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  1. #1
    humber river advocate
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    watershed wednesday

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    moth wing?



    a nice hoppy belgium and a old standby



    I did check out the newer trails built in Albion Hills and was rather disappointed. To improve the number of riders, increase tourism, and engage youth, we need a fundamental shift in the way trails are built and engage stakeholders that are currently being excluded.
    Last edited by singlesprocket; 06-29-2011 at 06:59 PM.
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  2. #2
    namagomi
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    I believe this is the victim.



    Haven't been to Albion for a while.

  3. #3
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    Good ride last night along the Humber River. It was surprisingly mosquito free but the deer flies were buzzing over the river,
    Spotted some unusual plants to keep an eye on because they appear to be an invasive species (I don't think it was hogweed)
    Cool pic Electric.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    ...and engage youth, we need a fundamental shift in the way trails are built and engage stakeholders that are currently being excluded.
    200 tykes at the Solstice kids race. Things aren't so bad out there.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    I did check out the newer trails built in Albion Hills and was rather disappointed. To improve the number of riders, increase tourism, and engage youth, we need a fundamental shift in the way trails are built and engage stakeholders that are currently being excluded.
    Ya, 200 youth riders were totally non-engaged when they did the youth race during Summer Solstice. Eyeroll. There's a place for everything. Why is it so wrong for Albion to be a place for nice smooth singletrack? We're lucky to have so many options in Southern Ontario. I can't believe I just let myself be trolled by you. Again.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    having fun...


    I did check out the newer trails built in Albion Hills and was rather disappointed. To improve the number of riders, increase tourism, and engage youth, we need a fundamental shift in the way trails are built and engage stakeholders that are currently being excluded.
    Whats this fundamental change your specifically looking for?
    skinnies?
    drops?
    step ups?
    teeters?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhpunk~ View Post
    Whats this fundamental change your specifically looking for?
    skinnies?
    drops?
    step ups?
    teeters?
    wooden features require alot of maintenance and are not the best solution. there are other methods that can be utilized using a range of materials and designs that will help conserve the habitat displaced by the trail and be quite sustainable. the fundamental shift is more in line with the policies of the conservation authorities where the trail not only provides a recreational opportunity but also an interpretive learning experience, promotes naturalization/stewardship, and is progressive in nature. and yes skill features should be included.
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  8. #8
    humber river advocate
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Ya, 200 youth riders were totally non-engaged when they did the youth race during Summer Solstice. Eyeroll. There's a place for everything. Why is it so wrong for Albion to be a place for nice smooth singletrack? We're lucky to have so many options in Southern Ontario. I can't believe I just let myself be trolled by you. Again.
    there are 10'000 new riders in the region of peel alone every year. how are they being engaged? how are the residents in the town of bolton/caledon being engaged? actually there is no trails you can mtb legally in the town (though there is plans for one maybe). the number of options in southern ontario are actually quite limited and watered down.
    if you don't have a car or money to pay the entrance fee you better get a road bike.
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  9. #9
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    I would argue that new riders in particular need "watered down" trails to make the experience more accessible. All of us posting here have been riding for so long, we can easily lose sight of how "beginner" beginners really are, me included. A kid that just got his first 40lb Supercycle doesn't really need to be looking at grades higher than 5% to be engaged.

    That being said, I agree that there should be lots more free trails everywhere.
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  10. #10
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    I think all the grassy sides of the trails should be ripped out and replaced with premium sod. You know, so the grass is greener.

    < /stakeholder >

  11. #11
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclelicious View Post
    Good ride last night along the Humber River. It was surprisingly mosquito free but the deer flies were buzzing over the river,
    Spotted some unusual plants to keep an eye on because they appear to be an invasive species (I don't think it was hogweed)
    Cool pic Electric.
    I agree, but it's not mine, it's just from the wikipedia entry. Anyways that is a large moth for around here. If that plant you spotted looks invasive it might be purple loosestrife? I'm not sure how exotic loosestrife looks to people nowadays.

  12. #12
    namagomi
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    Kids are way more adventurous with what they'll ride in terms of stunts... puts most adults to shame! In case you didn't notice, adult's negative experiences on bicycles are given way more weight than the positive ones. Unfortunately it is the more conservative and "mis" experienced adults who are managing things and forbidding adventure when it looks a bit risky.

    So called teachers and educators are responsible to provide something to prepare young learners self confidence and technique with the technical and stunt aspects so that when they grow up they'll be more all-rounded rippers. Not to mention it will keep kids interested in being active by providing a larger range of experiences that aren't just variants of doing laps faster and faster. A bit more balance ought to be the focus, not buying them clipless shoes and a fancy heart-rate monitor. Certainly you can see how obsession with these artifacts discourage the majority of the kids who aren't out there to engage in competition. We need to destroy this Canadian idea that the only legitimate reason to ride a bicycle is to race it. I cringe sometimes at events like summer solstice because there are kids who so obviously don't want to be there who would rather be out at the BMX park or trying to nail a skinny. How to we keep those kids in the sport?

    /rant

    I also don't think an average kid cares or has much perspective about how much their super-cycle weighs or how much a bicycle is supposed to weigh, they'll probably ride it off anything - likely why they're 40lbs.

  13. #13
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    Keeping it real
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Kids are way more adventurous with what they'll ride in terms of stunts...
    Allow me to re-phrase for you. Boys are way more adventurous with what they'll ride in terms of stunts... Maybe this is why we see so few women in mountain biking, because they all associate it with high risk behaviour. I've ridden with little girls, and they are mostly NOT looking to huck off the biggest thing they can find.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    /rant
    That was a lovely rant but let's not lose perspective. When I say beginner, I really mean beginner. I help lead group rides with 10-12 year olds and some are already great but most are, not to put too fine a point on it, horrible. And they absolutely do care how heavy their bikes are when they're stuck pushing them up some silly 20% fall-line trail that somebody thought would be a "rad" build.

    Plenty of adults and new Canadians fit that description too. As "boring" as everyone tells me Albion is, I've seen scores of people from all walks of life overwhelmed there. Building skill is great but you have to learn to walk before you can run.
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  16. #16
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    Albion doesn't have the natural rock features you find in buck wallow or along the niagara escarpment in Kolapore, three stage kelso etc.
    For what is there I think the trca and chico and friends have done some great work.
    There has been a good attempt to add some features in some of the newer sections and it's a step in the right direction.
    what Albion is, is many km of nice flowing single track with some good climbs with some man made features spread out here and there.
    single sprocket, I've seen some of the work you've done and you know how to build some pretty good trails.You've got some good ideas.
    maybe you should try to get involved with some of the work going on at Albion.
    I ride a lot of the local trails on a regular basis (mono cliffs,dufferin forest, sections of the bruce trail.) but I also enjoy hitting Albion.
    Albion is what it is.

  17. #17
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    [QUOTE=singlesprocket;8195173]having fun...






    the beer on the left looks all foamy

  18. #18
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    That was a lovely rant but let's not lose perspective. When I say beginner, I really mean beginner. I help lead group rides with 10-12 year olds and some are already great but most are, not to put too fine a point on it, horrible. And they absolutely do care how heavy their bikes are when they're stuck pushing them up some silly 20% fall-line trail that somebody thought would be a "rad" build.

    Plenty of adults and new Canadians fit that description too. As "boring" as everyone tells me Albion is, I've seen scores of people from all walks of life overwhelmed there. Building skill is great but you have to learn to walk before you can run.
    /rant

    Bah. I guess nobody had fun going down that hill then? How does a kid know their bicycle is heavy? I certainly didn't know for a long time mine was awful, nor did it matter since i wasn't daddy's pet racer(or whatever you want to call that syndrome). You know gaining skills isn't a continuum like moving from walking to running, there has to be a jump somewhere, sometimes literally!

    Yes, Albion is fine, but lets be honest, it's the mtb version of a kiddy pool. Beyond that, Ontario is sort of a kiddy pool. So, lets expand our horizons a bit and stop trying to pretend we can train our swimmers in kiddy pools. It only concerns me because we seem to be turning everything into a kiddy pool lately, we need more jumps! Jumps are what make things rewarding!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Allow me to re-phrase for you. Boys are way more adventurous with what they'll ride in terms of stunts... Maybe this is why we see so few women in mountain biking, because they all associate it with high risk behaviour. I've ridden with little girls, and they are mostly NOT looking to huck off the biggest thing they can find.


    It is way to easy to use the whole boy and girl thing.

    The real limiter is not whether the kid riding a bike is a boy or girl. It's what parents and society tell them is acceptable. This year Gabi came home from school going on about how girls can't play with dump trucks or toy cars. Yet we have never told her she cannot do so. And this is the little girl who likes playing with toy cars.

    It's parents telling their little girls things like... " Boy's play in mud girls don't" or You can't do that because you are a girl". It's the input we adults tell our kids. Because untill they get told "You can't climb that because you are a girl" they will not think otherwise. And do it anyways.

  20. #20
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Allow me to re-phrase for you. Boys are way more adventurous with what they'll ride in terms of stunts... Maybe this is why we see so few women in mountain biking, because they all associate it with high risk behaviour. I've ridden with little girls, and they are mostly NOT looking to huck off the biggest thing they can find.
    Only because the mass media patriarchy taught them so... you can assign whichever gender roles you feel fit! Not convincing me. From what i've seen there are female huckers and DH riders around, take a trip out to whistler... besides if we can't train them at local forests that riding technical stunts is doable and rewarding where can they possibly learn to?

    Also, I object to your high-school stereotyping of males as testosterone based mindless monkeys chucking themselves off cliffs... (could you even relate to why men do these things) not everybody has/had that problem you know. I know plenty of teenaged women who engaged in high-risk behaviour also... so neah!

  21. #21
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    [QUOTE=trailtrash;8197547]
    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    having fun...






    the beer on the left looks all foamy
    Thats cause I took a sip....mmmmmm

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Allow me to re-phrase for you. Boys are way more adventurous with what they'll ride in terms of stunts... Maybe this is why we see so few women in mountain biking, because they all associate it with high risk behaviour. I've ridden with little girls, and they are mostly NOT looking to huck off the biggest thing they can find.
    I've experienced a different response from kids at Blue, Mte Sainte Anne and other DH locations. I'm approached frequently by boys and girls equally as well as their parents. The kids I've met express curiousity to know all about the DH syle of riding. Kids and parents have lots of questions, and typically the questions are gender neutral like "where can you ride?" "whats it like? ". And reponses from those kids are always positive and optimistic like "I want to try that" Some kids want to touch the bike and test the brakes which I always allow. Its mainly the parents asking about technical difficulties. I always promote the sport and encourage everyone to learn as long as there are places to ride and the opportunity is given.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    Albion is what it is.
    that's the problem, it could be so much more and serve the greater community better...

    it's more than just helping out (and i do plenty of that). we need fresh ideas and more
    progressive practices as well as engaging the community better.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclelicious View Post
    I've experienced a different response from kids at Blue, Mte Sainte Anne and other DH locations. I'm approached frequently by boys and girls equally as well as their parents. The kids I've met express curiousity to know all about the DH syle of riding. Kids and parents have lots of questions, and typically the questions are gender neutral like "where can you ride?" "whats it like? ". And reponses from those kids are always positive and optimistic like "I want to try that" Some kids want to touch the bike and test the brakes which I always allow. Its mainly the parents asking about technical difficulties. I always promote the sport and encourage everyone to learn as long as there are places to ride and the opportunity is given.
    <iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4v3K5x9jQSs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    <iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/kbAGV1LWzIk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    <iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/24063518?title=0&amp;byline=0&amp;portrait=0&amp;c olor=969696" width="940" height="529" frameborder="0"></iframe>

    opportunity has to be given in southern ontario. the status quo is not working and has to change.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post


    i'm flattered, but sorry i don't roll that way.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post

    opportunity has to be given in southern ontario. the status quo is not working and has to change.
    The opportunity is there. The problem is not the oppurtunities available now or in the future. The problem is before that when the girls are 2, 3, and so on. It is what parents are teaching their daughters. If all a girl hears is "Good girls don't do stunts" well of course they won't do that.

    It also stems from how differently we interact between boys and girls. When one talks to a boy they always ask things like 'What is your favorite toy?" or whatever, Then when we interact with a girl the first thing people say is "Look how pretty you are" so they learn to focus on that. They focus on weight, diet, and looking pretty.

    You want to get more girls riding mountain bikes. change the message when they are young. That is what will have a greater effect than whether or not we have more oppurtunities for them now.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    That was a lovely rant but let's not lose perspective. When I say beginner, I really mean beginner. I help lead group rides with 10-12 year olds and some are already great but most are, not to put too fine a point on it, horrible. And they absolutely do care how heavy their bikes are when they're stuck pushing them up some silly 20% fall-line trail that somebody thought would be a "rad" build.

    Plenty of adults and new Canadians fit that description too. As "boring" as everyone tells me Albion is, I've seen scores of people from all walks of life overwhelmed there. Building skill is great but you have to learn to walk before you can run.

    this thread is not about sustainable trail practices but of meeting the needs of the community.


    i see plenty 10-12 year olds building small ramps/jumps in the unused spaces around bolton and shredding at the skate park. dirt jumps are being built by kids just outside of
    albion hills by the rail trail near palgrave. there are stunts on properties all around albion hills... the learn to walk argument is bs, why does a whole trail network has to be on a
    beginner level? considering the falling numbers at races and the activities going on outside the network this concept is not working (it hasn't been working for well over a decade). this group think is the elephant in the room.
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  28. #28
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    I think you're missing my point. I actually think most MTB trails in Ontario are already too difficult for something like 90% of people who own bikes. Making them harder won't really have any appreciable effect on participation.

    I'll give you a crazy hypothetical situation and you can give me a constructive suggestion.

    Let's say I want to go for a nice ride in the woods (no double track or rail trail please) with my six-month pregnant wife, my 70 year-old inlaws, my two nieces (ages 6 and 7) and my sister who hasn't been on a bike in three years. Where in the GTA do I take them? Not Albion, that's for sure; it's too advanced as it is for this group.

    (P.S. I actually do need an answer to this question so suggestions are most welcome. )
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post

    Albion is fine, but lets be honest, it's the mtb version of a kiddy pool.
    Bingo. Succinct and to the point

  30. #30
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    I would not agree that Ontario is easy as a whole. If we are talking just about Chico and o cup courses maybe, but I have long left that scene years ago as I don't cycle for points or to compete, but for the challenge and serenity of a day/weekend/week that cycling gives and well racing is good for cycling as a whole, it's not the only thing.

    Speaking to that the Bruce trail around niagara is probably the roughest hilliest terrain in any parts of the world, not in pure size, but the trails and roads going up and down the escarpment are unique and a real treat to ride. You have to be super skilled to ride some of those trails and not be in the hospital the next morning, in fact many people have died trying to ride these trails around Beamer, and higher parts of the escarpment. Also the niagara area has some really skilled road cyclists, producing world class talent like Steve Bauer who has credited the escarpment in Ontario as one of the reasons for his success.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I
    Let's say I want to go for a nice ride in the woods (no double track or rail trail please) with my six-month pregnant wife,
    Ah.. yeah. I won't even touch this one.

    There is so many myths and bull puckey around pregnancy and exercise.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhpunk~ View Post
    Whats this fundamental change your specifically looking for?
    skinnies?
    drops?
    step ups?
    teeters?
    Check out the extreme trail at kelso, a good example of making trails more technical. They have mountain bike courses there that teach kids how to ride smart and safe.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Ah.. yeah. I won't even touch this one.

    There is so many myths and bull puckey around pregnancy and exercise.
    You and I both know she raced Solstice (and still does the evil Tuesday Nighters) so we don't need to dwell on that. Still looking for ideas... Anyone?
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I think you're missing my point. I actually think most MTB trails in Ontario are already too difficult for something like 90% of people who own bikes. Making them harder won't really have any appreciable effect on participation.

    I'll give you a crazy hypothetical situation and you can give me a constructive suggestion.

    Let's say I want to go for a nice ride in the woods (no double track or rail trail please) with my six-month pregnant wife, my 70 year-old inlaws, my two nieces (ages 6 and 7) and my sister who hasn't been on a bike in three years. Where in the GTA do I take them? Not Albion, that's for sure; it's too advanced as it is for this group.

    (P.S. I actually do need an answer to this question so suggestions are most welcome. )
    Try the trans-canada trail.

    Taking an existing trail and "sanitizing" it has already been argued about here, so now you place yourself on the sanitizing side, but there are lots of people who aren't trying to gut mtb into some sort of ubiquitously standard flavourless and arguably inoffensive cheeze-whiz which we can feed to an undistinguished palate. There is a reason cheeze-whiz is for kids and newcomers and that is the reason we need to stop feeding them cheeze-whiz ASAP. Riding inside a standard system such as that is like eating at McDonald's - a stagnant experience. Perhaps that is mountain biking hell, it certainly seems the antithesis of mountain biking's spontaneous beginnings.

    I hope you know that what you're saying makes you sound like you want to water down all our drinks. Water them down so that we can pander them to the lowest common denominator. I'll take my "drink" straight up with a chance for something unknown and exhilarating. Those who don't like drinking can take up knitting and keep their hands off mine! Maybe that makes me insensitive, but I hope to hell people can still get a stiff "drink" from our trails in the future.


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    To engage the youth?

    Here is a novel concept. Stop and actually ask them want they would like. Actually listen to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    To engage the youth?

    Here is a novel concept. Stop and actually ask them want they would like. Actually listen to them.
    Ridiculous, that's like asking 7 year olds to make up the rules of hockey for everyone.
    Last edited by BrokenAnimator; 07-02-2011 at 05:51 PM.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Try the trans-canada trail.

    Taking an existing trail and "sanitizing" it has already been argued about here, so now you place yourself on the sanitizing side, but there are lots of people who aren't trying to gut mtb into some sort of ubiquitously standard flavourless and arguably inoffensive cheeze-whiz which we can feed to an undistinguished palate. There is a reason cheeze-whiz is for kids and newcomers and that is the reason we need to stop feeding them cheeze-whiz ASAP. Riding inside a standard system such as that is like. eating at McDonald's - a stagnant experience. Perhaps that is mountain biking hell, it certainly seems the antithesis of mountain biking's spontaneous beginnings.

    I hope you know that what you're saying makes you sound like you want to water down all our drinks. Water them down so that we can pander them to the lowest common denominator. I'll take my "drink" straight up with a chance for something unknown and exhilarating. Those who don't like drinking can take up knitting and keep their hands off mine! Maybe that makes me insensitive, but I hope to hell people can still get a stiff "drink" from our trails in the future.

    Congratulations on being awesome!

    Still waiting on a real suggestion (TCT, feh, double-track fail).
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    That was a lovely rant but let's not lose perspective. When I say beginner, I really mean beginner. I help lead group rides with 10-12 year olds and some are already great but most are, not to put too fine a point on it, horrible. And they absolutely do care how heavy their bikes are when they're stuck pushing them up some silly 20% fall-line trail that somebody thought would be a "rad" build.
    The reality is that half of those kids won't continue past 4-5 years. They will lose interest dues to things like cars, girls, and so on. Plus some of those kids are on the ride simply because mommy and daddy brought them.

  39. #39
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    Man, oh man, I can't believe the ruckus over Albion. It seems pretty simple to me, if you want something that can be ridden on a cyclocross bike(*), ride there. If you want something more technically challenging, don't ride there.

    I know a fella, a regular on this board, who says that the ideal race course allows him to stay in the saddle and hammer. I know another fella, me, who thinks that the idea recreational route requires flat pedals and a dropper post for maximal bailout flexibility.

    Obviously, the world is full of different people with different objectives. Albion is strongly oriented towards sitting in the saddle. Here's a simple way to keep your blood pressure down: If you answer "yes" to any of the following questions, do not ride at Albion. Do your best to avoid debating Albion with people. Here we go:

    1. Do you own and regularly use flat pedals?
    2. Do you have a quick release or remote dropper seat post?
    3. Do you own knee pads, shin pads, or elbow pads?
    4. Do you ever wear a full-face helmet outside of trips to Blue or Horseshoe?
    5. Do you own high volume tyres such as Nevegals, Hans Dampfs, or Mountain Kings?
    6. Do you use wheels designated for "All mountain" or "Enduro" use on regular trail rides?
    7. Do you watch Chris Akrigg, Dangerous Dan, or Ryan Leech videos for tips?


    Like I said, if you answered "yes" to any of these questions, please back away from this thread slowly and enjoy life elsewhere. Life is too short for certain debates.

    (*) At least one person I know disagrees with this and suggests this is entirely in my own head. Do not take a cyclocross bike there on the basis of my assertion that it does not require a mountain bike to be enjoyed. If you think Albion is full of technical challenges, have at it and enjoy yourself with my blessing.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenAnimator View Post
    Check out the extreme trail at kelso, a good example of making trails more technical. They have mountain bike courses there that teach kids how to ride smart and safe.

    i know of Kelso, great XC....
    the extreme trails you speek of, would this be the 6' rock drop?
    i remember a launch over a downed tree....had good times there!

    would any of these features be open to the public, or just during DH races?
    some years ago the 'rock drop' was closed to younger racers, aswell as hardtail dh racers....been awhile since ive been.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    this thread is not about sustainable trail practices but of meeting the needs of the community.


    i see plenty 10-12 year olds building small ramps/jumps in the unused spaces around bolton and shredding at the skate park. dirt jumps are being built by kids just outside of
    albion hills by the rail trail near palgrave. there are stunts on properties all around albion hills... the learn to walk argument is bs, why does a whole trail network has to be on a
    beginner level? considering the falling numbers at races and the activities going on outside the network this concept is not working (it hasn't been working for well over a decade). this group think is the elephant in the room.
    why are advanced trails built with the utmost secretcy? those built away from resorts...
    do you promote your trails that consist of features?

  42. #42
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    The simple reason there is very little in the way of truly advanced trails in Ontario. Can be answered by the 3 L's of Ontario trails,

    Liability
    Lawyer
    Lawsuit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    The simple reason there is very little in the way of truly advanced trails in Ontario. Can be answered by the 3 L's of Ontario trails,

    Liability
    Lawyer
    Lawsuit
    the hikers chant the same mantra...


    what about skate parks? the parks are unsupervised, no helmets, crowded, people catching huge air, and users of all levels...
    broadcasting from
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    build trail!

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    kiddy pool!
    good term
    broadcasting from
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    build trail!

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I think you're missing my point. I actually think most MTB trails in Ontario are already too difficult for something like 90% of people who own bikes. Making them harder won't really have any appreciable effect on participation.

    I'll give you a crazy hypothetical situation and you can give me a constructive suggestion.

    Let's say I want to go for a nice ride in the woods (no double track or rail trail please) with my six-month pregnant wife, my 70 year-old inlaws, my two nieces (ages 6 and 7) and my sister who hasn't been on a bike in three years. Where in the GTA do I take them? Not Albion, that's for sure; it's too advanced as it is for this group.

    (P.S. I actually do need an answer to this question so suggestions are most welcome. )
    google is your friend http://webhome.idirect.com/~brown/

    no one said there should be no beginner trails. what was said that the trail networks should represent the diversity of riders out there. what has happened is one segment has lead people to believe its own interest are those of the whole community. the same thing occurs with hikers, where a small segiment is anti mtbing (that sets policy), yet the majority of hikers have no problem with mtbers. thus the bias is perpetuated in the group think. you can see it in some of the post in this thread and you can see it in past threads...
    broadcasting from
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    build trail!

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    google is your friend http://webhome.idirect.com/~brown/

    no one said there should be no beginner trails. what was said that the trail networks should represent the diversity of riders out there. what has happened is one segment has lead people to believe its own interest are those of the whole community.
    1. Thanks, but those are rail trails. If I want to ride lovely singletrack in the forest with my aging parents and new-to-bikes nieces, where can we go?

    2. Diversity is exactly what there should be, and what doesn't seem to exist. You can certainly argue that there aren't enough technically advanced trails in Ontario. I would argue similarly that there aren't enough beginner TRAILS in Ontario. Which is more likely to lead those 10,000 new cyclists into the sport? Something they can ride that will encourage them to more difficult things, or something that is super intimidating?

    3. Not every trail has to be all things to all people. It's not a bad thing to have one network be geared to beginners, another to XC racers, another to downhillers and another to trials-type people.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    1. Thanks, but those are rail trails. If I want to ride lovely singletrack in the forest with my aging parents and new-to-bikes nieces, where can we go?

    2. Diversity is exactly what there should be, and what doesn't seem to exist. You can certainly argue that there aren't enough technically advanced trails in Ontario. I would argue similarly that there aren't enough beginner TRAILS in Ontario. Which is more likely to lead those 10,000 new cyclists into the sport? Something they can ride that will encourage them to more difficult things, or something that is super intimidating?

    3. Not every trail has to be all things to all people. It's not a bad thing to have one network be geared to beginners, another to XC racers, another to downhillers and another to trials-type people.
    Maybe you know the skill and endurance level of your parents and neices and nephews best. And you already had some places to ride in mind

    There's nothing wrong with getting off the bike and walking sections of trails that are considered technical and beyond the capabilities of any rider. Most people figure that out for themselves,

    The hot weather will hopefully kill off most of the mosquitos. Enjoy the outdoors wherever you go

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    1. Thanks, but those are rail trails. If I want to ride lovely singletrack in the forest with my aging parents and new-to-bikes nieces, where can we go?

    2. Diversity is exactly what there should be, and what doesn't seem to exist. You can certainly argue that there aren't enough technically advanced trails in Ontario. I would argue similarly that there aren't enough beginner TRAILS in Ontario. Which is more likely to lead those 10,000 new cyclists into the sport? Something they can ride that will encourage them to more difficult things, or something that is super intimidating?

    3. Not every trail has to be all things to all people. It's not a bad thing to have one network be geared to beginners, another to XC racers, another to downhillers and another to trials-type people.
    alot of rail trails actually go through nice cedar forests and interconnect other trailways, towns, etc...


    what is most likely lead the thousands of new riders to diverse trail networks is multiuse urban pathways... not driving for hours...

    it is very bad to have a mono use networks. it forces ghettoization of users, alienates the community and stakeholders, is not a green or sustainable practice, forces group think, does not promote equitable utilization of the green space, efficient use of resources, etc...
    broadcasting from
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    build trail!

  49. #49
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    I'm sure those trails are very nice but I asked for singletrack, not MUPs. Where in the GTA can I find a trail suitable for my beginner group ride?

    P.S. Walking your bike sucks!
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I'm sure those trails are very nice but I asked for singletrack, not MUPs. Where in the GTA can I find a trail suitable for my beginner group ride?

    P.S. Walking your bike sucks!
    Try Sunnybrook Park or the Don network there's all levels of trails in there. And you can get to either place by public transportation

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I'm sure those trails are very nice but I asked for singletrack, not MUPs. Where in the GTA can I find a trail suitable for my beginner group ride?

    P.S. Walking your bike sucks!
    mono, milton/halton, don area, durham, albion, credit river, etc all have basic trails as you well know since you ride in these areas. perhaps you can direct me and others to sanctioned, trails in these areas that are progressive and build on all the skills we would like to develop?

    whats wrong with walking your bike? they do it in o-cups...
    broadcasting from
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    build trail!

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Congratulations on being awesome!

    Still waiting on a real suggestion (TCT, feh, double-track fail).
    You have the real answer, you just don't like it... Safe double-track is what you're asking for. There are sections of the TCT that aren't as wide double-track, but by definition you've already excluded single-track. So you're either clueless or just playing a game here by demanding I produce a mythical single-doubletrack trail. Maybe you want something like a paved baby-bottom smooth asphalt mup through Albion and that is the reason for your complaints. I must say, Albion is pretty close in many sections. At any rate you need to take a time-out in the corner for putting forth such heresy! Pronto.

    A wise man once said you can't carpet the world, but you can carpet your feet. So why don't you teach people and kids how to carpet their feet instead advocating we go about carpeting our trails.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Congratulations on being awesome!

    Still waiting on a real suggestion (TCT, feh, double-track fail).
    I have a nice little trail. It's in the Don Valley... It's called the flats. Easy maybe 20 minute spin from the cricket lot to the DJ's. You can stop, sit, and watch the kids jumping. Admire Paul's handi work and the shed of doom. The easy spin back.

    If that's to challenging then just across the river is the paved path where you can mash it out with the weekend warriors.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    the hikers chant the same mantra...


    what about skate parks? the parks are unsupervised, no helmets, crowded, people catching huge air, and users of all levels...
    why do you always defer a response to your statements?
    hikers/skaters/bmxers/trials riders/dh pedaling technics to xc ect...ect...
    i understand where your coming from....but your sh1t talking is losing momentum!

    Liability
    Lawyer
    Lawsuit

    Ontario's Bike Park Destination Blue Mtn is still recovering from taking a ginormous leap backwards...im talking before shuttle vans time...what 10+ years maybe?, because of the 3 x L's.
    Stop ***** footing around the real issues man....it goes far beyond conservation areas/clipless pedals and stake holders....

    waivers mean sh1t
    PROGRESSIVE PARKS are out there......use them or lose them!

    were lucky to have the trails we do....very lucky!
    you'll have a hard time convincing the 'greater' mountain biker community that they must build risky/progressive trails to meet the needs of 'US' that have bought big bikes acting as a child......
    Last edited by dhpunk~; 07-03-2011 at 08:43 PM.

  55. #55
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    I can see where some people get "unchallenged" by Albion. Not enough rock gardens and 4-foot+ drop-offs I guess. Though within Toronto, I still think the Don Valley is the best thing going in terms of XC/slight all-mountain, as many people of all skill levels are seen there.

    Hey BrokenAnimator, have you tried Buckwallow, or anywhere in the Canadian Shield (Northern/Northwestern Ontario/Eastern Manitoba)? Maybe that's more up your alley in terms of a "challenge." Of course, there may not be a big enough hill for you to climb 8)

    Hey, here's a bike club that does weekly epic rides in the Canadian Shield:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/jfravene.../4/gZ-d7nDZaIk
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jfravene.../1/XppaEZbNWjg
    Last edited by FooFighter; 07-04-2011 at 12:54 AM.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by FooFighter View Post
    To people (e.g., BrokenAnimator et. al.,) who are unchallenged by their local trails,
    I don't think you understand what I posted, I never said I was unchallenged by my local trails once. Albion is not my local trail and I was surprised how uninteresting and flat it was compared to Kelso,Hardwood Hills and other places in Ontario. It was a disappointment and I would not go out of my way to go there again. I been cycling all over and that was the last place in Ontario I had not been to yet, so I tired it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by dhpunk~ View Post
    i know of Kelso, great XC....
    the extreme trails you speek of, would this be the 6' rock drop?

    would any of these features be open to the public, or just during DH races?
    Ironically the drops off the cliff are not part of the xtreme trail, but they are there and always open, I am more a cross-country guy so I avoid those. The xtreme trail though is just off the upper parking lot, off Steeles Ave. It has a little of everything, and was designed like that and it's mostly used by the younger riders. There are signs marking it saying xtreme trail and a xtreme trail bypass, so it gives everyone a choice.

  57. #57
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    Sorry BrokenAnimator, I edited my previous post.

    I know these are just words on a computer screen, and I try not to read too much into or read other people's minds on forums, or react inappropriately to posts, or pick a fight with someone, but what did you mean then exactly by agreeing to this:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by electrik

    Albion is fine, but lets be honest, it's the mtb version of a kiddy pool.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenAnimator View Post
    Bingo. Succinct and to the point
    But enough e-riding - I'm going out for a real ride 8)

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhpunk~ View Post
    why do you always defer a response to your statements?
    hikers/skaters/bmxers/trials riders/dh pedaling technics to xc ect...ect...

    if skate parks can exist with "Liability Lawyer Lawsuit" why not other activities?

    i understand where your coming from....but your sh1t talking is losing momentum!


    Ontario's Bike Park Destination Blue Mtn is still recovering from taking a ginormous leap backwards...im talking before shuttle vans time...what 10+ years maybe?, because of the 3 x L's.
    Stop ***** footing around the real issues man....it goes far beyond conservation areas/clipless pedals and stake holders....

    waivers mean sh1t

    and anybody can sue anbody at anytime

    PROGRESSIVE PARKS are out there......use them or lose them!

    sanctioned gta mtb parks? really where? the biggest issue was the lawsuit brought on by a rider in kolapore

    http://www.riskmanagementconsulting....-get-sued.html

    were lucky to have the trails we do....very lucky!

    yes we are, but we are also very unlucky compared to other areas in canada and elsewhere. why go backwards?

    you'll have a hard time convincing the 'greater' mountain biker community that they must build risky/progressive trails to meet the needs of 'US' that have bought big bikes acting as a child......
    the greater mtb community bingo! that includes everyone. not one segment acting petulant to other stakeholders in that greater mtb community.
    broadcasting from
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    build trail!

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    So you're either clueless or just playing a game here by demanding I produce a mythical single-doubletrack trail.
    I think in your own way, you're actually starting to see my point. The reason you can't actually come up with a suitable singletrack trail for my "hypothetical" beginner ride underlines the fact that none really exist. The Don Flats are close but playing chicken with GO trains isn't everyone's idea of a family-friendly ride.

    It's possible there are thousands of riders just sitting on the sidelines, ready to burst into Albion as soon as they built dirt jumps but it's not likely. So far, all I'm hearing is that beginners should either HTFU or stick to rail trails where they belong. And then I get treated to the tired old trope of how boring everything is. How inlcusive!

    It's really cute to dress up as an Advocate and talk about Stakeholders but all you really want are more trails for people just like you and the last time I checked, the middle-age superstar demographic was already pretty well served in Southern Ontario.
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by FooFighter View Post
    but what did you mean then exactly by agreeing to this:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by electrik

    Albion is fine, but lets be honest, it's the mtb version of a kiddy pool.



    But enough e-riding - I'm going out for a real ride 8)
    Seems pretty self explanatory. What do you not understand?

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    The Don Flats are close but playing chicken with GO trains isn't everyone's idea of a family-friendly ride.


    Maybe in 2006 or 2007. However there are ways around that.

    Mid construction 2007. Don Flats entrance near the Cricket lot.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Maybe in 2006 or 2007. However there are ways around that.

    Mid construction 2007. Don Flats entrance near the Cricket lot.
    There's also a route under the bridge at the south end near the DJs. That doesn't change the fact that part or all of the flats are on CN Rail land, that you must trespass to get there, that half-way along you must either ride next to the tracks or take an exposed route next to the river, and that you are riding in an area that CN deems too close to the tracks for public safety.

    I take my son there, however I would never argue with a parent who feels this is not a suitable trail for a family outing.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post

    I take my son there, however I would never argue with a parent who feels this is not a suitable trail for a family outing.
    Right there is the problem. Human interpretation of what is suitable. What one parent feels is okay the next will not while the other one will call children's aid.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    the greater mtb community bingo! that includes everyone. not one segment acting petulant to other stakeholders in that greater mtb community.
    Between your random 'threads' and rebuttals i cant figure out if your for a 'greater mtb community' or what?!? The traditional mtb'er doesnt have a clue whats going on throught the 'progressive' side of MTB'ing....for every video you post of 'progression' i could post 10x the carniage associated with such......
    now be honest, why would the traditional mtb'er want to add more risk's to thier trails ( as watered down as they may be!) and risk losing access to a riding destination that are hard to come by?
    Instead of busting the balls of those that manage/build mtb trails in conservations ect.., your efforts would be better of directed towards projects similar to Wiarton's Progressive Bike Park....which is now 'progression'-less!


    Originally Posted by dhpunk~
    why do you always defer a response to your statements?
    hikers/skaters/bmxers/trials riders/dh pedaling technics to xc ect...ect...

    if skate parks can exist with "Liability Lawyer Lawsuit" why not other activities?
    you want to compare a Bike Park most likely in a forest that would be difficult to monitor changing riding condition/erosion/tampered features to a engineered controlled enviroment such as a skate park? wtf....
    i understand where your coming from....but your sh1t talking is losing momentum!


    Ontario's Bike Park Destination Blue Mtn is still recovering from taking a ginormous leap backwards...im talking before shuttle vans time...what 10+ years maybe?, because of the 3 x L's.
    Stop ***** footing around the real issues man....it goes far beyond conservation areas/clipless pedals and stake holders....

    waivers mean sh1t

    and anybody can sue anbody at anytime
    Bingo....this guy with clipless pedals is not your enemy17.jpg waivers mean absolutely nothing....untill they do, your fight is bound within the grey area!
    PROGRESSIVE PARKS are out there......use them or lose them!

    sanctioned gta mtb parks? really where? the biggest issue was the lawsuit brought on by a rider in kolapore
    yep, everyone enjoyed that ****** bag....
    dh racer lawsuit, again after signing numerous legal ? waivers
    young kid cracking his skull at the bottom of a transition, this ofcourse is happening at our local resorts 'progression park' no less....


    http://www.riskmanagementconsulting....-get-sued.html

    were lucky to have the trails we do....very lucky!

    yes we are, but we are also very unlucky compared to other areas in canada and elsewhere. why go backwards?id say weve hit the legal hurdle....in this great province somebody or party is going to be responsible for another persons misjudgement....untill waivers carry the weight of the persons signature, you may aswell draw a large peni5 on it....
    there are many very good reasons why there are secret trails, of the 'progressive' nature.....trail nazi's arent the leading reason either!




    you'll have a hard time convincing the 'greater' mountain biker community that they must build risky/progressive trails to meet the needs of 'US' that have bought big bikes acting as a child......
    Last edited by dhpunk~; 07-04-2011 at 08:45 AM.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I think in your own way, you're actually starting to see my point. The reason you can't actually come up with a suitable singletrack trail for my "hypothetical" beginner ride underlines the fact that none really exist. The Don Flats are close but playing chicken with GO trains isn't everyone's idea of a family-friendly ride.

    It's possible there are thousands of riders just sitting on the sidelines, ready to burst into Albion as soon as they built dirt jumps but it's not likely. So far, all I'm hearing is that beginners should either HTFU or stick to rail trails where they belong. And then I get treated to the tired old trope of how boring everything is. How inlcusive!

    It's really cute to dress up as an Advocate and talk about Stakeholders but all you really want are more trails for people just like you and the last time I checked, the middle-age superstar demographic was already pretty well served in Southern Ontario.
    It's possible there are thousands of riders just sitting on the sidelines waiting for us to pave and limestone Albion - but not likely. I am saying HTFU in a less intense way, take for instance the fact one has to eventually take their training wheels off and join the big scary cycling world, that is the level of HTFU here. Maybe you see what i'm saying. Don't think I'm trying to push 10yr olds down the double black diamond and saying HTFU when they cry. It's beyond reasonable to carpet our trails by removing every last item that somebody could trip on or stub a toe or snag their figurative training wheels on and have an accident.

    There are always paved pathways to take a sunday stroll on and they're very inclusive. We should be inclusive in welcoming interested friends, however there is no rule which says we must dumb our sport down. That is something you're adding. Be too inclusive and you're gonna poison the heart of the sport. We need to keep in mind mountain biking's adventurous roots while watching those self-styled advocates who prune and manage the tree. If they're not faithful to its roots we need to remove our support.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    It's possible there are thousands of riders just sitting on the sidelines waiting for us to pave and limestone Albion - but not likely. I am saying HTFU in a less intense way, take for instance the fact one has to eventually take their training wheels off and join the big scary cycling world, that is the level of HTFU here. Maybe you see what i'm saying. Don't think I'm trying to push 10yr olds down the double black diamond and saying HTFU when they cry. It's beyond reasonable to carpet our trails by removing every last item that somebody could trip on or stub a toe or snag their figurative training wheels on and have an accident.

    There are always paved pathways to take a sunday stroll on and they're very inclusive. We should be inclusive in welcoming interested friends, however there is no rule which says we must dumb our sport down. That is something you're adding. Be too inclusive and you're gonna poison the heart of the sport. We need to keep in mind mountain biking's adventurous roots while watching those self-styled advocates who prune and manage the tree. If they're not faithful to its roots we need to remove our support.
    I think we're actually getting close to seeing eye to eye. At no point did I say we need to carpet existing trails (sustainable re-construction is topic best left to another thread...), what I'm saying is that we already have lots of trails for what I'll call "experienced" riders but very few for real-life beginners, young and old, male and female, from here or from away.

    I'm learning as I go that it's dead-easy to build singletrack that no one can ride but super-tough to build singletrack that EVERYONE can ride.
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post

    I'm learning as I go that it's dead-easy to build singletrack that no one can ride but super-tough to build singletrack that EVERYONE can ride.
    There is no such thing. Because each rider will have a different view of what is needed. Just like every beginner will have a different idea of what said trail should include.

    Hmm.... sounds similar to discussing religion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    There is no such thing. Because each rider will have a different view of what is needed. Just like every beginner will have a different idea of what said trail should include.

    Hmm.... sounds similar to discussing religion.
    ahh...was watching Bill Maher 'Religulous' last night....too funny!

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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I think we're actually getting close to seeing eye to eye. At no point did I say we need to carpet existing trails (sustainable re-construction is topic best left to another thread...), what I'm saying is that we already have lots of trails for what I'll call "experienced" riders but very few for real-life beginners, young and old, male and female, from here or from away.

    I'm learning as I go that it's dead-easy to build singletrack that no one can ride but super-tough to build singletrack that EVERYONE can ride.
    As someone previously responded, there are MANY MANY kms of pleasant and super easy singletrack through Sunnybrook, Taylor Creek and E T Seaton park, most of which runs parallel to the paved bike path/roads. I have ridden these with a beginner 6 yr old who had a great time. TBN used to lead beginner rides there all the time. Contact me if you want a tour.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by rckygrrl View Post
    As someone previously responded, there are MANY MANY kms of pleasant and super easy singletrack through Sunnybrook, Taylor Creek and E T Seaton park, most of which runs parallel to the paved bike path/roads. I have ridden these with a beginner 6 yr old who had a great time. TBN used to lead beginner rides there all the time. Contact me if you want a tour.
    I never let facts get in the way of an ideological debate!

    Seriously though, while I do know the Sunnybrook trails (I assume you mean the fitness trail) and the Seaton bits and pieces, I've never visited Taylor Creek. I'll have to check it out. How many km of contiguous "easy" singletrack are there in there?
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Yes, Albion is fine, but lets be honest, it's the mtb version of a kiddy pool.
    It's hard to put this into context without a scale of some sort. Here's one, perhaps folks who think Albion is a kiddie pool can fill in the blanks.

    _____ is the mtb version of a splashing in a puddle.
    Albion is the mtb version of a splashing in a kiddie pool.
    _____ is the mtb version of a swimming in a pool.
    _____ is the mtb version of a swimming in a pond or lake.
    _____ is the mtb version of a swimming in a river.
    _____ is the mtb version of scuba diving in a pool.
    _____ is the mtb version of white water kayaking.
    _____ is the mtb version of scuba diving on a tropical reef.
    _____ is the mtb version of scuba diving shallow wrecks.
    _____ is the mtb version of scuba diving Tobermorey's deep, cold, dark wrecks.
    _____ is the mtb version of cave diving.

    Again, I can't really argue one way or the other without some representative examples to get a feel for the scale. Where does St. Helenas Road fit? DH at Blue? The stunts on Dr. Quads? What about the lines on the North Shore?

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    Hmm, on that scale I'd put the official trails in the Dundas Valley in the splashing in a puddle spot (though they're physically demanding, they're quite wide). Hydrocut might be the lake and Puslinch maybe the river.

    EDIT: I'd put Squamish in the white water kayaking category.
    Last edited by garage monster; 07-05-2011 at 09:26 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Again, I can't really argue one way or the other without some representative examples to get a feel for the scale. Where does St. Helenas Road fit? DH at Blue? The stunts on Dr. Quads? What about the lines on the North Shore?
    dr quads is not a sanctioned trail...

    trail rating system info here,

    http://www.imba.com/resources/maps/t...iculty-ratings
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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    dr quads is not a sanctioned trail...

    trail rating system info here,

    http://www.imba.com/resources/maps/t...iculty-ratings
    Interesting that you should mention the IMBA trail-rating system as it's currently the topic of a lively discussion among the members of the IMBA Canada Google Group.

    For example, from one of the other Group members:

    Quote Originally Posted by IMBA Canada Google Group
    My own gut feeling about this which may not be worth anything is that
    the IMBA system tends to underestimate the difficulty of trails for
    casual/beginning MTBers.

    A 2" trail obstacle does not sound like much but it is easily enough
    to cause Mom or Dad or little Johnny to endo over if they've never
    been taught how to get over an obstacle and are on a non-suspended
    cruiser bike, for example.
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    trail rating system info here,

    [url
    http://www.imba.com/resources/maps/trail-difficulty-ratings[/url]

    By IMBA's definition, Albion would fall solidly in green and blue.
    A "kiddie pool" would be white.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I've never visited Taylor Creek. I'll have to check it out. How many km of contiguous "easy" singletrack are there in there?
    Define easy.

    Boomerang is maybe a blue square- some exposure, grunt climbs, and a bit of bridging.

    Hydro Trail- muddy in spots after rain and some spots will require you to cyclocross carry the bike.

    Training Loop maybe a green circle- short simple loop. The owner of the Don ripped out all bridging so no real stunts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Define easy.

    Boomerang is maybe a blue square- some exposure, grunt climbs, and a bit of bridging.

    Hydro Trail- muddy in spots after rain and some spots will require you to cyclocross carry the bike.

    Training Loop maybe a green circle- short simple loop. The owner of the Don ripped out all bridging so no real stunts.
    I was actually referring to the easy trails running parallel to the bike path and the creek, ( both sides of the creek) not the usual singletrack haunts. TSome of there trails are often frequented by dog walkers but everyone shares happily.

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    I kind of think physical difficulty and technical difficulty should be rated separately. Dundas Valley, for example, is technically easy, but physically taxing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    dr quads is not a sanctioned trail...

    trail rating system info here,

    http://www.imba.com/resources/maps/t...iculty-ratings
    The sanctioned/unsanctioned distinction is interesting, but not the focus of my question. Likewise with the IMBA rating system. Someone chose to use the "swimming" rating system to describe Albion. I am merely trying to get a feel for what a "kiddie pool" is and how it compares to other trails I've tried.

    For example, if every single XC trail in Ontario were to fall in the "kiddie pool" category, I would infer that the discussions around progressive trails and so on aren't really about Albion but about mountain biking in Ontario in the general sense. On the other hand, if no other XC trails are considered "kiddie pools" but fall into the white water category, then I would get that people think Albion is far, far to easy for experienced cyclists.

    I don't really know how to take "Albion is a kiddie pool" without some other examples to calibrate the "summing system." To that end, rating unsanctioned trails is perfectly useful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    I kind of think physical difficulty and technical difficulty should be rated separately. Dundas Valley, for example, is technically easy, but physically taxing.
    Certain rock climbing systems also rate the consequence of failure separately from the difficulty of ascent, adding an "R" or "X" for risky and extreme exposure. To that end, a narrow bridge crossing a low stream would have a higher difficulty rating than a wide bridge six feet off the ground, but the wide bridge might get an "R" for the consequences of a fall.

    Likewise two swoopy pieces of singletrack might be identically difficult, but if one follows a ridge line where going off course leads to a tumble down the hill, it might also get an "R" if there are substantial hazards.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Certain rock climbing systems also rate the consequence of failure separately from the difficulty of ascent, adding an "R" or "X" for risky and extreme exposure. To that end, a narrow bridge crossing a low stream would have a higher difficulty rating than a wide bridge six feet off the ground, but the wide bridge might get an "R" for the consequences of a fall.

    Likewise two swoopy pieces of singletrack might be identically difficult, but if one follows a ridge line where going off course leads to a tumble down the hill, it might also get an "R" if there are substantial hazards.
    That makes a lot of sense to me too. I have a minor fear of heights, so avoid stuff with a lot of exposure. I know people who are terrified of bridges too, even if they're easy.

  82. #82
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    Another facet of the IMBA debate is pondering whether a rating system should reflect the difficulty of the entire trail or just its most difficult feature. Fascinating stuff.

    I personally like the system Hardwood used to rate the XC skiing trails, which assigned ratings for physical and technical difficulty independently.
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    Judging by other pasttimes, the best way to promote an improved rating system is to publish a best-selling guidebook or set up a popular trail guide online. That will quickly become the dominant way to compare trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    That makes a lot of sense to me too. I have a minor fear of heights, so avoid stuff with a lot of exposure. I know people who are terrified of bridges too, even if they're easy.
    Not at Kim. You just aggravated a nerve I have on this.

    This is really the issue. That being fear of something on the trail. And alot of this seems to override common sense and respect for other riders. Actually been seeing this problem for about 25 years now.

    Easy example. I don't like drops higher then about waist height. Can't get rid of the fear of being hurt.. kind of funny considering I thought 25ft cliff drops on skiis are brilliant. Have a couple of others but that isn't important. Now with this I have 2 ways to deal with this fear... get upset, whine, and either rip them out and demand say the TRCA does that or understand that I can't and not impose my fear on others who can do it.

    Unfortunately we have become fear based. Because some fear it it is evil and must be removed. Hence all the people ripping roots out, logs, and so on. I have seen numerous times in the Don where people who fear roots or 6 inch logs that have been there for years rip them out. All because their fear stops them from adapting. So instead of accepting the fact they can't improve and accepting that they will have to dismount. And allowing the rest who can clear those sections. Will impose their will and force their fear on others by removing objects.



    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Judging by other pasttimes, the best way to promote an improved rating system is to publish a best-selling guidebook or set up a popular trail guide online. That will quickly become the dominant way to compare trails.
    A feller by the name of Rider Mel has done that for Ontario.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Not at Kim. You just aggravated a nerve I have on this.

    This is really the issue. That being fear of something on the trail. And alot of this seems to override common sense and respect for other riders.... Because some fear it it is evil and must be removed. Hence all the people ripping roots out, logs, and so on.
    Be careful with your reasoning. If we find someone ripping out a log from fear, this does NOT mean that all people who fear logs rip them out. Nor, for that matter, can we assume that all people who rip logs out do so from fear. Some may simply dislike logs and prefer a smooth, "flowy" experience.

    There is an issue with respect to people dictating how others will or will not enjoy the trails. But insensitivity to the needs of others is orthogonal to the issue of fear, as witnessed by the tenor of the people telling other bikers to "HTFU" if they want to enjoy the trails.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    ...
    Unfortunately we have become fear based. Because some fear it it is evil and must be removed. Hence all the people ripping roots out, logs, and so on. I have seen numerous times in the Don where people who fear roots or 6 inch logs that have been there for years rip them out. All because their fear stops them from adapting. So instead of accepting the fact they can't improve and accepting that they will have to dismount. And allowing the rest who can clear those sections. Will impose their will and force their fear on others by removing objects.
    ...
    Well said. I remember articles going over a decade previous, perhaps even part of the norba(?) rules of the trail - never remove or alter an obstacle that you haven't learned how to clean. Instead dismount and walk over - do not go around. There are lots of reasons people remove challenges, including to promote the feeling that you're a super-star by removing the counter-evidence... Dumbing trails down is like some sort of self sabotaging sand-bagging. We need depth to our pools. Even the kiddies eventually get tossed out of the kiddy pool and told to HTFU.


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    I'm going to leave this thread now. I simply cannot handle the testosterone and machismo on display. I will return when I have H'd The FU and reached a Jedi-level of arrogance and entitlement.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    I'm going to leave this thread now. I simply cannot handle the testosterone and machismo on display. I will return when I have H'd The FU and reached a Jedi-level of arrogance and entitlement.
    Oh come on... you're getting pretty upset about having to dismount if there is something above your skill level.


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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    rules of the trail - never remove or alter an obstacle that you haven't learned how to clean. Instead dismount and walk over - do not go around.
    +1

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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Some may simply dislike logs and prefer a smooth, "flowy" experience.
    So those who dislike logs should remove them and punish those who like them? So they expect me to respect them? While my idea and experience of Flow is different then others. I don't go around and impose it on others by say ripping out technical challenges or dirt jumps I don't like. I understand that there are others out there who do enjoy that which I dislike on trails. But then again I view it as how would I feel if I simply ripped out stuff I disliked and someone did the same to what I liked? Hmm sounds like the whole "Treat others the way you would like to be treated" lectures from our parents when we where kids. When we tried to impose our will of how we wanted it on others.

    Respect used to be about the following example using Albion Hills since it is the favorite bashing spot. A tree falls across the trail that is say 20 inches or more high. Present methodology seems to be to cut the whole thing out.

    The best way to do it is actually different. That being understanding that some will love the challenge while others hate it. So to make the skill challenged happy go slightly to the side and remove a section about 15 inches wide so they have an easy way round. While leaving the challenge for those who can. So both types have an option.

    Not great but a good example of what I'm talking about. You can see the chain ring marks.


    A Fail. The tree was in play as there was chain ring chunks in it.


    We seem to have lost this. Now it's cut everything out even if others enjoy it while I don't. I agree with Singlesprocket in this regard.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    ...
    Respect used to be about the following example using Albion Hills since it is the favorite bashing spot. A tree falls across the trail that is say 20 inches or more high. Present methodology seems to be to cut the whole thing out.
    ...
    Speaking of our chosen whipping boy, there used to actually be a few log-rides possible inside Albion, but all was removed 4-5 years ago? Specifically I think the section perhaps now ominously named "IMBA alley" was redone and those handful of features eliminated.

    You're right though - I've heard various guys state "they'll be back" for the log they didn't clear with a chainsaw. In a different time such log was usualy covered in chain-ring marks and some hand-prints in the mud on the other side. It usually stayed that way for a long time and was a triumph to have cleared! Sorry if that is too much insensitive machismo! Kidding.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    I'm going to leave this thread now. I simply cannot handle the testosterone and machismo on display.
    None here.

    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    I will return when I have H'd The FU and reached a Jedi-level of arrogance and entitlement.
    Hmm may want to look in the mirror about that.

    Unlike most here... I learned not by the net or some social media site. I learned by what was passed on down to me by others. Things like this,

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Well said. I remember articles going over a decade previous, perhaps even part of the norba(?) rules of the trail - never remove or alter an obstacle that you haven't learned how to clean. Instead dismount and walk over - do not go around.
    I learned from the older guys. Who when they told me ,

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    - never remove or alter an obstacle that you haven't learned how to clean. Instead dismount and walk over - do not go around.
    I understood it was not machismo or ego as some here call it. It was about understanding that there are people out there who can ride stuff I can't. Basically how can I expect other riders to respect what I can ride and not remove it if I don't respect those who can ride what I can't and remove stuff? It can't.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Oh come on... you're getting pretty upset about having to dismount if there is something above your skill level.

    This is just proving something. That being how factionalized and insular we have become. Now if you provide a middle ground solution you are being macho and basically a steroid junkey. You are self entitled and so on.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Oh come on... you're getting pretty upset about having to dismount if there is something above your skill level.

    This is what is wrong with your rhetoric. I am not upset about having to dismount, I actually enjoy riding trials and I seek out stunts and technical sections. I do not believe in cutting logs that fall across a trail, nor have I advocated building trails that are accessible to the masses.

    What I disagree with is the attitude that everyone who disagrees be painted with the same brush and the "us vs. them" attitude and the "this is the only way to do it" attitude.

    At no time have I suggested that people who like flowy trails have a right to remove stunts, logs, obstacles, rocks, or anything else. Nor have I suggested that people who like technical trails have a right to add technical features to trails. What did was say that there is more than simple "fear" at play here.

    From that, people are jumping to all sorts of conclusions about the kind of riding I like and what I fear. I'm sure you are all intelligent, likeable people, but your jumping to conclusions here rivals some of Geoff Gulevich's legendary road gapping exploits.

    Have you seen this man? Was he removing stunts from trails?





    Here is is doing what he does best:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    So those who dislike logs should remove them and punish those who like them? So they expect me to respect them? While my idea and experience of Flow is different then others. I don't go around and impose it on others by say ripping out technical challenges or dirt jumps I don't like. I understand that there are others out there who do enjoy that which I dislike on trails. But then again I view it as how would I feel if I simply ripped out stuff I disliked and someone did the same to what I liked? Hmm sounds like the whole "Treat others the way you would like to be treated" lectures from our parents when we where kids. When we tried to impose our will of how we wanted it on others.

    Respect used to be about the following example using Albion Hills since it is the favorite bashing spot. A tree falls across the trail that is say 20 inches or more high. Present methodology seems to be to cut the whole thing out.

    The best way to do it is actually different. That being understanding that some will love the challenge while others hate it. So to make the skill challenged happy go slightly to the side and remove a section about 15 inches wide so they have an easy way round. While leaving the challenge for those who can. So both types have an option.

    Not great but a good example of what I'm talking about. You can see the chain ring marks.


    A Fail. The tree was in play as there was chain ring chunks in it.


    We seem to have lost this. Now it's cut everything out even if others enjoy it while I don't. I agree with Singlesprocket in this regard.
    Booo to pic #2, is that taken from Kolapore perhaps?

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    Since I've already reneged on my promise to do something useful with my evening, I'll share some experience from another pastime, rock climbing. A major war broke out in the 80s when people started "sport climbing," meaning they placed bolts for protection on rappel. Worse, the climbers would hangdog the climbs, working moves over and over agin instead of climbing from the bottom up and placing protection as they went.

    There were two issues: An ethical issue and a conservation issue. If a climb can be done placing gear from the bottom up, placing bolts ruins the climb for those who wish to try the riskier way of placing the protection as you go. That'sa conservation issue. The ethical issue has to do with the rules of pissing matches. The old guard climbed from the bottom up and did not work moves. This is like always starting a trail from the beginning and retreating to the beginning when you dab. They resented people using the new, lax ethics.

    As if the bolting controversy wasn't bad enough, it got worse. People started "chipping and glueing," manufacturing holds where there were none with a cold chisel, glueing bits of rock on blank walls, even drilling finger pockets. Their argument was that they were making a climb where previously there was unclimbable rock. The counter-argument is that they are dumbing the rock down to their level and they should wait for the next generation, who would climb such "blank" or "impossible" routes naturally.

    The war got bad, with fist fights, crowbarring bolts out of the rock, and worse. One notorious chipper started working a hard route and the locals smeared it with axle grease every night to frustrate his attempts to establish a "new climb."

    Today there's an uneasy truce. In North America, manufacturing routes is now considered very poor form. Chipping or drilling an existing route to make it easier is absolutely wrong. Adding bolts to a route that has been climbed without them is only done when there is a consensus of locals that additional safety is a benefit to the sport. It is usually only done when nature erodes away some existing natural protection.

    Getting back to Mountain Biking, removing existing stunts or obstacles from a trail that is in regular use offends me. I have no opinion about cutting trees that fall onto a trail. This happened in Crothers Woods near the Loblaws Trailhead last year: A tree fell on the trail, and it was straightforward to ride over it, but somebody removed it. It was explained to me that the trail already had an established character. I was personally disappointed, but the explanation made sense.

    A month ago, Rckygrrl and I were riding Crothers and we came to the greasy, horrible off-camber section just south of the 60' 2'x6'. A fellow was cutting a ledge into the side of the hill, completely and absolutely ruining the technical challenge of riding that section. We did our best not to vomit on his handiwork, but to be honest I grit my teeth every time I ride it now. It was hard, but not THAT hard, I've cleaned it on my cyclocross bike, so how hard can it be? And besides, this is an existing trail. I disagree with his choice.

    I personally have a conservationist stance. I think existing trails should retain their character unless there is a consensus agreement to make changes. I am displeased when people saw or remove existing ride-overs. I don't even like braiding, to be honest, I would prefer that each trail have its own character rather than trying to make one trail appeal to everyone.

    At the same time, I appreciate the argument that when building new trails, we try to make something for everyone. Rock climbing crags have 5.6s and 5.14s, sometimes next to each other. I enjoy fast and flowy... Once in a while. I don't want the bridges of Dr. Quads removed or the drop zones cleared of rocks and impaling stumps. But I like that Motown has some challenges without the same sense of risk (not counting the ride-under that somedays is going to ring my bell but good).

    So there you have what I actually believe. Everyone should have a trail they can ride and like, but that doesn't mean every trail is going to be rideable or liked by everyone who rides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post

    But I like that Motown has some challenges without the same sense of risk (not counting the ride-under that somedays is going to ring my bell but good).
    Did that 2 weeks ago. Lesson for me .. remember where it is stupid and duck.

    Motown is a trail that is one of those old style trails Where if one doesn't make a corner or a section of the climb they would go back and try it again. It's one that requires practice to get good at it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Since I've already reneged on my promise to do something useful with my evening, I'll share some experience from another pastime, rock climbing. A major war broke out in the 80s when people started "sport climbing," meaning they placed bolts for protection on rappel. Worse, the climbers would hangdog the climbs, working moves over and over agin instead of climbing from the bottom up and placing protection as they went.

    There were two issues: An ethical issue and a conservation issue. If a climb can be done placing gear from the bottom up, placing bolts ruins the climb for those who wish to try the riskier way of placing the protection as you go. That'sa conservation issue. The ethical issue has to do with the rules of pissing matches. The old guard climbed from the bottom up and did not work moves. This is like always starting a trail from the beginning and retreating to the beginning when you dab. They resented people using the new, lax ethics.

    As if the bolting controversy wasn't bad enough, it got worse. People started "chipping and glueing," manufacturing holds where there were none with a cold chisel, glueing bits of rock on blank walls, even drilling finger pockets. Their argument was that they were making a climb where previously there was unclimbable rock. The counter-argument is that they are dumbing the rock down to their level and they should wait for the next generation, who would climb such "blank" or "impossible" routes naturally.

    The war got bad, with fist fights, crowbarring bolts out of the rock, and worse. One notorious chipper started working a hard route and the locals smeared it with axle grease every night to frustrate his attempts to establish a "new climb."

    Today there's an uneasy truce. In North America, manufacturing routes is now considered very poor form. Chipping or drilling an existing route to make it easier is absolutely wrong. Adding bolts to a route that has been climbed without them is only done when there is a consensus of locals that additional safety is a benefit to the sport. It is usually only done when nature erodes away some existing natural protection.

    Getting back to Mountain Biking, removing existing stunts or obstacles from a trail that is in regular use offends me. I have no opinion about cutting trees that fall onto a trail. This happened in Crothers Woods near the Loblaws Trailhead last year: A tree fell on the trail, and it was straightforward to ride over it, but somebody removed it. It was explained to me that the trail already had an established character. I was personally disappointed, but the explanation made sense.

    A month ago, Rckygrrl and I were riding Crothers and we came to the greasy, horrible off-camber section just south of the 60' 2'x6'. A fellow was cutting a ledge into the side of the hill, completely and absolutely ruining the technical challenge of riding that section. We did our best not to vomit on his handiwork, but to be honest I grit my teeth every time I ride it now. It was hard, but not THAT hard, I've cleaned it on my cyclocross bike, so how hard can it be? And besides, this is an existing trail. I disagree with his choice.

    I personally have a conservationist stance. I think existing trails should retain their character unless there is a consensus agreement to make changes. I am displeased when people saw or remove existing ride-overs. I don't even like braiding, to be honest, I would prefer that each trail have its own character rather than trying to make one trail appeal to everyone.

    At the same time, I appreciate the argument that when building new trails, we try to make something for everyone. Rock climbing crags have 5.6s and 5.14s, sometimes next to each other. I enjoy fast and flowy... Once in a while. I don't want the bridges of Dr. Quads removed or the drop zones cleared of rocks and impaling stumps. But I like that Motown has some challenges without the same sense of risk (not counting the ride-under that somedays is going to ring my bell but good).

    So there you have what I actually believe. Everyone should have a trail they can ride and like, but that doesn't mean every trail is going to be rideable or liked by everyone who rides.
    nobody is reading all that crap and nobody cares. it's just your opinion. others have their own opinion. you thinking your opinion is better than anybody else is a joke and sad.

    have a nice day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    The sanctioned/unsanctioned distinction is interesting, but not the focus of my question. Likewise with the IMBA rating system. Someone chose to use the "swimming" rating system to describe Albion. I am merely trying to get a feel for what a "kiddie pool" is and how it compares to other trails I've tried.

    For example, if every single XC trail in Ontario were to fall in the "kiddie pool" category, I would infer that the discussions around progressive trails and so on aren't really about Albion but about mountain biking in Ontario in the general sense. On the other hand, if no other XC trails are considered "kiddie pools" but fall into the white water category, then I would get that people think Albion is far, far to easy for experienced cyclists.

    I don't really know how to take "Albion is a kiddie pool" without some other examples to calibrate the "summing system." To that end, rating unsanctioned trails is perfectly useful.
    in other words you have nothing to add at the moment
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikrgrl View Post
    nobody is reading all that crap and nobody cares. it's just your opinion. others have their own opinion. you thinking your opinion is better than anybody else is a joke and sad.

    have a nice day.
    Considering that I never said my opinion matters to anyone but myself, what we have here is you making things up and then you arguing with the things you made up for yourself. This is known as arguing with a strawman.

    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    in other words you have nothing to add at the moment
    I asked a question to seek understanding. Is that wrong?

    This is a thread on a forum. Is there a formal resolution being discussed? Is this the meeting of anclub formed to accomplish some specific mission? No.

    A few of you are taking yourselves, your opinions, and this thread waaaaaaay too seriously. It's just idle chatter. People who question your opinions are not the enemy. An Internet forum is not a battle ground, and absolutely zero that matters will be decided here.

  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikrgrl View Post
    nobody is reading all that crap and nobody cares. it's just your opinion. others have their own opinion. you thinking your opinion is better than anybody else is a joke and sad.

    have a nice day.
    Well aren't you just a ray of sunshine!

    I care what everyone here thinks whether or not I agree with them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikrgrl View Post
    nobody is reading all that crap and nobody cares. it's just your opinion. others have their own opinion. you thinking your opinion is better than anybody else is a joke and sad.

    have a nice day.
    Wow, it sure looks like this person created a brand new account ( with a user name annoyingly close to mine) just to make make rude ad hominen type comments without having to be accountable. Sad.

    You are correct, "bikrgrl" - Raganwalds posts ARE just his opinion, and well golly gee, that is what forums are all about. Whatever you think of his posts, at no time did he ever (or would he ever!)say anything derogatory about anyone else, or ever claim to speak for anyone else.

    He may lean to the long-winded side, but there is always a cogent, well thought out point there. Agree, disagree, read or ignore, up to you, but personal remarks add nothing useful to the discussion.

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    haha...dumb if you not see the arrogance of posting then trying to argue with everyone because you think your opinion is better on something that has no right answer.

    Arguments are not even addressing the points, just random argument generator he pasted. I feel sorry for anyone that actually read all that crap, such a waste. Didn't want him to be under the delusion everyone cares what he thinks, because they don't.

  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikrgrl View Post
    haha...dumb if you not see the arrogance of posting then trying to argue with everyone because you think your opinion is better on something that has no right answer.

    Arguments are not even addressing the points, just random argument generator he pasted. I feel sorry for anyone that actually read all that crap, such a waste. Didn't want him to be under the delusion everyone cares what he thinks, because they don't.
    That's quite the public service you're performing! Thank you for sacrificing your reading time so that I don't have to. In future, I will wait until you deem a thread worthy or not before reading it.

  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikrgrl View Post
    haha...dumb if you not see the arrogance of posting then trying to argue with everyone because you think your opinion is better on something that has no right answer.

    Arguments are not even addressing the points, just random argument generator he pasted. I feel sorry for anyone that actually read all that crap, such a waste. Didn't want him to be under the delusion everyone cares what he thinks, because they don't.

    Agreed!

    lets not get too worked up

  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by rckygrrl View Post
    Wow, it sure looks like this person created a brand new account ( with a user name annoyingly close to mine) just to make make rude ad hominen type comments without having to be accountable. Sad.
    It wouldn't be the first time someone created a new account to get something off their chest. A few members have even made dummy accounts to reveal shockingly personal news.
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  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhpunk~ View Post
    lets not get too worked up
    Agreed!

    I apologize for any lack of civility on my part, whether deliberate or through lack of consideration. We're all on the same team, we are all striving for the same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    It wouldn't be the first time someone created a new account to get something off their chest. A few members have even made dummy accounts to reveal shockingly personal news.
    Complain of ad hominem attacks, yet that is what you do, funny your blank on the irony.

    Only argue because you don't like people giving their opinion on Albion and want it to stop, like a dumb game to you and I am not being sucked in.

    Good day.

  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikrgrl View Post
    I am not being sucked in.
    Hahahahahahaha! I love irony.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bikrgrl View Post
    haha...dumb if you not see the arrogance of posting then trying to argue with everyone because you think your opinion is better on something that has no right answer.

    Arguments are not even addressing the points, just random argument generator he pasted. I feel sorry for anyone that actually read all that crap, such a waste. Didn't want him to be under the delusion everyone cares what he thinks, because they don't.
    i'm confused- where did he say that his opinion is better? I actually read the whole post and didn't see that part. "Arrogant " is your personal assumption. And speaking of arrogant, is there some secret rep power that you have that grants you power here to speak for "everyone"?

    Anyways, I do agree that there is no single right answer, but there are always interesting and different points of view, that's why we have a forum in the first place, no?

  111. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    I did check out the newer trails built in Albion Hills and was rather disappointed. To improve the number of riders, increase tourism, and engage youth, we need a fundamental shift in the way trails are built and engage stakeholders that are currently being excluded.
    I am surprised nobody has asked the important question yet. What are YOU doing in your local area to address the issues above?

  112. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Agreed!

    I apologize for any lack of civility on my part, whether deliberate or through lack of consideration. We're all on the same team, we are all striving for the same thing.
    its easy to get carried away, theres lots at stake for those that have something dear to them.....we cant take any trail (be it tame or advanced) for granted! lots of hard work has been laid down....it can be taken away, for a strip mall no less....at any given time!

  113. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikrgrl View Post
    Complain of ad hominem attacks, yet that is what you do, funny your blank on the irony.

    Only argue because you don't like people giving their opinion on Albion and want it to stop, like a dumb game to you and I am not being sucked in.

    Good day.
    I didn't say anything about ad hominem attacks (at least not in this thread anyway, ). People are entitled to their opinions and I'm entitled to disagree with them.

    Lots of people create accounts when something ticks them off in here. Just last year, a guy that didn't like the way I swept him and his wife at the Squeezer had a whole big tirade. Live and let live.
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  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Just last year, a guy that didn't like the way I swept him and his wife at the Squeezer had a whole big tirade.
    How sad, for the both of you.

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lwhicker View Post
    How sad, for the both of you.
    I couldn't agree more. There was also the guy that called me a Nazi for laughing at a Rob Ford satire video that electrik posted. I'm sure the list of people who don't like me on the internet is as long as my arm but I'm comfortable with that.
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  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I'm sure the list of people who don't like me on the internet is as long as my arm but I'm comfortable with that.
    Never confuse duty with dislike. It's rarely personal no matter what people write.

  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lwhicker View Post
    How sad, for the both of you.
    Welcome to the forum. This certainly seems to be the thread to attract new posters.

    Reminds me of February when I thought seasonal affective disorder was affecting people. This time, I have no explanation.

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhpunk~ View Post
    .we cant take any trail (be it tame or advanced) for granted! lots of hard work has been laid down....it can be taken away, for a strip mall no less....at any given time!
    Bingo.

    Kingston this year had a great example of this. Much talk of a riders meeting to deal with the muni and weeks later... Zilch.

  119. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    I am surprised nobody has asked the important question yet. What are YOU doing in your local area to address the issues above?
    myself i build and donated structures and materials, pick up garbage, document and provide reports, show up on trail days around the gta (this weekend i'm doing one on mnr land near bobcaygeon), sit on watershed committees and volunteer my time at no cost... i really detest the saying to people "what have you done?" because that infers exclusion if you have not done what is considered the standard by the self perscribed peers (which are present on this forum). volunteerism sometimes is restricted by ones socioeconomic status, as well as health and other factors. for this reason and others it is important to have a trail plan that is overseen by stakeholders (big and small) from the community with appropriate check and balances...
    Last edited by singlesprocket; 07-06-2011 at 11:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Reminds me of February when I thought seasonal affective disorder was affecting people. This time, I have no explanation.
    Probably an outbreak of chronic lackanookie.
    I'm not a doctor so I could be wrong, but I did take an intro to psychology course in college.

  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    myself i build and donated structures and materials, pick up garbage, document and provide reports, show up on trail days around the gta (this weekend i'm doing one on mnr land near bobcaygeon), sit on watershed committees and volunteer my time at no cost... i really detest the saying to people "what have you done?" because that infers exclusion if you have not done what is considered the standard by the self perscribed peers (which are present on this forum). volunteerism sometimes is restricted by ones socioeconomic status, as well as health and other factors. for this reason and others it is important to have a trail plan that is overseen by stakeholders (big and small) from the community with appropriate check and balances...
    i should also add... what people should say is "what can i do to get you to volunteer?"

    this is a very important point that is not asked enough... cough cough...
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  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Th

    What I disagree with is the attitude that everyone who disagrees be painted with the same brush and the "us vs. them" attitude and the "this is the only way to do it" attitude.

    What did was say that there is more than simple "fear" at play here.
    Sorry, but doing it both ways doesn't work out in reality. Trailspace is finite and that means we must choose an actual way todo it. Currently people are choosing to water it all down for you since that is the safest option.

    Of course there is more than fear at play(you don't say what), but fear of(insensitivity, exclusivity, bodily harm, feeling intimidated) is the root item driving this discussion, sanitizing the various trails and really worth pointing out.

  123. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    ... i really detest the saying to people "what have you done?" because that infers exclusion if you have not done what is considered the standard by the self perscribed peers (which are present on this forum). volunteerism sometimes is restricted by ones socioeconomic status, as well as health and other factors. for this reason and others it is important to have a trail plan that is overseen by stakeholders (big and small) from the community with appropriate check and balances...
    Yet this very statement excludes people as well.

    There are riders who will never show up to a trail day or attend a meeting. Yet these same people will do things like clear out drainage. hack back brush, and so on.

    I admit I'm one. Can't stand meetings and politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    i should also add... what people should say is "what can i do to get you to volunteer?"

    this is a very important point that is not asked enough... cough cough...
    Biggest would be to stop holding up trails work days as this Holey Grail. Some like Marshall of Madman Tours used to be the guy who organized the Sunday or Saturday rides in the Don.

    Oh, and tone down the whole "Do as I say because I own this" rheotoric. Thank you Mr I Own the Don. That stuff drives people who are helping away faster then an Ebola outbreak.

  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    for this reason and others it is important to have a trail plan that is overseen by stakeholders (big and small) from the community with appropriate check and balances...
    Back in March when I was writing my trail plan, I started this thread. I got some very nice touchy-feely responses from my some of my stakeholders (i.e. you guys), including:

    Quote Originally Posted by singlesproket
    actually anywhere i can ride in the forest is my favorite trail...
    though the trails out my front door i enjoy the most (humber watershed), don't have to drive. just jump on the bike and go
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    The one I cut my teeth on, spent time building and countless hours riding. It has no name, wasn't great as far as these other trails and has hopelessly naturalized now. All these other trails are extensions of that one.
    How'd we get from there to where we are in this thread? How does this reflect on what I put in my plan?

    You can see raganwald's dilema. All he wanted was some context. If Albion doesn't fit your own words, what does?
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  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    How'd we get from there to where we are in this thread? How does this reflect on what I put in my plan?

    You can see raganwald's dilema. All he wanted was some context. If Albion doesn't fit your own words, what does?
    Huh, where'd you pull that trashy comment from... I suspect that was from a question from a different thread about, what was my favourite trail?

    I don't know about your plan... so can't comment. Unless you mean the trail version of "cheeze-whiz" plan! Then i know this plan and have already commented.

    I'm not going to categorize trails(what you're asking - not really context). Categorization is a waste of time as you're bound to fail and it is pretty much the one thing that started this problem regarding Guaranteed™ riding satisfaction. No customer disappointed. If you want to know, just ride it and decide for yourself. People have brains.

  126. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Huh, where'd you pull that trashy comment from... I suspect that was from a question from a different thread about, what was my favourite trail?
    Hey, I learned my lesson last week: I included a link!
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  127. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Hey, I learned my lesson last week: I included a link!
    Yeah, i noticed after... but remembered correctly anyways.

  128. #128
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    actually i've posted probally about a hundred threads on this subject and i would say about half the reponses here is atypical with generally the same cast of characters.
    in the forum responses. i've been, libeled. ridiculed, threatened, bullyed, etc (as well as people who have the same views/observations)... i might also add that these cast of characters are the strongest advocates of maintaining the status quo of the current trail
    network in albion hills. it raises questions that need to be answered and eventually will
    be answered under proper due deligence. with the shrinking green spaces an the expanding population of peel trail networks are a valuable/important resource for all stakeholders and should be shared equability. one also has to consider enviromental/naturalization aspects of a trail networks (but that is a whole other thread).
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  129. #129
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    You make an interesting point but I have a question.

    If you consider that the EC forum does represent at least one group of stakeholders (ie. people who currently ride MTBs in Southern Ontario/the GTA) and let's say, by a majority, however slim, we enjoy riding at Albion just the way it is, how would you incorporate that information in your trail plan? Would we be anomalous respondants?
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  130. #130
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    Honestly the EC forum is not really a good representation. Maybe i'm stating the obvious, but this forum collects the XC weirdness like crazy. Meanwhile other forums like dropmachine(RIP) will collect a different crowd. They're two tips from the same ice-berg. I don't remember seeing threads over their about this polling of the community from people over here. Singlesprocket does both though and often takes quite a flaming for it. Perhaps things like that are symptomatic of the required physical division and differences on the trail. Dropmachine guys create features and such while mtbr guys remove those features so they can post faster laps. Most of us don't do anything. Yes there is a broad continuum of trail tastes, but that doesn't mean in reality there won't have to be a distinct division. It's pretty hard to put half a stunt in!

  131. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Dropmachine guys create features and such while mtbr guys remove those features so they can post faster laps.
    I must have missed something. Who are the "mtbr guys" that you refer to above who are actively engaged in the process of removing trail features?

  132. #132
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    I'd consider myself an mtbr guy.
    but if there are features on the trails I'll try them or walk over if it's more than I can handle.
    I ride regularily with a large group of people with the same mind set.
    many have built features also but are XC riders.
    It's a very small minority that remove features and in some cases it's the hiking groups.

  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    I must have missed something. Who are the "mtbr guys" that you refer to above who are actively engaged in the process of removing trail features?
    If you've been paying attention you'll know who.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    If you've been paying attention you'll know who.
    Let's assume that I haven't been paying attention. Which "mtbr guys" (or gals) are you referring to, and what features have they removed from which trails?

    I'm not saying it's never happened, but if you are going to state it as factual information of events that you purport DID happen then it would be nice to have specifics please.

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    If you've been paying attention you'll know who.
    The only thing I can honestly remember is when you had that big blow-up with Satan2 over Coulson's. Maybe I missed something in the interim.

    For the record, I do pull freshly downed trees (like after a massive wind storm) off trails if I can manage it but I personally consider that a maintenance function.
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  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    If you've been paying attention you'll know who.
    You have to remember there is a very small group of people that frequent this board and know the details of who is who. The majority of people that read this board want to get local information on trails, events, or whatever locally and not here to just "hang" out and post in every single thread they see. Like me, most people just come to get information.

    I didn't know there was so much controversy about Albion here, nor did I know that there was a group of people that would waste time arguing with anyone saying anything negative about Albion. Honestly I think Albion is probably the most boring trail system in Ontario we have, but I am not going to waste too much of my time arguing that, in the end it's not my local trail and all I would do is not go out of my way to go there anymore, as it's not worth it for many as they have better trails close by.

    Anyways, just a reminder there is a lot more lurkers than posters, and most people don't even pay attention to the user but the content of the post. It's not a pissing contest like most of these threads seem to develop into.

    The most important point is riding your bike, where you ride it is secondary to me. I have a trek Madone I ride on the road all the time, it's not like it's a better way to ride your bike, it's just different and IMO a good trail system will try and accommodate ALL riding styles.

    It's not like trails have to be one or the other....you can have all types of trails close together, seems so irrational to me to take sides on this when Albion or any trail system can be diverse, and not just for one riding style. To even argue about it just defies logic as if there was an "Advanced" trail built, it would not affect beginner riders, they would just avoid it.

    So it's just silly to be so dam defensive about Albion, there is no need for such irrational back and forth, if an advance trail is built, beginners avoid it and vice versa. Not hard to figure out. To take sides on this issue like it some type of school yard war where you can't touch my area is just ridiculous and a waste for everyone.

  137. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Let's assume that I haven't been paying attention. Which "mtbr guys" (or gals) are you referring to, and what features have they removed from which trails?

    I'm not saying it's never happened, but if you are going to state it as factual information of events that you purport DID happen then it would be nice to have specifics please.
    Perhaps futilely I'm not going to name people and i'm also not speaking about some sort of remodeling of an entire trail(though the coulsons hill thing stands out). A few people have, perhaps innocently, talked about altering and tweaking various features. Usually not the regulars. It's possible those peripheral people think they're keeping the trail "clean" or helping out their fellow but, I don't even think there is a question that something like this has happened. I just wonder how often it happens.

    What i'm sort of getting at in this thread, is lately i feel things are out of the normal homeostasis and trending towards the "clean" trail approach. It seems to me one has to keep going further outside of the GTA to find more wild trails. Probably it's mostly anti-social hikers doing this sort of sanitizing, but sometimes i find a mountain biker(on the occasions i have it's been an XC guy training for a race or something) doing the sanitizing by removing the one or two features snagging them.

  138. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenAnimator View Post
    It's not like trails have to be one or the other....you can have all types of trails close together, seems so irrational to me to take sides on this when Albion or any trail system can be diverse, and not just for one riding style. To even argue about it just defies logic as if there was an "Advanced" trail built, it would not affect beginner riders, they would just avoid it.

    So it's just silly to be so dam defensive about Albion, there is no need for such irrational back and forth, if an advance trail is built, beginners avoid it and vice versa. Not hard to figure out. To take sides on this issue like it some type of school yard war where you can't touch my area is just ridiculous and a waste for everyone.
    +1 to all of the above. I doubt you'd find anyone who would disagree even among the so-called "mtbr guys", as it pertains to Albion Hills or any other trail system. The points of contention I see are;

    1) Suggesting that the character of existing trails should be or needs to be changed. That would be as much of a faux pas as removing TTFs from a trail that was purposely built from scratch for the purpose of having TTFs.

    2) Assuming that it's XC racers who want to have trails sanitized. There could be many reasons including but not limited to liability exposure, sustainability, the user/usage types that the landowner wants to attract, etc.

    3) Here's the big ticket item... wait for it... some bizarre notion that user types who aren't as interested in riding TTF heavy trails should be involved in securing access to or building such trails. To those who do lean in this direction, it's not other riders who are stopping them, it's that they are falling short in creating cohesiveness amongst their own user group, and failing to present a viable package to landowners which convinces them of the value of participating in such projects. I'd rather see them succeed, even if I don't ride those trails, but blaming other rider segments because they can't get the wheels in motion to make it happen is just passing the buck.

  139. #139
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    As singlesprocket noted, greenspace in the GTA is extremely limited. Rogue building has its limits so we need to market ourselves to public land managers and since most of them have such broad mandates (and extremely limited funds), they need to realize a benefit for the greatest slice of the citizenry as then can with every project. Beginners shouldn't have to avoid it and great riders should find it challenging.

    Imagine a scene like this:

    Public Land Manager: "As you know, our user group is very diverse. Will the network you're planning attract families and beginners as well as experienced riders?"

    Rad Guy: "Dude! It will be so gnarly, most people will have to walk it. Rachel Atherton will be able to ride it but that's about it for girls."

    PLM: "I don't know who that is."

    RG: "You're so boring!"

    If I seem protective of Albion, it's because I have every reason to be. My friends built many of the trails there. My first trail day was there. I wouldn't be building where I am now if my local land manager hadn't visited and thought the model worked.
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    . Beginners shouldn't have to avoid it
    Of course they should! When I first started out there were many trails I knew to avoid if I didn't know how to pick a proper line or balance in one spot on my bike for over a minute and "bunny hop" over things.

    I aspired to ride those trails one day and it gave me motivation. The day I started riding these trails and mastering them was a great feeling of achievement and pride.

    Robbing kids of this feeling is almost taking the soul out of mountain biking. If they just want to ride to get fit and hammer on pedals, then stay on the road.

    Also I will add, that when you get older like myself, and the fitness goes. It's the technical riding knowledge you have that stays with you for life. Not how fast you can ride, you can leave that for the kids, but knowing the technicalities of riding, sticks with you for life.

  141. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post

    3) Here's the big ticket item... wait for it... some bizarre notion that user types who aren't as interested in riding TTF heavy trails should be involved in securing access to or building such trails. To those who do lean in this direction, it's not other riders who are stopping them, it's that they are falling short in creating cohesiveness amongst their own user group, and failing to present a viable package to landowners which convinces them of the value of participating in such projects. I'd rather see them succeed, even if I don't ride those trails, but blaming other rider segments because they can't get the wheels in motion to make it happen is just passing the buck.
    Disappointed i had to wait for that!

    You're casting the situation as if it's some failing of character when the XC crowd comes by and flattens your local trail. Good job. Why not just state people who aren't 100% XC are losers with only themselves to blame when a more competitive crowd takes over. That seems way easier than your polite message about anti-social scatterbrains.

  142. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    As singlesprocket noted, greenspace in the GTA is extremely limited. Rogue building has its limits so we need to market ourselves to public land managers and since most of them have such broad mandates (and extremely limited funds), they need to realize a benefit for the greatest slice of the citizenry as then can with every project. Beginners shouldn't have to avoid it and great riders should find it challenging.

    Imagine a scene like this:

    Public Land Manager: "As you know, our user group is very diverse. Will the network you're planning attract families and beginners as well as experienced riders?"

    Rad Guy: "Dude! It will be so gnarly, most people will have to walk it. Rachel Atherton will be able to ride it but that's about it for girls."

    PLM: "I don't know who that is."

    RG: "You're so boring!"

    If I seem protective of Albion, it's because I have every reason to be. My friends built many of the trails there. My first trail day was there. I wouldn't be building where I am now if my local land manager hadn't visited and thought the model worked.
    Scary, but that reminds me of a guy who looks at a forest and see's it's potential to become a golf course. Then goes on and tells people we can only make golf courses from the forests because the last golf course was a huge success.

  143. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Disappointed i had to wait for that!

    You're casting the situation as if it's some failing of character when the XC crowd comes by and flattens your local trail. Good job. Why not just state people who aren't 100% XC are losers with only themselves to blame when a more competitive crowd takes over. That seems way easier than your polite message about anti-social scatterbrains.
    I have no control over what you read into my message. As I've stated every time the opportunity arises for my entire posting history on MTBR, I don't place any one rider group as being superior to any other. XC, DH, FR, AM, trials, BMX, Jumping, road, CX, track, uni, bike polo etc. I ride several of those disciplines, in addition to just being an everyday bike commuter. For those I don't participate in I am still an interested observer. Everyone is welcome to enjoy whatever type of riding they want. They're all good.

    However, in terms of allocation of resources I don't believe that any one segment has an obligation to subsidize the other's efforts, if that's not a type of riding they are interested in. If a segment isn't able to carve out the niche they want for any number of reasons, that's just the world at large finding its equilibrium.

    I have some other recreational activities I participate in, as do members of my family that don't get receive the level of support, interest, or access to facilities that I wish we had. If I don't like the present situation my choices are to try to change it or find another activity. If I'm unwilling to try, or unable to effect change, so be it. That's life.

  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenAnimator View Post
    Of course they should! When I first started out there were many trails I knew to avoid if I didn't know how to pick a proper line or balance in one spot on my bike for over a minute and "bunny hop" over things.

    I aspired to ride those trails one day and it gave me motivation. The day I started riding these trails and mastering them was a great feeling of achievement and pride.

    Robbing kids of this feeling is almost taking the soul out of mountain biking. If they just want to ride to get fit and hammer on pedals, then stay on the road.

    Also I will add, that when you get older like myself, and the fitness goes. It's the technical riding knowledge you have that stays with you for life. Not how fast you can ride, you can leave that for the kids, but knowing the technicalities of riding, sticks with you for life.
    I hope we aren't working from the false dichotomy that trail systems can either appeal to beginners and flow fans or technical riders but not both. I'm not a big fan of braiding, but surely a trail network can be designed to offer loops and sub-trails with a variety of styles, challenges, and exposures.

    Or is that deemed undesirable in some way?

  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    I have no control over what you read into my message. As I've stated every time the opportunity arises for my entire posting history on MTBR, I don't place any one rider group as being superior to any other. XC, DH, FR, AM, trials, BMX, Jumping, road, CX, track, uni, bike polo etc. I ride several of those disciplines, in addition to just being an everyday bike commuter. For those I don't participate in I am still an interested observer. Everyone is welcome to enjoy whatever type of riding they want. They're all good.

    However, in terms of allocation of resources I don't believe that any one segment has an obligation to subsidize the other's efforts, if that's not a type of riding they are interested in. If a segment isn't able to carve out the niche they want for any number of reasons, that's just the world at large finding its equilibrium.

    I have some other recreational activities I participate in, as do members of my family that don't get receive the level of support, interest, or access to facilities that I wish we had. If I don't like the present situation my choices are to try to change it or find another activity. If I'm unwilling to try, or unable to effect change, so be it. That's life.
    You won't last long in the Stakeholders Socialist Army comrade.

  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by rckygrrl View Post
    I hope we aren't working from the false dichotomy that trail systems can either appeal to beginners and flow fans or technical riders but not both. I'm not a big fan of braiding, but surely a trail network can be designed to offer loops and sub-trails with a variety of styles, challenges, and exposures.

    Or is that deemed undesirable in some way?
    What she said.

  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenAnimator View Post
    So it's just silly to be so dam defensive about Albion, there is no need for such irrational back and forth.
    just as silly as being so offensive about albion

  148. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by rckygrrl View Post
    I hope we aren't working from the false dichotomy that trail systems can either appeal to beginners and flow fans or technical riders but not both. I'm not a big fan of braiding, but surely a trail network can be designed to offer loops and sub-trails with a variety of styles, challenges, and exposures.

    Or is that deemed undesirable in some way?
    Read my previous post...not going to repeat myself.

  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    just as silly as being so offensive about albion
    I could care less about Albion. Been cycling for over 25 years without going to it once and never regretted it.

    You could have the shittiest trail system in the world and people will still go to it because it's so close to Toronto and that's about all Albion has going for it is location.

  150. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenAnimator View Post
    I could care less about Albion. Been cycling for over 25 years without going to it once and never regretted it.

    You could have the shittiest trail system in the world and people will still go to it because it's so close to Toronto and that's about all Albion has going for it is location.
    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenAnimator View Post
    there is no need for such irrational back and forth.

    I see what you're saying

  151. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    I see what you're saying
    Irrational back and forth is devoid of a point, I can see you don't understand this concept.

  152. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    I have no control over what you read into my message. As I've stated every time the opportunity arises for my entire posting history on MTBR, I don't place any one rider group as being superior to any other. XC, DH, FR, AM, trials, BMX, Jumping, road, CX, track, uni, bike polo etc. I ride several of those disciplines, in addition to just being an everyday bike commuter. For those I don't participate in I am still an interested observer. Everyone is welcome to enjoy whatever type of riding they want. They're all good.

    However, in terms of allocation of resources I don't believe that any one segment has an obligation to subsidize the other's efforts, if that's not a type of riding they are interested in. If a segment isn't able to carve out the niche they want for any number of reasons, that's just the world at large finding its equilibrium.

    I have some other recreational activities I participate in, as do members of my family that don't get receive the level of support, interest, or access to facilities that I wish we had. If I don't like the present situation my choices are to try to change it or find another activity. If I'm unwilling to try, or unable to effect change, so be it. That's life.
    in other words survival of the fittest.. if that is indeed the managment/consultant practice of a tract or a part there of toward citizen/s. then it can be against several charters of the authority, municipality/region, etc...
    broadcasting from
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    build trail!

  153. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenAnimator View Post
    Irrational back and forth is devoid of a point, I can see you don't understand this concept.
    good to see you understand it

  154. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    However, in terms of allocation of resources I don't believe that any one segment has an obligation to subsidize the other's efforts, if that's not a type of riding they are interested in. If a segment isn't able to carve out the niche they want for any number of reasons, that's just the world at large finding its equilibrium.

    If I'm unwilling to try, or unable to effect change, so be it. That's life.
    Exactly, so why permit one group to deny grandfathering to another. That is what went on at Albion when all those "ttfs" disappeared. That is almost a form of piracy since older users are forced to subsidize an entity like imba's vision with their favourite trails. If your idea of equilibrium is that there is a magical invisible hand of trail fairness that corrects the imbalances i'm disappointed at such populist laziness from somebody who espouses their love for a wide variety of riding styles.

  155. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    good to see you understand it
    Thanks for proving my point.

  156. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    in other words survival of the fittest.. if that is indeed the managment/consultant practice of a tract or a part there of toward citizen/s. then it can be against several charters of the authority, municipality/region, etc...
    If you think it will improve your position, you are within your rights to attend the next stakeholders meeting and describe how a person who lives in another province may not be strictly adhering to the lettter of the land management authorities charter in the opinions written in posts on an internet discussion forum.

    I'm guessing that won't be given much weight in the proceedings, but you are welcome to give it a shot.

  157. #157
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    great ride tonight, took out the ferrari for spin through south hill bolton. timing was great since there was a long freight train passing through town.

    here is a pic of the ferrari...



    the number of looks garnered by the bicycle was unsettling....

    love these flowers...



    berries!

    broadcasting from
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    build trail!

  158. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by rckygrrl View Post
    I hope we aren't working from the false dichotomy that trail systems can either appeal to beginners and flow fans or technical riders but not both. I'm not a big fan of braiding, but surely a trail network can be designed to offer loops and sub-trails with a variety of styles, challenges, and exposures.

    Or is that deemed undesirable in some way?
    Sounds like something I would write... If I was using my iPad... And Rckygrrl had been using it earlier to browse mtbr.com... And she was still logged in... And I didn't notice...

    Impersonating a woman. What a drag.

  159. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    +1 to all of the above. I doubt you'd find anyone who would disagree even among the so-called "mtbr guys", as it pertains to Albion Hills or any other trail system. The points of contention I see are;

    1) Suggesting that the character of existing trails should be or needs to be changed. That would be as much of a faux pas as removing TTFs from a trail that was purposely built from scratch for the purpose of having TTFs.

    2) Assuming that it's XC racers who want to have trails sanitized. There could be many reasons including but not limited to liability exposure, sustainability, the user/usage types that the landowner wants to attract, etc.

    3) Here's the big ticket item... wait for it... some bizarre notion that user types who aren't as interested in riding TTF heavy trails should be involved in securing access to or building such trails. To those who do lean in this direction, it's not other riders who are stopping them, it's that they are falling short in creating cohesiveness amongst their own user group, and failing to present a viable package to landowners which convinces them of the value of participating in such projects. I'd rather see them succeed, even if I don't ride those trails, but blaming other rider segments because they can't get the wheels in motion to make it happen is just passing the buck.
    excuse my daftness, what are 'TTF's' ? Tits and Trail Features....honestly dont know

  160. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    the number of looks garnered by the bicycle was unsettling....
    They were just trying to see how far out of alignment the rear end was, or if it was broken like most every other Intense on the internet.

  161. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    They were just trying to see how far out of alignment the rear end was, or if it was broken like most every other Intense on the internet.
    bikes break butter cup... deal with it...
    broadcasting from
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  162. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    If you think it will improve your position, you are within your rights to attend the next stakeholders meeting and describe how a person who lives in another province may not be strictly adhering to the lettter of the land management authorities charter in the opinions written in posts on an internet discussion forum.

    I'm guessing that won't be given much weight in the proceedings, but you are welcome to give it a shot.
    wow! now that was derisive statement... in other words sour grapes
    broadcasting from
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    build trail!

  163. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclelicious View Post
    Good ride last night along the Humber River. It was surprisingly mosquito free but the deer flies were buzzing over the river,
    Spotted some unusual plants to keep an eye on because they appear to be an invasive species (I don't think it was hogweed)
    Cool pic Electric.
    don't think it was hogweed...
    broadcasting from
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    build trail!

  164. #164
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    ...
    Last edited by rckygrrl; 07-07-2011 at 10:12 PM. Reason: err...mechanical!

  165. #165
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    Beautiful bike!!! Looks just like one I saw disappear from Cycle Solutions recently. I've got an '09 6.6 and love it...and it ain't broke.

    [QUOTE=singlesprocket;8217901]great ride tonight, took out the ferrari for spin through south hill bolton. timing was great since there was a long freight train passing through town.

    here is a pic of the ferrari...



    the number of looks garnered by the bicycle was unsettling....
    Last edited by h.eye; 07-08-2011 at 02:32 PM.
    Always remember - You are unique, just like everyone else.

  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenAnimator View Post
    I could care less about Albion. Been cycling for over 25 years without going to it once and never regretted it.

    You could have the shittiest trail system in the world and people will still go to it because it's so close to Toronto and that's about all Albion has going for it is location.
    Just curious how you could make definitive conclusions about any trail you have never been to?

  167. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I couldn't agree more. There was also the guy that called me a Nazi for laughing at a Rob Ford satire video that electrik posted. I'm sure the list of people who don't like me on the internet is as long as my arm but I'm comfortable with that.
    Add me to your arm - I like Rob Ford - beats the crap out of Miller - IMO - just kidding about the arm.
    Always remember - You are unique, just like everyone else.

  168. #168
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    Just thought I would have a little cut & paste fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    great ride tonight, took out the ferrari for spin through south hill bolton. timing was great since there was a long freight train passing through town. here is a pic of the ferrari...the number of looks garnered by the bicycle was unsettling...
    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    They were just trying to see how far out of alignment the rear end was, or if it was broken like most every other Intense on the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Well aren't you just a ray of sunshine!
    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    Never confuse duty with dislike. It's rarely personal no matter what people write.
    I guess this is one of those rare occasions. Ok...I admit it...a few of the quotes are a little out of context.
    Always remember - You are unique, just like everyone else.

  169. #169
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    My favourite trails

    Trails I've been to and like:

    Albion
    Kelso (yes, I climbed that stupid ski hill that was part of last year's O-Cup)
    Hardwood Hills
    Mansfield
    Don Valley aka Crothers' Woods
    Ganaraska

    For Epic rides:
    Ingolf http://www.wildernesssupply.ca/ingolf-biking-trail
    Falcon Ridge

    Comment about stakeholders (yum!): Aren't we forgetting something? The LANDOWNERS of our trail systems? How a trail system ends up being is ultimately up to the them. e.g., Conservation Halton, for Kelso, doesn't allow mountain biking on the Escarpment Rim trail for "safety and environmental reasons" so no biking in there.

    And speaking of landowners, I'm starting a new thread about Ingolf and the loggers who are clear-cutting in the area, in case you haven't heard.

  170. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by FooFighter View Post
    Trails I've been to and like:

    Albion
    Kelso (yes, I climbed that stupid ski hill that was part of last year's O-Cup)
    Hardwood Hills
    Mansfield
    Don Valley aka Crothers' Woods
    Ganaraska

    For Epic rides:
    Ingolf http://www.wildernesssupply.ca/ingolf-biking-trail
    Falcon Ridge

    Comment about stakeholders (yum!): Aren't we forgetting something? The LANDOWNERS of our trail systems? How a trail system ends up being is ultimately up to the them. e.g., Conservation Halton, for Kelso, doesn't allow mountain biking on the Escarpment Rim trail for "safety and environmental reasons" so no biking in there.

    And speaking of landowners, I'm starting a new thread about Ingolf and the loggers who are clear-cutting in the area, in case you haven't heard.

    ahhh the niagra escarpment commission
    http://www.escarpment.org/home/index.php

    though the landowner still works on behalf of the people of Ontario
    broadcasting from
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    build trail!

  171. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhpunk~ View Post
    excuse my daftness, what are 'TTF's' ? Tits and Trail Features....honestly dont know
    Once the word "stunt" became a bit of a sore point, Technical Trail Feature became the code word for a feature (like a skinny, bridge, teeter, etc...), often man-made, that added a technical element to a trail. I don't know who coined it but IMBA uses it regularly.
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by rckygrrl View Post
    Just curious how you could make definitive conclusions about any trail you have never been to?
    I have been there, just didn't bother going for awhile as there was no need.

  173. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    though the landowner still works on behalf of the people of Ontario
    FWIW, Conservation Authorities are quasi-governmental agencies. Their primary role, above all else, is flood control. Each takes a different approach to what they do with the rest of their holdings, whether they focus on preservation, recreation or revenue generation (but usually some mix of all three).

    They aren't as directly responsible to voters or tax payers as many people think they are.
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  174. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Once the word "stunt" became a bit of a sore point, Technical Trail Feature became the code word for a feature (like a skinny, bridge, teeter, etc...), often man-made, that added a technical element to a trail. I don't know who coined it but IMBA uses it regularly.
    Obviously I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that although some trail users (not necessarily cyclists) object to TTFs on the basis of their "artificiality," many exist to conserve nature, for example a bridge over sensitive areas that would be disturbed by feet or tyres churning up the soil, or a log ride down a slope might protect soft soil from wear.

    Likewise, piling rocks or sticks next to a tree trunk to make it more easily rideable is a conservation measure, as cutting the tree is unsightly. Some rock gardens protect drainage lines across trails, reducing erosion. The documentary "Ladder Bridges" suggests this is the origin of the North Shore style of trail.

    IMHO, beginner MTBers should strive to reach a level where they can negotiate basic TTFs safely. A large population of riders comfortable with basic TTFs gives trail builders more flexibility..

  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by raganwald View Post
    IMHO, beginner MTBers should strive to reach a level where they can negotiate basic TTFs safely. A large population of riders comfortable with basic TTFs gives trail builders more flexibility..
    The best riding centres will include a skills area near the parking lot that has basic stuff like a teaching square, basic skinnes, etc.. and a small pump track that give riders the confidence they need to negotiate things they might encounter on the trail.

    Another great place to get comfy with that stuff, of course, is Joyride! You can practice there year-round!
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  176. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    +1 to all of the above. I doubt you'd find anyone who would disagree even among the so-called "mtbr guys", as it pertains to Albion Hills or any other trail system. The points of contention I see are;

    1) Suggesting that the character of existing trails should be or needs to be changed. That would be as much of a faux pas as removing TTFs from a trail that was purposely built from scratch for the purpose of having TTFs.

    2) Assuming that it's XC racers who want to have trails sanitized. There could be many reasons including but not limited to liability exposure, sustainability, the user/usage types that the landowner wants to attract, etc.

    3) Here's the big ticket item... wait for it... some bizarre notion that user types who aren't as interested in riding TTF heavy trails should be involved in securing access to or building such trails. To those who do lean in this direction, it's not other riders who are stopping them, it's that they are falling short in creating cohesiveness amongst their own user group, and failing to present a viable package to landowners which convinces them of the value of participating in such projects. . I'd rather see them succeed, even if I don't ride those trails, but blaming other rider segments because they can't get the wheels in motion to make it happen is just passing the buck.
    securing access to land for the sole purpose to errect TTF is the best solution IMO....

  177. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Exactly, so why permit one group to deny grandfathering to another. That is what went on at Albion when all those "ttfs" disappeared. That is almost a form of piracy since older users are forced to subsidize an entity like imba's vision with their favourite trails.
    Circling back to one of your other posts, your supposition that the features were removed by riders motivated to allow faster lap times doesn't seem to make much sense here, given that the features (that I remember) were an option to the side that didn't alter the basic line at all. There can be other reasons why a landowner and/or trailbuilder removes a feature.

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    If your idea of equilibrium is that there is a magical invisible hand of trail fairness that corrects the imbalances i'm disappointed at such populist laziness from somebody who espouses their love for a wide variety of riding styles.
    Not my idea of equilibrium. It seems the two of us must have a different definition of "fairness" in practical applications.

  178. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Circling back to one of your other posts, your supposition that the features were removed by riders motivated to allow faster lap times doesn't seem to make much sense here, given that the features (that I remember) were an option to the side that didn't alter the basic line at all. There can be other reasons why a landowner and/or trailbuilder removes a feature.



    Not my idea of equilibrium. It seems the two of us must have a different definition of "fairness" in practical applications.
    Do you mean the ones at Albion? Most of those were alternate lines but still got axed. Though they didn't have the unhappy "difficult" sign.

    Speaking for a local trail not worth mentioning, it's not a supposition, i've caught kitted out XC people doing the removing or moving off to the side of various features. You'll have to forgive me for allowing my biases to reflect my own reality because it seems to me their is a certain crowd of people doing the sanitizing. Often it's simply because a difficult section or feature interrupts their flow.

    I know landowners remove even small stunts, that is part of this culture of fear.

    For us equilibrium and fairness is not assured simply by following what is. Perhaps only in the natural sense would you ever be able to claim that, but we've moved beyond the animal kingdom - at least i'd like to think we have!

  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Speaking for a local trail not worth mentioning, it's not a supposition, i've caught kitted out XC people doing the removing or moving off to the side of various features. You'll have to forgive me for allowing my biases to reflect my own reality because it seems to me their is a certain crowd of people doing the sanitizing. Often it's simply because a difficult section or feature interrupts their flow.
    Removal or dumbing down of features is a very grey area as I'm sure I don't have to explain to you, especially if there isn't any actively particpating landowner to defer to with regard to guidelines for the character of the trail they want to establish or maintain. As far as I'm concerned anyone considering removal or alteration of a feature should be obligated to learn more about its origin before doing any rogue maintenance. By the same token anyone installing a feature on an existing trail that wasn't specifically built with the intent of hosting such features has several factors to consider before proceeding.

    As a personal comment, "flow" doesn't automatically equate to speed IMHO (I think trials riders crawling along have excellent flow) since it's all relative to how smoothly one navigates the given terrain. There can be as much flow and skilled use of momentum at 5km/h as at 30km/h. I can appreciate that my opinion in this matter doesn't necessarily resonate with others though.

  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    As a personal comment, "flow" doesn't automatically equate to speed IMHO (I think trials riders crawling along have excellent flow) since it's all relative to how smoothly one navigates the given terrain. There can be as much flow and skilled use of momentum at 5km/h as at 30km/h. I can appreciate that my opinion in this matter doesn't necessarily resonate with others though.
    To me, "flow" is only indirectly related to speed, flow refers to being able to traverse the terrain effortlessly. "Flowy" singletrack can be traversed with a minimum of braking and re-accelerating. Flowing over a log might mean bunny-hopping it. Flowing over hills might mean shifting in such a way that you never have to force the gear and you don't lose your momentum.

    Technical features certainly threaten flow, but to me learning to clear them is only part of the challenge. As you say quite rightly, "flowing" over and through technical sections is the goal.

    Ryan Leech espouses this exact philosophy in his "Manifesto" style of trials riding.

  181. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    FWIW, Conservation Authorities are quasi-governmental agencies. Their primary role, above all else, is flood control. Each takes a different approach to what they do with the rest of their holdings, whether they focus on preservation, recreation or revenue generation (but usually some mix of all three).

    They aren't as directly responsible to voters or tax payers as many people think they are.
    that's just one aspect... read more about it here...

    http://www.toronto.ca/budget2011/pdf...ion11_trca.pdf
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  182. #182
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    was shown a very cool area that has some great tech riding today. lot's of rocks and drops. we cut out a major amount of knocked over trees to clear the trails (purpose of the trip). oak, poplar, birch, pine, etc... almost every tree was a widow maker. you had to be carefull when the bell popped back up that you didn't get pinched. the winches came in real handy to pull down the hangers. lots of bore cuts just just to get through the trunk. here's a short vid of a small part of the cleared trail...

    <iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/26217755?title=0&amp;byline=0&amp;portrait=0" width="580" height="435" frameborder="0"></iframe>
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  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    that's just one aspect... read more about it here...
    What did I miss?

    For something I wrote off the top of my head, I think I pretty much nailed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRCA
    TRCA is a provincial/municipal partnership established in 1957 under the Conservation Authorities Act.

    TRCA acts in the community’s interest through advocating for and implementing watershed management programs that: maintain and improve the regions lands and waters; contribute to public safety from flooding and erosion; provide for the acquisition of conservation and hazard lands; and enhance the quality and variety of life in the community by using its lands for inter-regional outdoor recreation, heritage preservation and conservation education.
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  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    What did I miss?

    For something I wrote off the top of my head, I think I pretty much nailed it.
    Since I have not been ingrained with Conservation dogma of Ontario. From what I have read the purpose of the TRCA and their ilk is to prevent this from happening again,

    http://www.hurricanehazel.ca/ssi/about_community.shtml

    That being flood control.

  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    was shown a very cool area that has some great tech riding today. lot's of rocks and drops. we cut out a major amount of knocked over trees to clear the trails (purpose of the trip). oak, poplar, birch, pine, etc... almost every tree was a widow maker. you had to be carefull when the bell popped back up that you didn't get pinched. the winches came in real handy to pull down the hangers. lots of bore cuts just just to get through the trunk. here's a short vid of a small part of the cleared trail...
    Riveting piece of cinematography, that's some fine single-track there!
    However, since it has no biking content, I'm disappointed it doesn't contain at least a few shots of mushrooms, freshly made sausage or maybe even some footage of that fine four-by-four itself.

  186. #186
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    Get the kids out on the bike, simple...

    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    I would argue that new riders in particular need "watered down" trails to make the experience more accessible. All of us posting here have been riding for so long, we can easily lose sight of how "beginner" beginners really are, me included. A kid that just got his first 40lb Supercycle doesn't really need to be looking at grades higher than 5% to be engaged.

    That being said, I agree that there should be lots more free trails everywhere.
    Totally true...This video is a perfect example. My daughter and nephew had a blast going down these rollers with a little effort to get up. And just the idea of riding in the forest like they know I do all the time was exciting for them. No jumps or stunts required. To suggest there is no accessibility to ride is ridiculous. There are places, they are just ones that certain people(s) don't like.

    <iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/qxnE7rmd5x0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
    A bad day on the bike is better than a good day doing anything else...

    http://www.apexracephotography.com

  187. #187
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    Awesome, Neil! Two new trail stakeholders!

  188. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arek View Post
    Riveting piece of cinematography, that's some fine single-track there!
    However, since it has no biking content, I'm disappointed it doesn't contain at least a few shots of mushrooms, freshly made sausage or maybe even some footage of that fine four-by-four itself.
    actually the area has huge potential with an extensive trail network that you can ride an mtb on... and many technical features, rock drops, etc... as well as showing stewardship with the mnr and other stakeholders... but i guess you missed that...

    like i said before we need change...
    Last edited by singlesprocket; 07-11-2011 at 06:01 PM.
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  189. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    I agree, but it's not mine, it's just from the wikipedia entry. Anyways that is a large moth for around here. If that plant you spotted looks invasive it might be purple loosestrife? I'm not sure how exotic loosestrife looks to people nowadays.
    I don't think its loosestrife. It could be wild parsnip which can also cause skin irritation. The weeds haven't flowered yet but when they do it will help with identification

  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    What did I miss?

    For something I wrote off the top of my head, I think I pretty much nailed it.
    once again only one end of the spectrum.... lets review all the service objectives

    -healthy rivers and shorelines
    -regional biodiversty
    -sustainable communities
    -business excellence

    exclusion of a communities diversty can be construed as a violation of the vision for the living city policies. and it is poor managment practices...
    Last edited by singlesprocket; 07-13-2011 at 03:26 AM.
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  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    exclusion of a communities diversty can be construed as a violation of the vision for the living city policies. and it is poor managment practices...
    To be sure but when the TRCA talks about diversity, they're talking in broad brush strokes (i.e. Cyclists, equestrians, hikers, families, seniors, etc... as opposed to XC riders, free riders, trialists, DJers, etc...). It's just a matter of scale. Unless the people working there are riders themselves, they just lump MTBers into one homogeneous, and relatively small, user group.
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  192. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    To be sure but when the TRCA talks about diversity, they're talking in broad brush strokes
    now that sounds like doublespeak
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  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    now that sounds like doublespeak
    Not at all. For instance, at Christie Lake the different user groups I have to *ahem* cooperate with (among many) include trail runners, dog walkers, hikers, equestrians, skiers, duck hunters, a retriever club, canoeists, swimmers, antiquers, concert goers... it goes on and on. Cyclists are just a tiny blip on the radar there.
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  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Not at all. For instance, at Christie Lake the different user groups I have to *ahem* cooperate with (among many) include trail runners, dog walkers, hikers, equestrians, skiers, duck hunters, a retriever club, canoeists, swimmers, antiquers, concert goers... it goes on and on. Cyclists are just a tiny blip on the radar there.
    that's not the trca... anyway the size of ones "blip" does not devalue ones place in the hierarchy... though in the past that was the way to do things (and in some places still is). luckly there is a change in the wind and we move forward to build a stronger community with more stewardship and intercooperation.
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  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    that's not the trca... anyway the size of ones "blip" does not devalue ones place in the hierarchy... though in the past that was the way to do things (and in some places still is). luckly there is a change in the wind and we move forward to build a stronger community with more stewardship and intercooperation.
    You're the one that brought up the TRCA; I was talking about Conservation Authorities in general but that's beside the point.

    Again, I agree with you (this must be like some kind of record or something - I've agreed with you for like 3 or 4 posts in a row now... ). Change is in the wind and Christie Lake is a prime example of a CA working with a "small blip" to give us a seat at the table.
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  196. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    You're the one that brought up the TRCA; I was talking about Conservation Authorities in general but that's beside the point.

    Again, I agree with you (this must be like some kind of record or something - I've agreed with you for like 3 or 4 posts in a row now... ). Change is in the wind and Christie Lake is a prime example of a CA working with a "small blip" to give us a seat at the table.
    actually i brought up the

    niagra escarpment commission
    http://www.escarpment.org/home/index.php
    (which they state works on behalf of the people)

    many ca's are or will be following the living city model which has had a fairly good success with projects such as this and others http://www.partnersinprojectgreen.com/
    the success of christie lake well take some time... and hopefully it will be sustainable in the communities future growth. though the trend of the reducing number of mtber's has to be addressed.
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  197. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    actually i brought up the

    niagra escarpment commission
    http://www.escarpment.org/home/index.php
    (which they state works on behalf of the people)
    Well, now I am going to have to disagree with you but only for the sake of clarity.

    You brought up the TRCA here:
    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    that's just one aspect... read more about it here...

    http://www.toronto.ca/budget2011/pdf...ion11_trca.pdf
    But mentioned the NEC here in reference to the landowner at Kelso, the HRCA:
    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    ahhh the niagra escarpment commission
    http://www.escarpment.org/home/index.php

    though the landowner still works on behalf of the people of Ontario
    Now we're all straight.
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  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster View Post
    Well, now I am going to have to disagree with you but only for the sake of clarity.

    You brought up the TRCA here:


    But mentioned the NEC here in reference to the landowner at Kelso, the HRCA:


    Now we're all straight.
    far from it... i suggest you read this also

    http://www.escarpment.org/applications/index.php

    thus the scope and reach of the commision is understood with regards to ca's,
    the commision can nix projects that follow under it's mandate. site alterment/trail building can be such a case.

    the area's covered by the commision are huge:
    Dufferin County
    Region of Halton
    Region of Peel
    Region of Niagara
    City of Hamilton
    Bruce County
    Grey County
    Simcoe County

    policies are here
    http://www.escarpment.org/commission...s/index.php#13
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  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    far from it... i suggest you read this also

    http://www.escarpment.org/applications/index.php
    You don't need to tell me about the NEC. I'm surprised I can mow my lawn with having to make an application.

    Interestingly, we have the NEC to thank for having trails in Christie Lake. The HCA had originally designated the south shore land we're using for a camp ground but the NEC nixed it just after they put in all the service roads.
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  200. #200
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    The NEC can go pound salt.

    Forcing local residents that have lived and farmed the land for numerous generations to put in applications to do little things like paint their barn isn't winning them any friends.

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