Anyone considering an Ellsworth bike...- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1

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    Anyone considering an Ellsworth bike...

    will want to read the "Ellsworth warranty" thread that is on the General Discussion board. Pay close attention to how Tony Ellsworth responds to the posts. In this case, it is easy to read between the lines.

  2. #2
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    Hope Are you trying to be helpful ?

    I don't know why but there's a few folks trying to sabotage Ellsworth's business. And Tony Ellsworth has chosen to defend his company in these forums. I would think having the owner of a bike company available in these forums is a net positive, except to those that don't want to hear his point of view.

    Anyway anyone considering an Ellsworth product may get a wider perspective from a lot more folks about the actual products by going to the review section Ellsworth Reviews

  3. #3
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    Guys, please go to YOUR forum...

    Hey guys, let's get one thing straight. We all ride. It's a downright shame we have to regress into this "my bike is better than yours" crap. If you don't like Ellsworths, FINE....good for you. I'm pumped that your proud of your Turner, your Ventana, your Titus. Heck, if you have a Giant Rainier, that's great.
    I know over 20 Ellsworth owners, including myself. We all love our bikes. No breaks, no problems, no warranty issues, just a great bike.
    You think Tony Ellsworth is in this for the cash??? If you know anything about the bike industry, than you know there's not a manufacturer on the planet that's cleaning up and raking in millions. Is he doing this for free? I sure as heck hope not b/c there are much easier ways to make a buck these days.
    Go to your respective forums. Talk amongst yourselves about the bikes you own, and why you love them. Us Ellsworth owners just want to do the same. Without the insults, without the badgering, and without the pretense that we don't know about the product we paid thousands of dollars for....

  4. #4
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    We the people ...

    Quote Originally Posted by mbexx
    Hey guys, let's get one thing straight. We all ride. It's a downright shame we have to regress into this "my bike is better than yours" crap. If you don't like Ellsworths, FINE....good for you. I'm pumped that your proud of your Turner, your Ventana, your Titus. Heck, if you have a Giant Rainier, that's great.
    I know over 20 Ellsworth owners, including myself. We all love our bikes. No breaks, no problems, no warranty issues, just a great bike.
    You think Tony Ellsworth is in this for the cash??? If you know anything about the bike industry, than you know there's not a manufacturer on the planet that's cleaning up and raking in millions. Is he doing this for free? I sure as heck hope not b/c there are much easier ways to make a buck these days.
    Go to your respective forums. Talk amongst yourselves about the bikes you own, and why you love them. Us Ellsworth owners just want to do the same. Without the insults, without the badgering, and without the pretense that we don't know about the product we paid thousands of dollars for....
    I have to speak up....

    We REALLY don't need another my bike is better than your bike flamefest. We've had them before and both brands come out tarnished because of tit for tat posts, and personal comments.
    IMO MTBR did a really good thing by creating mfgr forums so bike owners of various brands and potential shoppers could discuss various issues without some of the negative things that used to occur.

    Please, let's let the Ellsworth riders enjoy their forum and post news help and/or issues for themselves or they just might not come back. We'll all loose out in the general, shock, brake and other forums w/o their participation. Besides I really think it makes the Turner fans look like trolls when they come to the EW forum just to post bad news, negative comments about Tony E, and such if they aren't even considering buying an EW.

    Answering questions? cool, voicing opinions about comparisons, cool, saying hey look over there, real dirt on the brand....eh well, we all can read.

    A lot of people are happy on their EW's (including the guy who sits in front of me, and one for my regular riding buddies) I don't think the EW's are any less durable than most of the other bike companies. Their warranty policy is documented. TE, for good or bad does address the MTBR community which is something few other bike mfgrs do. Take his comments for what you will and move on. It's not like he eats babies. Plus if we abuse the few mfgrs that do post, others won't even try.

    TE has spoken to all the issues raised before, I posted links to try to head off rehashing it all over again. It's in the archives, and now it's here so let's leave it up to the others to read it for themselves.

    Never mind TE, Let's not create a lot of bad feelings...everyone's got em, just think how you'd feel if it was the other way around. We all love our bikes that's a common ground we should appreciate.

    Just my .02 (Sorry don't mean to be preachy I just don't want MY bikes brand dragged through the mud either)
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 02-03-2004 at 10:28 AM.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbexx
    Hey guys, let's get one thing straight. We all ride. It's a downright shame we have to regress into this "my bike is better than yours" crap. If you don't like Ellsworths, FINE....good for you. I'm pumped that your proud of your Turner, your Ventana, your Titus. Heck, if you have a Giant Rainier, that's great.
    I know over 20 Ellsworth owners, including myself. We all love our bikes. No breaks, no problems, no warranty issues, just a great bike.
    You think Tony Ellsworth is in this for the cash??? If you know anything about the bike industry, than you know there's not a manufacturer on the planet that's cleaning up and raking in millions. Is he doing this for free? I sure as heck hope not b/c there are much easier ways to make a buck these days.
    Go to your respective forums. Talk amongst yourselves about the bikes you own, and why you love them. Us Ellsworth owners just want to do the same. Without the insults, without the badgering, and without the pretense that we don't know about the product we paid thousands of dollars for....
    Great post couldn't of said it better. As an Ellsworth owner I feel our bikes are on par with Chris King quality. A few months after I bought my Ellsworth I got a call from Mrs Ellsworth. She wanted to know how I liked my bike and if there were there any questions.She was very pleasent. To me that was class A customer realations. I have owned 4 other brands and never got a call from the owner.

    So lets just go out there ride what ever we want and stop bashing.

  6. #6
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    Interesting story from my friend who owns a Truth.

    When he was in the LBS shipping his broken Truth back to ellsworth a lady there asked how much it cost. When he told her she laughed and said something to the effect of "Now I know how Tony affords that mansion he lives in". She supposedly lived right next to him when she lived in CA. No idea if this woman was full of it or not, but I wonder how much money TE really makes?

    I agree that Ellsworth does seem to get bashed a lot on these forums. Honestly though, do you think that people just decided to pick on Tony? Or are there real reasons why he gets vilified on these pages? The dealer that sold my friend his truth no longer covers Ellsworth, and he said that _EVERY_ truth he sold broke. He mentioned that my friends truth was the last one that he had sold that hadn't broken. My bud had to shell out 275 for a new shock and was originally told he would have to pay 250 for a new rocker arms as well, but Ellsworth finally did cover that.

    FWIW, I do think it's appropriate to come to the Ellsworth page and post concerns about the warrantee coverage since people in the market for them will look @ this page.

    That being said it seems to me that the majority of the Truth breakage issues were earlier models (I.e. the 2001 was especially prone to breaking) and you see many less broken Truths nowdays.

    It also seems that Ellsworth can be very responsive in some situations. Whenever a thread comes out about the warrantee there are always a bunch of people who jump on and sing praises about how quickly Ellsworth replaced a broken frame part.

    My friend absolutely loves the ride of the his new truth (2004 front/2001 rear). He couldn't be happier with the bike. Hopefully it will hold up for him because it really is a sweet riding bike.

    Take it easy.

    Dave

  7. #7
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    Bystander opinion

    Quote Originally Posted by mbexx
    No breaks, no problems, no warranty issues,
    which is exactly why are not able to speak to TE's customer service. Every company makes mistakes - it's how you deal with those mistakes that determines what kind of company you are. Tony's customer relations are suspect. While I feel that some of the issues raised are overblown, it's hard to argue with many of the points that the posters in the other thread make.

    You'll notice that I have not posted about this in either thread until now - I'm hardly a EW basher. Frankly, TE's business practices are of little importance to me personally but the soap opera is fun to watch.

    To sum up: Real or perceived, Tony has a real problem on his hands regarding customer service.

  8. #8

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    Anyone considering an Ellsworth bike...

    I don't own an Ellsworth. The reason I don't comes down to size. What's up with no XL size bike ever being offerred? If I did try to ride a 19" or a 20" I would have to deal with a WAY extended 27.2mm post! Even at 195lbs, a bike with questionable durability, poor warranty and a hefty price tag, IMO it would not be a wise move for me. Why not 31.6? It seems most of the durable well made frames out there(except for Turner, but he has an XL with a reinforced 21" seat tube) use 31.6. Can anyone shed some light? If I am missing something I apologize...By the way I don't own a Turner either, but since they do offer the XL I would buy the 5 Spot before an ID or Moment, even though I think they are really nice looking bikes.

  9. #9
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    Wonky Sizing

    Quote Originally Posted by b_tnilc
    I don't own an Ellsworth. The reason I don't comes down to size. What's up with no XL size bike ever being offerred? If I did try to ride a 19" or a 20" I would have to deal with a WAY extended 27.2mm post! Even at 195lbs, a bike with questionable durability, poor warranty and a hefty price tag, IMO it would not be a wise move for me. Why not 31.6? It seems most of the durable well made frames out there(except for Turner, but he has an XL with a reinforced 21" seat tube) use 31.6. Can anyone shed some light? If I am missing something I apologize...By the way I don't own a Turner either, but since they do offer the XL I would buy the 5 Spot before an ID or Moment, even though I think they are really nice looking bikes.
    I'm 5'11", 195 pounds. I run a Medium Id. Hence a large Id might fit you just right. But you've already excluded Ellsworth from your shortlist for whatever reason (why are you here?). But rather than listening to Steve3 or Damion who like posting negative observations on Ellsworth wouldn't you do better to try one for size ? Or listen to Pete. who's actually experienced problems with Ellsworth frame breakage and resulting negative CS (but reading some of Pete.s' posts might put you off listening to him too) - at least he has put his money where his mouth is and says he has bought a 5-spot. I didn't try a Turner when I bought my Id - I wanted the features that Ellsworth offered and have encountered very positive responses from Ellsworth - I originally ordered a large which was way too big and it was swopped for a medium without any problems and I got a followup call from Ellsworth to make sure everything was fine. So much for poor customer service, but some here (visiting from their home manufacturer forum ?) would consider that exceptional rather than the norm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal
    I'm 5'11", 195 pounds. I run a Medium Id. Hence a large Id might fit you just right. But you've already excluded Ellsworth from your shortlist for whatever reason (why are you here?). But rather than listening to Steve3 or Damion who like posting negative observations on Ellsworth wouldn't you do better to try one for size ? Or listen to Pete. who's actually experienced problems with Ellsworth frame breakage and resulting negative CS (but reading some of Pete.s' posts might put you off listening to him too) - at least he has put his money where his mouth is and says he has bought a 5-spot. I didn't try a Turner when I bought my Id - I wanted the features that Ellsworth offered and have encountered very positive responses from Ellsworth - I originally ordered a large which was way too big and it was swopped for a medium without any problems and I got a followup call from Ellsworth to make sure everything was fine. So much for poor customer service, but some here (visiting from their home manufacturer forum ?) would consider that exceptional rather than the norm.
    I was just being honest about my concerns because Ellsworth would be considered if they offered a larger size. The 19 or 20 is an inch shorter in the top tube and 2 to 3 in the seat tube of most XL's. If they ever made an XL I would seriously consider one(maybe someone will see this post). Anyway wasn't trying to offend but I am 6'4" with long arms and legs. I still don't understand the 27.2mm post size. Does anyone know benefits of this?

  11. #11
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    Try Ellsworth's Technical Support

    Quote Originally Posted by b_tnilc
    I was just being honest about my concerns because Ellsworth would be considered if they offered a larger size. The 19 or 20 is an inch shorter in the top tube and 2 to 3 in the seat tube of most XL's. If they ever made an XL I would seriously consider one(maybe someone will see this post). Anyway wasn't trying to offend but I am 6'4" with long arms and legs. I still don't understand the 27.2mm post size. Does anyone know benefits of this?
    Some Ellsworth owners, myself included, can be a little sensitive due to the volume of unfounded negative posts - I've tried to point folks to a more reasonable source for information in this thread. Anyway you can always approach Ellsworth's Technical Support and/or Customer Service about your questions. My guess is that they've standardized on the 27.2mm seatpost size and related tubing in their design. Plus you can always get a longer stem, a layback seatpost (although Ellsworth specifically says not to), and longer cranks (which would work well with the Id due to the higher BB). Whatever. It's your toy you're looking to get. Please use and enjoy whatever you end up with.

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    For the record, I am not trying to attack anyone...

    It you go to my prior posts, either on the new board or the old, you will see that I do not take part in flaming one ride/rider or attack individuals. As a avid mt. biker, and shop employee, I always try to be helpful. I am not trying to start a "my bike is better than yours" type of thread. I am only trying to get potential owners to make an informed decision.
    Personally, if you are going to offer a warranty replacement, I think the company needs to pony up for what ever is needed to get their riders back on the trail. The last time I warrantied a frame, the shock and the shock mount placement changed, so the company replaced the front triangle, the shock, and all hardware needed to get me riding again. Charging $ for replacement rockers or other bits that are needed is a flawed way to handle CS.
    I personally trust Larry Mettler at Mt. High cyclery, and trust his judgement. His responses to questions over the last year I have been viewing have always been useful. If he was an Ellsworth dealer, and is no longer working with Ellsworth, I believe that it is for a good reason.
    I posted the thread because I thought Tony's responses were way out of line for someone that needs to start handling these issues, instead of flaming on prior/potential customers concerns.
    I am sory for upsetting anyone, but it needed to be done. Later.

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    Ellsworth Warranty Topic

    Damion and Steve3 are entitled to their opinions about Tony Ellsworth, the warranty, the website, etc...as are all the other folks that have posted on this topic which began on the Genaral Discussion page and has been viewed 2,300 times already.

    I can't understand why they and others seem to think that the topic needs to bleed over to the Passion forum, and to the Ellsworth Forum. Ellsworth owners, or potential owners may be naive saps, but I be most of them are computer savy enough to navigate around to other Forums as they see fit, and can find and follow this topic where it started.

    As I said on the Passion Forum, I wonder what the deal is with several particularly zealous authors who seem to feel compelled to spread this issue to other Forums?

    I my self am a naive sap who owns an 02 Truth, an 03 Truth, and an 04 Id, They are awesome bikes that I totally enjoy riding. I only have my own experience which has been positive, and I am happy with my purchases. I also have several other mountain bikes by different manufacturers, and for their specific uses I am happy with them also. Overall, I'm just a happy old fool that loves to race and ride and I don't really care what anyone else rides, nor do I care what they think of what I ride. I just hope they are having as much fun as I am.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Speaking for myself, I brought up this topic for information on Tony's business policies. The extent to which I volunteered info was that i worked for a bike shop and Tony hung up on the manager and owner on several occasions. Next, Ellsworth bikes aren't available anymore around here. Why? They will not deal with the company due to service. Other than that, really, Tony made bizarre posts and stepped in a pile of s**t himself. No one made him do it. He could've carefully planned out his words, yet he didn't. He could've dispelled any lies or rumors, but he didn't. He could've addressed the attacks of his credibility, but he didn't. On top of all of that, dealers and his peers came out to speak, too.

    respectfully, I did post this same message on the passion page: You have the right to not read if you don't like what's here. We have the right to post, as you do and you also have the right to not read any of this, but you still do. We have the right to question a vendor in our small community if we get the chance and we have it. The vendor has the right to defend himself, which he is NOT doing for a reason.

    This is a debate and the evidence against Ellsworth bicycles is mounting.

    2,400 people can't be wrong-this is obviously interesting to someone.
    I live in San Diego County CA, home of Tony E's business. When I was looking for frame, I considered the Truth. I see a lot of Truths on my rides. More than any other boutique brand. I talked to owners and most were very happy with their bikes. I had read all the stories about his business practices and frame problems. I did meet a rider on an XCE who said he did ride a Truth until he broke 2 frames and went with a Turner.

    I've seen his ads in MTB in the early days of FS. I've followed the changes made over the years. The Truth has been tweaked over the years, and I honestly think Tony was trying to find the best pedaling FS bike with all the different changes he made. I have ridden one and it pedaled very nice with little bob. I don't believe he tried to get around the lifetime warranty by making the changes.

    I do believe that the problems started occuring with the 2001 model. Tony stated the fixes for the problems on the response in the General forum. He also blamed the rider, the shock etc. The bottom line was there was a design problem that showed up on some riders. Tony didn't have a weight limit, so he couldn't get around the problem that way. He couldn't make sure everyone who bought one rode only certain types of trails and weighed 145 lbs and didn't do big jumps or drops. He went with a coil shock. Now I can't see buying a lightweight frame and adding a shock that weighs over twice the weight so the frame won't blow through its travel under certain conditions and certain riders. I also believe that some riders who purchased a Truth because it was so light, bought a bike not suited for their riding style. The rider who broke two frames, went with a frame that weighed over a lb. more.

    Now Tony has "solved" the problems with the 2004 model. Well I don't think the rider should have to pay for Tony's R & D over the years by having to pay for his lifetime warranty. In this specific case there was a "design flaw" that was fixed over a period of years and some changes, made the lifetime warranty void. This is why I didn't buy a Truth. The bike was too light for me(185 lb.) if I expected it to last for more than one year over the terrain I ride. I went with a frame that weighed 1/2 lb more with an air shock. I also was turned off by the Limited Lifetime Warranty which other manufacturers honor with an updated model to replace an old outdated part or frame. Well, I wanted to buy a Truth, but just couldn't, and I could't be happier. I do talk to a lot of happy Truth owners on the trail.

  15. #15
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    The way I read this thread is that some people have a problem with 'lifetime warranty', or at least the way it's being explained by TE. I'm from Holland and over here _nobody_ believes anything can be subject to a lifetime warranty, there must be a catch. And with Ellsworth that catch is that only the broken parts are covered, but if they are no longer made/in stock are replaced with current parts. These current parts may not fit your older parts/frame and an upgrade is neccesary. I think it's only fair that the warrantee pays for those while the warranter supplies replacement parts for free.

    Although I also think the manufacturer should have lots of stock parts to service older products. I guess TE does not stock enough or didn't stock enough in the past (when there apparently was a problem with the Truth frame) to earn his reputation. Once you've got that reputation, it's very hard to get rid off. It may even be because of these posts that are started by people trying to warn others of TE's practice.

    Anyway, I was looking into an Ellsworth frame (a Moment), but it has now dropped to the last place on my list due to these posts and the fact that it's the first year it is made. I've also read the other thread where TE responded, but that didn't give me enough confidence to buy a frame without a Dutch dealer. This is all thanks to you Steve3 (or might be if I miss out on a great frame).

  16. #16
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    This is a debate and the evidence against Ellsworth bicycles is mounting.-quote steve3

    What!- take a break from your self-appointed "MTBR.com Ellsworth Trial Case" and go bash on Tomac bikes since your obviously bitter over that. Did you read Bikezilla's comment on this thread? I couldn't agree more!, your crusade is not in the spirit of this forum and I don't think we(Ells. owners) need you to educate us on the evil doings of TE. If someone has directly been screwed by TE, than he/she has a right to ***** on this forum, but why the hell do YOU need to take it so far?

  17. #17
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    The spirit of the forum is to tell a person about their objective experience with something. [/QUOTE]


    Exactly! and your not doing that, your bashing a brand you have no experience with-only second hand. It's not your position to lead this argument and thats the only point I'm making here.

  18. #18
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    Some review might be in order

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    No one is bashing Ellsworth riders and we should all keep an open mind.
    That is a factually incorrect statement. Reference An attack by Pete (who'll claim he was joking). This is not an unprecented attack either. I have personally been attacked in these forums.

    You are the one that chose to propogate your thread in the Passion, General, and Ellsworth (and probably Turner) forums. Are you calling for reinforcements ? After all you have positioned yourself as judge, jury and executioner with regard to Ellsworth customer service problems despite no direct experience. You are hijacking a forum that is out of your realm of possible interest. Perhaps you can take a time-out and look in the mirror and ask - why ? Maybe it will open your mind ? Maybe it won't. Sad.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal
    That is a factually incorrect statement. Reference An attack by Pete (who'll claim he was joking). This is not an unprecented attack either. I have personally been attacked in these forums..
    Holy mackeral you're even more daft than I imagined!

    That was indeed the farthest thing from an attack. It was a joke and if you had bothered to scroll down you would have seen that I helped him out and answered his question. Some "attack," eh?

    Given your past history of posting blatant lies, I guess I shouldn't be too surprised though. If you want to whiine about being "attacked" for posting lies, perhaps you shouldn't lie in the first place. Food for thought.

    Your lies, in case you've forgotten:

    Quote:
    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt1 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal
    Apparently Pete.'s upgrade wasn't so cheap. First he had to appologize to Ellsworth's customer service folks :-O Even though Ellsworth already knew his frame was defective and wanted it back under a recall :-( . </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->
    Are you high or what?

    That's a crock of bullshit. A huge one in fact.
    <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->
    Quote:
    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt1 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal

    I guess Pete didn't want to give it back to get it fixed before he broke it..
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->
    Another lie. That's 2 for 2.
    <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->
    Quote:
    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt1 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal

    Bummer your frame is working so well. Maybe that's just how it's supposed to be.
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->
    You must be drunk or stoned.

    I have no idea how well that frame is working.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

  20. #20
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    Am I daft ?

    My understanding is that you purchased one of the early Truths with a defective rocker that Ellsworth tried to, but failed in certain instances, recall. Your Truth, with the defective rocker, broke. You were understandably upset. Now you have a broken Id ? Why on earth would you get a second one after your negative experiences ?

    I may well be daft, as evidenced by me responding to your posts from time to time. That's your call what you think of my intelligence based on extremely limited information. But I still don't have the Ellsworth tattoo.

    Incidentally I assumed that you meant the "Ellsworth Owner" thing as a joke. Just like your tattoo comment. Again perhaps you might want to review what stands as humour in a forum such as this. Things can easily get misunderstood.

  21. #21

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    Yes, you are daft.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal
    My understanding is that you purchased one of the early Truths.
    Nope.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal
    with a defective rocker
    Nope.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal
    that Ellsworth tried to, but failed in certain instances, recall.
    I've never heard of a recall on defective Truth rockers.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal
    Your Truth, with the defective rocker, broke.
    Nope.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal
    You were understandably upset.
    Nope.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal
    Now you have a broken Id ?
    Nope.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal
    Why on earth would you get a second one after your negative experiences ?
    I wouldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal
    I may well be daft, as evidenced by me responding to your posts from time to time.
    Definitely daft based upon your replies. They are so far from the truth that it's gone beyond funny to sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal
    That's your call what you think of my intelligence based on extremely limited information.?
    Nope. It's based upon numerous posts wherein you display your cluelessness and the challenges you face in the critical thinking department.


    Quote Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal
    But I still don't have the Ellsworth tattoo.
    Yet you still post as if you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal
    Incidentally I assumed that you meant the "Ellsworth Owner" thing as a joke.
    Nice attempt at a backpedal although it fails given your previous claim.

    "That is a factually incorrect statement. Reference An attack by Pete (who'll claim he was joking). This is not an unprecented attack either. "

  22. #22

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    Overall philosophy

    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    will want to read the "Ellsworth warranty" thread that is on the General Discussion board. Pay close attention to how Tony Ellsworth responds to the posts. In this case, it is easy to read between the lines.
    The stories of warranty issues are numerous. In addition, there seems to be a general tendency to deal in half-truths and amiguous information. Case in point: look at the photo of the '04 Id and listed specs on the current website. They show it in "all-mountain" configuration: 6" (or is it 5.75"?) Romic shock, 6" (150mm) Z150 fork, and what look like Nokian 2.3 tires. They list the head angle at 69.5, the bottom bracket at 14", the standover (for a 17") at 31", measured to the middle of the top tube. Good all-mountain specs (although a slightly high BB). Assuming this is a 17" frame, and they measure unsagged (like everyone else on the planet), I would like to know the ACTUAL measurements of the PICTURED bike. I would guess, from personal experience, that the head angle is probably right with that long fork, the bottom bracket is at least 15.5", and the standover at least 34". But would anyone BUY a bike with those specs? The only way to get to the 14" BB and 31" standover is with VERY low profile tires (probably 1.9s), a 5" shock, and probably a 3" fork (which would leave you with wacky geometry and 72+ head angle). So instead, they somehow come up with decent listed specs that cannot occur on an actual bike. And then they introduce the Moment to fix the goof and fill the niche the Id was originally marketed for, without acknowledging the Id's poor "all-mountain" design, or offering dissatisfied Id buyers an upgrade path/price break on the Moment. So, DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE YOU BUY! And anyone who orders any frame without actually seeing one and confirming its published specs/geometry--shame on you. I know, I did it.

  23. #23
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    Besides I really think it makes the Turner fans look like trolls when they come to the EW forum just to post bad news, negative comments about Tony E, and such if they aren't even considering buying an EW. - Bikezilla quote

    You mean like Pete and steve3, at least Pete has firsthand knowledege and a reason to be pissed.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    Besides I really think it makes the Turner fans look like trolls when they come to the EW forum just to post bad news, negative comments about Tony E, and such if they aren't even considering buying an EW. - Bikezilla quote

    You mean like Pete and steve3, at least Pete has firsthand knowledege and a reason to be pissed.
    How do you get through doorways with that enormous chip on your shoulder?

    I'm a "Turner fan" and a "troll" because I share the truth about Ellsworth?

    p.s. What makes me a "Turner fan" as opposed to an "Ibis fan" as opposed to a "Foes fan" etc., etc. etc. and what bearing does that have on the facts regarding Ellsworth?

  25. #25
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    Some responses

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    As far as everything else you say, respectfully, you take this whole thing way too seriously
    Hmmm. How do you know how seriously I'm taking this ? To be pedantic you should say that you think I'm taking this thing way too seriously.


    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    The interested parties are in this now, so let it be. I am NOT the judge, jury, and executioner. Ther disgruntled customers, business associates, and dealers are. Ultimately, we're all the j,j,and e if you want to look at it differently.
    If I understand correctly you are not one of the group of stakeholders that you identify.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    You've never had a bad experience with any product and spoken about it???
    Actually I have. In these forums even. With my experience with Audi's customer service. But it was MY experience that I was relating, not somebody else's.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    In effect, you not purchasing something, or speaking of something makes you the judge, jury, and executioner yourself.
    Agreed. Sort of. The reason, for example, that I don't have a Turner is 'cause I got an Ellsworth. I make no judgement against Turner 'cause I got an Ellsworth and it would be silly of me to get both given my requirements and current stable. Same with getting an Audi instead of a Mercedes, or a Cobalt instead of a Fountain, or whatever. Getting one doesn't necessarily make for a negative judgement of the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Please, lets let bygones be bygones and speak ont he issue of the company because you will not be presenting a case for Ellsworth by talking about me.
    I absolutely agree. And to that end I would try and highlight the area of confusion. You appear to be totally focussed on the customer service/business ethics (perceived) of Ellsworth. Meanwhile owners (and some potential owners ?) are, generally, focussed on the bicycle and how well it functions given the requirements of chosen trails and conditions. Some here can even relate a positive customer service experience which is contrary to the negative ones, many of which are rehashed from years ago, that seem to be given so much more credence. And I fully recognize that a broken Ellsworth, or a frame from any other manufacturer, does not function. But it is very troubling to try and discuss this dichotomy with folks' who are not stake holders in the debate. In a forum designed, I think, for those very stakeholders. And, remarkably, we have had the manufacturer, a major stakeholder, available to help/hinder this debate. Will other manufacturers follow his lead based on the reception he received ? Not if they have any sense.

  26. #26
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    Look Steve, I'm assuming your name is Steve, I don't dispute any of whats been said about TE(at least the firsthand accounts) although some of its hard to believe and I have seen some untrue statements made here. My point to you is why are you so involved, let the people who have firsthand knowledge speak. You said yourself, don't take it so seriously, but you continue to bring up the same stuff. By the way, I think Turners are awesome bikes and I don't think its a Turner vs. Ell. thing at all-I just don't understand why some of you Turner guys are so worried about TE and his business.

  27. #27
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    Oh come on now Pete, we all know your a troll-just kidding. Remember what steve3 said, don't take this so seriously. HeHe

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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    Oh come on now Pete, we all know your a troll-just kidding. Remember what steve3 said, don't take this so seriously. HeHe
    Seriously? I'm laughing my ass off at your claim.

    It's also funny that you apparently can't answer the questions that I posed.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal
    I don't know why but there's a few folks trying to sabotage Ellsworth's business. And Tony Ellsworth has chosen to defend his company in these forums. I would think having the owner of a bike company available in these forums is a net positive, except to those that don't want to hear his point of view.

    Anyway anyone considering an Ellsworth product may get a wider perspective from a lot more folks about the actual products by going to the review section Ellsworth Reviews
    Your take on this issue strikes me as paranoid and defensive. I haven't had much to say in these threads other than to relate my personal experience with Ellsworth's customer service and even then only because Larry Mettler mentioned it and someone else asked for details.

    Ellsworth bicycles ride very well. No dispute there. Some people take issue with Ellsworth's warranty policies, others don't. Fair enough. The warranty policy is what it is and more often than not, customers are treated well by Ellsworth when making warranty claims.

    On the other hand, I find it hard to believe that anyone would find it acceptable for Ellsworth to 1) accuse a legitimate customer with proof of purchase of trying to warranty a stolen frame (that's me) 2) deliberately edit a magazine review in such a way that the conclusion is altered and 3) lie about said magazine review in a public forum.

    Those are the three issues about which I have first-hand knowledge. I also know of several "industry insider" stories which I won't repeat because they are second hand. In any case, I believe the real reason Ellsworth takes so much heat here is not because of problems with the bikes or problems with their warranty policy but because of unethical behavior. I'm dumbfounded that so many people are willing to overlook Ellsworth's ethical lapses just because they have a bike that rides well.
    The glass is twice as large as it needs to be

  30. #30

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    Let's Go Ride!!!!!!

    Seriously.
    Enough!

    You are always going to have happy and unhappy customers. It is impossible to please everyone.

    I am in sales and work my hardest to sell as much as I can and also keep all my customers happy. It is impossible.

    I ride a Truth and love it!!!!!
    Would I buy another? Definitely yes! I love everything about it and would recommend it to others.

    People who are upset are going to complain. Sometimes loudly and to those who don't want to hear it.
    People who are happy usually don't say anything. So we are hearing a lot of the unhappy customers right now.

    If the weather (at least here in Philadelphia) were any better, I would not even be reading this. I would be riding.

    I just want to take my Truth out and RIDE!!!!!!

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    Seriously? I'm laughing my ass off at your claim.

    It's also funny that you apparently can't answer the questions that I posed.

    The relevance is that most of the bashing is coming from Turner owners.
    As far as the chip on my shoulder, I'm not the one bashing another brand.

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    Some Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal
    You appear to be totally focussed on the customer service/business ethics (perceived) of Ellsworth. Meanwhile owners (and some potential owners ?) are, generally, focussed on the bicycle and how well it functions given the requirements of chosen trails and conditions.

    Very few people focus on customer service until they have a problem. Then it's too late. When most people see Lifetime Warranty or Limited Lifetime Warranty, they think it really is Lifetime....and that the limited part has to do with defects in materials or workmanship, abuse, etc....NOT that if there are no parts in stock (evidently no great effort is made to ensure that replacement parts are available) that they will have to pay. That's a form of bait and switch. Get extra sales by offering a Lifetime Warranty but don't honor it.
    I'm currently not in the market for an Ellsworth, but a good friend of mine is looking for a new bike and he's considering an Ellsworth Truth or ID. He asked me what I know about the bikes and the company. I told him that I didn't know much about Ellsworth bikes, but would check MTBR.com and see what I could find.....both positive and negative. Here's a quick summary of my findings here (all based on reviews and posts):

    1) Most Ellsworth owners love the way their bikes look and perform.

    2) The Lifetime warranty isn't really a lifetime warranty. It seems that some people that had frame failures within a given model year were pleased with the service.....some weren't. THe one's that were unhappy about the warranty service was when it was related to the Lifetime Warranty. They were unhappy about paying for frame replacements when it should have been covered for free.

    3) Tony Ellsworth has posted a few times and apparently confirmed the fact that the Lifetime Warranty isn't really a lifetime warranty (it's only lifetime when he has the parts in stock or hasn't changed the model. Well....he changes the model almost every year and stated that he does not focus on stocking replacement parts). THat is not a Lifetime Warranty. It's called bait and switch. Use the lure of a lifetime warranty to close the deal.

    4) When Ellsworth decided to stand up for himself by "speaking for" other manufacturers.......One manufacturer, Sherwood from Ventana, wrote back that he didn't want Ellsworth speaking for him....and then alluded that Ellsworth either caused his own problems or deserved them. "Otherwise, kindly keep me and my company out of your well earned battles...

    Sincerely
    Sherwood"

    I got most of the negative posts from the General Forum....some here. I came here to get more information and noticed that there are some very happy Ellsworth owners. This leads me to believe that Ellsworth does not treat everyone unfairly.....just some.

    The bottom line is that I will recommend against buying an Ellsworth. Good bikes.....questionable service.

  33. #33
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    First Off, im not a current Turner owner, i did, and will again, but not right now. My friend i DH with when at my house in Arizona had a previous generation Dare. long story short he broke it (what a surprise). I only see this guy 1-2 times a year and really like riding with him, but because ellsworth wanted way too much for a whole new dare (nothing could be done with the old one), he ended up trying to DH on a stumpjumper which kind of ruined our day because i had to ride it when i let him use my turner. Jim (my friend) told me that when he called ellsworth's customer service dpt. they treated him like total ****, so he then talked to tony and he treated Jim even worse. I see Tony Ellsworth responsible for ruining my DH fun on vacation and thats my reason for hating him and his company. His business practices are the worst in the industry, just flat out last. As for this thread i think its hilarous. Pete makes me laugh my A$$ off making fun of that stupid $hit truckee

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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    The relevance is that most of the bashing is coming from Turner owners.
    As far as the chip on my shoulder, I'm not the one bashing another brand.
    Why do some fragile types equate sharing the truth, with bashing? If my transmission breaks and it takes the dealer 5 tries to fix it, am I bashing them if I tell someone about that experience?

    On what basis do you make your specious claim that most of the bashing is coming from Turner owners?

    Thanks for even more chuckles.

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ride4Fun
    As an Ellsworth owner I feel our bikes are on par with Chris King quality. A few months after I bought my Ellsworth I got a call from Mrs Ellsworth. She wanted to know how I liked my bike and if there were there any questions.She was very pleasent. To me that was class A customer realations. I have owned 4 other brands and never got a call from the owner.
    You are entitled to think that a follow-up call solves any future ACTUAL warranty issues. Me, I'm not so gullible. I wonder about OVERALL CS treatment, not just individualized cases. And the evidence of Ellsworth's INCONSISTENT CS treatment is legion... right here in MTBR to start, and among my personal friends it has continued. A good friend had a Truth, loved its ride, but it buckled on the downtube from regular use and couldn't be warrantied, accdg to Tony E. Lots of coin made in profit, little returned through CS/warranty issues.

    Here's what I said in the Gen'l Discussions thread:

    former Ells owner who wouldn't buy another... I bought a 1999 Isis, which busted at the swingarm yoke weld. They gave me great CS, a new swingarm w/in a week, no questions asked, didn't have to send the broken one in first, etc. Very smooth. But the kicker really isn't that I got good service -- in fact, EVERY Ells owner should get good service... and that's where the problem lies. The more I followed Ells bikes and talked to current/prior Ells owners, the more I realized that my good CS experience was anomalous at best. That didn't serve Ells very well when I decided to get a longer-travel bike to replace the Isis. Immediately, the Joker was off my list. Pete's experiences with his Id are enough to turn any smart consumer's stomach. The Moment is a cheesy attempt to keep up with Turner and Ventana. Ellsworth do not deserve anyone's business, but unfortunately they get a lot of business. Mainly this is because you don't hear of the vague and shady treatment of warranty issues unless you do research in here BEFORE you order your Ells. And I'm willing to bet that there are many Ells owners who didn't research their choice here in advance.

  36. #36
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    No good

    Amen, this thread's been up top for long enough with same comments in each reply. I think ppl who care get the point boys/girls.
    Now go out and ride (weather permiting) whatever you ride and relax, enjoy life.
    I doubt very much that any of the comments above will stray ppl away from buying an Ells.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TT.
    Amen, this thread's been up top for long enough with same comments in each reply. I think ppl who care get the point boys/girls.
    Now go out and ride (weather permiting) whatever you ride and relax, enjoy life.
    I doubt very much that any of the comments above will stray ppl away from buying an Ells.
    How typically clueless.

    People need to ride and/or relax because they are discussing something that causes you discomfort.

    Silly, yet nonetheless funny.

    Oh well, off to ride soon for my 14th day out of the last 16 days...

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    Why do some fragile types equate sharing the truth, with bashing? If my transmission breaks and it takes the dealer 5 tries to fix it, am I bashing them if I tell someone about that experience?

    On what basis do you make your specious claim that most of the bashing is coming from Turner owners?

    Thanks for even more chuckles.
    I'm fragile because I'm tired of hearing the same stuff over and over. I have no problem hearing firsthand accounts, but you and others continue to bring up the same stuff about TE and your beating a dead horse at this point. By the way, the doorway I use because of the enormous chip on my shoulder might come in handy for you and your inflated head to walk thru.

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    I'm fragile because I'm tired of hearing the same stuff over and over.
    Who is forcing you to read a thread that is causing you distress? Have you no self-control?

    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    I have no problem hearing firsthand accounts, but you and others continue to bring up the same stuff about TE and your beating a dead horse at this point.
    Again, who is forcing you to read a thread that you consider to be "beating a dead horse"?

    Also, if you have no problem with firsthand accounts, why do you have a problem with me sharing my experience? You're contradicting yourself, which at this point is hardly surprising.

    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    By the way, the doorway I use because of the enormous chip on my shoulder might come in handy for you and your inflated head to walk thru.
    What a strange response. If it makes you feel better about yourself, I'm happy for you.

    Cheers.

    p.s. You forgot to answer this question:

    On what basis do you make your specious claim that most of the bashing is coming from Turner owners?

  40. #40
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    Wow,
    I know we've reached flogged dead horse status, but i feel like giving my two cents.

    I've never owned an Ellsworth. I did work as a manager as a shop that sold them, and have ridden them on more than one occasion. It's a nice riding bike BUT...
    They all broke. Or at elast most of them.

    Many of them broke in the same manner, and every time i called Ellsworth, i got the same response: "Wow, I've never heard of that happening!" 4 times in a row on the same failure i heard that. A couple i got warrantied after many calls, a couple i didn't. I did hear the usual runaround crap that other people have mentioned here. Lifetime warranty my ass.

    Other companies i dealt with (some very big, some medium, and a couple other small) were NEVER this hard to deal with. It got to the point to where we refused to sell them and dropped the line. We just felt that we were kind of lying to our customers by saying Ellsworth had a lifetime warranty when it so obviously did not.

    I would never support a company that was so shady in it's practices. There are plenty of good bikes out there to choose from that perform as well as or better than Ellsworth, and all are less money. Bikes aren't status symbols, especially once they fail and the warranty doesn't ring true.

  41. #41
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    As a former Ellsworth customer...

    I may be able to share some insight. First, the issue of the high ratings in the frame reviews. I have seen some very negative reviews posted on Ellsworth products. I have even seen TE respond to them, and then seen the post and response disappear. I was confused by this, until I read in one of TEs posts that they were removed by MTBR because the individual had posted under the current production year, when the original posters' frame was built the previous year. This is an interesting problem, since technically, this is a violation of posting guidlines, even though it's likely that in many cases, a CS issue may not develope until after years end. I would guess that the majority of buyers researching frames look only in the postings for the current year, and that many posters that have had a problem may own a frame from the previous year.
    The only review I ever posted was about 6 months into my Joker ownership, and at that point I was very happy with the frame. In 3.5 years I had 4 warranty issues with the frame. The first was shortly after I built the bike in early 2000 and noticed an alignment problem between the front and rear triangles. The 2nd happened after 1200 miles, a cracked swingarm while I was on a bike vacation in Moab (fortunately on the last day of riding). After that, I had about one failure per year, until in the end, I had gone through 2 swingarms and a mainframe. On the 2nd swingarm, I had to remove some material from a dropout on one side so the rear wheel would align (with EW CS permission). These were cracks, not catasrophic failures. In case any of you are wondering, I weigh about 200lbs. with gear, and do 95% of my riding here in Texas where the terrain is relatively mild. I also noticed that I was constantly bending the rear shock mount bolt (EW CS wanted to charge me for new ones). I finally went to a fastener store, found some partially treaded stainless bolts that I had to shorten, and they still bent. One other problem was the flimsy der. hanger that didn't have a large enough b-tension tab to provide a positive stop for the adjustment screw on my XTR der. When I called EW CS, the guy suggested I use a Sram der. I finally found an aftermarket hanger that a shop had fabbed up to deal with the problem for $30. As far as I know, neither the shock bolt or hanger problems have been addressed, but I'm not sure.
    Customer service was sketchy. For instance, with mainframe warranty issue, I was told that they had the correct size and color mainframe in stock, but couldn't ship it until they got my cracked one. When I called, I found that they had shipped the mainframe they promised me to some one else, and that I could take another color or wait. The last issue was the second swingarm, when I found out that they were changing the design, and that the new swingarms would require a scacer block in order to work with my now '02 mainframe, thus reducing the bikes travel from 6" to 5.5". I was to recieve one of the last swingarms they had for the '02. Then I asked what would happen if my mainframe cracked again, and was told that it would cost me $400. In 3.5 years, I estimate that I was without my main ride for about 4 months total, and spent about $100. on shipping. I had had enough. I ordered a Bullit and put the Joker up for sale as soon as it came back. On the upside, I did clear $850. for the fresh Joker SL w Romic, and I was able to get current replacement parts while I owned the bike.
    The warranty has been discussed in detail. I had been telling anyone who asked about how I thought the EW warranty was "lifetime" for three years-better than the other manufacturers. Then one day pulled out my warranty card and read the fine print-I felt like the Joker. I had never thought to ask about design changes and their effect on claims. Indeed, I never had seen the warranty details until I had paid for the frame and opened the box. One poster has mentioned that he couldn't find a copy of the warranty, even on the web site. I think that if your'e going to put such a significant loophole in a warranty, then it should be available to perspective buyers BEFORE the sale.
    I have operated my own service based business (remodeling contractor) for the past 12 years, and have found that there are a couple of things I do that help prevent customer resentment and dissatisfaction: I clearly state what I am going to do, and then DO it. Secondly, when I do screw up, I OWN it and do the best I can to make it right. I have always thought that the first sign of a loser is when a person blames everything and everyone except himself for his problems. In this case, EW designs the bike, contracts the manufacturer, hires and trains his staff, and markets the products. Regardless of what caused the problems, the buck should stop with him. I am not calling TE a loser, and don't really think that he is. I do think he is in a very difficult situation, and that he is ultimately responsible for it.
    As an afterthought, I can't help but feel that the Joker was simply too lght for me. My Bullit is 32lbs. That's a rider to bike weight ratio of about 6.25 to 1. That's the same ratio as a 140lb. rider on a 22.4lb. bike. I have more fun on my Joker than on anything I've owned before. I'll take the extra 2 lbs. of frame weight and a little extra piece of mind the next time I spend hard earned vaction time and money traveling half way across the country to ride.
    I hope I have impressed at least some of you with the following ideas when researching a product:
    1)Don't base your decisions only on current years reviews.
    2)Read the warranty in full.
    3)Lighter sucks if it lacks durability.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbexx
    I know over 20 Ellsworth owners, including myself. We all love our bikes. No breaks, no problems, no warranty issues, just a great bike.
    I have a hard time believing someone with ONE member post who joined after this thread was started, to say he knows 20 satisfied ellsworth owners. Now I wonder if we IP# trace where you posted from, what the result would be.

  43. #43
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    Oh look, another ellsworth fan who joined the same day...

    he posted support of another fan who also joined the same day he posted in this thread. Talk about lack of credibility.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ride4Fun
    Great post couldn't of said it better. As an Ellsworth owner I feel our bikes are on par with Chris King quality. A few months after I bought my Ellsworth I got a call from Mrs Ellsworth. She wanted to know how I liked my bike and if there were there any questions.She was very pleasent. To me that was class A customer realations. I have owned 4 other brands and never got a call from the owner.

    So lets just go out there ride what ever we want and stop bashing.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    he posted support of another fan who also joined the same day he posted in this thread. Talk about lack of credibility.
    This story is not unbelievable. Cathy called me about a week after I received my new swingarm to make sure everything was OK. My experiences w/ Ellsworth customer service has been nothing but exceptional. I had neglected to fill out my warranty card and they took my info over the phone and validated my warranty on the spot. My new swingarm came in 4 days w/ new bearings, pivot bolt and Shock mounting bolts. They called to follow up with me and they have been very responsive answering all my badgering questions about the Moment. My orders for accessories (Pilsner glasses mostly) have always shipped promptly and correctly.

    I think it is time for ya'll to leave it alone. If you don't like Tony Ellsworth or his product then don't buy them. Feel free to post your personal experiences and opinions but don't start attacking posters here.
    Nothing to see here.

  45. #45
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    RE: Anyone considering an Ellsworth bike...

    As a former Truth owner that broke 3 times ( of those requiring a 300.00 upgrade charge) and now a 2 plus year owner of an unbroken Id..(frame # 42 I think) I've read all these posts just to see where this is going. ( 225-235 lb rider)

    Just for general info. Probably about 80 people had test ridden my Truth during the the two years I owned it, they all were aware of the failures.
    Each failure was taken care of without much trouble.( other than the 300.00 upgrade for the later style finish)
    It took me one week to sell that frame to a local guy when I decided to get the Id. Since then( last 3 years or so) I can show you about 25 more EW owners within 50 miles of me.

    Yes, some have broke their Truths...( 3 or 4)none of them have gotten rid of them after getting whatever warranty they got... my local shop took on EW just after I got the Id in late 2001 and now have sold about 20 frames or bikes.

    EW may have really sucked at times for how they have processed "warranty" but their bike population continues to grow here.

    Am I aware of any other frames breaking over the past 3 years?
    Let's see... Specialized (some riders several times), Cannondales, Gt's,Orange, Rocky Mountain,Giant, etc... the list goes on.

    Some of those were taken care of without much troble, others have taken months.

    My point:

    Many bikes break, some have good warranty replacement experiences some don't from each brand, not just EW.

    I think at this point, the value of my Id may taken a dive over the past few days. Bad news travels 10 times as far and fast as good news.

    The horse is dead, mission accomplished, put down the sticks.
    ( rest well knowing that you may have saved some of the potential EW buyers of the world some possible grief down the road)

    ps.. I'm not defending Tony E.
    It's just that I and many more local riders are very happy with the EW bikes, including the two that will buy new ones soon.

    Tony, should hire a good PR departement/spoksperson and refrain from making comments here.

    * I'm looking for my money from thet very first Id review posted, that I did long ago, why is it that as a registered owner I never got a notice about payment for reviews. ( who can show me how to get my money?)

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redriderpro
    The horse is dead, mission accomplished, put down the sticks.
    ( rest well knowing that you may have saved some of the potential EW buyers of the world some possible grief down the road)
    I do not think it's going to be THAT easy, bud
    We have a couple of HARDCORES in here

    Quote Originally Posted by Redriderpro
    * I'm looking for my money from thet very first Id review posted, that I did long ago, why is it that as a registered owner I never got a notice about payment for reviews. ( who can show me how to get my money?)
    what $$$, I want mine toooooooo

  47. #47
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    not any more. already got one...

    my research yielded different conclusion compared to what you are suggesting...


    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    will want to read the "Ellsworth warranty" thread that is on the General Discussion board. Pay close attention to how Tony Ellsworth responds to the posts. In this case, it is easy to read between the lines.

  48. #48
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    hmm, should i feel like a retard now that you are trying...

    to "open my eyes" with your bashing?

    i dont care what you think about Tony E. You dont even own E. bike. When the time comes, if it ever comes i will deal with problems with my bike. You stated your case and now it is time to rest the case...

    please go away and let us talk about biking and our bikes.. obviously you are not contributing in that direction...

  49. #49
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    '...I'm not mad because I don't have one...."

    it is fine, you dont have to be defensive...

  50. #50
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    you have stated your case

    there is no need to repeat yourself. there is no need to come to Ellsworth board to repeat yourself again.

    even if you are doing it from best intentions, it looks a bit biased...

    that is my answer to your questions... hope it helps

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    and what is forcing you to come back here...

    and talk about same issues time and again? we heard you. thanks for your concern. can we please leave the issue where it is. let us deal with our problems when and if they come...

    really, do you complain about car problems like you complain about bike issues?

  52. #52
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    you are one sick puppy sir...

    may god help you...

  53. #53
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    i am pretty sure that most of 2500+ viewers

    are laughing at you by now... so your Tomac is broken and you are soothing your pain by letting all the world know that Ellsworth is even worse in your opinion?

    sigh...

  54. #54
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    Bravo??? hehe, you guys must be stroking each other

    when there is no power to run your computers...

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    please tell us about your experience with Tomac...

    i'd really l ike to know...

  56. #56
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    i am happy for you knowing that you have clues...

    for everything..or i should say everything related with Ellsworth.

    if only i can be as smart as you are...

    <snif>

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    of course you couldnt have made your case better, i mean worse...

    i did call Ellsworth and asked them same question , i even went step further and called Progressive Suspension and got similar and very reasonable answers from both companies that made lot of sense. I am happy now knowing that this is the way shock should be installed. I also had quite a few questions and i called Ellsworth before i purchased the bike and they always picked up the phone and answered them all in informative and friendly manner. i did have a feeling i was dealing with the company that cares about it customers. Obviously, before i purchased the bike i did lot of research including this board and including your posts.

    The fact that you are so adamant in bashing Ells and at the same time you are having issues with different manufacturer and don’t even own Ellsworth gave you little to none credibility.

    You are saying that I bought this bike and because it's warranty? How do you know? Are you a psychic? Probably not, but you gave yourself " Mr. Know it all" title. If you had Ells and had issues with it and had to deal with Ells CS etc, it would have respected your opinion much more, like in Pete's case.

    I didn’t buy this bike because it's warranty. Honestly, I couldn’t care less about the warranty. I expected it to be about the same as all other major manufacturers. I don’t expect Ells to replace my broken frame if it breaks after a 6 foot drop or if I hit the tree. If Truth is used for purpose that is different from what it is built for, it will break, and so will any other bike.

    People who want to have light all mountain bike and buy Truth are making the wrong move. There is no excuse for that.

    I purchased this bike after riding my friends Truth few times. The Truth is the only bike that came so close to my (now sold) hard tail titanium frame with regards to performance. I intend to participate in 4 24 hours events this year and this bike came on the top of my list after couple of months of research.

    My car warranty is 4 years, but it still doesn’t cover everything. And it definitely doesn’t cover the damage done by the owner slamming it in the tree or driving it down the stairs. Why is it so hard for you to understand that.

    IF you talked about your Tomac experience and taking the thread all over MTBR, no one would be harping on you. Including me. But by your own admission, you had problem with Tomac and you started looking into other Manufacturers' issues... Why? To make you feel better? Why don’t you share issues you are having with Tomac and how well they are treating you?

    I have nothing personal against you. I am new to this board and I don’t have any prejudice. But I can speak for myself and I will always straight forward tell you how I feel.

    You are not being reasonable and you are hurting your image on this board. I didn’t check your profile nor I was looking for your other posts. I judged you by only what I read in these couple of threads. Think about it. What are you trying to achieve?

    Ellsworth has a solid customer base and people like you will not sway many potential customers away.

    Don’t be a smart ass. You have stated your case many times. I am frankly saying "thank you" to you for giving me heads up, but enough is enough. By continuing to beat the dead horse, you are hurting your case. I am sure there are many more people who think this way buy just don’t bother to tell you. Maybe I just wasted few minutes of my life on something that can not and will not change. please prove me wrong...

    By the way, I really hope you work out your issues with Tomac. After all this board is about fun that we have with our bikes, no matter who made them. I hope you will agree with at least that.

    I wish I could invite you for a beer. Life is too short to waste it on arguing about stupid things.

  58. #58

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    Very Mature!

    [QUOTE=Pete]How typically clueless.

    Nice!!! Let's start name calling. A little childish, don't you think?

    We are just stating that you are beating a dead horse.
    We all get your points.
    Now that you have stated them to everyone 10 times, let's move on.

    I don't know what your deal is but you, STEVE3 and DAMION are all over the forums spouting off about Ellsworth. I have seen posting on PASSION, GEN. DISC., WHAT BIKE TO BUY, and here.

    Thank You for informing others about your concerns. That is why we have the forums but now it just seems like bashing.

    If you don't like Ellsworth, don't buy one. Though, I love my Truth.
    Thank you again for trying to inform others but MOVE ON!!!!!!!

  59. #59
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    so you think you can talk the talk?

    sorry to burst your bubble, not only you can't walk the walk but you can't even talk the talk... if you know what i mean... so here we go again:


    Quote Originally Posted by steve3: and...
    Ruining my credibility? What did I submit to the thread? Tell me what facts of my own Ellsworth experience did I submit? One can make the conclusion from all the posts that there's a problem and that's what I did.
    that is one of your problems. you dont even own Ells bike. You didnt even deal with Ells CS. you NEVER had problems with Ells. You have NO EXPERIENCE with Ells. everything you talk is second hand. some of it is from reliable sources, but for you it all is second hand. What is up with that? you talk more about the bike you dont own then about the bike you own. You didnt have problems with bike you dont own and you are having problems with bike you own. So if you want to talk tough, talk about your broken Tomac. unless you have first hand experience with Ells , your talk does not have credibility and sounds like bashing and spam.


    Quote Originally Posted by steve3: and...
    if you came to the opposite conclusion, you're simply looking the other way in the face of facts. I'm not making a case. The fact of the matter which you misinterpreted is I'm looking for another bike and Ellsworth was an option, so I researched into it here. I saw there were some questions, so I wanted to know for myself. Now I know. That's restatement and if you read properly, you'd know that. Don't twist words around because if there's credibility to be given here, it's not to you in this case.

    what are you talking about. I own Ells bike and i dealt and still deal with Ells CS trying to educate myself as i am coming from hard tail group. i have first hand experience both with the bike and the Ells CS. you have no experience with them. what you talk is just your interpretation of the stuff you stumbled upon during your research. if you dont like Ells, dont buy it. you will do all of us a favour. so far you didnt lose anything that you can blame on Ells, so what makes you a martyr whose only goal in life is to sling mud at Ells???? i hope you will have more luck with whatever maker you go than you had with your Tomac.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3: and...
    You also make the insinuation to owners of broken EW bikes that they rode into a tree or abused them in some way.
    MY POST SAID:
    I don’t expect Ells to replace my broken frame if it breaks after a 6 foot drop or if I hit the tree.

    I SAY:
    obviously, your facts are wrong and you are making your own wrong conclusions. another proof that you dont have credibility.




    Quote Originally Posted by steve3: and...
    As far as my image here, this is the internet. You can't have an "image" on one of these boards and if I did, I wouldn't care. Image is reserved for real life and this board is for information.

    i suppose you are right. you dont care about your image on this board. if you do, you wouldnt have been doing what you are doing. information that you are posting lately at least regarding Ells is worth nothing. since you dont care about your image on this board, all other posts are probably in the same category. you can always change your handle and start clean... i suggest that...


    Quote Originally Posted by steve3: and...
    As far as the rest of the stuff, sure, we should all be friends here, but some people jump the gun to attack others and I didn't attack you. You were nowhere to be found and then all of a sudden you spam the boards in the middle of night and then now you lead into a freindly ending to your previous post about my lack of credibility by calling me a smart ass? You can't have both ways.

    when i challenge your posts i am spamming? really? i think your posts are spam and i dont know why i am wasting my time on you. obviously you are not worth it. otherwise, once you stated your case you would have moved on. but you have your own agenda with Ells. that is fine. go crazy as far as i am concerned.


    Quote Originally Posted by steve3: and...
    If you want to be friendly, be friendly, if not, continue attacking me and spamming the boards. There are already plenty of people that were unhappy with me about the thread that have gone back to life as normal and we're having friendly talks on other boards.

    i dont know you. and i am not attacking you but your posts. Stop beating the dead horse and we all will move on. if you find something new about Ells, please let us all know. since your first post about Ells, you didnt say anything new on the topic.

    thats all...
    Last edited by osokolo; 02-07-2004 at 07:17 PM. Reason: visual

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    sorry to burst your bubble, not only you can walk the walk but you cant even talk the talk... if you know what i mean... so here we go again:


    YOU SAY:
    Ruining my credibility? What did I submit to the thread? Tell me what facts of my own Ellsworth experience did I submit? One can make the conclusion from all the posts that there's a problem and that's what I did.

    I say: that is one of your problems. you dont even own Ells bike. You didnt even deal with Ells CS. you NEVER had problems with Ells. You have NO EXPERIENCE with Ells. everything you talk is second hand. some of it is from reliable sources, but for you it all is second hand. What is up with that? you talk more about the bike you dont own then about the bike you own. You didnt have problems with bike you dont own and you are having problems with bike you own. So if you want to talk tough, talk about your broken Tomac. unless you have first hand experience with Ells , your talk does not have credibility and sounds like bashing and spam.


    YOU SAY:
    if you came to the opposite conclusion, you're simply looking the other way in the face of facts. I'm not making a case. The fact of the matter which you misinterpreted is I'm looking for another bike and Ellsworth was an option, so I researched into it here. I saw there were some questions, so I wanted to know for myself. Now I know. That's restatement and if you read properly, you'd know that. Don't twist words around because if there's credibility to be given here, it's not to you in this case.

    I SAY:
    what are you talking about. I own Ells bike and i dealt and still deal with Ells CS trying to educate myself as i am coming from hard tail group. i have first hand experience both with the bike and the Ells CS. you have no experience with them. what you talk is just your interpretation of the stuff you stumbled upon during your research. if you dont like Ells, dont buy it. you will do all of us a favour. so far you didnt lose anything that you can blame on Ells, so what makes you a martyr whose only goal in life is to sling mud at Ells???? i hope you will have more luck with whatever maker you go than you had with your Tomac.

    YOU SAY:
    You also make the insinuation to owners of broken EW bikes that they rode into a tree or abused them in some way.

    MY POST SAID:
    I don’t expect Ells to replace my broken frame if it breaks after a 6 foot drop or if I hit the tree.

    I SAY:
    obviously, your facts are wrong and you are making your own wrong conclusions. another proof that you dont have credibility.




    YOU SAY:
    As far as my image here, this is the internet. You can't have an "image" on one of these boards and if I did, I wouldn't care. Image is reserved for real life and this board is for information.

    I SAY:
    i suppose you are right. you dont care about your image on this board. if you do, you wouldnt have been doing what you are doing. information that you are posting lately at least regarding Ells is worth nothing. since you dont care about your image on this board, all other posts are probably in the same category. you can always change your handle and start clean... i suggest that...

    YOU SAY:
    As far as the rest of the stuff, sure, we should all be friends here, but some people jump the gun to attack others and I didn't attack you. You were nowhere to be found and then all of a sudden you spam the boards in the middle of night and then now you lead into a freindly ending to your previous post about my lack of credibility by calling me a smart ass? You can't have both ways.

    I SAY:
    when i challenge your posts i am spamming? really? i think your posts are spam and i dont know why i am wasting my time on you. obviously you are not worth it. otherwise, once you stated your case you would have moved on. but you have your own agenda with Ells. that is fine. go crazy as far as i am concerned.


    YOU SAY:
    If you want to be friendly, be friendly, if not, continue attacking me and spamming the boards. There are already plenty of people that were unhappy with me about the thread that have gone back to life as normal and we're having friendly talks on other boards.

    I SAY:
    i dont know you. and i am not attacking you but your posts. Stop beating the dead horse and we all will move on. if you find something new about Ells, please let us all know. since your first post about Ells, you didnt say anything new on the topic.

    thats all...
    Some Advice: Learn to use this forum for replying. Your blind posts are hard to follow and that means they don't get read.

    When replying to a post, click on the on the lower right of the particular post and the text of the post will be included so we can tell exactly who you are rebutting.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    Some Advice: Learn to use this forum for replying. Your blind posts are hard to follow and that means they don't get read.

    When replying to a post, click on the on the lower right of the particular post and the text of the post will be included so we can tell exactly who you are rebutting.

    i tried as best as i could. i did use "reply" button. in my rebuttal i was using steve's original statements...

    next time i will try to do better job.

    heck, i might even do it fancy way if i have enough time
    hehe

  62. #62

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    [QUOTE=Little Frog]
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    How typically clueless.

    Nice!!! Let's start name calling. A little childish, don't you think?
    Not childish, just the truth. It is clueless to assume others need to ride or relax because they are discussing something that causes the poster discomfort.


    Quote Originally Posted by Little Frog
    If you don't like Ellsworth, don't buy one. Though, I love my Truth.
    Thank you again for trying to inform others but MOVE ON!!!!!!!
    You stupid fock, I already bought two.

    Here's a hint for you to make your little froggy world more comfortable:

    If these threads continue to threaten your well-being and cause you distress, grow a backbone and learn to resist the apparently overwhelming urge that you have to click on them.

    If you can't do that, find someone to explain to you what "discussion" means as it relates to a discussion board.

    Good luck!

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete

    You stupid fock
    Now Sir, that is discussion...

    sigh....

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    Thank you for proving my point!

    This has turned into quite a "discussion".

  65. #65
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    No good

    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    ( from an even newer thread) Let me set the record straight. I have been reading everything I can get my hands on regardin Mt bikes for 12 years. For a large part of that time, I have lusted over Ellsworth bikes. I have always wanted one, but was never in a position to drop that kind of coin. For the last few years, I have been working at the Largest shop in Alaska, helping with bicycle sales/ wrenching/ and general info questions. I firmly support small manufacturers like Ellsworth, Turner, Intense, and so on, but mot at the expense of customer service. In my mind, the way that some individuals have been dealt with regarding broken/cracked frames is unacceptable. Imo, if you have a legit warranty complaint, you should have replaced what is needed to get your bike back to running order. (I recently had a cracked front triangle from a major manufacturer, and that company provided me with a brand new, Float RL along with the warranty triangle, without looking at the bottom line in $) I am not trying to bash any company or individual. I am only trying to do what I am always trying to do. Be helpful. Go back and do a search of my other postings. Sorry if you are taking my postings the wrong way, but I still think that any new buyers of certain bikes need to be able to make an informed decision. When I posted a cross reference, I had no Idea it was going to take a life of it's own. Later.
    Was this really an apologie, or just another rehash of why you feel the way you do? Don't think another thread was necessary so that is why I copied it here--where it belongs.

    This is an apologie?
    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    Sorry if you are taking my postings the wrong way,...
    And do you not think ahead, in that people may respond negatively to your opinion?

    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    When I posted a cross reference, I had no Idea it was going to take a life of it's own.
    It's hilarious that you can say this in a whole new thread. What if this thread "takes a life of it's own?" Will you apologize for that?

  66. #66
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    The Long and Short About the Ellsworth Warranty

    The long and short about the Ellsworth Warranty

    The Short—
    THE WARRANTY. Resolving accusations our warranty not being honored is about making the facts available to everyone. The warranty, is available on our website: (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2...20WarrCard.pdf) Anyone interested in the facts can read it for themselves, instead of reading only hearsay and rumors. The execution of the warranty has been directly in line with what is written.

    THE ADVERTISING. As to the allegations of false advertising claims that the warranty is something other then has been practiced, etc.? I’ve added an “ad archive” of every ad we’ve placed in North American media, since ‘99/’00 (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/ellsworthianway/index.cfm) You can check it out for your self rather then take everything you read in a MTBR discussion board for fact without checking it out on your own.

    The Long—the rest of the story:

    CUSTOMER SERVICE. First, I appreciate customers taking time to relate their positive experiences in the discussion board. Sony did a study in the 80’s every customer service manager knows like scripture. It goes something like this:

    For every satisfied customer, 1 out of 10 will tell of their satisfaction 1 time. On the other hand, 10 out of 10 dissatisfied customers will tell no less then 10 people of their dissatisfaction…10 times!

    As for allegations or accusations of bad customer service. I have three things to say:

    First, no one is perfect, though we’re constantly striving at Ellsworth, no one there has given up taking care of our customers and dealers.

    Second, If there are 10 dissatisfied customers on MTBR (count the negative posts usernames, it’s not that diverse) they are telling 10 times the same dissatisfaction. Your hearing it 10 times amplified. On the other hand, the 10 satisfied Ellsworth owners represent hundreds of satisfied customers.

    Third, You need to know that there’s more to the story that you’re not going to hear from the dissatisfied guy claiming he was treated poorly. Here’s a couple special ones—ask yourself which parts of the story you actually read about on the discussion boards:

    Example #1. What you read in posts: Kid with Joker, warranted seven times. What you don’t hear: Come to find out his friends were taking turns dropping it off the garage roof to the driveway busting it—why not their own bikes? Because “Ellsworth has a lifetime warranty” was the answer. “Our bikes don’t.”

    Example #2. What you don’t hear: Guy drops bike on rock while lifting it over fence when it’s pretty new. Dents downtube—sends us a picture, we say, we’d watch it, but wouldn’t recommend buying a replacement right away, though it undoubtedly is a stress riser, he may ride it for years without any problems, and he could always buy a replacement at some time in the future if it became necessary. He actually posts on MTBR that he rides the heck out of it, and even despite the big dent he put in it, it’s holding up great for multiple seasons. Original dent eventually does generates stress cracks. He wants it warranted for free. He’s mad because he has to pay for replacement parts—What you read on discussion board is a rant on MTBR—flaming company for weak bikes and bad customer service.

    Example #3. Guy buys bike used, sight unseen, (MTBR, Ebay…buyer beware) bike breaks. He’s second owner—no applicable warranty. Shock that it came with isn’t a Truth part number, too short, worn out. He is offered to buy replacement parts and shock at a deep discount. He’s mad because he didn’t get shock (wear component) and frame (not original owner) for free. Flames us for not honoring warranty on a used bike and a wear component.

    Example #4. Here’s a super reasonable case I just handled myself as it isn’t very common and I didn’t want any misunderstandings about what was to be done: Three year old front triangle failure. Not current version or technology of the Truth—no like parts in stock to warranty with. Despite the fact that our destructive testing and accumulated research shows a better then 90% correlation with under inflated shock, or hydraulic lock due to lockout left on, or worn out air shock, heavier riders and large frames. User set up is considered the owner/operator responsibility—as stated in warranty and owners manual and FAQ on website. In spite of this, we are willing to warranty the front triangle with a brand new one to the original owner no charge, once with an explanation letter about shock set up and use. However, shock lengths and rockers have changed (longer shock for lower shock shaft velocity and lower leverage ratio rockers to ease the demand on the shocks—specifically benefits heavier riders ride quality and increases durability). Owner is offered to replace his three year old and likely worn out shock for dealer cost, and purchase the new rocker assembly for a deep discount off what it would be at retail (necessary to accommodate the newer shock, if something like this had happened within the first year, we’d have provided the rocker at no charge). Cost to upgrade entire frame after three years of regular use to a brand new 2004 Truth…approximately $500. Or you could look at it as a $1,500 credit toward a brand new frame (“current technology” warrantee language).

    Let’s take this last example and look at it, because here in lies a few of the frustrations with the current warranty that I am aware of. I am aware of three of these situations where I was unable to come to a meeting of the mind with the owner. Never the less, I did what was disclosed clearly in the warranty. I don’t know how to remedy the hard feelings, as what was done above is exactly what the warranty states would be done.

    This is where that whole bad rap about customer service and not honoring warranty on MTBR came from in the first place I think. This doesn't happen like this very often. But when it does, most of the time, folks are ecstatic about $500 for a brand new frame. Occasionally, someone is indignant about the $500--didn't read the warranty, or maybe doesn't understand products must evolve and change to become better over the years, like software, cars, ovens, motorcycles, shoes, and yes...bikes. And they continue to rant and complain on MTBR so that you'd think the whole world has broken Ellsworth's...and Ellsworth blows them off when it happens. These rants are half-truth’s of a vocal few. As to the idea that I change products to avoid warranty that’s ridiculous. You can categorize the number of times product evolutions have happened and recognize these MTBR rants if you know what incompatibilities have happened in the last decade. The allegation that I change products so I don’t have to warranty, or can make money by selling current parts at a deep discount them is untrue. Only a very small percentage of the bikes we ship world wide ever have problems, why would I spend the 18 months of R&D and the cost of retooling JUST to skirt coughing up a few free frames to warranty in the course of the year? The concept propagated by several discussion board mavens is preposterously confused and lacks any mathematical, numeric, or financial reason whatsoever.

    Here is an actual list of the product changes that involve some degree of incompatibility, only one is complete incompatibility, and we offered upgrade programs to help. Check it out.

    1996 Truth’s changed from 80mm of travel to 100mm of travel. Front triangle and shock changed so that if you had a front triangle warranty on a bike before 1997, you had to buy a new shock at dealer cost to make the frame go again. For new shock at dealer cost, you got more travel, Easton tubes, lighter stiffer stronger frame, and brand new shock.

    2000 Truth’s changed completely for the first time in almost 8 years. We maintained warranty replacements until about 2002—then parts just ran out. At that time we offered a half price upgrade to the new Instant Center Tracking, cartridge-bearing Truth to any Ellsworth owner to keep them on current and warrantee-able parts. We took a lot of heat from dealers on that, who expressed their concerns that these folks upgrading should’ve been back to the dealer to buy the new bikes, as the old one’s were likely worn out and should be replaced at the dealer. We continued to offer the half price upgrade well through
    2002. And dropped it to about a 35% discount the next year. By then the bikes being upgraded were well over three years old and not current technology, though there are still many of these old Truth’s out there that are loved and work great, and I still maintain inventory of service parts (bushing pivot kits available on website).

    2004 Truth’s started shipping in mid 2003 utilizing the longer shocks and lower leverage ratio rockers. (better ride quality, especially for heavier riders, increased durability due to lower leverage ratio).

    2002 Id’s got a new disk specific seat stay. 2001 (first year) had canti stays. Both worked great, but the disk specific stay was in high demand. We offered the opportunity for owners to upgrade at about 40% discount. Again took heat from dealers, AND took heat from owners who asserted that it was better then the old stay (which worked fine) and therefore the old stay was defective and we should give them the new stay for free—that the upgrade charge was greedy! Most people were glad to have the opportunity to upgrade the bike to disks and more tire clearance for a couple of hundred bucks. This had no affect on how Id’s were or are warranted. What you read on MTBR is the old stay was defective (not true) and we were charging to replace defective stay. The fact was the upgrade was optional—not mandatory, and the canti-boss stay worked as designed and intended on the original bike. Upgrade offer was optional.

    2003 Joker gets major upgrade after four years of production. Longer Travel, stiffer, stronger, etc.. Original owner gets upgraded on any part that fails, but would have to potentially buy a shock for it to get the full benefit of the new design.

    That’s it! I think in each case the upgrade path is more then valuable for the associated cost, IF ANY that might be applicable. The above is the ENTIRE story of how warranty is handled if parts have evolved. No more complicated then that. Again, if you read something that deviates much from the above—ask yourself what part of the story your not reading on the discussion board.

    In the last four years, we have made more alterations, or improvements to the Truth then we did in the first 6 years of production. Mostly because we sell more, and the companies resources for R&D have made it possible to break new ground with the suspension technology, which is why when you get your new '04 Ellsworth, your just going to LAUGH at the mass media frenzy stuff…concerning the “newest” suspension system. And ask yourself “what’s the possibility the “latest, greatest, newest” design will still be here in it’s current form in 5-10 years like the Instant Center Tracking four bar link has been.”

    Is there a problem understanding the warranty? I’m not sure. Please take a look at the warranty on our websites FAQ section, or at the direct links above and below and email me what you think at warranty @ellsworthbikes.com. I do think the current warranty is more complex to administrate then other warrantees, I think this stems mostly from my desire to stand behind the craftsmanship of the frame for the lifetime of the frame. Unfortunately, this gets complicated—I admit. Here's why the current warranty is potentially complicated, and may well be flawed if it’s so commonly misunderstood:

    First, let's say a guy is using the frame pretty hard. Which is OK, but his use is going to fatigue the material faster then another's use that might be more on the XC end of things. “A Truth is NOT a free ride frame.” You can see by definition alone, prescribed, or designed use is very difficult to define--what is XC? What is Freeride?...etc. No human can define it the same twice and agree with another human. Thus, I've determined that in this respect, my "lifetime" warranty is flawed and probably impossible to administrate without pissing people off at some point.

    Second, it is impractical if not impossible to spend time and oh so little precious financial resources to manufacture and inventory parts for every Truth I've made in the last 10 years. If I never changed or improved on them, no one would want them. If I change or improve it, sometimes there is incompatibility. In MY mind (again, not everyone would agree, though many have) the opportunity to ride the heck out of a truth for three years and get a BRAND new one for a deep discount is a GREAT deal. Again, think of another industry... Drive the heck out of an off road truck, and get a new one for half price! What a deal! But again, not everyone agrees with me. However, many owners have taken advantage of this to keep fresh equipment--that causes troubles with Dealers who want to sell new stuff at full price when a person has worn out the old frame (lifetime doesn’t mean it can’t be worn out). And you can WEAR OUT a Truth...although almost everything on it can be maintained, if there are parts available. It is the lifetime of the frame...and though the warranty specifically states that if the replacement part isn't available (or that frames lifetime is over) a "credit towards current product will be issued", folks get mad that we did EXACTLY what the warranty says we would do...!? In this respect also, the perception of my warranty causes problems and misunderstandings.

    Change the warranty?
    Help us decide. The warranty is for you—I want to give the owners and prospective owners what they want. If the warranty changed to a strait two years, then if we exceed expectations, folks will be happy. As it is now, due primarily to the two issues above, we risk falling short of someone's expectations on what is a generous and liberal warranty in this industry (read the collection of industry warranties in FAQ section of www.ellsworthbikes.com see links). Pretty much ALL or ANY manufacturing defect, or material defect shows up within the first year. After that, it's probably fatigue, or misuse, or something. And for the few rare times it's clearly a defect of some kind--even if it's outside 2 years--won't the guy be happy that we stepped up and honored it anyway out of warranty?!

    I know in my heart, and have verified with destructive testing and by FEAing others designs up and applying the same dynamic loading to my designs and theirs that Ellsworth bikes are more durable for the prescribed use then any in the industry by as much as double. AND they are all lighter then the same prescribed use bikes of other brands...that’s something we’re proud of and it is proof of some sweet and expensive engineering, design and materials. But nothing lasts forever, and while I'm perfectly willing to do a lifetime of the product warranty—will owners read warranty so they don’t just end up pissed off when the situation arrives that they've gotta buy replacement parts to keep it good? Please help us decide: [email protected]

    Just like my wonderful Dodge Diesel Truck. 90,000 miles of wonderful service, and I need new shocks for the second time, new springs, a bed liner...a door seal, a dome light switch--stuff needs maintenance. It's a scientific fact called atrophy, right? Bike frames are not exempt from this. Any way, when a man thinks about it like this, it's all good. But too often, as this discussion board seems to attest to folks have had false expectations concerning the warranty. And it does makes me sad, because I care, and my staff cares, and we do our level best to take care of our customers.

    Currently, the discussion boards are not an efficient way to collect honest and insightful opinions. It would be great if they could be, but that’s not what I’m seeing in the discussion boards at this time. So you’ll need to collect your thoughts and email them to [email protected].

    *Download the ads—see there’s no misrepresentation (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/ellsworthianway/index.cfm);
    *Download the current warranty, let me know if any of it is unclear or if you think the way we’re handing or have handled warrantees is not inline with what we said we’d do (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2...20WarrCard.pdf);
    *Check out this collection of sample industry warrantees http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/S...Warranties.pdf ) how do these compare to the Ellsworth Warranty?
    *Finally, take a look at my potentially “more easily interpreted warranty” (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2...20WarrCard.pdf). Is this a better, clearer warranty?

    Email me your thoughts: [email protected]

    I value your input, as Ellsworth owners, as potential owners, or even if your not interested in an Ellsworth just as a fellow cyclist. I’m listening to your input and opinions to make owning a bike with my name on it a splendid experience. Even if you’re ranting on the discussion boards, and profess to know me well enough to hate me, I invite you to harness that energy and email me insightful and honest opinions about the material I’ve made available for everyone’s review. Include your contact information; the most useful suggestions or comments may receive a token of my appreciation for participating in providing valuable focus on the potential improvements or upgrades to the Ellsworth Warranty.

    In the end, it's about making people happy, healthy, and able to enjoy the planet in an environmentally healthy way. I'm a firm believer that a man reaps what he sews, and when I'm done on this planet, I will be pleased in the knowledge that I've sewn seeds of making many people healthy and happy, and not obliterated the planet in the process.

    I really appreciate your expressing your views, and your willingness to consider what I've put in print here. I remain available to any suggestions you might have to make the experience better. Thanks in advance for your time and consideration in this matter.

    Sincerely,
    Tony Ellsworth

  67. #67
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    what chip Pete?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    How do you get through doorways with that enormous chip on your shoulder?

    I'm a "Turner fan" and a "troll" because I share the truth about Ellsworth?

    p.s. What makes me a "Turner fan" as opposed to an "Ibis fan" as opposed to a "Foes fan" etc., etc. etc. and what bearing does that have on the facts regarding Ellsworth?
    what are you trying to prove here? are you trying to tell me something i dont know? as i said previously, you have stated your case. jury was out and delivered it's verdict.

    you have bike you are happy with now, dont you? you told us your story and i personally appreciated it and am thankful for sharing. it didnt affect my decision when the time came to buy a bike...

    rest your case already. why repeat yourself?

    take steve3 out for a dinner and get your share of admiration from your fans. i dont need it here on this forum. and it seems that i am not the only one that feels this way...

  68. #68
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    blah, blah, blah again...

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    I would suggest using the same blinders you use to look at your little Ellsworth to not read these threads. You just mentioned somewhere that you're happy that Tony will charge you $500 three years later to upgrade your bike. Maybe you didn't read that it's not always $500 and more like 50-60% of a new bike? How about Tony's mistruths and outright lies? That doesn't make you mistrusting? How about judgement calls to not honor warranties? How bout the fact that his bikes seem to break and there are known failures? How about customer service not treating customers with the respect that a $2,000 bike frame should get you? How about Marin and Dagger bikes that are so similar and they cost 40% less?

    I think if you're pissed about these threads, tell Tony to either stop posting or stop lying if he does. The lies and 1/2 truths are in black and white and you're one of the stupid people he dishonestly markets to. You're as dumb as sheep, following the leader and not knowing anything. He's trying to edge out the competition with the dubious warranties. That's dirty marketing and shows the lack of integrity from someone that tries to put himself in respected company (which was refuted by more than one person) and then he goes ahead and attacks other companies by posting their warranties and halfway attempting to change their names? What I see in the warranty pages are clear cut warranties that don't misrepresent what you get. The Ellsworth promises the world, but doesn't give you anything more than anyone else. Next, if you buy an Ellsworth from a bike shop and it is *slightly* redesigned one month later, you have no warranty at all.

    I'm surprised that you just attack others while honoring Tony to the death. How bout YOU take him out to dinner?
    nothing new to say again...

    take a look around when you go out biking or if you go to 24 hour races... you will see many happy owners, many of them racers on their Ellsworth bikes... if it was really that bad as you are describing, it would have been bancrupt already...

    we are no more sheep than you when you bought your Tomac which is not sitting broken collecting dust and Tomac is not treating you well. why are you not sheep? you spent a chunk on that bike, didnt you? answer these questions befor you go on and bash Ells. i guess the grass is greener in your neighbors backyard... i understand why you would want that grass to be yellow and not as green as in your backyard... it is human weakness...

    and yes again, $500 sounds like a bargain after 3 years of usage and something breaks... geez, give it to me now...

  69. #69
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    i answered your question...

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Nope, I wasn't like you as a sheep when I cought my Tomac because no one has one of them, but again, you deviate off of Ellsworth, which is the debate at hand and back onto me. Telling me about my broken bike isn't getting your case anywhere. You decided to attack someone for no reason and now you use nursery rhymes to back yourself up.

    I'm only speaking of the business aspect of how Tony represented himself and his business practices. other Ellsworth owners "bashed" him, as you said, so maybe you should start deviating off to them? Tell them that Ellsworth is the "bestest" company in the whole wild world and punctuate it with "golly gee" because you haven't had their misfortune of poor service.

    Too bad osokolo, if you wanted to stay on the topic, all of us could have a good debate, but you just insist on doing the equivalent of putting your hands over your ears and going, "Lalalalalalaalal" to drown out what people are saying here.
    regarding Ellsworth warranty. i think it is fair. it does say it is limited lifetime and i told you my feelings about warranty replacement that may cost the consumer money.

    i stated thet i would pay that money in order to have current technology any time. am i stupid or retarded because i think this way?

    bottom line here is that i am happy with the product. and i am. i am happy with the warranty as well. i think it is better than most warranties on the market. now because some people are trying to read the warranty between it's real lines, it is not my problem.

    did i make myself clear?

    now would you please tell me what is wrong with Tomac and why your bike is not fixed yet. you say you are not a sheep because no one had Tomac at the time you purchased it? i'd say that is enough of a reason to be called exactly what you are denying you are...

    where was your homework before you bought your bike????????????

  70. #70

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    Ok, enough name calling.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Yes, you are retarded, as well as stupid. The warranty is not better than most. The value of a warranty is also because of its clarity, something EW doesn't have much of. Also, the crash replacement policy is more of a profit making strategy. He makes money off of you twice.

    If the warranty had nothing between the lines, there would be nothing to read into. Are you on crack? How many people have had problems? And I did address my Tomac issues on other threads, but it's funny how you keep jumping from thread to thread pretending you didn't threaten to beat me up or that I didn't address my broken tomac. I addressed it and you actually made fun of me for it.

    So you don't like many types of people, those being the ones that work for their bikes, those that get help to pay for their bikes, people that break their bikes, people that don't fight, people that use words in debates, and anyone that "bashes" EW.

    Way to earn that promo prize from Tony. you're just about as bizarre as him. Are you gonna threaten to beat me up again, Mr Playground Bully?
    I am enjoying following you two, but lay off of the name calling. Do not sink to that level, steve. You and I know what the point of these threads are. When you resort to that type of statement, it discolors the real issue.

  71. #71
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    heh, you always need someone else

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    You're right Damion and I posted an spology on the general discussion page. Hopefully, osokolo will quit and follow suit. We really deviated from the board pretty bad on this one.

    I enjoyed the posts, however
    to tell you that you are overboard... maybe you should wait for your daddy to come back from abroad and tell you what to do and what to not do...

    you obviously didnt contribute much to the cause that was behind damion's post. i respect damion much more than you, as he stated his case and rested it, unlike you steve3. you only proved to Ellsworth potential customers that what you are posting is magnified 100 times and out of proportions, because you sounded so personal. and when they found out that you never owned Ellsworth and never had any interactions with Ellsworth, that was the final nail in your coffin.

    i suggested long time ago, change your MTBR handle and start from the clean slate.

    and let us all know when or if you ever manage to fix your Tomac.

  72. #72
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    yadda, yadda, yadda...is this all?

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    people already know I don't own an EW because I know of the reputation.

    You seem to be one of them and now you take is so personally that you're trying to attack other people's families because your father was so rotten to you and your mother.

    I don't care about your respect. You obviously have no life outside of here and you care what people think and you want to have friends. You're socially defective and have anger issues. You get angry and threaten to beat someone up when when you can't speak on your end reasonably anymore. This is a sample of how you deal with real life, osokolo, and you were the one that showed us. Your bizarre behavior is not unlike Tony Ellsworth's and his posts. I wouldn't be surprised if you and him know each other and that's why you're so viciously defending him. You still haven't earned those free gift points from him because you've done nothing to make your case for EW,except deviate off to me and my Tomac. I've answered the questions about my Tomac several times and it's not a major sore point for me. I don't know where you're getting that from.

    I have another bike that I built up to ride. You seem to be alot more sore and defensive about your EW because you stand to lose alot from this thread, as well as losing the cache you thought you had when you bought it. You didn't know about the reputation when you bought the bike and now anyone chiming in is "bashing" YOUR brand and taking personal shot at you? No, people are speaking on the brand and not you. You took this to be a personal attack, so your defense mechanism was to deviate and transpose the focus onto myself. Bravo, osokolo, you typified a psychological profile in which someone transposes the focus onto another subject. In doing so, you show how you feel inside about your own family and life situations by being angry at me.

    If you don't want me on this board, stop posting about me and keep them on the general discussion page. If you don't want to, you're just letting more people read about the poor EW service that you'd like to cover up for the sake of your own well being. You're lettng the ten times as many people read the threads because they're not getting a chance to get buried.

    Why don't you start being constructive and either leave these threads alone for the people that want to speak on the issues, or start attacking the people that have broken EW's and are disgruntled? Maybe you can do the unthinkable and contribute constructively?

    Honestly, your ridiculous posts entertain me.
    hahaha, now this is really about Ellsworth???

    it sounds to me like you are practicing your lawyer exam or something...

    thanks for bringing up my family. my father just didnt have enough money to give me so that i can buy expensive bike. he had to feed the family first and foremost. and he worked hard in order to do it. i love my family.

    i am sure your father is not rotten. i would not call him that because i dont know him. but what i know is that you need him back from abroad as soon as possible so that you could fix your broken Tomac and also, he can help you with your other issues.

    i am surprised you didnt come up with your finding that my IP address belongs to Ellsworth, or that i am a Troll actually Tony himself or something like that. i am sure you tried to trace my IP and found out that it comes from Canada. how the heck could i know Tony, but once again when you let your immagination loose, i am sure you will come up with something that will link me to Tony. you've done that in the past with other people.

    So if I say that Ellsworth warranty is fair and that i accept it as it is, the only thing you can bring up is my family and my personality?

    that is very descriptive of your case. and other people seem to have started realizing that. it seems that i am not the only member of this forum to have suggested to you to ditch your handle and start a new MTBR discussion life (again).

    do it son, it is much more honourable than living MTBR life as it is now... you can do it. you have to do it...really...

  73. #73
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    hmmm, your posts are getting shorter and shorter...

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    See, proving my case. you attacked me and my family based on the financial short comings of your father. I'm not rich, nor is my father by any stretch, but he helped me out completely on his own because I'm doing well in school and saving him money by getting academic scholarships. I work nearly full time on the side to pay for my other expenses.
    good for you for doing all that. maybe one day you will really become something better than you are now. we all go through evolutionary changes.

    i never attacked your family as i dont know them. i have respect for your father becasue he is working hard to feed his family and is providing more than that by helping you finish your school and even throw in some money for your bike. i just think your father should spend more time with you now that you really need it...


    [/QUOTE}Obviously, you hate educated people now, in addition to the people that work, people with caring families, people that had bad EW experiences, and people that don't get into fist fights in bars. Anger management will get you very far in life. It'll only build up being in a dead end job with a poor education.[QUOTE}

    i have a university degree and i work in the IT industry. i love my job. it allows me to leave early enough some days so that i can go blazing the trails or roads on my bikes.


    [/QUOTE]Obligatory EW content: Speak about the EW article fiasco and how a new EW will not be covered by a warranty if the model is changed. Should the owner be as satisfied as you if it breaks in 6 months and they have to pay $1100 to upgrade?[/QUOTE]

    you call this EW content? good god. you are making up your own facts again. when i go to my first 24 hour race this year i am sure i will see even more Ellsworth bikes than last year... sorry to have to burst your bubble... but someone had to do it...

  74. #74

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    That thread was closed...

    but you can still view it, by doing a search.

  75. #75
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    chill out

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Truckee. respectfully, no one is trying to sabotage his business. There are many questions about his reputation and his business practices. If they are unfounded, he should answer to the very people that would buy one of his bikes. Simply put, sabotaging one's business can come only from that person if the products are that good.

    Unfortunately, Tony hasn't spoken directly on the issues and made more of a quagmire for himself by speaking around them. All he has to do is drop the attitude (as we have seen in his reponses) and answer the issues at hand of why a lifetime waranty only lasts the life of the technology, quoting him. I say nonsense because you have a warranty and thet covers you, no matter how technology changes. Next, ICT has supposedly been around for a while, even though the truth is not the truth, as he says, it's a totally different bike. ICT is the technology, for which there are patents. If the new Truth that's not a Truth is still using the ICT as the previous models did, then that the technology in question, which is still current.




    So, we're not knocking his products as much as his ethics. There are many documented issues here. Ellsworth bikes have had a problem with breakages and warranty claims. Maybe not all, but enough to make this known in the industry.

    So, please keep an open mind and be objective. Sabotaging one's business is a bold claim, especially when many of his policies are in question by many different types of people. All the threads on the general page is trying to address is the way he does business and why. Tony has chimed in, unsatisfactorily and unprofessionally at that by attacking the forum. If he answered properly, it wouldn't be so hard. Instead, he antagonizes us. Fine, I didn't buy an Ellsworth and never will, so I'm not upset at all. Since we're a small community and some of use have to save up for a long time to buy a bike, we deserve to get truthful marketing in terms of a warranty, otherwise we can go somewhere else.

    Mate, you need to chill out. Like you said - You didn't buy one and never would. In that case why are you making such a bid deal about a manufacturer you don't give a **** about. Maybe you should spend more time talking about bikes you love rather than ones you dislike. If I didn't like a particular manufacturer I would not give there forum the time of day. The fact that you are in this forum tells everybody that you like Ellsworths and obviously have an interest in them. Just one opinion i guess?

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