time and go blast the course! The rules are clear, and there are obvious advantages either way.

    Stefan Griebel
    The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -TJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan_G

    My conclusion is that as solo and wild of an experience as we try to make these races, the fact that they are races means that they may garner much more attention than the strictly solo adventures that many of us choose to embark on. However, the CTR does remain an individual time trial with a suggested start time. If you don't want any of the motivational elements I've detailed above, pick your own start time and go blast the course! The rules are clear, and there are obvious advantages either way.

    Stefan Griebel

    Well said Stefan. It's an interesting question, insofar as for me one quite small question has led to a whole lot of thinking. My thoughts are still very much less than clear, but overall it seems to me that the diversity of the individuals that put the intellectul work into making these events happen will result in the plenum from which we can all (to our benefit) partake. Their will necessarily be bad apples, but I think in the end far, far fewer than in most other things in life.

    One question that occurs to me, what if a CTR rider happened to live in one of the pass through towns. If I lived in Silverton, for instance, I could presumably stop and spend the night at my own house, take a shower, and eat the food I bought ahead of time (presuming what I'd want to eat, etc). And yet, I might chose to forego some or all of the above in order to level the playing field.

  156. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by ionsmuse
    One question that occurs to me, what if a CTR rider happened to live in one of the pass through towns. If I lived in Silverton, for instance, I could presumably stop and spend the night at my own house, take a shower, and eat the food I bought ahead of time (presuming what I'd want to eat, etc). And yet, I might chose to forego some or all of the above in order to level the playing field.
    This has been addressed before, and is most definitely considered outside support. Unless, maybe, you live at the Super 8? Think of it this way - if you wanted level the playing field and open your house and pantry to all the other racers too, you would essentially be providing outside support to others.

    This reminds me of another argument I have heard for disallowing motels because some may not be able to afford them. IMO, this reasoning is completely bogus. We would have to disallow custom Ti bikes and accessories, fancy bike shoes, high-performance clothes and bivy gear, etc. all for the same reason.
    The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -TJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan_G
    This reminds me of another argument I have heard for disallowing motels because some may not be able to afford them. IMO, this reasoning is completely bogus. We would have to disallow custom Ti bikes and accessories, fancy bike shoes, high-performance clothes and bivy gear, etc. all for the same reason.
    Then maybe I should start paying attention! As someone who's though of moving to Silverton, that would be harsh temptation.

    Totally unrelated, but it'd be kinda cool if everyone in the Tour had to use the same bike.

  158. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by ionsmuse
    Totally unrelated, but it'd be kinda cool if everyone in the Tour had to use the same bike.
    Along with the same EPO?
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    Along with the same EPO?

    Ginsing and Dexatrim only.

  160. #160
    Scott in Tucson
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    Stefan,

    I regret that you are having to address this, when keystrokes could be better spent on the experience. Because that's what matters. I'd much rather be reading about how this incredible race went for you. All in good time, I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan_G
    Advance knowledge of the location of someone being on route and doing this is obviously immediate grounds for disqualification. Particularly if the location happens to be out in the middle of nowhere.
    I don't really see how knowing the location that a crew meets you at has an effect on things. It makes it worse, I guess, but the idea is the same. All we need to do is think from the perspective of the loop hole finders. If it's OK to have a fully stocked crew/"reporter" out on the trail, as long as you don't know exactly where they will meet you it's pretty easy to imagine what that could turn into. E.G. they could be at every road crossing and still claim "but they didn't know I was going to be here!"

    Sound far fetched? I really wish it were not necessary to think this way in regards to the rules, but it has become necessary in recent years, especially with the GDR. As it says on the GDR page:

    One last word on the rules: The original intent of this race was to ride the GDMBR as fast as possible in the simplest/purest style possible. As time has gone on people have begun looking for loopholes within the rules that'll save them time on the course.

    This is human nature and all of us do it in different ways in our everyday lives. With respect to the GDR, we ask that you please consider the long term ramifications of finding and using loopholes--the race will only get 'easier' and (conversely) require more rules/regulations as time goes on.

    This goes against all of the principles that the race was founded on.
    Also, I've been informed that what I write is coming off as being handed down from on high. This isn't my intention, and things are certainly up for discussion, which is pretty much the point of this. If anyone has a good argument for allowing support crews on course, we're all ears. It just happens that there's already been much discussion on this subject, and a general consensus reached (thus the GLR rules I quoted in an earlier post). Valid ideas/arguments are always welcome.
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  161. #161
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    I think intent is important. What is the intent of the person our there on the course? Are they there to break rules and provide tangible support like refilled bottles, food, and mechanical assistance? Or are they there to simply try and catch a glimpse of a rider passing by?

    People who want to break the rules, always will find a way to do it.

    I think we ought to be careful in over-regulating these rides based on what a few people will do. Eventually everything snowballs, and what is we have is nothing short of the very sort of experience we are trying to avoid.

    I was hoping to get on the Grand Loop course this year to take some photos and video during the ride. I contacted Mike to make sure that would be OK. I also contacted some of the racers who I knew would be riding to make sure they were OK with me being out there. I had no intention of telling people where or when I'd be, or even letting them be aware of my presence at all, but I still wanted to make sure it was cool to be out there. Unfortunately I had other priorities come about and I was unable to be out on the route.

    I guess my point is, there will always be other people out there, some who know what we are up to, others who don't know and don't care. The bottom line is that as racers, we need to approach the events as if nobody else is going to be there. Once we start relying on hypothetical support, then that is when we will start running into trouble, with people being lost/injured etc.

    To bring along an unplanned support person...planning support. Personally i think excepting food or water or mechanical help from another person on the trail, planned or otherwise is breaking the spirit of the race. Buying food at stores along the way makes sense, because everyone is given the same opportunity. And given the nature of how big and long some of these rides are, it would be silly to require everything be carried for 7 days or 3 weeks on ones back.

    But as I have said, some people will always be justified in cheating. They have no place in this type of riding. And eventually I think will weed themselves out. It must horribly gut wrenching to cheat to win a race with no point in winning, other than knowing you did it all on your own...

    Also, perhaps we should make a new thread for this? We are stealing away from the good vibes of race stories and pictures.
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  162. #162
    Scott in Tucson
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    I think we ought to be careful in over-regulating these rides based on what a few people will do. Eventually everything snowballs, and what is we have is nothing short of the very sort of experience we are trying to avoid.
    Thanks for the comments, Adam. The above is a good point, and one I always try to keep in mind. It's certainly been raised as a concern with the growing list of GDR rules. There is a wide range of definitions for what self-support is, and I think we do need to continue to pin things down as challenges arise.

    But as I have said, some people will always be justified in cheating. They have no place in this type of riding. And eventually I think will weed themselves out. It must horribly gut wrenching to cheat to win a race with no point in winning, other than knowing you did it all on your own...
    It is pretty unbelievable that someone would cheat in an unsupported, no prize, little glory race, but it has already happened and will continue to happen. It'd be nice if they weeded out, but with increased numbers comes increased cheaters, I'm afraid.

    Also, perhaps we should make a new thread for this? We are stealing away from the good vibes of race stories and pictures.
    I'll agree to that. Thanks again for the comments.
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  163. #163
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    Hey there, thought I'd weigh in quickly.

    During the GDR, it occurred to me that once you're out there and riding there isn't much in the way of outside support that could be helpful. Unless your SO is planning to pedal the bike for you, it's pretty much up to the racer to get the bike moving from the start to the finish. Where I think outside support rules are important are for food, supplies and general assistance when things go wrong (this I know, trust me). I completely understand the rule/s that seek to create a level playing field. I guess my general point about outside support is that I found so much of the hub bub before the race on the matter to be somewhat moot once I got going as long as you are respecting the event.

    As for SO's specifically, I have some firsthand experience I can share. This is not a vote for or against a rule, but simply my experience. My SO (and dog) met me in Del Norte, CO during the GDR. She joined me for a quick bite to eat and then I was off an hour later. If I could do it again I would have told her not to be there. Not because of any "spirit of the race", but because it was borderline torture. Even Nathan Bay said on the way to Indiana Pass, "Jeesh, you're a glutton for punishment. One hour with your wife and she's gone." It was true; seeing her and the pooch just made me think of home. It sucked. It took me hours to get it out of my head. Total mistake.

    So there's my $0.02.

    Matt



    Quote Originally Posted by Krein
    Stefan,

    I regret that you are having to address this, when keystrokes could be better spent on the experience. Because that's what matters. I'd much rather be reading about how this incredible race went for you. All in good time, I suppose.



    I don't really see how knowing the location that a crew meets you at has an effect on things. It makes it worse, I guess, but the idea is the same. All we need to do is think from the perspective of the loop hole finders. If it's OK to have a fully stocked crew/"reporter" out on the trail, as long as you don't know exactly where they will meet you it's pretty easy to imagine what that could turn into. E.G. they could be at every road crossing and still claim "but they didn't know I was going to be here!"

    Sound far fetched? I really wish it were not necessary to think this way in regards to the rules, but it has become necessary in recent years, especially with the GDR. As it says on the GDR page:



    Also, I've been informed that what I write is coming off as being handed down from on high. This isn't my intention, and things are certainly up for discussion, which is pretty much the point of this. If anyone has a good argument for allowing support crews on course, we're all ears. It just happens that there's already been much discussion on this subject, and a general consensus reached (thus the GLR rules I quoted in an earlier post). Valid ideas/arguments are always welcome.

  164. #164
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    lake city

    this is mark caminiti and i am in lake city 7pm friday. the weather just handed me my ass over the last three days. im feeling good and should make silverton tomorrow afternoon. ill call in at that point again. congrats to the finishers- this race is hands down brutal and those times blow my mind. i could use a weather reprieve as these fall like conditions are hardcore.

  165. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by dream4est
    this is mark caminiti and i am in lake city 7pm friday. the weather just handed me my ass over the last three days. im feeling good and should make silverton tomorrow afternoon. ill call in at that point again. congrats to the finishers- this race is hands down brutal and those times blow my mind. i could use a weather reprieve as these fall like conditions are hardcore.
    Keep 'er going Mark! You're about to embark on, IMO, the prettiest section of the whole race! The wildflowers are outta control. Good luck, and I hope you get some sunny skies for a change.
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  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    I think intent is important. What is the intent of the person our there on the course? Are they there to break rules and provide tangible support like refilled bottles, food, and mechanical assistance? Or are they there to simply try and catch a glimpse of a rider passing by?

    People who want to break the rules, always will find a way to do it.
    Like it has been said before, we are all dependent on the integrity of the other racers, and in that respect, a trailside reporter with the sole intent of taking pictures and interviews is no different than a course marshal out there looking for rules infractions.

    As Adam says, If people want to cheat, they will find a way. The simplest of which involves no outside assistance, and is simply cutting the course.
    Quote Originally Posted by Krein
    I don't really see how knowing the location that a crew meets you at has an effect on things.
    My original line of thinking was that even if the intent of this person is not to provide any support, just knowing they are going to be there as a potential bailout could possibly change a rider's strategy. As opposed to if they are in a town, where there are bailouts galore.

    So, once again, it always seems to come down to the integrity of the racers! Outlawing anybody who intends to offer zero support (SO or friend or otherwise) from popping up on the course feels to me like we are starting out with mistrust for other racers, and I would argue that this goes completely against the spirit of these kind of races! Not giving other racers trust from the start is only going to make them feel even more like cheating.

    I disagree with any law or rule that contains technicalities for the sole purpose of enforcement of that law. A relevant example is that possessing a bike in the Wilderness is not allowed. As we have discussed before, that technicality exists as a way to enforce the intent of the law, which is to keep people from riding bikes in the Wilderness. So why don't they just make the law state that riding a bike in the Wilderness is not allowed? Ahhh, hah! Because the government does not trust the integrity of the "general public"! In my opinion, the people that lined up (and will continue to line up) at the start of the CTR are not the "general public". They are tough mountain bikers. Seasoned or not, they deserve trust from the start. Maybe I am too trusting, but I truly believe that if you give an individual a noble ideal to live up to, particularly by setting an example, that they will try to do it.

    But if they don't, and they are caught - by all means, then is the time to publicly disqualify them and ban them from all future events. In my mind, adding technicalities solely to enforce the "Do. It. Yourself." guiding principle of these races, goes against basing the race on the honor system to begin with!
    The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -TJ

  167. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krein
    If anyone has a good argument for allowing support crews on course, we're all ears. It just happens that there's already been much discussion on this subject, and a general consensus reached (thus the GLR rules I quoted in an earlier post). Valid ideas/arguments are always welcome.
    I don't think anyone here is arguing to allow support crews on course! The race is solo and self-supported, and we all know that support crews are not allowed, nor do we want any. The touchy subject here seems to be the difference between a random stranger showing up along the way and taking your picture or asking you a question versus a friend/SO showing up and doing the same. Have I mentioned integrity of the racer?
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  168. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan_G

    I disagree with any law or rule that contains technicalities for the sole purpose of enforcement of that law. A relevant example is that possessing a bike in the Wilderness is not allowed. As we have discussed before, that technicality exists as a way to enforce the intent of the law, which is to keep people from riding bikes in the Wilderness. So why don't they just make the law state that riding a bike in the Wilderness is not allowed? Ahhh, hah! Because the government does not trust the integrity of the "general public"! In my opinion, the people that lined up (and will continue to line up) at the start of the CTR are not the "general public". They are tough mountain bikers. Seasoned or not, they deserve trust from the start. Maybe I am too trusting, but I truly believe that if you give an individual a noble ideal to live up to, particularly by setting an example, that they will try to do it.
    Bravo!

    Well said, indeed.

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    Mathew Lee (Finished 815PM Thursday, 173:15 elapsed)

    Hey this is Mathew Lee, just rode into town from the Junction Creek trail head, lookin for pizza. But before I go I just wanted to let you know I came to a perfect skid at 815PM this evening at the southern trail head. Colorado Trail Race Ė good times!

  170. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGSNOW
    Got lucky again - ran into Matthew Lee in Silverton at 1:45 yesterday.
    Great video with his thoughts on the race. Hope he finishes soon! Alison

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1Se4Pmfo6w
    Great job, Matthew! It seems that you, of all the racers, loved this course more than anything, and have a great appreciation for all aspects of the CT. Not just the awesome singletrack and beautiful scenery, but also the gnarly rocks of Sargents Mesa and the daily thunderstorms. Definitely all part of the experience, and I am impressed how you could never have a bad hairday through all of it...

    But doing the CTR with no lights?! I dunno about that, it is a race after all! And even the wildflowers look cool at night!
    The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -TJ

  171. #171
    Scott in Tucson
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    My original line of thinking was that even if the intent of this person is not to provide any support, just knowing they are going to be there as a potential bailout could possibly change a rider's strategy. As opposed to if they are in a town, where there are bailouts galore.
    Yep, and no one has raised objection to people meeting racers in town (on a limited or one-time basis). In the smallest of ways it doesn't fit into the "on your own part", but I don't see any good reason to not allow it. I think I called it a gray area in the original post.

    You're right, the possible bailout part is another reason not to allow it. Again, even if you don't know the exact locations, if your SO is generally "on course" it can sure change your strategy for how you ride.

    So, once again, it always seems to come down to the integrity of the racers! Outlawing anybody who intends to offer zero support (SO or friend or otherwise) from popping up on the course feels to me like we are starting out with mistrust for other racers, and I would argue that this goes completely against the spirit of these kind of races! Not giving other racers trust from the start is only going to make them feel even more like cheating.
    I understand your sentiment (and others who expressed it similarly), but I think you're missing the point. Rules do not prevent people from cheating. By definition, they spell out what cheating is. So I find all this talk of "trusting" racers to be off the mark.

    My problem with what you seem to be proposing is that roving crews (call them reporters if you want) would be completely legal, and therefore someone who had a car waiting at every road crossing "just in case" would not be cheating at all.

    If you don't define the line for what is and isn't OK, then it's not even up to integrity.

    But if they don't, and they are caught - by all means, then is the time to publicly disqualify them and ban them from all future events. In my mind, adding technicalities solely to enforce the "Do. It. Yourself." guiding principle of these races, goes against basing the race on the honor system to begin with!
    Once again, I admire the sentiment, but if you really believe this I suggest you take a hard look at the current rules for your race and throw out, well, just about all of them. It's about defining what "Do. It. Yourself" means -- largely because that means different things to different people. It's an attempt to get us all on the same page, and does not imply any distrust of racers whatsoever.

    The fact that a SO "reporter" can quickly become a support crew to a dishonest racer is only one reason to not allow such things. This seems to be the only one you guys are addressing with the distrust argument.

    Another reason is the psychological boost (slash added security) that seeing a loved one (in a remote location) can bring. Is this fair to someone who comes to the race from out-of-state, or who has no SO? Are you doing the race "on your own" if your SO is always within 20 miles of the route and frequently popping in?

    Dave C. and Matt M. pointed out it can be a double-edged sword. Fair enough, but it can also be a single-edged one, very easily.

    Affecting other racers ~solo experience is another reason still. All CTR racers this year may not have minded it, but that proves little -- some people may mind it, and they would have a legitimate claim to complain about it. These races are inherently not spectator events. That's what we're getting way from, right?

    Yet another is the possible bailout option, giving a racer a much higher assurance that someone can quickly bail them out of a sticky situation, thus allowing a more aggressive strategy. This is an advantage even if you didn't pre-plan exact locations to meet up. Since it's legal to carry a cell phone, even though use = DQ, that still gives a decent bailout system assuming your crew is always near.

    Taken together, this is more than enough, in my opinion...
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  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krein

    Another reason is the psychological boost (slash added security) that seeing a loved one (in a remote location) can bring. Is this fair to someone who comes to the race from out-of-state, or who has no SO? Are you doing the race "on your own" if your SO is always within 20 miles of the route and frequently popping in?

    Dave C. and Matt M. pointed out it can be a double-edged sword. Fair enough, but it can also be a single-edged one, very easily.
    Another issue that no one's really brought up yet: What if two SO's are both in a race together? Would they be disallowed from riding together/helping each other on course because of their marital status, or is this disallowed among all racers?

    (By the way, I think the clarification of these self-supported race rules is a really good thing. It's one thing to go out on a course and do it yourself, and it's quite another to go out on a course with other riders with the goal of "finishing first" in mind. It's important the everyone is on the same playing field, and that goal requires a list of standards - rules - to be set in place.)

  173. #173
    Scott in Tucson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jilleo
    Another issue that no one's really brought up yet: What if two SO's are both in a race together? Would they be disallowed from riding together/helping each other on course because of their marital status, or is this disallowed among all racers?
    If both are racing the race and following the self-supported rules (no drafting, maintaining separate gear) there's nothing that says they can't ride together. It's clearly not the same as riding alone, and I can see a few possible objections, but much, much less than having a SO in a vehicle.

    This has happened in several races, including the first GDR with Matt and Trish. There have also been pairs of people (e.g. two guys) that have decided to ride the whole race together, so it's not just SO's.

    (By the way, I think the clarification of these self-supported race rules is a really good thing. It's one thing to go out on a course and do it yourself, and it's quite another to go out on a course with other riders with the goal of "finishing first" in mind. It's important the everyone is on the same playing field, and that goal requires a list of standards - rules - to be set in place.)
    Glad you agree, thanks.
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  174. #174
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    OK, this is getting blown way out of proportion. These 2 quotes completely sum it up:
    Quote Originally Posted by AGSNOW
    just so everyone knows, not one racer knew where i was going to turn up, in fact neither did I. so there was no 'bailout' option in their minds. i think it is a fine line, and I tried my best to respect the spirit and rules of the race. I just happened to get a day off.... and was driving home from denver....
    Quote Originally Posted by Krein
    Fair enough, and thanks for clarifying.

    Just throwing out food for thought, and trying to make sure others don't get the wrong idea about following the race. I don't know the details of what's going on out there this year.
    New thread here: Solo, self-supported race rules rehashed ad nauseam...
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  175. #175
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    Mark (Silverton, 320PM, elapsed 216:20)

    Hey this is Mark, got to Silverton about 3PM. Weather is too cold to continue. Iím getting my bike fixed at Mobius, I broke a spoke on Cinnamon pass. Wheel went a little funky, shifting went a little funky. Doing fine, would have probably been able to crank it out throughout the night and get done but I donít want to risk it in the weather. Raining pretty hard, itís about 320PM at the moment. Think Iím going to break out real early in the morning and try to finish tomorrow afternoon. And I will see you guys then, later.

  176. #176
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    So wait, if I do the GDR and my girlfriend decides to have lunch with me in Steamboat, and I buy my food, I get disqualified? That's ****ing stupid, and totally artificial. You want a true wilderness race...have it in a real wilderness area. By the way, how is it self supported to have people getting bike shop assistance in Salida?

    Maybe we should everyone slice out their larynx too so nobody can speak with anybody, thereby assuring a true "solo" wilderness experience in areas that are wholly non wilderness.
    Last edited by Pluto Pilot; 07-28-2007 at 08:30 PM.

  177. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pluto Pilot
    So wait, if I do the GDR and my girlfriend decides to have lunch with me in Steamboat, and I buy my food, I get disqualified? That's ****ing stupid, and totally artificial. You want a true wilderness race...have it in a real wilderness area. By the way, how is it self supported to have people getting bike shop assistance in Salida?

    Maybe we should everyone slice out their larynx too so nobody can speak with anybody, thereby assuring a true "solo" wilderness experience in areas that are wholly non wilderness.

    It's a bummer when ego gets in the way of something cool. Krein...Fine...I'll do it alone...your rules are silly and your lack of faith in human beings pisses me off and makes me want to have nothing to do with you. Who exactly are you anyhow and who made you allah?
    Easy there Pluto. You've gone well beyond disagreement, and frankly that tone will lead nowhere productive. Furthermore, you've completely misunderstood Krein. That's understandable as anyone new to the genre struggles to understand the framework - and it's clearly evolving as I write this...
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  178. #178
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    "Is this fair to someone who comes to the race from out-of-state, or who has no SO? "

    Silly argument. Every event has a home field advantage for certain folks. Perhaps folks who live close to the CT should be banned from riding it before the event so everyone has the same wilderness experience? If I go to a race in Nepal I know I'm going to be way out of my element and will be at a disadvantage to the locals. That's part of the game. At the Mt. Snow NORBA National the east coast guys have an advantage over the Rocky Mountain guys. Rocky Mountain residents are going to have an advantage in a Colorado race...plain and simple. Hell, at Iditabike the Alaskans sort of chuckle at the lower-48 folks, and nobody raises a stink about that. If you have a S.O. who you want to see on the course, and they don't violate the rules of the race, and are considerate to others, I really don't see the issue.

    By the way, it's not like the woman who did the video of the CT was the only person these racers had seen. I rode a fairly remote section of the CT on Wednesday - middle of the day - and saw probably a dozen backpackers. Point being, there are lots of folks out there.

  179. #179
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    Take it to the other thread guys - this one is supposed to be about the CTR, and not a flame war.

  180. #180
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    Here's the thing. When you start restricting family, and interfering in people's personal lives, that's crossing the line. What if someone has dying dog, or a sick family member, and just wants to check in and see that person or pet during the race to make sure all is OK? Apparently these races have no compassion for human emotion. It's not about cheating...it's about being a person. I don't like it when a job or boss tells me how to deal with my family, and I don't like it when this stuff needlessly pops up for events like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by hairball_dh
    Easy there Pluto. You've gone well beyond disagreement, and frankly that tone will lead nowhere productive. Furthermore, you've completely misunderstood Krein. That's understandable as anyone new to the genre struggles to understand the framework - and it's clearly evolving as I write this...

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    Sorry about the previous audio file issue, Folks. It's fixed now.
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  182. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Froman
    Take it to the other thread guys - this one is supposed to be about the CTR, and not a flame war.
    10-4

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    10-4

  184. #184
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    I think the spirit of the race is you against the course. Part of what makes the GDR, Grand Loop, CTR and the like unique is the remote nature of the routes. Therefore the spirit is that you're out there, on your own, challenging the route.

    I would agree that the injection of hotel stays, bike shops, etc. already taint the spirit to an extent. However, the idea is that you are on your own. The idea of having a family member come out and meet you on the course certainly seems benign but it also offers you an advantage, albeit emotionally, than someone who perhaps is from too far away to have such a luxury. I certainly see the idea behind it leaving them out. It is naturally going to lend to the remoteness of the race to keep family at bay.

    No one is going to like every rule. This is just human nature. Every rule is probably going to have what someone will think of as an exception and one can argue logically their position. However, the idea is that there has to be some framework of rules. Surely we can all agree on that. Otherwise, these races are merely group rides for a select few.
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  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by jav1231
    The idea of having a family member come out and meet you on the course certainly seems benign but it also offers you an advantage, albeit emotionally, than someone who perhaps is from too far away to have such a luxury. I certainly see the idea behind it leaving them out. It is naturally going to lend to the remoteness of the race to keep family at bay.
    Again, telling people how to handle their family in the race is, in my opinion, crossing the bounds. It also a very white, anglo-saxon value. At the Leadville 100 running race a few years ago, there were runners from Mexico racing who lived at very high altitudes participating (and I might add winning). For these people, family was everything, and it corresponded in almost a spiritual way to the race. The family came along, and while they did nothing to "support" the racer in terms of physical boost or food, their presence was essential for these competitors, and added to the color of the race.

    It's not surprising that in a country with a plus 50% divorce rate and a work culture that encourages folks to spend more and more time in the office away from family, that this would come up. It's a societal thing in America to strike out on your own and leave your family behind. And I wonder if that's a good thing, and something we should buy into?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Froman
    Mark (Silverton, 320PM, elapsed 216:20)

    Hey this is Mark, got to Silverton about 3PM. Weather is too cold to continue. Iím getting my bike fixed at Mobius, I broke a spoke on Cinnamon pass. Wheel went a little funky, shifting went a little funky. Doing fine, would have probably been able to crank it out throughout the night and get done but I donít want to risk it in the weather. Raining pretty hard, itís about 320PM at the moment. Think Iím going to break out real early in the morning and try to finish tomorrow afternoon. And I will see you guys then, later.
    Right on! Way to go Mark! In some ways, your longer ride of the CTR is far harder than doing it faster - you've had to deal with the weather and wetness day in and day out! Hope you have a great ride over to Durango!
    The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -TJ

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    '07 CTR nearing completion!

    The race is coming to a close as the last racer, Mark Caminiti, nears Durango. There have been many highs and many lows, for both the racers and the spectators, I might add! All in all, I hope that each of the racers come away from this event with a great sense of accomplishment, and a new appreciation for the Colorado Trail! Having both of those ring true for other people besides myself gives me great satisfaction and the willingness to continue to organize this event in the years to come.

    The trail is hard in some places, easy in others, beautiful for it's entire length, and takes an incredible amount of work to maintain. In fact, there is no government agency that maintains the trail - it was solely created and maintained through a network of volunteers organized by the Colorado Trail Foundation. In the absence of any registration or entrance fee for the CTR, I am encouraging each and every racer and spectator to donate either some time or money to the Colorado Trail Foundation. It doesn't have to be a lot, but I think it would be a great token of appreciation for the fact that we have this great trail to ride and race on! Not only that, the CTF is definitely in need of representation from more mountain bikers! If we want to continue to have access to this trail, it is important that we stay involved!

    I am dreaming for the day when we can have an all-biker work crew go up to Sargents Mesa and put in some sweet singletrack to replace that nasty pinball, baby-head, bowling-ball-talus 20 miles of painful riding. Then the course would go under 5 days for sure!!

    Cheers,
    Stefan Griebel
    The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -TJ

  188. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pluto Pilot
    It's not surprising that in a country with a plus 50% divorce rate and a work culture that encourages folks to spend more and more time in the office away from family, that this would come up. It's a societal thing in America to strike out on your own and leave your family behind. And I wonder if that's a good thing, and something we should buy into?
    Okay, I don't know where you're going with that but that certainly crossed a line. I think you're projecting values and intent into the rules or ideas expressed here that are way off the mark.
    Last edited by jav1231; 07-29-2007 at 08:41 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan_G
    The race is coming to a close as the last racer, Mark Caminiti, nears Durango. There have been many highs and many lows, for both the racers and the spectators, I might add! All in all, I hope that each of the racers come away from this event with a great sense of accomplishment, and a new appreciation for the Colorado Trail! Having both of those ring true for other people besides myself gives me great satisfaction and the willingness to continue to organize this event in the years to come.

    The trail is hard in some places, easy in others, beautiful for it's entire length, and takes an incredible amount of work to maintain. In fact, there is no government agency that maintains the trail - it was solely created and maintained through a network of volunteers organized by the Colorado Trail Foundation. In the absence of any registration or entrance fee for the CTR, I am encouraging each and every racer and spectator to donate either some time or money to the Colorado Trail Foundation. It doesn't have to be a lot, but I think it would be a great token of appreciation for the fact that we have this great trail to ride and race on! Not only that, the CTF is definitely in need of representation from more mountain bikers! If we want to continue to have access to this trail, it is important that we stay involved!

    I am dreaming for the day when we can have an all-biker work crew go up to Sargents Mesa and put in some sweet singletrack to replace that nasty pinball, baby-head, bowling-ball-talus 20 miles of painful riding. Then the course would go under 5 days for sure!!

    Cheers,
    Stefan Griebel

    stefan, i bailed at mile 13 of section 25 at 3pm yesterday (10days from start). the weather just kept handing me my ass. i went from 60 miles per day for the first five to 30 miles a day over the last five. my self imposed time limit was 10 days so i bailed back to the highway and rented a car in d-town. thanks for everything. i will be back next year if you do this again as im pretty happy with my first ever effort at this. i will post more later as im tired right now.

    mark c.

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    Nice job dude. I kind of called you out before the race for that whole Dave Nice deal, but you definitely proved your metal. Pretty impressive.

    Question about the course...does it skip the section from Spring Creek Pass to Stony Pass and back to Silverton? I wouldn't blame you if it did...that section is hard to follow in places, involves some hiking over tundra and is super exposed. It's beautiful, but it would be challenging racing.

    Quote Originally Posted by dream4est
    stefan, i bailed at mile 13 of section 25 at 3pm yesterday (10days from start). the weather just kept handing me my ass. i went from 60 miles per day for the first five to 30 miles a day over the last five. my self imposed time limit was 10 days so i bailed back to the highway and rented a car in d-town. thanks for everything. i will be back next year if you do this again as im pretty happy with my first ever effort at this. i will post more later as im tired right now.

    mark c.

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    Thanks for the update, Mark. We were really pulling for you, and congrats on getting as far as you did! The end was, oh so near, and man the weather turned out to be nasty this year. The CTR will be happening again next year, so you'll definitely have another chance.

    I'll update webpages n stuff as soon as I get a chance! Thanks for playing everyone!
    The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -TJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pluto Pilot
    Question about the course...does it skip the section from Spring Creek Pass to Stony Pass and back to Durango? I wouldn't blame you if it did...that section is hard to follow in places, involves some hiking over tundra and is super exposed. It's beautiful, but it would be challenging racing.
    Yes. It also skips the segment from Breck to Copper, and uses the Tenmile bike path. It was tough choosing these detours, but in the end, we decided that this thing had plenty of hike-a-bike as it stood, and we wanted it to be a "bike" race, not a hiking race. The Coney Summit section is so long and exposed, we *all* would have gotten our asses handed to us from the weather this year. That was another (minor) factor when considering which detours to use.

    Find the course description here.
    The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -TJ

  193. #193
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    Makes sense. Do you know of a standing record for someone who has completed those two sections along with the rest of the trail? I would think that would add at least a day to things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan_G
    Yes. It also skips the segment from Breck to Copper, and uses the Tenmile bike path. It was tough choosing these detours, but in the end, we decided that this thing had plenty of hike-a-bike as it stood, and we wanted it to be a "bike" race, not a hiking race. The Coney Summit section is so long and exposed, we *all* would have gotten our asses handed to us from the weather this year. That was another (minor) factor when considering which detours to use.

    Find the course description here.

  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan_G
    In fact, there is no government agency that maintains the trail - it was solely created and maintained through a network of volunteers organized by the Colorado Trail Foundation. In the absence of any registration or entrance fee for the CTR, I am encouraging each and every racer and spectator to donate either some time or money to the Colorado Trail Foundation.
    This is a great idea Stefan, and something I'd like to adopt for my race (Arizona Trail) as well. Same deal -- an unbelievable amount of hard work goes into the trail, and the least we can do is donate a little time and/or money to the organization giving us a spectacular route to enjoy and race.

    I haven't raced the CT (yet), but I have attended a trail work party.

    I am dreaming for the day when we can have an all-biker work crew go up to Sargents Mesa and put in some sweet singletrack to replace that nasty pinball, baby-head, bowling-ball-talus 20 miles of painful riding. Then the course would go under 5 days for sure!!
    Author of TopoFusion GPS Software. MTB+backpacking = bikepacking.net. Ride Diary.

  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan_G
    Yes. It also skips the segment from Breck to Copper, and uses the Tenmile bike path. It was tough choosing these detours, but in the end, we decided that this thing had plenty of hike-a-bike as it stood, and we wanted it to be a "bike" race, not a hiking race. The Coney Summit section is so long and exposed, we *all* would have gotten our asses handed to us from the weather this year. That was another (minor) factor when considering which detours to use.

    Find the course description here.
    Stefan,

    Having been a part of the discussion over these route decisions, I'm wondering if you think we made the right choice? I wasn't 100% conviced of either decision at the time, and I'm now curious what your thoughts are, having raced and felt the rhythm of the route...

    Thanks.
    Author of TopoFusion GPS Software. MTB+backpacking = bikepacking.net. Ride Diary.

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    Mark

    This is Mark, its 730 or 800PM at night, in Durango. Didnít make it. Bailed about mile 13 of section 25 at 300PM. My 300PM cutoff time for myself at 10 days, I wasnít even really close, I had 60 miles left, the weather was horrible, rained on my for about an hour and a half strait, that was five days in a row. Iíve pretty much had enough, so I bailed off down a side trail, followed a mountain biker out. Thanks a lot guys, it was pretty cool, thought I was going to make it in under 10 days but the weather held me up pretty sever, day before Lake City, Lake City and Silverton. Iíll post something on the net later, you guys have a good one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pluto Pilot
    Makes sense. Do you know of a standing record for someone who has completed those two sections along with the rest of the trail? I would think that would add at least a day to things.
    I did the entire trail (fully supported - hiking through the Wilderness without my bike!) last year in 7d20h. Paul Hooge did those two sections of trail on an unsupported bike trip, but he skipped the Breck --> Copper segment just like we did.j

    These (and all other CT records I know of) are listed at the bottom of the CTR webpage. If you know of any more, please pass them along!

    Adding the Coney Summit / Stoney Pass segments would add at least 8 hours, and would also make the detour to Lake City very out of the way.

    The entire CT is ~470 miles and ~75000', while the CTR is ~530 miles and ~60000'. Most of that extra mileage is from the Tarryall detour.
    The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -TJ

  198. #198
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    I did the entire trail (fully supported - hiking through the Wilderness without my bike!) last year in 7d20h. Paul Hooge did those two sections of trail on an unsupported bike trip, but he skipped the Breck --> Copper segment just like we did.j

    That's impressive when you take into account the hiking part of it. That record will stand for awhile I bet.

    Adding the Coney Summit / Stoney Pass segments would add at least 8 hours, and would also make the detour to Lake City very out of the way.

    The climb up to the top of Spring Creek Pass after you come off the detour would be no cake walk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krein
    Stefan,

    Having been a part of the discussion over these route decisions, I'm wondering if you think we made the right choice? I wasn't 100% conviced of either decision at the time, and I'm now curious what your thoughts are, having raced and felt the rhythm of the route...

    Thanks.
    Based on this year's weather, we absolutely made the correct route decisions! I'd like to hear from the other racers too!

    Here are my detailed thoughts: As a racer, when I arrived in Breckenridge, all I wanted to do was cruise the bikepath to the Conoco and warm up and get some food. I had no desire to spend another 3-5 hours hiking my bike up and over to Copper Mtn. And again, when I got to Hwy. 149, I had originally planned on skipping Lake City, but dreams of a hot dinner and restocking my meager food supply forced me to continue down into town. I distinctly remember being very, very happy with the route choice at that point. Cinnamon Pass in the evening had zero traffic, and was quite enjoyable! However, I'm sure a big part of this feeling comes from the mental preparation involved before and during the race. I wasn't mentally prepared for those sections, so of course I didn't want to do them.

    The lowest point of the race for me was during the long detour from Saguache Park Road to Molas, and I still felt it was better than the Coney Summit + Pole Creek segments. But now, Pole Creek has been rerouted along Cateract Ridge to emerge at the top of Stony Pass! That makes those segments more appealing (to me), but also would also entail adding nearly a full day of riding completely above tree-line, with *lots* of hiking, topping out at 13'200'! Weather would become a HUGE factor there.

    I'm not adverse to evolving the course, but if ya'll think this race is hard now, imagine skipping Lake City, and throw in another 4-5k of rugged high-altitude riding and hiking!! IMO, good for touring, bad for racing.
    The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -TJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pluto Pilot
    That's impressive when you take into account the hiking part of it. That record will stand for awhile I bet.
    Thanks. The hiking, indeed, was the most painful part, but then again, I'm a MTBer, not an ultra-runner. Of course, records are made to be broken, and I don't think that is a particularly solid record. If it stands for awhile, the only reason will be because nobody has lost their marbles enough to challenge it...
    The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -TJ

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