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  1. #1
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    why I ditched the platforms forever...

    stole this post from another forum. Author is WR304 - who I thank profusely for providing documentation on effectiveness of clipless pedals:

    you may also read that specific thread using the link provided by Circlip (I was always impressed with his searching skills... like WTF dude, where do you find all that time to find these obscure threads...) starring our dear ELECTRIK who was referred to as a "troll" on the said thread, which turned into a clusterfcuk the very moment our dear friend joined the discussion in his enlightened and open minded logical way. Find out why... The similarity with someone else on this forum is stunning...

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...25923#poststop

    Here is the good read:


    There are a few studies comparing clipless pedals to toe clips and flat pedals linked in this long thread:

    http://www.bentrideronline.com/messa...ad.php?t=52152

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The effect of clip-less pedals on mechanical characteristics measured during sprinting on a non-isokinetic cycle ergometer

    "Summary

    Purpose.
    The purpose of this study was to compare the mechanical parameters measured on a non-isokinetic cycle ergometer equiped with or without toe-clip pedals during sprinting.

    Methods.
    Two groups of subjects (international-national and regional cyclists) performed four sprints of 8 seconds with two different friction forces applied to the belt (0.5 or 1.1 N.kg−1). A variance analysis with repeated measures (shoe-pedal linkages and groups) has been performed.

    Results.
    The results show a significant increase of the maximal values of force, velocity and power output when clip-less pedals were used, whatever the friction force applied.

    Conclusions.
    This improvement of maximal power could be attributed to a significant increase in optimal velocity, which was observed for both considerable and minimal friction force. In fact, clipless pedals allowed a greater muscular activity, a greater efficiency index, and better muscular coordination." F. Hintzy, A. Belli, F. Grappe and J.D. Rouillon

    Edit: Working Link
    http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0765-1597(99)80055-0
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Electromyography in cycling: difference between clipless pedal and toe clip pedal
    "The purpose of this study was to verify if there is electromyographic difference in biceps femoris (long portion), semitendinous, semimembranous and gastrocnemius (lateralis and medialis) muscles, using clipless pedal and toe clip pedal.

    Thirty seven triathletes answered a questionnaire about their preferred type of pedal, which showed that 5.4% used toe clip pedal and 94.6% used clipless pedal. Four male triathletes (age: 21.75 +/- 2.50 years old; cycling experience: 5.00 +/- 2.45 years; preferred cadence: 83.75 +/- 7.5 rpm) rode their own bicycles on a stationary roller at 100 rpm. The subjects performed one trial with each type of pedal. Bipolar surface electrodes placed on right lower limb picked up the EMG signal during 6 s. A band-pass filter (10-600 Hz) was used.

    Two muscles (semitendinous and semimembranous) presented lower activity with clipless pedal for all subjects. Biceps femoris and gastrocnemius lateralis presented lower activity with clipless pedal for three subjects. This led us to conclude that there is less electromyographic activity with the use of clipless pedal." Cruz CF, Bankoff AD 2001

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11441642


    Review 2009
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18093842


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Effects of pedal type and pull-up action during cycling.
    "The aim of this study was to determine the influence of different shoe-pedal interfaces and of an active pulling-up action during the upstroke phase on the pedalling technique.

    Eight elite cyclists (C) and seven non-cyclists (NC) performed three different bouts at 90 rev . min (-1) and 60 % of their maximal aerobic power. They pedalled with single pedals (PED), with clipless pedals (CLIP) and with a pedal force feedback (CLIPFBACK) where subjects were asked to pull up on the pedal during the upstroke.

    There was no significant difference for pedalling effectiveness, net mechanical efficiency (NE) and muscular activity between PED and CLIP. When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke (86 % for C and 57 % NC, respectively), as well as higher biceps femoris and tibialis anterior muscle activity (p < 0.001). However, NE was significantly reduced (p < 0.008) with 9 % and 3.3 % reduction for C and NC, respectively.

    Consequently, shoe-pedal interface (PED vs. CLIP) did not significantly influence cycling technique during submaximal exercise. However, an active pulling-up action on the pedal during upstroke increased the pedalling effectiveness, while reducing net mechanical efficiency."Mornieux G, Stapelfeldt B, Gollhofer A, Belli A.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18418807

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Gross cycling efficiency is not altered with and without toe-clips
    "The aim of this study was to examine the claim that reductions of 8 - 18% in submaximal oxygen consumption (O2) could be due to changing components on a Monark ergometer, from standard pedals without toe-clips or straps (flat pedals) to racing pedals of that era, which included toe-clips and straps (toe-clip pedals).

    This previously untested assertion was evaluated using 11 males (mean age 22.3 years, s = 1.2; height 1.82 m, s = 0.07; body mass 82.6 kg, s = 8.8) who completed four trials in a randomized, counterbalanced order at 60 rev min-1 on a Monark cycle ergometer. Two trials were completed on flat pedals and two trials on toe-clip pedals. The Douglas bag method was used to assess O2 and gross efficiency during successive 5-min workloads of 60, 120, 180, and 240 W.

    The mean O2 was 2.1% higher for toe-clip pedals than flat pedals and there was a 99% probability that toe-clip pedals would not result in an 8% lower O2. These results indicate that toe-clip pedals do not reduce O2." Authors: Laura M. Ostlera; James A. Bettsa; Christopher J. Gore

    http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/con...l~jumptype=rss

  2. #2
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    racing tip: overtaking in corners

    this technique mandates using platform pedals - which enables XC racer to take corners faster by dabbing if needed, and overtaking slower XC racers who use clipless pedals because they can not dab and must go slower through corners.

    Don't thank me - thank electrik:



    electrik: "but then you also have a chance to very quickly dab a foot to prevent a crash or modify your centre of mass"

    chiplikestoridehisbike: Is this a technique you use while racing XC?

    electrik: Yeah Chip, it is, dabbing a foot or dragging a foot through a corner is a great way to over-take a competitor on clips in a corner who is not going to be going to the limit. You can almost always corner better this way and corner better on bumpy ground where a clipless rider might nancy around the bumps. Better cornering gives you much more opportunity to over-take.
    Albert Einstein would say: Ze Brilliant...

  3. #3
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    Thank you. Where's the beer smilie?

    The info pointing out the less muscle activity does confirm what I mentioned. That one uses more energy with flats.

    Hmm... you want to burn more calories. Ride Flats.

  4. #4
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    Thanks I had actually read a few of these articles in university but I couldn't find the articles so I didn't mention it.
    Rocky Element
    My Attempt at a Blog

  5. #5
    namagomi
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    I'm not going to read it, i debated with the guy and can tell you i remain quite unconvinced.

    Unless he went out and purchased all those pubmed articles you should also be weary or people posting studies they haven't read.

    P.S. Comrade Oskupalov, if anybody was a troll in that thread it was the OP. Continue trying to tarnish the kettle, pot.

  6. #6
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    this technique mandates using platform pedals - which enables XC racer to take corners faster by dabbing if needed, and overtaking slower XC racers who use clipless pedals because they can not dab and must go slower through corners.

    Don't thank me - thank electrik:





    Albert Einstein would say: Ze Brilliant...
    No thanks required! I have seen a lot of nancy boy antics regarding clipless and cornering.

  7. #7
    sock puppet
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    electrik, you are unbelievable... you did not debate a guy, you debated everyone that participated in that thread. To the point they called you TROLL.

    I know only one other MTBR member that is as bad as you, maybe even worse. However, you are on a sure way to tame his legend.

    Just unbelievable.

    Your overtaking technique is particularly entertaining. I think it will follow you till the rest of your MTBR life...

    Are you going to race an event or two this year? I am willing to pay cash to see you racing. Just name your price.

    In the meantime - since clipless crowd failed to convince you, even after SCIENTIFIC studies - care to provide ANY evidence at all that give platform pedals any advantage over clipless - for XC racing - as the debate was on the XC Racing and Training MTBR forum?

    I hear that Lance is considering switching to platforms after reading your debate. Is that true?

  8. #8
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    electrik, you are unbelievable... you did not debate a guy, you debated everyone that participated in that thread. To the point they called you TROLL.

    I know only one other MTBR member that is as bad as you, maybe even worse. However, you are on a sure way to tame his legend.

    Just unbelievable.

    Your overtaking technique is particularly entertaining. I think it will follow you till the rest of your MTBR life...

    Are you going to race an event or two this year? I am willing to pay cash to see you racing. Just name your price.

    In the meantime - since clipless crowd failed to convince you, even after SCIENTIFIC studies - care to provide ANY evidence at all that give platform pedals any advantage over clipless - for XC racing - as the debate was on the XC Racing and Training MTBR forum?

    I hear that Lance is considering switching to platforms after reading your debate. Is that true?
    The following things aren't convincing me and others:
    • Citing conclusions of studies one hasn't read and promoting them as gospel.
    • Telling me such and such is super awesome and they use clipless.
    • Name calling and character assassination.


    If I step on some XC toes to point out the emperor has no clothes, what do you care? why is it your business? Honestly i don't know what you're getting worked up about

  9. #9
    sock puppet
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    The following things aren't convincing me and others:
    you mean, the two of you. Or both of you? Unfortunately, if the rest of the world was convinced on any random issue, the two of you would still remain unconvinced. That is if the two of you are really the two of you and not just one. Similarities are astounding...

    • Citing conclusions of studies one hasn't read and promoting them as gospel.
    What? Says who one hasn't read the studies? So is the study a problem or is the problem that you think one has not read the study? If one has read the study - is that OK? Also, if one has not read the study - what does that have to do with study displaying the results this way or the other. Are you saying that you are just discarding the results from these studies? In that case - there is nothing that anyone can do to have a meaningful debate with you - which is pretty apparent so far. The kicker here is that almost everyone who uses clipless is still accepting the fact that platforms have their place in certain situations and for certain people, and both of you preach that only platforms are be it all solution and clipless are for weak, fansy and overweight sausage suits.

    Funny thing, your carbon copy better half who is advocating the theory about big belly (fat) riders using clipless pedals - should really look in the mirror and switch to clipless immediately so that he is not the exception to his rule...



    • Telling me such and such is super awesome and they use clipless.
    In your own words, just because Justin Bieber is awesome, doesn't mean he is superior to others.

    I will take your word for it though. I am really not into Justin Bieber.

    • Name calling and character assassination.
    You assassinated your own character with your own posts. Don't blame others. You were offered graphs, pictures, studies, personal experiences and you still were not convinced that clipless were better for XC racing? What did you expect? The guys at XC Racing and Training thread were extremely nice with you in the beginning, but then they realized you were just a troll and gave up.

    If I step on some XC toes to point out the emperor has no clothes, what do you care? why is it your business? Honestly i don't know what you're getting worked up about
    you pointed out few things, but none of them is the fact that the emperor has no clothes. I am just fascinated with your logic. That is all.

    Now we are back to our regular programming.

  10. #10
    sock puppet
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    excellent pic/graph - muscle use

    with clipless during full 360 degree pedal stroke
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails why I ditched the platforms forever...-pedalstroke_large.gif  


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo

    Now we are back to our regular programming.
    <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2WNrx2jq184" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  12. #12
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    electrik: Yeah Chip, it is, dabbing a foot or dragging a foot through a corner is a great way to over-take a competitor on clips in a corner who is not going to be going to the limit. You can almost always corner better this way and corner better on bumpy ground where a clipless rider might nancy around the bumps. Better cornering gives you much more opportunity to over-take.
    Wow, talk about logical fallacy....

    You can overtake anyone who is cornering below the limit - assuming there is room - by using a technique or line that does corner at the limit.

    It has nothing to do with flats vs clips, but rather properly committing to the corner.

    Dabbing, BTW, means you aren't properly committed to the corner. If you are properly committed, you are on the power right after passing the apex - and you can't be on the power if a foot is on the ground.

    DG

  13. #13
    Evil Jr.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RecceDG
    Wow, talk about logical fallacy....

    You can overtake anyone who is cornering below the limit - assuming there is room - by using a technique or line that does corner at the limit.

    It has nothing to do with flats vs clips, but rather properly committing to the corner.

    Dabbing, BTW, means you aren't properly committed to the corner. If you are properly committed, you are on the power right after passing the apex - and you can't be on the power if a foot is on the ground.

    DG
    I agree with you in principle but in certain situations, there's a very useful technique you can use called a "pivot turn" where you intentionally dab the inside foot to change direction really quickly. It's especially useful in dicey situations in cyclocross. Tim Johnson is the master at this style of turn. Of course, he uses clipless pedals but I digress...
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  14. #14
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    If I understand you correctly, you are saying that even with clipless pedals, you can dab yourself out of trouble or "dicey" situation, right?

    In other words - you don't need platforms in order to utilize "pivot turn".

    Comes as no surprise, however.

    Did you find any correlation between clipless pedals and oversized gut?

  15. #15
    Evil Jr.
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    Did you find any correlation between clipless pedals and oversized gut?
    Other than excessive butter tart consumption, none whatsoever!
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  16. #16
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    This is worth noting too:

    http://www.pinkbike.com/news/truvati...anks-2010.html

    Came across this last night while I was doing some research.

    Note that two of the three pro-level downhill racers are running clips on their pedals.

    DG

  17. #17
    Lemmy Rules!
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    with clipless during full 360 degree pedal stroke
    Wow, Oggie- how long did it take you to draw that?
    Strava made me do it....

  18. #18
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    ...
    Now we are back to our regular programming.
    Sorry, but I don't read rants. It is just a policy. If you wanted to talk about clipless pedals with me you should have posted in the XC forum. It has nothing todo with anything here.

  19. #19
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by RecceDG
    Wow, talk about logical fallacy....

    You can overtake anyone who is cornering below the limit - assuming there is room - by using a technique or line that does corner at the limit.

    It has nothing to do with flats vs clips, but rather properly committing to the corner.

    Dabbing, BTW, means you aren't properly committed to the corner. If you are properly committed, you are on the power right after passing the apex - and you can't be on the power if a foot is on the ground.

    DG
    Unless it's perfect asphalt, you'll probably crash and burn 5 out of 10 times if you can't dab a foot when cornering at the limit of traction. Sketchy corners are even worse. It sounds like you're advocating playing it stable which isn't taking the corner as fast as possible. This was my point. It doesn't have much todo with shoes, only that the trend is for clipless XC riders to remain clipped in always, which requires a less risky cornering practice.

  20. #20
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    with clipless during full 360 degree pedal stroke
    Actually, that is mostly useless as it displays each muscle as equal. Go and look for the pedaling force vector illustrations in that thread and combine it with that illustration to obtain better image of a pedal stroke.

    edit: I am also unsubscribed now... sorry
    Last edited by electrik; 03-15-2011 at 05:39 PM.

  21. #21
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    Clipless are better if you like them more and/or ride faster with them.

    Flats are better if you like them more and/or ride faster with them.

    Try both, use what works best for you. Don't dog the other side just because they've chosen a different path. No argument in the world is going to convince someone to ride clipless if they hate riding them. Same goes for flats.
    "Got everything you need?"

  22. #22
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    so what about 2 out of 3

    worlds best (fastest) downhill racers, who race with clipless??

    doesn't that put your theory to rest?



    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    Unless it's perfect asphalt, you'll probably crash and burn 5 out of 10 times if you can't dab a foot when cornering at the limit of traction. Sketchy corners are even worse. It sounds like you're advocating playing it stable which isn't taking the corner as fast as possible. This was my point. It doesn't have much todo with shoes, only that the trend is for clipless XC riders to remain clipped in always, which requires a less risky cornering practice.

  23. #23
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    Unless it's perfect asphalt, you'll probably crash and burn 5 out of 10 times if you can't dab a foot when cornering at the limit of traction.
    Heh. You're doing it wrong.

    I can corner at the limit of traction without dabbing. In fact, I find that being solidly connected to the bike via the clips helps me use body english to help keep the bike under control when the grip gets sketchy.

    I've also found that my current tires of choice respond very well to being heavily loaded. trying to pick your way through a corner results in sketchy grip, but raise the entry speed and really drive the tires into the ground and the grip gets much better. Within reason, the faster you corner, the better it grips.

    So I really don't have time to dab a foot - I'm too busy cranking to dab.

    DG

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    Actually, that is mostly useless as it displays each muscle as equal. Go and look for the pedaling force vector illustrations in that thread and combine it with that illustration to obtain better image of a pedal stroke.

    edit: I am also unsubscribed now... sorry
    Just to clarify the pictogram for you:

    The pictogram does not display each muscle as equal. It displays the portion of the 360 degree pedal stroke and which portion of each stroke employs any given muscle. It merely describes that for example right Hip Extensor works between 12 and 3 pm and receives help from the left knee flexor and ankle dorsiflexor at the same time - which would be impossible without clips.

    The simple conclusion of this pictograph is that there are 3 extra muscles in each leg, that can be utilized if clips are used. 3 extra muscles mean more power to me.

    The math is pretty simple - but I am sure you will find a way to challenge it, like you probably could with Newton's Gravity Laws, and conclude that the actual apple fell up, not down... It's just you though....

    Did you really UNSUBSCRIBE or just log out?

  25. #25
    sock puppet
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    please, don't forget my question

    2 out of 3 best downhillers ride clipped in now. How do you explain that and what is their cornering technique, please?

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    Unless it's perfect asphalt, you'll probably crash and burn 5 out of 10 times if you can't dab a foot when cornering at the limit of traction. Sketchy corners are even worse. It sounds like you're advocating playing it stable which isn't taking the corner as fast as possible. This was my point. It doesn't have much todo with shoes, only that the trend is for clipless XC riders to remain clipped in always, which requires a less risky cornering practice.

  26. #26
    bi-winning
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    Every bicycle has two pedals. Why not just use one of each? Then you can get the best of both worlds. Yeah. That's the answer.
    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.

  27. #27
    No. Just No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkj__
    Every bicycle has two pedals. Why not just use one of each? Then you can get the best of both worlds. Yeah. That's the answer.
    I must now find a trail that has turns only in one direction like an ever-tightening sprial of death, so that I can use the "dab" technique to corner at my limit to the side that has the platform pedal installed.

    Your suggested configuration is awesomely versatile in a way that only an engineer (in training) such as yourself could imagine, in the sense that I can ride a trail consisting of either all left turns or all right turns with equal proficiency, so long as stop to grab the opposite sided pedals from my pack and swap them on to the bike to match the turning direction of the trail.

  28. #28
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    Hmm... now I'm fighting mad.

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