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  1. #1
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    i can hardly wait to see the reaction at the lbs

    in Canada, a new Id frame retailed for $3100 cdn in Toronto...with the new price list, the Epiphany will be at least $$3600 cdn, probably more

    http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za...RODUCT.ID=1807

    Ellsworths are fairly scarce up here...my lbs, the only dealer in central Canada, sells only a couple each year

  2. #2
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    help me out, why so much more?
    Your dealer pays the exact same price that Competitve Cyclist pays. Assuming they are taking a similar margin the retail price should come out close.

    $2395 U.S. = $2770 Can.

    Obviously shipping is a little higher. Is the Canadian Government taking that big of a chunk?

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    i wish i knew...my 2004 Id frame was ticketed at 3000.00 CAD and the 2005 Id he has in stock is at 3099.00 CAD. Based on the Id list price, this is about a 30% markup (prorating the exchange as well) putting the Epiphany in the 3600.00 CAD range. I haven't been at the shop for a few weeks and do not know if he has any in stock, but am curious to find out...his website claims that the 2006 Ellsworth line is "coming soon"

    For comparison he has a 2005 Intense 5.5 for 2700.00 CAD and a Turner 6 pack for about $2750.00 CAD...more examples on his web site

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    just a quick follow-up...spoke with a few people here, and transportation would be a bit more, brokerage fees are a little more as well (not a big hit,, depends on how they frames are shipped). I'm told that with free trade, duty is not a factor, especially at the high end. The government here is exploring putting a duty on imported bikes at the request of Canadian manufacturers, but this is yet to happen

    its not just frames, i was looking to upgrade my fork to a Fox 36 and it was ticketed at 1600.00 CAD, (the 40 is at $3000.00)...

    welcome to Canada, eh?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by JM01
    its not just frames, i was looking to upgrade my fork to a Fox 36 and it was ticketed at 1600.00 CAD, (the 40 is at $3000.00)...

    welcome to Canada, eh?
    Wow, and that's before your 14% tax too.

    Buy the bike in the US and ride it back over the border

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahimanic
    Wow, and that's before your 14% tax too.

    its 15%

  7. #7
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    Hmmm . . . . Bike smuggling could be a profitable business venture.

  8. #8
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    Why are they so expensive??

    $2395 with a Float R shock, you can get a 5 Spot for $500 less with a DHX air. I won't even go into the warranty/CS differences.

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    First let me say that I think the 5 Spot is a great bike, but there are some valuable(my opinion) differences in the Epiphany

    Epiphany vs. 5 Spot
    5.7 lbs(they have actually been coming in under that) vs.6.6 lbs(weighed at local shop)
    How much is .9 lbs worth????

    Anodized frame vs. Powder Coat
    Laser etched graphics vs. Decals
    Machined magnesium rockers vs. stamped? aluminum
    Sealed bearings vs. bushings
    Patented 4 bar suspension design vs. faux bar

    If its just about price, then why is a 5Spot $900 more than a Kona?
    Why is a Mercedes thousands more than a BMW?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by pecusick
    First let me say that I think the 5 Spot is a great bike, but there are some valuable(my opinion) differences in the Epiphany

    Epiphany vs. 5 Spot
    5.7 lbs(they have actually been coming in under that) vs.6.6 lbs(weighed at local shop)
    How much is .9 lbs worth????

    Anodized frame vs. Powder Coat
    Laser etched graphics vs. Decals
    Machined magnesium rockers vs. stamped? aluminum
    Sealed bearings vs. bushings
    Patented 4 bar suspension design vs. faux bar

    If its just about price, then why is a 5Spot $900 more than a Kona?
    Why is a Mercedes thousands more than a BMW?
    A couple corrections:
    2006 Five Spots will be anodized.
    Rockers are machined (not stamped) aluminum.

  11. #11
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    We get raped on all nice bikes in Canada, not just Ellsworth. When I had my Joker, the msrp was 1599 in the states and 2200+ north of the border. Taxes, brokerage fees, and mark ups hike the price. Bikes are even more expensive in Europe and Australia than Canada, so it could be worse I guess.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by pecusick
    Anodized frame vs. Powder Coat
    Laser etched graphics vs. Decals
    Machined magnesium rockers vs. stamped? aluminum
    Sealed bearings vs. bushings
    Patented 4 bar suspension design vs. faux bar
    Uh, stamped rockers? You've got to be kidding me. Are you taking crazy pills or something?

    How about them bushings with grease ports, their rigidity, longer usefull lifetime due to purging of contaiminants, and easy servicing. This is one of the biggest reasons I got the turner, so thanks for justifying it.

    Can you purge the grease out of your bearings and fill them with new grease without taking the bike apart?

    And annodization is not some sort of trump card. There are different types of powdercoats, from baked on "plastics" to hard coatings that are durable. I've owned both kinds and know the difference. I've also had annodized products that wore fairly easily. It's definitely not something to try and proclaim as "better".

    This is the difference between turner and ellsworth.

    Dave Turner does not blatently misrepresent other bike manufacturers. He and his company simply stay out of it.

    You on the other hand, are so concerned about trying to get an "edge" on everybody else that you are more inclined to try and "bend" the truth when no one is looking, and I'm not referring to the frame.
    Last edited by Jayem; 12-05-2005 at 09:00 PM.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Uh, stamped rockers? You've got to be kidding me. Are you taking crazy pills or something?

    How about them bushings with grease ports, their rigidity, longer usefull lifetime due to purging of contaiminants, and easy servicing. This is one of the biggest reasons I got the turner, so thanks for justifying it.

    Can you purge the grease out of your bearings and fill them with new grease without taking the bike apart?

    And annodization is not some sort of trump card. There are different types of powdercoats, from baked on "plastics" to hard coatings that are durable. I've owned both kinds and know the difference. I've also had annodized products that wore fairly easily. It's definitely not something to try and proclaim as "better".

    This is the difference between turner and ellsworth.

    Dave Turner does not blatently misrepresent other bike manufacturers. He and his company simply stay out of it.

    You on the other hand, are so concerned about trying to get an "edge" on everybody else that you are more inclined to try and "bend" the truth when no one is looking, and I'm not referring to the frame.
    I think he put the question mark behind the "stamped" in stamped rockers because he wasn't proclaining it to be a fact. They kinda look stamped because of the lack of tool marks commonly seen on CNC'ed parts.

    Turner has a different idea on the bearing vs. bushing thing...most high end bikes come with bearings for justifiable reasons. Turner has his reasons. Just because Ellsworth and most other bike makers disagree with DT doesn't mean the truth is being bent. Ellsworth thinks it is a selling point. BTW, Aren't 2006 Turners going to be Anoed?

    I don't see any bending of the truth. If I walked into a dealer looking at both, I would want to know the differences and maybe Mag rockers, bearings, etc. would be important. Maybe decals I can peal off would be important. Just because a manufacturer states the differences as being positives doesn't imply dishonesty.

    Now if Ellsworth had pushed a particular suspension design for years, saying it was the only way to design a bike, then suddenly changed his mind to stop paying royalties...then I might feel like the truth had been bent. I think Ellsworth has remained true to their ideas and it is not wrong to "sell" them.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doubleoh9
    I think he put the question mark behind the "stamped" in stamped rockers because he wasn't proclaining it to be a fact. They kinda look stamped because of the lack of tool marks commonly seen on CNC'ed parts.
    Are you sure you know what "stamped" pieces look like? Are you sure you know what "CNCed" peices look like? You can polish a CNC piece, and you can stamp on texture if you like. IMO, the pecusick guy would have to be a moron to think that the rockers were "stamped". He's in the industry and he should know better. There's so many ways to manufactuer parts, high strength single crystal cast alloys, forged and then machined, etc. The straight edges of the turner rockers are usually giveaways that they are CNCed, but it doesn't always mean that a certain part is CNCed from an entire block. What manufacturer uses stamped linkage plates? I don't know of any quality manufacturers that do, and it seemed a pretty deliberate peice of misinformation. Yes, there was a question mark, but he still should have known better.

    Turner has a different idea on the bearing vs. bushing thing...most high end bikes come with bearings for justifiable reasons. Turner has his reasons.
    Name one reason that the bearings are better than zerk bushings? The pivots in suspension are over-leveraged, so it's not about friction. The pivots in suspension need lateral rigidity, and while "enduro" or "max" type bearings are better than skateboard bearings, they've got a long way to go to even match up to an angular contact bearing or needle bearing, much less the rigidity of a bushing. There's also the issue of limited rotation, we're not talking about a wheel that spins millions of times on a ride, the suspension will only rotate a few degrees, causing bearings to pit, bearing races or recepticals to enlarge and deform, and ultimately shortening the lifespan due to the distribution of forces.

    You're right that most bikes come with bearings for justifiable reasons though, cause bearings are cheap.

    The only other manufacturer that really addresses this IMO is Ventana, with their double-bearing designs that distribute the stress over an area basically 2x of regular bearings. This also addresses the lateral rigidity issue greatly.

    BTW, Aren't 2006 Turners going to be Anoed?
    Well smarty pants, you missed my point. Whoosh! The point was that neither annodizing or powder coat is "better", they both have advantages and disadvantages. I've seen good and bad examples of both.


    So bearings/bushings aside, the point is that percusick should have known better, especially with the "rockers" and "anno" comments. That was just BS. The "sealed" bearings vs the properly named "zerk bushings" is also pretty funny.
    Last edited by Jayem; 12-05-2005 at 09:52 PM.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Are you sure you know what "stamped" pieces look like? Are you sure you know what "CNCed" peices look like?
    I know what CNC'ed parts look like...actually have made a few in my time...I was just trying to say that he put the question mark on it because he possible wasn't sure. Maybe he's not a machinist. I know plenty of people in the bike business that wouldn't know a ball nose end mill from a pencil. Also, I'm sure that not knowing the process used to fab a part does not imply that someone is a moron...it is unfair to call someone a moron who doesn't have your vast knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Name one reason that the bearings are better than zerk bushings? The pivots in suspension are over-leveraged, so it's not about friction. The pivots in suspension need lateral rigidity, and while "enduro" or "max" type bearings are better than skateboard bearings, they've got a long way to go to even match up to an angular contact bearing or needle bearing, much less the rigidity of a bushing. There's also the issue of limited rotation, we're not talking about a wheel that spins millions of times on a ride, the suspension will only rotate a few degrees, causing bearings to pit, bearing races or recepticals to enlarge and deform, and ultimately shortening the lifespan due to the distribution of forces.
    By your example of parts that only rotate a few degrees, I guess we should be using bushings in out Headsets.... Good leverage on them bars too. I'm glad you agree with DT, but can't different manufacturers disagree?

    It is quite common in engineering to use bearings on leveraged components that don't experience multiple rotations. Generally, one can design a robust system with no lash using bearings. My last bike, a Specialized FSR with the cheapest bearings man can buy lasted thousands of miles in all weather with these inferior bearings.

    This doesn't have to become a fight over different technology, Turner likes bushings (looks like you do too) and Ells and others like bearings. If Ells sells bearings as an advantage, he and his should be able to point out that they consider it an advantage. Simple, not dishonest. You strongly believe bushings are better and percusick thinks bearing are...so why is it that he's the one that is dishonest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    You're right that most bikes come with bearings for justifiable reasons though, cause bearings are cheap.
    Last time I checked, quality bearings were a bit more expensive than bushings...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    The only other manufacturer that really addresses this IMO is Ventana, with their double-bearing designs that distribute the stress over an area basically 2x of regular bearings. This also addresses the lateral rigidity issue greatly.
    That is not the only way to address lateral rigidity. I could design a different rocker that had single bearings at each pivot that could be just as rigid (or more). The point is that there are many differing ideas when it comes to engineering a solution to a problem...you may think that yours is better while another engineer thinks he has the solution. Each side can have valid arguments but rarely is it as definitive as you try and make it seem...Not all manufacturers are after the bottom line and if bushings were the best they would have them on their bike in a second. Ventana is a perfect example of this. Ventana really cares about bikes, but even Ventana has moved away from bushings. Great bike makers can disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Well smarty pants, you missed my point. Whoosh! The point was that neither annodizing or powder coat is "better", they both have advantages and disadvantages. I've seen good and bad examples of both.
    Actually, I didn't miss your point, but thanks for acting like a 12 year old...those were good times. My point was that Ells thinks it is a selling point and it appears that DT may think so too (as of 2006.) I never said ano was better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    So bearings/bushings aside, the point is that percusick should have known better, especially with the "rockers" and "anno" comments. That was just BS. The "sealed" bearings vs the properly named "zerk bushings" is also pretty funny.
    I think percusick was making a sales pitch for the Ells and he and Ells thinks that these features set them above the competition. You find me one manufacturer that doesn't sell their ideas. Heck, look at your buddy DT. He sells his bushings as being better, he is selling this new TNT thing as beign just as good or better...I expect him to do this. I mean, he is in the business of selling bikes and he better believe he's got the better mouse trap.

    Differences in design don't imply dishonesty. You jumped on percusick for a believing that his product is superior for the reasons he spelled out...then you try to make it seem like the Ellsworth philosophy is all about dishonesty. That's just not fair. If you were chapped about the Kona comment, just say it...

  16. #16
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    Turning this into political thread!

    You Canadians have to pay more for the simple fact that you don't have to live in the country whose president is...well you know his name! And you get free health care too, right? I pay ~ 150/mo for mine just in case i bust my collarbone riding , soo actually on an annual basis, your Ellss is a deal!

    Beer has food value. Food has no beer value.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biker75
    You Canadians have to pay more for the simple fact that you don't have to live in the country whose president is...well you know his name! And you get free health care too, right? I pay ~ 150/mo for mine just in case i bust my collarbone riding , soo actually on an annual basis, your Ellss is a deal!

    He's paying 15% sales tax and god knows what in income tax and you think his health care is free?

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    I live in Alberta, Canada and pay 7% tax. There is no PST in Alberta. Yeah, we have high taxes, so health care is not really free up here. On the other hand, I have had two knee surgeries and would have had to pay around twenty thousand dollars up front, not including physiotherapy. I would not be able to afford to get the surgeries on a private system. This is when high taxes come into play.

    From what I have learned, a good health insurance plan in the states is not exactly cheap either. I have a friend working in Florida who is paying at least $200.00 a month for general health coverage.

  19. #19
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    15% sales tax in Ontario, 50% Income Tax, health care surcharge for those making a bit more than average...its like having an alligator in your wallet

    So here's my problem...i'm in Toronto, want a 2006 Epiphany and have 3 options...buy the frame in the U.S at about 2800 CAD, pay 15% tax, shipping and duty (unless i find a duty free lbs) and then still buy the components and have the bike built in Canada...i might save around $1000 CAD, but then have the hassles and potential warranty adjustment problems...or buy the complete bike in the U.S. for about 5400.00 CAD + 810 CAD (tax) = 6210.00 CAD + transportation & Duty. (probably the best option)

    Or i go to my local Ellsworth Dealer (the only dealer within 1500 miles), pay 3500.00 CAD for the frame, 1500.00 CAD for a nice fork (Fox 36), 3000.00+ for the build kit (XTR, Avid's, Chris King, Mavic tubless, Easton, Selle Italia, etc...can go downmarket for about 2200.00 (XT, Hayes,etc))...the the complete bike will be about 8000.00 CAD + 1200.00 CAD (tax) and will net out at 9200.00 CAD...thats over 7000.00 USD, more if i want to get fancy

    That's not an Epiphany, it's an effen Revelation...

    the only other bike that i've seen that comes close up here is the new Scott at 10,000.00 CAD and its a Specialized knock off...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doubleoh9
    Last time I checked, quality bearings were a bit more expensive than bushings...
    Yes, the kind that are not used in mountain bikes for the most part.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by pecusick
    First let me say that I think the 5 Spot is a great bike, but there are some valuable(my opinion) differences in the Epiphany

    Epiphany vs. 5 Spot
    5.7 lbs(they have actually been coming in under that) vs.6.6 lbs(weighed at local shop)
    How much is .9 lbs worth????

    Anodized frame vs. Powder Coat
    Laser etched graphics vs. Decals
    Machined magnesium rockers vs. stamped? aluminum
    Sealed bearings vs. bushings
    Patented 4 bar suspension design vs. faux bar

    If its just about price, then why is a 5Spot $900 more than a Kona?
    Why is a Mercedes thousands more than a BMW?
    Well, the weight diff. and the finish are good points, the other points seem more like non-issues to me, especially since the new "faux bar" design has shown to work just as well. I could counter the weight and finish with superior CS and a better shock, not to mention durability and a proven design(the overall ride, not the TNT)

    I guess when it comes down to it people will pay more for the lighter frame but these bikes are not really XC racey type bikes so personally I would choose durability over lightweight but thats me. Thanks for answering and hopefully you guys take care of your current ID owners out there with this design change.

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    JM01, What store are you dealing with because the Epiphany should be $3000 CND at the most. Previously with a distributor in Canada the pricing was out of hand but with it being direct from Ellsworth now it shouldn't be.

  23. #23
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    OMG, As soon as I hit Pauls post, I knew this thread was going to blow up. Fire control......

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    OMG, As soon as I hit Pauls post, I knew this thread was going to blow up. Fire control......
    I thought I was very well mannered myself

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevlar1973
    JM01, What store are you dealing with because the Epiphany should be $3000 CND at the most. Previously with a distributor in Canada the pricing was out of hand but with it being direct from Ellsworth now it shouldn't be.
    www.dukesonqueen.com

    last time i dropped by they did not have their 2006 models...but they did have a 2005 Id frame priced at 3099.00 CAD, with the Epiphany being a little more expensive, i prorated the the U.S Epiphany price to the old Id price...they will not be at 3000.00 CAD, probably +/- 3400.00 CAD

    its a high end store, but the only ellsworth dealer here, unless i go south

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Yes, the kind that are not used in mountain bikes for the most part.
    I think you may have bought into DT’s marketing hype...I’ve read what DT says on his website. From a cost perspective, machining a bushing like those used on DT's bikes is one of the easiest things to do. I could give you a couple of web sites for bushing and bearing suppliers and you could see for yourself just how cheap bushings are. But I’m sure you know how to use Google.

    So, what are the typical per bearing price for these cheap bearings and what is the corresponding price for these high quality bushings?

    Turner’s system used a plastic sleeve on each side and a central metal hub. These plastic sleeves can be had, retail, for about $4 for a pack of 100. The central hub can be had for around a $1 for the small ones and $3 for the large pivot ones. That’s not even bulk pricing.

    From the little poking around I did in some of my supplier catalogs, looks like I could outfit a turner bike with replacement bushings for about $3 for the large pivots and less than $1 for the small ones. Bearings for those locations, even cheap double sealed ones, are going to be close to $10 for the small pivots and closer to $15 or $20 for the large ones. High quality bearings like those used on Ventana and others are going to be even more expensive.

    I don’t know where DT gets his bushings from, but if he is paying even close to half what a bearing costs, he’s got to find a new supplier.

  27. #27
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    Surely they do not search your vehicle if you but a frame in the US of A and drive across the border to Canada............................
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  28. #28
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    The ano job on my Joker was one up on any powder coat I have seen thus far. I bought the Joker as a demo bike and rode if for a season and the paint still looked brand new. I sold my Joker to another rider and another season later, guess what, the paint/frame still looks near mint.

    One thing Ells does right is paint.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doubleoh9
    I think you may have bought into DT’s marketing hype...I’ve read what DT says on his website. From a cost perspective, machining a bushing like those used on DT's bikes is one of the easiest things to do. I could give you a couple of web sites for bushing and bearing suppliers and you could see for yourself just how cheap bushings are. But I’m sure you know how to use Google.

    So, what are the typical per bearing price for these cheap bearings and what is the corresponding price for these high quality bushings?

    Turner’s system used a plastic sleeve on each side and a central metal hub. These plastic sleeves can be had, retail, for about $4 for a pack of 100. The central hub can be had for around a $1 for the small ones and $3 for the large pivot ones. That’s not even bulk pricing.

    From the little poking around I did in some of my supplier catalogs, looks like I could outfit a turner bike with replacement bushings for about $3 for the large pivots and less than $1 for the small ones. Bearings for those locations, even cheap double sealed ones, are going to be close to $10 for the small pivots and closer to $15 or $20 for the large ones. High quality bearings like those used on Ventana and others are going to be even more expensive.

    I don’t know where DT gets his bushings from, but if he is paying even close to half what a bearing costs, he’s got to find a new supplier.
    Actually that's incorrect. Even Enduro Max Angular contact bearings (I think Ells uses these or the standard Enduro Max which are even less) are in the $3-$4 range per bearing, and that's singles pricing for me - I'm sure Ells gets them for much less than I can. Tolerances on the frame itself also have to be much more precise when using the bushing system that Turner does vs. bearings.
    Larry Mettler
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    "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity". - Dave Barry

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    Quote Originally Posted by JM01
    www.dukesonqueen.com

    last time i dropped by they did not have their 2006 models...but they did have a 2005 Id frame priced at 3099.00 CAD, with the Epiphany being a little more expensive, i prorated the the U.S Epiphany price to the old Id price...they will not be at 3000.00 CAD, probably +/- 3400.00 CAD

    its a high end store, but the only ellsworth dealer here, unless i go south
    It's unfortunate you have to deal with Duke's. Are you sure another shop couldn't get the frame in if you asked nicely? I was looking at an Ellsworth in 2001 and the shop I ended up getting my Ibis said they could get a Truth in BUT that was back in 2001.

    For the record, my Silk ti had a 3400 or 3600 CDN sticker price in 01, I can't recall right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ventanarama
    Actually that's incorrect. Even Enduro Max Angular contact bearings (I think Ells uses these or the standard Enduro Max which are even less) are in the $3-$4 range per bearing, and that's singles pricing for me - I'm sure Ells gets them for much less than I can. Tolerances on the frame itself also have to be much more precise when using the bushing system that Turner does vs. bearings.
    Larry Mettler
    Mountain High Cyclery
    I quotes retail prices from catalogs that I have. I would hope that you as a dealer would get them even cheeper. I bet you can get the bushings even cheeper...and after all that was the point.

    As for the toerances on the frame being much more precise, that's not totally true. You can have a little fudge factor when one half of your bushing is plastic and can give a little. SS isn't as forgiving if you are off by a half a thou or more.
    Last edited by Doubleoh9; 12-07-2005 at 11:45 AM.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doubleoh9
    I quotes retail prices from catalogs that I have. I would hope that you as a dealer would get them even cheeper. I bet you can get the bushings even cheeper...and after all that was the point.

    As for the toerances on the frame being much more precise, that's not totally true. You can have a little fudge factor when one half of your bushing is plastic and can give a little. SS isn't as forgiving if you are off by a half a thou or more.
    The point is that bearings are relatively inexpensive. How much more is a $3 bearing than a 30 cent bearing? Huge difference in the percentage of cost, but very small in the real world, and that's the point.

    How many bikes really use angular contact bearings? The same kind I've dealt with in the army and in aerospace (current job). Not many. The "max" bearings are better than the usual, but even still, many of them are nothing more than the "glorified skateboard bearing" propaganda that intense uses. Except here, it's a "high quality glorified skateboard bearing". You're still not going to get anywhere the rigidity of a real angular contact bearing, or that of a bushing (which is many times better than the former).

    Lastly, you honestly believe the zerk fitting bushing system with the groves and seals is going to be cheaper than a couple "skateboard' bearings? I think not. Just like bearings, there are cheap and more expensive (intracate) bushings that will cost more.

    Of course, generalizations with bushings and bearings is kind of pointless given the thousands if not millions of individual ones that exist, in many different forms and for many different usages.

    I wouldn't say a bushing is better than a bearing, but for a particular application, where lateral rigidity is important, where there's a minimum of rotational movement, in a highly leveraged enviroment where drag is not an issue, where forces perpendicular to the direction need to be transfered instead of causing binding or flex, it makes sense to have a bushing. I'd love to see a very high precision angular contact bearing setup, or needle bearing setup, except that the bearings would most likely be pretty heavy and increase the cost significantly, with marginal or no real benefit over the bushing system.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    The point is that bearings are relatively inexpensive. How much more is a $3 bearing than a 30 cent bearing? Huge difference in the percentage of cost, but very small in the real world, and that's the point...

    Lastly, you honestly believe the zerk fitting bushing system with the groves and seals is going to be cheaper than a couple "skateboard' bearings? I think not. Just like bearings, there are cheap and more expensive (intracate) bushings that will cost more...
    First off, bearings can be inexpensive, but can and do handle the loads associated with a bike with no difficulty. It really comes down to how well the system is designed. A poorly designed bearing system would be bad...as would a bushing system. But like I said before, engineers can disagree. In this case, there are some high end manufacturers that like bearings and there is one that doesn't. Without actual data of a bushed bike vs. a bearinged bike, this is a little pointless.

    As for the zerk bushings being cheaper, oh yeah. A home machinist with a lathe and some time could easily make a bunch of bushings at home...I don't think that same machinist would want to make hardened stainless steel roller bearings with double seals. Give me a broach, a tap, a lathe, and some plastic and metal and I will pop out a few zerk bushings in no time...I don't wanna try and make bearings.

    So you are in Aerospace? Do you work for Lockheed? They are still in the south bay right?

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doubleoh9
    I don't wanna try and make bearings.

    So you are in Aerospace? Do you work for Lockheed? They are still in the south bay right?
    Well, luckily for you, there are companies that just concentrate on making thousands of bearings, which is why they are cheap.

    Lockheed Martin is in many places.

    As an example, they are opening a FSS training center in this city. It's pretty nice to have LM here now. I don't live in california. Apart from my aviation connections and job, I spent many a day in the army servicing big angular contact bearings, and while they are pretty impressive, I also know that very few, if any, bicycles really use bearings that would match up with the performance and rigidity of those. You don't "need" that specific kind of bearing for lateral rigidity, as I said above there are thousands of types of bearings and we've studied several different kinds when I took classes on turbine engines. On the other hand, the "amount" of rigidity provided by these different types of bearings is usually just not on the scale of a needle/roller, or angular contact bearing. So is such a thing really "needed"? Debatable for sure, but then again I didn't spend $2000 on a frame for skateboard bearings, I wanted something better.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Well, luckily for you, there are companies that just concentrate on making thousands of bearings, which is why they are cheap.
    And those companies probably make bushings which are even cheaper!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    I don't live in california.
    Your profile said you were in Ca. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Debatable for sure, but then again I didn't spend $2000 on a frame for skateboard bearings, I wanted something better.
    and I didn't buy a $2000 frame for plastic jammed between 2 pieces of metal.

    Like I said, without a real quantitative analysis of pivot flex, this is all academic. Your study of turbine engines in the army and mine of mechanical engineering and physics brings us to differing conclusions. Just as DT has a different idea than most other high end builders doesn't mean he doesn't have a system that works great. Besides, I can't imagine it all really matters that much anyway when you look at the tire flexing, then the rim, then the spokes, then the hub, then the axle, then the frame members....by the time we get to either the bushings or the bearings...it's a little too late.

  36. #36
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    i think that i know why...

    Quote Originally Posted by pecusick
    help me out, why so much more?
    Your dealer pays the exact same price that Competitve Cyclist pays. Assuming they are taking a similar margin the retail price should come out close.

    $2395 U.S. = $2770 Can.

    Obviously shipping is a little higher. Is the Canadian Government taking that big of a chunk?
    ...becuse he knows that he can get his price.

    dropped in yesterday to get some work done on my commuter and found out that he sold the last new Id frame in Canada for 3099.00CAD, in fact, most of the 2005 frames are sold...his only carryover are 2 Turner 6packs @ 2750.00CAD and an Intense Spider @ 3250.00CAD as well as a couple of Cannondales

    no idea how these prices compare to the U.S., but as his customers are mostly urban weekend warriors working in the financial district and as he has no local competition, he can ask what he wants and get it

    some of his roadies are + 8,000.00CAD

    It would be great to see an Ellsworth dealer in Collingwood, Ontario, one of the top MTB locations in Ontario...i know that Chris at Kamikaze would love to add these bikes to his Santa Cruz, Kona, Trek, and Orange line-up

  37. #37
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    nice argument Doubleoh9...

    Quote Originally Posted by Doubleoh9
    And those companies probably make bushings which are even cheaper!



    Your profile said you were in Ca. Sorry.



    and I didn't buy a $2000 frame for plastic jammed between 2 pieces of metal.

    Like I said, without a real quantitative analysis of pivot flex, this is all academic. Your study of turbine engines in the army and mine of mechanical engineering and physics brings us to differing conclusions. Just as DT has a different idea than most other high end builders doesn't mean he doesn't have a system that works great. Besides, I can't imagine it all really matters that much anyway when you look at the tire flexing, then the rim, then the spokes, then the hub, then the axle, then the frame members....by the time we get to either the bushings or the bearings...it's a little too late.
    well done... i like your reasoning and patience.

    Jayem, please pull your pants up now, will you please???



  38. #38
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    hehe...

    Quote Originally Posted by Doubleoh9
    He's paying 15% sales tax and god knows what in income tax and you think his health care is free?
    sorry, couldnt resist...
    Attached Images Attached Images

  39. #39
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    One more thing. The Canadian government does not apply any surtaxes to Ellsworth bikes as they are made in the US they are covered under NAFTA and there is no duty on them. Oh, and yes for the most part our healthcare is free. It's not perfect but it's better then paying $300 to turn my head to the left and cough......

  40. #40
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    JM...u shop at the wrong store.....but than again...they can get away with it with their clinetelle

    try thebikezone in Mississauga or spokesn'slopes in Milton. If it too far of a drive (although it'll be worth it ) I'm sure they boys will be more than glad to ship it to your door
    I Ride, I Know

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    sorry, couldnt resist...
    LOL, thanks for that

    "free trade agreement gone wild"

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