Tell me about your honey holes...(cool trails)- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Tell me about your honey holes...(cool trails)

    Hello there gang,

    I was at a bike shop yesterday and met these two kids who are mostly into the bmx thing. However, they started talking about trails I and probablymost other people never even heard of. This encouraged me to continue my trail list on my msn community website.
    If any of you have a sweet trail you would like to share, email it to me at [email protected]

    I am trying to put together the most extensive list ever seen of Ontario mountain bike trails. Your help would really be great.

    Here is the site if you want to see want I have so far.

    http://groups.msn.com/PEDALOCTANE

  2. #2
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    I got one

    One of my regular trails is probably the best riding in ontario. After it has time to dry up I will take you if you like.

  3. #3
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    Right next to the Quebec border

    http://www.canadatrails.ca/mtb/on/charlottenburgh.html

    Most excellent riding and the guys workign the trails here are doing a bang-up job but I would remember that the area is small and most of the trails can be riden in an hour or so (if you're fast). Well worth the trip (if it's a short trip) ...

  4. #4
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    Wink What a rude thread title

    Hey guys I have a list of trails and maps that I am building on my website The Ride and if any of you would like to add to the list, I would be willing to post them. Drop me an email here... [email protected]

    We have news and activities and a bunch of other things going on also.
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  5. #5
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    This Year

    Hey Steel This year we have to push Joe and Jovie to finish the trail. may bee we will have to start out sooner and bring lunch. send me an e-mail when you want to go back to the trail you know the one I meen.

  6. #6
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    Next time you are in the shop tell him he needs a GT i-Drive 5.0
    Oh and tell him he needs to ride more! I think he stopped listening to me
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  7. #7

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    Oro Medonte is a good FREE place to go ride. It is up by Hardwood Hills and closely resembles Copeland Forest for technical difficulty and soil type. There used to be a lot of info including trail maps of www.shawscatering.com. It doesn't seem to be there anymore.

  8. #8
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    I ride the trails in Turkey Point and Spooky Hollow areas regularly, there is great singletrack, some fireroads, some ultra-technical sections, high-speed pine forest riding, backcountry bush whacking, and potential for some serious mileage (I've ridden 40km here in one day, didnt cross the same trail twice). Its a great place to ride...and no one but a handfull of locals know about it. Also, the Pines in Woodstock is a sweet place to ride, as is Hardy Road in Brantford.

  9. #9
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    Something to consider

    I am just going to make a comment here for everyone to mull over. I am an avid rider and I not only enjoy my local trails but I also enjoy exploring new trails and new terrain. I have spent a lot of time behind the computer searching for more and more trails in and around Ontario. During my quest I have learned that there are a lot of trails out there that people are not aware of because the original trail builder does not want anyone to know about them. The primary reason being that the trails are built on public land and, although the land managers are aware of their existence, they do not condone their construction, use or maintenance. The land managers have commented that if they are not aware of the trails then they can plead ignorance in the event that a liability issue comes up and they are sued. Of course, they have liability insurance for the whole forest but it is general liability and does not address certain risky activities that take place in the forest. I am sure that if the insurer heard that these forests were supporting vast networks of MTB trails they would look at things a little differently and either cancel the policy or jack up the premiums. What the trail builder also learned was that if it could be proven that he constructed and supported the trails, then he could be held as a liable party in any lawsuit. The land manager has indicated to the trail builder that he should form an organization, pay fees to the land manager and show proof of $5 million in liability before the trails would be condoned. The trail builder is thinking that he does not want to have to go through the grief of fighting a legal battle regardless if it is covered by insurance or not. The land mangers have also said that due to the exposure the trails are getting, as of late, the issue will soon come to a head and they will be forced to close the trails. The trail builder’s reaction to this is that he will no longer support the trails and he makes every effort to curb the flow of riders to these trails for fear that, with the increase of traffic, the likelihood of a lawsuit and eventual closure will occur and the local users will lose out.

    So when you are spreading the word about free trail systems on public land please bear in mind that someone is paying the price and it is not really free. We, as taxpayers, will also have to absorb the cost of increased insurance premiums and lawsuits. Please also bear in mind that when you mention “a new trail that everyone needs to know about” you are possibly leading to the trail’s demise.

    How do I get around this when I want to explore a new trail?…I try and touch base with the locals to get a sense around the local issues and to get a guided tour so as not to step on anyone’s toes. Plus, I take a vow of secrecy and say I will not divulge the trail network to anyone for fear I will be banished myself. I have heard of some BC trail builders that blindfold newcomers when taking them to their trailhead.

  10. #10
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    I offer a solution...

    The problem here is a complete lack of personal responsibility.

    If everyone took their own safety as their responsibility, there would be no need for lawsuits, and therefore no worry about insurance.
    We are MTBers and as such, by the very nature of throwing a leg over a bike, are placing ourselves in harms way. We will all be at risk (at least once) on every trail ride. Should we feel stupid enough to try and ride onto a stunt, man-made obstacle or section of "natural trail" without 1st inspecting it to deem it's viability and stability, then we deserve the consequences. As a tribe of risk-takers we should admit when we are wrong, when we crash and when we exceed our talent levels.
    If relatives had even an inkling as to the nature of the sport, then they too should stand behind our decisions and if we should (heaven forbid) die, they should mourn, weep and lay our souls to rest WITHOUT trying for a cash-grab.

    Shame on society for advocating that personal responsibility belongs to anyone other than the individual in question.

    I for one will post trails that are open for trail use.
    I will never post illegal trails on the website.
    I will always look for secret gems and bring them to light, provided they do not clash with the previous points.

    There is too much individualism in MTBing, we need to stand united as a force to make sure there are trails to ride in 2, 5, 10 years time. There are too many trail closures in Ontario already.

    Support IMBA, follow the rules of the trail, and take responsibility for yourself.
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  11. #11
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    well said...

    I stand united...even if I do know of some trails that have been there for..well ever since I lived in Canada...never seen them mentioned on here and Im not telling!! But someoene else knows these trails cause last summer the free ride stuff being built is huge, which I do not like because it was such a visually pleasing natural trail before all these ramps and stuff were built

    Cheers...

  12. #12
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    SSteel, when you find a secret gem of a trail, do you ask yourself, Why are they a secret? Are they open now because their traffic is limited? Can they support new traffic? Who built them? How can I help? Are they ready to be posted for the world to see?

    It makes me mad as hell when people place such effort into discovery and promotion without one word toward maintenance and development. A trail system located close to a major city could change overnight with a posting on the web. Will the poster be dealing with the problems? I think the locals will be forced into making the new reality work. Is that fair?
    Do you think trail posting should have a tough set of standards to help us all with land access issuess?

  13. #13
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    PedalOctane do you feel any sense of responsibility to make sure that when someone posts a sweet trail to share on your site it is suitable for the general public?

    So as not to undermine MTB land access, What criteria do you use to evaluate your postings on hopefully the most extensive list ever seen of Ontario Mountain bike trails?

  14. #14
    I already rode that
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    Thats like the Don. It wasnt that busy as it is now till someone posted it on the web, getting featured in a MTB mag didnt help either... Of course the Don wasnt really much a secret to begin with anyways

    My friend started to build a trail on his property and his neighbours ( with their permission!) his concern was mainly about it getting "worn" in or such as without a few riders riding it it'll just get overgrown faster. Another issue came up of about building stunts along it. When I say that I mean more like natural obstacles not 6' drops etc... and how ppl that are lazy or dont have the skill to ride over a simple log will more then likely ride around it then get off the bike to walk over it. I dont like seeing that happen but ppl are lazy like that.

  15. #15

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    I think part of the fun of MTB is stumbling upon a trail that you never new existed. 10 + years ago I was riding durham forest and I decided to wander off a little bit. I ended up in the Glen Major / Walker woods forest. I was giddy as a little school girl. At that time it was not flooded with mountain bikers ( the occasional hiker thats about it). It was like my own little forest I loved it! But over the years, that place has been hacked to bits and sadly many sections have been closed off due to angry land owners seeing the abuse of the woods (silly stunts & people creating new trails) .

    So posting exact directions to trails I am against.

    However hinting to trails I am all for.

    Simply knowing that there is a hiden bit of single track out there makes this sport such a blast.

  16. #16
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    Good morning Pedal Octane, i see you have read the questions, I llook forward to your answers.

    While you are at it, here is another one.

    You say that the Dufferin Forest is your favorite ride.
    Why no info on your site about it?

  17. #17
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    Listed Trails

    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    PedalOctane do you feel any sense of responsibility to make sure that when someone posts a sweet trail to share on your site it is suitable for the general public?

    So as not to undermine MTB land access, What criteria do you use to evaluate your postings on hopefully the most extensive list ever seen of Ontario Mountain bike trails?

    Phat Tyred,

    Let me first just say that of course I feel a sense of responsibility. However, I cannot control what information people will provide (is noted on the trail page). I can only trust the word of the rider submitting the trail. I only wish I had all the legal information on every trail, but that is impossible! Lets be honest here, every rider must be responsible for his/her actions within our sport.
    Now if their is a trail system on my site that is not kosher, please drop me a respectful email and I will follow up on your request! If I could have a legimate list, that would be ideal.


    **NOTE**

    Right now, I am in conversations with the land authorities of Thackeray Park located in Toronto (North End). This park was used in the 1997 Volkswagon Trek championship race. However after that, no further care was given to the trail system that was built for the race and now looks deserted as mostly all of the trails have been weeded over and in some cases impossible to ride through. This is very sad! This trail system has so much potential and the City should get off their fat asses and maintain it with the respect it deserves! I am trying to get IMBA to help out in this cause. My hope is that IMBA will be granted the rights for the trail maitenance here. Last year IMBA was given authority over the Don River Trail system and did a bang up job of which they deserve a great applause!
    However, The Don was not in that bad of shape as Thackeray Park. If any of you would like to help out in this cause please email me.

    Thanks for all your input gang!

    Cheers

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    SSteel, when you find a secret gem of a trail, do you ask yourself, Why are they a secret? Are they open now because their traffic is limited? Can they support new traffic? Who built them? How can I help? Are they ready to be posted for the world to see?

    It makes me mad as hell when people place such effort into discovery and promotion without one word toward maintenance and development. A trail system located close to a major city could change overnight with a posting on the web. Will the poster be dealing with the problems? I think the locals will be forced into making the new reality work. Is that fair?
    Do you think trail posting should have a tough set of standards to help us all with land access issuess?
    I do ask myself those questions. Thanks for asking.

    I don't see how a tough set of standards could even be developed, let alone enforced...

    Frankly I don't post little trails, or ones that look like they were hacked illegally. I also don't post trails that have no place to park or are on questionable land without at least a warning, or notice of access "questions". I also won't post a trail until I ride it myself; nothing beats 1st hand experience. I call my approach sensibility.

    Further, I am trying to become an IMBA associated site (I am a member), but it is difficult since I am non-profit. I have not been able to hit one of their trail maintenance days due to work schedules, so it can be difficult to sway some of The Ride faithful to help, esp if I'm not there.

    Now, swing the thinking around... people should accept responsibility for their actions. If you build a trail, they will come. There are abnormal amounts of MTBers in the Golden Horseshoe, nothing is kept a secret for long. If you decide to build a trail, perhaps you should accept the responsibility to build it right and in a sustainable way. Anything else is irresponsible.
    Last edited by SSteel; 03-16-2005 at 08:31 AM.
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  19. #19
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    I really miss the Uxbridge Cycling Clubs website because they used to post trail maint. days at Durham and other areas and now I'm not exaclty sure where to find this information. It would be great if your site theride.ca would include these dates there but it seems like your site relies on people submitting these events instead of you pulling them from people. I understand you're busy and that site is not your full time job so this is not a criticism just a statement of fact.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braids
    I really miss the Uxbridge Cycling Clubs website because they used to post trail maint. days at Durham and other areas and now I'm not exaclty sure where to find this information. It would be great if your site theride.ca would include these dates there but it seems like your site relies on people submitting these events instead of you pulling them from people. I understand you're busy and that site is not your full time job so this is not a criticism just a statement of fact.

    I hope to correct this shortfall, but for now you are right. I would be happy to post trail maintenance days for any trail any area, just send me the info or tell me where I can find it!
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  21. #21
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    SSteel people should accept responsibility for their actions.
    Pedal Octane lets be honest here every rider must be responsible for his or her own actions within our sport.

    Both of your trail seekers have an illegal trail system on your site.
    Copeland Forest Trail begins on the Heights of Horseshoe side of the road.
    The trails to which you refer are old O Cup Trails.
    They are on private property. They are only insured for events. Their use at any other time of the year has not been granted. Riding these trails is illegal.

    Please remove Copeland Forest from your Public List.
    Anything else is irresponsible.
    This is reality.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    SSteel people should accept responsibility for their actions.
    Pedal Octane lets be honest here every rider must be responsible for his or her own actions within our sport.

    Both of your trail seekers have an illegal trail system on your site.
    Copeland Forest Trail begins on the Heights of Horseshoe side of the road.
    The trails to which you refer are old O Cup Trails.
    They are on private property. They are only insured for events. Their use at any other time of the year has not been granted. Riding these trails is illegal.

    Please remove Copeland Forest from your Public List.
    Anything else is irresponsible.
    This is reality.
    State your source.

    I have been there and I have not seen any signs stating the trails are closed. Also, Rider Mel's Ontario hand book show both Pineridge Lodge and Heights of Horseshoe as legal places to ride.
    Further, the trails to which I am referring are accessed by the Heights and are not actually the ski hill/resort, though it may indeed be the same owners. I would suspect that they turn a blind eye to the riding because it gives them some exposure and riders will remember the trails come DH race season and ski season (read: $). Maybe they are enthusiasts; maybe they don't care.

    The Agreement Forest attached to Hilton Falls is private land also, it is not insured for trail use except during events, and yet remains open to the public all year. Riding is permitted, not by degree but by absence of exclusion. Only hunting and ATVs are not permitted, and there are many clear signs denoting this; all trail users abide by the rules and the land remains open.

    Thanks for stopping by and looking at my site.
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  23. #23
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    SSteel

    My Sources Heights of Horseshoe and Pine Ridge Private Ski Club.
    I am talking to you, not rider Mel.

    Blind eye, exposure, (read$), maybe they don't care
    Is anyone else out there a little concerned about this attitude.

    Hey SSteel, for the love of MTB access, private is still private even if it does not say No Trespassing. But hey what the hell post it let the chips fall where they may, not in my backyard bud.

  24. #24
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    So are you pissed that they are exposing a trail system you use, that you know is illegal, and you are worried that this exposure will increase usage and bring about a full closure which then will remove a trail system that is in your backyard??

    Just curious???

    Rich
    "The meek shall inherit the earth"

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    I am pissed that stupid people effect our sport in a bad way. The two people in question could tell as many people as they like I do not care, But when they put it up for the world to see and yet do not have all the facts, very dumb.

    Horshoe Valley Resort 705.835.2790
    Pine Ridge Ski Club 705.835.2014

    Now remember, tell them you have no Ins., no organization, no plans.
    All you have is alot of people and a crap thought process.
    Who would not want that.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    I am pissed that stupid people effect our sport in a bad way. The two people in question could tell as many people as they like I do not care, But when they put it up for the world to see and yet do not have all the facts, very dumb.

    Horshoe Valley Resort 705.835.2790
    Pine Ridge Ski Club 705.835.2014

    Now remember, tell them you have no Ins., no organization, no plans.
    All you have is alot of people and a crap thought process.
    Who would not want that.
    There is another trail near those areas that I hope is not affected. Though theride's directions point to Horseshoe Valley are there is another trail system in that area I hope is not affected. I'm going to be bummed to find out they are not legal trails.

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    The only Legal Mountain Bike singletrack riding in this area is Hardwood Hills. One of the best places to ride in all of Ontario, well worth the money and I highly recommed it to anyone in the area for ride.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    The only Legal Mountain Bike singletrack riding in this area is Hardwood Hills. One of the best places to ride in all of Ontario, well worth the money and I highly recommed it to anyone in the area for ride.
    A lot of people are riding the trails I'm talking about then. Everytime I've gone there I've seen about five or six other vehicles there in the one parking lot. There sure are a lot of trails for an illegal area too. I'm not talking just one trail, I'm talking a well laid out area of trails that appears to be maintained. The area is a cross between Mansfield but a little more technical.

    I'm sorry but Hardwood Hills is not that good and with the smell from the dump it's definitely not worth it.

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    Does the thought of the trails being closed due to too much attention and not enough organization concern you?

    Hardwood rocks plain and simple, the smell is almost gone because the 2year transfer of the old dump site to a new plastic lined one is almost done. The small amount of smell is really no big deal.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    I am pissed that stupid people effect our sport in a bad way. The two people in question could tell as many people as they like I do not care, But when they put it up for the world to see and yet do not have all the facts, very dumb.

    Horshoe Valley Resort 705.835.2790
    Pine Ridge Ski Club 705.835.2014

    Now remember, tell them you have no Ins., no organization, no plans.
    All you have is alot of people and a crap thought process.
    Who would not want that.
    Speaking of crap thought processes and not having all the facts...

    I contacted the Heights of Horseshoe and spoke to Rob Rattray (ext. 1393). The land in question, Copeland Forest is GOVERNMENT PROPERTY. Rob said, and I quote directly " ...anyone can access those trails and use them, they are government property. We really have nothing to do with it."

    Oddly enough, that is exactly what I was told by the local riders who took me there in the 1st place. That, along with the lack of any signs indicating that it was private property or closed trails, is what prompted me to post it in the 1st place.

    Oh... my point about Rider Mel was that he HAS to verify access issues for reason of liability because he printed and sold the book.

    So, before you start spouting off and trashing people, maybe YOU should get all the facts; it is quite obvious to anyone reading this thread that you have some sort of chip on your shoulder.

    Anyway, I am done with your hostile attitude. Thanks so much for coming out. Buh-bye.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    Does the thought of the trails being closed due to too much attention and not enough organization concern you?

    Hardwood rocks plain and simple, the smell is almost gone because the 2year transfer of the old dump site to a new plastic lined one is almost done. The small amount of smell is really no big deal.
    I wish there was better signage at forest areas so you know who to conact about stuff like this and after a quick check on the 'net it doesn't appear like the area I'm talking about is affected by your concerns.

    It's funny, I went to the Horshevalley website and though they don't list mountain biking as an activity YET they have pictures of people mountain biking. I guess were good enough for marketing but not good enough to use their property.

  32. #32
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    Copeland Forest

    SSTEEL,

    You are very correct! Infact, Copeland forest is crown property and any one can use it!

    I also did some digging, I contacted Horseshoe and Pineridge Ski club and both parties told me the very same thing!!

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    Thanks you so much guys. I owe you alot.
    So let me get this straight.
    Rob Rattray has read the Copeland Post and it is O kay to ride the trails at the Heights of Horseshoe and Pine Ridge and to park on Horseshoe Valley Resort to do so, all for FREE.

    That is so cool.

    Make sure you did ask him that whole question.

    If all is cool then hold on to your baggy shorts, the stuff on the ski hills is out of this world.
    The forest in behind the ski hills toward Barrie is kick ass. I will be happy to post some cool stuff about the Heights if he does not mind, let me know.

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    O kay "Spam Jam" listen up because you two have cost me enough free time already.

    All my postings are true, this is the real deal. If anyone wants to organize a public trail system let me know, i have lots of info on lots of work.

    I just got off the phone fron Rob and this is what he says on your trail post.

    Horseshoe resort does not allow the use of their property or any on your post to be used for free to the public. He says we will put berriers in place if access is abused.
    He says remove your trail postings now or he will take legal action.
    Is that clear enough for you two.
    Remove it.
    Now
    Sorry to all that had to watch the onion get peeled, just be glad you were not so near that your eyes are watering.
    Becareful to maintain your sweet trails.

  35. #35

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    Legal trails

    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    I am pissed that stupid people effect our sport in a bad way. The two people in question could tell as many people as they like I do not care, But when they put it up for the world to see and yet do not have all the facts, very dumb.

    Horshoe Valley Resort 705.835.2790
    Pine Ridge Ski Club 705.835.2014

    Now remember, tell them you have no Ins., no organization, no plans.
    All you have is alot of people and a crap thought process.
    Who would not want that.

    It is interesting to see that there is so little fact involved in these discussions.

    First lets seperate privately owned land from public. Private property can be controlled by the owner. The owner is reponsible and liable for the property. It is covered by the Occupiers Liability Act. The owner of private property may choose to allow access or may deny it. Trails on public land ( and there are many in the horseshoe valley area ) are not illegal because they are not posted, maintained or adjacent property owners dislike them.

    Crown and Municipal lands would have legislation or By-laws respecting use of lands. An example of this would be "No Mortorized Vehicles Permitted" to date I know of no legislation or By-laws that restrict the puplic use of trails in the Copeland. In fact unless the province has enacted new legislation, you can ride anywhere in the Copeland. To my knowledge there is no such legislation in the works.

    The Province may lease out trails to a corporation or group at which time a fee for service and maintenance of the trails may be put in place. However the group or corporation would the be liable for the trails.For instance ski clubs like Pine Ridge do not allow access to their hills for a number of reasons. However general public use the Pine Ridge parking lot that is adjacent to the Copeland to gain access to public trails.

    The bottom line. Obscure legislation could potentialy be in place. however if it is not than ride. Legislation could be put in place but not without years of public forums and debate.

    It could come from a risk management or an environmental perspective, again that would take years. The main reason that there are so few fee for service x-country and mountain bike facilities in the province is that you can go and do it for free in so many places. Eg. Parks and Crownland.

    If you require information about skiing and riding on private land like ski areas by all means call them. However do not bring them into your conversations to promote a position that they do not have or in fact should have regarding public use of public lands. They can only control their land. They may have good input into current environmental practices for trail mainenance and risk management to share.


    Remember.....No one can enforce good judgement or legislate common sense.

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    so much was said, things were missed.

    Bottom line the Copeland posts are going to be removed or legal action will take place.

    The post is for private property.
    Now you just mentioned another one.

    Why don't you post it for the public to veiw and then i will be able to teach you a few things.

    For now back of the line.
    These two have some work to do and I will make them do it.

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    Get it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    so much was said, things were missed.

    Bottom line the Copeland posts are going to be removed or legal action will take place.

    The post is for private property.
    Now you just mentioned another one.

    Why don't you post it for the public to veiw and then i will be able to teach you a few things.

    For now back of the line.
    These two have some work to do and I will make them do it.
    The Facts.

    If you are talking about private property then you are not talking about the Copeland Bush. If these trails are on private property than the owners are the only people who can restrict access. Owners of property that are adjacent to the public lands can restrict access to only their property and impede access to public land.

    I have just spoken to the area manager of Pine Ridge. For insurance reasons Pine Ridge must restrict access to it trails, However the Copeland Forrest is adjacent to their parking lot. You can park in their lot and gain access to miles of trails on public land. They do not mind the use of their parking lot for this in the summer and many x-country skiiers and snow shoe enthusiasts are taking advantage of the community spirit of Pine Ridge.

    If the post shows any trails on private property than the deeded owner is the only person who will be in a position to take action. In that case it will be only for the portion that is on their property. I am sure those that posted the trail guide will take action at that time.

    Go to the oro-medonte township office and get a map. It will clearly show the public lands as well as lot numbers of all private lands. I suggest all look at it and compare before going further. For that matter those trails may even be on township detail maps. If phat and tired owns the land then phat can take action.

    Oh and phat change therapists your anger managment program is not cutting it.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    so much was said, things were missed.

    Bottom line the Copeland posts are going to be removed or legal action will take place.

    The post is for private property.
    Now you just mentioned another one.

    Why don't you post it for the public to veiw and then i will be able to teach you a few things.

    For now back of the line.
    These two have some work to do and I will make them do it.
    Copeland Forest is crown land and I will retain a trail information post. I will however change the access information when I get home from work, and can access the server (sometime around 8pm EST).
    I was under the impression that my info was a legit trailhead when it was put on the web but as soon as I spoke to Rob, I knew that we had crossed private land to get to Copeland. That was a mistake on both my part and the guide we had that day.
    I had planned on changing the info tonight anyway, but threatening legal action and calling to acerbate the situation is pretty low. “Honey catches more flies than vinegar.”

    And stop PM'ing me or I will report you to the moderators.
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  39. #39

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    Phat Tyred, you sir, are a moron of unmeasurable proportions!

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    I am on you two plugs like flies on ****.

    I am looking forward to round two.

    You don't know the half of it.

    I would rather light a stick of dynomite, then try to steer a sinking ship.

    All aboard.

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    Boy…let’s try and put a lid on this can of worms!

    I believe the point is being missed here. I believe all Phat Tyred is trying to say is; “do your homework before posting trails on the web” and he asks some serious questions that need to be considered before doing so.

    Let me describe a scenario that occurred last year while riding one of my local trails. A group of us encountered three riders who flagged us down on the trail. They had set out on a ride through a very difficult trail system that is not only demanding to ride but is also not clearly signed. They had read about this trail on a website and felt that they needed to explore it. They were obviously newbies but riding stellar rigs. They asked us if we had seen a lone female during our ride, which we did not. They then proceeded to tell us that they lost her and have been riding around trying to find her. Bear in mind that it is approaching dusk, it’s cold out and they had been out on the trail for most of the day…they were beat and worried. Knowing the trails, we scoured them in hope that we could find this lady but it was getting dark. The police needed to be contacted and a search and rescue team dispatched. Fortunately, she was found by a canine unit. She was scared out of her mind and suffering from mild hypothermia. The police started asking some serious questions about why they went on these trails and they indicated that they followed the directions on a website and since they had $3000 bikes they felt they could ride them even though the website alluded to the fact that they were difficult trails and they could get lost.

    The land manager is aware of the fact that there is a network of trails through this land and they have, over the years, been “quietly condoning” the use of the trails. The difficulty here is that their insurance only covers liability for the trails that they support, which are, primarily, double track fire roads. Cycling is encouraged on these roads. Over the years however, single track trails have been built off of these roads and have combined to make a vast network of trails that are not really supported or condoned by the land manager but, knowing that it hosted only a few local riders, they were not really stepping in. So, in essence, they are neither legal nor illegal, at this point. I will respectfully submit that a majority of the trails posted on various websites fall into this category

    Now imagine if this lady was not found and was seriously hurt and as a result of her injury she was unable to work at her day job. Due to her injury she has to rely on some kind of disability plan that is offered by her employer. The disability pension is paid by a private insurer and although she does not want to sue anyone, it is out of her hands because she signed over her rights to the insurer. The insurer is obligated to seek any other available income for this lady and knowing that her injury occurred on public land, they could go after the land manager to recoup some of their payout to this lady. So, although she is taking responsibility for her actions and recognizes that she was in over her head, she cannot do anything about what her insurer does or she gets faced with being cut off. So the land manager gets sued and the logical response is to close the single track trails.

    As far a Copeland Forest is concerned…it is not really government land. It was once a large farm that was deeded to the “people” and is now a conservation area that is managed by the Oro-Medonte Lions Club in care of the Ministry of Natural Resources. Yes, you can bike in there but only on the sanctioned trails, which do not include the singletrack trails…although, they are well aware of them. The MNR as well as the County of Simcoe have been very vocal, as of late, stating that with the increased attention trails in their forests are getting, the issue of liability will soon need to be addressed. Hardword Hills recently entered into an agreement with the County of Simcoe to use 200 acres of the County’s land for mountain biking. They had to pay fees to the County and show proof of $5 million in liability insurance. The same is now being asked of all the other trail systems that go through their lands.

    I think Phat Tyred, as passionate as he is, is trying to tell you that exposing these trails to the general public (read: newbies) will cause the liability issue to come up sooner than later and lead to closures. An argument can be made that by putting poorly thought out links to trails on websites you are actually doing MTB’ers a disservice. This website alone references trails that are totally illegal, often abandoned and years outdated. Joe Public may not be aware of the current issues or conditions putting himself and all MTB’er at risk.

    I thinking riding a new trail system is an awesome experience so I suggest that instead of posting a trail on your sites…post a name of a contact person in that area.

  42. #42
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    Your nuts buddy

    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    I am on you two plugs like flies on ****.

    I am looking forward to round two.

    You don't know the half of it.

    I would rather light a stick of dynomite, then try to steer a sinking ship.

    All aboard.
    You have done ten times more damage to rider property manager relations with all your talk about law suits and calling resort managers and *****ing than 100 postings on a 100 web sites could ever do. I tryed hard to see it your way but now you just look like a jack ass it seems to me that you have a proplem with anybody but you ridding these trails.

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    Johhny how many land managers do you have relations with?

    Me well i know and have a great relationship with 5 of the top people in charge of alot of Public land in and around horseshoe.

    If you would like to see signs, insurance, Legal or illegal things spelled out, just put up a new posting for Copeland.

  44. #44
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    So funny that everyone is bent outta shape about posting trails on the web on a site that started out as a place to post trails and product reviews.

    By the way, I expect that Horseshoe/Heights of Horseshoe will be sueing MTBR as they have had the same location and directions (since 2002) as I had posted on my humble site (which is now corrected).
    this space left intentionally blank

  45. #45
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    I never posted anything

    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    Johhny how many land managers do you have relations with?

    Me well i know and have a great relationship with 5 of the top people in charge of alot of Public land in and around horseshoe.

    If you would like to see signs, insurance, Legal or illegal things spelled out, just put up a new posting for Copeland.
    I took a group of friends for a good ride one day and everyone had a blast. I think everyone needs cool down a bit my self included. One of my friends has been bashed on this thead and I have respounded in an inapropriate manner my self. we all have the same goal here good rides and good times let not forget we are on the same team. Phat Tyred I apologize for my last post I lashed out beacuse some I know is beeing bashed and I didn't like it.

  46. #46
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    I guess I'm out

    Acording to a personal message I just recived everyone in Simco county hates me and I'm out of the loop. I was never in the loop to begin with I ride most of the time by my self and always find trails for my self. If taking a few guys on a ride and having some fun is some sort of crime I guess I'm guilty but I won't miss getting to ride with these people who have it out for me because I have never met them or rode with them anyway. The people I took for that ride have road there maybee twice thats hardly causing excesive traffic. Where I grew up we always encourged new riders to ride the local trails it was almost like showing off a new bike or car we were proud of . I have never felt that kind welcoming feeling from the local mtb comunity since I moved to this area 10 years ago. Posting of trails on web sites may or may not be good for the futre of that trail but the hostility I am seeing here is not good for mountain biking in any way. I have already apologized for some hostile coments I made earlier and I truly hope this thread will just die off it is not doing anyone any good. Phat Tyred I still hope to one day see you out on the trails that is off course if you dont "put a bullet in them" as you said, and anyone else who is not in the "in crowd" and just wants to ride and have a good time you know where to find me.

    Thanks JHB

  47. #47
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    Now I think I figured out why I went and bought a road bike....

    BTW no matter what Phat is trying to say he is still being a big old dick about it, plain and simple....Coming across as a heavy is never a good thing...I personally think this all comes down to a bunch of people being worried about losing access to the trails in their backyard because of overuse by outsiders...Not a very good attitude really...We should all be working together to open access up and not fighting to keep things quiet in the local scene...Do you not realize that the only way for this sport to continue to grow is to increase the access to trail, not to limit access...

    Rich
    "The meek shall inherit the earth"

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    For all you mummas boys out there who thought I was a little rough with my typing, just be glad of one thing.

    LUCKY YOU DON'T SURF

  49. #49

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    rbart4506

    [QUOTE=rbart4506]Now I think I figured out why I went and bought a road bike....

    BTW no matter what Phat is trying to say he is still being a big old dick about it, plain and simple....Coming across as a heavy is never a good thing...I personally think this all comes down to a bunch of people being worried about losing access to the trails in their backyard because of overuse by outsiders...Not a very good attitude really...We should all be working together to open access up and not fighting to keep things quiet in the local scene...Do you not realize that the only way for this sport to continue to grow is to increase the access to trail, not to limit access...


    I guess you did not read many of the previous postings. Liability and Insurance is and will continue to be a major issue concerning MTB ers and trail building period. The risk of losing trails is not from overuse by riders but rather from lawsuits from people looking for someone else to pay for their stupidity when they get hurt from riding beyond their skill and intelligence.

    Let us keep them posted on the web for all to see. All you have to do is sign your name on the dotted line to cover 5 million liability. Giddy up.

  50. #50
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    This thread = headache

  51. #51
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    Look....I'm going to put one more reply here and let's let it rest...

    I never said anything about liability issues, plain and simple...My statements revolved around Phat's attitude and how he was going about things...Being all heavy handed does not get things accomplished, look at this thread...Working together does...Geez, we're arguing here and we are suppose to be on the same side...

    Rich


    Shab's post says it all......

    Rich
    "The meek shall inherit the earth"

  52. #52
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    rbart 4506
    No you did not say anything about liability issues and this is the single most important issue facing MTB, plain and simple.

    My Attitude
    Posting of trail riding locations that do not have liability issues worked out is wrong. You have got to realize that I tried to go about this without much fuss. "Spam Jam" continues to beg for more postings without what seems to me any concerns for what bad situations this may bring to our sport. The self claimed Tyrant, ride.ca, completely missed the point made by Dutch when he says he will continue to look for hidden Jems and post them for the world to see.

    I wander weather he would be so care free if he had donated 5 years of time to public MTB trails and was told that it may all be closed because of too much promotion and no organization. The powers that be point directly to web sites with trail posting as the biggest problem out there. And they are reading this right now.

    I am mad as hell. This may be a good thing or a bad thing., only time will tell.

  53. #53
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    It's start'n to smell in here....Let's stop beating the dead horse...
    "The meek shall inherit the earth"

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    I'm just wondering about places like Albion, Mansfield, and Hardwood...not to mention other "pay as you bike" places, is there a risk of these places going out of business based on all of the stuff already mentioned above (other than revenue-expense = profit/loss...which I clearly understand), and if so, is there anything I can do about it?

    About all of these other trails on private/public land...I have no comment as I'm confused by the vast amount of information posted above!

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonievut
    I'm just wondering about places like Albion, Mansfield, and Hardwood...not to mention other "pay as you bike" places, is there a risk of these places going out of business based on all of the stuff already mentioned above (other than revenue-expense = profit/loss...which I clearly understand), and if so, is there anything I can do about it?
    Dagmar closed down last year because of the above equation you stated. It's a risk for every area but I believe with the number of events that Albion, Mansfield and Hardwood host each season plus other year round revenue (skiing and hosting school trips) they should be ok.

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    No good

    For the love of god, please stop harassing the property owners!! maybe they were turning a blind eye? we all know the insurance problem is a nightmare, but if they have taken 100 phone calls on the issue, the simplest thing to do will be to put up a big fence and an equally large "NO TRESPASSING" sign.

    And another thing, go out an enjoy a local trail, but you do not need to make yourself feel all important by crowing about it on a website. If you are in a local bike shop and you ask, you will find out about local trails, and good on you. but no trail system can withstand every dumdum in the province that owns a bicycle, driving 3 hours to something they found on the internet. Spread out, enjoy your local trails respectfully, and shut up about it. I believe we all know that we are walking a thin line to continue enjoying "our" sport do not let a few egos spoil it. Over and out!

  57. #57
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    I have a thought

    Why don't we all stop giving this thead any new post so it dies off and hopefully people forget all about it. We can't repair damage already done but we can prevent it from doing anymore. I though Phat Tyred was a complete jack ass till I got talking to him in private messages hes not as bad as he comes across here he is just extreemly pasionate. The best thing we can do is let this thread die and never reopen it.
    Last edited by Johnny Hair Boy; 03-22-2005 at 05:53 PM.

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    Decision

    Sorry JHB, I had one last thing to add and this is the most appropriate thread.


    I waited until was not so hot-under-the-collar and I went back and reread the posts in this thread. The idea was to put myself in other’s shoes and try to see their vantage point, now that I was not under attack anymore. I also spoke with a number of people whom I respect including our forum’s very own JHB; the opinions were as varied as those expressed here, though some far more articulately.
    Ultimately I decided that I should close my “Trails” section altogether (effective immediately). I was using that page as part of how I ran group rides in 2004, so that will also undergo a change.

    No, I never put 5 years into developing a trail system... I don’t think that makes me a bad person, but it did give me pause to think.

    Maybe a partial answer to Copeland forest is for locals to form a club and get IMBA Canada involved… make the place more sustainable; cause the word has been out for quite a while, on far bigger sites and media types than my tiny webpage. I mean, I read about it in a book

    Anyway that was what I decided.
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    Thank you very much SSteel, Truly.

    Johnny will show you better things this year.

    Who knows he may even get to know Rob and be able to take you to the sweet stuff.

    LONG LIVE LONG RIDES

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    If you go to Horseshoeresort.com ( http://www.horseshoeresort.com/location.asp )they have a map of their FREE MTB trails which includes singletrack. Sounds pretty legal to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phat Tyred
    The only Legal Mountain Bike singletrack riding in this area is Hardwood Hills. One of the best places to ride in all of Ontario, well worth the money and I highly recommed it to anyone in the area for ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PedalOctaneManager
    Phat Tyred,

    Let me first just say that of course I feel a sense of responsibility. However, I cannot control what information people will provide (is noted on the trail page). I can only trust the word of the rider submitting the trail. I only wish I had all the legal information on every trail, but that is impossible! Lets be honest here, every rider must be responsible for his/her actions within our sport.
    Now if their is a trail system on my site that is not kosher, please drop me a respectful email and I will follow up on your request! If I could have a legimate list, that would be ideal.


    **NOTE**

    Right now, I am in conversations with the land authorities of Thackeray Park located in Toronto (North End). This park was used in the 1997 Volkswagon Trek championship race. However after that, no further care was given to the trail system that was built for the race and now looks deserted as mostly all of the trails have been weeded over and in some cases impossible to ride through. This is very sad! This trail system has so much potential and the City should get off their fat asses and maintain it with the respect it deserves! I am trying to get IMBA to help out in this cause. My hope is that IMBA will be granted the rights for the trail maitenance here. Last year IMBA was given authority over the Don River Trail system and did a bang up job of which they deserve a great applause!
    However, The Don was not in that bad of shape as Thackeray Park. If any of you would like to help out in this cause please email me.

    Thanks for all your input gang!

    Cheers
    I've never heard of this place and I live right near to it. If you want any help in maintaining it I am very willing to help out however I can.

  62. #62
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    eh Phatty..........are you still mad?

    cheers dude!
    BURN IT UP >>>>>>>>PEDALOCTANE>>>>>>>

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