Poll: How many Ellsworth Owners are sick of the warranty posts...- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Poll: How many Ellsworth Owners are sick of the warranty posts...

    ...and the people perpetuating them???

    SUGGESTION-- Don't reply to them at all. Let them have their own post party until they get sick of it and let it drop off the page. Every time one of us responds it pops back up to the front of the board.

    STOP REPLYING!!! Even if you are insulted, as I am, by many of the posts and the tone therein.

    If you are like me, you want the Ellsworth board to be a place we share tips, tricks, suggestions, criticism and complaints in a human and civil matter, and tell each other how cool our bikes are.

    Let's try and make it that.

    Thanks,

    Michael
    I'll be along... eventually.

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by msylvan

    If you are like me, you want the Ellsworth board to be a place we share tips, tricks, suggestions, criticism and complaints in a human and civil matter, and tell each other how cool our bikes are.
    Your bike is SO COOL!

    Too bad the owner of the company is unethical, a liar, and a monumental problem with consistent customer service.

    p.s. Who is forcing you to continue to read threads that you are "sick of'?

  3. #3
    not so super...
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    I just found the 1st person for my Ignore list

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    I believe you have the coolest bike. I hope you weren't posting that reading Teen Bop magazine and listening to N'Sync in the background.

    You were born with free will in a country that supports it. If you need others to support you in your boycott of something you can censor for yourself, then you have issues with peer pressure.

    Be cooler than the bunch. Go out on your own and stop clicking on these threads. They will no longer exist if you stopped clicking on the link.
    Thanks for your oh so constructive posts steve3.
    Nothing to see here.

  4. #4
    orthonormal
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    Does anyone wonder why...

    Quote Originally Posted by msylvan
    ...and the people perpetuating them???

    SUGGESTION-- Don't reply to them at all. Let them have their own post party until they get sick of it and let it drop off the page. Every time one of us responds it pops back up to the front of the board.

    STOP REPLYING!!! Even if you are insulted, as I am, by many of the posts and the tone therein.

    If you are like me, you want the Ellsworth board to be a place we share tips, tricks, suggestions, criticism and complaints in a human and civil matter, and tell each other how cool our bikes are.

    Let's try and make it that.

    Thanks,

    Michael
    the negative posts regarding Ellsworth continue ad naseum?

    Do any of you remember the fiasco with the Titus Locomotos that were outsourced? Several frames broke, Titus recalled the whole bunch and took longer than promised to get people's replacement frames back to them. Does anyone wonder why Titus was so easily forgiven while negative feelings toward Ellsworth linger on?

    It's not about the bikes and it's not about the warranty.
    The glass is twice as large as it needs to be

  5. #5
    bald
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    Do any of you remember the fiasco with the Titus Locomotos that were outsourced? Several frames broke, Titus recalled the whole bunch and took longer than promised to get people's replacement frames back to them. Does anyone wonder why Titus was so easily forgiven while negative feelings toward Ellsworth linger on?
    The reason Titus escaped fairly unscathed, is they didn't try to charge for the warranty. I know at least of four Loco's that were effected. Don't get me wrong, i like the way my truth rides, but when i broke the seat tube and sent it back for warranty, i didn't expect to be told that, one the failure was due to the rear shocks inadequacies, and two, i would need to fork out 200 or so for a romic in order for the warranty to continue. The shock was spec'd on the bike by ellsworth and therefore if it was a problem to begin with should be fixed by ellsworth not the consumer. They did try to do the appropriate thing by offering cost, but one I can prodeal it cheaper, and OE spec is even less than that. I think that in itself is wrong because they're making money on that. Currently I'm looking to get another bike that's a little beefier than the truth, and the Id fills that nitch that i'm looking for, but i have serious questions to whether or not support that behavior.

  6. #6
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    How about non-ellsworth owners that think the issue has been beaten to death? Time to move on and talk about better things.

    (Turner Owner)

  7. #7
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    yeah

    I am not posting on the anti-ellsworth threads to become troll bait and keep the threads going but i still hate this new board format and this is one of the reasons, the thread will never go away now. I will bet a year from now it will be still in the top 25 most recent threads and reach 9000 posts. I even feel hesitant in posting on this troll bait thread.<p>I haven't been keeping up with the anti-ellsworth threads once they go past 10 posts but i did just notice that even the moderators are being attacked and accused of editing the anti-ellsworth threads. wow<p>I blame this new board format (j/k) and we must move back to the old format so that these threads can be pushed off and we can move on.

  8. #8
    Trucking & Extortion
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    Blah Blah Blah

    All of you Ellsworth riders ting your bikes are so cool. Well if you ask me, I haven't seen a bike cooler than Pete's
    Attached Images Attached Images

  9. #9
    Cleavage Of The Tetons
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    the qoute actually goes...

    "Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels". Just clarifying, although your quote captures the same spirit adequately. It is an apt riff.

  10. #10
    sock puppet
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    yep, same here... no credibility left...

    no go back to your hole steve and turn down that bad boy Justin Timberlake...

    Quote Originally Posted by SSINGA
    Thanks for your oh so constructive posts steve3.

  11. #11
    Cleavage Of The Tetons
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    PS, the reason Titus escaped criticism IS....

    because, as stated by a previous poster, they honored their warranty, as quickly as they could, without question, or dissent, or attempting to blame the customer. The fault was with Kinesis,(only outsourced annodization, who, BTW, produce some Ell. product) and not Titus, and they easily shared the cause, and even pro-actively issued a recall, something that I don't EVER recall E. doing. Period. I am proud to carry Titus. They ROCK. This is not an E. slam, exactly, but an explanation of my experience with BOTH companies. I wish TE luck in revitalizing his policies, I , as a small businessman, have had to review policies and change them as well, as customer demand evolved. Caveat Emptor, Veridad.

  12. #12
    Rolling
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    Quote Originally Posted by msylvan
    ...and the people perpetuating them???

    SUGGESTION-- Don't reply to them at all. Let them have their own post party until they get sick of it and let it drop off the page. Every time one of us responds it pops back up to the front of the board.

    STOP REPLYING!!! Even if you are insulted, as I am, by many of the posts and the tone therein.

    If you are like me, you want the Ellsworth board to be a place we share tips, tricks, suggestions, criticism and complaints in a human and civil matter, and tell each other how cool our bikes are.

    Let's try and make it that.

    Thanks,

    Michael
    What Michael? Are you in denial that this is not happening? I think this discussion is as valid as the postive discussions. No, Let's not make it,
    Quote Originally Posted by msylvan
    ...and tell each other how cool our bikes are.
    The truth is that many folks have had problems with their bikes and warranty issues. I benefitted from knowing about this when I had to deal with warranty issues on my bike in terms of being prepared and approaching Ellsworth. Maybe I was lucky. Was I lucky my frame had two major design defects and it broke? I'm still riding an Ellsworth because my frame was replaced but I was preparing myself to switch brands if it didn't work out. I enjoy my ride but also enjoy hearing all this dirt too.

    This whole issue is very entertaining, especially since Tony joined in and even sucked Sherwood Gibson in it. There is a lot of Passion about it here--both good and bad. The whole history of it is an interesting story and I wrote a burb a few months back regarding Ellsworth, Ventana, and Dreamride. Like I said, "It's going to be interesting where things go from here."

  13. #13
    blame me for missed rides
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    it's a mystery to me why some ellsworth owners consider this board "theirs alone". did i miss anything that was saying "you shall not post in a manufacturer's forum if you don't own one" when i registered the mtbr handle? i assume all potential buyers or the curious who are looking for information should not post in this board then, and neither do they deserve the information regarding warranty or the durability/design of the product. additionally, it seems that these info seekers should only know the good things about the product and how cool they are regarded by respective owners, who just paid a few grands for their new rig.

    btw a lot of people (not restricted to this topic alone) seem to think "since bikes of all brands break, then one brand cannot break more frequently than the others under manufacturer-stated riding conditions", and that "if you don't own XXX, then the facts about XXX that you have gathered are not facts and all you have to say about XXX is crap". how laughable.

    sorry to interrupt your "my bike is cool" dream, it won't happen again.

  14. #14
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    jealousy

    It was a mystery to me why people who don't own an ellsworth bike or never dealt with their cs or would never consider owning an ellsworth bike would be so concerned about ellsworth. I could see Pete's interest in the subject but not the third parties, till now.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by weather
    it's a mystery to me why some ellsworth owners consider this board "theirs alone". did i miss anything that was saying "you shall not post in a manufacturer's forum if you don't own one" when i registered the mtbr handle? i assume all potential buyers or the curious who are looking for information should not post in this board then, and neither do they deserve the information regarding warranty or the durability/design of the product. additionally, it seems that these info seekers should only know the good things about the product and how cool they are regarded by respective owners, who just paid a few grands for their new rig.
    where did you get that impression sir? i, as an ells bike owner, want to know any and all issues that other owners have or info that non-owners may have that will enhance my ownership experience. we just dont appreciate when someone is bashing the brand time and time again without adding any new info. just beating the very dead horse all over again... no need for that. share info with us and move on... i think that is fair... it is a mystery to me why you are saying that...

    Quote Originally Posted by weather
    btw a lot of people (not restricted to this topic alone) seem to think "since bikes of all brands break, then one brand cannot break more frequently than the others under manufacturer-stated riding conditions", and that "if you don't own XXX, then the facts about XXX that you have gathered are not facts and all you have to say about XXX is crap". how laughable.

    sorry to interrupt your "my bike is cool" dream, it won't happen again.
    how can you really comment on manufacturer X CS if you have never talked with them or if you have never used their service... i understand that second hand info may be credible, but where is your interest in all that. Steve owns a broken bike that is of the other manufacturer and yet he is spending more time and energy bashing Ells, brand with wich he doesnt have any touching points. if you know his motive, please do share.

  16. #16
    blame me for missed rides
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    where did you get that impression sir? i, as an ells bike owner, want to know any and all issues that other owners have or info that non-owners may have that will enhance my ownership experience. we just dont appreciate when someone is bashing the brand time and time again without adding any new info. just beating the very dead horse all over again... no need for that. share info with us and move on... i think that is fair... it is a mystery to me why you are saying that...
    please check "anyone considering..." thread's post # 3, 5, and 7. i didn't have enough patience to check the entire thread though. before you start saying "i don't feel that way", let me just tell you that how you feel will not change how i feel or how anyone else feels.

    i believe it is NECESSARY to bring the topic to this board because when potential buyers seek information about ellsworth, they deserve to know this. without this entire discussion, unless someone has followed the boards for years, he would not know just how serious is the problem with ellsworth. i do not think too many people have patience and time for that.

    demanding a change in bad business practice is a legitimate (sp?) move. i do not think ownership is a requirement for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    how can you really comment on manufacturer X CS if you have never talked with them or if you have never used their service... i understand that second hand info may be credible, but where is your interest in all that. Steve owns a broken bike that is of the other manufacturer and yet he is spending more time and energy bashing Ells, brand with wich he doesnt have any touching points. if you know his motive, please do share.
    sorry, facts do not need motives. facts are facts. seeing so many former ellsworth owners/dealers/business partners speaking up is enough for me to conclude about the business practice of a company. you received good CS does not mean others do too. a few happy customers do not equal good CS or business practice in general. so far from what i have seen, unhappy customers <b>who have dealt with ellsworth CS dept</b> even outnumber happy ones.

    what or whether steve has a motive is totally beside the point of discussion. fact is ellsworth has very questionable business practice and very inconsistent CS service, which IS a very important aspect to consider when buying a 2000 dollar frame.

    please realize that what you see as bashing might not seem so to others. saying something is bad when it really is is called speaking the truth. imo what you and truckeelocal and a few other very defensive ellsworth owners have done is really making matters worse. are people who were turned away going to reverse their decisions and buy ellsworth because current owners successfully convicted steve3 for bad motives? no. facts remain and those are what would keep people from choosing ellsworth. until the problems related to those facts are dealt with, the scar on the reputation of ellsworth will remain.

    that's all i wanted to say in this board. good night.
    Last edited by weather; 02-08-2004 at 02:17 AM.

  17. #17
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    by all means

    Quote Originally Posted by weather
    please check "anyone considering..." thread's post # 3, 5, and 7. i didn't have enough patience to check the entire thread though. before you start saying "i don't feel that way", let me just tell you that how you feel will not change how i feel or how anyone else feels.

    i believe it is NECESSARY to bring the topic to this board because when potential buyers seek information about ellsworth, they deserve to know this. without this entire discussion, unless someone has followed the boards for years, he would not know just how serious is the problem with ellsworth. i do not think too many people have patience and time for that.

    demanding a change in bad business practice is a legitimate (sp?) move. i do not think ownership is a requirement for that.



    sorry, facts do not need motives. facts are facts. seeing so many former ellsworth owners/dealers/business partners speaking up is enough for me to conclude about the business practice of a company. you received good CS does not mean others do too. a few happy customers do not equal good CS or business practice in general. so far from what i have seen, unhappy customers <b>who have dealt with ellsworth CS dept</b> even outnumber happy ones.

    what or whether steve has a motive is totally beside the point of discussion. fact is ellsworth has very questionable business practice and very inconsistent CS service, which IS a very important aspect to consider when buying a 2000 dollar frame.

    please realize that what you see as bashing might not seem so to others. saying something is bad when it really is is called speaking the truth. imo what you and truckeelocal and a few other very defensive ellsworth owners have done is really making matters worse. are people who were turned away going to reverse their decisions and buy ellsworth because current owners successfully convicted steve3 for bad motives? no. facts remain and those are what would keep people from choosing ellsworth. until the problems related to those facts are dealt with, the scar on the reputation of ellsworth will remain.

    that's all i wanted to say in this board. good night.
    i absolutely respect the fact that you and anyone else is entitled to your own opinion. I dont have any problems with people sharing their bad and good experiences with their bikes and/or bike manufacturerd. quite contrary, i do want to hear these experiences as the info may improve my own experience. my only point about all this ellsworth issue was the way the information was imposed by few people on this board.

    obviously people are buying ellsworth bikes and will continue buying them regardless of this crap. ellsworth is making good bikes, no one is arguing that fact, i think. if thier bikes werent good, they wouldnt have been in the position where they are on the market.

    were there some instances where customer service could have handled problems better? yes, and i am not arrguing against that. is it neccessary to bring that stuff up on this board? absolutely yes, so that potential customers know and so that ellsworth hears about our concerns and improves as a customer related company. as an ellsworth bike owner, it is in my interest that ellsworth improves not only their bikes but as a whole and i would make an effort to contribute to that positive change and welcome others' efforts.

    as you can see, i am not disputing any of your points.

    what i am disputing ithough, s the way the info was imposed on me (i dont want to speak on behalf of others). i felt that there was personal agenda or ulterior motive on the part of few people that were bashing the brand. that goes beyond good taste as far as i am concerned.

    i hope you understand where i am coming from.

  18. #18
    Riding free's the mind
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    yeah stop the whining...

    I believe the Truth for instance is a tough bike to guarantee to not break. If you own one you'll understand that it can be tempting to push it beyond what it was designed for. Once a big person gets on a Truth and decides to huck, the frame is toast. I really think many of the breakage complaints come from poor judgement on use.

    With that said, I think to get a light weight FS frame, you have to compromise on strength somewhere, you can't get both.

    I think it's a great bike, way beyond my capabilities as a enthusiast trail rider. An honest criticism... too expensive. In fact any of these "custom" frames that sell for almost $2k are just over the top. Ok, I paid for it and no regrets, but when you think about material and build cost, man, that's some profit.

  19. #19

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    Yo Andy!...

    Quote Originally Posted by andy f
    the negative posts regarding Ellsworth continue ad naseum?

    Do any of you remember the fiasco with the Titus Locomotos that were outsourced? Several frames broke, Titus recalled the whole bunch and took longer than promised to get people's replacement frames back to them. Does anyone wonder why Titus was so easily forgiven while negative feelings toward Ellsworth linger on?

    It's not about the bikes and it's not about the warranty.
    Titus did it on their own and paid for it all themselves. Sound a bit different than what some folks have been through with Ellsworth? Yeah they were slow on the replacement, but they even apologized for that. The only thing Ellsworth has done is make excuses with some folks.

    If you can't figure it out you deserve what happens. Personally I think the Ellsworth owner has handled it badly. That many bad reports on a product points to a problem at the top level of management and he could have done the right thing and sucked it up. The feeling is that he's a cheap S.O.B. and won't stand by what he's promised. Not a good thing in any business.

    The Ellsworth brand has always been at the top of the boutique bike makers. It'll be too bad if the attitude of the owner is what does it in. Sometimes people let their egos do all the talking.

  20. #20
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    The Long and Short about the Ellsworth Warranty

    The long and short about the Ellsworth Warranty

    The Short—
    THE WARRANTY.
    Resolving accusations our warranty not being honored is about making the facts available to everyone. The warranty, is available on our website: (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2...20WarrCard.pdf) Anyone interested in the facts can read it for themselves, instead of reading only hearsay and rumors. The execution of the warranty has been directly in line with what is written.

    THE ADVERTISING.
    As to the allegations of false advertising claims that the warranty is something other then has been practiced, etc.? I’ve added an “ad archive” of every ad we’ve placed in North American media, since ‘99/’00 (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/ellsworthianway/index.cfm) You can check it out for your self rather then take everything you read in a MTBR discussion board for fact without checking it out on your own.

    The Long—the rest of the story:
    CUSTOMER SERVICE.

    First, I appreciate customers taking time to relate their positive experiences in the discussion board. Sony did a study in the 80’s every customer service manager knows like scripture. It goes something like this:

    For every satisfied customer, 1 out of 10 will tell of their satisfaction 1 time. On the other hand, 10 out of 10 dissatisfied customers will tell no less then 10 people of their dissatisfaction…10 times!

    As for allegations or accusations of bad customer service. I have three things to say:

    First, no one is perfect, though we’re constantly striving at Ellsworth, no one there has given up taking care of our customers and dealers.

    Second, If there are 10 dissatisfied customers on MTBR (count the negative posts usernames, it’s not that diverse) they are telling 10 times the same dissatisfaction. Your hearing it 10 times amplified. On the other hand, the 10 satisfied Ellsworth owners represent hundreds of satisfied customers.

    Third, You need to know that there’s more to the story that you’re not going to hear from the dissatisfied guy claiming he was treated poorly. Here’s a couple special ones—ask yourself which parts of the story you actually read about on the discussion boards:

    Example #1. What you read in posts: Kid with Joker, warranted seven times. What you don’t hear: Come to find out his friends were taking turns dropping it off the garage roof to the driveway busting it—why not their own bikes? Because “Ellsworth has a lifetime warranty” was the answer. “Our bikes don’t.”

    Example #2. What you don’t hear: Guy drops bike on rock while lifting it over fence when it’s pretty new. Dents downtube—sends us a picture, we say, we’d watch it, but wouldn’t recommend buying a replacement right away, though it undoubtedly is a stress riser, he may ride it for years without any problems, and he could always buy a replacement at some time in the future if it became necessary. He actually posts on MTBR that he rides the heck out of it, and even despite the big dent he put in it, it’s holding up great for multiple seasons. Original dent eventually does generates stress cracks. He wants it warranted for free. He’s mad because he has to pay for replacement parts—What you read on discussion board is a rant on MTBR—flaming company for weak bikes and bad customer service.

    Example #3. Guy buys bike used, sight unseen, (MTBR, Ebay…buyer beware) bike breaks. He’s second owner—no applicable warranty. Shock that it came with isn’t a Truth part number, too short, worn out. He is offered to buy replacement parts and shock at a deep discount. He’s mad because he didn’t get shock (wear component) and frame (not original owner) for free. Flames us for not honoring warranty on a used bike and a wear component.

    Example #4. Here’s a super reasonable case I just handled myself as it isn’t very common and I didn’t want any misunderstandings about what was to be done: Three year old front triangle failure. Not current version or technology of the Truth—no like parts in stock to warranty with. Despite the fact that our destructive testing and accumulated research shows a better then 90% correlation with under inflated shock, or hydraulic lock due to lockout left on, or worn out air shock, heavier riders and large frames. User set up is considered the owner/operator responsibility—as stated in warranty and owners manual and FAQ on website. In spite of this, we are willing to warranty the front triangle with a brand new one to the original owner no charge, once with an explanation letter about shock set up and use. However, shock lengths and rockers have changed (longer shock for lower shock shaft velocity and lower leverage ratio rockers to ease the demand on the shocks—specifically benefits heavier riders ride quality and increases durability). Owner is offered to replace his three year old and likely worn out shock for dealer cost, and purchase the new rocker assembly for a deep discount off what it would be at retail (necessary to accommodate the newer shock, if something like this had happened within the first year, we’d have provided the rocker at no charge). Cost to upgrade entire frame after three years of regular use to a brand new 2004 Truth…approximately $500. Or you could look at it as a $1,500 credit toward a brand new frame (“current technology” warrantee language).

    Let’s take this last example and look at it, because here in lies a few of the frustrations with the current warranty that I am aware of. I am aware of three of these situations where I was unable to come to a meeting of the mind with the owner. Never the less, I did what was disclosed clearly in the warranty. I don’t know how to remedy the hard feelings, as what was done above is exactly what the warranty states would be done.

    This is where that whole bad rap about customer service and not honoring warranty on MTBR came from in the first place I think. This doesn't happen like this very often. But when it does, most of the time, folks are ecstatic about $500 for a brand new frame. Occasionally, someone is indignant about the $500--didn't read the warranty, or maybe doesn't understand products must evolve and change to become better over the years, like software, cars, ovens, motorcycles, shoes, and yes...bikes. And they continue to rant and complain on MTBR so that you'd think the whole world has broken Ellsworth's...and Ellsworth blows them off when it happens. These rants are half-truth’s of a vocal few. As to the idea that I change products to avoid warranty that’s ridiculous.

    You can categorize the number of times product evolutions have happened and recognize these MTBR rants if you know what incompatibilities have happened in the last decade. The allegation that I change products so I don’t have to warranty, or can make money by selling current parts at a deep discount them is untrue. Only a very small percentage of the bikes we ship world wide ever have problems, why would I spend the 18 months of R&D and the cost of retooling JUST to skirt coughing up a few free frames to warranty in the course of the year? The concept propagated by several discussion board mavens is preposterously confused and lacks any mathematical, numeric, or financial reason whatsoever.

    Here is an actual list of the product changes that involve some degree of incompatibility, only one is complete incompatibility, and we offered upgrade programs to help. Check it out.

    1996 Truth’s changed from 80mm of travel to 100mm of travel. Front triangle and shock changed so that if you had a front triangle warranty on a bike before 1997, you had to buy a new shock at dealer cost to make the frame go again. For new shock at dealer cost, you got more travel, Easton tubes, lighter stiffer stronger frame, and brand new shock.

    2000 Truth’s changed completely for the first time in almost 8 years. We maintained warranty replacements until about 2002—then parts just ran out. At that time we offered a half price upgrade to the new Instant Center Tracking, cartridge-bearing Truth to any Ellsworth owner to keep them on current and warrantee-able parts. We took a lot of heat from dealers on that, who expressed their concerns that these folks upgrading should’ve been back to the dealer to buy the new bikes, as the old one’s were likely worn out and should be replaced at the dealer. We continued to offer the half price upgrade well through
    2002. And dropped it to about a 35% discount the next year. By then the bikes being upgraded were well over three years old and not current technology, though there are still many of these old Truth’s out there that are loved and work great, and I still maintain inventory of service parts (bushing pivot kits available on website).

    2004 Truth’s started shipping in mid 2003 utilizing the longer shocks and lower leverage ratio rockers. (better ride quality, especially for heavier riders, increased durability due to lower leverage ratio).

    2002 Id’s got a new disk specific seat stay. 2001 (first year) had canti stays. Both worked great, but the disk specific stay was in high demand. We offered the opportunity for owners to upgrade at about 40% discount. Again took heat from dealers, AND took heat from owners who asserted that it was better then the old stay (which worked fine) and therefore the old stay was defective and we should give them the new stay for free—that the upgrade charge was greedy! Most people were glad to have the opportunity to upgrade the bike to disks and more tire clearance for a couple of hundred bucks. This had no affect on how Id’s were or are warranted. What you read on MTBR is the old stay was defective (not true) and we were charging to replace defective stay. The fact was the upgrade was optional—not mandatory, and the canti-boss stay worked as designed and intended on the original bike. Upgrade offer was optional.

    2003 Joker gets major upgrade after four years of production. Longer Travel, stiffer, stronger, etc.. Original owner gets upgraded on any part that fails, but would have to potentially buy a shock for it to get the full benefit of the new design.

    That’s it. I think in each case the upgrade path is more then valuable for the associated cost, IF ANY that might be applicable. The above is the ENTIRE story of how warranty is handled if parts have evolved. No more complicated then that. Again, if you read something that deviates much from the above—ask yourself what part of the story your not reading on the discussion board.

    In the last four years, we have made more alterations, or improvements to the Truth then we did in the first 6 years of production. Mostly because we sell more, and the companies resources for R&D have made it possible to break new ground with the suspension technology, which is why when you get your new '04 Ellsworth, your just going to LAUGH at the mass media frenzy stuff…concerning the “newest” suspension system. And ask yourself “what’s the possibility the “latest, greatest, newest” design will still be here in it’s current form in 5-10 years like the Instant Center Tracking four bar link has been.”

    Is there a problem understanding the warranty? I’m not sure. I’ll ramble on a bit more about it, and please take a look at the warranty on our websites FAQ section, or at the direct links above and below and email me what you think at [email protected] .

    I do think the current warranty is more complex to administrate then other warrantees, I think this stems mostly from my desire to stand behind the craftsmanship of the frame for the lifetime of the frame. Unfortunately, this gets complicated—I admit. Here's why the current warranty is potentially complicated, and may well be flawed if it’s so commonly misunderstood:

    First, let's say a guy is using the frame pretty hard. Which is OK, but his use is going to fatigue the material faster then another's use that might be more on the XC end of things. “A Truth is NOT a free ride frame.” You can see by definition alone, prescribed, or designed use is very difficult to define--what is XC? What is Freeride?...etc. No human can define it the same twice and agree with another human. Thus, I've determined that in this respect, my "lifetime" warranty is flawed and probably impossible to administrate without pissing people off at some point.

    Second, it is impractical if not impossible to spend time and oh so little precious financial resources to manufacture and inventory parts for every Truth I've made in the last 10 years. If I never changed or improved on them, no one would want them. If I change or improve it, sometimes there is incompatibility. In MY mind (again, not everyone would agree, though many have) the opportunity to ride the heck out of a truth for three years and get a BRAND new one for a deep discount is a GREAT deal. Again, think of another industry... Drive the heck out of an off road truck, and get a new one for half price! What a deal! But again, not everyone agrees with me. However, many owners have taken advantage of this to keep fresh equipment--that causes troubles with Dealers who want to sell new stuff at full price when a person has worn out the old frame (lifetime doesn’t mean it can’t be worn out). And you can WEAR OUT a Truth...although almost everything on it can be maintained, if there are parts available. It is the lifetime of the frame...and though the warranty specifically states that if the replacement part isn't available (or that frames lifetime is over) a "credit towards current product will be issued", folks get mad that we did EXACTLY what the warranty says we would do...!? In this respect also, the perception of my warranty causes problems and misunderstandings.

    Change the warranty? Help us decide. The warranty is for you—I want to give the owners and prospective owners what they want.

    If the warranty changed to a strait two years, then if we exceed expectations, folks will be happy. As it is now, due primarily to the two issues above, we risk falling short of someone's expectations on what is a generous and liberal warranty in this industry (read the collection of industry warranties in FAQ section of www.ellsworthbikes.com see links). Pretty much ALL or ANY manufacturing defect, or material defect shows up within the first year. After that, it's probably fatigue, or misuse, or something. And for the few rare times it's clearly a defect of some kind--even if it's outside 2 years--won't the guy be happy that we stepped up and honored it anyway out of warranty?!

    I know in my heart, and have verified with destructive testing and by FEAing others designs up and applying the same dynamic loading to my designs and theirs that Ellsworth bikes are more durable for the prescribed use then any in the industry by as much as double. AND they are all lighter then the same prescribed use bikes of other brands...that’s something we’re proud of and it is proof of some sweet and expensive engineering, design and materials. But nothing lasts forever, and while I'm perfectly willing to do a lifetime of the product warranty—will owners read warranty so they don’t just end up pissed off when the situation arrives that they've gotta buy replacement parts to keep it good? Please help us decide: [email protected]

    Just like my wonderful Dodge Diesel Truck. 90,000 miles of wonderful service, and I need new shocks for the second time, new springs, a bed liner...a door seal, a dome light switch--stuff needs maintenance. It's a scientific fact called atrophy, right? Bike frames are not exempt from this. Any way, when a man thinks about it like this, it's all good. But too often, as this discussion board seems to attest to folks have had false expectations concerning the warranty. And it does makes me sad, because I care, and my staff cares, and we do our level best to take care of our customers.

    Currently, the discussion boards are not an efficient way to collect honest and insightful opinions. It would be great if they could be, but that’s not what I’m seeing in the discussion boards at this time. So you’ll need to collect your thoughts and email them to [email protected].

    *Download the ads—see there’s no misrepresentation (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/ellsworthianway/index.cfm);
    *Download the current warranty, let me know if any of it is unclear or if you think the way we’re handing or have handled warrantees is not inline with what we said we’d do (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2...20WarrCard.pdf);
    *Check out this collection of sample industry warrantees http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/S...Warranties.pdf ) how do these compare to the Ellsworth Warranty?
    *Finally, take a look at my potentially “more easily interpreted warranty” (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2...20WarrCard.pdf). Is this a better, clearer warranty?

    Email me your thoughts: [email protected]

    I value your input, as Ellsworth owners, as potential owners, or even if your not interested in an Ellsworth just as a fellow cyclist. I’m listening to your input and opinions to make owning a bike with my name on it a splendid experience. Even if you’re ranting on the discussion boards, and profess to know me well enough to hate me, I invite you to harness that energy and email me insightful and honest opinions about the material I’ve made available for everyone’s review. Include your contact information; the most useful suggestions or comments may receive a token of my appreciation for participating in providing valuable focus on the potential improvements or upgrades to the Ellsworth Warranty.

    In the end, it's about making people happy, healthy, and able to enjoy the planet in an environmentally healthy way. I'm a firm believer that a man reaps what he sews, and when I'm done on this planet, I will be pleased in the knowledge that I've sewn seeds of making many people healthy and happy, and not obliterated the planet in the process.

    I really appreciate your expressing your views, and your willingness to consider what I've put in print here. I remain available to any suggestions you might have to make the experience better. Thanks in advance for your time and consideration in this matter.

    Sincerely,
    Tony Ellsworth

  21. #21
    Te mortuo heres tibi sim?
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    ahem. it's "sows" and "sown".

    your spelling gives that line a very different tone and meaning. heh. lol!

    back to lurker mode.....laughing about all this warrantee stuff........
    Florence Nightingale's Stormtrooper

  22. #22
    Jm.
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    2002 Id’s got a new disk specific seat stay. 2001 (first year) had canti stays. Both worked great, but the disk specific stay was in high demand. We offered the opportunity for owners to upgrade at about 40% discount. Again took heat from dealers, AND took heat from owners who asserted that it was better then the old stay (which worked fine) and therefore the old stay was defective and we should give them the new stay for free—that the upgrade charge was greedy! Most people were glad to have the opportunity to upgrade the bike to disks and more tire clearance for a couple of hundred bucks. This had no affect on how Id’s were or are warranted. What you read on MTBR is the old stay was defective (not true) and we were charging to replace defective stay. The fact was the upgrade was optional—not mandatory, and the canti-boss stay worked as designed and intended on the original bike. Upgrade offer was optional.
    If the MTBR stay was not defective, then why the hell did it break? What about all the other ones that broke?


    How much lying is enough?

    Complete denial is probably the best indicator of your state of dillusion. It's a rare situation that it will be 100% anyone's fault...except for ellsworth, because ellsworth can do no wrong (according to tony).

  23. #23
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    Your experience is the very reason...

    Quote Originally Posted by bs101
    The reason Titus escaped fairly unscathed, is they didn't try to charge for the warranty. I know at least of four Loco's that were effected. Don't get me wrong, i like the way my truth rides, but when i broke the seat tube and sent it back for warranty, i didn't expect to be told that, one the failure was due to the rear shocks inadequacies, and two, i would need to fork out 200 or so for a romic in order for the warranty to continue. The shock was spec'd on the bike by ellsworth and therefore if it was a problem to begin with should be fixed by ellsworth not the consumer. They did try to do the appropriate thing by offering cost, but one I can prodeal it cheaper, and OE spec is even less than that. I think that in itself is wrong because they're making money on that. Currently I'm looking to get another bike that's a little beefier than the truth, and the Id fills that nitch that i'm looking for, but i have serious questions to whether or not support that behavior.
    Is THE reason why I didn't buy a Truth.

  24. #24
    bald
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quattro
    Is THE reason why I didn't buy a Truth.
    Thats why the 5-spot is on the way. I wish it had bearing pivots, but ...

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by bs101
    Thats why the 5-spot is on the way. I wish it had bearing pivots, but ...
    Why do you wish it had bearing pivots?

  26. #26
    bald
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    Why do you wish it had bearing pivots?
    Past expierences. I had a Quasi years ago that had a bushing main pivot. It would swell, and drag. Currently I have an SLX, which I like, it just isn't a great all around/everywhere bike (it weighs 37lbs or so). So, I thought I would try a 5-spot. I liked the way the Truth rode, but ... Before that brushfire takes off again. I know the problem I had witht the Quasi won't happen to the 5-spot, it would be kind of cool if the used rollers bearings for higher loads.

  27. #27
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bs101
    Past expierences. I had a Quasi years ago that had a bushing main pivot. It would swell, and drag. Currently I have an SLX, which I like, it just isn't a great all around/everywhere bike (it weighs 37lbs or so). So, I thought I would try a 5-spot. I liked the way the Truth rode, but ... Before that brushfire takes off again. I know the problem I had witht the Quasi won't happen to the 5-spot, it would be kind of cool if the used rollers bearings for higher loads.
    turners burshing is actually going to take a lot more load than a bearing. To get a bearing that will take a load like that it need to be a flat type bearing, or needle(there are other kinds, actually there are nearly endless kinds of bearings, but for simplicitys sake I wont get into that) and those kind of bearings are way more expensive and take a lot better engineering to make work. It's not that bearings are bad, but bushings will take a LOT of load, and iwth turners grease ports, there is defiintely no need for a bearing system, and turner probably gets a lot of rigidity out of the bushings that would either be lost, or drive price way up to make the same, with bearings.

  28. #28
    keep the shiny side up!
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    go to the turner forum and talk turners!
    thread hijackers!

  29. #29
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    Shut up, get a life or go ride your bike

    Unless you own a company that deals with bikes, you are proof positive that people who post here talk more than they ride. Me included.

    My truth has made it 5000 miles in the last 2+ years- sure it has dents and a new shock but I wouldn't expect anything less. I beat the shite out of it and I don't have a single scar; well maybe one but that was because of the tires.

    If you treat your bike wrong, it'll come back to bite you- avoid the american way, take responsiblity for your actions and if you are trying to take advantage of a business owner, accept it when it turns out that he is smarter than you. If he knows how and why you did what you did to your bike because you posted it here, give up because you are dumber than dirt. Come back with a better plan, that's why they invented ebay.

    Now I'm pissed I even spent this long here.
    Go fast, take chances!

  30. #30
    Jm.
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    Idea!

    Quote Originally Posted by Salida-in
    Unless you own a company that deals with bikes, you are proof positive that people who post here talk more than they ride. Me included.

    My truth has made it 5000 miles in the last 2+ years- sure it has dents and a new shock but I wouldn't expect anything less. I beat the shite out of it and I don't have a single scar; well maybe one but that was because of the tires.

    If you treat your bike wrong, it'll come back to bite you- avoid the american way, take responsiblity for your actions and if you are trying to take advantage of a business owner, accept it when it turns out that he is smarter than you. If he knows how and why you did what you did to your bike because you posted it here, give up because you are dumber than dirt. Come back with a better plan, that's why they invented ebay.

    Now I'm pissed I even spent this long here.
    No, you shut up and go ride.

  31. #31
    TT.
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    Are we being twelve here again
    I Ride, I Know

  32. #32
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    how many people have been "screwed" by ellsworth within the first year that they owned their bike? how about within the first two years? this isn't a rhetorical question- i'm curious, since i'm considering buying an ID... i am, however, wondering how many of the warranty screw-jobs that people are upset over happened outside the timeframe of a warranty that a competing company would offer.

    also, MBA said the original ID seatstay was defective. they also said that the specialized roll-x is one of the best mountain bike inventions of the last 5 years. given the choice, i'm gonna believe tony ellsworth rather than RC.

  33. #33
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    more importantly, how many satisfied customers

    and riders that own Ellsworth are there out there? i'd say plenty.

    there will always be few owners that think they should have been treated better, rightfully or not.

    I dont think Ellsworth is out there to screw it's customers. If i were you, i would not have any concerns about warranty, particularly now that it is clarified and made very simple to read and support.

    i am sure you will hear different opinions on this board. it is your choice to make at the end of the day.

    i made my own choice. It is '04 Truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan
    how many people have been "screwed" by ellsworth within the first year that they owned their bike? how about within the first two years? this isn't a rhetorical question- i'm curious, since i'm considering buying an ID... i am, however, wondering how many of the warranty screw-jobs that people are upset over happened outside the timeframe of a warranty that a competing company would offer.

    also, MBA said the original ID seatstay was defective. they also said that the specialized roll-x is one of the best mountain bike inventions of the last 5 years. given the choice, i'm gonna believe tony ellsworth rather than RC.

  34. #34
    rr
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan
    how many people have been "screwed" by ellsworth within the first year that they owned their bike? how about within the first two years? this isn't a rhetorical question- i'm curious, since i'm considering buying an ID... i am, however, wondering how many of the warranty screw-jobs that people are upset over happened outside the timeframe of a warranty that a competing company would offer.

    also, MBA said the original ID seatstay was defective. they also said that the specialized roll-x is one of the best mountain bike inventions of the last 5 years. given the choice, i'm gonna believe tony ellsworth rather than RC.
    I believe MBA said their ID's seatstay broke and TE said that had never happened before when it had. I'm personally very satisfied w/ my Ell., but he obviously p***** off a lot of people when his 01' Truths were breaking and the issues with the first IDs.

    The whole thing with the 04' Truth design change and charging people to warranty their broken 01's was wrong considering the lifetime warranty. They replaced my broken 01' at no cost last summer with an 03', but at some point they ran out of 03's and started charging for 04's.

    By the way, I think MBA is a good mag. Their bike reviews are a bit biased but they have a lot of solid wrenching and riding tips. Their flashy, but they are also real riders and RC made one of the best designs back in the mid 90's, so he knows bikes.

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    and riders that own Ellsworth are there out there? i'd say plenty.

    there will always be few owners that think they should have been treated better, rightfully or not.

    I dont think Ellsworth is out there to screw it's customers. If i were you, i would not have any concerns about warranty, particularly now that it is clarified and made very simple to read and support.

    i am sure you will hear different opinions on this board. it is your choice to make at the end of the day.

    i made my own choice. It is '04 Truth.

    ellsworth honored my warrenty claim, and even upgraded the replacement.

  36. #36
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    By the way, I think MBA is a good mag. Their bike reviews are a bit biased but they have a lot of solid wrenching and riding tips. .
    pfffffffffft (I just spit out water through my nose!!!!)


    I've seen rediculous tech advice given, rediculous reviews (hey, just check out the latest mag with the trek fuel 90, the one where they call it a "trail bike" about 30 times yet it has XC angles and only 3" of travel).

    Sorry, it's not just that their biased, it's that they make huge errors, give terrible advice, and have some pretty crazy wrenching tips...

    Anyhow, this thread went off on a tangent from the beginning. It's not the "warrenty posts", it's simply a slimeball company, the only company that includes "tire compression" in advertised travel, and "sagged" geometry....

  37. #37
    rr
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    pfffffffffft (I just spit out water through my nose!!!!)


    I've seen rediculous tech advice given, rediculous reviews (hey, just check out the latest mag with the trek fuel 90, the one where they call it a "trail bike" about 30 times yet it has XC angles and only 3" of travel).

    Sorry, it's not just that their biased, it's that they make huge errors, give terrible advice, and have some pretty crazy wrenching tips...

    Anyhow, this thread went off on a tangent from the beginning. It's not the "warrenty posts", it's simply a slimeball company, the only company that includes "tire compression" in advertised travel, and "sagged" geometry....
    I know whats BS and whats not and yes MBA has some BS in it, but so does Bike and Dirt Rag. I tried Bike for a year and was disappointed so I didn't renew, I enjoy Dirt Rag the most and it's probably the best one out there right now but they have improved as of late. MBA has gotten worse lately but I don't think they are as bad as you make them out to be, you have to look past the BS like when Dirt Rag printed an editorial a few issues back pushing their political beliefs on us, that was enough to make me cancel my subscription-almost.

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    <sarcasm mode>

    Jm, with your infinite knowledge of the bike world and your ability to be impartial wouldn't it be great for you to write a magazine and let the entire biking community benefit from your experience and knowledge???

    </sarcasm mode>

  39. #39
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    oops...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    pfffffffffft (I just spit out water through my nose!!!!)
    you are left with no branis now... next time be careful.

    You now qualify to start practicing law though...

    ;-P

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    you are left with no branis now... next time be careful.

    You now qualify to start practicing law though...

    ;-P
    Or writing magazine reviews.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    you are left with no branis now... next time be careful.

    You now qualify to start practicing law though...

    ;-P
    Hey I resent that.
    Riding slowly since 1977.

  42. #42
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    I've read almost this entire thread and I laugh at most of you. Most. It's just funny. I agree with what some of Tony said (1 person says good, 10 say bad, cuz that's part of human nature). Being from the sales industry (not bike related) and have to warranty products myself after "abuse", or as they say, "I was just using it...". The manufacturers in my industry say the same thing that Tony does (like I said, NOT bike related) about how it broke and under what conditions. So, yeah, warranty is the BIGGEST BS part of being in sales or owning a business because EVERYONE wants things for free, even three years later, it IS difficult and there are fine lines because if everything is always for free, then the company won't make $$ and go under. Every company. And no one reads the warranty. When you install your Hayes, did you read your warranty? What about your fork? What about your TV or DVD? What about your own car?? Do you even know what is covered under your car's warranty and when some parts coverage is gone? I bet 90% of you don't, but when your everyday transportation breaks, you scream at the dealer to fix it for free because that car has a warranty...You have to think about it...

    My user name is sugardare, and don't have either of those bikes anymore. One... The Sugar... Ohmygosh, BROKE!! The Dare, 4 years old, ran like a top.. But I own a Joker now. Yeah, I know all about the Ellsworth "warranty" stories, some very well. But Y'know, I own a VW, my second one. My girlfriend does, her friends do, my friends own three. Some of them have had major problems with their VW's time and time again, and will never buy another VW...Had crappy service from the dealer, etc... I never have... and bought another. So, I hope this puts some things into perspective before someone rants about how "bad" service is. Try owning a company some day and give everything away for free... Everything breaks, and the "lifetime" warranty, like your car, is usually for the orginal owner unless specified by the manuf that it is transferrable.

    If you believe everything you read and hear (CNN, FOX, MSNBC), without understanding the whole story and doing your own research (other than MTBR) it's time for you to go for a ride and get away, and wake up.

  43. #43
    Col
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    Quote Originally Posted by sugardare
    I've read almost this entire thread and I laugh at most of you. Most. It's just funny. I agree with what some of Tony said (1 person says good, 10 say bad, cuz that's part of human nature). Being from the sales industry (not bike related) and have to warranty products myself after "abuse", or as they say, "I was just using it...". The manufacturers in my industry say the same thing that Tony does (like I said, NOT bike related) about how it broke and under what conditions. So, yeah, warranty is the BIGGEST BS part of being in sales or owning a business because EVERYONE wants things for free, even three years later, it IS difficult and there are fine lines because if everything is always for free, then the company won't make $$ and go under. Every company. And no one reads the warranty. When you install your Hayes, did you read your warranty? What about your fork? What about your TV or DVD? What about your own car?? Do you even know what is covered under your car's warranty and when some parts coverage is gone? I bet 90% of you don't, but when your everyday transportation breaks, you scream at the dealer to fix it for free because that car has a warranty...You have to think about it...

    My user name is sugardare, and don't have either of those bikes anymore. One... The Sugar... Ohmygosh, BROKE!! The Dare, 4 years old, ran like a top.. But I own a Joker now. Yeah, I know all about the Ellsworth "warranty" stories, some very well. But Y'know, I own a VW, my second one. My girlfriend does, her friends do, my friends own three. Some of them have had major problems with their VW's time and time again, and will never buy another VW...Had crappy service from the dealer, etc... I never have... and bought another. So, I hope this puts some things into perspective before someone rants about how "bad" service is. Try owning a company some day and give everything away for free... Everything breaks, and the "lifetime" warranty, like your car, is usually for the orginal owner unless specified by the manuf that it is transferrable.

    If you believe everything you read and hear (CNN, FOX, MSNBC), without understanding the whole story and doing your own research (other than MTBR) it's time for you to go for a ride and get away, and wake up.
    Fire up SD. Yeah I agree and I own a 15yr old Skoda extreme rally pack. So before any of you start up try driving something that you need to work on before you start it - and surprise surprise it ran out of warranty - Jeez Tony can I bit#H to you about that.

  44. #44
    rr
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    If you really think Ells. has not done anything wrong with their warranty then please tell me what you sell so I won't buy it!

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    If you really think Ells. has not done anything wrong with their warranty then please tell me what you sell so I won't buy it!
    I hope you will never have to buy something from me, because I sell wheelchairs. And the similarity between the bicycle industry and mine is eerie. Yeah, maybe Ells needs to revamp their warranty and make it clearer to those without a high school education, but the simple fact is you have to ask yourself questions when you send a product back for repair/warranty and expect the worst, with everything. I have customers that abuse their chairs and claim it just broke, some just do. That's life. I send it out for warranty, the manufacturers look at the product and judge where the stress point was, the metal fatigue, and welds. They KNOW how their prodcuts break, under what conditions, etc, and on a case by case basis (as Tony mentioned he had to deal with a customer) manuf will replace for free or have to charge becuase of abuse to a product (like dropping from house rooftop). If too many break or they feel that there could possible be an issue on larger models with weight, they will made modifications to that line. Like the seat stays on the Id. The stress of a disc created more pressure at a point on the triangulated stay and some broke. The vee brake was still ok, so there wasn't an issue. You want a new one, but yours isn't broke? Buy one... My Dare had the weld break at the disc mount, and it was replaced for nota. That was a weld, orginal owner, and I was using an 8" disc. And aluminum does fatigue. It does not have the flexibility like Ti or steel, so Al has a life span shorter than those. Expect your aluminum frame to give at some time or another and if the product isn't made anymore, well, expect to pay to rebuild the thing. But if your product is five years old, maybe four, replace it. The aluminum and welds won't last forever. This is all just common sense. Like I said, wheelchairs are very similar to bikes since they are make out the same materials, have a wieght capacity, and "shelf-life". Heck, half the bike industry parts are on wheelchairs. After 4-5 years, I suggest to my customers that they should replace their frames (if it's not Ti) on their wheelchairs to prevent these type of issues. Manufacturers won't tell you their frames will only last for 5 years, that's just not good business. But reality, man. My Dare was 4 years old, and I knew it was just time before it broke cuz I rode it like I stole it, so I upgraded before I had to deal with the "bad service" and have to "pay" to upgrade to a 9" Dare after mine broke.

    So give Ellsworth a break. If you hate it so much, go get something else and praise their mega-corporation warranties.

    Maybe common sense isn't so common...

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    i apologize if i offended you...

    Quote Originally Posted by CDMC
    Hey I resent that.
    i was just joking... and couldnt resist...

    i know that there are smart and honest lawyers out there..

  47. #47
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    drop off the roof top...

    wow, was the wheelchair tossed off the roof top or the rider did a drop off the roof top... that is pretty extreme sport, isn't it? :-P



    Quote Originally Posted by sugardare
    and on a case by case basis (as Tony mentioned he had to deal with a customer) So give Ellsworth a break. If you hate it so much, go get something else and praise their mega-corporation warranties.

    Maybe common sense isn't so common...

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    wow, was the wheelchair tossed off the roof top or the rider did a drop off the roof top... that is pretty extreme sport, isn't it? :-P
    Well, that would be a bike dropping off a roof, sorry, I was referencing Tony E.. :-) But what I've seen these guys do is amazing. Like downhill MTB in a wheelchair... That's cajones.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by sugardare

    So give Ellsworth a break. If you hate it so much, go get something else and praise their mega-corporation warranties.

    Maybe common sense isn't so common...
    Would you give Ells. a break if you had to pay to have your 9 month old frame warrantied? What if it was the 2nd time it broke in 2 years? What if they would not do anything to help you get into a diff. frame(something beefier)? What if they bad-mouthed you on this forum when you posted about your warranty experience?

    You are right about one thing, SOMEONE needs more common sense.

  50. #50
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    The following comments are about the industry in general, not EW especially. They've taken measures to change things and deserve credit for doing so. I won' t comment on issues past as it's been driven into the ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by sugardare
    .... Expect your aluminum frame to give at some time or another and if the product isn't made anymore, well, expect to pay to rebuild the thing. But if your product is five years old, maybe four, replace it. The aluminum and welds won't last forever. This is all just common sense.
    I understand warranty service is difficult, and that there are certainly customer abuse cases. But IMO I think it's a little unfair to assume most claims are abuse. Especially since mfgrs seem to assume most MTBs end up hanging in the garage unused. As far as complaints outnumbering complements...well it dosen't appear that way in every forum but then this is just MTBR. But that's all subjective so I won't bother debating that.


    Quote Originally Posted by sugardare
    ...After 4-5 years, I suggest to my customers that they should replace their frames (if it's not Ti) on their wheelchairs to prevent these type of issues. Manufacturers won't tell you their frames will only last for 5 years, that's just not good business.
    I do find myself in a different frame of mind (pardon the expression) regarding frame life and warranty. If the product isn't designed, expected or intended to last beyond X years then it and it's warranty should be market to reflect that. Besides the fact that it's only fair, it helps manage the customer's expectations and reduces the opportunity for conflict. Otherwise it's like a Mfgr is trying to have it both ways...attracting the customers with the preception of durability, and later explaining that they should not have expected so much.

    When I shopped for my frame I asked the prespective mfgrs specific questions regarding my weight, riding style, intended terrain and expected service life. I also asked directly if this was the right frame for what I wanted and expected. Should I, in contrast to any particular answer, assume under "common sense" something different than what they responded with?

    Quote Originally Posted by sugardare
    ...But reality, man. My Dare was 4 years old, and I knew it was just time before it broke cuz I rode it like I stole it, so I upgraded before I had to deal with the "bad service" and have to "pay" to upgrade to a 9" Dare after mine broke.
    Just curious, what became of that 4-year old frame? Did you sell it, or return it to EW for a proper disposal?
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

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    This guy has the right to complain.

    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    Would you give Ells. a break if you had to pay to have your 9 month old frame warrantied? What if it was the 2nd time it broke in 2 years? What if they would not do anything to help you get into a diff. frame(something beefier)? What if they bad-mouthed you on this forum when you posted about your warranty experience?

    You are right about one thing, SOMEONE needs more common sense.
    Leave rroeder alone. He has endured more problems with his EW frame than most could deal with without going postal. If he has earned anything, it is the right to speak his mind on this very subject.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    Leave rroeder alone. He has endured more problems with his EW frame than most could deal with without going postal. If he has earned anything, it is the right to speak his mind on this very subject.
    Thanks damion but I wouldn't let this make me go postal, as long as I'm riding I'm happy, but when I read stuff like sugardare posted I'm kinda compelled to say something. I'm sure most would agree sugardare is being a bit naive about their warranty and how they have handled it.

  53. #53
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    Isnt it a free world................This string is like watching paint dry or the grass grow.........And I know you will say well dont look then!!!!!!!!!!

    All should be able to say as they please, we are all big, bad and ugly enough to take what we need to take from the information presented.

    If I was rroeder I would be well pis.....ed, and he deserves to be, sometimes two wrongs dont make a right, but if he can let off steam by posting, then post away...............
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    Good job! Economics

    If you want strong warrenties with no questions asked you need to consider a Big Corperate company like Giant, Specialized, Trek, Small frame makers have a huge disadvantage when it comes to warrenty claims, Warrenty to most means heres another one no questions asked. I would really hate to see Ellsworth go under like Ibis so I have acceped this warrenty practices at the door. With Ellsworth scrutnizing warrenty claims like that he has certainly put himself at a disadvantage. What you guys gotta realize is that Ellsworth's finacial profile is probably not that good therefore they are going to overly scrutinize all the claims submitted. I have never met the man but I feel he is far from greedy, if he were he would sell his company to a large corperation for a huge profit. Trust me this guy coudent be greedy cause an uphill battle agenst big corperations is a hard way to get rich. All this said I hope I dont have any warrenty issues regarding the 7in rear rotors I'm installing on my new Moment!
    Big JuJu

  55. #55
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    Well, it's like I've said many times before;

    Ellsworth wants the marketing power of the "10 year warrenty" or whatever, but they don't want to pony up and really offer what it entails.

    Seriously, E would have a lot more respect if they actually had common-sense warrenties and weight-limits.

    You are correct that it is "tough" for smaller companies, but they only make it harder on themselves when they offer a "quasi"-warrenty, never admit to product flaws/failures, lie, and make unrealistic claims about product life and weight limits.

    Lastly, while it is "tough" for the smaller companies, I think there is PLENTY of evidence out there to indicate that small companies do not have to use the above bad-business tactics to survive. Turner, Titus, and Yeti are just a few of these.

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    Wink Being no stranger to warrenty issues

    I've been with Mercedes Benz for 10 years now and have seen a significant decline in the quality and warrenty coverage provided. Ya wanna know the reason? I'ts a decline in profits. This is a fact. I know I'm in the car business and this is the bike business but these are the facts. I would have probably been one of those truth owners if I would have bought a truth about 3 years ago. Ellsworth markets there bikes to an aggresive crowd by showing pictures of a guy jumping off a clif on a Dare on the brochure. The truth buyer is therfore inspired to ride his 25 lb crosscountry bike like a Dare. I think your right on the money jm. with 10 years being unrealistic, I will for sure sell my Moment frame 3 years from now. Not because it's not a good product but because it will have seen the best years of it's service life at that point. Hope that dosen't make me a complete scum bag cause I'm gonna squeek the good life out of a bike and then un load it to someone who want's to save a buck or two.
    Big JuJu

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big JuJu
    Ellsworth markets there bikes to an aggresive crowd by showing pictures of a guy jumping off a clif on a Dare on the brochure. The truth buyer is therfore inspired to ride his 25 lb crosscountry bike like a Dare.
    This is what Ells. wants you to believe, that somehow all these Truths broke because of rider abuse-BS! It was the seat tube defect, thats where most broke and thats why they broke-not rider error.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    This is what Ells. wants you to believe, that somehow all these Truths broke because of rider abuse-BS! It was the seat tube defect, thats where most broke and thats why they broke-not rider error.
    Yes Juju, blaming the riders is akin to blaming ML drivers for the defective harmonic balancers, bad early fuel pumps, power steering pumps, window switches, machine gun door locks, etc.

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    Smile Hey bring that sucker in it's all gravy

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    Yes Juju, blaming the riders is akin to blaming ML drivers for the defective harmonic balancers, bad early fuel pumps, power steering pumps, window switches, machine gun door locks, etc.
    Is this the stuff that's gone wrong with your ML? When that harmonic balencer comes apart ouch big damage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big JuJu
    Is this the stuff that's gone wrong with your ML? When that harmonic balencer comes apart ouch big damage.
    I haven't had all of those issues but those are a few of the common manufacturing defects (to stay ON topic), as I'm sure you know.

    I would also hate to see the back charges to MB's catalytic converter supplier due to all of the warranty replacements that they have done...

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    All this warrenty stuff almost makes me wish I bought a Yeti.

    I hope I don't have these problems with My Moment. I'm far from a serious hucker but some of these problem are scary. Tony E would have much fewer issues on warrenty if there were fewer failures in his products. Was talking to a buddy of mine who told me about a warrenty claim with a Trek road bike frame. The lady who owned it claimed it's just not right. The rep from Trek got involved and found nothing wrong with the frame but still honored and new frame fee of charge. That's what I call customer service. I have hart for the small frame builders but as far as us the comsumer is concerned we don't always get rewarded for helping out the little guy.
    Big JuJu

  62. #62
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    Upset "So Reel" Ellsworth was... and now will never be what it could have been!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    Your bike is SO COOL!

    Too bad the owner of the company is unethical, a liar, and a monumental problem with consistent customer service.

    p.s. Who is forcing you to continue to read threads that you are "sick of'?
    I couldn't agree anymore, I've got a few bikes... among them a Truth; how ironic since Tony wouldn't know the truth if it hit him in his egocentric, narcassitic face... Their bikes are over priced and riddled with now outdated technology... for all the Elssworth A$$ kissers and appologists... deal with it! you own a bike that works but there are so many others that work as well or better and if there's a problem with your bike it will get fixed... an Ellsworth; my vibe is they're about to implode and you get warranty reapirs when they're in the mood... if Tony got lucky the night before you'll get the repair. Hate me and my words if you want but the "truth" is just that!

    Right on with the aforementioned " Who is forcing you to continue to read threads that you are "sick of ?" I had a pivot problem... naturally thousands of $$ spent and not even a returned email or call... I personally reccomend the 5 spot Turner or even an "old school" Klein... or Airbourne. I will give Tony credit for the Font he used; alternative rockers that went from skateboards to mountain bikes love the "narly look and Engligh font" ... one day all Ellsworths will be expesive mountain bike dinasours; not because they dont't work; they'll just lay around unreapired and out of warranty!

    Okay, I had my rant... I never ride the Truth... I should sell it; better still I should paint it and make a statement like this bike was built my a creep!
    Last edited by gotpeace; 10-23-2004 at 01:37 PM. Reason: (sp?)
    Driving down the highway of life I realized... enough of the road rage... it's time that I get a mountain bike so I can once again claim that I've... got peace? visit http://www.gotpeace.com

  63. #63
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    No no, tell us how you really feel.


    Okay, I had my rant... I never ride the Truth... I should sell it; better still I should paint it and make a statement like this bike was built my a creep!
    Then you could call him a poo poo head and run home and tell you're momie on him.

    It was 4 weeks since the last post dude. Let it die and find something a little more current going on to satisfy your need to b1tch.

  64. #64
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    yawn...

    you are so yesterday dude...

    arent you uncomfortable wearing that thong ?


    Quote Originally Posted by gotpeace
    I couldn't agree anymore, I've got a few bikes... among them a Truth; how ironic since Tony wouldn't know the truth if it hit him in his egocentric, narcassitic face... Their bikes are over priced and riddled with now outdated technology... for all the Elssworth A$$ kissers and appologists... deal with it! you own a bike that works but there are so many others that work as well or better and if there's a problem with your bike it will get fixed... an Ellsworth; my vibe is they're about to implode and you get warranty reapirs when they're in the mood... if Tony got lucky the night before you'll get the repair. Hate me and my words if you want but the "truth" is just that!

    Right on with the aforementioned " Who is forcing you to continue to read threads that you are "sick of ?" I had a pivot problem... naturally thousands of $$ spent and not even a returned email or call... I personally reccomend the 5 spot Turner or even an "old school" Klein... or Airbourne. I will give Tony credit for the Font he used; alternative rockers that went from skateboards to mountain bikes love the "narly look and Engligh font" ... one day all Ellsworths will be expesive mountain bike dinasours; not because they dont't work; they'll just lay around unreapired and out of warranty!

    Okay, I had my rant... I never ride the Truth... I should sell it; better still I should paint it and make a statement like this bike was built my a creep!

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by msylvan
    ...and the people perpetuating them???

    SUGGESTION-- Don't reply to them at all. Let them have their own post party until they get sick of it and let it drop off the page. Every time one of us responds it pops back up to the front of the board.

    STOP REPLYING!!! Even if you are insulted, as I am, by many of the posts and the tone therein.

    If you are like me, you want the Ellsworth board to be a place we share tips, tricks, suggestions, criticism and complaints in a human and civil matter, and tell each other how cool our bikes are.

    Let's try and make it that.

    Thanks,

    Michael
    Well said best post yet!!
    will add maybe they should be subjected to watching the collective over and over to remind them all why we do what we do, go have fun and just ride!!

  66. #66
    Jm.
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    I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the ellsworth forum is some of the best entertainment to be had on this site.

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    Only in Mountain Bike Fourms

    Do you find so many arugments and strong opinions about anything. On the road bike review fourms people don't seem to be combative, nor do they jump carbon fiber road bike frames down flights of stairs and expect a free replacment. The Ellsworth fourm is getting like the Jerry Springer Show.

  68. #68
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    HEY BIG JUJU,

    YOU WANNA COME UP IN MY TRAILER AND SAY THAT TO MY FACE??? (*In my best Arkansas drawl)

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    Good job! Yer i think im in the same position as you!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Big JuJu
    Do you find so many arugments and strong opinions about anything. On the road bike review fourms people don't seem to be combative, nor do they jump carbon fiber road bike frames down flights of stairs and expect a free replacment. The Ellsworth fourm is getting like the Jerry Springer Show.
    i just got a moment too, like you said i hope i dont have the same troubles. I do however think that Ellsworth has this sence of indestructability behind it, just cos everyone says how strong and light it is. The fact is they ARE stronger AND lighter, but only a BIT lighter and a BIT stronger and more ridged etc. (Materials have there limits) making it over "all" a better ride but are still confined to there specific purpose. To make it lighter it must be remembered that they need to use less materials Ellsworth opted for the middle ground, "Strength and weight" it is NOT indestructible.
    i hope i have explained myself well enough.
    i also agree, road bikers know the limits of there bikes! i wish more Ellsworth riders knew the same. Although i do understand there can be unlucky ones with the imperfect frames, so no one should take offence by this, you know if your innocent!!!

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    Wink I'm pretty sure the Moment is gonna hold up well.

    I've been riding mine for about 2 weeks now and find it a stout frame. It climbs really, really well for a 6in travel frame making it good fun training for my road biking. I think Tony hit the bulls eye with the Moment being a good all arounder, and the Truth a good racer. Treybiker, why don't you just use your Houston accent, I doubt you really live in a trailer being that you can buy a 3500sq ft house down there for $225,000. I love the people and home values in Houston, If I were single I'd move there cause the women are HOT and have a great attitude. Are there any mountains with good climbs in Houston? Looked all flat to me.

    Ohh sorry guys guys I must be on the wrong fourm, this is the one where were supposed to tell the world what an under handed snake oil salesman Tony Ellsworth is and try to destroy his business so noone will get there Truths warrentied and we will be stuck on Dorky Giants, and Specializeds. What was I thinking saying anything positive about anyone or anything? And what was I thinking buying the Moment, even though It's my third mountain bike I must need a head examination. Shame on Tony for keeping Ellsworth a float with good marketing and improvements in the lineup. What a jerk for correcting the problem and not limiting there truths to the under 180# groups. There seems to be a lot of poeple on this fourm with advice for Tony on how to run his business, how many of you either own a business or atleast manage one? I think a lot of the people on this form just like to kill dreams and are bitter. I hate to say it again but I don't see a lot of this on the road bike fourms. The roadies are more into training and nutrition and rides. They can be snobby about eachothers bikes in person but don't seem to go postal and try to sabatoge a small business. I take that back cause we all wore Postal jerseys on last weeks group ride.

    Big JuJu

  71. #71
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    hehehe, well said...

    Quote Originally Posted by Big JuJu
    I've been riding mine for about 2 weeks now and find it a stout frame. It climbs really, really well for a 6in travel frame making it good fun training for my road biking. I think Tony hit the bulls eye with the Moment being a good all arounder, and the Truth a good racer. Treybiker, why don't you just use your Houston accent, I doubt you really live in a trailer being that you can buy a 3500sq ft house down there for $225,000. I love the people and home values in Houston, If I were single I'd move there cause the women are HOT and have a great attitude. Are there any mountains with good climbs in Houston? Looked all flat to me.

    Ohh sorry guys guys I must be on the wrong fourm, this is the one where were supposed to tell the world what an under handed snake oil salesman Tony Ellsworth is and try to destroy his business so noone will get there Truths warrentied and we will be stuck on Dorky Giants, and Specializeds. What was I thinking saying anything positive about anyone or anything? And what was I thinking buying the Moment, even though It's my third mountain bike I must need a head examination. Shame on Tony for keeping Ellsworth a float with good marketing and improvements in the lineup. What a jerk for correcting the problem and not limiting there truths to the under 180# groups. There seems to be a lot of poeple on this fourm with advice for Tony on how to run his business, how many of you either own a business or atleast manage one? I think a lot of the people on this form just like to kill dreams and are bitter. I hate to say it again but I don't see a lot of this on the road bike fourms. The roadies are more into training and nutrition and rides. They can be snobby about eachothers bikes in person but don't seem to go postal and try to sabatoge a small business. I take that back cause we all wore Postal jerseys on last weeks group ride.

    Big JuJu
    but then, i'd expect nothing less from a frikin' roadie (gone bad)...

    what road bike do you have? just dont tell me Trek...

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    Wink My Roadbike is an

    Independent Fabrication Crown Jewel with Camp Chourus and a Record Crank. My Fixed Gear road bike is a Waterford 1100 with a hap hazzard mix of parts.

  73. #73
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    nice,

    Quote Originally Posted by Big JuJu
    Independent Fabrication Crown Jewel with Camp Chourus and a Record Crank. My Fixed Gear road bike is a Waterford 1100 with a hap hazzard mix of parts.
    not that there is anything wrong with Trek, i just see so many of them that i am selling my 5200... finally got my long time dream - Colnago C40...

    i still spend way more time on my Truth... it is just that much more fun...

    wait now to see those Turner owners start pissing on our road bikes and respective manufacturers... ;-P

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    I'm not sure if I road bike to train for better mountain biking or

    Mountain bike the be a stronger roadie? Not sure? Oh sorry guys I'm off the topic again taliking about how much I enjoy riding my bikes. I suppose I am a roadie gone bad. I'm losing all my manners by the minute, the next thing you know I will lose my good spin which is the result of 1000 fixed gear miles a year along with another 4000 geared road miles, One of my regular riding buddies ride a C40 with full record, nice bike for sure, you couldent get this guy to ride a mountain bike if you gave it to him. He thinks my fixed gear riding is abserd as well. I look at riding as an art fourm and my bike as the brushes, the road and trial is the canvas, I dont give in to agendas, and propaganda regaurding someones efforts the ruin someone else's experience with there riding. I will be the first to admit that I tend to support the smaller frame companies. My last MTB was a Moots, My road bikes are an Independent Fabrications and a Waterford, now I ride an Ellsworth as well. I'd hate to see Ellsworth, Turner, or any of these little guys fold up like Ibis did. Let's see you get your Ibis Mojo warrentied now!
    Big JuJu

  75. #75
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    well... my experience

    is that road biking will make you faster mountain biker, and mountain biking will make your road sprints quicker... so benefits are on both ends...

    i do about 3500kms / year on my road bike, usually with my roadie gang... 35-40 of us regularly go out on sunday mornings for a 100kms rides.. great bunch of guys (average age 35+), lot of them are MTBrs as well... that is the only time i skip my MTB ride to go road riding...



    Quote Originally Posted by Big JuJu
    Mountain bike the be a stronger roadie? Not sure? Oh sorry guys I'm off the topic again taliking about how much I enjoy riding my bikes. I suppose I am a roadie gone bad. I'm losing all my manners by the minute, the next thing you know I will lose my good spin which is the result of 1000 fixed gear miles a year along with another 4000 geared road miles, One of my regular riding buddies ride a C40 with full record, nice bike for sure, you couldent get this guy to ride a mountain bike if you gave it to him. He thinks my fixed gear riding is abserd as well. I look at riding as an art fourm and my bike as the brushes, the road and trial is the canvas, I dont give in to agendas, and propaganda regaurding someones efforts the ruin someone else's experience with there riding. I will be the first to admit that I tend to support the smaller frame companies. My last MTB was a Moots, My road bikes are an Independent Fabrications and a Waterford, now I ride an Ellsworth as well. I'd hate to see Ellsworth, Turner, or any of these little guys fold up like Ibis did. Let's see you get your Ibis Mojo warrentied now!
    Big JuJu

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    Wink I ride Fixed Gear on My lunch break,

    With only I hour and a good flat bike path nearby I ride it fixed. People back east are really into fixed gear riding. Fixed gear bike are really low maintence and make you think about picking good line around the corners cause you have to pedal and avoid pedal striking. It will improve your riding in every way. Just don't do it on an Ellsworth it will void your warrenty.

    Big JuJu

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    Good job! Roadies ay

    i thought for once there is another mtb'er out there who knows the meaning of xc, fr, dh, etc. Nothing against roadies ofcourse, just saying on behalf of the guys who only own mtb's. There dont seem to be many fully mtb riders who know that eg. the Truth is basicly built for racing. Similar to the olimpic kind, maybe a little more rough but essentially for speed. If a jump presents itself you dont launch your bike, you keep as low as you can to maintain optimum speed and only 2-3ft max. Love my racing and have an old specialized stumpy Yr 2000 red mmm sweet still going (just)* but thats why i got the moment. Iv moved to Scotland for Uni, and started loving a bit of air now and then. and with the great new trails available nearby i needed something tougher, the moment sounded perfect.

    To refer back to your coment on small buisnesses, you are absolutly right and couldn't have put it better myself. eg. How would you feel if you were creating about the best bikes ever (Having to go specific to be the best ofcourse) and some loser chucks the Truth (for instance) off a 6ft jump/drop off, breaks it and claims for a new one. i believe this is happening far to much and totaly understand why Tony E has to look through forums to check if that guy is genuine. I dont claim to know the truth about these stories but i refuse to believe that with the great meterials used and the technology and craftmanship behind it all that they are all just going to break without warning.
    Perhaps i'm missing something, since i fail to understand why T E would produce a dodgy product as i am sure he does not welcome this developing bad reputation, its in his best intrest to create a product that is going to last, meaning no one would have to come back and claim. All in all saving money for testing and improvments on the next Yrs model, insuring his company maintains a good reputation. I mean he's used his own name on the bike, Thats Pride!!! This is what i think could have happend... with id,truths etc..... They research get told they are Strong and light, buy them, get told they have a life time Warranty and will get them replaced with the new model, ride them, love them, Yr or 2 later they decide they wouldn't mind the new one but they still love their bike, so they simply ride it without caution, without care, break it, then claim. i believe this is where Tony E's misstrust comes from and frankly i dont blame him! (Tell me if i'm wrong on some of the facts)

    To conclude: Perhaps the only thing Tony E has done wrong is his advertising stratagy, as i mentioned in my last post some think they are indestructible. He's defenatly managed to attract the wrong crowed!!!
    I always keep an open mind about these things. As i have said i have a moment, but am more of a Truth kind of guy, now with a bit of an edge, hence the moment. Now i know for sure i dont ride that hard, mainly cos race efficiency turns me on and im to much of a pusy to do jumps/drop offs more then 3 - 4ft anyway so if i come back a Yr from now or so with a broken Moment, i will not be impressed and will begin to believe this negativety But short of that or until someone proves to me that Tony E is actually a "master criminal", i will retain these views.

  78. #78
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    Treybiker, why don't you just use your Houston accent, I doubt you really live in a trailer being that you can buy a 3500sq ft house down there for $225,000. I love the people and home values in Houston, If I were single I'd move there cause the women are HOT and have a great attitude. Are there any mountains with good climbs in Houston? Looked all flat to me.
    Well, the last house I rented was 1400 sq/ft and built back in the 1920's went for about $225,000 (center of town), but we're building a bigger house cheaper just 25 miles north of downtown where there's a few hills (Yes, I used to train on overpasses and bridges for my hill training), and trees. And yes the women are hot, and the attitudes are decent (no women have great attitudes as long as men are there to keep them mean). Austin is the best place to live in Texas, but it's getting to be expensive to live there and not very many good paying jobs left.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krafty
    This is what i think could have happend... with id,truths etc..... They research get told they are Strong and light, buy them, get told they have a life time Warranty and will get them replaced with the new model, ride them, love them, Yr or 2 later they decide they wouldn't mind the new one but they still love their bike, so they simply ride it without caution, without care, break it, then claim. i believe this is where Tony E's misstrust comes from and frankly i dont blame him! (Tell me if i'm wrong on some of the facts)
    That's not how it happened with me and about 20+ other Truth owners that have posted on this website about their frames breaking in the SAME spot.

    Your not wrong about some of the facts, your wrong about most of the facts. Clue-you need one

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    Good job! What kind of riding do you do

    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    That's not how it happened with me and about 20+ other Truth owners that have posted on this website about their frames breaking in the SAME spot.

    Your not wrong about some of the facts, your wrong about most of the facts. Clue-you need one
    Out of intrest how did it break was it a jump, bump etc. *not accusing u of anything just wondering
    im sure i have got a few things wrong iv only been looking at Ellsworths since half a Yr ago, Quite thoroughly though. don't know a great deal about the older stuff 2 Yrs and more

  81. #81
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    Idea! Only "hollywood" boys want to visualize a guy in a thong..

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    you are so yesterday dude...

    arent you uncomfortable wearing that thong ?
    Very intelligent and cogent message; you probably could get a job holding Tony's thong...
    Driving down the highway of life I realized... enough of the road rage... it's time that I get a mountain bike so I can once again claim that I've... got peace? visit http://www.gotpeace.com

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    Wink Yeah the truths were breaking in the same spot.

    Krafty you gotta face the facts, the 2001 Truths broke in the seat tube during regular XC riding/racing. This is a fact, I certianly wouldent recommend a 2001 truth to anyone for that reason. Can we all agree that the 2001 Truth has a design defect? I think so.
    O.K. now what is Tony suposed to do about it? First he has to change the design,
    Second he has to deal with all the warrenty claims. Yeah I'd be pissed too if I bought a 2001 truth and had to shell out over 500 bucks to set up a new frame. I personally don't think Tony could stay in business and give every one complete 05 truth frames for the warrenty claim. Tony has to eat too ya know.

    We have all heard the opinions about the warrenty practices but we havent heard a rational compromise to solve this problem.
    I think he should manufacture a main frame that will work with the 2001 parts and do a few batches at a time and still give the customer the option to upgrade for $500. I'd presonally go with the upgrade. That way the frame owner can have the option of a no cost responce to the warrenty claim which seems to be what they want.

    What do you all think about that idea? Would that solve any of your problems? If so maybe we need to run this by Tony.

    Big JuJu

  83. #83
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    Good suggestion, Big JuJu

    As others have said, the '01-'03 Truths must have a flaw that allows a "stress riser" to develop in the seat tube, so that a person can really be "just riding along" and the frame can break. It isn't clear to me if it is the shape of the weld, the high leverage ratio of the shock or the thin tubing at the point of failure that causes the problem. Maybe it is a combination of these plus other factors. It does appear that Truths of that vintage are time bombs.

    Bikezilla cracked his Turner 5-spot in the same area in a year of riding, though, so this must be a highly stressed area in 4 bar frame. The difference in his satisfaction versus the Truth owners who post here stems from the fact that BZ's problem was adressed promptly, without drama, and aparrently at no cost to him.

    It would be very educational to know what fraction of the '01 series Truth frames have broken. Reading these boards over the last year, it sounds like it is a substantial percentage. Does anyone with access to the statistics care to comment?

    I agree that making batches of a new front triangle with thicker seat tubes (or whatever is necessary to prevent failure) that would fit the original shock, rocker and stays would be a reasonable thing to do. This would allow the frames to be warranteed with the least cost. If the failure rate is high enough, this should be done proactively.

    A big factor in people's dissatisfaction seems to be the way the "lifetime warranty" is being handled. Relying on a fine print interpretation of "lifetime" is legally justifiable, but not good PR. Seems to me that the cost being reported is too high for a warranty replacement. I could see charging for shipping, assembly, new bearings if needed, etc.

    I don't know Tony E. at all, but I can understand why he doesn't want to expose himself to the kind of rabid criticism he gets on these boards. If we could talk about this problem in a civil fashion, we may be of more help to the people with broken frames.

    In particular, if Ellsworth could come up with a fair, consistent policy on how they are going to deal with failures, it would help rescue their reputation in the eyes of some of their more reasonable critics. I hope it happens.
    {Principal Skinner} Hmm. Whoever did this is in very deep trouble.
    {Martin} And a sloppy speller too. The preferred spelling of 'wiener' is w - i - e - n - e - r, although 'e - i' is an acceptable ethnic variant.

  84. #84
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    really?

    Quote Originally Posted by gotpeace
    Very intelligent and cogent message; you probably could get a job holding Tony's thong...
    well, the picture is yours, not mine, right? ... so dont blame me... but then, the picture probably serves a good purpose as you'd never know how women's a$$ looked without it...

    as far as your post go, i didnt see anything cogent let alone intelligent in it, so i couldnt comment on it...

    Got peace?

    sure... and you?

  85. #85
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    Well since I heard my name...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob the Wheelbuilder
    ...Bikezilla cracked his Turner 5-spot in the same area in a year of riding, though, so this must be a highly stressed area in 4 bar frame. The difference in his satisfaction versus the Truth owners who post here stems from the fact that BZ's problem was adressed promptly, without drama, and aparrently at no cost to him.
    I agree with focus of you post. I just thought I'd add that while my case was a shining example of absolutely stellar customer service, (one day from reporting a problem to receiving a replacement)... I felt it somewhat incompatible to this discussion since my bike was only a year old, and that there appears to be a very, low return rate on this particular frame.(and others in this brand) The Issues with the early Truths are that there seems to have been a lot of failures, and that because they are not current/recent bikes the owners have to dish half a grand or more to get back to pedaling. (opinions vary on the acceptability of this).

    I think it would be very impractical to have two different runs of the Truth frame. (One for sales and the other for older model warranty replacements). The frame builder, Kenisis, would have to maintain two sets of jigs, two stocks of tubests and operate two different runs. Now EW would have to pay for those extras, and one run would not be generating any revenue whatsoever. No it's too late to build replacements for the pre-'04 Truths. Either EW has to provide replacements from current stock or charge for them. Their interpretation of their former Lifetime warranty is quite literally as it is written on their warranty cards. End user expectiation is another matter entirely, which has been discussed ad-nausiem(sp?) And FWIW I don't think it's the same as jumping a road bike down a flight of stairs. Roadies don't beat on their bikes because it is not part of their sport. MTB'ers do because it is part of the game. The mfgrs know this. They market to this, they glorify it, so do the mags and even many of the users who post about it online.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

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    Wink Of course it would cost Tony but

    I might be an investment that would make people belive in his company and it's level of customer service. He could make this move of good faith part of his marketing stratigy offering the customer piece of mind and stellar performance to do a modified run of early truth frames. I'd think of it as a long trem investment.

    Big JuJu

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    I hear you but It's a HUGE cost. I honestly believe it would be cheaper to replace with new frames on an as needed basis...

    Besides he's selling bikes hand over fist anyway. I figure EW moves about as much product as the other big three botique builders combined. Most of his customers have no idea about the MTBR forums.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  88. #88
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    i am with BZ on this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    I hear you but It's a HUGE cost. I honestly believe it would be cheaper to replace with new frames on an as needed basis...

    Besides he's selling bikes hand over fist anyway. I figure EW moves about as much product as the other big three botique builders combined. Most of his customers have no idea about the MTBR forums.
    it'd definitely be chaeper for TE to do 04 frame swap than to build a line for older frames...

    i think the way to do this is to replace the frame that is broken... the cost of the shock would be owners responsibility...

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krafty
    Out of intrest how did it break was it a jump, bump etc. *not accusing u of anything just wondering
    im sure i have got a few things wrong iv only been looking at Ellsworths since half a Yr ago, Quite thoroughly though. don't know a great deal about the older stuff 2 Yrs and more
    Don't know exactly what caused either breaks, noticed the first one while cleaning the bike after a muddy ride and the second one after returning from Moab. We ride some rough terrain here but I never did anything on the Truth that I wouldn't do on my previous 2 bikes which were a Ti HT and a Proflex, both of these bikes were lighter BTW and never broke. I assure you I was not abusing the frame like Ells. and others want everyone to believe.

    Some good ideas mentioned above, are you listening TE?

  90. #90
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    Cost effectiveness depends on failure rate

    If the failure rate is low, say a few percent or less, then replacing broken bikes with a current year's model would be the best idea. A no cost replacement would silence the critics. If I was rroeder, with a frame less than a year old, spending $500-600 for a replacement would make me very unhappy. If the frame was 3 years old, it would seem like a great deal to get a whole new frame for that price. Maybe a sliding scale for years of use could be used to make things more fair if people are going to be charged for replacements.

    If the failure rate is high, for example more than 20%, then for safety's sake, the front triangles should be replaced before they fail. In that case, it would probably be more cost effective to crank out a front triangle that fits the old remaining parts. All known owners should be contacted, and though it may take months of waiting, they should all be given replacement front triangles.

    Another option would be to engineer a different rocker that would allow old parts to attach to a current generation front triangle. I imagine the manufacturing costs for this would be less than cranking out new "old-style" FT's, but then replacement parts would include a new FT and a special rocker.

    In any case, a consistently applied, fair and openly stated policy is better than the variable, case-by-case treatment we're hearing about on these boards. Turner's "we'll make it right" policy should replace "what did you do wrong to break this frame?"
    {Principal Skinner} Hmm. Whoever did this is in very deep trouble.
    {Martin} And a sloppy speller too. The preferred spelling of 'wiener' is w - i - e - n - e - r, although 'e - i' is an acceptable ethnic variant.

  91. #91
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    I don't understand how TE can produce a frame (2001 Truth) that obviously has a design flaw......and he's not required to recall it?

    I would think that the odds of someone getting injured on a broken Truth are relatively high. I'm not the type that sues, but if I got injured due to a Truth frame breaking and I found out that TE knows this is an issue (and did nothing about it), I'd seriously consider suing TE.

    I'm really surprised that it's not happening already. Maybe it is and it's being kept quiet.

  92. #92
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    Dead Horse Award

    and the winner is.....
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Rotflmao!

    Can I have that as my Avatar? Please?

  94. #94
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    That looks like Moab, your not supposed to ride a Truth in Moab-remember

  95. #95
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    OOOOOPPPPPS ridin' the wrong Horse!

    ridin' the wrong horse! guess that why the dude's scratchin' his head!

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    What happened to that horse?

    Did it break a seatstay?


    Disclaimer: At this point, I am only playing around. I do not mean any harm to any current Ellsworth owners. Feel free top make fun of my 225lb arse on a single pivot Crack'n'fail at any time.
    Last edited by damion; 11-24-2004 at 07:11 PM.

  97. #97
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    You're going to have to pay to upgrade to the new "05" horse. 04 and 05 horses are not compatible.

    Also, were you hucking that horse?

  98. #98

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    Did you say Hucking that horse?

    I cant even type because I am laughing.

  99. #99
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    "Shut you hucking mouth, uncle hucker..."
    (South Park)
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  100. #100
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    popcorn anyone? drinks?

    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    Did it break a seatstay?


    Disclaimer: At this point, I am only playing around. I do not mean any harm to any current Ellsworth owners. Feel free top make fun of my 225lb arse on a single pivot Crack'n'fail at any time.
    looks like we're having a party on someone else's expense, eh?

    but because, just because, you said you were joking, i'll let you get away with that...

    i have to admit, your old avatar was better than the current one...

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