The Ellsworth Warranty--the rest of the story.- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    The Ellsworth Warranty--the rest of the story.

    The long and short about the Ellsworth Warranty

    The Short—
    THE WARRANTY.
    Resolving accusations our warranty not being honored is about making the facts available to everyone. The warranty, is available on our website: (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2...20WarrCard.pdf) Anyone interested in the facts can read it for themselves, instead of reading only hearsay and rumors. The execution of the warranty has been directly in line with what is written.

    THE ADVERTISING.
    As to the allegations of false advertising claims that the warranty is something other then has been practiced, etc.? I’ve added an “ad archive” of every ad we’ve placed in North American media, since ‘99/’00 (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/ellsworthianway/index.cfm) You can check it out for your self rather then take everything you read in a MTBR discussion board for fact without checking it out on your own.

    The Long—the rest of the story:
    CUSTOMER SERVICE.

    First, I appreciate customers taking time to relate their positive experiences in the discussion board. Sony did a study in the 80’s every customer service manager knows like scripture. It goes something like this:

    For every satisfied customer, 1 out of 10 will tell of their satisfaction 1 time. On the other hand, 10 out of 10 dissatisfied customers will tell no less then 10 people of their dissatisfaction…10 times!

    As for allegations or accusations of bad customer service. I have three things to say:

    First, no one is perfect, though we’re constantly striving at Ellsworth, no one there has given up taking care of our customers and dealers.

    Second, If there are 10 dissatisfied customers on MTBR (count the negative posts usernames, it’s not that diverse) they are telling 10 times the same dissatisfaction. Your hearing it 10 times amplified. On the other hand, the 10 satisfied Ellsworth owners represent hundreds of satisfied customers.

    Third, You need to know that there’s more to the story that you’re not going to hear from the dissatisfied guy claiming he was treated poorly. Here’s a couple special ones—ask yourself which parts of the story you actually read about on the discussion boards:

    Example #1. What you read in posts: Kid with Joker, warranted seven times. What you don’t hear: Come to find out his friends were taking turns dropping it off the garage roof to the driveway busting it—why not their own bikes? Because “Ellsworth has a lifetime warranty” was the answer. “Our bikes don’t.”

    Example #2. What you don’t hear: Guy drops bike on rock while lifting it over fence when it’s pretty new. Dents downtube—sends us a picture, we say, we’d watch it, but wouldn’t recommend buying a replacement right away, though it undoubtedly is a stress riser, he may ride it for years without any problems, and he could always buy a replacement at some time in the future if it became necessary. He actually posts on MTBR that he rides the heck out of it, and even despite the big dent he put in it, it’s holding up great for multiple seasons. Original dent eventually does generates stress cracks. He wants it warranted for free. He’s mad because he has to pay for replacement parts—What you read on discussion board is a rant on MTBR—flaming company for weak bikes and bad customer service.

    Example #3. Guy buys bike used, sight unseen, (MTBR, Ebay…buyer beware) bike breaks. He’s second owner—no applicable warranty. Shock that it came with isn’t a Truth part number, too short, worn out. He is offered to buy replacement parts and shock at a deep discount. He’s mad because he didn’t get shock (wear component) and frame (not original owner) for free. Flames us for not honoring warranty on a used bike and a wear component.

    Example #4. Here’s a super reasonable case I just handled myself as it isn’t very common and I didn’t want any misunderstandings about what was to be done: Three year old front triangle failure. Not current version or technology of the Truth—no like parts in stock to warranty with. Despite the fact that our destructive testing and accumulated research shows a better then 90% correlation with under inflated shock, or hydraulic lock due to lockout left on, or worn out air shock, heavier riders and large frames. User set up is considered the owner/operator responsibility—as stated in warranty and owners manual and FAQ on website. In spite of this, we are willing to warranty the front triangle with a brand new one to the original owner no charge, once with an explanation letter about shock set up and use. However, shock lengths and rockers have changed (longer shock for lower shock shaft velocity and lower leverage ratio rockers to ease the demand on the shocks—specifically benefits heavier riders ride quality and increases durability). Owner is offered to replace his three year old and likely worn out shock for dealer cost, and purchase the new rocker assembly for a deep discount off what it would be at retail (necessary to accommodate the newer shock, if something like this had happened within the first year, we’d have provided the rocker at no charge). Cost to upgrade entire frame after three years of regular use to a brand new 2004 Truth…approximately $500. Or you could look at it as a $1,500 credit toward a brand new frame (“current technology” warrantee language).

    Let’s take this last example and look at it, because here in lies a few of the frustrations with the current warranty that I am aware of. I am aware of three of these situations where I was unable to come to a meeting of the mind with the owner. Never the less, I did what was disclosed clearly in the warranty. I don’t know how to remedy the hard feelings, as what was done above is exactly what the warranty states would be done.

    This is where that whole bad rap about customer service and not honoring warranty on MTBR came from in the first place I think. This doesn't happen like this very often. But when it does, most of the time, folks are ecstatic about $500 for a brand new frame. Occasionally, someone is indignant about the $500--didn't read the warranty, or maybe doesn't understand products must evolve and change to become better over the years, like software, cars, ovens, motorcycles, shoes, and yes...bikes. And they continue to rant and complain on MTBR so that you'd think the whole world has broken Ellsworth's...and Ellsworth blows them off when it happens. These rants are half-truth’s of a vocal few. As to the idea that I change products to avoid warranty that’s ridiculous.

    You can categorize the number of times product evolutions have happened and recognize these MTBR rants if you know what incompatibilities have happened in the last decade. The allegation that I change products so I don’t have to warranty, or can make money by selling current parts at a deep discount them is untrue. Only a very small percentage of the bikes we ship world wide ever have problems, why would I spend the 18 months of R&D and the cost of retooling JUST to skirt coughing up a few free frames to warranty in the course of the year? The concept propagated by several discussion board mavens is preposterously confused and lacks any mathematical, numeric, or financial reason whatsoever.

    Here is an actual list of the product changes that involve some degree of incompatibility, only one is complete incompatibility, and we offered upgrade programs to help. Check it out.

    1996 Truth’s changed from 80mm of travel to 100mm of travel. Front triangle and shock changed so that if you had a front triangle warranty on a bike before 1997, you had to buy a new shock at dealer cost to make the frame go again. For new shock at dealer cost, you got more travel, Easton tubes, lighter stiffer stronger frame, and brand new shock.

    2000 Truth’s changed completely for the first time in almost 8 years. We maintained warranty replacements until about 2002—then parts just ran out. At that time we offered a half price upgrade to the new Instant Center Tracking, cartridge-bearing Truth to any Ellsworth owner to keep them on current and warrantee-able parts. We took a lot of heat from dealers on that, who expressed their concerns that these folks upgrading should’ve been back to the dealer to buy the new bikes, as the old one’s were likely worn out and should be replaced at the dealer. We continued to offer the half price upgrade well through
    2002. And dropped it to about a 35% discount the next year. By then the bikes being upgraded were well over three years old and not current technology, though there are still many of these old Truth’s out there that are loved and work great, and I still maintain inventory of service parts (bushing pivot kits available on website).

    2004 Truth’s started shipping in mid 2003 utilizing the longer shocks and lower leverage ratio rockers. (better ride quality, especially for heavier riders, increased durability due to lower leverage ratio).

    2002 Id’s got a new disk specific seat stay. 2001 (first year) had canti stays. Both worked great, but the disk specific stay was in high demand. We offered the opportunity for owners to upgrade at about 40% discount. Again took heat from dealers, AND took heat from owners who asserted that it was better then the old stay (which worked fine) and therefore the old stay was defective and we should give them the new stay for free—that the upgrade charge was greedy! Most people were glad to have the opportunity to upgrade the bike to disks and more tire clearance for a couple of hundred bucks. This had no affect on how Id’s were or are warranted. What you read on MTBR is the old stay was defective (not true) and we were charging to replace defective stay. The fact was the upgrade was optional—not mandatory, and the canti-boss stay worked as designed and intended on the original bike. Upgrade offer was optional.

    2003 Joker gets major upgrade after four years of production. Longer Travel, stiffer, stronger, etc.. Original owner gets upgraded on any part that fails, but would have to potentially buy a shock for it to get the full benefit of the new design.

    That’s it. I think in each case the upgrade path is more then valuable for the associated cost, IF ANY that might be applicable. The above is the ENTIRE story of how warranty is handled if parts have evolved. No more complicated then that. Again, if you read something that deviates much from the above—ask yourself what part of the story your not reading on the discussion board.

    In the last four years, we have made more alterations, or improvements to the Truth then we did in the first 6 years of production. Mostly because we sell more, and the companies resources for R&D have made it possible to break new ground with the suspension technology, which is why when you get your new '04 Ellsworth, your just going to LAUGH at the mass media frenzy stuff…concerning the “newest” suspension system. And ask yourself “what’s the possibility the “latest, greatest, newest” design will still be here in it’s current form in 5-10 years like the Instant Center Tracking four bar link has been.”

    Is there a problem understanding the warranty? I’m not sure. I’ll ramble on a bit more about it, and please take a look at the warranty on our websites FAQ section, or at the direct links above and below and email me what you think at [email protected] .

    I do think the current warranty is more complex to administrate then other warrantees, I think this stems mostly from my desire to stand behind the craftsmanship of the frame for the lifetime of the frame. Unfortunately, this gets complicated—I admit. Here's why the current warranty is potentially complicated, and may well be flawed if it’s so commonly misunderstood:

    First, let's say a guy is using the frame pretty hard. Which is OK, but his use is going to fatigue the material faster then another's use that might be more on the XC end of things. “A Truth is NOT a free ride frame.” You can see by definition alone, prescribed, or designed use is very difficult to define--what is XC? What is Freeride?...etc. No human can define it the same twice and agree with another human. Thus, I've determined that in this respect, my "lifetime" warranty is flawed and probably impossible to administrate without pissing people off at some point.

    Second, it is impractical if not impossible to spend time and oh so little precious financial resources to manufacture and inventory parts for every Truth I've made in the last 10 years. If I never changed or improved on them, no one would want them. If I change or improve it, sometimes there is incompatibility. In MY mind (again, not everyone would agree, though many have) the opportunity to ride the heck out of a truth for three years and get a BRAND new one for a deep discount is a GREAT deal. Again, think of another industry... Drive the heck out of an off road truck, and get a new one for half price! What a deal! But again, not everyone agrees with me. However, many owners have taken advantage of this to keep fresh equipment--that causes troubles with Dealers who want to sell new stuff at full price when a person has worn out the old frame (lifetime doesn’t mean it can’t be worn out). And you can WEAR OUT a Truth...although almost everything on it can be maintained, if there are parts available. It is the lifetime of the frame...and though the warranty specifically states that if the replacement part isn't available (or that frames lifetime is over) a "credit towards current product will be issued", folks get mad that we did EXACTLY what the warranty says we would do...!? In this respect also, the perception of my warranty causes problems and misunderstandings.

    Change the warranty? Help us decide. The warranty is for you—I want to give the owners and prospective owners what they want.

    If the warranty changed to a strait two years, then if we exceed expectations, folks will be happy. As it is now, due primarily to the two issues above, we risk falling short of someone's expectations on what is a generous and liberal warranty in this industry (read the collection of industry warranties in FAQ section of www.ellsworthbikes.com see links). Pretty much ALL or ANY manufacturing defect, or material defect shows up within the first year. After that, it's probably fatigue, or misuse, or something. And for the few rare times it's clearly a defect of some kind--even if it's outside 2 years--won't the guy be happy that we stepped up and honored it anyway out of warranty?!

    I know in my heart, and have verified with destructive testing and by FEAing others designs up and applying the same dynamic loading to my designs and theirs that Ellsworth bikes are more durable for the prescribed use then any in the industry by as much as double. AND they are all lighter then the same prescribed use bikes of other brands...that’s something we’re proud of and it is proof of some sweet and expensive engineering, design and materials. But nothing lasts forever, and while I'm perfectly willing to do a lifetime of the product warranty—will owners read warranty so they don’t just end up pissed off when the situation arrives that they've gotta buy replacement parts to keep it good? Please help us decide: [email protected]

    Just like my wonderful Dodge Diesel Truck. 90,000 miles of wonderful service, and I need new shocks for the second time, new springs, a bed liner...a door seal, a dome light switch--stuff needs maintenance. It's a scientific fact called atrophy, right? Bike frames are not exempt from this. Any way, when a man thinks about it like this, it's all good. But too often, as this discussion board seems to attest to folks have had false expectations concerning the warranty. And it does makes me sad, because I care, and my staff cares, and we do our level best to take care of our customers.

    Currently, the discussion boards are not an efficient way to collect honest and insightful opinions. It would be great if they could be, but that’s not what I’m seeing in the discussion boards at this time. So you’ll need to collect your thoughts and email them to [email protected].

    *Download the ads—see there’s no misrepresentation (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/ellsworthianway/index.cfm);
    *Download the current warranty, let me know if any of it is unclear or if you think the way we’re handing or have handled warrantees is not inline with what we said we’d do (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2...20WarrCard.pdf);
    *Check out this collection of sample industry warrantees http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/S...Warranties.pdf ) how do these compare to the Ellsworth Warranty?
    *Finally, take a look at my potentially “more easily interpreted warranty” (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2...20WarrCard.pdf). Is this a better, clearer warranty?

    Email me your thoughts: [email protected]

    I value your input, as Ellsworth owners, as potential owners, or even if your not interested in an Ellsworth just as a fellow cyclist. I’m listening to your input and opinions to make owning a bike with my name on it a splendid experience. Even if you’re ranting on the discussion boards, and profess to know me well enough to hate me, I invite you to harness that energy and email me insightful and honest opinions about the material I’ve made available for everyone’s review. Include your contact information; the most useful suggestions or comments may receive a token of my appreciation for participating in providing valuable focus on the potential improvements or upgrades to the Ellsworth Warranty.

    In the end, it's about making people happy, healthy, and able to enjoy the planet in an environmentally healthy way. I'm a firm believer that a man reaps what he sews, and when I'm done on this planet, I will be pleased in the knowledge that I've sewn seeds of making many people healthy and happy, and not obliterated the planet in the process.

    I really appreciate your expressing your views, and your willingness to consider what I've put in print here. I remain available to any suggestions you might have to make the experience better. Thanks in advance for your time and consideration in this matter.

    Sincerely,
    Tony Ellsworth

  2. #2
    rr
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    Tony- I'm a happy Truth owner who has dealt with a warranty issue and my experience was positive. I will email you at the warranty address but I would like to say a few things in this forum. Bike frames can break no matter how strong they are or how well they are engineered, but it's how the customer is treated when the frame breaks that makes the difference. There have obviously been some people not treated so well and thats the biggest issue here, there are a lot of people that don't trust you or your company and its up to you to change it. I think you should change your warranty to an industry standard like some of the recommendations made on this forum AND beef up your frames a bit and ditch the whole lightest FS frame thing. The ICT design can stand on its own without it having to be the lightest, I use my Truth as a trailbike and it weighs 27lbs. I would think most Truth owners love their bike because it rides so well, not because its the lightest or it has a lifetime warranty. Of course, if you change the warranty, you still need to take care of existing owners who purchased the frame with the lifetime warranty. I wish you luck and I hope my Truth continues to give me years of trouble free riding

  3. #3
    TT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Ellsworth
    The long and short about the Ellsworth Warranty


    For every satisfied customer, 1 out of 10 will tell of their satisfaction 1 time. On the other hand, 10 out of 10 dissatisfied customers will tell no less then 10 people of their dissatisfaction…10 times!

    Second, If there are 10 dissatisfied customers on MTBR (count the negative posts usernames, it’s not that diverse) they are telling 10 times the same dissatisfaction. Your hearing it 10 times amplified. On the other hand, the 10 satisfied Ellsworth owners represent hundreds of satisfied customers.
    You're not kiddin I think a lot of us are fed up reading same bashing over and over from the same ppl. Readers must be very selective of what they read and believe, especially on MTBR (it's a great site, but there is simply WAAAAAAAAY to much BS floating around).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Ellsworth
    If the warranty changed to a strait two years, then if we exceed expectations, folks will be happy. As it is now, due primarily to the two issues above, we risk falling short of someone's expectations on what is a generous and liberal warranty in this industry (read the collection of industry warranties in FAQ section of www.ellsworthbikes.com see links). Pretty much ALL or ANY manufacturing defect, or material defect shows up within the first year. After that, it's probably fatigue, or misuse, or something. And for the few rare times it's clearly a defect of some kind--even if it's outside 2 years--won't the guy be happy that we stepped up and honored it anyway out of warranty?!

    I hope you're not seriously thinking about it

    Do not let some bad apples spoil the whole crop. I think for a lot us The Warranty was a very strong deciding point when we purchased our first frames.
    It would be unfortunate, for some f***ers who took upon themselves to bash your company to death, to rouin it for everyone else. It's one of the things that sets your frames away and ahead of the pack. It would be like slowing down, letting the rest catch up



    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Ellsworth
    Currently, the discussion boards are not an efficient way to collect honest and insightful opinions. It would be great if they could be, but that’s not what I’m seeing in the discussion boards at this time. So you’ll need to collect your thoughts and email them to [email protected].

    Amen to that too
    Last edited by TT.; 02-14-2004 at 11:07 AM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by TT.
    I think for a lot us The Warranty was a very strong deciding point when we purchased our first frames.
    Tony himself noted that independent studies have shown that the majority of manufacturer defects will show in the first year of use. Providing 2 year warranty will safeguard that almost every manufacturer defect will show before the warranty period expires. After that, it's just leniency of the manufacturer against mis-use. A lifetime warranty may even provoke mis-use!

    I think Tony should change his warranty. But in case there are incompatibility issues, Ellsworth should replace the complete frame, not just the broken part. If you look at Specialized or other big players in the bicycle inductry, a broken frame that is no longer in production and of which there are no frames in stock, will be replaced with a similar frame or frame with equivalent value. If Tony is not prepared to do this, I think he should leave the warranty as is. From his sample warranty card, it does not seem like he is willing to do this:
    "Exclusions: All wear items to include.......or items that do not transfer to new technology replacement frames"
    This seems to me a way for Tony to not have to replace incompatible parts, which I think all the fuss is about in the first place.

    Benefits:
    - It will be easier for Ellsworth to fullfill warranty cases because they only need to stock frames and parts for 2 years.
    - It will be easier for the customer to get a complete replacement (if necesary) frame without a catch due to incompatibility issues.
    - More dealers might be willing to restart supplying Ellsworth bikes, as I read that a lot of them stopped because they thought the customer was being cheated on, or they felt that the frame was just worn-out and they could have sold a new frame iso Ellsworth supplying the customer with a discount on a warranty replacement. Dealers don't like warranty because it ruins their business.

  5. #5
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    i'd rather have lifetime limited warranty as it is now...

    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    Tony- I'm a happy Truth owner who has dealt with a warranty issue and my experience was positive. I will email you at the warranty address but I would like to say a few things in this forum. Bike frames can break no matter how strong they are or how well they are engineered, but it's how the customer is treated when the frame breaks that makes the difference. There have obviously been some people not treated so well and thats the biggest issue here, there are a lot of people that don't trust you or your company and its up to you to change it. I think you should change your warranty to an industry standard like some of the recommendations made on this forum AND beef up your frames a bit and ditch the whole lightest FS frame thing. The ICT design can stand on its own without it having to be the lightest, I use my Truth as a trailbike and it weighs 27lbs. I would think most Truth owners love their bike because it rides so well, not because its the lightest or it has a lifetime warranty. Of course, if you change the warranty, you still need to take care of existing owners who purchased the frame with the lifetime warranty. I wish you luck and I hope my Truth continues to give me years of trouble free riding
    and pay $500 to upgrade to current technology 3 years after i purchased my frame, if it breaks or something... thank you very much Tony.

    those who wouldnt accept that are fools. what are they thinking...

  6. #6
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    and pay $500 to upgrade to current technology 3 years after i purchased my frame, if it breaks or something... thank you very much Tony.

    those who wouldnt accept that are fools. what are they thinking...
    Yeah, but you are assuming that he is going to live up to that...lol...i know people that have paid around 500 bucks just for new chainstays and rocker arms...you are fooling yourself if you think he's going to let a new truth go for $500 bucks...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Yeah, but you are assuming that he is going to live up to that...lol...i know people that have paid around 500 bucks just for new chainstays and rocker arms...you are fooling yourself if you think he's going to let a new truth go for $500 bucks...
    i am not saying it is going to be a new truth. but whatever it is, if it includes shock for example and a triangle or anytning along these lines, i'd be happy...

    c'mon, you dont expect that anyone could unconditionally warrant the frame for the lifetime??? the warranty didnt sound like that to me anyway...

    but quite frankly, i dont care about the warranty. the truth is one sweet ride and with my scarce spare time, i want to enjoy every single minute of it... if truth brakes, i'll buy something else to entertain me until truth is fixed... maybe even another truth if i am happy with this one.

    i know i bought one of the lightest FS frames on the planet. that brings some risk by itself and i accepted that risk. i could have bought some 35 pounds rig and could have been sure i'd never break it... but it is not fun... fun is worth the money for me . anytime...

  8. #8
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    wrong, i am rich consumer...

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Everything you said here points to you being a poor consumer that's a saleperson's dream. You'd settle for anything because Tony Ellsworth is your God.

    Next, you say "one of the lightest fs frames". Tony says "THE LIGHTEST". So which one is it? he says it is the lightest, so who's lying? Like I said, the Nicolai Saturn is lighter.

    I'm waiting for you to threaten to beat me up on this board like you did on the other board.
    and i dont have to ask my daddy to give me money for my bikes...

    i dont care if it is one of the lightest or the lightest... nicolai who? who cares...

    truth is fun and that is all i need. if it stops being fun, i'll buy something else... we'll see...

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    i dont own an ellsworth ive never personally had much of a liking even for the look of them
    i do know that after reading mr ellsworths post he seems to be fair and amicable id be happy with his warranty

    i worked for a us manufacturer from 96 onwards and we had plenty back

    when i started biking i broke a frame yeah sure it wasnt designed for seious biking but i never told the lbs that id been doing stuff the bike wasnt designed for i was gutted i could see the cost implication straight away and personally tried every trick in the book to get a new one now im pretty sure when this happens there are the doubters in warranty who could just see through the little white lies that accompany these tales of woe but never the less they coughed up a new frame

    6 years on i am qualified quite heavily in design engineering and it dawned on me that things break for a reason be it bad design (which is not uncommon these days) fatigue material choice the list is pretty long but usually its down several reasons which are predictable

    good engineering design which ellsworth bikes seem to be (in fact most manufacturers these days seem to be respectable in their claims) kind of limit these down to a number of factors which have usually been examined by the good old design folks and are acceptable ie they know how when and what is going to happen when a failure occurs

    kind of makes a bit of a mockery when you stand in your local bike shop and say i was just riding along and oh it broke here and here and well its pretty obvious thats not really what happend admittedly there are dodgy bikes you know the ones made at 5 minutes to four on friday just before clocking off but on a whole something doesnt just break
    so that leaves the warranty folks with a bit of a dilemma they know how it breaks and why
    so in reality they could just say you are telling little white lies instead they offer you a new frame for a reasonable amount of cash to keep your custom(a much wiser move)

    the other option is to engineer the product to such a high quality that the manufacturer will know a failure is impossible or to say this has a service life of x hours after that its over they do this with aeroplanes and yes parts still break but because of this most components for a plane costs more than some automobiles

    when a big company like specialized for example gets a frame made for anything from 60 to 200 dollars dollars in taiwan and it breaks they have pretty much covered their own back 5 times over with the built in retail price of the bike and can throw new frames at customers however from experience a hand crafted bike made in the usa costs way more than a mass manufactured frame even in waste materials alone so (on top of that ive seen plenty of folks posting on the fact their enduro broke but they dont seem to whine and complain and wriggle to get a new bike they just get a new frame) and are happy folks again

    the guys that like to complain are usually the ones who have been unjustly treated (in their opinion)ive been on both ends of the argument

    when it boils down to it at least there is a choice being offered in that you can pay a small sum of money for a replacement at the end of the day if the manufacturer was as pedantic as some of the posts in these forums they too could examine every aspect hairline crack circumstance of why the bit broke and im pretty sure could come up wwith 5 reasons why its not covered under warranty and after 6 months and a huge waste of money time and effort youd never buy another bike from manufacturer A and you wouldnt have done much riding that company would have lost another customer and the ever decreasing circle would continue from there

    so my vote is on the fact that at least we have a warranty to go to when things go wrong

    i stopped complaining years ago now i just ride and accept the inevitable

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Ellsworth
    The long and short about the Ellsworth Warranty

    The Short—
    THE WARRANTY.
    Resolving accusations our warranty not being honored is about making the facts available to everyone. The warranty, is available on our website: (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2...20WarrCard.pdf) Anyone interested in the facts can read it for themselves, instead of reading only hearsay and rumors. The execution of the warranty has been directly in line with what is written.

    THE ADVERTISING.
    As to the allegations of false advertising claims that the warranty is something other then has been practiced, etc.? I’ve added an “ad archive” of every ad we’ve placed in North American media, since ‘99/’00 (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/ellsworthianway/index.cfm) You can check it out for your self rather then take everything you read in a MTBR discussion board for fact without checking it out on your own.

    The Long—the rest of the story:
    CUSTOMER SERVICE.

    First, I appreciate customers taking time to relate their positive experiences in the discussion board. Sony did a study in the 80’s every customer service manager knows like scripture. It goes something like this:

    For every satisfied customer, 1 out of 10 will tell of their satisfaction 1 time. On the other hand, 10 out of 10 dissatisfied customers will tell no less then 10 people of their dissatisfaction…10 times!

    As for allegations or accusations of bad customer service. I have three things to say:

    First, no one is perfect, though we’re constantly striving at Ellsworth, no one there has given up taking care of our customers and dealers.

    Second, If there are 10 dissatisfied customers on MTBR (count the negative posts usernames, it’s not that diverse) they are telling 10 times the same dissatisfaction. Your hearing it 10 times amplified. On the other hand, the 10 satisfied Ellsworth owners represent hundreds of satisfied customers.

    Third, You need to know that there’s more to the story that you’re not going to hear from the dissatisfied guy claiming he was treated poorly. Here’s a couple special ones—ask yourself which parts of the story you actually read about on the discussion boards:

    Example #1. What you read in posts: Kid with Joker, warranted seven times. What you don’t hear: Come to find out his friends were taking turns dropping it off the garage roof to the driveway busting it—why not their own bikes? Because “Ellsworth has a lifetime warranty” was the answer. “Our bikes don’t.”

    Example #2. What you don’t hear: Guy drops bike on rock while lifting it over fence when it’s pretty new. Dents downtube—sends us a picture, we say, we’d watch it, but wouldn’t recommend buying a replacement right away, though it undoubtedly is a stress riser, he may ride it for years without any problems, and he could always buy a replacement at some time in the future if it became necessary. He actually posts on MTBR that he rides the heck out of it, and even despite the big dent he put in it, it’s holding up great for multiple seasons. Original dent eventually does generates stress cracks. He wants it warranted for free. He’s mad because he has to pay for replacement parts—What you read on discussion board is a rant on MTBR—flaming company for weak bikes and bad customer service.

    Example #3. Guy buys bike used, sight unseen, (MTBR, Ebay…buyer beware) bike breaks. He’s second owner—no applicable warranty. Shock that it came with isn’t a Truth part number, too short, worn out. He is offered to buy replacement parts and shock at a deep discount. He’s mad because he didn’t get shock (wear component) and frame (not original owner) for free. Flames us for not honoring warranty on a used bike and a wear component.

    Example #4. Here’s a super reasonable case I just handled myself as it isn’t very common and I didn’t want any misunderstandings about what was to be done: Three year old front triangle failure. Not current version or technology of the Truth—no like parts in stock to warranty with. Despite the fact that our destructive testing and accumulated research shows a better then 90% correlation with under inflated shock, or hydraulic lock due to lockout left on, or worn out air shock, heavier riders and large frames. User set up is considered the owner/operator responsibility—as stated in warranty and owners manual and FAQ on website. In spite of this, we are willing to warranty the front triangle with a brand new one to the original owner no charge, once with an explanation letter about shock set up and use. However, shock lengths and rockers have changed (longer shock for lower shock shaft velocity and lower leverage ratio rockers to ease the demand on the shocks—specifically benefits heavier riders ride quality and increases durability). Owner is offered to replace his three year old and likely worn out shock for dealer cost, and purchase the new rocker assembly for a deep discount off what it would be at retail (necessary to accommodate the newer shock, if something like this had happened within the first year, we’d have provided the rocker at no charge). Cost to upgrade entire frame after three years of regular use to a brand new 2004 Truth…approximately $500. Or you could look at it as a $1,500 credit toward a brand new frame (“current technology” warrantee language).

    Let’s take this last example and look at it, because here in lies a few of the frustrations with the current warranty that I am aware of. I am aware of three of these situations where I was unable to come to a meeting of the mind with the owner. Never the less, I did what was disclosed clearly in the warranty. I don’t know how to remedy the hard feelings, as what was done above is exactly what the warranty states would be done.

    This is where that whole bad rap about customer service and not honoring warranty on MTBR came from in the first place I think. This doesn't happen like this very often. But when it does, most of the time, folks are ecstatic about $500 for a brand new frame. Occasionally, someone is indignant about the $500--didn't read the warranty, or maybe doesn't understand products must evolve and change to become better over the years, like software, cars, ovens, motorcycles, shoes, and yes...bikes. And they continue to rant and complain on MTBR so that you'd think the whole world has broken Ellsworth's...and Ellsworth blows them off when it happens. These rants are half-truth’s of a vocal few. As to the idea that I change products to avoid warranty that’s ridiculous.

    You can categorize the number of times product evolutions have happened and recognize these MTBR rants if you know what incompatibilities have happened in the last decade. The allegation that I change products so I don’t have to warranty, or can make money by selling current parts at a deep discount them is untrue. Only a very small percentage of the bikes we ship world wide ever have problems, why would I spend the 18 months of R&D and the cost of retooling JUST to skirt coughing up a few free frames to warranty in the course of the year? The concept propagated by several discussion board mavens is preposterously confused and lacks any mathematical, numeric, or financial reason whatsoever.

    Here is an actual list of the product changes that involve some degree of incompatibility, only one is complete incompatibility, and we offered upgrade programs to help. Check it out.

    1996 Truth’s changed from 80mm of travel to 100mm of travel. Front triangle and shock changed so that if you had a front triangle warranty on a bike before 1997, you had to buy a new shock at dealer cost to make the frame go again. For new shock at dealer cost, you got more travel, Easton tubes, lighter stiffer stronger frame, and brand new shock.

    2000 Truth’s changed completely for the first time in almost 8 years. We maintained warranty replacements until about 2002—then parts just ran out. At that time we offered a half price upgrade to the new Instant Center Tracking, cartridge-bearing Truth to any Ellsworth owner to keep them on current and warrantee-able parts. We took a lot of heat from dealers on that, who expressed their concerns that these folks upgrading should’ve been back to the dealer to buy the new bikes, as the old one’s were likely worn out and should be replaced at the dealer. We continued to offer the half price upgrade well through
    2002. And dropped it to about a 35% discount the next year. By then the bikes being upgraded were well over three years old and not current technology, though there are still many of these old Truth’s out there that are loved and work great, and I still maintain inventory of service parts (bushing pivot kits available on website).

    2004 Truth’s started shipping in mid 2003 utilizing the longer shocks and lower leverage ratio rockers. (better ride quality, especially for heavier riders, increased durability due to lower leverage ratio).

    2002 Id’s got a new disk specific seat stay. 2001 (first year) had canti stays. Both worked great, but the disk specific stay was in high demand. We offered the opportunity for owners to upgrade at about 40% discount. Again took heat from dealers, AND took heat from owners who asserted that it was better then the old stay (which worked fine) and therefore the old stay was defective and we should give them the new stay for free—that the upgrade charge was greedy! Most people were glad to have the opportunity to upgrade the bike to disks and more tire clearance for a couple of hundred bucks. This had no affect on how Id’s were or are warranted. What you read on MTBR is the old stay was defective (not true) and we were charging to replace defective stay. The fact was the upgrade was optional—not mandatory, and the canti-boss stay worked as designed and intended on the original bike. Upgrade offer was optional.

    2003 Joker gets major upgrade after four years of production. Longer Travel, stiffer, stronger, etc.. Original owner gets upgraded on any part that fails, but would have to potentially buy a shock for it to get the full benefit of the new design.

    That’s it. I think in each case the upgrade path is more then valuable for the associated cost, IF ANY that might be applicable. The above is the ENTIRE story of how warranty is handled if parts have evolved. No more complicated then that. Again, if you read something that deviates much from the above—ask yourself what part of the story your not reading on the discussion board.

    In the last four years, we have made more alterations, or improvements to the Truth then we did in the first 6 years of production. Mostly because we sell more, and the companies resources for R&D have made it possible to break new ground with the suspension technology, which is why when you get your new '04 Ellsworth, your just going to LAUGH at the mass media frenzy stuff…concerning the “newest” suspension system. And ask yourself “what’s the possibility the “latest, greatest, newest” design will still be here in it’s current form in 5-10 years like the Instant Center Tracking four bar link has been.”

    Is there a problem understanding the warranty? I’m not sure. I’ll ramble on a bit more about it, and please take a look at the warranty on our websites FAQ section, or at the direct links above and below and email me what you think at [email protected] .

    I do think the current warranty is more complex to administrate then other warrantees, I think this stems mostly from my desire to stand behind the craftsmanship of the frame for the lifetime of the frame. Unfortunately, this gets complicated—I admit. Here's why the current warranty is potentially complicated, and may well be flawed if it’s so commonly misunderstood:

    First, let's say a guy is using the frame pretty hard. Which is OK, but his use is going to fatigue the material faster then another's use that might be more on the XC end of things. “A Truth is NOT a free ride frame.” You can see by definition alone, prescribed, or designed use is very difficult to define--what is XC? What is Freeride?...etc. No human can define it the same twice and agree with another human. Thus, I've determined that in this respect, my "lifetime" warranty is flawed and probably impossible to administrate without pissing people off at some point.

    Second, it is impractical if not impossible to spend time and oh so little precious financial resources to manufacture and inventory parts for every Truth I've made in the last 10 years. If I never changed or improved on them, no one would want them. If I change or improve it, sometimes there is incompatibility. In MY mind (again, not everyone would agree, though many have) the opportunity to ride the heck out of a truth for three years and get a BRAND new one for a deep discount is a GREAT deal. Again, think of another industry... Drive the heck out of an off road truck, and get a new one for half price! What a deal! But again, not everyone agrees with me. However, many owners have taken advantage of this to keep fresh equipment--that causes troubles with Dealers who want to sell new stuff at full price when a person has worn out the old frame (lifetime doesn’t mean it can’t be worn out). And you can WEAR OUT a Truth...although almost everything on it can be maintained, if there are parts available. It is the lifetime of the frame...and though the warranty specifically states that if the replacement part isn't available (or that frames lifetime is over) a "credit towards current product will be issued", folks get mad that we did EXACTLY what the warranty says we would do...!? In this respect also, the perception of my warranty causes problems and misunderstandings.

    Change the warranty? Help us decide. The warranty is for you—I want to give the owners and prospective owners what they want.

    If the warranty changed to a strait two years, then if we exceed expectations, folks will be happy. As it is now, due primarily to the two issues above, we risk falling short of someone's expectations on what is a generous and liberal warranty in this industry (read the collection of industry warranties in FAQ section of www.ellsworthbikes.com see links). Pretty much ALL or ANY manufacturing defect, or material defect shows up within the first year. After that, it's probably fatigue, or misuse, or something. And for the few rare times it's clearly a defect of some kind--even if it's outside 2 years--won't the guy be happy that we stepped up and honored it anyway out of warranty?!

    I know in my heart, and have verified with destructive testing and by FEAing others designs up and applying the same dynamic loading to my designs and theirs that Ellsworth bikes are more durable for the prescribed use then any in the industry by as much as double. AND they are all lighter then the same prescribed use bikes of other brands...that’s something we’re proud of and it is proof of some sweet and expensive engineering, design and materials. But nothing lasts forever, and while I'm perfectly willing to do a lifetime of the product warranty—will owners read warranty so they don’t just end up pissed off when the situation arrives that they've gotta buy replacement parts to keep it good? Please help us decide: [email protected]

    Just like my wonderful Dodge Diesel Truck. 90,000 miles of wonderful service, and I need new shocks for the second time, new springs, a bed liner...a door seal, a dome light switch--stuff needs maintenance. It's a scientific fact called atrophy, right? Bike frames are not exempt from this. Any way, when a man thinks about it like this, it's all good. But too often, as this discussion board seems to attest to folks have had false expectations concerning the warranty. And it does makes me sad, because I care, and my staff cares, and we do our level best to take care of our customers.

    Currently, the discussion boards are not an efficient way to collect honest and insightful opinions. It would be great if they could be, but that’s not what I’m seeing in the discussion boards at this time. So you’ll need to collect your thoughts and email them to [email protected].

    *Download the ads—see there’s no misrepresentation (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/ellsworthianway/index.cfm);
    *Download the current warranty, let me know if any of it is unclear or if you think the way we’re handing or have handled warrantees is not inline with what we said we’d do (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2...20WarrCard.pdf);
    *Check out this collection of sample industry warrantees http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/S...Warranties.pdf ) how do these compare to the Ellsworth Warranty?
    *Finally, take a look at my potentially “more easily interpreted warranty” (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2...20WarrCard.pdf). Is this a better, clearer warranty?

    Email me your thoughts: [email protected]

    I value your input, as Ellsworth owners, as potential owners, or even if your not interested in an Ellsworth just as a fellow cyclist. I’m listening to your input and opinions to make owning a bike with my name on it a splendid experience. Even if you’re ranting on the discussion boards, and profess to know me well enough to hate me, I invite you to harness that energy and email me insightful and honest opinions about the material I’ve made available for everyone’s review. Include your contact information; the most useful suggestions or comments may receive a token of my appreciation for participating in providing valuable focus on the potential improvements or upgrades to the Ellsworth Warranty.

    In the end, it's about making people happy, healthy, and able to enjoy the planet in an environmentally healthy way. I'm a firm believer that a man reaps what he sews, and when I'm done on this planet, I will be pleased in the knowledge that I've sewn seeds of making many people healthy and happy, and not obliterated the planet in the process.

    I really appreciate your expressing your views, and your willingness to consider what I've put in print here. I remain available to any suggestions you might have to make the experience better. Thanks in advance for your time and consideration in this matter.

    Sincerely,
    Tony Ellsworth
    Thanks Tony for the input! The part of the reply that concerns me refers to the changes made in the 2000(Truth) model. The problems I have read about occurred in 2001. This was after the major change in the frame. I realize that the older frames could not be warrantied because of the technological changes. The problems in the post 2000 frames are what made me decide against the Truth. The "fix" in mid 2003 is a direct result of these problems. This is where I have a problem. The longer shock and different rocker solved the seat tube breaks. Do you think it is fair to the customer who bought one of these frames, that if their frame breaks, they now have to buy a new shock and a rocker because of a "poor design"? You have stated that ride quality and durability improved with the 2003-2004 model change. This is a direct result of the problems. Giant had some issues in the same area. I'm not sure what they did to solve the problem and how they handled the warranty.

  11. #11
    rr
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quattro
    Thanks Tony for the input! The part of the reply that concerns me refers to the changes made in the 2000(Truth) model. The problems I have read about occurred in 2001. This was after the major change in the frame. I realize that the older frames could not be warrantied because of the technological changes. The problems in the post 2000 frames are what made me decide against the Truth. The "fix" in mid 2003 is a direct result of these problems. This is where I have a problem. The longer shock and different rocker solved the seat tube breaks. Do you think it is fair to the customer who bought one of these frames, that if their frame breaks, they now have to buy a new shock and a rocker because of a "poor design"? You have stated that ride quality and durability improved with the 2003-2004 model change. This is a direct result of the problems. Giant had some issues in the same area. I'm not sure what they did to solve the problem and how they handled the warranty.
    I believe the 2001 seat tube issues were solved the next year in 2002 when they changed the design from a one-piece BB/pivot area and larger box section to a tapered box section and seperate BB/pivot locations. Tony E. states the 2004 design change also helps with the stress, but I don't think it was designed as a fix, more of a suspension upgrade with the lower leverage ratio. I have not heard of any post 2001 front sections breaking, although I'm sure there have been some but not like the '01 model.

    The blue Truth is the '01 and the grey is the '03-note the differences in the seat tube and BB areas
    Attached Images Attached Images

  12. #12
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    yes son?

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    if your Truth is fun now, how should it stop being fun??? If it breaks?

    And my father was kind enough to help me buy my bike. I chipped in most of the money and he helped me with a few hundred dollars. No shame in that?
    agree, no shame. whats your point?


    Lets' tally this:

    You like to fight and intimidate people.
    not really. is that how you feel? why?


    You don't like people that have to work, as you pointed out on another thread (while you don't like the gift I got from my father of the difference in money here)
    not true. just your assumption. i have to work for living as well.


    You don't like people who's parents take care of them and give them gifts once in a while because they get good grades and work really hard.
    not true. where did you get that?


    You don't like people that talk about EW bikes breaking.
    not true. i appreciate all the info we can get about our bikes. i dont appreciate bashing that you are doing.


    You can't do math because 60% of $1,995 is $1,197 dollars and that's what you have to pay, not the $500 you think.
    not completely true, someone had to pay $500 for the upgrade including the shock. math is my strength. i am electrical engineef by profession.



    You don't acknowledge that someone who buys a Truth right off the showroom gets no warranty if the frame is redesigned slightly one month later.
    no i dont, because it is not true. have you really read the Ellsworth warranty?


    pathetic, osokolo. Take anger management classes.
    you think so? no prob. you are entitled to your opinion...

  13. #13
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    nope. i'll lay off when you lay off

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    you can't leave it alone, can you, Osokolo. You've proven yourself worng over and over. Just let it rest now.

    Yes, you do have anger issues and you did choose to attack me and you continue 2 hours after it was laid to rest on the general board.

    Simply leave it out of the board and return to the issues of bikes and the manufacturers. Someone posted a response to you on the general page, so why don't you go and address them.
    and lets leave the final verdict on who is right and who is wrong to the members of this forum. i think that is fair.

    i also responded to the gentlemen (i suppose) who questioned the warranty on the general board. but you knew the answer before i posted it. the warranty card says:

    Warranty: is limited to the repair / replacement of the frame with like technology, model and color without charge. In the event that the model
    is no longer in production, or parts available, the owner with be offered a pro-rated credit towards the latest technology available. This credit is towards product only and has no monetary value.
    if you dont like it, dont buy Ellsworth, but dont buy Ellsworth without reading the warranty and then complain about the warranty. AFAIC, the manufacturer is honouring what he laid out in his warranty.

    please prove me wrong.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    I believe the 2001 seat tube issues were solved the next year in 2002 when they changed the design from a one-piece BB/pivot area and larger box section to a tapered box section and seperate BB/pivot locations. Tony E. states the 2004 design change also helps with the stress, but I don't think it was designed as a fix, more of a suspension upgrade with the lower leverage ratio. I have not heard of any post 2001 front sections breaking, although I'm sure there have been some but not like the '01 model.

    The blue Truth is the '01 and the grey is the '03-note the differences in the seat tube and BB areas
    Thanks for pointing that out as Tony didn't. My point was that this was a problem and as you stated it was fixed in the 2002 model. Now if I had bought a frame in 2000 or 2001 as I almost did, and it broke this year,and Tony was out of the 2002 model frames I would be forced to spend money on a new shock,linkage,and an upgrade charge as "technology has changed".

    By the tone of his reply, he doesn't inspire me to go out and buy an Ellsworth. If he tweaks his design and that tweak causes problems and then he "fixes" the design, and then in a year or two tweaks his design again, which gets him out warranty issues, I'm a little concerned. To me, the only thing the warranty is good for is for manufacturing defects which show up in a year usually. Design problems caused by constant change of the design, indicate a problem. No thanks!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quattro
    Thanks for pointing that out as Tony didn't. My point was that this was a problem and as you stated it was fixed in the 2002 model. Now if I had bought a frame in 2000 or 2001 as I almost did, and it broke this year,and Tony was out of the 2002 model frames I would be forced to spend money on a new shock,linkage,and an upgrade charge as "technology has changed".

    By the tone of his reply, he doesn't inspire me to go out and buy an Ellsworth. If he tweaks his design and that tweak causes problems and then he "fixes" the design, and then in a year or two tweaks his design again, which gets him out warranty issues, I'm a little concerned. To me, the only thing the warranty is good for is for manufacturing defects which show up in a year usually. Design problems caused by constant change of the design, indicate a problem. No thanks!
    I hear ya!, actually I think the design changes are a good thing AS LONG as he would replace an older design at no charge if the frame breaks. Everyone else seems to be changing their designs also, but they are not forcing the owner to pay for the new technology if the older design breaks-thats bad business and he needs to change that.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Ellsworth
    Currently, the discussion boards are not an efficient way to collect honest and insightful opinions. It would be great if they could be, but that’s not what I’m seeing in the discussion boards at this time.

    Sincerely,
    Tony Ellsworth
    Oh yeah, that's just a peach Tony!

    The opinions collected here, by folks that have had dealings with your defective products, your company's poor customer service, and your very own lies, simply can't be "honest."

    Thanks for even more laughs Tony, even though they stem from your pathetic responses once again.

  17. #17
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    wow, thanks... really..

    now this makes sense to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by mikedesign
    i dont own an ellsworth ive never personally had much of a liking even for the look of them
    i do know that after reading mr ellsworths post he seems to be fair and amicable id be happy with his warranty

    i worked for a us manufacturer from 96 onwards and we had plenty back

    when i started biking i broke a frame yeah sure it wasnt designed for seious biking but i never told the lbs that id been doing stuff the bike wasnt designed for i was gutted i could see the cost implication straight away and personally tried every trick in the book to get a new one now im pretty sure when this happens there are the doubters in warranty who could just see through the little white lies that accompany these tales of woe but never the less they coughed up a new frame

    6 years on i am qualified quite heavily in design engineering and it dawned on me that things break for a reason be it bad design (which is not uncommon these days) fatigue material choice the list is pretty long but usually its down several reasons which are predictable

    good engineering design which ellsworth bikes seem to be (in fact most manufacturers these days seem to be respectable in their claims) kind of limit these down to a number of factors which have usually been examined by the good old design folks and are acceptable ie they know how when and what is going to happen when a failure occurs

    kind of makes a bit of a mockery when you stand in your local bike shop and say i was just riding along and oh it broke here and here and well its pretty obvious thats not really what happend admittedly there are dodgy bikes you know the ones made at 5 minutes to four on friday just before clocking off but on a whole something doesnt just break
    so that leaves the warranty folks with a bit of a dilemma they know how it breaks and why
    so in reality they could just say you are telling little white lies instead they offer you a new frame for a reasonable amount of cash to keep your custom(a much wiser move)

    the other option is to engineer the product to such a high quality that the manufacturer will know a failure is impossible or to say this has a service life of x hours after that its over they do this with aeroplanes and yes parts still break but because of this most components for a plane costs more than some automobiles

    when a big company like specialized for example gets a frame made for anything from 60 to 200 dollars dollars in taiwan and it breaks they have pretty much covered their own back 5 times over with the built in retail price of the bike and can throw new frames at customers however from experience a hand crafted bike made in the usa costs way more than a mass manufactured frame even in waste materials alone so (on top of that ive seen plenty of folks posting on the fact their enduro broke but they dont seem to whine and complain and wriggle to get a new bike they just get a new frame) and are happy folks again

    the guys that like to complain are usually the ones who have been unjustly treated (in their opinion)ive been on both ends of the argument

    when it boils down to it at least there is a choice being offered in that you can pay a small sum of money for a replacement at the end of the day if the manufacturer was as pedantic as some of the posts in these forums they too could examine every aspect hairline crack circumstance of why the bit broke and im pretty sure could come up wwith 5 reasons why its not covered under warranty and after 6 months and a huge waste of money time and effort youd never buy another bike from manufacturer A and you wouldnt have done much riding that company would have lost another customer and the ever decreasing circle would continue from there

    so my vote is on the fact that at least we have a warranty to go to when things go wrong

    i stopped complaining years ago now i just ride and accept the inevitable

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikedesign
    i dont own an ellsworth ive never personally had much of a liking even for the look of them
    i do know that after reading mr ellsworths post he seems to be fair and amicable id be happy with his warranty

    i worked for a us manufacturer from 96 onwards and we had plenty back

    when i started biking i broke a frame yeah sure it wasnt designed for seious biking but i never told the lbs that id been doing stuff the bike wasnt designed for i was gutted i could see the cost implication straight away and personally tried every trick in the book to get a new one now im pretty sure when this happens there are the doubters in warranty who could just see through the little white lies that accompany these tales of woe but never the less they coughed up a new frame

    6 years on i am qualified quite heavily in design engineering and it dawned on me that things break for a reason be it bad design (which is not uncommon these days) fatigue material choice the list is pretty long but usually its down several reasons which are predictable

    good engineering design which ellsworth bikes seem to be (in fact most manufacturers these days seem to be respectable in their claims) kind of limit these down to a number of factors which have usually been examined by the good old design folks and are acceptable ie they know how when and what is going to happen when a failure occurs

    kind of makes a bit of a mockery when you stand in your local bike shop and say i was just riding along and oh it broke here and here and well its pretty obvious thats not really what happend admittedly there are dodgy bikes you know the ones made at 5 minutes to four on friday just before clocking off but on a whole something doesnt just break
    so that leaves the warranty folks with a bit of a dilemma they know how it breaks and why
    so in reality they could just say you are telling little white lies instead they offer you a new frame for a reasonable amount of cash to keep your custom(a much wiser move)

    the other option is to engineer the product to such a high quality that the manufacturer will know a failure is impossible or to say this has a service life of x hours after that its over they do this with aeroplanes and yes parts still break but because of this most components for a plane costs more than some automobiles

    when a big company like specialized for example gets a frame made for anything from 60 to 200 dollars dollars in taiwan and it breaks they have pretty much covered their own back 5 times over with the built in retail price of the bike and can throw new frames at customers however from experience a hand crafted bike made in the usa costs way more than a mass manufactured frame even in waste materials alone so (on top of that ive seen plenty of folks posting on the fact their enduro broke but they dont seem to whine and complain and wriggle to get a new bike they just get a new frame) and are happy folks again

    the guys that like to complain are usually the ones who have been unjustly treated (in their opinion)ive been on both ends of the argument

    when it boils down to it at least there is a choice being offered in that you can pay a small sum of money for a replacement at the end of the day if the manufacturer was as pedantic as some of the posts in these forums they too could examine every aspect hairline crack circumstance of why the bit broke and im pretty sure could come up wwith 5 reasons why its not covered under warranty and after 6 months and a huge waste of money time and effort youd never buy another bike from manufacturer A and you wouldnt have done much riding that company would have lost another customer and the ever decreasing circle would continue from there

    so my vote is on the fact that at least we have a warranty to go to when things go wrong

    i stopped complaining years ago now i just ride and accept the inevitable
    Sounds reasonable enough until you compare Ellsworth to their real competitors: Titus, Turner, Ventana. These companies, like Ellsworth, are selling high priced, US made frames (Titus and Ventana actually build their own frames). Everything you said about Ellsworth vs. the big guys applies to these companies as well. The difference is that Tony Ellsworth has 1) doctored magazine reviews on his company's website then lied about it here on MTBR.com and 2) treated a significant number of customers (myself included) very poorly. The people behind Titus, Turner and Ventana have great reputations for honesty and integrity. The same cannot be said for Ellsworth. To me, it's not about the particulars of the warranty and it's not about the bikes (I liked my Ellsworth a lot). It's about the integrity of the person behind the company name.
    The glass is twice as large as it needs to be

  19. #19
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    just read ventana warranty

    Quote Originally Posted by andy f
    Sounds reasonable enough until you compare Ellsworth to their real competitors: Titus, Turner, Ventana. These companies, like Ellsworth, are selling high priced, US made frames (Titus and Ventana actually build their own frames). Everything you said about Ellsworth vs. the big guys applies to these companies as well. The difference is that Tony Ellsworth has 1) doctored magazine reviews on his company's website then lied about it here on MTBR.com and 2) treated a significant number of customers (myself included) very poorly. The people behind Titus, Turner and Ventana have great reputations for honesty and integrity. The same cannot be said for Ellsworth. To me, it's not about the particulars of the warranty and it's not about the bikes (I liked my Ellsworth a lot). It's about the integrity of the person behind the company name.
    i am curious what do you think is better in that warranty. they dont warranty rear shock beyond 1 year either. same as Ellsworth. i see nothing in their warranty that is better than Ellsworth warranty.

    i know you will probably say that Ells doesnt honour their warranty etc, etc like few members of this forum are saying. i dont really think it is right. 3 years down the road someone expects to have shock replaced as well because rocker arm broke and need to be replaced with the new design one?

    again, i'd rather pay a little extra and get new design rocker arm on my bike and buy a new shock than have free old rocker arm and my 3 years old shock...

    but that is me... YMMW

    i'd still want to know why you think Ventana warranty is better than Ells...
    Last edited by osokolo; 02-16-2004 at 07:29 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    i am curious what do you think is better in that warranty. they dont warranty rear shock beyond 1 year either. same as Ellsworth. i see nothing in their warranty that is better than Ellsworth warranty.

    i know you will probably say that Ells doesnt honour their warranty etc, etc like few members of this forum are saying. i dont really think it is right. 3 years down the road someone expects to have shock replaced as well because rocker arm broke and need to be replaced with the new design one?

    again, i'd rather pay a little extra and get new design rocker arm on my bike and buy a new shock than have free old rocker arm and my 3 years old shock...

    but that is me... YMMW

    i'd still want to know why you think Ventana warranty is better than Ells...
    I specifically said in my post that it is not about the particulars of the warranty. I do not think Ventana's warranty is better than Ellsworth's. I do think Sherwood Gibson is a better person than Tony Ellsworth.
    The glass is twice as large as it needs to be

  21. #21
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    fair enough...

    Quote Originally Posted by andy f
    I specifically said in my post that it is not about the particulars of the warranty. I do not think Ventana's warranty is better than Ellsworth's. I do think Sherwood Gibson is a better person than Tony Ellsworth.
    i dont know either one. i was searching for the best bike for my needs. didnt have any intentions to sleep with the owner of the company.

    joking aside, i really couldnt care less about who better person is. as long as the manufacturer obeys what the warranty sheet says, they are the best people on the planet. mind you, i dont expect that they replace my shock in three years if the rocker arn needs replacement. maybe that is the difference between the people that regard Ells warranty fair and people that dont.

    and that is why it is good to have Ventana, Titus, Turner etc... to each his own...

    our goals are the same i hope, and that is to have as much fun on the trails as possible. how we achieve that and what tools we use, it is really unimportant. agree?

  22. #22
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    Just wanted to weigh in with my 2 cents...

    I worked in a bike shop (as both a mechanic and Manager) since 1990 up until a year ago. I've owned an Ellsworth (2000 Dare), as well as a Turner (95ish Burner), as well as countless other bikes. I jumped on the FS bandwagon back in '94 when I got my Answer-Manitou FS frame (and of all the bikes I've owned, I think I miss this one the most. Then my 1st generation Yeti Lawill) I'm also still on my '98 Chuck which has broken once and was rewelded, but since the company is now defunct (in fact, defunct since 2001 or so) I hope it doesn't brake again as I really enjoy this bike and don't want to get another. All this said, here's something that I've been thinking about reading these posts...

    Not to weigh in for or against Ellsworth, a warranty is only as good as 2 things: 1. how good the company behind the warranty is (and I'll clarify this statement in a bit), and 2. How good the place you got the product (in this case frame) is. Now, being officially out of the bike biz, I do buy most of my stuff Mail order, as you cannot beat price, and I've got enough certifications to know that I'm equally or more qualified to fix a bike than 90% of the bike shop mechanics (I've known a few over the years who can still outfix me, thus the 10%, and I know I don't know everything). But I still maintain a good relationship with my LBS, as when it comes down to it, they will sometimes (I must STRESS SOMETIMES) have more, or at least, extra pull, than the average consumer. At the same time, I've seen enough broken frames through the years, ranging from the Biggest Company (Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc) to the smallest boutique brand to know that any and every type of bike breaks. I've had warranty experiences that range from unbelievable in a good way(Specialized telling me to give a customer a brand new bike off the floor no questions asked, after said customer dropped 3 grand on a bike only to have it break at a weld 3 months later) to unbelievable in a bad way (a brand new frame coming in and after unwrapping it from the plastic finding a lug not welded, and having the company tell me that I'm wrong, that's not correct, and either the shop or our customer will have to pay to get it fixed (in the end, neither did, but neither the shop nor the customer were happy)-That company starts with a W). I've been able and willing to warranty questionable things because the customer is reasonable, loyal (and loyal to me never meant only buying from us. It meant repeat business, and understandingthat I can't always match a price, but always giving me a shot to come close to match a price, as well as sending me business). I've twisted arms and butted heads with inside warranties guys, some of who have bent over backwards to make things right. Sometimes they can and will go the extra mile. Sometimes they can't. Sometimes great companies have an inside guy who doesn't give a crap and can never see the shop or customer's (and in the end, the shop is really just a customer as well) point of view. Hell, a couple of times I can't see my own customer's point of view. On the other hand, I've loaned out my own personal spare bike to a customer, just to keep them happy, not to make sure I kept them as a customer (of course I did) but because I would want someone to do the same for me. What I'm saying with this ridiculously long rant and still haven't broached the real subject of Ellsworth's (or anyone else for that matter) warranty, is that there can be lots a variables to why something gets warrantied and why it doesn't. As a service manager, though, my belief was simple: if your product failed unreasonably (that is, in a way that clearly is not through abuse) I would've done anything in my power to do the right thing for you the customer.

    Now, let me state that I loved my Ellsworth. When it rolled into the shop I didn't need to chase a single thread or face the head or bb. The welds were superb. Granted, it was disc only and they still had your typical slotted, housing stops (that is, you couldn't run a continuous hydro hose, and this was pre Avid discs, and only Hayes had their 1st generation cable actuated discs, so if you ran discs, and again, on this bike you had too, you ran hydros) which made no sense to me and I still never got an good answer for. But it was a sweet ride nonetheless (since sold it to a hopefully happy rider). Still it was pricey, and there is a thing we call planned obsolescence, which the first time you learn about pisses you off. When I got my Chuck they were a hot company, a couple of years old. I waited 2 months for this also pricey frame, but again, ride and quality wise I still haven't been able to fault this frame. It broke in the beginning of summer, 2001, right on a weld (this bike has a lot of welds, due to how it is built. I'll post a picture if anyone is really interested and actually gets this far in reading). Now when I got this bike, it came with a "100 year" warranty. I now had heard that Chuck was going under but some of the guys had started a rear shock company (which also, of course, went under), so assuming that I would probably have to pay to get it fixed, I now hoped that maybe they had some some parts (it was a rear stay, right at the disc tab, that broke). I was then put in touch with the original fabricator, whose name is also on a sticker on my down tube. Calling him, he was super nice, and told me to send it back and he would reweld the section with a gusset, at no charge. I didn't ask for this nor expected, but I was, naturally, thrilled. So in May, I sent the frame back to CA. In the meantime I built up the Ellsworth with my lighter parts (and surprisingly it was not the 3 or so pound heavier frame I noticed. It was the 2 inch longer wheel base that I wasn't used to on a cross country bike!). And I waited. And waited. A month later (I figured, hey, this guy was doing me favor, sort of) I called and politely asked when he thought I'd get me bike back. He was still nice and said he'd get on it and I'd have it soon. So I waited. I waited till August, roughly 4 months since I had sent it out. I was still polite, but this time I wouldn't let up without questions. What could possible take so long? The long of it was, he began complaining to me about the company (Chuck) still owing him money for frames, for warranty issues, etc, and that this was all coming out of his pocket. If he had told me hey, I have to charge you, I would've paid. If he had said, man, I've had a tough summer, I would've understood. But he told me things that I neither had control over nor were involved with, and frankly, had nothing to do with my business with him. Me and him, plain and simple. I will fix the bike, no charge. I eventually got my frame, no charge, but once it breaks again, new bike. The point of this part of the story is this--I've dealt with my own broken bike. I've known others who bought an expensive product with the ass-umption that Lifetime means lifetime. BS. That's just not the case.
    It's reasonbly clear that Tony does build his bikes with planned obsolescence. I'm not judging this, just stating a fact. I've seen companies warranty a bike that broke on a weld, or something else reasonably clear-cut (that is, not been abused and pretty evident that it was more than likely a manufacturing issue which, with some of the EW's is the case) 6 or more years after that model was made. Doesn't matter that this suspension model is completely different, and possibly changed 6 times as well. Yeah we goofed on that one. Sorry you're out your bike for the week it takes us to get it and get the new one to you, but we want to keep you as our customer cause we know you in the end are our best advertisement. 9 times out of 10 that customer is happy.
    I know Ellsworth is a small company. They can't send out a new frame every time someone jumps off a 10 foot drop with their Truth. At the same time, we, as consumers, must ask: if we know a company has consistantly changed there design every 2 or so years (which is not in itself a bad thing or we would all still be riding rigid 12 speed 35 lb stumpjumpers), which effectively negates the "Lifetime" warranty, do you want to spend that much on a bike? Some will, and some will not. Some great points have have been made from this original post, things that are good to think about for any frame or bike purchase. Zonoskar wrote, " Tony himself noted that independent studies have shown that the majority of manufacturer defects will show in the first year of use. Providing 2 year warranty will safeguard that almost every manufacturer defect will show before the warranty period expires. After that, it's just leniency of the manufacturer against mis-use. A lifetime warranty may even provoke mis-use!" Its also been said that Tony has perhaps used the "Lifetime" warranty as a selling feature, which could be the case as well.

    The fact that there have been so many posts about this issue (albeit by many of the same people, but this is how a dialogue works), is good thing. Of course there are going to be those who bad mouth a product or talk up a product and are truly talking out of their rears (the guy on the Trek Forum-I can't even begin to guess what is going through his head, and you'll know who I'm talking about as soon as you read his posts), but I think its equally important for people to email you as you want them to do as well as post on this board, whatever their feelings might be. That's what a FORUM is all about, although I'm also ready to go back to the old forum, but that's just me. Of course, blatantly personal attacks typically ruin one's own credibility, rather than the attackee's, so we should keep this in mind as we post.

    Yours
    Dave
    neveride, now riding much more since leaving the bike industry

  23. #23
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    Thanks Dave for taking the time to write that lengthy post, and TE for writing that first post. I think that we as customers need to feel that we are protected and that we are being met by the company if something, anything, ever happens with his bike. Unfortenately, EW have been rather hit-miss in the customer-service department, and that is simply a big no-no for a small business. Everyone must feel that they are being met by the company in anything, big or small ever happens to them. It is absolutely imperative.
    Then, the warranty itself. Like someone wise said above, maybe people are "misusing" the warranty so they can justify abusing it to smitherens "Hey! I`ll just get an new one when this dies! It`s warrantied for my entire lifetime!". Just check that kid and his pals who hucked their garageroof... I think that the "lifetime" part is confusing people. If you offered a much more straightforward warr. like 2 years unconditional warranty and then parts at cost, that would be a much more clearcut situation.
    I`m eyeing a slightly used Dare -02 and this hasen`t swayed my opinion about your bikes TE, but i`m not quite sure what to expect if i need to get i touch with you or your company for some reason.
    Just one piece of advice for TE: make sure that everyone that takes contact with you and your company feels that you are doing the utmost to satisfie and please them. Go the extra yard!

    Remember a happy customer is a returning customer.

    Regards, erol/frost
    www.frostnet.nu
    Last edited by erol/frost; 02-17-2004 at 05:02 AM.

  24. #24
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    many thanks from me as well...

    for taking time to give us your opiinion. I wouldnt say anything more or less...


    Quote Originally Posted by neveride
    I worked in a bike shop (as both a mechanic and Manager) since 1990 up until a year ago. I've owned an Ellsworth (2000 Dare), as well as a Turner (95ish Burner), as well as countless other bikes. I jumped on the FS bandwagon back in '94 when I got my Answer-Manitou FS frame (and of all the bikes I've owned, I think I miss this one the most. Then my 1st generation Yeti Lawill) I'm also still on my '98 Chuck which has broken once and was rewelded, but since the company is now defunct (in fact, defunct since 2001 or so) I hope it doesn't brake again as I really enjoy this bike and don't want to get another. All this said, here's something that I've been thinking about reading these posts...

    Not to weigh in for or against Ellsworth, a warranty is only as good as 2 things: 1. how good the company behind the warranty is (and I'll clarify this statement in a bit), and 2. How good the place you got the product (in this case frame) is. Now, being officially out of the bike biz, I do buy most of my stuff Mail order, as you cannot beat price, and I've got enough certifications to know that I'm equally or more qualified to fix a bike than 90% of the bike shop mechanics (I've known a few over the years who can still outfix me, thus the 10%, and I know I don't know everything). But I still maintain a good relationship with my LBS, as when it comes down to it, they will sometimes (I must STRESS SOMETIMES) have more, or at least, extra pull, than the average consumer. At the same time, I've seen enough broken frames through the years, ranging from the Biggest Company (Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc) to the smallest boutique brand to know that any and every type of bike breaks. I've had warranty experiences that range from unbelievable in a good way(Specialized telling me to give a customer a brand new bike off the floor no questions asked, after said customer dropped 3 grand on a bike only to have it break at a weld 3 months later) to unbelievable in a bad way (a brand new frame coming in and after unwrapping it from the plastic finding a lug not welded, and having the company tell me that I'm wrong, that's not correct, and either the shop or our customer will have to pay to get it fixed (in the end, neither did, but neither the shop nor the customer were happy)-That company starts with a W). I've been able and willing to warranty questionable things because the customer is reasonable, loyal (and loyal to me never meant only buying from us. It meant repeat business, and understandingthat I can't always match a price, but always giving me a shot to come close to match a price, as well as sending me business). I've twisted arms and butted heads with inside warranties guys, some of who have bent over backwards to make things right. Sometimes they can and will go the extra mile. Sometimes they can't. Sometimes great companies have an inside guy who doesn't give a crap and can never see the shop or customer's (and in the end, the shop is really just a customer as well) point of view. Hell, a couple of times I can't see my own customer's point of view. On the other hand, I've loaned out my own personal spare bike to a customer, just to keep them happy, not to make sure I kept them as a customer (of course I did) but because I would want someone to do the same for me. What I'm saying with this ridiculously long rant and still haven't broached the real subject of Ellsworth's (or anyone else for that matter) warranty, is that there can be lots a variables to why something gets warrantied and why it doesn't. As a service manager, though, my belief was simple: if your product failed unreasonably (that is, in a way that clearly is not through abuse) I would've done anything in my power to do the right thing for you the customer.

    Now, let me state that I loved my Ellsworth. When it rolled into the shop I didn't need to chase a single thread or face the head or bb. The welds were superb. Granted, it was disc only and they still had your typical slotted, housing stops (that is, you couldn't run a continuous hydro hose, and this was pre Avid discs, and only Hayes had their 1st generation cable actuated discs, so if you ran discs, and again, on this bike you had too, you ran hydros) which made no sense to me and I still never got an good answer for. But it was a sweet ride nonetheless (since sold it to a hopefully happy rider). Still it was pricey, and there is a thing we call planned obsolescence, which the first time you learn about pisses you off. When I got my Chuck they were a hot company, a couple of years old. I waited 2 months for this also pricey frame, but again, ride and quality wise I still haven't been able to fault this frame. It broke in the beginning of summer, 2001, right on a weld (this bike has a lot of welds, due to how it is built. I'll post a picture if anyone is really interested and actually gets this far in reading). Now when I got this bike, it came with a "100 year" warranty. I now had heard that Chuck was going under but some of the guys had started a rear shock company (which also, of course, went under), so assuming that I would probably have to pay to get it fixed, I now hoped that maybe they had some some parts (it was a rear stay, right at the disc tab, that broke). I was then put in touch with the original fabricator, whose name is also on a sticker on my down tube. Calling him, he was super nice, and told me to send it back and he would reweld the section with a gusset, at no charge. I didn't ask for this nor expected, but I was, naturally, thrilled. So in May, I sent the frame back to CA. In the meantime I built up the Ellsworth with my lighter parts (and surprisingly it was not the 3 or so pound heavier frame I noticed. It was the 2 inch longer wheel base that I wasn't used to on a cross country bike!). And I waited. And waited. A month later (I figured, hey, this guy was doing me favor, sort of) I called and politely asked when he thought I'd get me bike back. He was still nice and said he'd get on it and I'd have it soon. So I waited. I waited till August, roughly 4 months since I had sent it out. I was still polite, but this time I wouldn't let up without questions. What could possible take so long? The long of it was, he began complaining to me about the company (Chuck) still owing him money for frames, for warranty issues, etc, and that this was all coming out of his pocket. If he had told me hey, I have to charge you, I would've paid. If he had said, man, I've had a tough summer, I would've understood. But he told me things that I neither had control over nor were involved with, and frankly, had nothing to do with my business with him. Me and him, plain and simple. I will fix the bike, no charge. I eventually got my frame, no charge, but once it breaks again, new bike. The point of this part of the story is this--I've dealt with my own broken bike. I've known others who bought an expensive product with the ass-umption that Lifetime means lifetime. BS. That's just not the case.
    It's reasonbly clear that Tony does build his bikes with planned obsolescence. I'm not judging this, just stating a fact. I've seen companies warranty a bike that broke on a weld, or something else reasonably clear-cut (that is, not been abused and pretty evident that it was more than likely a manufacturing issue which, with some of the EW's is the case) 6 or more years after that model was made. Doesn't matter that this suspension model is completely different, and possibly changed 6 times as well. Yeah we goofed on that one. Sorry you're out your bike for the week it takes us to get it and get the new one to you, but we want to keep you as our customer cause we know you in the end are our best advertisement. 9 times out of 10 that customer is happy.
    I know Ellsworth is a small company. They can't send out a new frame every time someone jumps off a 10 foot drop with their Truth. At the same time, we, as consumers, must ask: if we know a company has consistantly changed there design every 2 or so years (which is not in itself a bad thing or we would all still be riding rigid 12 speed 35 lb stumpjumpers), which effectively negates the "Lifetime" warranty, do you want to spend that much on a bike? Some will, and some will not. Some great points have have been made from this original post, things that are good to think about for any frame or bike purchase. Zonoskar wrote, " Tony himself noted that independent studies have shown that the majority of manufacturer defects will show in the first year of use. Providing 2 year warranty will safeguard that almost every manufacturer defect will show before the warranty period expires. After that, it's just leniency of the manufacturer against mis-use. A lifetime warranty may even provoke mis-use!" Its also been said that Tony has perhaps used the "Lifetime" warranty as a selling feature, which could be the case as well.

    The fact that there have been so many posts about this issue (albeit by many of the same people, but this is how a dialogue works), is good thing. Of course there are going to be those who bad mouth a product or talk up a product and are truly talking out of their rears (the guy on the Trek Forum-I can't even begin to guess what is going through his head, and you'll know who I'm talking about as soon as you read his posts), but I think its equally important for people to email you as you want them to do as well as post on this board, whatever their feelings might be. That's what a FORUM is all about, although I'm also ready to go back to the old forum, but that's just me. Of course, blatantly personal attacks typically ruin one's own credibility, rather than the attackee's, so we should keep this in mind as we post.

    Yours
    Dave
    neveride, now riding much more since leaving the bike industry

  25. #25

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    Tony E. , you have one question to ask yourself....

    ...Ask yourself why there are so many "screw Ellsworth" threads and yet no "Screw Turner" threads, "Screw Ventana Threads" , "Screw Moots" threads , 'Screw Intense" threads or 'Screw Titus" threads on MTBR.

    Feel the gin

  26. #26
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    Exactly!

    First let me say I've never owned a ellsworth, and I have no experience in dealing with them. I have not been treated well by them or abused by them. Though I've been looking at buying a Truth / ID for over a year now and have read everything I can on them. There are a lot of happy ellsworth owners, all you have to do is read reviews on the truth/id to verify that.

    If Tony's ideas of "well only the unsatisfied customers complain" and that's the reason you see so many complaints of being treated poorly by ellsworth are true. Why don't we see these kind of posts about ventana, turner, titus, seven, intense etc? Shouldn't there be just as many upset people having problems with those bikes? There no doubt are some out there but not nearly as many. I've seen that sony study quoted in other industries as well, it's always used as an excuse by companies who have unsatisfied customers complain. It's a cope out, plain and simple. If the study held true every company would have the same amount of unhappy customers (and online complaints) proportional to their sales.....that just doesn't happen. If that were true, we'd have countless complaining about trek, giant, specialized, who sell the most bikes.

    As to the warranty, I disagree with the idea of the customer having to pay for a warranty issue. The idea of covering a swingarm for warranty, then charging the customer for a shock/rockers/front triangle because they no longer make compatable parts anymore is to me pathetic. If it's a defect then it should be taken care of at NO CHARGE to the customer. If you can't make enough money from $2000-2300 bike frame sales to cover the costs of a full replacement frame for the few that are defective, then you are in the wrong business or you need to make less defective frames. At the most I can see charging your cost for a new rear shock if the old one will not work, but in a warranty replacement case nothing else should be charged for.

    If the bike was broken from abuse, then it's not a warranty issue, it's a crash replacement issue. Now if it's crash damage or abuse, then a fair crash replacement price can be worked out. However I think it's totally unrealistic to expect the customer to pick up the cost for a defect just because a company has changed their design. In just about every industry if you break something that is no longer produced the company gives you their current model in equal or better quality range.

    I realize there is a gray area here, someone that rides a truth for freeriding, depending on your definiton of freeriding could be abusing the bike, which if it fails in 3 years after jumping off 5' walls and such should not be warranty work. I'm sure that's hard to prove on the manufacturers end, and some customers will never be satisfied no mater how well you treat them.

    Also as Tony states there are a lot of people that abuse the SNOT out of bikes and expect them to be replaced free, which is just as wrong or worse in my opinion. If you abuse your bike, you should be on a bike built for abuse. That's not a truth or an ID, no where will you see Ellsworth recommend a ID for freeriding. The joker is probably more gray area, if you market a bike as a downhill and all mountain bike it better be able to take the abuse, if it fails from downhill or freeriding then it's warranty because you market the bike to those riders.

    This is the bottom line, no matter if ellsworth's above warranty practices are to the letter of their warranty or not, I can guarantee it is costing them customers. Warranty is very important to customers especially with the cost of bikes these days. Customers are doing a lot of research online about products before they buy these days and are way more informed than they were even 2 years ago.

    I have no doubt that Tony's statements about the complications of warranty and customer service, or that they handle the warranty to the letter of their warranty statement. However, after reading Tony's posts his tone and statements do not encourage enthusiasm to purchase his products or much faith that if I had a defect it would be handled to my satisfaction.

    Maybe you can compromise on your warranty....... you say that most defects show up in the first year, okay well how about we extend that to 2 years.....that would cover riders that don't ride as much as others. Make that 2 year warranty pretty much no questions, no costs, except for in obvious cases of abuse IE I drove my truck over it, etc.

    Then after the 2 years do your current warranty, in that if something breaks and parts are no longer available, they get the broken part for free under warranty, and the rest of the frame/shock parts at cost. Also if there is a obvious defect that has happened repeatedly it would probably be a good idea to cover that totally as well.

    Then I would add a section for crash replacement/abuse, stating that if your failure is determined to be from a crash, or abusive riding the bike was not designed for you will be given the opportunity to either replace the broken part for reduced cost, or in neccessary the entire frame for a reduced cost.

    That would pretty much cover most issues that would come up. People would know up front that in 2 years they are covered, after that they can expect to pay some for replacement and at any time if it's crash or abuse damage they expect to pay. Of course this would only be applicable to the original owner.

    I have no doubt that Tony feels he makes the best bikes in the industry, with that kind of confidence I'd think he'd want to back them up with the best warranty.

  27. #27
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    ToddM put it nicely. How about a comment from Mr Ellsworth himself on these suggestions?

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    Oh please

    Quote Originally Posted by erol/frost
    ToddM put it nicely. How about a comment from Mr Ellsworth himself on these suggestions?
    Give me a break!!! Do you actually want to read another list of excuses? Nothing will change. The only thing that may prompt a change would be a loss of sales.

    btw.....changing a warranty period or warranty details is not a small deal. There is always a chance that it will be misconstrued and sales will drop.

    Here's the problem for Mr. Ellsworth and the warranty:

    Currently, without looking at the details, it appears that Ellsworth has the best warranty in the boutique bike business. In actuality, the Ellsworth warranty is at best equal to other boutique builders warranties. I believe that it's most likely one of the worst.

    The issue is that prospective buyers, outside of MTBR, don't know about the warranty particulars. Many will buy the bike because they heard great things about the BIKES and "look....it has a lifetime warranty...I'm totally protected" If Ellsworth changed his warranty, he may lose those sales. Talk about a rock and a hard place.

  29. #29
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    Well boo-hoo on you motherfuxxxr if you didn`t like what i wrote. I believe in an open dialogue-environment. And i want to know what TE thinks about our suggestions.

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    my take

    Quote Originally Posted by WarrGuru
    Give me a break!!! Do you actually want to read another list of excuses? Nothing will change. The only thing that may prompt a change would be a loss of sales.

    btw.....changing a warranty period or warranty details is not a small deal. There is always a chance that it will be misconstrued and sales will drop.

    Here's the problem for Mr. Ellsworth and the warranty:

    Currently, without looking at the details, it appears that Ellsworth has the best warranty in the boutique bike business. In actuality, the Ellsworth warranty is at best equal to other boutique builders warranties. I believe that it's most likely one of the worst.

    The issue is that prospective buyers, outside of MTBR, don't know about the warranty particulars. Many will buy the bike because they heard great things about the BIKES and "look....it has a lifetime warranty...I'm totally protected" If Ellsworth changed his warranty, he may lose those sales. Talk about a rock and a hard place.
    Ellsworth warranty is better than most, BUT, it is hardly a lifetime warranty as advertised.

    The design changes are good, BUT, not when your frame breaks and you have to pay for them

    Customer service is great, BUT, warranty claims are not handled in a consistant manner

    I believe he has a great product, BUT, he has pissed off a lot of people and his latest decision to charge people with broken Truth frames for the 2004 suspension upgrade is hurting him.

    Change the warranty AND make sure your frames are durable.

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    ellsworth

    i like a strong usa built bike. i bought a rotec xc4 in 2000 they only made 100 of these 4 bar bikes.the company was sold out,but the new owner of the company,is the best at taking care of things.He said he would take care of the bike,and make it look new and ride like new and take care of things that he thought would make it better than new. Now thats a real true bike fan and a great owner of a true u.s of .a bike company.not some fat cat.buy rotec buy foes dont buy big brand u.s. bikes, they wont you to think they care they dont .

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    Ok sorry to all you guys when i last posted i sort of missed one of the major points of this section in the forum

    i see a lot of people are complaining about the fact that when the design was chnged it wasnt compatible i dont know much about the specifics of the change but it boils down to compatibility issues of the new not being 100 percent compatible with the old and people having to fork out more money to replace a whole bunch of parts than originally intended

    am i correct

    well if so i can only add my two pence worth

    if it comes down to the newer upgraded parts lasting a lot longer through better mechanical design than the old then i kind of(and i mean kind of) would be happy to pay the money provided it lasted a reasonable amount of time,(lifetime ill come to that later) however when it does come down to this point alone i would also be asking a very foolish question why the new design is so much better than the older outdated method on something which is reasonably similar

    if this is performance related then no real problem every manufacturer tweaks designs to make them function better or make it plusher (performance reasons) and it creates obsolescance(did i spell that right)and if this is the case you pay your money and get the updated better parts which in turn will make your older bike function better

    however if it is for a mechanical design point(ie the part breaks after six months and the manufacturer knows it) then i would be a bit less happy, how come this wasnt sorted at the design stage. if so this is a design fault or flaw(fault is a nasty term)if this is the case and the manufacturer knows about the problem then support in the form of older parts should be expected(amp research stopped making bikes years ago but you can still get spares from them) and therefore in the case of mechanical(not performance related upgrades)failures if its a known failure the spare should be available under warranty
    i would have two option i can pay for a performance boost and be happy however if im paying for a mechanical improvement that is through poor original design i would be less than a happy bunny

    which leads me onto anothe great warranty get out clause what is lifetime warranty

    the part could have a service life of 1 year or 10 years thats its life or how long it should last for whatever reason as i stated in a previous post everything will break and its pretty easy these days to say when it will break now shocks are warrantied for 1 year under most makers which i think is pretty good considering they get hammered and live in pretty terrible conditions but a frame dependant on its design can last anything from 6 months to 10 years really i think makers should be giving a warranty which is more detailed as to the lifetime of the frame on its mechanical based ground

    i think some people read lifetime and think it means it should never break it has a lifetime warranty what this actually means is the lifetime of the combied design and materials which is finite

    on the back of this im starting to agree with some of the guys warranty issues why ellsworth has changed the design, i dont know why but im pretty sure he will have done it to improve the product like i say if its for performance you should get a better bike and you are paying for improvements which make you bike perform that bit better

    i would too be miffed at having to pay for a design improvement for the reason that the old part only lasted x years but the new one is y years if i dont want the mechanical upgrade and just want the old i should have that part under warranty it broke before its expected lifetime if i dont want the new all singing all dancing super long lasting part i should at least be given a choice

    the only point which i can agree with is that most manufacturers try to improve their product for the better and kudos to ellsworth for it but from thios i would deduce that ellsworth a least wants to give the customer a better part or piece of equipment


    like i say ellsworth should give a choice (replace free if its a fault with the original)

    or offer a replacement with upgrade which should satisfy both parties involved

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    exactly holes in warranty was the point im trying to make

    there are so many get out clauses in them that its not as clear cut in print

    i was trying to be a bit clever and make my post read like a confusing statement
    just like some warranties

  34. #34
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    I know in my heart, and have verified with destructive testing and by FEAing others designs up and applying the same dynamic loading to my designs and theirs that Ellsworth bikes are more durable for the prescribed use then any in the industry by as much as double. AND they are all lighter then the same prescribed use bikes of other brands...

    This is an awesome quote to spit your lunch out in laughter to....

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    Bonking ... not feelin' well Beating a dead horse....

    The fact of the matter is TE was asking for constructive input. A few have done so, even if they don't agree with TE, but others just have to make comments that don't help anyone or post things just to provoke others... stop you are just beating a dead horse, we know you are not satisfied, so move on.

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    Let the horse die...

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Meanwhile, "prescribed usage" is another ambiguous term. His prescribed usage could be a 120 pounder riding around on flat ground.
    Steve man, get over it. Life's too short to dwell on this thing.

    Tell you what, I know a lot of folks who ride Ells and every one of them...including myself...has been happy with the CS. This has just been a smear campaign orchistrated by a small handful of disgruntled riders is all. Read any MFRs warranty and they're all full of outs and ambiguous statements.

    Just don't BUY an EW...that'l show 'em

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    hehe, here comes the pill...

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Meanwhile, "prescribed usage" is another ambiguous term. His prescribed usage could be a 120 pounder riding around on flat ground.
    picture speaks a thousand words... or something like that... anyway...
    Attached Images Attached Images

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Tree
    The fact of the matter is TE was asking for constructive input. A few have done so, even if they don't agree with TE, but others just have to make comments that don't help anyone or post things just to provoke others... stop you are just beating a dead horse, we know you are not satisfied, so move on.

    Ok, how about Tony makes his warrenty less ILLEGAL. Go check the general section if you need the US laws spelled out for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Mike, unfortunately, I couldn't understand ANYTHING you said
    unfortunately, we cant help you with that. but i suggest you seek help.

    the proof of the problems are the new drafts of the EW warranty.
    i'd say that the company is listening to it's customers. that is exactly what i'd expect from Ellsworth. Actually, the reputation and tradition were two top reasons when i was choosing my bike...

    thanks steve3

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    is that how you broke your Tomac?

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Meanwhile, "prescribed usage" is another ambiguous term. His prescribed usage could be a 120 pounder riding around on flat ground.
    just wondering...

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    cited US laws were no less ambiguous...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Ok, how about Tony makes his warrenty less ILLEGAL. Go check the general section if you need the US laws spelled out for you.
    than the warranty itself. i hope you read it as well...

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    than the warranty itself. i hope you read it as well...

    Warrenty laws ambigous? are you insane? It CLEARLY states that if you offer a warrenty, that you MUST provide the customer a replacement or equivalent model at NO COST. It can't be much clearer than that.

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    why do you need lawyers then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Warrenty laws ambigous? are you insane? It CLEARLY states that if you offer a warrenty, that you MUST provide the customer a replacement or equivalent model at NO COST. It can't be much clearer than that.
    if it is so clear, why anyone needs lawyers sir?

    give me a break please... every law has a hole.

    remember O.J. sir?

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    if it is so clear, why anyone needs lawyers sir?

    give me a break please... every law has a hole.

    remember O.J. sir?
    ??? Again, are you you insane? Why are you making this up? There is no problem with the law, the problem is that just like the misquoted mountain bike review that used to exist on tony's site, no one has called him out on this until now tony has shown himself to be the kind of person that will get away with something untill someone calls him on it.

    We don't have ANY laywers and look at what we have accomplished, look at the new 2004 warrenty? Tony is still screwed by the "older" warrenty that was sold with older bikes, but now customers can call him out on it and know what regulations to speak of.

    OJ has nothing to do with this, and we have proved that we do have the power to change stuff.

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    i think steve meant he couldnt understand my hurried unstructured post

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    well, you must have known...

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Well, osokolo...Lets see here....
    "tradition": A tradition of poorly designed frames that has been admitted to by Tony and refusal to make no cost upgrades to owe up to his side of the bargain of making the best bikes in the industry? Tony is not royalty. The badge just tries to make it look like that. In fact, I saw "Ellsworth" tattooed across a Latin King's neck the other day.

    "reputation": Even more hilarious. A reputation of treating his dealer and customer base with as much inconsistancy as he has was a draw? A reputation of hate and animosity from business partners and customers?

    We can all understand the pride issue you have with your bike, but no one is attacking you until you attack them. The issues are with Ellsworth and you clearly stated "I must defend them against the bashers". Why? No one is saying you're less of a man because you ride and enjoy an Ellsworth. People have trouble with the man, not you or your bike. In fact, the crux is people love the bikes, but will not buy because they hate him.

    And bringing up the Tomac isn't going to make this thread die. I liked how you claimed to be forced to read this crap and you wanted the threads to go away, but you willingly and proactively kept them at the top for days after I stopped contributing and every post of yours said the same thing. Oddly enough, you told me I had nothing more to contribute, except saying the same thing over and over.

    Oh yeah, the snipit of not understanding...That's called taking something out of context and manipulating the meaning. That's a trick Tony has used extensively.
    when you started crapping again that i would be back..

    the beauty is in the eye of the beholder. if i think that Ellsworth has tradition, who cares if you dont think so. that is why i have Ellsworth bike and you have other bike. i hope you considered tradition of that other manufacturer before you burned your (and father's) money.

    as far as reputation goes, if you ever went or read about for example 24 hours of adrenaline events, you'd be surprised how many Ellsworth bikes were in use by high level competitors and those on the top of the recreational class... i guess they either dont read MTBR boards or dont give a sh** about what you and handful of others have to say about the brand. due credit to those who contributed to this discussion either way...

    and that snipit about not understanding was good, wasnt it? i know you liked it...

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    you really think so?

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Because they do the paperwork while you're at work.
    you apparently know nothing about law then...

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    you understood my point...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    ??? Again, are you you insane? Why are you making this up? There is no problem with the law, the problem is that just like the misquoted mountain bike review that used to exist on tony's site, no one has called him out on this until now tony has shown himself to be the kind of person that will get away with something untill someone calls him on it.

    We don't have ANY laywers and look at what we have accomplished, look at the new 2004 warrenty? Tony is still screwed by the "older" warrenty that was sold with older bikes, but now customers can call him out on it and know what regulations to speak of.

    OJ has nothing to do with this, and we have proved that we do have the power to change stuff.
    and no, i am not insane. if laws were so clear and easy to understand, we wouldnt need lawyers. they dont just do paperwork. they look for and they FIND holes in rules, regulations and laws.

    you think that TE changed his warranty in order to avoid law suits? there are so many owners with the old warranty that this change would do nothing to change circumstances. i believe he is changing his warranty to make it simpler to read and understand and most importantly interprete.

    i am not saying that this is bad thing, actually i think it is good thing. and maybe you are even right in stating that he is changing it in order to avoid law suits. i dont care, personally. i didnt interpret the warranty the way you did and few others. and i am sure that there are more people who interpreted it the way i did.

    again, nothing wrong with changing the warranty if customers are demanding it. it could be more productive if you proposed changes directly to TE once you post them on this board...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    This is an awesome quote to spit your lunch out in laughter to....
    if you qoute tonys statement about testing then the guy probably has done that testing

    problem is there are so many variables in testing and if fea is fraught with danger if its done incorrectly

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    oh my...

    Quote Originally Posted by mikedesign
    i think steve meant he couldnt understand my hurried unstructured post
    of course... you are right...

  51. #51
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    dont be defensive

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    the post to mike was meant in a friendly way and I denoted that by saying something to the effect of how there's probably some good material in there...

    and your posts are getting shorter and shorter, osokolo.

    Also, osokolo can't really consolidate his posts to under four, can he?
    pun was intended...

    but you lost me on the last statement. care to clarify? i am sure it is insignificant and/or irrelevant, but hey...

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    and no, i am not insane. if laws were so clear and easy to understand, we wouldnt need lawyers. they dont just do paperwork. they look for and they FIND holes in rules, regulations and laws...
    We obviously need lawyers for people like Tony Ellsworth, who has no regard for the law. Tony doesn't really need to worry about lawsuits either, because lawsuits are usually in the contex of some sort of flawed or unsafe products, and when they were "flawed" tony has changed them, that is not in dispute. People are not going to sue tony for his warrenty being illegal, but if notified federal regulators might go after him. It is much more effeciant for tony or any other company to "concede" when the odd customer challenges their unfair or illegal policy, but it doesn't mean that the company will change the policy for everyone, just those few that are motivated enough, and are either vocal or threaten to sue on the correct grounds- will often have acceptable results.

    I shouldn't have to be saying this, but in this latest "round" your light is getting dimmer and dimmer. You are pulling things out of the sky, you are saying things that have absolutely no relation to the topic at hand.

    The fact is, tony's warrenty was (and is for the people that aren't going to have the changed 2004 warrenty) illegal. It's that simple. There's no ambiguity about it, the laws are clear. It has nothing to do with lawyers. There is no "second point of view" when the laws are clear and not in conflict with other laws. There are no loopholes in the laws regulating his written warrenty.

    Tony has a history of manipulationg the riding community, and he has shown lately that he will continue to as long as people are generally unware of his practices.

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    sure you will say my light is getting dimmer and dimmer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    We obviously need lawyers for people like Tony Ellsworth, who has no regard for the law. Tony doesn't really need to worry about lawsuits either, because lawsuits are usually in the contex of some sort of flawed or unsafe products, and when they were "flawed" tony has changed them, that is not in dispute. People are not going to sue tony for his warrenty being illegal, but if notified federal regulators might go after him. It is much more effeciant for tony or any other company to "concede" when the odd customer challenges their unfair or illegal policy, but it doesn't mean that the company will change the policy for everyone, just those few that are motivated enough, and are either vocal or threaten to sue on the correct grounds- will often have acceptable results.

    I shouldn't have to be saying this, but in this latest "round" your light is getting dimmer and dimmer. You are pulling things out of the sky, you are saying things that have absolutely no relation to the topic at hand.

    The fact is, tony's warrenty was (and is for the people that aren't going to have the changed 2004 warrenty) illegal. It's that simple. There's no ambiguity about it, the laws are clear. It has nothing to do with lawyers. There is no "second point of view" when the laws are clear and not in conflict with other laws. There are no loopholes in the laws regulating his written warrenty.

    Tony has a history of manipulationg the riding community, and he has shown lately that he will continue to as long as people are generally unware of his practices.
    and as far as i am concerned, your light is off.

    claim that the warranty is illegal is ridiculous. if it really was, someone would have come down on him already. simply because you dont like the warranty you decide to label it illegal. i am sure you are not a lawyer nor have any capacity to really deliver such verdict. that makes your light off.

    i am not saying warranty is legal or illegal, i dont care what TE does at his spare time, i like his product and i am fine with his warranty. live with it. you cant argue that, can you?

    why dont you sue TE? put your money where your mouth is.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo

    if it really was, someone would have come down on him already.


    Can't you think for yourself? Can't you read the laws? Shirely you're not serious?

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    good question, wrong person

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Can't you think for yourself? Can't you read the laws? Shirely you're not serious?
    you should ask yourself these questions... good luck.

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    steve, what is your offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Osokolo, your only defense of EW is that you like your bike and you like his warranty. As far as business is concerned, you're the ideal buyer because they can sell you anything and you'd happily buy it. Once you buy and it breaks because they didn't design it right, you'd buy another instead of taking your business elsewhere. I'm sure the bike stores see $$$$ when you walk in.
    at least give me the opportunity to break the frame. what if it never breaks? <i am sure you will now say "what if, what if">

    i dont think this frame will ever break, but if it does, like your tomac did, i will write about my experience.

    [QUOTE}Legal documents have been posted up and you're denying their reality reality. The issue is also his ethics. Why did he change the warranty if there was nothign wrong with it? He didn't have to change it if we were wrong, but he did, so that clearly shows something in him is trying to avert total disaster to his company.[/QUOTE]

    those legal documents existed before, didnt they? so they are nothing new. Ellsworth has been around for some time. get it? there still are way more Ellsworths on the trails than few other names that you mention as examples of good warranty and good product.

    Fact of the matter is the MTBR board did initiate change and there are people from the industry watching this. It would be a sad day if other manufacturers began treating customers like Tony did and I'm surprised many more didn't, in light of how long he got away with it for.
    that is your personal opinion and i dont want to argue it. you are entitled to it.

    i do disagree though...

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    good for you steve

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    "you should ask yourself these questions... good luck."

    Great comeback.
    My answer is no to those questions and you are serious. Hey, you asked someone else to answer questions about you
    really...

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Wait a minute, my personal opinion about it being a sad day if other bike companies try to rip us off is something you disagree with??? How's that? Because you happily want to throw away your hard earned money? You don't think it would be sad if the bike industry picked up some business tips from him?
    it'd be great if other companies could come up with something that is even better than ICT, because the ICT technology is currently the best anti-bob technology offered out there... so there are good, very good tips that others could learn from Ellsworth.

    also, everytime i called, Ellsworth CS took time to talk to me and ensure that i was happy with offered information, even when i was calling for the 5th time within a day...

    that is pretty good business practice.

    You disagree on the change the board initiated with EW. You think he would've changed anything if this thing didn't blow up with over 10,000 hits?
    i said it was a good thing, proving that TE is listening to his customer base. i appreciate that fact and i think that it proves that Ellsworth cares about their customers. now you will say "he admited that the warranty was wrong, that is why he is changing it"... but i think that the warranty was clearly spelled out and to every person able to read it should be understandable.

    this does not include people that got screwed for whatever reason including probably reasons like "abuse" or 'Improper use" but screwed customers could be found anywhere. ie. 2000 Audi S4 comes with twin turbo engine and if turbos blow within the warranty, Audi should replace them. well, Audi decided not to replace every set of turbos that went south with the claim that the engine was abused... etc...

    You're just looking for the last word in any way you can possibly make it, no matter how ridiculous it sounds. You think you have gotten one over on everyone else, but you don't address the issues. No, your bike hasn't broken and I don't think anyone cares about you as much as the company. You are not the center of the world and you don't work for EW, so stop acting like we're slandering you.
    actually i will let you have the last word here. go ahead and write something in your style to end this thread.

    i actually enjoyed discussing this issue with JM, not really with you...

    he had something to offer, unlike you...

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    that is pretty good
    this does not include people that got screwed for whatever reason including probably reasons like "abuse" or 'Improper use" but screwed customers could be found anywhere. ie. 2000 Audi S4 comes with twin turbo engine and if turbos blow within the warranty, Audi should replace them. well, Audi decided not to replace every set of turbos that went south with the claim that the engine was abused... etc...

    Maybe with this comment that you have just made, you can start to understand why we think tony is a lying sack of sheiße with no integrity.

    Above tony claimed that his bikes are the STRONGEST and are TWICE AS STRONG as other comparable bikes...I mean that was such a rediculous statement that I spit out my lunch while reading it. It is not unreasonable to think that a bike twice as strong can take twice the punishment and be ridden twice as hard. I am NOT advocating that at all, but based on what tony said, it's not an unreasonable thing to think. It would be like Audi saying that "our car, all of it, has been tested to be twice as strong and reliable as anything else out there". With such an outragous claim you'd think that your turbos would stand up to twice the abuse in the same amount of time, or that they'd last twice as long with a normal amount of abuse.

    It's these kinds of things that keep digging him deeper and deeper into the holes.

    One more thing, and it's not really for you or anyone else unless you want to look it up and check it out; ICT is a farce. It's a horst link bike like any else, and it uses chain torque to make it pedal right. Dialing in the right amount of chain torque in a bike is not easy, and it's one of the biggest reasons that different designs pedal better or worse than others. Giant's NRS system actually makes bob physically impossible because there is no sag and in that design bob trys to extend the shock, which is already extended so it doesn't bob with the hardest pedaling efforts. It also makes it a pretty stiff ride because it needs more pressure to work than other designs. It is not perfect, but the whole "ICT" thing is a farce, go ask any of the physics or suspension guys and they will all tell you the same thing, it's just a horst link bike, like any other for the most part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Maybe with this comment that you have just made, you can start to understand why we think tony is a lying sack of sheiße with no integrity.

    Above tony claimed that his bikes are the STRONGEST and are TWICE AS STRONG as other comparable bikes...I mean that was such a rediculous statement that I spit out my lunch while reading it. It is not unreasonable to think that a bike twice as strong can take twice the punishment and be ridden twice as hard. I am NOT advocating that at all, but based on what tony said, it's not an unreasonable thing to think. It would be like Audi saying that "our car, all of it, has been tested to be twice as strong and reliable as anything else out there". With such an outragous claim you'd think that your turbos would stand up to twice the abuse in the same amount of time, or that they'd last twice as long with a normal amount of abuse.
    i agree. that statement by TE was weak. there is no scientific methods to prove that claim and he should have refrained from saying something like that.

    on the other hand, i look at these engineering designers as some kind of artists with lot of emotions. sometimes they are emotional, other times they are arrogant etc... i think that these features are necessary for people that are "inventing" things... i dont know if i explained this well, maybe i even sounded funny but at least i tried.

    at the end, i still dont think he should have said that...

    It's these kinds of things that keep digging him deeper and deeper into the holes.
    i would not go that far, i'd just say they didnt help coming out clean...

    [/QUOTE}One more thing, and it's not really for you or anyone else unless you want to look it up and check it out; ICT is a farce. It's a horst link bike like any else, and it uses chain torque to make it pedal right. Dialing in the right amount of chain torque in a bike is not easy, and it's one of the biggest reasons that different designs pedal better or worse than others. Giant's NRS system actually makes bob physically impossible because there is no sag and in that design bob trys to extend the shock, which is already extended so it doesn't bob with the hardest pedaling efforts. It also makes it a pretty stiff ride because it needs more pressure to work than other designs. It is not perfect, but the whole "ICT" thing is a farce, go ask any of the physics or suspension guys and they will all tell you the same thing, it's just a horst link bike, like any other for the most part.[/QUOTE]

    either way, it is pretty sweet ride. i heard that the design was not really TE invention but who cares. he has the patent on it and that is the fact.

    havent tried NRS, heard good things about it. i am sure it is another superb bike... customer is always the winner at the end because he holds the money. and if there are many options out there, it only gets better. i am sure you will agree with this...

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Didn't Tony also say the bike was "100% efficient"? not possible. The technology being that good?

    Yeah, Tony Ellsworth is the only bike manufacturer, and the only person in the history of the world (evidently) to design a 100% efficiant machine...amazing eh?

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    No good

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Maybe with this comment that you have just made, you can start to understand why we think tony is a lying sack of sheiße with no integrity.

    Above tony claimed that his bikes are the STRONGEST and are TWICE AS STRONG as other comparable bikes...I mean that was such a rediculous statement that I spit out my lunch while reading it. It is not unreasonable to think that a bike twice as strong can take twice the punishment and be ridden twice as hard. I am NOT advocating that at all, but based on what tony said, it's not an unreasonable thing to think. It would be like Audi saying that "our car, all of it, has been tested to be twice as strong and reliable as anything else out there". With such an outragous claim you'd think that your turbos would stand up to twice the abuse in the same amount of time, or that they'd last twice as long with a normal amount of abuse.

    It's these kinds of things that keep digging him deeper and deeper into the holes.

    One more thing, and it's not really for you or anyone else unless you want to look it up and check it out; ICT is a farce. It's a horst link bike like any else, and it uses chain torque to make it pedal right. Dialing in the right amount of chain torque in a bike is not easy, and it's one of the biggest reasons that different designs pedal better or worse than others. Giant's NRS system actually makes bob physically impossible because there is no sag and in that design bob trys to extend the shock, which is already extended so it doesn't bob with the hardest pedaling efforts. It also makes it a pretty stiff ride because it needs more pressure to work than other designs. It is not perfect, but the whole "ICT" thing is a farce, go ask any of the physics or suspension guys and they will all tell you the same thing, it's just a horst link bike, like any other for the most part.

    So before it was about Tony E and his warranty and now that he changed it, your going to say ICT is a farse?! Give him some credit for listening and changing the warranty. He builds great bikes but made some bad business decisions-maybe he is trying to make things right. His bikes do ride well, and there is something to his ICT design that rides better than most others. Now he just needs to make sure his frames are durable!

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Anti bob? ICT bobs, let me tell be the first to inform you. There's a reason why stable platform was put on the bike before all the other companies had them. All bikes respond to rider input. That's simply the up and down motion of the pedaling and the rider.

    Didn't Tony also say the bike was "100% efficient"? not possible. The technology being that good? If it was that good, it would be worth licensing the patent, but apparently, other would rather go the route of the fsr license or VPP or any of the single pivot designs. Not saying it's bad, but the advantage doesn't outshadow the cost,
    ICT is clearly better than VPP, i hope we dont have to argue that.

    ICT or FSR, i dont know. i havent ridden FSR nor have researched it enough to be able to comment. maybe it is equally as good as ICT, maybe not...

    any FS will bob when you get up and mash it. even with 5th element or any other SP shock or fork. it is the overall performance with regards to bobbing that counts. it seems that ICT is the technology to have though...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Yeah, Tony Ellsworth is the only bike manufacturer, and the only person in the history of the world (evidently) to design a 100% efficiant machine...amazing eh?
    yeah, the earth would still continue revolving around the sun if he didnt say that, but he did...

    can you really blame the mother for saying that her child is the prettiest in the world?

    no, i am not trying to find the excuse, there is none, i am just trying to understand. we are all human, arent we. we all have said something similar to what TE said and we got away with it.... agree?

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    yeah, the earth would still continue revolving around the sun if he didnt say that, but he did...

    can you really blame the mother for saying that her child is the prettiest in the world?

    no, i am not trying to find the excuse, there is none, i am just trying to understand. we are all human, arent we. we all have said something similar to what TE said and we got away with it.... agree?
    No osokolo, i wouldn't blame tony if that was the only "half truth" that he states/has ever stated. I wouldn't be upset if there were a few little white-lies like that in the company propaganda, but due to the other outrages statements that he has made, not limited to this thread or this entire circumstance(the warrenty), it doesn't fit into the catagory of "white lies", it fits into the catagory of "more of the same BS".

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    "actually i will let you have the last word here. go ahead and write something in your style to end this thread. "

    I thought you were going to let me have the last word and you continue to tack on another last word. You visciously attacked others and took the EW bashing as personal, as if you have a stake in the company and now you're this really nice amicable guy that agrees with everyone so you can be their friend. That is an unrealistic about face you did and you dind not prove your side on the simple grounds that you liking your bike does not erase the harm Tony's own actions have done. It took him years and many pissed off people to get to this point. And if you say the board isn't relevant, check out Tony's id. He visits here regularly and views these very threads.

    On what grounds is ICT better than VPP? Please, let me see your independent testing data. ICT is FSR with the upper links as walking beams and thats really where the ICT patent lies. So, you are riding an FSR.
    oh geez, for a second i thought you were starting to discuss the issue sans your personal [email protected]! and then you come back with more...

    who cares who is the last. as you or pete said few times, if you dont like what i write dont click on the link...

    as far as VPP vs ICT goes, the harder you pedal VPP the stiffer the suspension becomes. so going uphill the rear suspension is virtually locked and bouncing over roots etc.

    ICT is independent from the pedaling force and it stays active all the time...

    see, you have just learned something tonight from me... the discussion didnt go in vain...

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    "actually i will let you have the last word here. go ahead and write something in your style to end this thread. "

    I thought you were going to let me have the last word and you continue to tack on another last word. You visciously attacked others and took the EW bashing as personal, as if you have a stake in the company and now you're this really nice amicable guy that agrees with everyone so you can be their friend. That is an unrealistic about face you did and you dind not prove your side on the simple grounds that you liking your bike does not erase the harm Tony's own actions have done. It took him years and many pissed off people to get to this point. And if you say the board isn't relevant, check out Tony's id. He visits here regularly and views these very threads.

    On what grounds is ICT better than VPP? Please, let me see your independent testing data. ICT is FSR with the upper links as walking beams and thats really where the ICT patent lies. So, you are riding an FSR.
    I've ridden both and Ells. design pedals better-period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    any FS will bob when you get up and mash it. even with 5th element or any other SP shock or fork. it is the overall performance with regards to bobbing that counts. it seems that ICT is the technology to have though...
    That is entirely untrue. SPV shocks can be turned to tune out bob, and other certain ones will drastically reduce it to levels so small that you feel like you are acellerating on a hardtail(romic). There is also the specialized/fox intertia valve which does a very good job of keeping the suspension from not bobbing at all. There are also FS designs that by nature of their design, do not bob. There are yet others that bob fairly minimally, and so forth. There is a very wide spectrum, and while MOST FS bikes bob, it is entirely not true. Because the shock is higher than the linkage on the NRS, when you pedal it tries to extend the shock, the proper wayto set up an NRS is with no sag. With no sag it can not physically extend, since it can't extend, it will have no bob. The tradeoff is that it rides much harsher than most bikes due to being effecively "oversprung". Tony's ICT farce is not the end of the world in terms of suspension nor efficiancy. It works well because it is an FSR bike. I like FSRs and I ride several of them actually. They aren't marketly better than some other designs except for the braking department, where they have a clear advantage over most everything else when designed correctly.

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    LOL! you guys are so engrossed(is that a word?) with each other's comments you didn't even notice someone else commenting. Just thought that was funny!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    LOL! you guys are so engrossed(is that a word?) with each other's comments you didn't even notice someone else commenting. Just thought that was funny!

    Why do you think that we didn't notice at first? because we didn't post? That is pretty weak. Do we have to reply to every post to "notice" it?

    Are you happy now?

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    ... and if we just ...

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    I think this issue is what osokolo was looking for because he wants to stray off the topic. It's his defense mechanism and he's been showing it for a week now. He uses anything and everything to get off topic.
    Dude, when are you going to get that Burner? you got to be sick of all this Tont E warranty crap.

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    ... and if we just ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Why do you think that we didn't notice at first? because we didn't post? That is pretty weak. Do we have to reply to every post to "notice" it?

    Are you happy now?
    Yes, thank you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    No osokolo, i wouldn't blame tony if that was the only "half truth" that he states/has ever stated. I wouldn't be upset if there were a few little white-lies like that in the company propaganda, but due to the other outrages statements that he has made, not limited to this thread or this entire circumstance(the warrenty), it doesn't fit into the catagory of "white lies", it fits into the catagory of "more of the same BS".
    so let me then try to understand this better...

    if TE was a supernice guy like, say, bill gates, and if he never stated things that you disliked etc... would his bikes be any different? any better maybe?

    really, i was after the best XC FS bike out there and my choice was the Truth. i didnt pull records on citizen TE in this process. why would i? i will not be riding him, but the bike he makes...

    i am sure that there are good stories when TE went beyond what he was supposed to go, but it is just not in the human nature to analyze these examples, but the other way around...

    i think i conceded that the world wouldnt be any better place to live in if TE didn say few things he said. I also agreed that the warranty could have been designed differently, not because i dont like existing one, but because TE would have had clearer case if the warranty said 1 or 2 years no question asked and then up to 10 years pro-rated crash replacement etc...

    if this board wanted to achieve just this (warranty clarification), i am convinced that it could have been achieved in more positive manner than what we had to go through...

    that is all

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    That is entirely untrue. SPV shocks can be turned to tune out bob, and other certain ones will drastically reduce it to levels so small that you feel like you are acellerating on a hardtail(romic). There is also the specialized/fox intertia valve which does a very good job of keeping the suspension from not bobbing at all. There are also FS designs that by nature of their design, do not bob. There are yet others that bob fairly minimally, and so forth. There is a very wide spectrum, and while MOST FS bikes bob, it is entirely not true. Because the shock is higher than the linkage on the NRS, when you pedal it tries to extend the shock, the proper wayto set up an NRS is with no sag. With no sag it can not physically extend, since it can't extend, it will have no bob. The tradeoff is that it rides much harsher than most bikes due to being effecively "oversprung". Tony's ICT farce is not the end of the world in terms of suspension nor efficiancy. It works well because it is an FSR bike. I like FSRs and I ride several of them actually. They aren't marketly better than some other designs except for the braking department, where they have a clear advantage over most everything else when designed correctly.
    please read Mountain Bike Action (December 2003) issue that features 2004 Truth...

    SPV will reduce bob to minimum, but will not entirely eliminate it (when standing and pedaling)...that is what reviewer found out and unless you say they are all bunch of yahoos and liars, you cant ignore it.

    since ICT is essentially FSR as you say, FSR will bob as well..

    i paired up F100X with inertia valve and also 5th element on my Truth and i am hoping that this will help almost eliminating bob.

    but dont kid yourself thinking that any FS will ever feel like hardtail except if you lock out shock and fork...

    again, we may agree to disagree, no need to take this topic to infinity...

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    [QUOTE=steve3]
    Quote Originally Posted by
    if this board wanted to achieve just this (warranty clarification), i am convinced that it could have been achieved in more positive manner than what we had to go through...

    that is all[/QUOTE


    Wait, you were the one that turned it negative. You decided to post out of nowhere in the middle of the night about a week or so ago and you attacked me, as well as Pete and now you say it unfortuantely turned negative? Do you smoke crack? You must because your view of reality is quite skewed.
    time for you to go to bed kiddo.

    you are spitting on the screen while talking...

    i am busy talking with someone that has something to say... good night...

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Halfway saved up for it. Is this designed to stray off topic, like osokolo did?

    I think he can no longer back up the issue of the lack of ethics, like the altered magazine reviews and the fact that he bought into the "tradition" and "reputation" of EW and there reall isn't anything like that behind it.
    No, but I know you would rather be thinking about more enjoyable things than arguing this stupid thread. For me, the Truth just rides better than most bikes and that is the most important thing. Of course if it breaks and I'm not riding because Ell. screws me then I would be pissed too!

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    so let me then try to understand this better...

    if TE was a supernice guy like, say, bill gates, and if he never stated things that you disliked etc... would his bikes be any different? any better maybe?
    I was looking for a freeride bike a little over a year ago, i saw a review for feeride bikes on mountain bike's website then I looked on tony's website and saw the same review, not just misquoted, but it came to entirely different conclusions. When I called tony on this, he went back, changed his website, then went and said that I was a LIAR.

    Tony said comletely rediculous things about warrentys and his bikes, their capabilities, and so on.

    It isn't a matter of tony being a nice guy or not, he's a pathalogical liar and at this point with the above reasons(and others that take way too much room to list) any thing that comes out of his marketing or otherwise that seems to be a half-truth, is regarded by me to be completely negative and a further example of how tony thinks and does business. I don't give a damn about his bikes, I don't particularly like them, but I don't particularly hate them either(except for the joker, way too slack with a moderate-travel fork, but this was one of the earliest ones). Most of them are solid FSR bikes. In any case, it is completely not about the bike here, it is about the man behind the bikes, and for several reasons, he's shown himself to be no higher on the evolutionary chain than pond scum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    the mother isn't selling her child on a market which is governed by laws. Tony is. He's accountable for every word he says in reference to his product. That's not only to protect the consumer, but it's to protect the competition and keep it healthy. Poor example and you are trying to find excuses in any which way you can.

    What if every prescription drug manufacturer used the "my child is the prettiest theory" that you say Tony uses?
    which planet do you live on?

    that is exactly what every drug manufacturer is doing...

    tylenol is the best, no advil is the best, tylenol lasts twice longer than advil, no advil lasts five times longer than tylenol...

    sigh, go to bed kid...
    Last edited by osokolo; 02-19-2004 at 10:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    please read Mountain Bike Action (December 2003) issue that features 2004 Truth...

    SPV will reduce bob to minimum, but will not entirely eliminate it (when standing and pedaling)...that is what reviewer found out and unless you say they are all bunch of yahoos and liars, you cant ignore it.

    since ICT is essentially FSR as you say, FSR will bob as well..

    i paired up F100X with inertia valve and also 5th element on my Truth and i am hoping that this will help almost eliminating bob.

    but dont kid yourself thinking that any FS will ever feel like hardtail except if you lock out shock and fork...

    again, we may agree to disagree, no need to take this topic to infinity...
    I never said that FSR or ICT didn't bob, they very much do. Not only that, but SPV can be tuned to not bob, the ride may suck, but you can tune it that high if you want. Almost no one does it. And the NRS is a no-bobbing design, it will feel like a hardtail pedaling, it's that simple. There are a lot of designs that claim to be the best-pedaling ever, but the NRS is one that doesn't bob.

    Oh yeah, and if you read mountain bike fiction, you'd also know of the occurance where the seatstay of the MBA Id broke, and tony claimed that it was the only one to ever do that. Not only does this contradict what tony said a few days back about "there were no flaws with the original seatstays, we just changed them for the canti mounts or whatever", but someone wrote MBA saying that they had the exact same problem, and that ellsworth knew of this, so he LIED (again) to MBA when he claimed their Id was the ony one ever to have a chainstay problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    I was looking for a freeride bike a little over a year ago, i saw a review for feeride bikes on mountain bike's website then I looked on tony's website and saw the same review, not just misquoted, but it came to entirely different conclusions. When I called tony on this, he went back, changed his website, then went and said that I was a LIAR.

    Tony said comletely rediculous things about warrentys and his bikes, their capabilities, and so on.

    It isn't a matter of tony being a nice guy or not, he's a pathalogical liar and at this point with the above reasons(and others that take way too much room to list) any thing that comes out of his marketing or otherwise that seems to be a half-truth, is regarded by me to be completely negative and a further example of how tony thinks and does business. I don't give a damn about his bikes, I don't particularly like them, but I don't particularly hate them either(except for the joker, way too slack with a moderate-travel fork, but this was one of the earliest ones). Most of them are solid FSR bikes. In any case, it is completely not about the bike here, it is about the man behind the bikes, and for several reasons, he's shown himself to be no higher on the evolutionary chain than pond scum.
    i mentioned bill gates for a reason. and i called him "supernice" guy...

    why is bill gates better than TE? did you stop buying microsoft products? why not?

    i am not trying to digress here, i think that TE has been discussed to death and i dont think that any new details will emerge...

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    Seriously, I can go all day and night with this. I'm not having a hard time doing this. The fact is that Tony Ellsworth has been found out, for faulty and illegal warrenty processes, for lying several times, for a whole plethora of despicable things. It's not like I am scrounging to come up with this stuff, it is what I have observed, both personally and from the sidelines. Like I said, when Tony said that I was a liar when I pointed out that he misqouted the review, it completely blew my mind. I don't care if you believe him or me here, but you admit that I am justified in my thoughts if that is indeed what happened.

    Enjoy your ellsworth bikes. Beware of tony ellsworth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricko
    This has just been a smear campaign orchistrated by a small handful of disgruntled riders is all. Read any MFRs warranty and they're all full of outs and ambiguous statements.
    That's just as silly as many of Steve's comments.

    "smear campaign"? Since when has the truth been considered a smear campaign?

    Sure, read any warranty and there are outs, like abuse, normal wear and tear, etc.

    I haven't seen ANY other bike warranties that indicate that the consumer has to pay for a manufacturing /design defect just because the manufacturer decides that there has been a model change, despite the fact that the latest model goes by the same name, and has had the aforementioned design defects fixed.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    i mentioned bill gates for a reason. and i called him "supernice" guy...

    why is bill gates better than TE? did you stop buying microsoft products? why not?

    i am not trying to digress here, i think that TE has been discussed to death and i dont think that any new details will emerge...

    Bill Gates gives a lot of money to charity and other things that benefit communities and such. With as much money as he has it is probably not a huge deal, but it sure beats just sitting on all of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Bill Gates gives a lot of money to charity and other things that benefit communities and such. With as much money as he has it is probably not a huge deal, but it sure beats just sitting on all of it.
    aha, i was waiting for something like this...

    so one can be a thug but if one gives money to charity, one is not a thug...

    JM, i will chalk this one up to me... you lost this one...

    agree?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Seriously, I can go all day and night with this. I'm not having a hard time doing this. The fact is that Tony Ellsworth has been found out, for faulty and illegal warrenty processes, for lying several times, for a whole plethora of despicable things. It's not like I am scrounging to come up with this stuff, it is what I have observed, both personally and from the sidelines. Like I said, when Tony said that I was a liar when I pointed out that he misqouted the review, it completely blew my mind. I don't care if you believe him or me here, but you admit that I am justified in my thoughts if that is indeed what happened.

    Enjoy your ellsworth bikes. Beware of tony ellsworth.
    i am sure it is clear to you that i appreciate your standing on this.you obviously have strong feelings because you have direct experience with the issue. and that is fine. maybe i would feel the same if what happened to you happened to me...

    but until it happens, i will trully try to enjoy the bike as much as i can... it does feel better when i know all this stuff.

    it was good talking with you...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    I never said that FSR or ICT didn't bob, they very much do. Not only that, but SPV can be tuned to not bob, the ride may suck, but you can tune it that high if you want. Almost no one does it. And the NRS is a no-bobbing design, it will feel like a hardtail pedaling, it's that simple. There are a lot of designs that claim to be the best-pedaling ever, but the NRS is one that doesn't bob.

    Oh yeah, and if you read mountain bike fiction, you'd also know of the occurance where the seatstay of the MBA Id broke, and tony claimed that it was the only one to ever do that. Not only does this contradict what tony said a few days back about "there were no flaws with the original seatstays, we just changed them for the canti mounts or whatever", but someone wrote MBA saying that they had the exact same problem, and that ellsworth knew of this, so he LIED (again) to MBA when he claimed their Id was the ony one ever to have a chainstay problem.
    yeah, i read that too...

    then i owe it to myself to ride FSR bike and compare it to my Truth...

    what would be a direct competition to Truth on the FSR side? enduro?

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    it'd be great if other companies could come up with something that is even better than ICT, because the ICT technology is currently the best anti-bob technology offered out there... so there are good, very good tips that others could learn from Ellsworth.
    Holy crap. Talk about a serious case of blind brand loyalty coupled with an intense case of believing a bunch of marketing pap.

    Here's anewsflash for you:

    People who have ridden a number of flavors of four bar bikes feel at the least no difference between ICT bikes and four bar bikes and at best feel that tother four bar bikes bob less than ICT bikes.

    Heck, if you are interested in believing someone whom you apparently idolize, perhaps you should read what Tony Ellsworth has to say about "his" own suspension design (since we all know ICT is marketing speak):

    Why are lock out rear shocks pointless?
    Lock-outs rear shocks are Band-Aids for imperfect designs. Our ICT and ATLAS patented designs are super efficient and eliminate nearly all pedal induced bobbing and jacking. What you are left with is a comfortable and efficient climbing bike. One with fully active suspension that is always finding you better traction even during the hardest hammering or braking.

    When you lock out a rear shock, you add unwanted load to the mounting hardware, frame and yourself. The need for lock outs was created as a marketing tool for companies with imperfect suspension or shock designs. Don't be fooled. If it works, you don't need to turn it off!


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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    yeah, i read that too...

    then i owe it to myself to ride FSR bike and compare it to my Truth...

    what would be a direct competition to Truth on the FSR side? enduro?
    Don't compare an FSR that doesn't have a romic, with an ellsworth that has a romic shock, I find the difference, even on an FSR bike, to be drastic. I'd say compare similer travel bikes with similer shocks, air shock, or romic coil....

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    this is my first Ellsworth

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    Holy crap. Talk about a serious case of blind brand loyalty coupled with an intense case of believing a bunch of marketing pap.

    Here's anewsflash for you:

    People who have ridden a number of flavors of four bar bikes feel at the least no difference between ICT bikes and four bar bikes and at best feel that tother four bar bikes bob less than ICT bikes.

    Heck, if you are interested in believing someone whom you apparently idolize, perhaps you should read what Tony Ellsworth has to say about "his" own suspension design (since we all know ICT is marketing speak):

    Why are lock out rear shocks pointless?
    Lock-outs rear shocks are Band-Aids for imperfect designs. Our ICT and ATLAS patented designs are super efficient and eliminate nearly all pedal induced bobbing and jacking. What you are left with is a comfortable and efficient climbing bike. One with fully active suspension that is always finding you better traction even during the hardest hammering or braking.

    When you lock out a rear shock, you add unwanted load to the mounting hardware, frame and yourself. The need for lock outs was created as a marketing tool for companies with imperfect suspension or shock designs. Don't be fooled. If it works, you don't need to turn it off!

    what brand loyalty are you talking about?

    Audi loyalty? yes, this is my second Audi and 7th year of happy ownership.

    but with bikes it doesnt work that way. nor i idealize TE. relax.

    i know where the shortcomings are and i know what other options were. when i draw the line and did the math, the Truth was the winner. only time will show if my math was correct. and you dont know that better than i, since only i will know how much fun i will have with this bike... so lets give it a chance and some time and i will tell you the result...

    how does that sound?

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Don't compare an FSR that doesn't have a romic, with an ellsworth that has a romic shock, I find the difference, even on an FSR bike, to be drastic. I'd say compare similer travel bikes with similer shocks, air shock, or romic coil....
    well, you said FSR doesnt bob by design. are you retracting from the statement?

    if it doesnt bob by design, the shock is irrelevant...

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    well, you said FSR doesnt bob by design. are you retracting from the statement?

    if it doesnt bob by design, the shock is irrelevant...
    I probably said that they pedal very well and use chain torque designed in to do so, if I said that they don't bob I didn't mean to say so, however due to the top-out design of the NRS, it is technically an FSR that doesn't bob, but it is sort of in it's own class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    I probably said that they pedal very well and use chain torque designed in to do so, if I said that they don't bob I didn't mean to say so, however due to the top-out design of the NRS, it is technically an FSR that doesn't bob, but it is sort of in it's own class.
    yes, that sounds realistic now. thank you.

    cant wait to hit the trails...

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo

    how does that sound?
    It sounds like a cop out.

    And the blind brand loyalty that I was referring to doesn't have anything to do with Audis.

    But you already knew that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    It sounds like a cop out.

    And the blind brand loyalty that I was referring to doesn't have anything to do with Audis.

    But you already knew that.
    of course i knew that.

    buy how can you call this "brand loyalty" if this is my first Ellsworth and i just got it...

    i thought brand loyalty would require years of ownership and few bikes by the same brand...

    i cant even say i am loyal to Audi brand. i wouldnt buy it just for the fact it is Audi... if some other manufacturer comes out with something better for less money, i'll be the first in line...

    but i guess this is irrelevant to what the real issue is. i said it before, i dont disagree with you and your experience with Ells. i cant even argue your feelings towards Ells. i cant say Ells is the best bike out there because to say that, one would have to extensively ride every bike out there and then compare them all adn even that would be extremely subjective comparison...

    i dont know TE nor he is my god.

    the only problem i had was with few posters that were going out of their way to spread the crap around to the point it was ridiculous. i felt that i had to take a different stand and i did it...

    did it help resolve the issue, i dont think so. that needs to be initiated by TE, i agree with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    you apparently know nothing about law then...
    what law school did you attend, osokolo?

    what state bars do you belong to?

    how about federal courts? which ones have admitted you to practice?

    shut your piehole about law, you cretin. you wouldn't know how to practice law if you were a lawyer, much less a non-lawyer.

    every law does NOT have a "hole"

    aoibfjliashdgoihowiehf ... that's how your "legal analysis" reads

    now go home, please.

    thanks.

    PS - I'm admitted in MT, MD, NJ and the Federal Courts of all 3 states. so shut up already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    truth is fun and that is all i need.
    judging by the frequency of your posts re Ellsworth, it seems you need MUCH more than just the "fun" of your bike. seems you also need to convince yourself and others that it is the "dream machine" you spent your whole life aiming toward.

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    nah, you know all the answers...

    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike
    what law school did you attend, osokolo?

    what state bars do you belong to?

    how about federal courts? which ones have admitted you to practice?

    shut your piehole about law, you cretin. you wouldn't know how to practice law if you were a lawyer, much less a non-lawyer.

    every law does NOT have a "hole"

    aoibfjliashdgoihowiehf ... that's how your "legal analysis" reads

    now go home, please.

    thanks.

    PS - I'm admitted in MT, MD, NJ and the Federal Courts of all 3 states. so shut up already.
    i dont know why you asked these questions. just being rhetorical i guess...

    i know crap about law, i only see what is happening in courts. if one has enough money and connections, there is no law that can not be beaten. remember O.J.

    the fact that you are admitted in all these courts still doesnt make your brain bigger than the average peanut. i am sure i am not the first one to have noticed that... mr. gonzo...

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    i still didnt post nearly as many

    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike
    judging by the frequency of your posts re Ellsworth, it seems you need MUCH more than just the "fun" of your bike. seems you also need to convince yourself and others that it is the "dream machine" you spent your whole life aiming toward.
    posts as steve3 did, and yet i bother you and steve3 doesnt...

    Truth is one of the bikes that i will be using this season. My other bikes may equally be as fun as Truth. i'll let you know if it is fun when i start riding it. until then, it is all just speculation... dont feel the need to convince anyone on anything.

    biking is only one of the sports that i am involved in. i do enjoy it immensely though, mr. gonzo...

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    i still think that ICT is the best technology

    [QUOTE=steve3]
    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo

    but i guess this is irrelevant to what the real issue is. i said it before, i dont disagree with you and your experience with Ells. i cant even argue your feelings towards Ells. i cant say Ells is the best bike out there because to say that, one would have to extensively ride every bike out there and then compare them all adn even that would be extremely subjective comparison...

    i dont know TE nor he is my god.

    the only problem i had was with few posters that were going out of their way to spread the crap around to the point it was ridiculous. i felt that i had to take a different stand and i did it...

    did it help resolve the issue, i dont think so. that needs to be initiated by TE, i agree with that.[/QUOTE



    You said in your quote that you can't say EW is the best bike, but earlier this was your exact statement:
    "it'd be great if other companies could come up with something that is even better than ICT, because the ICT technology is currently the best anti-bob technology offered out there... so there are good, very good tips that others could learn from Ellsworth."

    You clearly said ICT is the best and one can derive correctly that the best technology makes the best bike in your opinion. Ahhhhh, osokolo, you can't even face the facts. You're poorly defending the company you should not feel obligated to do. The only ones that can defend themselves against the attacks and the accusations are EW and his employees. Not riders. Some riders are happy and that doesn't lend anything to the issues of the poor treatment and illegal business dealings by him.
    but the best susspension technology does not necessarilly and solely provide for the best bike designation.

    some other manufacturer could actually have better frame technology but poorer suspension etc. i am sure if you for a moment forget your personal issues, you will know what i mean.

    so what i said previoudly still stands and is reasonable i think.

    now if i may suggest, why dont you try to be constructive and leave me out of your thoughts and lines. i will myself try to do it as well. i will even start it first with this post.

    i addressed your questions and left out any disrespect or insults.

    do we have a deal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    So, EW has poorer frame tech and better suspension technology, by your statement?
    nope, that is what you said. i didnt say that.

    obviously i think that the Truth for me is one of the best bikes around. Otherwise i wouldnt have purchased it...

    Next, if ICT is so good, why is everyone going out of their way to license FSR and not ICT? I'm sure Tony would love to sell his design, but everyone seems to be targeting the FSR/ Horst link for their designs. Even in Europe and Asia where the patent laws aren't going to extend for EW, people are using the FSR design.
    to each his own. i am sure FSR design is very good. i just didnt like frames that it was offered with... choices are good. the more, the better...

    [/QUOTE]And your last statement about leaving out any insults or disrespect means that you were previously so, when you claimed you weren't.[/QUOTE]

    no more and no less than you.

    you still didnt say you were accepting my offer...

  101. #101
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    dont give yourself that much credit kiddo...

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    The point here is Ellsworth pissed off a lot of people and made a reputation for himself. We're a community of bikers that questioned the issues of his business practices. Can we benefit from it? Absolutely. How? Well, the potential always exists for other companies to exploit the consumers when they see how some of us will just buy anything and admittedly will like the questionable policies of a questionable man. I've been checking usernames viewing these threads periodically and I've seen names belonging to people in the industry viewing. They are watching and they are seeing how a community can get together to protest unfair treatment and illegal business practices. The result is what we're seeing happening to Tony right now. Other companies are learning on how not to deal with customers via Tony's experience. he has given everyone else in the industry clear examples of how to properly run their business by showing how poorly he runs his. This could help make others more honest, or more caring of the consumer. The consumer will get better products and better service that ALL, not some of them deserve. Also, the "stolen" sales that EW got from the dubious warranty will end. Of course, osokolo would've bought his bike without a warranty for the amazing price of $1,995.

    This issue has snowballed since he made his bizarre and false statements. The situation at hand is the culmination of years worth of damage Tony has been doing to himself for years. Osokolo, this was all done without lawyers. Do you think Tony would've changed his business policies if you called up one of your 10 times per day and asked him to? He would've told you to go F yourself and hang up on you. The board initiated change. Would many people buy an EW? Some would, more wouldn't because the man is questionable and bizarre

    This is a major accomplishment for the consumer and can only make the bike industry better. No more "stolen" sales.
    and please tell me what is significantly different now in EW warranty, that you claim this forum changed?

    dont forget that i am not the only member that didnt agree with damions campaign that you joined in.

    ellsworth will sell his bicycles whether you like it or not... i really think that this thread didnt put a dent in the EW sales... that is just my opinion... we will never know, only speculate on that... because we simply dont know the numbers...

  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    and please tell me what is significantly different now in EW warranty, that you claim this forum changed?

    dont forget that i am not the only member that didnt agree with damions campaign that you joined in.

    ellsworth will sell his bicycles whether you like it or not... i really think that this thread didnt put a dent in the EW sales... that is just my opinion... we will never know, only speculate on that... because we simply dont know the numbers...
    From the new 2004 warrenty that has suddenly appeard on his website within the last few days;

    Two (2) year limited warranty period on all frames.

    Warranty: This non-transferable warranty grants the original owner the right to repair or replacement of the frame with like technology, model and color without charge within the two year warranty period.
    This credit is towards like product only and has no monetary value. Ellsworth does not guaranty or warrant that it will continue to manufacture or sell the same type of frame that you purchased.
    That pretty much clears up the illegal stuff he was doing with the current warrenty, but it doesn't help those who have older ellsworth bikes with the older warrenty, I don't think it is legal to change the warrenty to something less-restrictive, but in it's present form it is still illegal.

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    I have copies of the two Warranties right here in front of me.

    They have definetley changed. Obviously because of this board. The timing of the change can not be ignored. If he was alreday planning on changing the warranty, it would have been changed in January, not February.
    The changes are:
    2 year warranty. with no charge within that period.
    30 day warranty on the frame alaignment. (Way NEW)
    and may other changes. Read them yourself.

    I wonder if the "hardware" listed as wear items in the exclusions is talking about the rockers? He may still charge for those bits, hard to tell.

    Overall, and improvement, but still open for interpretation.

    Do you think that Ellsworth is going to direct the shops selling them to stop using "lifetime" warranty as a selling point?

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    what is open for interpretation

    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    They have definetley changed. Obviously because of this board. The timing of the change can not be ignored. If he was alreday planning on changing the warranty, it would have been changed in January, not February.
    The changes are:
    2 year warranty. with no charge within that period.
    30 day warranty on the frame alaignment. (Way NEW)
    and may other changes. Read them yourself.

    I wonder if the "hardware" listed as wear items in the exclusions is talking about the rockers? He may still charge for those bits, hard to tell.

    Overall, and improvement, but still open for interpretation.

    Do you think that Ellsworth is going to direct the shops selling them to stop using "lifetime" warranty as a selling point?
    in this warranty?

    can you be more specific please?

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    You mean in the new warranty?

    Here is what I see as open statements, correct me if I am wrong.
    1. Warranty: This non-transferable warranty grants the original owner the right to repair or replacement of the frame with like-technology, model, and color without charge within the two year period. This credit is towards like product only and has no monitary value. Ellsworth does not guarantee or warrant that it will continue to manufacture or sell the same type of frame that you purchased.
    Does this mean that they do not have to stock replacement frames/parts that will work with each other?
    2. After the two year warranty period has expired, replacement and maintenance parts for the service and upkeep of the original of the original frame will be offered to the frame owner for the replacement parts surrendered.
    Does this mean that if the rockers are not holding the bearings tightly after two years, they will replace them for the rockers surrendered?
    3. Exclusions: Alaignment after 30 days of the original purchase.
    Does this mean the Ellsworth is recommending that new owners have the alaignment checked prior to building it up, or what? The alaignment may be off slightly, and an owner buys a frame, and sits on it for a few weeks prior to building it is SOL.
    4. Exclusions: All wear items, to include bearings, bushings, shocks, der. hangars, hardware, and normal wear items or itwems that do not transfer to new technology replacement frames.
    Does this include the rockers, as wear items, if they will not work with the new frame? sounds like it does, so an end user will pay for replacement rockers, because they do not work with the warrantied frame.

    Just a few of the points in the 2004 warranty that make me raise my eyebrows. The other stuff in the warranty can be found in almost any other warranty. It is close.

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    thank you for your analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    Here is what I see as open statements, correct me if I am wrong.
    1. Warranty: This non-transferable warranty grants the original owner the right to repair or replacement of the frame with like-technology, model, and color without charge within the two year period. This credit is towards like product only and has no monitary value. Ellsworth does not guarantee or warrant that it will continue to manufacture or sell the same type of frame that you purchased.
    Does this mean that they do not have to stock replacement frames/parts that will work with each other?
    2. After the two year warranty period has expired, replacement and maintenance parts for the service and upkeep of the original of the original frame will be offered to the frame owner for the replacement parts surrendered.
    Does this mean that if the rockers are not holding the bearings tightly after two years, they will replace them for the rockers surrendered?
    3. Exclusions: Alaignment after 30 days of the original purchase.
    Does this mean the Ellsworth is recommending that new owners have the alaignment checked prior to building it up, or what? The alaignment may be off slightly, and an owner buys a frame, and sits on it for a few weeks prior to building it is SOL.
    4. Exclusions: All wear items, to include bearings, bushings, shocks, der. hangars, hardware, and normal wear items or itwems that do not transfer to new technology replacement frames.
    Does this include the rockers, as wear items, if they will not work with the new frame? sounds like it does, so an end user will pay for replacement rockers, because they do not work with the warrantied frame.

    Just a few of the points in the 2004 warranty that make me raise my eyebrows. The other stuff in the warranty can be found in almost any other warranty. It is close.
    you are raising valid questions.

    but let me ask you something: all your questions are based on the premise that Ellsworth wants to screw it's customers thus creating little ambiguities in it's warranty. why do you think that out of 2 possibilities, Ells will opt to go with the one that screws the customer? maybe your first point will be resolved in the way that if the frame is not manufactured anymore and there are no replacement parts, the customer will get the all new frame design free of charge?

    for your item #2, i agree with you. is customer going to get pro-rated charge for the replacement part providing the bad one is returned? that is how i read it, but i think it may be clarified. i would not be too worried with what happens after 2 years period as the failure will most likely be not related to manufacturing defect...

    i guess the key thing that i am talking about is, i dont think Ells is out to screw it's customers. i do believe that they will do everything they can to make their customers happy. now, i am convinced that there will always be people that will not be happy no matter what Ells does for them...

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    of course i knew that.

    buy how can you call this "brand loyalty" if this is my first Ellsworth and i just got it...
    I call it blind brand loyalty based upon your replies.

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    so be it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    I call it blind brand loyalty based upon your replies.
    i stated my case and you delivered your verdict. fair enough.

    the earth is still rotating around the sun...

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    Oso, I am sure you are happy.

    If anything, print these posts for the future, if needed. I have to say, the warranty is way better than it was, just a few small possibilities for interpretation. I do not think that Ellsworth is out to screw all of their customers, but the past issues and the odd replies that Tony has posted himself can not be ignored.
    I am sure that if I had a Truth, and had no issues, I would feel like you do. Personally, I work for a large bike shop, and am only trying to keep myself (and others) as educated as possible on the subject.





    Enjoy the ride, and keep your eyes on the trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    If anything, print these posts for the future, if needed. I have to say, the warranty is way better than it was, just a few small possibilities for interpretation. I do not think that Ellsworth is out to screw all of their customers, but the past issues and the odd replies that Tony has posted himself can not be ignored.
    I am sure that if I had a Truth, and had no issues, I would feel like you do. Personally, I work for a large bike shop, and am only trying to keep myself (and others) as educated as possible on the subject.





    Enjoy the ride, and keep your eyes on the trail.
    damion, i do appreciate your input, it has been very constructive in the last few posts. although i was questioning your intentions at the begining, i have come to appreciate your concerns. i am convinced that the way you discussed the issue today will help us get what most of us think is fair from bike manufacturers, including Ells. and maybe starting with Ells, why not.

    thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Osokolo, the earth revolves around the sun and rotates about its own axis. The earth does not rotate around the sun.
    yes, steve3, thank you.

    i realized that while i was in the gym. point taken.

    because english is my second language, i didnt want to correct other people's spelling errors that i am sure you have noticed too. i know that my english is not as good as yours. But remember, you dont speak my native language at all. so dont look down on people that dont spell correct or dont use proper nouns.

    in your case i'd rather remain silent and be deemed a fool than open the mouth and remove any doubts...

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    more nonsense. that didn't make any sense, nor was it connected to the post to which you TRIED to reply.

    size of brain is irrelevant. mine works just fine, though. thanks for being mistaken.

    I really don't think you want to compare intellects to anyone in MTBR, but if that's your preference, I am sure there are many willing to show you just how inferior is your ferretted mind. I can't be bothered, lesser cretins are too easy.

    I notice you now are playing the "nyaah nyaaah sticks and stones" game of illogical nonsequiturs.

    that inner sense of defeat must be awfully nagging.

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    Yeah, I may throw a couple of digs now and then,

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    damion, i do appreciate your input, it has been very constructive in the last few posts. although i was questioning your intentions at the begining, i have come to appreciate your concerns. i am convinced that the way you discussed the issue today will help us get what most of us think is fair from bike manufacturers, including Ells. and maybe starting with Ells, why not.

    thank you.
    but I feel that my intentions are sound. I really mean it when I say enjoy the bike, I still think the craftsmanship is out of this world. I hope that you do not have any warranty issues. But if you do, at least you have the info regarding USA manufacturing laws and what not. Enjoy the trails.

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    actually i agree wity you...

    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike
    more nonsense. that didn't make any sense, nor was it connected to the post to which you TRIED to reply.

    size of brain is irrelevant. mine works just fine, though. thanks for being mistaken.

    I really don't think you want to compare intellects to anyone in MTBR, but if that's your preference, I am sure there are many willing to show you just how inferior is your ferretted mind. I can't be bothered, lesser cretins are too easy.

    I notice you now are playing the "nyaah nyaaah sticks and stones" game of illogical nonsequiturs.

    that inner sense of defeat must be awfully nagging.
    for the size of your brain, it works pretty welll

    as you said "... more nonsense that didn't make any sense..."

    hehe, my dear lawyer... cant exactly say you will one day become Johnny Cochrane... sorry...

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    Hold it, now.

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    for the size of your brain, it works pretty welll

    as you said "... more nonsense that didn't make any sense..."

    hehe, my dear lawyer... cant exactly say you will one day become Johnny Cochrane... sorry...
    I have read some of Gonzostrike's posts, and he has a fairly level head on his shoulders. Lets, lay off of the insults, all of you, and keep it even. Keep this type of stuff up, and you will see what I meant about changing your handle. Lets keep it civil, at least.

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    i am all for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    I have read some of Gonzostrike's posts, and he has a fairly level head on his shoulders. Lets, lay off of the insults, all of you, and keep it even. Keep this type of stuff up, and you will see what I meant about changing your handle. Lets keep it civil, at least.
    and i will even apologize for my share of nonsense...

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    kiddo, is that you that Pete called "goofball"

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Great. Now that we're back to the issues, how does osokolo feel about the wronged customers of EW. Earier, he implied that the bikes broke because the riders rode them into a tree. Next, speculate on why he has major CS issues. You speculated on the "my child is the most beautiful" thing. Since there seems to be more sincerity to you now, why does Tony have a bad rep and did you know about this when you bought the bike? You said you bought into EW for the tradition.
    hey, if he doesnt like you , why would i.

    go seek medical treatment. you are still young and there is a chance ...

    minimal, but still a chance...

  118. #118
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    ok kiddo, feel better now?

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    That he did and I can't excuse my own behavior on the board. So his opinion is justified. Your devided and conquer tactics still aren't removing you from the position you put yourself in as Ellsworth's representative and defender.

    I'm sure Tony is overjoyed by the lame support you gave him which only kept the thread at the top, further hurting him. I'm sure if he could shut you up himself, he would. Unfortunately in you world of dillusion, Tony and you are hanging out on a great ride together on your EW bikes with "people you like". Maybe you'd even get a chance to ride off road for the first time, osokolo. Your bike looks a little too clean to be an off roader's bike. I think you cruise the beach with it.
    please dont get too concerned about this stuff. i live in Canada, FYI...

    go away now... really

  119. #119
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    nah, i have TREK 5900 for my road practice and rides..

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    sure, Canada doesn't have clean sidewalks you can pilot your bike through? I see it all the time. Expensive full susser with top end components that doesn't see any dirt time.

    Your Truth must be the best road bike you've ever ridden.
    Canada was mentioned with regards to your insinuation that i ride together with TE.

    My Truth is less than one month old kid. it didnt see any trails yet. but it surely will. soon.

    thanks for asking.

    enjoy the pic... again
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    tsk, tsk, tsk... kiddo, i told you

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    I don't understand why you keep posting up the pic of your Truth road bike.
    this is my road bike:
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    and here are your answers kiddo:

    [QUOTE=steve3]I don't understand why you keep posting up the pic of your Truth road bike. I think when you bought an EW, you bought into the reputation and tradition, as you stated. It very clearly looks like you bought into this nouveau rich image thing when you bought it. You wanted to be better than everyone else out on the road and be able to tell them that you bike cost $1,995 without a warranty and before you started buying the parts.[/QUOTE}

    i dont know what you are talking about... my bike came with 2003 warranty and i am very happy about it. if i ever have problems with my frame i will either have it replaced by Ellsworth or i will gladly pay pro-rated cost of upgraded replacement parts. you must be very uninformed to state that my bike doesnt have warranty. unlike your broken Tomac, my bike is backed by company that i dont have reason not to rely on.


    Obviously, you're defending Tony so much because you're really defending yourself. You have no image without this bike and you probably are all about the image, trying to project yourself as wealthy so you can feel some validation for your pitiful and hollow existence.
    let me see....

    1984 Winter Olympics, Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina. member of the 4 man (former) Yugoslavia national bobsled team (finished 23rd)

    1992 Winter Olympics, Albertville, France, member of the 2 man and 4 man (former) Yugoslavia national bobsled team (finished 27th and 20-something i believe)

    1998 Winter Olympics, Nagano, Japan, member of the 4 man Bosnia and Herzegovina national bobsled team (finished 31st)

    and countles World Cups and European and World Championships competing in bobsled.

    you really think i need a bike for image?


    Meanwhile, you tell us about your Truth road bike and how we should all hit the trails and ride and all this nonsense, but why are you waiting a month to take the Truth out? Seems plenty fine to ride, if you really wanted to. After all, you did say we should all ride, so how can you give us advice to ride when you're not?
    i dont like offroading in snow. i ride my winter bike twice a week at least outdoors and almost every day indoors (see picture of the bike on the trainer). how about you?

    Did Tony send you a shirt yet? or did he tell you to shut the F up because he doesn't want people to think that the typical customer is as dumb as you, osokolo? Maybe he voided your warranty on the grounds that you're a complete tool? Why don't you make your 509743503745th call of today to hear his voice???
    i buy my own wardrobe son. i bought my frame from Tony. get your facts straight.

    and the warranty is limited lifetime on my frame. much, much better than on yoru Tomac. i am sure you agree with me, deeply inside your dark soul...

    cheers...

  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    I wonder why you keep saying pro rating because pro rating or pro rata is a calculation method used to estimate how much life you used of whatever product is being replaced versus how much you paid. They divide the price by the months and other criteria and the remaining amount becames what they apply to the replacement. This is used for car batteries and tires after the free replacement period ends

    Ellsworth DOES NOT PRO RATE bikes. Pro rating bikes would imply that the bike is disposable and gets worn out, much like what you say, but against Tony's own statement of how the bikes will last a lifetime.

    They simply charge you dealer prices so he profits twice off of you and you will happily pay it.
    becasue the warranty card says "pro-rated". it is your speculation that Ellsworth charges dealer prices for warranty replacement parts/frames.

    but now that the warranty is changing, why would you worry about this? it will be 2 years free of charge warranty, end of the story.

  123. #123
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    Stop. Arguing.

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    You guys need mediation therapy

    This is response is addressed to Mr. Ellsworth as much as it is everyone else viewing this forum. I will try to be balanced in my response.

    Firstly let me start with, I own a Giant NRS which proves three things right away:

    1. I am a little sad (yes, I admit it)
    2. I am totally unbiased
    3. I obviously know something about weak frames, bad warranty claims, poor service etc. etc. etc.

    Secondly, the roll-out quality of these frames has not (and should never) been questioned. Ellsworth bikes are a work of art and admired by many as some of the best handy-work in the biking community. I don't expect Giant would give me a lifetime warranty, but herein lies a problem. I didn't pay thousands of dollars just for a Giant frame..........

    This brings me to the third issue at hand. How much extra is a consumer paying for a "lifetime warranty" ? Other frames may be built to similar (not exact) standards but may be available for less money. Clearly this is a product positioning method employed to establish brand leadership amongst the biking community and it seems to be working gauging from the number of Ellsworth owners out there. The lifetime warranty is the product differentiation. Ellsworth helped make the niche, they have expanded the niche market and they must now defend it against competitors like Orange, Devinci, Balfa, Banshee etc. etc. and remember nobody stays in business by giving away free frames. Nobody wants to put a frame builder out of business.

    Fourth issue: Application. Nobody should be surprised if your frame builder tells you to get lost for taking turns with your mates in dropping off the garage roof and busting your frame. Let's get real fellas. No matter what you talk about in life, it's always the abusers that mess things up for the rest of us. If you know a warranty abuser and you say nothing, don't act shocked when the price of your beloved ID goes up the next year to pay for the misgivings of those rotten few. Independent frame builders have families and need to put food on the table too. There may be occasions when a geniune warranty claim is overlooked and I propose to solve this issue as follows:


    SOLUTION

    1. All Ellsworth frames be fitted with a sticker from the factory directing the new owner to view the company website and warranty policy.
    2. All frame registration cards have a warranty policy "check box" for the new owner to confirm that they have read and fully understand the comapny's warranty policy. This could also be done via the internet.
    3. Ellsworth could initiate a warranty replacement questionaire sheet to be completed and faxed back to Ellsworth prior to them issuing a Return Authorization Number. Such a questionaire should include owner information, date purchased, mods. added, usage details as well as an area for the owner to disclose any other information important for the processing of their warranty claim. The onus is now back and the owner to advise Ellsworth that he/she was just riding along minding their own business etc. etc. etc.
    4. Using this return questionaire, Ellsworth should be able to filter out most of the nuisance claims from legitimate greivances. This would make the administration of handling these legitimate greivances so much less complicated and dedicate resources to assisting these unfortunate consumers. The questionaire would provide signed documentated proof about the disgruntled owners and as to why their replacement demands will not be met. If consumers continue to voice half-truths, untruths, versions of the truth, libel, slander and the like in a forum such as this, they would open themselves to counter action.
    5. For those replacements where faulty workmanship is still unclear, outsource your handling of these cases to a third party administrator. This would be viewed as an independent assessment and would distance grievances from the decision making process. Again, the purpose is not to make legitimate consumers jump through hoops but to weed out the abusers.
    6. For those warranty claims that will be honoured, fix those parts quick and ship them out asap. A programme of this nature only works when you have buy in from both sides.

    Finally (I feel like this is a novel),

    Consumers will respect you when you say no, as long as you say it quickly and give reasons for your decision. Part of the problem as I see it, is that expectations have not been managed. If you intend to uphold your warranty commitment, you are going to have to ship those replacements same day, backed with a follow up call and survey to ensure consumer fulfillment.

    That's my 10 cents worth which is worth 15 cents up here in Canada.


    Daniel

  125. #125
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    test

    is this closed?

  126. #126
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    i swear it was closed yesterday...

    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    is this closed?
    i couldnt post yesterday...

    i guess it's not only me...

    sorry rich..

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    We the people ... smoke and fire

    where there is one...there's the other.

    Someone forwarded this thread to me. I'll be honest, I've never posted here before so bear with me. I've owned both a Joker and an ISIS. The ISIS is currently being retired and transformed into a trail bike for my son.

    My Joker was warrantied 5 times before I finally sold it. I absolutely loved that bike when it work. However, I never spoke to the same person twice and Ellsworth, and even though they did eventually stand behind their product, it was a very tough go. My biggest complaint with Ellsworth is the time it takes them to look at a product, realize its broke, and get off the dime and warranty it. I must've lost 3mo+ of riding since '98 to busted Jokers. If you wanna hear more about my riding or how it happened, I'll be glad to tell you, its just its a long story.

    I now ride a different 6" travel bike and am privy to some information regarding the actual reasons for Ellsworth failures. I won't reveal who, that's up to them to identify themselves, but a certain group of individuals knew what was going wrong with Ellsworths (frames) - a group located in the central valley (you know who you are), but lets just say at this point its a legal battle. End of story. My interest in this, is that I shared with them every break and consequent warranty I had with my Joker and they were able to explain in great detail why it happened. Ellsworth never, ever accepted responsibility--well I take that back, if honoring their warranty implies they took responsibility, then so be it. But they never said, "oh this part was mitered incorrectly" or "that's the 2 time your swing arm broke there, let us redesign that part for you and get it taken care of". Nope each time I was just relieved to have the warranty settled.

    There might me reference of this dispute somewhere on this board, but reading Mr. Ellsworth's thread really made me chuckle.

    Tony, you make a helluva product when its not broke. I'd still be on my Joker today, perhaps I would've even gotten the Id as a replacement for the ISIS. But you can't discredit people with the rule of 10...pfft...I'm calling shenanigans. Especially considering that 5 of my 5 reviews on mtbr of the Joker have been deleated.

    Smoke & fire.

  128. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by bingemtbr
    where there is one...there's the other.

    Someone forwarded this thread to me. I'll be honest, I've never posted here before so bear with me. I've owned both a Joker and an ISIS. The ISIS is currently being retired and transformed into a trail bike for my son.

    My Joker was warrantied 5 times before I finally sold it. I absolutely loved that bike when it work. However, I never spoke to the same person twice and Ellsworth, and even though they did eventually stand behind their product, it was a very tough go. My biggest complaint with Ellsworth is the time it takes them to look at a product, realize its broke, and get off the dime and warranty it. I must've lost 3mo+ of riding since '98 to busted Jokers. If you wanna hear more about my riding or how it happened, I'll be glad to tell you, its just its a long story.

    I now ride a different 6" travel bike and am privy to some information regarding the actual reasons for Ellsworth failures. I won't reveal who, that's up to them to identify themselves, but a certain group of individuals knew what was going wrong with Ellsworths (frames) - a group located in the central valley (you know who you are), but lets just say at this point its a legal battle. End of story. My interest in this, is that I shared with them every break and consequent warranty I had with my Joker and they were able to explain in great detail why it happened. Ellsworth never, ever accepted responsibility--well I take that back, if honoring their warranty implies they took responsibility, then so be it. But they never said, "oh this part was mitered incorrectly" or "that's the 2 time your swing arm broke there, let us redesign that part for you and get it taken care of". Nope each time I was just relieved to have the warranty settled.

    There might me reference of this dispute somewhere on this board, but reading Mr. Ellsworth's thread really made me chuckle.

    Tony, you make a helluva product when its not broke. I'd still be on my Joker today, perhaps I would've even gotten the Id as a replacement for the ISIS. But you can't discredit people with the rule of 10...pfft...I'm calling shenanigans. Especially considering that 5 of my 5 reviews on mtbr of the Joker have been deleated.

    Smoke & fire.
    Please PM me with the story, I'm dying to know

  129. #129

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    You think this is funny?

    Quote Originally Posted by bingemtbr
    where there is one...there's the other.

    Someone forwarded this thread to me. I'll be honest, I've never posted here before so bear with me. I've owned both a Joker and an ISIS. The ISIS is currently being retired and transformed into a trail bike for my son.

    My Joker was warrantied 5 times before I finally sold it. I absolutely loved that bike when it work. However, I never spoke to the same person twice and Ellsworth, and even though they did eventually stand behind their product, it was a very tough go. My biggest complaint with Ellsworth is the time it takes them to look at a product, realize its broke, and get off the dime and warranty it. I must've lost 3mo+ of riding since '98 to busted Jokers. If you wanna hear more about my riding or how it happened, I'll be glad to tell you, its just its a long story.

    I now ride a different 6" travel bike and am privy to some information regarding the actual reasons for Ellsworth failures. I won't reveal who, that's up to them to identify themselves, but a certain group of individuals knew what was going wrong with Ellsworths (frames) - a group located in the central valley (you know who you are), but lets just say at this point its a legal battle. End of story. My interest in this, is that I shared with them every break and consequent warranty I had with my Joker and they were able to explain in great detail why it happened. Ellsworth never, ever accepted responsibility--well I take that back, if honoring their warranty implies they took responsibility, then so be it. But they never said, "oh this part was mitered incorrectly" or "that's the 2 time your swing arm broke there, let us redesign that part for you and get it taken care of". Nope each time I was just relieved to have the warranty settled.

    There might me reference of this dispute somewhere on this board, but reading Mr. Ellsworth's thread really made me chuckle.

    Tony, you make a helluva product when its not broke. I'd still be on my Joker today, perhaps I would've even gotten the Id as a replacement for the ISIS. But you can't discredit people with the rule of 10...pfft...I'm calling shenanigans. Especially considering that 5 of my 5 reviews on mtbr of the Joker have been deleated.

    Smoke & fire.

    Do a search for Ellsworth warranty issues. There is a thread that was shut by the moderators that had 7000+ hits on it prior to being shut. Great read, Tony's own rants and all. You may check out my post titled "Question for Tony Ellsworth" He had said it was ok to remove brake bosses from a frame without voiding the warranty. Go figure.

  130. #130
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    Lets not and say we did

    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    Do a search for Ellsworth warranty issues. There is a thread that was shut by the moderators that had 7000+ hits on it prior to being shut. Great read, Tony's own rants and all. You may check out my post titled "Question for Tony Ellsworth" He had said it was ok to remove brake bosses from a frame without voiding the warranty. Go figure.

    douche bag!

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    for snutty.

    Bringing this one back for snutty.

  132. #132
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    First off, I don't own an Ellsworth....

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    and pay $500 to upgrade to current technology 3 years after i purchased my frame, if it breaks or something... thank you very much Tony.

    those who wouldnt accept that are fools. what are they thinking...
    and don't know anyone who does. I'd heard some rustling about them as a company and their bikes, bad mostly, through the internet. After reading this thread I would be more willing to buy one though. Just for gee whiz, I have a Titus, which really hasn't changed (functionally) since I got one in '02.

    I DO know that expecting a company to keep a stock of obsolete spare parts around after they change a design is just silly. I'm not a business major or anything, but it occurs to me that doing this would put just about anybody out of business. By expecting someone to do this, you should also be willing to pay more per frame for this rather unique opportunity. The numbers just can't support it, it's not a car afterall.

    I do know that a Truth is supposed to be a very lightweight XC/endurance race frame, and subjecting it to agressive riding might just be a bit much for it, probably not, but I wouldn't be suprised if somewhere down the line, something happened JRA at a ski resort, and I'd have to bite the bullet and pony up some cash to fix/replace it. Not that I'm saying this would happen, just that it shouldn't be a suprise if it did happen. When it comes to freeride frames, that warantee process must be downright scary. Personally, I (as a designer/builder/company owner) wouldn't give more than a year, and only then for manufacturing defects, and I'd want to see the bike in person, to determine the reason for failure before making any replacement guarantees.

    If two or more years down the line, I had a frame break, and brand X changed their design, improving the design, and they asked a fraction of the retail price for the new design, because the old design just isn't around anymore, I'd be happy to do it. Really, the only other possible, realistic solution is a partial refund. How long is the lifespan of an aluminum F/S frame, 5 years or so? Then how much are you going to get two, three years down the road, $1000, $500? $500 for a new improved frame? Half of that would be the price of a new rear shock, and you're getting a brand new frame, I don't see any problem with it.

    I think people are getting a little unrealistic with the whole warantee thing in general.

    Rich

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    I had an opportunity to test ride a Truth at my local 24 Hours of Adrenalin event and was very impressed. Since I am looking at purchasing a new bike I started researching Ellsworth as a possible choice and naturally I came here looking for information. After going through a number of the threads here I think there is a point that bears mentioning that I haven’t noticed anyone else making. All of you passionate types please take note that I do NOT own an Ellsworth, I have no history with them, and no firsthand knowledge of their customer service practices . That being said…
    The CURRENT warranty as posted on the Ellsworth web site states, “…the repair or replacement of frames or frame sub-assemblies…” (emphasis mine). I can’t ride a sub-assembly. If my frame fails as a result of an issue that is covered by warranty then I would expect the manufacturer to replace it with a frame that I can ride. I have twice dealt with other bicycle manufacturers on warranty replacement issues. In one case the weld where the down tube meets the head tube cracked. I received a replacement frame, not a head tube. Does the fact that the seat stay/chain stay assembly is bolted on as opposed to welded make it less a part of the frame? Personally I don’t think so. For full suspension bikes if the design has advanced and (for example) the shock from a warranty replacement no longer fits the current model then it seems reasonable that the rider bear the responsibility for the new shock. On my replacement frame mentioned above design changes had led to a seat post of a different size and a longer head tube so I needed a new seat post and fork. That struck me as reasonable. Having to pay (even a reduced amount) to replace half of the frame doesn’t seem reasonable. That seems like the manufacturer sending you a new head tube and offering to weld it on at a discounted rate.
    This is an observation of what I consider to be a weakness in the warranty. It may very well apply to other manufacturers of full suspension frames and not be Ellsworth-specific. It is very clearly stated in the warranty and should therefore not come as a big surprise to anyone. Disappointment sure, but not a surprise. This is definitely something that I will be taking into account when I purchase my next bike.

  134. #134
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    sigh...

    you aren't going to know what is going on just by reading one thread

    we know so far that;

    Tony lies

    Truths are not supposed to be ridden on XC trails in moab.

    You may or may not get a raw deal when warrentying your bike, expect to pay up to 60% of the purchase price

    The warrenty policy is different than nearly every other one out there, hinging on "if the current model" is available. If one technicality is changed on a bike, the model is "changed". In effect, a truth is not a truth is not a truth. The difference between ellsworth and other companies that offer warrenties is that it doesn't matter what the "model" is of the bike for other companies. If you own a turner 5-spot or a trek fuel, as long as the bike says "5-spot" or "fuel" on the side, it is what it is, and it will be warrentied if the warrenty period is still applicable.

    And yes, other companies do keep parts for old bikes in stock for years after they were made. If you are going to offer a 10 year warrenty, wouldn't that sort of impy that the manufacturer is going to make a commitment for the bike?

    Interestingly, I found a parallel with ellsworth in the firearm manufacturer Glock. Glock makes great pistols, and any flaws have been few and far inbetween, but there have been a few. Glock doesn't admit to any flaws though, they offer "upgrades" just like Ellsworth. Some of these flaws have been well documented but the company still will just not admit that they had a "flaw" in the pistol. It's really disgusting to see a company that makes a great product (as both of these have) take up a stance like this. It wouldn't keep me from buying a glock (but the non-ambidextrous features do)-as I know they are an excellent product, but it's just rediculous to see the company ignore obvious flaws and try to mask them with "upgrades".







    In the end, I think there are two outstanding facts. One is that tony lies. The other is that tony wants the marketing power of a 10 year warrenty, but doesn't want to pony up and offer what is usually associated with such a pratice, this creates a huge amount of the friction that we've seen.
    Last edited by Jm.; 06-23-2004 at 12:42 PM.

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    And yes, other companies do keep parts for old bikes in stock for years after they were made. If you are going to offer a 10 year warrenty, wouldn't that sort of impy that the manufacturer is going to make a commitment for the bike?

    Interestingly, I found a parallel with ellsworth in the firearm manufacturer Glock. Glock makes great pistols, and any flaws have been few and far inbetween, but there have been a few. Glock doesn't admit to any flaws though, they offer "upgrades" just like Ellsworth. Some of these flaws have been well documented but the company still will just not admit that they had a "flaw" in the pistol. It's really disgusting to see a company that makes a great product (as both of these have) take up a stance like this. It wouldn't keep me from buying a glock (but the non-ambidextrous features do)-as I know they are an excellent product, but it's just rediculous to see the company ignore obvious flaws and try to mask them with "upgrades".
    I think most of the ocmpanies that are offering lifetime warranties on frames are not stocking older models. Instead they choose to send out the current model to replace a past model that has failed (see the numerous posts about Trek and Specialized doing this with 5 year old frames). If you are going to offer a lifetime warrantee, you expect a certain number of bikes to fail and budget to allow for the replacement of those frames.

    As far as Glock, you mean the Kabooms from the unsupported chambers in the .40 Glocks was a design flaw??!!! I thought it was a design feature.
    Riding slowly since 1977.

  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDMC
    I think most of the ocmpanies that are offering lifetime warranties on frames are not stocking older models. Instead they choose to send out the current model to replace a past model that has failed (see the numerous posts about Trek and Specialized doing this with 5 year old frames). If you are going to offer a lifetime warrantee, you expect a certain number of bikes to fail and budget to allow for the replacement of those frames.
    Well, Ellsworth (and Titus, Ventana, or whoever) is not Trek or Specialized. They deal in a totally different scale. If they were, for instance, the Fuel would only be available in carbon. If you had an AL Fuel, and after the stock of AL fuels ran out, the only choice would be a carbon, I'd expect to pay some additional cost to upgrade to the carbon front triangle. If Specialized was a small company, the original bike would be a normal FSR/Epic/Enduro, and the updated model a few years down the line would be the S-works. These are different bikes, and just like the Fuel, some cost in upgrading could/would be expected, not as much, of course. I look at warrantees like insurance, you're not going to come out ahead in the deal, but it is something to defray the costs.

    Rich

  137. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDMC
    I think most of the ocmpanies that are offering lifetime warranties on frames are not stocking older models. Instead they choose to send out the current model to replace a past model that has failed.

    That's what I meant. Either way, it's a commitment.

  138. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by richde
    Well, Ellsworth (and Titus, Ventana, or whoever) is not Trek or Specialized. They deal in a totally different scale. If they were, for instance, the Fuel would only be available in carbon. If you had an AL Fuel, and after the stock of AL fuels ran out, the only choice would be a carbon, I'd expect to pay some additional cost to upgrade to the carbon front triangle. If Specialized was a small company, the original bike would be a normal FSR/Epic/Enduro, and the updated model a few years down the line would be the S-works. These are different bikes, and just like the Fuel, some cost in upgrading could/would be expected, not as much, of course. I look at warrantees like insurance, you're not going to come out ahead in the deal, but it is something to defray the costs.

    Rich
    It actually isn't different. Specilized and Trek discontinue models all the time and they replace with the closest current model. Often times this ends up being an upgrade. Do a search and find out how many people have had their 99 or 2000 FSR replaced with a Stumpjumper FSR frame, or how many people who broke treks received a better frame as their free replacement. Search and look at the posts from people who said, oh and by the way, since the old shock wasn't compatible specialized or trek included a new shock that fits the new frame for no charge.

    Ellworth offering to replace a two year old frame with a lifetime warrantee for $1000 is not even close to being the same. As far as Ventana, Titus, Turner, Santa Cruz, they do not offer lifetime warrantees. They instead offer 1-2 year warrantees and then choose to extend or offer a discount on replacement frames outside that period. It is much more honest to have a short warrantee and offer to help outside the warrantee, than a long warrantee that is misleading.
    Riding slowly since 1977.

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    A Glock question.

    As far as Glock, you mean the Kabooms from the unsupported chambers in the .40 Glocks was a design flaw??!!! I thought it was a design feature. [/QUOTE]


    Do these flaws include the 10mm and .45 models?

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    Well said.

    Quote Originally Posted by CDMC
    It actually isn't different. Specilized and Trek discontinue models all the time and they replace with the closest current model. Often times this ends up being an upgrade. Do a search and find out how many people have had their 99 or 2000 FSR replaced with a Stumpjumper FSR frame, or how many people who broke treks received a better frame as their free replacement. Search and look at the posts from people who said, oh and by the way, since the old shock wasn't compatible specialized or trek included a new shock that fits the new frame for no charge.

    Ellworth offering to replace a two year old frame with a lifetime warrantee for $1000 is not even close to being the same. As far as Ventana, Titus, Turner, Santa Cruz, they do not offer lifetime warrantees. They instead offer 1-2 year warrantees and then choose to extend or offer a discount on replacement frames outside that period. It is much more honest to have a short warrantee and offer to help outside the warrantee, than a long warrantee that is misleading.
    I see that type of stuff from Cannondale, Specialized, and Trek. THey have all replaced warrantied frames AND included new shocks where needed.

  141. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by richde
    Well, Ellsworth (and Titus, Ventana, or whoever) is not Trek or Specialized. They deal in a totally different scale. If they were, for instance, the Fuel would only be available in carbon. If you had an AL Fuel, and after the stock of AL fuels ran out, the only choice would be a carbon, I'd expect to pay some additional cost to upgrade to the carbon front triangle. If Specialized was a small company, the original bike would be a normal FSR/Epic/Enduro, and the updated model a few years down the line would be the S-works. These are different bikes, and just like the Fuel, some cost in upgrading could/would be expected, not as much, of course. I look at warrantees like insurance, you're not going to come out ahead in the deal, but it is something to defray the costs.

    Rich
    Rich- Ells. has had a problem with Truth's failing at the same spot(I've seen at least a dozen cases just on this site), and they have blamed this on rider error. They were replacing the broken front sections for some until they changed the design, then they started charging people because they were not stocking replacement parts. My second Truth (an 03') was 9 months old when it failed at the same spot and I had to pay for the 04' upgrade.

    Considering the amount of failures they have had, you would think they would have continued to stock 03' front sections to replace the broken ones, or just commit to replacing them with the new design-they choose to do neither.

  142. #142
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    I have a friend who had a Specialized Ground Control, like a 1997 model year. In 2001 he found a crack near the deraillure hanger. Specialized didn't make the GC anymore so they gave him his choice of any Full Susp. frame he wanted - no charge.

    He has an Enduro now. I'd have to say that it's not the fault of the bike owner that the company doesn't stock what you originally bought. That should be considered by the company when they change the frame style or discontinue a model.

    I can tell you that my friend won't buy anything but Specialized from now on.

    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    Rich- Ells. has had a problem with Truth's failing at the same spot(I've seen at least a dozen cases just on this site), and they have blamed this on rider error. They were replacing the broken front sections for some until they changed the design, then they started charging people because they were not stocking replacement parts. My second Truth (an 03') was 9 months old when it failed at the same spot and I had to pay for the 04' upgrade.

    Considering the amount of failures they have had, you would think they would have continued to stock 03' front sections to replace the broken ones, or just commit to replacing them with the new design-they choose to do neither.

  143. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    As far as Glock, you mean the Kabooms from the unsupported chambers in the .40 Glocks was a design flaw??!!! I thought it was a design feature.

    Do these flaws include the 10mm and .45 models?[/QUOTE]

    I have only heard about it with the .40. I am pretty sure the 45 doesn't suffer from it, but the 10mm with its similar case design to the 40 could. You should do a search for Glock and Kaboom if you have one to be sure. If you don't, just spend the extra and get an HK USP, once you go with a USP there is no going back.

    Riding slowly since 1977.

  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    Rich- Ells. has had a problem with Truth's failing at the same spot(I've seen at least a dozen cases just on this site), and they have blamed this on rider error. They were replacing the broken front sections for some until they changed the design, then they started charging people because they were not stocking replacement parts. My second Truth (an 03') was 9 months old when it failed at the same spot and I had to pay for the 04' upgrade.

    Considering the amount of failures they have had, you would think they would have continued to stock 03' front sections to replace the broken ones, or just commit to replacing them with the new design-they choose to do neither.
    Of course, within a year is a different story. Especially if it's a common failure. I'd expect either a replacement or refund at that point. I was making my generalizations about a failure a few years down the line.

    Rich

  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDMC
    once you go with a USP there is no going back.

    Bah, my ruger .45 eats that euro-trash for breakfast, and cycles anything you feed it, just like the USP-it makes a good club as well to beat people over the head with, and of course that will never affect it's operation either It's actually quite a bit more accurate than my .22 (a trait of .45s more than specific manufacturers).

    I had a friend with a USP, and I got to use it. Very fine indeed.

  146. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Ellsworth
    The long and short about the Ellsworth Warranty

    The Short—
    THE WARRANTY.
    Resolving accusations our warranty not being honored is about making the facts available to everyone.

    In the end, it's about making people happy, healthy, and able to enjoy the planet in an environmentally healthy way. I'm a firm believer that a man reaps what he sews, and when I'm done on this planet, I will be pleased in the knowledge that I've sewn seeds of making many people healthy and happy, and not obliterated the planet in the process.

    I really appreciate your expressing your views, and your willingness to consider what I've put in print here. I remain available to any suggestions you might have to make the experience better. Thanks in advance for your time and consideration in this matter.

    Sincerely,
    Tony Ellsworth
    Tony, if you are genuine, please contact me. Until I experienced the after sales service of Freeborn, when I discovered a crack in my Isis, I was proud to ride an Ellsworth and to be associated with a quality, innovative and official company. Now I have my frame on the garage wall, ride a S Works Enduro and feel sick every time I see your brand.

    If you contact me via this forum (Personal e mail), I will give you all the facts, so you can make up your own mind about who is in the wrong.

    As a matter of interest, would it be Freeborn or Ellsworth who pay for repairs under the warrantee (The bike was 2.5 years in to the LIFETIME warrantee)?

  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    As far as Glock, you mean the Kabooms from the unsupported chambers in the .40 Glocks was a design flaw??!!! I thought it was a design feature.

    Do these flaws include the 10mm and .45 models?[/QUOTE]

    The .40 barrels were originaly bored out 9mm barrels. Also, the kabooms are so few and far between, but blown out of proportion by.. once again the internet. Don't get me wrong, I don't like glocks for many reasons, especially since you have to pull the trigger to dissasemble the damn thing, but of my friends in Law Enforcement still swear to their glocks.

  148. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesacrifice

    The .40 barrels were originaly bored out 9mm barrels. Also, the kabooms are so few and far between, but blown out of proportion by.. once again the internet. Don't get me wrong, I don't like glocks for many reasons, especially since you have to pull the trigger to dissasemble the damn thing, but of my friends in Law Enforcement still swear to their glocks.
    There were more "problems" than just that, but the fact is that it WAS a problem, and that the higher pressure of a .40 round was a little much for the pistol, there's also something about the chamber that I can't remember right now that is radically different than that in other pistols.

    If I could deal with the ergonomics of a glock, I'd probably have one, in fact I'd probably have the .40 or .45 model.

    The thing is that for the most part, Glock makes excellent pistols, pistols that fire underwater, pistols that hold up in extreme enviroments, and many pistols that function pretty darn near-flawless. The fact though is that there were a few problems, and that these problems were covered-up with an "upgrade", rather than the company owning up to the fact that it was just a flaw in the design. Very similer to what ellsworth does.

  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    There were more "problems" than just that, but the fact is that it WAS a problem, and that the higher pressure of a .40 round was a little much for the pistol, there's also something about the chamber that I can't remember right now that is radically different than that in other pistols.

    If I could deal with the ergonomics of a glock, I'd probably have one, in fact I'd probably have the .40 or .45 model.

    The thing is that for the most part, Glock makes excellent pistols, pistols that fire underwater, pistols that hold up in extreme enviroments, and many pistols that function pretty darn near-flawless. The fact though is that there were a few problems, and that these problems were covered-up with an "upgrade", rather than the company owning up to the fact that it was just a flaw in the design. Very similer to what ellsworth does.
    That was the problem, they bored out the 9mm barrel to accept the 40, and the higher pressure of the 40 round has been reported to cause some problems, though not frequent, I think it's probably a case of being esculated do the the internet. The glocks have something like 3 measures of safety but imo make a horrible firearm for someone new to firearms, for many reasons, one I listed before. Anyhow this isn't a thread about firearms so i'll stop now.. but first... go sig or hk

  150. #150

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    This needs to be brought back.

    Given the subject matter on some current threads, this needs to be brought back to the top. Sorry if you have a problem with this.

  151. #151

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    Again...

    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    Given the subject matter on some current threads, this needs to be brought back to the top. Sorry if you have a problem with this.


    There is someone wanting proof, well here it is.

  152. #152

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    The CSPC called...

    The CSPC wants to speak with those of you that have had issues with broken frames.
    See my CSPC thread for more info.

  153. #153

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    Ellsworth warranty...

    word.
    i'm just gonna post this reply so that this thread will shoot to the top of the board.
    T.E. is a stand up guy and is doing his best to make the best product possible...
    like EW or not, that's your choice, but it's true...most of what you read hear is just the negative that's been amplified, multiplied, and whateverAfied.

  154. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by adlo76
    word.
    i'm just gonna post this reply so that this thread will shoot to the top of the board.
    T.E. is a stand up guy and is doing his best to make the best product possible...
    like EW or not, that's your choice, but it's true...most of what you read hear is just the negative that's been amplified, multiplied, and whateverAfied.
    Oh man...you made all the difference..I'm sure everone will reevaluate all their opinions based on your response, especially since you said you just responded to bump all this good reading to the top!

    Tony must cringe everytime this happens.

    Lemme guess, when you went on dates, the first thing you said was "Wow, you aren't as ugly as my last girlfriend!"

  155. #155
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    My Joker cracked 3 times in about a two and a half years. The first time I was half way across the country in Moab, when the bike had about 1200 miles on it. The other cracks followed at 1000-1500 miles intervals. This cost me a lot of riding time, and even with good warranty service would have any sane person looking for something else. Add the fact that warranty process was slow and difficult, and you've got even more reason to look elsewhere. When I found out that they were changing the bike and it was going to cost be $400.00 the next time the front cracked, I sold it, ordered a Bullit 18 months ago and couldn't be happier .
    My second mountain bike was a Specialized Hardrock that I bought new in 1983. About seven years ago, I noticed a small crack in the drive side dropout. Specialized has a Lifetime warranty on all their steel frames, so they replaced a 15 year old frame at NO CHARGE. TE should model his warranty after Santa Cruz (and build a stronger frame), they don't seem to have all of these problems.
    Med. V10.5 for sale

  156. #156

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    Over the last year has it been concluded why Ellsworth bikes have such a high failure rate? Is it bad design or a poor build? I thought EW bikes are made in the same factory (handmade in Oregon, Ca) as many other high end bikes that don't have such a dismal failure record.

    The other part of this equation: why is Tony is so erratic with his service? How come somthing hasn't been done by EW owners in a legal manner?

    Beautiful bikes, but they're kind of like those Ferrari Testarossas or Lamborghini Countachs that you find out are really Pontiac Fieros with a kit body on it.

  157. #157
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    mtbgrasshopper???

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbgrasshopper
    Over the last year has it been concluded why Ellsworth bikes have such a high failure rate? Is it bad design or a poor build? I thought EW bikes are made in the same factory (handmade in Oregon, Ca) as many other high end bikes that don't have such a dismal failure record.

    The other part of this equation: why is Tony is so erratic with his service? How come somthing hasn't been done by EW owners in a legal manner?

    Beautiful bikes, but they're kind of like those Ferrari Testarossas or Lamborghini Countachs that you find out are really Pontiac Fieros with a kit body on it.
    indeed. no kidding...


  158. #158

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    Dude, you realize I'm trying to get some real info, right?

    While lurking, I've noticed that every time someone tries to make something constructive out of this, you derail it with personal attacks and bring the threads further and further away from the point. You fight with everyone and they have a field day with you, in turn. Then the next step is after a two day flame war (which you always lose), you come out with a "Let's be friends and be constructive from now on" post.

    I have to ask of you, Osokolo, why do you resort to such measures? Why do you fight tooth and nail against people that have legitimate claims against EW?

  159. #159
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    the answers to all your questions

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbgrasshopper
    Dude, you realize I'm trying to get some real info, right?

    While lurking, I've noticed that every time someone tries to make something constructive out of this, you derail it with personal attacks and bring the threads further and further away from the point. You fight with everyone and they have a field day with you, in turn. Then the next step is after a two day flame war (which you always lose), you come out with a "Let's be friends and be constructive from now on" post.

    I have to ask of you, Osokolo, why do you resort to such measures? Why do you fight tooth and nail against people that have legitimate claims against EW?
    are on this board.

    if you consider your question constructive, all the power to you then.

    you said you have been lurking around this board for a year. There were few long threads about Truth 01 seatstay failures and the general consensus here was that it was a stress riser that could have been designed differently to relieve the stress (implemented on 04 Truth - which did not have a single reported failure so far).

    so that i the answer to your first question.

    apparently EW bikes are not built at the same place where many other high end bikes are built. This was also discussed recently.

    it was also generally agreed to that EW bikes don't have unproportionally larger number of breakages compared to other brands, but individual customers' issues were not dealt as well as they could/should be, hence so much noise about breakages. If EW took care of all the claims differently, there would not have been so much noise about it. This conclusion was pretty obvious in many threads that you apparently lurked around.

    It is your last statement that affects your credibility the most:

    Pontiac Fieros with the body kit - bwahahaha... just shows your ignorance...

    No one, in any of the threads dealing with the issue, argued that EW bikes dont ride well. What you are trying to say is that they are all show and no go. Get your facts straight. If you really asked a constructive question, validly asking for some info on the topic, you would have gotten the appropriatae answer.

    Now make some use of the search button and find ALL answers to questions you may have in the threads that are still available.

    out of 5 total posts that you have posted so far, 4 are about Ellsworth, none of them positive or constructive.

    You told us why you were turned off from buying Ellsworth after reading this board - fine, but who cares really? If you based your decision on what you read here and not on the test ride, that speaks volumes.

    and now you are asking questions that have been asked and answered many times.

    so you can come in and piss around and you expect to be treated with respect? You must be out of your mind...

    that is all i've got to tell you, so you can continue to play all by yourself from now...

  160. #160

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    And you're apparently combative when you try and post constructively.

    The search feature is essentially useless for these threads because 95% of all the posts are from you offering nothing. It sucks to dabble through the pages and then read about how you're accusing someone whom you don't know of erectile dysfunction and then getting it thrown back in your face. I know there is word of threads that were deleted. And why was this?

    For the information posted, thank you. As for the tone, well, you're the court jester on MTBR.

  161. #161
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    If I could play mediator(sp?) here, mtbgrass-I can see where oso is coming from with your question but if your honest then you deserve an honest answer IMO, oso- he's right, your tone is a bit negative.

    The answer to your question has been beaten to death but I think it's healthy for this forum to be able to discuss it without all the negative stuff, the bottom line IMO is his frames are not as reliable as most and he has not taken care of his customers(overall) in the past, BUT, his bikes ride as nice as anything out there.

  162. #162

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    How about one thread or one post that simply lays out all of the facts. I'm just curious and if I can recommend someone to or away from EW, I'd like to have some real information to give them.

    I still wonder, however about Osokolo and why he fights so hard about the negative posts. People have reason, it seems to say bad things about EW and the man behind it all.

  163. #163
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    now would you please

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbgrasshopper
    And you're apparently combative when you try and post constructively.

    The search feature is essentially useless for these threads because 95% of all the posts are from you offering nothing. It sucks to dabble through the pages and then read about how you're accusing someone whom you don't know of erectile dysfunction and then getting it thrown back in your face. I know there is word of threads that were deleted. And why was this?

    For the information posted, thank you. As for the tone, well, you're the court jester on MTBR.
    tell me why you used the derogatory statement comparing Ellsworth to Pontiac Fiero with a body kit?

    it is not your question that made me make my comment, it was this comparison at the end...

    why?

  164. #164

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    FuNNy tReaD

    Who Posted?
    Total Posts: 163
    User Name Posts
    osokolo 62
    Jm. 23
    rroeder 13
    damion 12
    mikedesign 5
    Pete 5
    mtbgrasshopper 4
    erol/frost 4
    richde 3
    gonzostrike 3
    CDMC 3
    andy f 2
    Quattro 2
    thesacrifice 2
    lidarman 2
    The Tree 1
    spongstick 1
    ToddM 1
    bingemtbr 1
    Tony Ellsworth 1

  165. #165
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    i thought you'd say...


    hE shOUld BUrN In HEll



    just be your usual self...




    *



    Quote Originally Posted by Satan
    FuNNy tReaD

    Who Posted?
    Total Posts: 163
    User Name Posts
    osokolo 62
    Jm. 23
    rroeder 13
    damion 12
    mikedesign 5
    Pete 5
    mtbgrasshopper 4
    erol/frost 4
    richde 3
    gonzostrike 3
    CDMC 3
    andy f 2
    Quattro 2
    thesacrifice 2
    lidarman 2
    The Tree 1
    spongstick 1
    ToddM 1
    bingemtbr 1
    Tony Ellsworth 1

  166. #166

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    Relax, you two.

    What is up, oso? did you find someone new to spar with?

    MTBgrasshopper, this thread has been done to death. It shows. You have some valid questions and points, but this has been beat up before. Do not bother to engage with Osokolo, he is the resident Ellsworth crusader.

    Osokolo has 3 times as many posts on this thread than any other poster. Amazing. Sad, and amazing, at the same time.


    Let it go, gentlemen. (and ladies)

  167. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbgrasshopper
    How about one thread or one post that simply lays out all of the facts. I'm just curious and if I can recommend someone to or away from EW, I'd like to have some real information to give them.
    What kind of facts are looking for? There are a lot of threads with plenty of info, I think most here are kinda sick of hearing about them over and over so in that respect it doesn't make much sense to discuss the details.

  168. #168
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    oh hi damion

    nothing compares to arguing with you or pete, i have to admit...

    i was expecting you. where have you been...

    would you please help me increase the number of my useless posts... you will benefit along the same lines too...

    by the way, i am stil an amateur when compared to your number of posts... dont think yours were more useful than mine...

    other than that, how is everything? putting some mileage on your bike? whats new for the upcoming season? did you upgrade any parts? new bike anytime soon?


    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    What is up, oso? did you find someone new to spar with?

    MTBgrasshopper, this thread has been done to death. It shows. You have some valid questions and points, but this has been beat up before. Do not bother to engage with Osokolo, he is the resident Ellsworth crusader.

    Osokolo has 3 times as many posts on this thread than any other poster. Amazing. Sad, and amazing, at the same time.




    Let it go, gentlemen. (and ladies)

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    If you really want some input....

    ....crosspost over at the Ventana, Turner and Titus boards, asking former Ellsworth owners why they are now Ventana, Turner or Titus owners. I assure you that you'll learn everthing you ever wanted to know about Ellsworth AND you won't have to put up with people like Osokolo who, judging by their reasoning, think invoking anecdotes is enough to disprove scientifically proven generalities.




    Quote Originally Posted by mtbgrasshopper
    How about one thread or one post that simply lays out all of the facts. I'm just curious and if I can recommend someone to or away from EW, I'd like to have some real information to give them.

    I still wonder, however about Osokolo and why he fights so hard about the negative posts. People have reason, it seems to say bad things about EW and the man behind it all.

  170. #170
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    wow... "scientifically proven generalities"

    Quote Originally Posted by Shylock
    ....crosspost over at the Ventana, Turner and Titus boards, asking former Ellsworth owners why they are now Ventana, Turner or Titus owners. I assure you that you'll learn everthing you ever wanted to know about Ellsworth AND you won't have to put up with people like Osokolo who, judging by their reasoning, think invoking anecdotes is enough to disprove scientifically proven generalities.
    there you go 'hopper...

    nothing beats "scientifically proven generalities" i guess... That science must have been developed on the above listed forums...

    but before you go, please answer my question: why did you compare Ellsworth to Pontiac FIero with a body kit and not a real Ferrari...

    if you are as honestly looking for the info, as you say, i'd love to hear your answer...

    o.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shylock
    ....crosspost over at the Ventana, Turner and Titus boards, asking former Ellsworth owners why they are now Ventana, Turner or Titus owners. I assure you that you'll learn everthing you ever wanted to know about Ellsworth AND you won't have to put up with people like Osokolo who, judging by their reasoning, think invoking anecdotes is enough to disprove scientifically proven generalities.

  171. #171

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    Predictably obtuse....

    See, I didn't say that the ongoing problems with Ellsworth are "scientifically proven generalities"; I suggested that people who seemingly think that their positive Ellsworth anecdotes have more validity and veritably trump the aggregate experience of others who have had less than happy experiences with Tony E and company, are the same people who like to argue against science using their own personal experiences.

    I didn't expect you to understand this and knew you would respond exactly as you did. It's just like the way you decided to take up the Castro/Cuban cigar conundrum I posed as parallel to the Tony E./ Ellsworth Truth issue as an opportunity to spout on about politics , all the while missing the point.



    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    there you go 'hopper...

    nothing beats "scientifically proven generalities" i guess... That science must have been developed on the above listed forums...

    but before you go, please answer my question: why did you compare Ellsworth to Pontiac FIero with a body kit and not a real Ferrari...

    if you are as honestly looking for the info, as you say, i'd love to hear your answer...

    o.

  172. #172
    sock puppet
    Reputation: osokolo's Avatar
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    heh, sure...

    only you know what you wanted to say... blame it on my reading comprehension. that is easy...




    Quote Originally Posted by Shylock
    See, I didn't say that the ongoing problems with Ellsworth are "scientifically proven generalities"
    no prob, you may retract your statement. it is accepted

    I suggested that people who seemingly think that their positive Ellsworth anecdotes have more validity and veritably trump the aggregate experience of others who have had less than happy experiences with Tony E and company, are the same people who like to argue against science using their own personal experiences.
    i guess you are trying to say that negative experiences are more important and only acceptable as a valid argument, and positive experiences with EW are just the fruit of ignorance and can not offset negative experiences. Am i right?

    well, then you didnt understand what i was trying to say all along. but i really didnt expect that you could understand that anyway...

    It is not I who is taking this arguments personally, it is you and those who approach this issue like you. I am the EW owener with positive expererience and I am speaking my mind. You obviously have a problem with that. Sorry, you will have to live with it, cant help you there...



    I didn't expect you to understand this and knew you would respond exactly as you did. It's just like the way you decided to take up the Castro/Cuban cigar conundrum I posed as parallel to the Tony E./ Ellsworth Truth issue as an opportunity to spout on about politics , all the while missing the point.
    to which you continued to argue about with some lame and uninformed logic... so what is your point?

  173. #173
    No, that's not phonetic
    Reputation: tscheezy's Avatar
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    For a minute there this board almost turned over a new leaf with the positive content. Looks like we dodged that bullet....
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  174. #174

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    I didn't question your reading comprehension...

    I questioned your........




    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    only you know what you wanted to say... blame it on my reading comprehension. that is easy...






    no prob, you may retract your statement. it is accepted



    i guess you are trying to say that negative experiences are more important and only acceptable as a valid argument, and positive experiences with EW are just the fruit of ignorance and can not offset negative experiences. Am i right?

    well, then you didnt understand what i was trying to say all along. but i really didnt expect that you could understand that anyway...

    It is not I who is taking this arguments personally, it is you and those who approach this issue like you. I am the EW owener with positive expererience and I am speaking my mind. You obviously have a problem with that. Sorry, you will have to live with it, cant help you there...





    to which you continued to argue about with some lame and uninformed logic... so what is your point?

  175. #175
    Lay off the Levers
    Reputation: Bikezilla's Avatar
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    As long as nobody blames it on the Turner Homers...

    People, the dude was clearly wrong...but that's the whole idea of flame-bait (intended or not): Post something obviously inflamatory and/or incorrect and see who takes the hook. Then with the heated exchange all the others who love a good flamefest chime in and throw more chum in the water.

    Don't engage, just make your point and move on. Few people really care about personal opinions some have of others. Yeah, once in a while you just gotta stand up and cry "FOUL!" but not every time.

    Better yet...how about some more ride shots?
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

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