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  1. #1
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    How does a Truth pedal ???

    I did a post in the "what bike to buy" thread, but they send me to here.
    so, here I go.

    I do have an intense spider, and love the ride.
    but, i'm into something new, for various reasons (size of the frame, wanting 10cm in front, etc...)

    As i'm racing in marathons in Europe, and as Specialized is very big over here, I was thinking about an epic. But I'm really afraid of the harsh ride (on my fox F80RLT I never use the lockout e.g., and I was horrified by a recent terralogic ride).

    Talking to some internet vendor about replacing my Spider, he thought the Truth would be something for me. He claims the bike to be more performant than my spider on rough terrain.


    In Europe there are almost no Ellsworth bikes, so I'm looking for information about the Thruth. Especially some information about the bad habits of the bike...


    One of the rather bad habits I detected was that the frames seem to brake a lot, but is this still true for the '05 frames ?

    Another one I heard about was Chain Suck. The pre-'06 specialized bikes e.g. do have a lot of chain suck in these muddy regions (i use one chain every 1000km).

    Are there other bad habits ?


    And of course, as the titel suggests : how does the bike pedal under hard pedalling ? in the small rings, or on the big ring ???

    and a last one : are the '06 frames any different than the '05 ones ?

    (I did some research over here, but it's difficult to find my way through the flame wars)
    Last edited by eugene; 01-11-2006 at 03:29 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by eugene
    I did a post in the "what bike to buy" thread, but they send me to here.
    so, here I go.

    I do have an intense spider, and love the ride.
    but, i'm into something new, for various reasons (size of the frame, wanting 10cm in front, etc...)

    As i'm racing in marathons in Europe, and as Specialized is very big over here, I was thinking about an epic. But I'm really afraid of the harsh ride (on my fox F80RLT I never use the lockout e.g., and I was horrified by a recent terralogic ride).

    Talking to some internet vendor about replacing my Spider, he thought the Truth would be something for me. He claims the bike to be more performant than my spider on rough terrain.


    In Europe there are almost no Ellsworth bikes, so I'm looking for information about the Thruth. Especially some information about the bad habits of the bike...


    One of the rather bad habits I detected was that the frames seem to brake a lot, but is this still true for the '05 frames ?

    Another one I heard about was Chain Suck. The pre-'06 specialized bikes e.g. do have a lot of chain suck in these muddy regions (i use one chain every 1000km).

    Are there other bad habits ?


    And of course, as the titel suggests : how does the bike pedal under hard pedalling ? in the small rings, or on the big ring ???

    and a last one : are the '06 frames any different than the '05 ones ?

    (I did some research over here, but it's difficult to find my way through the flame wars)
    Eugene,

    The Truth is an awesome ride! I have a '99-'00 Truth that is still going strong. I don't think I will ever get rid of it. I just put a new F100RLT on the front and it rides like a dream.

    The Truth has changed since I got mine. For one, Ells has gone from bushing pivots to bearings. They have also changed the shock mount so that it sits somewhere above the bottom bracket between the seat stay and the down tube. My shock mount is on the seat tube. The reason I've been given for this change is that it makes the bike more stable over the small bumps.

    However, even though it has changed I believe the ride is very similar (yes, I have ridden the newer model). The Truth is a very pedal efficient bike. The ICT thing really does work. At the same time, it is very active and not at all harsh. From the information you have given above, I think this would be an excellent bike for you.

    You mention the breaking thing . . . There was a problem with Truths breaking some time ago (as is readily apparent from many posts in this forum). However, Ells has worked hard to correct this problem and I believe they have done so successfully. That being said, the Truth is not designed to be a "hucker".

    Get one, you will be glad you did!

  3. #3
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    well said pinch...

    i have been riding my 04 Truth for 2 years, including 24 hours and 8 hours racing... the Truth was very reliable - 0 mechanicals, other than 1 broken chain - but that was my mistake anyway...

    Ellsworth re-designed the rocker and changed the ratio from 3:1 to 2:1 in 2004,and since then, there are almost no reported breakages... lower ratio addressed seat tube stress that lead to premature breakages in the past.. I am on average over 200lb without my gear and I ride hard... i was very pleased with the bike...

    you can set the plushnes of this bike to the level you will like the best... i have been using 5th element rear shock and fox f100x - and couldnt be happier... The Truth will definitely be plusher but not less efficient than Specialized...

    i am taking this bike to 2006 Transrockies challenge - one of the toughest MTB races in the world...

    hope this helps...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinch
    Eugene,

    The Truth is an awesome ride! I have a '99-'00 Truth that is still going strong. I don't think I will ever get rid of it. I just put a new F100RLT on the front and it rides like a dream.

    The Truth has changed since I got mine. For one, Ells has gone from bushing pivots to bearings. They have also changed the shock mount so that it sits somewhere above the bottom bracket between the seat stay and the down tube. My shock mount is on the seat tube. The reason I've been given for this change is that it makes the bike more stable over the small bumps.

    However, even though it has changed I believe the ride is very similar (yes, I have ridden the newer model). The Truth is a very pedal efficient bike. The ICT thing really does work. At the same time, it is very active and not at all harsh. From the information you have given above, I think this would be an excellent bike for you.

    You mention the breaking thing . . . There was a problem with Truths breaking some time ago (as is readily apparent from many posts in this forum). However, Ells has worked hard to correct this problem and I believe they have done so successfully. That being said, the Truth is not designed to be a "hucker".

    Get one, you will be glad you did!

  4. #4
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    The Truth is an awesome pedaling bike! One of the best if not the best.

    Long before stable platform shocks and VPP, the Truth was already pedaling without bob or squating.

    The VPP is a great pedaling bike too but it is not as active under power or when braking compared to the Truth.

    Its efficiency is one reason that it's a top choice amongst endurance racers. The Truth makes a great light duty trail bike too.

  5. #5
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    Well, we're probably all "homers," but anyway...

    After a year of trying to decide what bike to buy to replace my very tired Truth, looking at every possible option, guess what bike I'm going to get....

    Another Truth.

    Mike

  6. #6
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    Great

    The Truth is a fantastic XC bike, I can't say enough good things about it everytime I ride. People always ask me how do you like it? Well, it pedals efficiently. When you step down on the crank, the bike shoots forward with conviction. Climbing technical hills are easier because the suspension keeps the tires glued to the ground. I recently got a SC Nomad, so I can relate this to you since you have a VPP. On fireroads or smooth terrain, the VPP feels better because the rear stiffens up. On loose technical climbs, I'd rather be on the 4bar ICT because the rear is so active, I can just sit and pedal my way up. The VPP, I gotta move around to keep traction. As for big ring or little ring pedaling, I haven't experienced any noticeable bob. As long as you spin smooth circles, it's all good.

    This may be subjective, but at the end of the day, I'm still feeling good when my friends are wore out from the ride. I attribute this to the comfort of the bike, but I'm sure conditioning has a lot to do with it. Good luck with your search.

  7. #7
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    First of all, thanks for the many responses...

    This is the nicest one : "this may be subjective..."


    But I'm intrigued by : "On fireroads or smooth terrain, the VPP feels better because the rear stiffens up".

    That's definitely true, but, does that mean that doing a race on fireroads or smooth terrain (sometimes races are just like that), I will have the impression of a non performant bike ?


    What about the stiffness of the BB ? What about the reported Chain Suck ?
    Is there a difference between the '05 and the '06 models ?

    To prove your posts are NOT subjective, try to find some downsides of the bike (all bikes have negative points, the spider e.g. is a nightmare with it's bearings).

    And, can someone compare this bike to the Specialized FSR (which has now 12cm of rear suspension) ?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by eugene
    First of all, thanks for the many responses...

    This is the nicest one : "this may be subjective..."


    But I'm intrigued by : "On fireroads or smooth terrain, the VPP feels better because the rear stiffens up".

    That's definitely true, but, does that mean that doing a race on fireroads or smooth terrain (sometimes races are just like that), I will have the impression of a non performant bike ?


    What about the stiffness of the BB ? What about the reported Chain Suck ?
    Is there a difference between the '05 and the '06 models ?

    To prove your posts are NOT subjective, try to find some downsides of the bike (all bikes have negative points, the spider e.g. is a nightmare with it's bearings).

    And, can someone compare this bike to the Specialized FSR (which has now 12cm of rear suspension) ?
    You are asking how the Truth pedals in the Ellsworth forum. We are all proud owners so of course we are "subjective"! You would be fooling yourself to think otherwise.

    The Truth also performs great on smooth, fire roads. It's just that the VPP may feel a bit more like hardtail compared to the ICT. I cannot speak of how the Truth pedals compared to the Spider since I've never ridden a Spider. I traded my Truth in for a Moment recently and I had the opportunity to compare the Moment to the Nomad on fire road climbs. While the Moment still pedals pretty good going up, it is not like the Truth. Comparing the Nomad to the Moment on the fire road, the Nomad felt more "hardtail" like than the Moment on the climb.

    I have not experienced much chain suck on the Truth. The only time I had problems with the chain was when it bounced too much on technical downhill and if I left it in the granny ring it would pop off sometimes.

    The 06 Truth has gone away from shot peened anodized finish to a smooth anodized finish and the jury is still out on that on durability. The shot peened finish was very durable. The chain stay has been changed to an asymmetrical one that affords more tire clearance and is suppose to be stronger. I don't think the geometry has changed much.

    The one negative I have against the Truth or the shot peened finish in general is that residue blasting beads can migrate into the seat tube and are known to scratch up seatposts.

    The only experience I had with Specialized was on Stump Jumpers before stable platform shocks came out. While both are Horst Link bikes, the Stump Jumpers bobbed noticeably compared to the Truth.

  9. #9
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    I notice zero bob on fireroad, including some very long events such as Shenandoah and Wild 100's, both of which have a lot of fireroad.
    When I ride behind other people with Truths (the shop for our team gives us a great deal), you can see the suspension working on fireroad, but as a rider I never notice it.
    I have a "faux bar" trail bike that I do notice the bob on, not that it really bothers me.
    As far as stiffness, the bike is super-stiff. That said, there was a huge difference between a square taper bottom bracket and one of the new "thru-shaft" type Shimano cranksets- I cannot recommend the new Shimano cranksets enough. It was an immediately noticeable improvement on both of my bikes...
    Mike

  10. #10
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    Oh- problems with the bike. It's not a hucker, it's a thoroughbred. That's why I got a trailbike. You can feel the limitations of the suspension in 1/2 mile long rock gardens or over a series of 2-3 foot drops that are frequent trail features where I ride. It rides these sections, but it does feel like you are using a hatchet for a job that needs an axe, or some such stupid analogy.
    After 4 years of HEAVY use on techinical terrain, there's some very significant dents in my downtube from rocks bouncing up and the suspension movement has carved some nice divots into the top tube with the rear cable housing before I noticed what was happening. If you get an Elllsworth, immediately apply protective patches at all points where hydraulic or cable housing comes into contact with the frame.
    Note, however, that despite all this, the bike is still functioning fine. I did have to replace the chainstay when it broke at the classic point, but that problem is supposedly addressed in the '06 chainstay design.
    Remember, I have lots of options for new bikes through my LBS including Titus, Scott, Jamis, GT and IF at a great deal. I'm geting the Ellsworth again.
    Mike

  11. #11
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    For 2006, it appears that the bike is virtually new, including a new tubing design and asymetrical chainstays.

    As Ahimanic stated, shot peened finish is gone, but the frame is still annodized.

    Either way, you can't go wrong. There are no fundamental design changes that make one year vastly superior to the other. I think the new stays will be positive in the long run, though, and may offer better mud clearance. Personally, I'd go for a '06, but it may depend on availability for you. I don't know when the new Truths will be available. Probably spring/summer.
    Last edited by chad1433; 01-12-2006 at 08:13 AM.

  12. #12
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    Definately hold out for the '06 if you can afford the wait. I say this because my '06 Epiphany frame is a perfect work of art, and I truely believe that the new tube sets that are used on the 06 bikes (including the Truths) will bring improved long term reliability to Ellsworth - but that is TRUELY subjective, and will only be proved in time.

    I don't know how rough the coarse is that you will be racing on, but I would like suggest that you take a look at the Epiphany too - at "nearly" the same weight as the Truth but with 5.25" of travel, it may offer you less physical fatigue during epic rides/races with minimal energy penalties. My Epi rides, in my opinion, as efficiently as my old hard tail.

    I can't wait to see the '06 Truths and Moments in person, I think it's going to be a BIG year for Ellsworth.
    Hydrate or Die Trying

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown
    Oh- problems with the bike. It's not a hucker, it's a thoroughbred. That's why I got a trailbike. You can feel the limitations of the suspension in 1/2 mile long rock gardens or over a series of 2-3 foot drops that are frequent trail features where I ride. It rides these sections, but it does feel like you are using a hatchet for a job that needs an axe, or some such stupid analogy.
    After 4 years of HEAVY use on techinical terrain, there's some very significant dents in my downtube from rocks bouncing up and the suspension movement has carved some nice divots into the top tube with the rear cable housing before I noticed what was happening. If you get an Elllsworth, immediately apply protective patches at all points where hydraulic or cable housing comes into contact with the frame. Note, however, that despite all this, the bike is still functioning fine. I did have to replace the chainstay when it broke at the classic point, but that problem is supposedly addressed in the '06 chainstay design.
    Remember, I have lots of options for new bikes through my LBS including Titus, Scott, Jamis, GT and IF at a great deal. I'm geting the Ellsworth again.
    Mike
    Mr. Brown,
    You mention applying protective patches where the cables contact the frame. I have applied the small patches to my bike that look like carbon fiber only to have them fall off after one or two rides due to the stiffness of the patch. When you try to apply the flat patch to a tubular frame tube, the edges of the patches peel up and off. What have you gentlemen used to protect your frames and where did you purchase the patches? I am waiting for my new Epiphany to arrive and I want to have the patches ready for the big day. Thanks for your kind help!

  14. #14
    Time is not a road.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pachaven
    Mr. Brown,
    You mention applying protective patches where the cables contact the frame. I have applied the small patches to my bike that look like carbon fiber only to have them fall off after one or two rides due to the stiffness of the patch. When you try to apply the flat patch to a tubular frame tube, the edges of the patches peel up and off. What have you gentlemen used to protect your frames and where did you purchase the patches? I am waiting for my new Epiphany to arrive and I want to have the patches ready for the big day. Thanks for your kind help!
    I got some 3M vinyl, clear patches from my LBS. I think they're something they got at Lowes or some other store because I've never seem them in any other bike shop. They're very thick and the adhesive is strong. Once on, they're difficult to see, but they work great. I'm not sure what they're original design purpose is. In this pic, you might be able to barely make out the one(s) I have on the downtube:
    Attached Images Attached Images

  15. #15
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    i just use...

    Quote Originally Posted by chad1433
    I got some 3M vinyl, clear patches from my LBS. I think they're something they got at Lowes or some other store because I've never seem them in any other bike shop. They're very thick and the adhesive is strong. Once on, they're difficult to see, but they work great. I'm not sure what they're original design purpose is. In this pic, you might be able to barely make out the one(s) I have on the downtube:
    couple of layers of electrical tape - it is much softer than the cable jacket and dont damage the paint... i have to re-do them every couple of months...

    i tried those carbon fiber patches and they didnt work for me either... shot penned finish is hard to adhere to...

  16. #16
    MountainGoat aka OldGoat
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    Thanks gentlemen! I will try the 3M.

  17. #17
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    All the Truths in my riding group never really had an issue with cable rubbing off the finish. I think one Truth is finally showing some rub marks after 4 years of riding. It could also be that we used Avid kevlar housings and the housings tend to rub through before the finish.

    I've also seen the use of clear vinyl air hose over cable housings, sections of thin vinyl air hose are inserted over the cable housing strategically in areas that rub.

  18. #18
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    I use a heavy-grade electrical tape-it's looks about 5x thicker than regular electrical tape. Great stuff, available at any hardware store.
    Also, it helps to clean the tubes thoroughly with alchohol before applying adhesive. This removes any oil, just like on rotors. Remember to let the alchohol completely evaporate.
    Mike

  19. #19
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    Park Tire Patches

    I use the Park Tool Emergency Tire Boot patches. Just cut them to size to prevent cable rub.

    http://www.parktool.com/products/det...17&item=TB%2D2

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by pachaven
    Thanks gentlemen! I will try the 3M.
    Try a motor cycle store. BMW owners often use them to protect the decals etc. I've used the 3M stuff on every bike I've owned since my Mantis Pro Floater in 1990. The stuff is TOUGH.

    Just make sure that you cut the edges curved. Otherwise dirt will get under the corners.

    'snitch.

  21. #21
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    thanx

    Hi all,

    thanx a lot for your wonderful input. great class of you all. i'v seen other things on the net, this is really nice posting.

    but helas, i did buy a complete bike, a specialized epic. I will test ride three months with it, and then eventually sell the frame only, and buy the ellsworth instead.

    Problem is that the epic is sold at 10km from here, the ellsworth is 330km from here. This solution is a bit weird, but in the end it's cheaper, whatever happens.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by eugene
    Hi all,

    thanx a lot for your wonderful input. great class of you all. i'v seen other things on the net, this is really nice posting.

    but helas, i did buy a complete bike, a specialized epic. I will test ride three months with it, and then eventually sell the frame only, and buy the ellsworth instead.

    Problem is that the epic is sold at 10km from here, the ellsworth is 330km from here. This solution is a bit weird, but in the end it's cheaper, whatever happens.
    Eugene,

    Good luck on the Epic. Post some pics of your Ellsworth when you get it. I'd love to see one in action on some of the trails over there!

  23. #23
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    good luck with your epic

    it is one nice bike... enjoy it...



    Quote Originally Posted by eugene
    Hi all,

    thanx a lot for your wonderful input. great class of you all. i'v seen other things on the net, this is really nice posting.

    but helas, i did buy a complete bike, a specialized epic. I will test ride three months with it, and then eventually sell the frame only, and buy the ellsworth instead.

    Problem is that the epic is sold at 10km from here, the ellsworth is 330km from here. This solution is a bit weird, but in the end it's cheaper, whatever happens.

  24. #24
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    well... i'm wondering if it is.

    i wanted to put my Louise FR's on it, and that does not work. the "oil cable" leaves the caliper on the left side (if you are behind the bike) and thus touches the brain shock...

    grrr...


    should have listened to you guys... lol.

  25. #25
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    frame protection

    I saw your post about cable rub on the frame. I installed an xtr crankset in july at great personnal expensive and was aware of issues surrounding the longivity of the finish. So i set about attempting to protect it. I have used helicopter tape which is manufactured by 3M its virtually invisable and way tuff its really protected the cranks and frame from hose rub.

    I ordered it from www.justridingalong.co.uk

    Ps Ever considered i Yeti ASR fantastic race bike

    Stay Fast

    Mark

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by pachaven
    Mr. Brown,
    You mention applying protective patches where the cables contact the frame. I have applied the small patches to my bike that look like carbon fiber only to have them fall off after one or two rides due to the stiffness of the patch. When you try to apply the flat patch to a tubular frame tube, the edges of the patches peel up and off. What have you gentlemen used to protect your frames and where did you purchase the patches? I am waiting for my new Epiphany to arrive and I want to have the patches ready for the big day. Thanks for your kind help!

    Try Pace Carbon armour if you can get hoold of it in the States, Works a treat and sticks for good. I have some on my Moment and it has not moved at all. Used the stuff on my previous bike and the patches stayed solid on there for 4 years without movement. Cant go wrong with the stuff and it looks trick to boot! Not sure on availibility on Pace stuff in the US, try an internet search and you may get lucky. Pace's website is under Pace-racing.co.uk

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinch
    Eugene,

    Good luck on the Epic. Post some pics of your Ellsworth when you get it. I'd love to see one in action on some of the trails over there!
    hey pinch.

    no problem, if you send me some money, i'll make all pictures you want. some pictures of the tours I made can be found on www.bikeze.info. Try the "I baaik it an I laaik it", and then the subdivisions. Sorry for the dutch on the pages, but I translated the pictures.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by eugene
    hey pinch.

    no problem, if you send me some money, i'll make all pictures you want. some pictures of the tours I made can be found on www.bikeze.info. Try the "I baaik it an I laaik it", and then the subdivisions. Sorry for the dutch on the pages, but I translated the pictures.
    Eugene - Do you want money for the bike or for the pics? Either way, I'm not the richest stallion in the stable so I don't think that is going to happen. I did check out your pics on the Internet though. Very nice! I would love to go to Europe and ride. There are so many picturesque places over there. Much nicer than the semi-arid desert southern california surroundings I find myself in now.

  29. #29
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    www.competitivecyclist.com

    Quote Originally Posted by eugene
    hey pinch.

    no problem, if you send me some money, i'll make all pictures you want. some pictures of the tours I made can be found on www.bikeze.info. Try the "I baaik it an I laaik it", and then the subdivisions. Sorry for the dutch on the pages, but I translated the pictures.
    Eugene,

    I read your posts. You will love the Truth/Epiphany once you are able to get one. If your local dealer is too far way you should check out www.competitvecyclist.com
    I know they have Epiphanys in stock now and will get the Truth soon.
    They are first class guys and really know their stuff. Check them out!

    SR

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