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  1. #1
    Daniel the Dog
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    Ellsworths should work on making bikes that don't break

    Insteed of threatening lawsuits and patenting that stupid ICT deal. I would rather get a root canal or an enema than buy an Ellsworth. I had an Isis that had disc tabs that were not straight. Nice quality control, Tony!

    Jaybo
    Last edited by Jaybo; 12-07-2005 at 01:13 PM.

  2. #2
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    I have to take this opportunity to deride the practice of contracting out services by companies that have caused a severe decline in quality and employee wages. Its called "outsourcing". It's a far bigger domestic problem than foreign.

    We all know that frames were not welded by Ellsworth employees, yet, since they chose the outsourced frame builders, Ellsworth should be held accountable for the outsourcer's actions. Yet, it's hard to manage another company's output entirely since you rely on its management to take care of those sorts of things. Another example of work going to the lowest bidder - just like how your roads and bridges are built!

    See, I work for a company that provides outsourced labor for a major US corporation. I don't care what happens to that corporation, if it fails or succeeds. Its customers are of no real concern to me. I don't negotiate contracts or see the rewards of a job "well done". My wage is literally half or less than that of a true employee of that corporation (if there are any left. Over 60,000 employees have been laid off from that company since I started here 3 years ago). And I'm performing three times the duties that those original employees ever did. Where's my incentive for "quality"?

    So while you like to take every opportunity to beat a dead horse, I have to applaude Ellsworth for taking control of their company and moving production "in-house", where their own employees make the products, who have real concern for the quality, real concern for customer satisfaction - because their name is on the frame. It's a positive step and in time, will be recognized as such.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by chad1433
    I have to take this opportunity to deride the practice of contracting out services by companies that have caused a severe decline in quality and employee wages. Its called "outsourcing". It's a far bigger domestic problem than foreign.

    We all know that frames were not welded by Ellsworth employees, yet, since they chose the outsourced frame builders, Ellsworth should be held accountable for the outsourcer's actions. Yet, it's hard to manage another company's output entirely since you rely on its management to take care of those sorts of things. Another example of work going to the lowest bidder - just like how your roads and bridges are built!

    See, I work for a company that provides outsourced labor for a major US corporation. I don't care what happens to that corporation, if it fails or succeeds. Its customers are of no real concern to me. I don't negotiate contracts or see the rewards of a job "well done". My wage is literally half or less than that of a true employee of that corporation (if there are any left. Over 60,000 employees have been laid off from that company since I started here 3 years ago). And I'm performing three times the duties that those original employees ever did. Where's my incentive for "quality"?

    So while you like to take every opportunity to beat a dead horse, I have to applaude Ellsworth for taking control of their company and moving production "in-house", where their own employees make the products, who have real concern for the quality, real concern for customer satisfaction - because their name is on the frame. It's a positive step and in time, will be recognized as such.
    That is a really well put perspective and you are so right with your point as well. Outsourcing is really killing quality in many fields. Price to customers and profits to stock holders has taken over everything in our modern society. Eventhough I'm not a Ellsworth customer and not even a US citizen, I was really happy when I read in a magazine that they built a new plant locally and are going to produce themselves from now on. It may not change a thing with their quality, but if it is like that, it will be their own objective.

  4. #4
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    good grief...not again.

    Apparently, if there is a mfg defect, Ellsworth is addressing correcting the problem with a remarkable sense of urgency...this board has recently been filled with posts from people who have been treated well, and are very happy with the service

    Geez

  5. #5
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    I'm pretty upset that Turner had to switch to an inferior suspension design, too.

  6. #6
    Brass Nipples!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    Insteed of threatening lawsuits and patenting that stupid ICT deal. I would rather get a root canal or an enema than buy an Ellsworth. I have an Isis that had disc tabs that were not straight. Nice quality control, Tony!

    Jaybo
    Hey Smeagol, haven't visited in a while, huh?

    Momentum has really shifted away from broken bikes here. Seems that frames are breaking a lot less, and customer service has taken a big step up to take care of things when they do. In house manufacturing should also improve overall quality.

    How long ago did you have your ISIS problem? There's no excuse for misaligned tabs, but couldn't your shop face them?
    {Principal Skinner} Hmm. Whoever did this is in very deep trouble.
    {Martin} And a sloppy speller too. The preferred spelling of 'wiener' is w - i - e - n - e - r, although 'e - i' is an acceptable ethnic variant.

  7. #7
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    First off, Jaybo - I don't think there is freedom of speech where that speech is inciteful. Do your comments qualify? What a waste of energy and brain power on keystrokes to start such an irrelevant (currently) and ridiculous thread all out of (what appears to be) personal spite.

    Second, Chad - While I agree with your general comments I would like to point out that you should have two incentives to produce quality products for that company using your services. First, generally speaking, your products will carry a warranty (whether you know it or not). In some cases this warranty may only extend to the company for whom you make these products. In other cases the warranty may extend to the end user. Regardless, this can affect you financially. You may not see an immediate difference in your pocketbook but you would sure notice when your company goes under and you have no job because it cannot cover the cost of lawsuits and the warranty that it had provided in the first place. Second, it is your work. Take some pride in it. I, like most people nowadays, work to play instead of work to work (yes, there was a time when that was what we Americans did). Still, whatever you produce reflects on you. Just my .02.

  8. #8
    Time is not a road.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinch
    Second, Chad - While I agree with your general comments I would like to point out that you should have two incentives to produce quality products for that company using your services. First, generally speaking, your products will carry a warranty (whether you know it or not). In some cases this warranty may only extend to the company for whom you make these products. In other cases the warranty may extend to the end user. Regardless, this can affect you financially. You may not see an immediate difference in your pocketbook but you would sure notice when your company goes under and you have no job because it cannot cover the cost of lawsuits and the warranty that it had provided in the first place. Second, it is your work. Take some pride in it. I, like most people nowadays, work to play instead of work to work (yes, there was a time when that was what we Americans did). Still, whatever you produce reflects on you. Just my .02.
    I agree to the extent that I have doing this job and care very little for it or the end products (telecom, BTW). What we create is somewhat intangible. Much of my attitude was created by the policies of this outsourcer and not so much the parent company. Poor mangement, inequality and greed rule the roost here. I take no pride in bolstering the profits of a Corporation at the expense of so many citizens...

    So, I'm looking for something else...

  9. #9
    My cup runneth over
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechniKal
    I'm pretty upset that Turner had to switch to an inferior suspension design, too.
    Wrong board....

  10. #10
    Daniel the Dog
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    It hurts us all

    Quote Originally Posted by TechniKal
    I'm pretty upset that Turner had to switch to an inferior suspension design, too.
    Don't you get it? When companies like Ellsworth and Specialized get into this petty crap it erodes mountain biking for us all! I agree, I think Turners are clearly not as good post this fiasco as before it. The HL is the most supple suspension design on the market; however, when my Spot ends its useful like I will not be buying either an Ellsworth or a Specialized. Stikin' Tony and his band of merry morons are hurting us all.

    Jaybo

  11. #11
    The Dude Abides
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    Patents are a good thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    Don't you get it? When companies like Ellsworth and Specialized get into this petty crap it erodes mountain biking for us all! I agree, I think Turners are clearly not as good post this fiasco as before it. The HL is the most supple suspension design on the market; however, when my Spot ends its useful like I will not be buying either an Ellsworth or a Specialized. Stikin' Tony and his band of merry morons are hurting us all.

    Jaybo


    What about Santa Cruz? Maverick? GT/Haro? Patenting an invention is far from petty crap. An extreme example and not intended to represent anyone: what if you found a way to build the perfect mountain bike. No suspension bob, no brake effects, the lightest frame, by far the best bike ever made by anyone. Now what if there was no way for you to protect your idea, and any Tom, Dick or Harry can make one just like it, reaping all of the reward from your R&D. It's why we have patent laws, and there is no reason why the cycling industry should be void of it.

  12. #12
    Time is not a road.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    Don't you get it? When companies like Ellsworth and Specialized get into this petty crap it erodes mountain biking for us all! I agree, I think Turners are clearly not as good post this fiasco as before it. The HL is the most supple suspension design on the market; however, when my Spot ends its useful like I will not be buying either an Ellsworth or a Specialized. Stikin' Tony and his band of merry morons are hurting us all.

    Jaybo
    I noted that perhaps these types of patent disputes should be eliminated and was chastised because that's not "Free Market thinking". So, then, business is business.

    Turner seems to have made a decent product with TNT. Furthermore, you're speculating that this decision is based on some sort of aggressive tactics by either Specialized or Ellsworth. One could look at it and say that other designs such as VPP, Maestro and DW Link were created because of patents like these. It is quite possible that the future of suspension design has not yet been discovered.

  13. #13
    My cup runneth over
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    Don't you get it? When companies like Ellsworth and Specialized get into this petty crap it erodes mountain biking for us all! I agree, I think Turners are clearly not as good post this fiasco as before it. The HL is the most supple suspension design on the market; however, when my Spot ends its useful like I will not be buying either an Ellsworth or a Specialized. Stikin' Tony and his band of merry morons are hurting us all.

    Jaybo
    With all due respect to your point, I think your posts here predominantly make Ellsworth riders ticked at you and more protective of their brand; the latter also eroding mtbing enjoyment.

  14. #14
    Daniel the Dog
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    I think Ellsworth makes good bikes

    Quote Originally Posted by rmac
    With all due respect to your point, I think your posts here predominantly make Ellsworth riders ticked at you and more protective of their brand; the latter also eroding mtbing enjoyment.
    If you are ticked that is fine. You might vent your anger on some faceless dude on the web than your kid of boss.

    I'm not at all protective of Turner. I like their bikes but I would jump ship in a heart beat if someone could manage to make a bike clearly better than a Spot. I know Ellsworth has not...

    Jaybo

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechniKal
    I'm pretty upset that Turner had to switch to an inferior suspension design, too.
    When did that happen? What did they switch to?
    My Bike: '19 Giant Talon 2 29er
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  16. #16
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    In all fairness to Ellsworth...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    Insteed of threatening lawsuits and patenting that stupid ICT deal. I would rather get a root canal or an enema than buy an Ellsworth. I had an Isis that had disc tabs that were not straight. Nice quality control, Tony!

    Jaybo
    I think they addressed the breaking Truth issues.They did have some breaking rear end, and rocker issues also. I still think that ICT bikes put a lot of stress on the seat tube. The beefier frames can handle it. I think Tony runs into problems when he makes the ultra light frames and people use them for riding styles that don't work with an ultra light frame. I believe Aquaholic has broken a couple of 5 Spots already, before going with a 6 Pack front frame. I believe he broke at " least" one Truth frame also. He does ride a very large frame and does ride in a manner that probably won't work with an ultra light frame, as far a durability. He likes Turner's customer service(from what I've read). I also think that Turner tends to make a little heavier bike for the same travel than Ellsworth. Maybe it is all about picking the right frame for your riding style. As far as the patent issue, I wonder what would have happened if Horst Leitner had enforced his patent when Tony first started making frames? I do believe that the ICT patent had a lot to do with Turner changing his pivot location. After all, Ellsworth is making a direct competitor for the 5 Spot. Now he has the only ( ICT?) design 5 in. travel frame(no competition). We probably won't know the real truth until next year, when he won't be selling ICTs anymore(Tony's lawyers). Titus still uses the the HL but has no issue with ICT(different design). I'm not an engineer, but I find it hard to believe in a patent based on some intersecting lines using a Horst link(also), and what is up with that Atlas single pivot patent(BS). That design has been around for years. I wouldn't buy an Ellsworth because of the past customer service(last year's Moment had me tempted, though). That whole thing about having to buy a new shock because of a design flaw keeps me away. Ellsworth should have addressed the issue and ate cost of the shock. I'd probably would have bought a Moment. Maybe he has changed? I do like the idea of the in house build and the new factory in the USA. There aren't many left.
    Don

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    I like their bikes but I would jump ship in a heart beat if someone could manage to make a bike clearly better than a Spot.

    Jaybo
    That's funny

  18. #18
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    Why have new ideas if you can't patent and own them so as to make money? That's the benefit (and most of the intent, from my understanding) behind patent law- to encourage innovation. I am about as far from conservative person as can be imagined, but even I agree with this aspect of a "free market."

    I do, I will admit, take issue with Specialized purchasing a patent for an idea that was not theirs and then refusing to sell it to brands they view as serious competition. It wasn't their own idea in the first place...

    Another person's .02....

  19. #19
    The Dude Abides
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    But it worked so well for Santa Cruz

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown
    Why have new ideas if you can't patent and own them so as to make money? That's the benefit (and most of the intent, from my understanding) behind patent law- to encourage innovation. I am about as far from conservative person as can be imagined, but even I agree with this aspect of a "free market."

    I do, I will admit, take issue with Specialized purchasing a patent for an idea that was not theirs and then refusing to sell it to brands they view as serious competition. It wasn't their own idea in the first place...

    Another person's .02....


    While when that whole patent owner definition and buyout occured might have been a bit ugly, patent purchasing has had its upside. The VPP design is brilliant, but the company who owned them did a pretty poor job of making a company out of it. But thanks to Santa Cruz, we now have super sweet bikes with this great suspension and quality frames. So while the Specialized situation may not have been so good, we have seen some great innovations because of it.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    I like their bikes but I would jump ship in a heart beat if someone could manage to make a bike clearly better than a Spot. I know Ellsworth has not...
    Have you ridden every Ellsworth? Have you ridden any of the new bikes, most importantly the Epiphany which IMO is meant to compete head on with the 5-Spot? Doubtful. So, you cannot "know" that Ellsworth has not made a better bike than the 5-Spot. I'm not saying that the Epiphany is better because I haven't ridden either. But I am saying that you cannot "know" unless you have ridden it. Now, go away.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown
    Why have new ideas if you can't patent and own them so as to make money? That's the benefit (and most of the intent, from my understanding) behind patent law- to encourage innovation. I am about as far from conservative person as can be imagined, but even I agree with this aspect of a "free market."
    The Patent for ICT cites one of Turner's designs as prior art. TE just happened to patent them first and then enforced it on other brands already using them. Same with Atlas... This part of patent law in no way helps innovation. But like you say, its only my 2 cents
    "Hell, the Titus Moderator can't pass a cantina without gettin' the shakes"

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmadaleno
    The Patent for ICT cites one of Turner's designs as prior art. TE just happened to patent them first and then enforced it on other brands already using them. Same with Atlas... This part of patent law in no way helps innovation. But like you say, its only my 2 cents
    Ellsworth couldn't have patented ICT if Turner was using it prior to Ellsworth filing for the patent. Patent law may be screwy, but it's not that screwed up. And if it was, it would be pretty easy for Turner (or anyone else) to get Ellsworth's patents invalidated. Just show a product that was made prior to the patent application that uses the same technology, and the patent would be thrown out.

    The ICT patent includes references to Turner to show how ICT was different from what Turner was doing at the time. Over time, Turner's design evolved into something that very closely resembled what Ellsworth had in the ICT patent (compare the XCR rear end to a 5 Spot or Flux - the later look much more like a ICT than the older Turner design). Turner's design changed, not the patent.

    I don't like the fact that I have only one choice (maybe 2, Titus seems to still be making the RX in the US) for a domestically made, horst link equipped, XC oriented bike. Right or wrong, I think the Horst Link makes sense. I can't blame Ellsworth for that, though. It's standard business practice to patent your designs, and Ellsworth was willing to license the design.

    In the end, it forces others to innovate. Who knows - maybe Turner will come up with something that makes the Horst link look like crap. Then we'd all benefit.

  23. #23
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    Close but no cigar

    Quote Originally Posted by TechniKal
    it would be pretty easy for Turner (or anyone else) to get Ellsworth's patents invalidated. Just show a product that was made prior to the patent application that uses the same technology, and the patent would be thrown out.
    That is incorrect. The law is not that simple. If the inventor of the issued patent conceived and diligently reduced his idea to practice (TE in this case) prior to conception and reduction to practice of exactly the same invention by another inventor (DT in this case) then TE's patent holds. On the other hand, if DT invented it first, he has to show that he was diligent in reducing it to practice or he can show that (since he does not have a patent) the design was in public use at least 1 year prior to the filing of the first ICT patent application. The caveat to that is that the design that was in public use has to fall within the literal interpretation of one or more independent claims in the ICT patent. This statement is obviously a substantially over-simplified explaination of US patent law. There are lots of ifs and buts associated therewith and is subject to intepretation of a court of law.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    That is incorrect....On the other hand, if DT invented it first, he has to show that he was diligent in reducing it to practice or he can show that (since he does not have a patent) the design was in public use at least 1 year prior to the filing of the first ICT patent application. ...
    I don't see how that's any different than what I said. Wouldn't using the suspension design in a product specifically associated with what the patent was granted for qualify as 'reducing it to practice'?

    If Turner Bikes or any other maker had used a design the same as ICT on a bike prior to the ICT patent being filed, the patent could be invalidated.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechniKal
    I don't see how that's any different than what I said. Wouldn't using the suspension design in a product specifically associated with what the patent was granted for qualify as 'reducing it to practice'?
    There is a difference (see below). Yes it may be considered reduction to practice if the product is fully functional. Keep in mind, the definition of "product" may differ. A product may be in the development stage and hence not fully functional and not yet available to the public (note: availability to the public has nothing to do with reduction to practice).

    Quote Originally Posted by TechniKal
    If Turner Bikes or any other maker had used a design the same as ICT on a bike prior to the ICT patent being filed, the patent could be invalidated.
    Not necessarily. As mentioned above, that only holds true, if and only if, Turner can prove he invented ICT first or caused the design to be in the public domain (in public use) 1 year prior to filing of the ICT patent application.
    Last edited by SCUBAPRO; 12-08-2005 at 03:24 PM.
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    Relax.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    Insteed of threatening lawsuits and patenting that stupid ICT deal. I would rather get a root canal or an enema than buy an Ellsworth. I had an Isis that had disc tabs that were not straight. Nice quality control, Tony!

    Jaybo
    The isis had crooked disc tabs, but did the frame break? All politics aside, Ells has improved his lineup across the board. The older Truths and Jokers were breaking, and Ells improved the frames. The frequency of broken frames has gone way down and is virtually nil. I have not heard of any broken Moments either.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechniKal
    I don't see how that's any different than what I said. Wouldn't using the suspension design in a product specifically associated with what the patent was granted for qualify as 'reducing it to practice'?

    If Turner Bikes or any other maker had used a design the same as ICT on a bike prior to the ICT patent being filed, the patent could be invalidated.
    I don't know much about patent law, but I do know what the ICT patent says. It specifically mentions one of Turner's bikes, the AB (Afterburner), as falling within the parameters of the ICT claims. That is, there is one gear ratio where the chain line stays within a prescribed distance from the IC throughout the travel range of the suspension.

    The patent contends that this does not constitute "prior art" because it was accidental. The chain line just happens to track the instant center and was not deliberately designed to do so.
    Last edited by Steve from JH; 12-09-2005 at 10:00 AM.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    I don't know much about patent law, but I do know what the ICT patent says. It specifically mentions one of Turner's bikes, the AB (Afterburner), as falling within the parameters of the ICT claims. That is, there is one gear ratio where the chain line stays within a prescribed distance from the IC throughout the travel range of the suspension.

    The patent contends that this does not constitute "prior art" because it was accidental. The chain line just happens to track the instant center and was not deliberately designed to do so.
    How does Tony Ellsworth know what Dave Turner was trying to design?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    How does Tony Ellsworth know what Dave Turner was trying to design?
    The AB must have been already on the market at that time.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  30. #30
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    What's that smell? Oh, it's the dead horse this thread is beating.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    How does Tony Ellsworth know what Dave Turner was trying to design?
    Actually what the patent says is the following:

    Although FIGS. 22A and 22B indicate that the Turner A.B. bicycle yields a similar maximum value of 1.46 (for the difference between the instant center and the chain torque), as of this date, it is unclear whether that Turner A.B. bicycle actually constitutes prior art with respect to Applicants' invention. In any case, the Turner A.B. bicycle does not teach or disclose how to achieve a maximum value lower than 1.46.
    This is from the Oct. 29, 2002 patent, #6,471,230. It's a strange statement, unless you believe in talking bicycles.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    . In any case, the Turner A.B. bicycle does not teach or disclose how to achieve a maximum value lower than 1.46.[/INDENT]
    This is from the Oct. 29, 2002 patent, #6,471,230. It's a strange statement, unless you believe in talking bicycles.
    Are you saying you are not aware that Turner bicycles talk! Get with the program...Turner bikes talk They just won't talk to TE or his attorneys.

    All joking aside, that's a weak statement, of course a bike will not teach or disclose anything. They need to reffer to schematics or some published document disclosing such information. But they probably could not find one, hence the statement.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  33. #33
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    tough $hit dude...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    Don't you get it? When companies like Ellsworth and Specialized get into this petty crap it erodes mountain biking for us all! I agree, I think Turners are clearly not as good post this fiasco as before it. The HL is the most supple suspension design on the market; however, when my Spot ends its useful like I will not be buying either an Ellsworth or a Specialized. Stikin' Tony and his band of merry morons are hurting us all.

    Jaybo
    i guess you dont like the foundation of capitalism...

    go get yourself a wall mart bike... you sound like you will fit one like a glove...

    by the way, Turner proved that ICT is the best suspension design...

  34. #34
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    yeah... Turner has switched...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kona0197
    When did that happen? What did they switch to?

    to the same suspension design that Kona has been using forever...

    read the news son...

  35. #35
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    I think ICT is a concept invented by TE to get an advantage over the competition which had a similar design, but superior product.

    As for bearing vs. bushing debate. If you want to use the "DT is the only one using bushings" as a reason for it not being as good as bearings. You can look at it both ways, because DT is the only one, he's either very smart or very stupid.

    And for you Turner folks upset over the HL change. I wouldn't be looking over here for an alternative. Ellsworth's products and CS speak for themselves. Titus is your alternative.

  36. #36
    Daniel the Dog
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    I've ridden and owned an Ellsworth

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    i guess you dont like the foundation of capitalism...

    go get yourself a wall mart bike... you sound like you will fit one like a glove...

    by the way, Turner proved that ICT is the best suspension design...
    They ride well but not nearly as well at my Spot. The ID I rode had a clumsy feel to it due to the weird geometry. The Isis I owned was squeeky and had a cheap feel to it with a crooked disc tab. ICT is a figment of Ellsworth's mind and is completely stupid.

    By the way, post pics of your bike after you break it.

    Jaybo
    Last edited by Jaybo; 12-14-2005 at 12:02 AM.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    They ride well but not nearly as well at my Spot. The ID I rode had a clumsy feel to it due to the weird geometry. The Isis I owned was squeeky and had a cheap feel to it with a crooked disc tab. ICT is a figment of Ellsworth's mind and is completely stupid.

    By the way, post pics of your bike after you break it.

    Jaybo

    Have your seriously tested the Moment, Epiphany, Joker, Truth, or Dare? You make the comment that they ride well, but nearly as well as your spot. Holy sweeping statement batman! Does this mean all Ellsworth bikes? I seriously doubt you have had saddle time on all of them, so don't infer that the Spot rides better if you haven't.

    It is great that you love your Turner, but what you have offered here is just an opinion and thats all it is. Many feel the same way about thier Ells. It is all about preference.

    Now go bolt a TNT to your spot and tell everyone how DT has re-invented the wheel.

  38. #38
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    riiiiight....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    They ride well but not nearly as well at my Spot. The ID I rode had a clumsy feel to it due to the weird geometry. The Isis I owned was squeeky and had a cheap feel to it with a crooked disc tab. ICT is a figment of Ellsworth's mind and is completely stupid.

    By the way, post pics of your bike after you break it.

    Jaybo
    well, i am sure you are very excited about the new TNT concept that Turner has developed... turner says it works as good as ICT... so your statement that "ICT is a figment of Ellsworth's mind and is completely stupid" goes against the technology that you have on yoru current bike and shows how ignorant you are.

    go away freak... you have no credibility... we welcome good Turner people here, and we have quite a few of them - they are good people...

  39. #39
    kev
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    one word....

    VENTANA

    I never cease to be amazed at the rancor expressed every which way possible on this forum, especially when there is a solution to it all so readily at hand.

    just my .02...

  40. #40
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    hehe, right on...

    Quote Originally Posted by ronny
    Have your seriously tested the Moment, Epiphany, Joker, Truth, or Dare? You make the comment that they ride well, but nearly as well as your spot. Holy sweeping statement batman! Does this mean all Ellsworth bikes? I seriously doubt you have had saddle time on all of them, so don't infer that the Spot rides better if you haven't.

    It is great that you love your Turner, but what you have offered here is just an opinion and thats all it is. Many feel the same way about thier Ells. It is all about preference.

    Now go bolt a TNT to your spot and tell everyone how DT has re-invented the wheel.
    i dont really understand some people... they apparently love their bikes, enjoy them, ride them to death etc, but they find pleasure in coming to other brands forums and bash whatever brand that is, in this case Ellsworth...

    If you dont like Ellsworth for whatever reason, that is absolutely fine with me and anyone else on this forum. Go and get what you like and enjoy it. Dont bring your baseless crap of jaybo type here. If there is some substance to it, by all means... But to say: I rode Ellsworth and now i ride Turner and Turner rides better than Ellsworth is utterly ignorant and stupid...

    i dont really know why we even pay attention to this crap. i guess because we dont have much entertainment on this forum lately. and when i say entertainment, i mean some serious, popcorn and watch type of stuff... not that i miss it...

    anyway, on a side note, i finally caved in and purchased mavic crossmax sl wheels... i thought that i'd be too heavy for them at 205#, but until i break them to prove myself right, i'll be dreaming about them forever... so here they are... i'll try them in some snow, but the real test will wait until the spring....

    have a great holiday everyone...

  41. #41
    sock puppet
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    solution for what, kev?

    Quote Originally Posted by kev
    VENTANA

    I never cease to be amazed at the rancor expressed every which way possible on this forum, especially when there is a solution to it all so readily at hand.

    just my .02...
    do tell please.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    If you are ticked that is fine. You might vent your anger on some faceless dude on the web than your kid of boss.

    I'm not at all protective of Turner. I like their bikes but I would jump ship in a heart beat if someone could manage to make a bike clearly better than a Spot. I know Ellsworth has not...

    Jaybo
    Your posts on the Turner board are light and positive but here so venomous. I like reading about people enjoying their Ellsworths (and making death-defying drops ) as much as I do people enjoying their Turners. You seemed to want people to enjoy their riding but your posts here detract from that. Do you not want people to enjoy riding Ellsworth bikes?

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev
    VENTANA

    I never cease to be amazed at the rancor expressed every which way possible on this forum, especially when there is a solution to it all so readily at hand.

    just my .02...
    Sherwood makes beautiful bikes and I look forward to the day when I can log some serious ride time on one. This does not mean Ventana is the answer for everyone though. Maybe you are referring to the fact, what Sherwood perfected or greatly improved a long time ago, is what everyone in Turnerville is raving about right now. If this is the case, then I understand.

    I have heard all about TEs past, the breaking frames, and everything inbetween and I still do not understand why people insist on spewing b.s. about Ellsworth on this forum.

    It is not like the current owners are going to change their minds about riding an Ells everytime a hater spouts off here. There are a couple of brands that I do not care for either, but I try hard not to start flame fests regarding the product. It is pointless.
    Last edited by ronny; 12-14-2005 at 10:18 PM. Reason: bad grammar, bad spelling.

  44. #44
    travel by stoat!!!
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    Post here if your Ellsworth didn't break

    Mine didn't break. O5 Moment Medium
    TEAM POTH (Push On The Hills)

  45. #45
    Time is not a road.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatingchandeliers
    Mine didn't break. O5 Moment Medium
    While I hate to add to the stupidity of this threat anymore, I'll note that I rode an Isis for three years, no problems. I'm not on to an '05 Moment.

  46. #46
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    01 Truth

    Quote Originally Posted by eatingchandeliers
    Mine didn't break. O5 Moment Medium

    Still going strong. I've never had an issue with it. But I had to strip her for parts last week to build up my new bike, a SC Nomad. I still have some old parts before my upgrade this summer so they'll go back on the Truth.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatingchandeliers
    Mine didn't break. O5 Moment Medium
    2000 Truth. Never had a problem with it. Will keep it forever, its a classic.

  48. #48
    Ride Instigator
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronny
    The isis had crooked disc tabs, but did the frame break? All politics aside, Ells has improved his lineup across the board. The older Truths and Jokers were breaking, and Ells improved the frames. The frequency of broken frames has gone way down and is virtually nil. I have not heard of any broken Moments either.
    Oh yeah, Isiss (Isi? ) break too. I broke the swingarm twice and the front tri once in 3 years time, Ellsworth warranteed me on all three occurances I'm happy to say. I have since sold the fragile Isis frame for a song and upgraded to a Heckler...I just couldnt trust that Isis frame anymore .

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by SprocketHead
    Still going strong. I've never had an issue with it. But I had to strip her for parts last week to build up my new bike, a SC Nomad. I still have some old parts before my upgrade this summer so they'll go back on the Truth.
    That's right, and this boy hucked his '01 Truth too!

    My '99 Truth refused to break so I finally had to trade it in for a Moment

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by SprocketHead
    Still going strong. I've never had an issue with it.
    I road my 01 truth for 4 years with not one issue. But I never hucked it. An occasional 2-3 ft drop, fast down vacation rides at Winterpark each summer, but mostly all over xc riding. Traded it back for an 05 this last March (lots of little fall down dents [not in those critical stress areas] + I wanted the newer rocker design, move from a 16" to 18", and the fox shock). It feels like this 05 is a bit heavier built than my old 01 but that might just be the frame size. Defintely different seat tube and seat stays from the 01. Little less seat stay tire clearance. My goodness, the rear end is better than my 01. Probably the Fox...

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown

    I do, I will admit, take issue with Specialized purchasing a patent for an idea that was not theirs and then refusing to sell it to brands they view as serious competition. It wasn't their own idea in the first place...
    IIRC, Leitner came up with the "Horst" link while working on a design for Specialized.

  52. #52
    Brass Nipples!
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingbozo
    IIRC, Leitner came up with the "Horst" link while working on a design for Specialized.
    I thought it was AMP research, and Dave Turner was one of Leitner's test riders.
    {Principal Skinner} Hmm. Whoever did this is in very deep trouble.
    {Martin} And a sloppy speller too. The preferred spelling of 'wiener' is w - i - e - n - e - r, although 'e - i' is an acceptable ethnic variant.

  53. #53
    Time is not a road.
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    I thought it was Colonel Mustard in the Library with a candlestick.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by chad1433
    I thought it was Colonel Mustard in the Library with a candlestick.
    Why don't you let this post die?

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