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  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Atomik Carbon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004

    Difference between Epiphany and "old" Dare

    I bought a 2000 dare years ago and still love it. It is my primary ride and I use it for freeriding and have it down to about 33 pounds in weight.

    I have noticed that Ellsworth has gone back to the same basic design. First starting with the Moment and now the Epiphany. What do you suppose the biggest change was to the 2000 Dare?? And why did they change?? The Dare was always said to be very flexy. I am 150 pounds and have not found it to be so. I am glad to see that the design is still a good one and that it has been copied so many times, it's like a classic Mercedes....only gets better. Just kidding, I would like to keep it as long as possible.


  2. #2
    Time is not a road.
    Reputation: chad1433's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Do you mean the Rogue? That thing looks like a Dare-light. Mark Weir raced a Dare for a few years in Super D events because it pedals so well.

    I have yet to see a 2006 Dare, BTW.

  3. #3
    The Dude Abides
    Reputation: UP Dude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004

    Here comes some geek talk

    The first generation Dare's are soooo awesome. I'm a huge Ellsworth fan because of the Dare and it's suspension geometry. The ICT patents are actually based on the Dare's design. And the reason it works so well is because of the huge length of the upper rockers. They allow the floating pivot point to stay further out in front of the bike, and not detour as much from the chain line as the shorter rocker bikes. The one drawback to the Dare design is that while it is more efficient for pedalling, because of the long rockers you need to have a rather long shock. To get the leverage ratio down for XC use, the shock location would essentialy be impossible, at least very impractical. The earlier Dares had less travel because they used a smaller shock, which required a higher spring rate and leverage ratio. This makes for a much less sensitive suspension. Plus, the market evolved for larger travel downhill bikes and made room for a Moment type bike to come in.

    When the Moment came out, it was very exciting to see a Dare-ish bike with 6" of travel. But it still wasn't the Dare. Now there is the Rogue, we're getting closer. I got to ride both bikes at Interbike this fall, and both are amazing. The Moment felt just like my '02 Joker, only better. The Rogue was also amazing. A bit heavier with the larger, coil over shock and slightly heavier build kit, but a fun bike. The interesting comparison between the two was pedaling. In the saddle, the Rogue was perfect. Absolutely no bob, at all. I couldn't believe it. The Moment was good, don't get me wrong, but the Rogue was just awesome. However, when it came to standing on the pedals, those 8" made themselves known. I think you could significantly improve the pedaling by tossing on an air shock and adding a little extra pressure. Another thing that kinda sucks about the Rogue are the frame sizes, just 16 and 18. Granted, its meant more for freeriding, but a 19" with Moment geometry would be supa-dupa.
    So here is my request to Mr.Tony Ellsworth. Could you find it in heart to make me a bike with a proper all-mountain front triangle (Moment) front end and a Rogue/Dare rear end?

    I'm sorry, I haven't even talked about the Epiphany yet. And the reason is that they don't really compare. The 2000 Dare is far more the ancestor of the Moment than the Epiphany. Consider the Epiphany a long travel Truth that looks like a Moment. Far more XC than the 2000 Dare could ever be.

  4. #4
    whatever she says gueuze.
    Reputation: ndinh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004


    I had a '00 Dare for years and yes, it looks almost identical to the new Rogue. As I recalled, my Dare had 7" of travel with a claimed weight of 7 lbs. It was a great frame that climbed extremely well. I then went to a '02 Dare with the monocoque front. Also a great legendary frame. A bit heavier at 9 lbs+ with 8" but it also climbed extremely well. I think Shaums March raced the older Dares with his Zzyzx forks and Weir raced a customized newer generation Dare. Both are nice frames but I prefer the mono. front more.

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