I recieved a call from the CSPC this morning...- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1

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    I recieved a call from the CPSC this morning...

    They (Consumer Product Safety Comission) want copies of all info related to 2001 Ellsworth Truth frames breaking at the seat tube.

    the contact info for the CSPC is 1-800-638-2772 or www.cpsc.gov.

    Those that are diectly involved can contact me for more specific info...( I have the e-mail, direct line #, and name of the CPSC case worker.)





    Sorry, Tony, you brought this on yourself. You should have done the right thing....
    Last edited by damion; 12-28-2004 at 02:12 PM.

  2. #2
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    Curious, why did they contact you?

    Sorry if this is obvious, I don't follow all "those" threads that closely.
    Take the long cut, we'll get there eventually.

  3. #3
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    Wow! It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

    Even though TE replaced my chainstay on my Id with no questions asked, I still sold the frame. My riding style should never break a frame. Especially one that's only a year and a half old. My 5 year old Sugar is still going strong. This is why I will never own another EW and why I can never recommend them. TE knows how to make the best looking and a great riding bike but he needs to resolve this warranty issue. It appears it's gotten out of hand though. I hope this doesn't cause him to go out of business or be bought by Trek or something. That would be a blow to the industry.
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  4. #4
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    It would be a good thing for the small builders out there like Turner/Foes/Ventana/Titus who are upstanding companies and would get increased business, removing Ells. from the gene pool makes for a stronger industry I would think. It would suck for the current owners out there though, if they do have problems their hosed and the resale value would plummet.

  5. #5
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    ... but then where would I get my ICT stickers from?
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  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    They (Consumer Product Safety Comission) want copies of all info related to 2001 Ellsworth Truth frames breaking at the seat tube.

    the contact info for the CSPC is 1-800-638-2772 or www.cspc.gov.

    Those that are diectly involved can contact me for more specific info...( I have the e-mail, direct line #, and name of the CSPC case worker.)





    Sorry, Tony, you brought this on yourself. You should have done the right thing....
    Interesting development...please post some updates when they occur.

    FB

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    ... but then where would I get my ICT stickers from?
    Didn't you hear?, he ditched the stickers and all Turner owners now have to send their frame in for ICT laser etching along with TE's picture next to it. You better send it in quick before the Ells. police impound your Spot-they know where you ride.

  8. #8
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    It's www.cpsc.gov.

    I read the requirements for bicycles. They're pretty simple. If the law was followed, what recourse can the CPSC have? On 4-5 year old bicycles? And should we contact them about broken Titus' (4 swingarms in 3 years), Litespeed (broken frame at the headtube), and Turner (broken seat tube as posted on this thread) among many others?

    Best of luck to you and those that have struggled through warranty issues. I would not be happy either if I had to shell out more money on a bike frame that cost $2000. Maybe some good can come of this? But at what cost?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by chad1433
    ... Maybe some good can come of this? But at what cost?
    Probably at the cost of our sense of geography...



    Quote Originally Posted by rroder
    ...all Turner owners now have to send their frame in for ICT laser etching along with TE's picture next to it.
    Really? A picture of TE? Which end?
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by chad1433
    If the law was followed, what recourse can the CPSC have?
    The question is if the law was followed.

    The CPSC apparently gets a bit upset when businesses don't follow the law. Especially the reporting requirements.


    WASHINGTON, Nov. 1 /PRNewswire/ -- The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) is announcing a major court victory that upholds one of CPSC's most potent weapons: the requirement for companies to report dangers and defects with consumer products to the government in a timely manner. The court ruled unanimously that companies who fail to abide by the reporting requirement can be held liable to pay substantial civil penalties.

    (Logo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20030904/USCSCLOGO )

    The ruling was made by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in San Diego, Calif., and affirmed a $300,000 civil penalty against Mirama Enterprises Inc. Mirama, which does business as Aroma Housewares Co., failed to report a serious product hazard with its electric juicers that shattered and injured consumers.

    "This case is unprecedented, as no court has ever addressed CPSC's reporting requirement," said Chairman Hal Stratton. "The Court agreed with CPSC that companies must tell us about potentially dangerous products even before they are found to be defective and that companies are liable for reporting every product they sell that poses a danger to consumers."

    Specifically, the appellate court held that "a company commits a separate offense for every potentially dangerous unit it fails to report." As a result, the court ruled, "Aroma was required to report not merely the twenty- three juicers that shattered, but the 30,000 to 40,000 juicers in the stream of commerce that might well pose an unreasonable risk of serious injury to consumers. When it failed to do so, Aroma committed 30,000 to 40,000 reporting offenses."

    The Ninth Circuit also rejected Aroma's argument that proof of a defect was required before a civil penalty could be imposed for a failure to report under the Consumer Product Safety Act. The appellate court held that "Congress's decision to impose penalties for reporting violations without requiring proof of a product defect encourages companies to provide necessary information to the Commission."

    "When companies inform us right away about a problem with a product, it allows CPSC to work quickly and cooperatively with the company to determine if the product is defective, and if it is, then we can warn consumers before anyone suffers harm," added Chairman Stratton.

    The district court case was the first time that a federal court 1) found that a company had violated the reporting statute and 2) directly imposed a civil penalty. The U.S. Department of Justice's Office of Consumer Litigation represented CPSC in the Aroma cases.

    The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission is charged with protecting the public from unreasonable risks of serious injury or death from more than 15,000 types of consumer products under the agency's jurisdiction. Deaths, injuries and property damage from consumer product incidents cost the nation more than $700 billion annually. The CPSC is committed to protecting consumers and families from products that pose a fire, electrical, chemical, or mechanical hazard. The CPSC's work to ensure the safety of consumer products -- such as toys, cribs, power tools, cigarette lighters, and household chemicals -- contributed significantly to the 30 percent decline in the rate of deaths and injuries associated with consumer products over the past 30 years.

  11. #11
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    Don't you guys fret. Once special defense clown osokolo gets involved in Tony's defense, it won't take long before Ellsworth will take it up the a$$!

  12. #12
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    Just spoke with the CPSC, they need as many people as possible to contact them who have had a frame failure and if you have pictures it would help. Unfortunately, unless there has been an injury or if they can prove the frame failures will cause injury, there may be nothing they can do. They are only involved in product safety, not bad business practices, but they can force a recall if these frames prove to be unsafe. They need someone to come forward who has been injured from the frame failure basicly and it's a lengthy process to get a recall for an unsafe product.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    The question is if the law was followed.

    The CPSC apparently gets a bit upset when businesses don't follow the law. Especially the reporting requirements.


    WASHINGTON, Nov. 1 /PRNewswire/ -- The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) is announcing a major court victory that upholds one of CPSC's most potent weapons: the requirement for companies to report dangers and defects with consumer products to the government in a timely manner. The court ruled unanimously that companies who fail to abide by the reporting requirement can be held liable to pay substantial civil penalties.

    (Logo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20030904/USCSCLOGO )

    The ruling was made by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in San Diego, Calif., and affirmed a $300,000 civil penalty against Mirama Enterprises Inc. Mirama, which does business as Aroma Housewares Co., failed to report a serious product hazard with its electric juicers that shattered and injured consumers.

    "This case is unprecedented, as no court has ever addressed CPSC's reporting requirement," said Chairman Hal Stratton. "The Court agreed with CPSC that companies must tell us about potentially dangerous products even before they are found to be defective and that companies are liable for reporting every product they sell that poses a danger to consumers."

    Specifically, the appellate court held that "a company commits a separate offense for every potentially dangerous unit it fails to report." As a result, the court ruled, "Aroma was required to report not merely the twenty- three juicers that shattered, but the 30,000 to 40,000 juicers in the stream of commerce that might well pose an unreasonable risk of serious injury to consumers. When it failed to do so, Aroma committed 30,000 to 40,000 reporting offenses."

    The Ninth Circuit also rejected Aroma's argument that proof of a defect was required before a civil penalty could be imposed for a failure to report under the Consumer Product Safety Act. The appellate court held that "Congress's decision to impose penalties for reporting violations without requiring proof of a product defect encourages companies to provide necessary information to the Commission."

    "When companies inform us right away about a problem with a product, it allows CPSC to work quickly and cooperatively with the company to determine if the product is defective, and if it is, then we can warn consumers before anyone suffers harm," added Chairman Stratton.

    The district court case was the first time that a federal court 1) found that a company had violated the reporting statute and 2) directly imposed a civil penalty. The U.S. Department of Justice's Office of Consumer Litigation represented CPSC in the Aroma cases.

    The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission is charged with protecting the public from unreasonable risks of serious injury or death from more than 15,000 types of consumer products under the agency's jurisdiction. Deaths, injuries and property damage from consumer product incidents cost the nation more than $700 billion annually. The CPSC is committed to protecting consumers and families from products that pose a fire, electrical, chemical, or mechanical hazard. The CPSC's work to ensure the safety of consumer products -- such as toys, cribs, power tools, cigarette lighters, and household chemicals -- contributed significantly to the 30 percent decline in the rate of deaths and injuries associated with consumer products over the past 30 years.

    Interesting case, especially with the reporting requirement. I wonder how many bike companies know about the requirement? The part about not having to prove an actual defect before becoming liable for the failure to report is HUGE... Now as to actual injury, was anyone on this board with the borken frames actually injured? Does anyone know?

    FB

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    Titus , Turner, Ventana et al.....

    ...could probably just offer a trade-in deal to all Ellsworth owners, should Tony E. go outof business. Something like "Send us your Ellsworth and we'll sell you one of our frames at 10% above wholesale" would be a great way to help out Ellsworth owners without a company and make a buck in the process.

    Litespeed did something like this, as did Cannondale, though I don't believe they made it exclusive to any particular brand. It was just a way to make their frames more attractve to the public.



    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    It would be a good thing for the small builders out there like Turner/Foes/Ventana/Titus who are upstanding companies and would get increased business, removing Ells. from the gene pool makes for a stronger industry I would think. It would suck for the current owners out there though, if they do have problems their hosed and the resale value would plummet.

  15. #15
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    Please slow down people...

    I am as critical about Ellsworth as anyone since I am also a victim of a 2001 Truth frame breakage and understand the flaw in that design....but be careful about all this speculation about Ellsworth going out of business!

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    Speculation?

    Hell, I'd never speculate that he'd go out of business. I was simply suggesting a possible scenario should he do so -- one that would lessen the sting for pre-existing customers.

    What I really do indeed speculate is that Tony is too full of himself to ever close up shop.

    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    I am as critical about Ellsworth as anyone since I am also a victim of a 2001 Truth frame breakage and understand the flaw in that design....but be careful about all this speculation about Ellsworth going out of business!

  17. #17

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    Slow down!

    That is no where near the intent. No one thinks a loss of jobs is a good idea, I just think that it is time for E. to step up, admit that there is a problem, and go from there.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    That is no where near the intent. No one thinks a loss of jobs is a good idea, I just think that it is time for E. to step up, admit that there is a problem, and go from there.
    I agree, closing down Ellsworth should not be the goal. Fair customer treatment is the goal.

  19. #19
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    I may be a touch defensive/sensitive as I'm about to pick up my new Ellsworth Moment today but I can't help feeling that some people on this site seem to be a bit over zealous in relation to this issue.

    I can appreciate all the issues in relation to the warranty, but talk about an independant American company going bust, over some? broken frames seems a bit over the top.

    Surely every manafacturer must suffer from this. The nature of this sport must mean that people will abuse the bikes in a manner for which they weren't designed. That doesn't mean that there are genuine owners that have been unlucky with rogue frames, but does that mean it's right to condem a company with an otherwise good reputation?

    Hopefully all those with genuine complaints will see the matter resolved, but a word of caution to those baying for blood, because you just might find you will be buying your bikes from China in the future when you force all the little guys to give up.

    Regards.

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    I totally agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobbydosser

    I can appreciate all the issues in relation to the warranty, but talk about an independant American company going bust, over some? broken frames seems a bit over the top.
    .
    This was never the intent. No one wants a business to go under over this, but the fact remains that this issue was never dealt with the right way in the first oplace.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lobbydosser
    Surely every manafacturer must suffer from this. The nature of this sport must mean that people will abuse the bikes in a manner for which they weren't designed. That doesn't mean that there are genuine owners that have been unlucky with rogue frames, but does that mean it's right to condem a company with an otherwise good reputation?
    The frames breaking in the same place, under fair riding conditions is a problem. Other makers, large and small, do recalls all of the time. It sucks, but that is the way that it goes. I am not saying that a full recall is needed, but the owners of those bikes should not be charged to get back on the trail.


    I am not even going to go in to the "Good Reputation" part.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lobbydosser
    Hopefully all those with genuine complaints will see the matter resolved, but a word of caution to those baying for blood, because you just might find you will be buying your bikes from China in the future when you force all the little guys to give up.

    Regards.

    I am very sorry if you think that I am out for bloood. That is not, and never has been, my intent. I only want what is right. In the end, I hope that good comes of all of this. I truely do.

  21. #21
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    I hope some good comes of this investigation, but it raises some interesting questions.

    The Turner board has several documented failures in the classic '01 Truth style in Large and XL Turner 5 spots. Should they be included in this investigation? Is the 4 bar, Horst link design too highly stressed in that area, and should it be banned in all its incarnations? How many failures are insignificant? How many are excessive?

    I think a head tube, handlebar or fork failure would be much more of a safety concern than a frame that breaks in the seat tube. Several people have reported failures of Easton Carbon bars. Should we sic the cpsc on Easton while we're at it?

    It seems to me that poor customer service is the unique problem with the broken Truths. The fact that bikes break in this highly stressed spot is less unique to Ellsworth. Interesting that the cpsc contacted damion, one of the non Ellsworth owning "alert readers" (to quote Dave Barry) instead of someone who actually has had the problem personally.

    We'll all be watching closely, I guess.
    {Principal Skinner} Hmm. Whoever did this is in very deep trouble.
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  22. #22
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    I think there was a real issue w/ the 2001 frames.

    Frames break. Frames from ANY builder break; Turner, Titus, Ventana etc etc, doesn't matter. BUT, I think there was a REAL design issue w/ the 2001 truths. I don't think the later truths had the same issue.

    A friend of mine owns a 2001 truth. It broke. When he brought it back to the shop where he bought it from the guy mentioned his had been the last unbroken truth that he had sold.

    I think the guy had sold 5-10 2001 truths and ALL of them broke. While certainly not an exhaustive survey it's very suggestive.

    I know (casually) three other people who had 2001 truths. 2 of them have broken frames. The other is a 60ish year old man who rides on easy trails. His frame has not broken.

    I'm not suggesting that all truths break, I simply think the 2001 had a severe design flaw and should have been handled in a much different manner than it was.

    Dave

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    Are you talking to me?

    ...or someone else, or the thread in general, or what?

    But to the point you just made regarding jobs, If Tony has guys or gals working for him that aren't the slimebags he is, and they have real skills, they won't have a problem finding a new job if he goes under. If things start looking bad, they'll jump ship before it goes down.

    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    That is no where near the intent. No one thinks a loss of jobs is a good idea, I just think that it is time for E. to step up, admit that there is a problem, and go from there.

  24. #24
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    Lets be realistic here, the CPSC is not going to put them out of business, as posted earlier they are only involved in product safety. They MIGHT be able to force a recall on the 2001-2003 Truth frames if they are proven unsafe and I think that would be a good thing for the consumers out there regardless of how it affects Ells.

    Besides the fact that a lot of people think TE is a slimeball, and the fact that his frames seem to break more often than others, the real issue here is he produced a frame (2001 Truth) that has had a high failure rate and he made a poor business decision when he decided to start charging these owners for the new design when their frame broke.

    I don't think this is a safety issue either, so the CPSC probably won't be able to do much unless there has been an injury and like BobTWB mentioned, this kind of failure is not like a handlebar failure or fork failure which can cause loss of control. FYI Bob, the person I spoke to did mention several cases of carbon bar failures and fork failures that they looked into and forced the mfg to replace or modify the products.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobbydosser
    That doesn't mean that there are genuine owners that have been unlucky with rogue frames, but does that mean it's right to condem a company with an otherwise good reputation?
    New around here, huh?

  26. #26
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    At the very least this could be a case of "Be careful what you wish for," If they can shut EW's doors over the broken seat tube, they can bury just about every frame and part vendor in the industry.

    I joked around above because this really is silly. Of all the times I've read folks posting about broken seat tubes, on many different brands, I haven't yet read about a single injury. True, somebody could get hurt. But there are other common failures will most certainly cause injury.

    We've been down this road a bazillion times and almost nothing has changed except the language of the warranty.(the coverage is unchanged) IMO the only value this has is watching the same old trolls getting people to rise to the same old bait.

    Which brings me to my next point: rroder... I hear TE's printing some custom "Atlas" stickers for you Foes!!!
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    At the very least this could be a case of "Be careful what you wish for," If they can shut EW's doors over the broken seat tube, they can bury just about every frame and part vendor in the industry.

    I joked around above because this really is silly. Of all the times I've read folks posting about broken seat tubes, on many different brands, I haven't yet read about a single injury. True, somebody could get hurt. But there are other common failures will most certainly cause injury.

    We've been down this road a bazillion times and almost nothing has changed except the language of the warranty.(the coverage is unchanged) IMO the only value this has is watching the same old trolls getting people to rise to the same old bait.

    Which brings me to my next point: rroder... I hear TE's printing some custom "Atlas" stickers for you Foes!!!
    All this talk has to be putting a dent in his pocketbook though, and I imagine Turners success with the 5 Spot and now his other models is really pissing him off, hence the stupid sticker.

    If he gives me my $500 back I'll put a sticker on my bike- then I'll write "sucks" right next to it

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    All this talk has to be putting a dent in his pocketbook though, and I imagine Turners success with the 5 Spot and now his other models is really pissing him off, hence the stupid sticker.

    If he gives me my $500 back I'll put a sticker on my bike- then I'll write "sucks" right next to it
    Sorry, only the sticker part of my reply was directed at you. The rest was a general response.

    A dent in TE's wallet? Maybe.I'll bet most of EW's customers never heard of MTBR. TE gets his huge marketshare through sheer marketing prowess. He's a master salesman with a huge adver budget. Every other botique builder relies almost exclusively on word of mouth. Testomony to their products and service.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob the Wheelbuilder
    I
    Interesting that the cpsc contacted damion, one of the non Ellsworth owning "alert readers" (to quote Dave Barry) instead of someone who actually has had the problem personally.

    Wait, damion doesn't have an Ellsworth? Why the crusade?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kev0153
    Wait, damion doesn't have an Ellsworth? Why the crusade?
    You're new here aren't you?
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    You're new here aren't you?
    yes and no but I don't want to read all that crap that is posted below this.

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    What, I have to be a victim to help?

    Quote Originally Posted by kev0153
    Wait, damion doesn't have an Ellsworth? Why the crusade?

    I am simply a cyclist who has a semi-educated opinion. (I am trying to help out the industry in the long run)

    I thing that TE needs to step up to the plate, admit that there is something wrong, and face the music.

    This stuff needed to be brought to light long before this, I am just a catalyst.




    If you like, go back over my old posts. I am generally very helpful.

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    nm

    nevermind
    Last edited by airwreck; 12-29-2004 at 10:48 PM. Reason: wrong again

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    I am simply a cyclist who has a semi-educated opinion. (I am trying to help out the industry in the long run)

    I thing that TE needs to step up to the plate, admit that there is something wrong, and face the music.

    This stuff needed to be brought to light long before this, I am just a catalyst.




    If you like, go back over my old posts. I am generally very helpful.
    Honestly, the web of deciet and lies that Tony has woven is simply going to bring him down no matter what. If he does try to "turn over a new leaf" by admitting to a problem, he simply reinforces the point that he was acting as a slimy worm, and there's no gaurentee that he won't revert back to slimy worm status some time in the future. If he doesn't turn over a new leaf, contiues to lie to people, continues with shady business tactics, etc, it will simply be reinforcing the fact that he is a slimy worm. Due to the lies he has posted on this site, the outrageous comments he has made on this site, the completely baseless charges he has made on this site (trying to claim someone abused their ellsworth by simply riding it on moab), the people he has shortchanged, the articles he has physically changed and misquoted, etc....- He has simply backed himself into a corner where he will be damned if he does anything, and damned if he does not. This is the pile if shie├če that Tony Ellsworth has made for himself. Maybe things are finally comming to roost for him, but he only has himself to blame. There are simply so many levels where he has lied, and so many people that he has screwed over by making them pay to replace defects and flaws.

    This went beyond simply "stepping up to the plate" at least 5 years ago...

  35. #35
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    Just reading the language you guys use to describe this sounds like he killed a family member or something. Seems like a lot of hate, some one above said over zealous, I agree. Life is too short to get this worked up in my opnion. I have never been screwed by Ellsworth, in fact, I've been happy with both products I own. I have been screwed over in other business dealings and lost money. Yeah I was upset but life is like that.

    I have read some of the posts below this and I probably going to regret posting this. I should have just stayed out of it.

  36. #36
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    Kev, there's a long history here. If you haven't been following it, it's difficult to understand the bitterness behind some of the responders. It's a loooooong read, and a significant part spans into the archives. Many of posters here have directly particpated in the length of it.

    Just walking in and saying "what's all the fuss about?" deprives yourself of meaningful understanding.

    But I totally understand how you wouldn't want to read through all that "crap". That said I also don't understand the ongoing efforts of some (from both sides). But Others make compelling arguements.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  37. #37
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    Point taken and I have read some of it. There is a legit beef I'll agree. Seems like there are few with clearer heads and then there are others on both sides, as you say, that come in and muck up what could be a productive post. More often then not many of these posts just breakdown into a flame war with posters trading eloquently written insults. Anybody moderate this board? On the board I run that stuff doesn't fly.

    Still, the level pure hatred that comes across is a shame. Don't want to come across as some tree loving hippy.

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    Go back to the commune, Hippy!

    Quote Originally Posted by kev0153
    Point taken and I have read some of it. There is a legit beef I'll agree. Seems like there are few with clearer heads and then there are others on both sides, as you say, that come in and muck up what could be a productive post. More often then not many of these posts just breakdown into a flame war with posters trading eloquently written insults. Anybody moderate this board? On the board I run that stuff doesn't fly.

    Still, the level pure hatred that comes across is a shame. Don't want to come across as some tree loving hippy.

    (I am kidding.) You raise some interesting points. I will ponder for awhile.

  39. #39
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    this is all way too silly AFAIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    Don't you guys fret. Once special defense clown osokolo gets involved in Tony's defense, it won't take long before Ellsworth will take it up the a$$!
    lot of people on this thread are daydreaming if they think this "case" will make any significant change...

    but i will wait and see. If this action improves any part of the bysiness, be it CSR or anything else, i'll be as happy as anyone else. It will take some time before we can revisiti the issue and assess any improvements.

    as far as your "clown" comment, you can have it up your a$$... it only proves that you are not here to do anything constructive but to start a flame war.

    now please fock off...
    Last edited by osokolo; 12-30-2004 at 11:40 AM.

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    hmm, i guess had i said the same thing as kev

    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    (I am kidding.) You raise some interesting points. I will ponder for awhile.
    i'd have been honoured with some juicy names and labeled some interesting lables etc..

    you know what i mean...

    and if i said that my point was exactly the same as kev's all along, you probably wouldnt agree... eh?

    but it really is. my point is almost identical to what kev stated...

  41. #41
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    Hahahahahahah, All this is soooo funny. I hate Ellsworth with a passion. I wonder what Teresa Ellsworths thinks about Tony "Slimebag" Ellsworths business practices.

    -TS
    Fayetteville, AR and N.W.A RePrEsEnT

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    I used the search feature and I found stuff like this. Why would anyone want to buy EW when you read horror stories across the entire product range?

    I mean, I'm sure they ride great and they look great, but a broken bike would not ride at all If I was faced with spending hundreds more on a frame that you purchased at a premium price, I'd be ticked, but it seems more like the people that buy 'Rovers that are "in the shop".

    See, it's totally obvious that this is the bed Tony made for himself over the last ten years and then you have some zealots like Osokolo that comes from nowhere and makes threads continue with personal attacks for what seems to be over a year now.

    It will definitely take Tony a few years to fix this mess, provided he doesn't go out of business first. Unfortunately for him, this has already been going on for years and he's not doing anything about it in a noble manner. Strategies from protecting his bottom line, meanwhile there's a HUGE profit margin he's making on each bike, as well as when he sells you a deeply discounted crash replacement under the "lifetime warranty".

    Post number 21 & 35 displays how Ellsworth sees his customers. You don't have to be a psychologist to understand how he markets and what he thinks of who he markets to.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=25087
    Last edited by mtbgrasshopper; 02-20-2005 at 08:11 AM.

  43. #43
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    huh???

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbgrasshopper
    I used the search feature and I found stuff like this. Why would anyone want to buy EW when you read horror stories across the entire product range?

    I mean, I'm sure they ride great and they look great, but a broken bike would not ride at all If I was faced with spending hundreds more on a frame that you purchased at a premium price, I'd be ticked, but it seems more like the people that buy 'Rovers that are "in the shop".

    See, it's totally obvious that this is the bed Tony made for himself over the last ten years and then you have some zealots like Osokolo that comes from nowhere and makes threads continue with personal attacks for what seems to be over a year now.

    It will definitely take Tony a few years to fix this mess, provided he doesn't go out of business first. Unfortunately for him, this has already been going on for years and he's not doing anything about it in a noble manner. Strategies from protecting his bottom line, meanwhile there's a HUGE profit margin he's making on each bike, as well as when he sells you a deeply discounted crash replacement under the "lifetime warranty".

    Post number 21 & 35 displays how Ellsworth sees his customers. You don't have to be a psychologist to understand how he markets and what he thinks of who he markets to.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=25087
    and your point is???

    i am glad that you saw Ellsworth stragegies through and that you will never buy Ellsworth... Good for you.

    But until you bring something new to the table, I really couldn't care less what you say on the subject.

    Talking about "personal" attacks:

    Zealot:

    One who is zealous; one who engages warmly in any cause, and pursues his object with earnestness and ardor; especially, one who is overzealous, or carried away by his zeal; one absorbed in devotion to anything; an enthusiast; a fanatical partisan.

    Anything wrong with being zealous about mountain biking???

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    You're an Ellsworthian zealot. greater than 90% of what you say has nothing to do with defending ellsworth based on facts and the whole ew bashing would've died if you didn't get lured into creating a trainwreck by just about everyone.

    Solid entertainment, however. That is commendable. I'm sure you increased the hits the board got at Tony's expense.

    I must say reading through the threads are eyeopening. There are tons of dead links to other threads, though, so this probably goes waaay back.http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?...7&postcount=21

    Here is pretty weird where Jim asks people to say something to his face. That's the mentality of the company you're dealing with. They can't take the heat in the forum for their consumers, so they want you to say something to their face...if you dare.

    I also remember reading something about Rroeder (?) breaking his bike and then breaking the replacement soon after, only to hear he's SOL and then EW attacks him in a viscious manner.

    This is a company that no one should deal with and deserves to have as much negative word of mouth as they get. The word has gotten out and I'm sure Tony's sales are suffering. Last ditch to save his business because he's not selling as much as he used to.
    Last edited by mtbgrasshopper; 02-20-2005 at 09:17 AM.

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    great..

    i obviously couldnt fool you... you are one tough and smart cookie... i am just not that good, what can i say...

    Ellsworthian zealot? thanks, i'll take that compliment. You are so kind.

    90% of what i say has nothing to do with facts? well, i can assure you one thing, 100% of what i say is based on MY EXPERIENCE RIDING MY TRUTH. I guess that is not important in your books, and those that never rode Ellsworth can make statements that you will appreciate more... that is fine...

    Entertainment it is... You got it right. Life is tough enough to not have fun as much as you can. I certainly try.

    As far as Ellsworth sales drop, it is as much true as weapons of mass destruction in Iraq... Honestly, why would you care about Ellsworth anyway? you wouldnt buy it, you dont think it is worth the money, you think other bikes are better - so why do you care about Ellsworth? Along the same lines - why would we care what you think about Ellsworth?

    Get on your bike, whatever it is, and burn some of your life frustrations off on the trail... I dont bash your bike, i dont say it is piece of crap, i dont say it's manufacturer sucks etc. I hope you enjoy it and it makes you happy, and i expect the same in return from you.

    Am i asking for too much?

    Thank you.

    Oggie



    Quote Originally Posted by mtbgrasshopper
    You're an Ellsworthian zealot. greater than 90% of what you say has nothing to do with defending ellsworth based on facts and the whole ew bashing would've died if you didn't get lured into creating a trainwreck by just about everyone.

    Solid entertainment, however. That is commendable. I'm sure you increased the hits the board got at Tony's expense.

    I must say reading through the threads are eyeopening. There are tons of dead links to other threads, though, so this probably goes waaay back.http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?...7&postcount=21

    Here is pretty weird where Jim asks people to say something to his face. That's the mentality of the company you're dealing with. They can't take the heat in the forum for their consumers, so they want you to say something to their face...if you dare.

    I also remember reading something about Rroeder (?) breaking his bike and then breaking the replacement soon after, only to hear he's SOL and then EW attacks him in a viscious manner.

    This is a company that no one should deal with and deserves to have as much negative word of mouth as they get. The word has gotten out and I'm sure Tony's sales are suffering. Last ditch to save his business because he's not selling as much as he used to.

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    The 90% refers to you attacking everyone and anyone on the board.

    I see your diversion tactics in relating EW to WMD's. WMD's and EW frames seem to blow up quite a bit. Maybe they'll put EW badges on them???

    My life is not tough. I am very comfortable with my life and my decisions, especially not to ruin my recreation time by buying to a company with such a dismal record for customer satisfaction. I have to thank you and the others for that. If you didn't start the EW threads and perpetuate this trainwreck, I may be looking at a broken bike right now with an upcharge, despite the bike being new.

    I see some are happy, but the fact remains, why are some so unhappy???

    Again, thanks for starting these threads, Osokolo.

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    you are welcome grasshopper

    see, i helped you make the right decision - and i am very happy about that... this board has served it's purpose...

    news flash: there were NO WMD IN IRAQ. Stop watching FOX News or at least inform yourself properly.

    another news flash: there was not a single breakage reported on 04 or newer Truths... in the meantime, i know of at least couple of Turners breakages reported on this board... So before you make your "...not to ruin my recreation time by buying to a company with such a dismal record for customer satisfaction..." statements, check the facts...

    By mentioning broken Turners I am in no way implying that they are not good bikes. Quite to the contraty, I think that Turner makes some among the best bikes on the planet. I am just saying that any bike can break, not that iti is a rocket science....

    see, we've gone through few posts and I still havent personally attacked you. Why do you think it is?

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbgrasshopper
    The 90% refers to you attacking everyone and anyone on the board.

    I see your diversion tactics in relating EW to WMD's. WMD's and EW frames seem to blow up quite a bit. Maybe they'll put EW badges on them???

    My life is not tough. I am very comfortable with my life and my decisions, especially not to ruin my recreation time by buying to a company with such a dismal record for customer satisfaction. I have to thank you and the others for that. If you didn't start the EW threads and perpetuate this trainwreck, I may be looking at a broken bike right now with an upcharge, despite the bike being new.

    I see some are happy, but the fact remains, why are some so unhappy???

    Again, thanks for starting these threads, Osokolo.

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    I never brought up Turner, so why are you? I don't ride a Turner and didn't make this a Turner vs. EW issue.

    Again, the issue is not WMD, politics, WWIII, or what have you. This is EW.

    This company does not deserve to be in business because of their willful initiatives to defraud the consumer. Even when they try to clear things up, they only make it worse. I love the wording in their warranty statement on a previous thread where they say "interpretation". Obviously, Tony is carefully chooses his words.

    Other companies, let's say Turner, since you brought them up can throw the CS in your face because you think it's a Turner vs EW issue right away, which it is not. They want to have some fun with you, so they do. Turner doesn't have such hard feelings because they do the right thing. The warranty isn't shrouded with conflicting terminology, such as "lifetime" and "model changes" and "upcharge". I bought a Titus (at a savings over EW) and saw the same clear warranty. If the bike breaks during the warranty period, it will be fixed or replaced. Simple. Almost all companies offer nominal crash replacements. EW's warranty, as it has been concluded, is no more than a crash replacement at full dealer wholesale (perhaps even more), so EW made his profit off you once for the initial purchase and everytime you bring your bike back after it breaks.

    He's an awesome businessman because his devotees will pay and pay and pay. Meanwhile, Santa Cruz, Turner, Ventana, Intense, and many others have a quiet following of devotees that know what the real story is and they're with companies that will do the right thing.

  49. #49
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    you did not answer my last question...

    i brought up Turner only because it stands as one of the best examples of positive user experience.... Just for comparison, that is all...

    I appreciate your opinion, you are certainly entitled to it. Needless to say, i dont entirely agree with it.

    I did consider Turner, Santa Cruz and Titus before i made my purchase in Dec. 03. I read all the threads about Ells warranty etc... Went with 04 Truth over 5 Spot, Blur and Racer X... dont want to go into explaining my reasons, no need here...

    I couldnt be happier with my decision, but am also cogniscent that i would have felt about the same if i bought any of the listed bikes, if they fit my requirements better than the Truth...

    At the end of the day, it is about picking up the right bike for what you intend to use it for and being happy about it... Why would you come here and piss in my coffee with your comments that are not based on YOUR experience? You chose to accept the grief of those who werent treated the way they should by the manufacturer, over the joy of those who are happy owners and who are in great majority... Personally, i dont have any problems with your decision. I obviously went the other direction and havent regret it...

    I am sorry for those that havent been treated the right way and am hoping that it would not happen again. I have seen many bad exampled with many big name companies (Merc. Benz, BMW, Sony etc) but they are in great minority compared with good CS experiences... That is why it is good to have competing manufacturers in any category so that buyers have a choice.... With only few boutique manufacturers still on the block, wishing to one of them to go belly up is really couner-productive to say at least, if you are a real biking enthusiast.

    I am still awaiting your response to my question as to why do you think I still didnt personally attack you. Please?



    Quote Originally Posted by mtbgrasshopper
    I never brought up Turner, so why are you? I don't ride a Turner and didn't make this a Turner vs. EW issue.

    Again, the issue is not WMD, politics, WWIII, or what have you. This is EW.

    This company does not deserve to be in business because of their willful initiatives to defraud the consumer. Even when they try to clear things up, they only make it worse. I love the wording in their warranty statement on a previous thread where they say "interpretation". Obviously, Tony is carefully chooses his words.

    Other companies, let's say Turner, since you brought them up can throw the CS in your face because you think it's a Turner vs EW issue right away, which it is not. They want to have some fun with you, so they do. Turner doesn't have such hard feelings because they do the right thing. The warranty isn't shrouded with conflicting terminology, such as "lifetime" and "model changes" and "upcharge". I bought a Titus (at a savings over EW) and saw the same clear warranty. If the bike breaks during the warranty period, it will be fixed or replaced. Simple. Almost all companies offer nominal crash replacements. EW's warranty, as it has been concluded, is no more than a crash replacement at full dealer wholesale (perhaps even more), so EW made his profit off you once for the initial purchase and everytime you bring your bike back after it breaks.

    He's an awesome businessman because his devotees will pay and pay and pay. Meanwhile, Santa Cruz, Turner, Ventana, Intense, and many others have a quiet following of devotees that know what the real story is and they're with companies that will do the right thing.

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    You have previously made attacks, but you've been a good boy for now. I won't speculate on why. Answer the question for yourself.

    HOWEVER, I look at your wording and you seem to think the moment someone says something about EW, you think they are making an attack directed personally at you, akin to the people that think their TV's are talking directly to them:
    Why would you come here and piss in my coffee
    I'm simply stating the resultant of the efforts of those looking to find the facts. It was tough and I still can't find much of the information that you started by spawning these threads. Remember, it is your name at the beginning of the earliest ones of these threads. I believe consumers will visit these forums looking for information. How can they make a good decision if they can't find anything about the EW warranty and horrific CS issues? They deserve to make the right decision.
    I respect those that take their chances with knowing about the issues that still buy EW. I feel bad for those that don't know and have the problems, ending up paying the price of two frames to get it right, then sitting on something you don't have confidence in. The company has major problems from the ground up that haven't been addressed for years now. They have been defrauding customers for years and have created their own negative word of mouth advertising. Anyone here knows that EW's are prone to breakage, in which case, you're SOL.

    Evidence of the problem is their attitude towards the buying public, most particularly what was evidenced by their response to Rroeder.

    I'm sure you didn't know anything about the troubles when you bought until you visited here. If you did, you would've have bought into EW. I'm sure you'll end up tapping into the EW warranty dept. if you abuse your bike as much as you claim to.

  51. #51
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    Ring a ding, ding...

    ...Does the name "Pavlov" ring a bell?
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  52. #52
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    let me help you dude...

    you are discussing the issue with some reason and you didnt go "personal" with me. That is why I didnt fire back at you and gave you some or your "would be" own medicine. Those are the reasons that compelled me into becoming "personal" with some posters, and you know who they are.

    You however, continue to spout stuff that you chose to accept over positive experiences. FIne, again that is your opinion and since you havent owned an Ellsworth, do you think that potential buyers will give it any weight?

    I stated many times that I have read all the Ells warranty posts BEFORE i purchase my 04 Truth. I cant be happier with my decision.

    You are talking about Ells CS as "horrific" ignoring way MORE people that had POSITIVE experience. You think that it will give you credibility in the eyes of potential buyers?

    Those that are in the market for a bike WILL FIND THE INFO THEY NEED. I did when i was looking for it, without any problems. It is interesting that all you Ells haters have a problem with someone who doesnt agree with you and whose experience is positive. If you let yourself be so vocal, dont jump on me for being on the other side...

    I think i have said everything i had to say so barring something that you bring up and has not been discussed, i'll wrap it up here...

    Thanks for sharing your views...

    Oggie

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbgrasshopper
    You have previously made attacks, but you've been a good boy for now. I won't speculate on why. Answer the question for yourself.

    HOWEVER, I look at your wording and you seem to think the moment someone says something about EW, you think they are making an attack directed personally at you, akin to the people that think their TV's are talking directly to them:


    I'm simply stating the resultant of the efforts of those looking to find the facts. It was tough and I still can't find much of the information that you started by spawning these threads. Remember, it is your name at the beginning of the earliest ones of these threads. I believe consumers will visit these forums looking for information. How can they make a good decision if they can't find anything about the EW warranty and horrific CS issues? They deserve to make the right decision.
    I respect those that take their chances with knowing about the issues that still buy EW. I feel bad for those that don't know and have the problems, ending up paying the price of two frames to get it right, then sitting on something you don't have confidence in. The company has major problems from the ground up that haven't been addressed for years now. They have been defrauding customers for years and have created their own negative word of mouth advertising. Anyone here knows that EW's are prone to breakage, in which case, you're SOL.

    Evidence of the problem is their attitude towards the buying public, most particularly what was evidenced by their response to Rroeder.

    I'm sure you didn't know anything about the troubles when you bought until you visited here. If you did, you would've have bought into EW. I'm sure you'll end up tapping into the EW warranty dept. if you abuse your bike as much as you claim to.

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    But many, many people have had horrific experiences. We still have no true explanation why, other than greed. There's plenty of business one can do on a good reputation, so why resort to bilking the very people who are devoted to riding your bikes?

    This is the internet. How could you be compelled to making the issue personal? Over a bike? The bike isn't your being and if you're an owner that is not related to EW in any way, you could go on a mission to find out and get together with other EW owners and get to the bottom of the potential problems you're sitting on. You have the number, so you can make calls to EW, even ask him to publically speak on his motivation behind his business practices. You know, constructive stuff. Instead, anyone that speaks up about EW or wants to find what the negative aspects are were being told that they're bashers or haters. I don't hate EW, but I think anyone who rips off anyone is a POS.

    The only reason why Tony was able to institute these shady business practices is because his customers over the years let him do so.

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    well...

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbgrasshopper
    But many, many people have had horrific experiences. We still have no true explanation why, other than greed. There's plenty of business one can do on a good reputation, so why resort to bilking the very people who are devoted to riding your bikes?
    if that is how you see things, fine. From your post one may think that no one got their warranty the way they expected. I hope you realize that this is not true. There were many posters on this very board that praised EW for ther CS and prompt attention to the owner's problem. Am i right here?


    This is the internet. How could you be compelled to making the issue personal? Over a bike? The bike isn't your being and if you're an owner that is not related to EW in any way, you could go on a mission to find out and get together with other EW owners and get to the bottom of the potential problems you're sitting on.
    another wrong conclusion. When i became personal with people that bashed EW it was not because they were bashing EW, it was because of the way they were doing it and in the process they made it personal as well. Insults were thrown not only by me, but also by the other side. You do realize that for an argument, you need two sides, dont you? the other side was no better than I. Need i remind you of the crap that was posted by pete and few others, that was even beyond personal. You didnt address them, for whatever reason... It seems that you have a problem only with those who support EW. Talking about being biased...


    You have the number, so you can make calls to EW, even ask him to publically speak on his motivation behind his business practices. You know, constructive stuff. Instead, anyone that speaks up about EW or wants to find what the negative aspects are were being told that they're bashers or haters. I don't hate EW, but I think anyone who rips off anyone is a POS.
    why would i call Tony??? I have received nothing but a good service from EW, someone would always pick up the phone when i called and answered all my inquires... The picture you are painting is inaccurate in my opinion and as a proof i can only draw your attention to the fact that EW is still around and going strong, despite some "rumors" lanuched on this board by EW haters that it is "otherwise"...



    The only reason why Tony was able to institute these shady business practices is because his customers over the years let him do so.
    damn, he must be making some pretty sweet bikes, or all his customers are dumb foks... maybe i am dumb too, just dont want to admit it... I have to ask Pete what he thinks about that... no, wait... i think i know what he would say...

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    What would Pete say and why do you bring him into this matter?

    By your convention, your one positive experience can be interpreted similarly as your case for the ones who have had major issues.

    And you act as if I didn't read the threads. YOU WERE PERSONALLY ATTACKING ANYONE AND EVERYONE the moment they would ask something constructive. You jumped all over me the moment I asked for more information.

    What do you think your behavior has done to Tony's business? I'm sure he's not happy with you keeping the broken EW threads up top, as well as starting all of them.

    Reading through this stuff, I'm going to dispute your credentials because you seem to be more of a an EW proxy and respond in similar styles.

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    another try...

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbgrasshopper
    What would Pete say and why do you bring him into this matter?
    because i was joking. I should have known that you wouldnt get it...

    By your convention, your one positive experience can be interpreted similarly as your case for the ones who have had major issues.
    my positive experience was not ONE positive experience... Again, i spent upwards of $50,000US on my car and no one called me to ask me if i was happy with everything and if i had any questions... not that it is a big deal, but it is a touch that i appreciated... did your bike manufacturer did the same? mmmkay...

    And you act as if I didn't read the threads. YOU WERE PERSONALLY ATTACKING ANYONE AND EVERYONE the moment they would ask something constructive. You jumped all over me the moment I asked for more information.
    bleh, posts that had a baboon level of intelligence in them, including your first one, didnt deserve any better... let me remind you of your FIRST EVER post on the mtbr. It included this:

    "...I know loads of threads were deleted a while back with him at the helm with yet another person, but the only one common to all the threads staying right at the very top is osokolo.

    I thank you for helping me choose away from Ellsworth because I might be stuck with a broken bike and no money to pay to have the lifetime warranty honored..."

    your first post ever!

    pretty idiotic post, dont you think. Until that moment i didnt even communicate with you, how could i - this was your first post where you got personal with me throwing some insults around, even though i didnt do anything to you. What did you expect me to do? turn another cheek? you know, you are totally pathetic if you thought you wouldnt get a bit of your own medicine in return... and then you cry like a sissy... go figure...


    What do you think your behavior has done to Tony's business? I'm sure he's not happy with you keeping the broken EW threads up top, as well as starting all of them.

    Reading through this stuff, I'm going to dispute your credentials because you seem to be more of a an EW proxy and respond in similar styles.
    bwahahaha.... nope... another wrong assumption. If you knew anything about computers, you would have found out by now everything you need to know about me...

    i apologize if you think i called you a baboon.. i didnt.

    i have too much respect for that animal...

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    by the way...

    this is what one of the respected members of this board said about your post:



    "...People, the dude was clearly wrong...but that's the whole idea of flame-bait (intended or not): Post something obviously inflamatory and/or incorrect and see who takes the hook. Then with the heated exchange all the others who love a good flamefest chime in and throw more chum in the water.

    Don't engage, just make your point and move on. Few people really care about personal opinions some have of others. Yeah, once in a while you just gotta stand up and cry "FOUL!" but not every time..."

    his handle is bikezilla

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...365#post676365

    and he is a cool Turner dude... not EW...

    __________________



    Quote Originally Posted by mtbgrasshopper
    What would Pete say and why do you bring him into this matter?

    By your convention, your one positive experience can be interpreted similarly as your case for the ones who have had major issues.

    And you act as if I didn't read the threads. YOU WERE PERSONALLY ATTACKING ANYONE AND EVERYONE the moment they would ask something constructive. You jumped all over me the moment I asked for more information.

    What do you think your behavior has done to Tony's business? I'm sure he's not happy with you keeping the broken EW threads up top, as well as starting all of them.

    Reading through this stuff, I'm going to dispute your credentials because you seem to be more of a an EW proxy and respond in similar styles.

  58. #58

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    99
    "What did you expect me to do? turn another cheek?"

    Wow man, you seem to have some issues for taking the internet so seriously. How about not reading the threads, or going back to driving that $50k car of yours?

    As I said, you started all of these Ellsworth warranty threads and kept them in the foreground. You should expect stuff like this to happen. Once again, the tv isn't talking directly to you, Loogie. Time to put your foil hat back on.

    I wonder what Tony thinks about your mission. Does he cringe every time he sees your name at the end of every thread, keeping it up for all these months?

  59. #59
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,104

    bleh...

    you are making less and less sense... i did not start any of the warranty posts... you must be out of your mind...

    bikezilla was right...

    now i'll let you play all by yourself... promise me you won't cry...




    Quote Originally Posted by mtbgrasshopper
    "What did you expect me to do? turn another cheek?"

    Wow man, you seem to have some issues for taking the internet so seriously. How about not reading the threads, or going back to driving that $50k car of yours?

    As I said, you started all of these Ellsworth warranty threads and kept them in the foreground. You should expect stuff like this to happen. Once again, the tv isn't talking directly to you, Loogie. Time to put your foil hat back on.

    I wonder what Tony thinks about your mission. Does he cringe every time he sees your name at the end of every thread, keeping it up for all these months?

  60. #60

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    99

    Good job!

    Believe me, the pleasure was all mine

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