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  1. #1
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    some more reasons to get out of clips

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  2. #2
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    Oh this'll be a good one...

    I tell everyone I know that's getting into the sport to start with a hardtail and platform pedals. That's all I'm going to say.
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  3. #3
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    OK, let me take the first shot

    So if clips are of dubious advantage, why do all the top cross country and road riders not use platforms?

    Surely different types of pedals are better for different types of riding.

    And maybe I should ditch my parabolic downhill skis and get some dead straight 225's to perfect my technique, rather than relying on modern technology as a crutch.
    Strava made me do it....

  4. #4
    humber river advocate
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued
    So if clips are of dubious advantage, why do all the top cross country and road riders not use platforms?

    Surely different types of pedals are better for different types of riding.

    And maybe I should ditch my parabolic downhill skis and get some dead straight 225's to perfect my technique, rather than relying on modern technology as a crutch.
    not talking about road riding here...

    and you didn't really read the article?
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  5. #5
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    Yep, I read it. It talked about platform pedals being better for raw power, clips being better for endurance. In other words, different pedals work better for different styles of riding.

    And speaking of people not reading things, I mentioned xc riders using clipless pedals too.
    Strava made me do it....

  6. #6
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    good training site also for mtbers
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  7. #7
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    oh sorry, your right. it's not about sking also...

    perhaps all those xc riders are trapped by their dysfunction and are using clipless pedals
    to mask their weaknesses? thus the paradigm that clipless pedals must be better... your response falls into the "trap" as stated in the article...
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  8. #8
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    His third argument is pretty weak! it is very anecdotal, (the first isn't much better) I am pretty sure that most of us are not Sam Hill, and as he points out for a novice rider the clipless pedals will make compensations for lack of pedaling technique, which I am assuming are the dysfunctions the author is writing about.
    My experience of getting people into the sport they will have more confidence on clipless pedals while riding small obstacles and corners, it forces them to stay "grounded" on their bike, even if their body is not in the right position but at least it will allow one part of their contact with the bike to be the same.

    Don't get me wrong I think that flat pedals have there place and everybody who has been riding for a long time should ride flats on occasion to increase technique.

    Then there is the bike fitting end of things for clipless pedals which I feel is the biggest benefit to them, you have a consistent position every time you get on your bike, with proper adjustment it can reduce knee pain, and if you add the exercises and suggestions in the article you can have a very good pedaling technique with very little joint pain and risk of injury.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    oh sorry, your right. it's not about sking also...

    perhaps all those xc riders are trapped by their dysfunction and are using clipless pedals
    to mask their weaknesses? thus the paradigm that clipless pedals must be better... your response falls into the "trap" as stated in the article...

    OK. My bad. Everyone else is wrong and you are right. I guess I forgot who I was talking to. Won't happen again.

    Before you let any of this go to your head, and in case there is any doubt, that was sarcasm.

    And BTW I used to ride freestyle BMX and used platforms for that, because they worked better. Clips work better for me for other things, like xc. Each to their own.
    Strava made me do it....

  10. #10
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    Ugh...

    First mistake he makes, going on about power to the pedals and basically pushing down with the leg. Yet none of his provied exercises does anything.

    What he is referring to is basically a one legged press. Let's look at what world champion and Olympic medal pedal mashers do.

    http://www.muscleandstrength.com/for...ing-coach.html

    Look at sections 7 and 8. It's deadlift, squat, and one legged leg press.

    There is no lunging motion in the cycling leg movement. It's really closer to a alternating leg press. Lunges are a more useful exercise for a runner.

  11. #11
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    Clipless has made me a way better rider than I ever was on platforms or with toeclips. I really don't notice a difference in "power" or any of the things mentioned in the article. What changed it the control and connected feel with the bike. It is much easier to pull up the rear end to clear obsticles, and bunny hops are much easier to pull off.

    I do ride clipless platform pedals because sometimes starting out you do need a nice platform to get going.

  12. #12
    namagomi
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    Not this **** again!

    Offroad, I think flats work without real difference for probably 95% of everybody out there... You want to be an xc racer, switch from flats to clips(once you have some legs), don't start with clips. Start with flats, you'll progress way faster and learn the proper way todo stuff like bunny hop and corner.

    If one day you enter some 100mi xc race, use the clips just because of the sheer boredom your feet my slip off the pedals.

    Staying with either one all the time, also boring...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued
    OK. My bad. Everyone else is wrong and you are right. I guess I forgot who I was talking to. Won't happen again.

    Before you let any of this go to your head, and in case there is any doubt, that was sarcasm.

    And BTW I used to ride freestyle BMX and used platforms for that, because they worked better. Clips work better for me for other things, like xc. Each to their own.
    i think bmx riders are the toughest out there, though very hard on the body. the paradigm holds true in your responses as was predicted by the article... that i find very interesting.
    perhaps you have lost your skills and are using clipless pedals to recapture those skills/strength?
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrastories
    His third argument is pretty weak! it is very anecdotal, (the first isn't much better) I am pretty sure that most of us are not Sam Hill, and as he points out for a novice rider the clipless pedals will make compensations for lack of pedaling technique, which I am assuming are the dysfunctions the author is writing about.
    My experience of getting people into the sport they will have more confidence on clipless pedals while riding small obstacles and corners, it forces them to stay "grounded" on their bike, even if their body is not in the right position but at least it will allow one part of their contact with the bike to be the same.

    Don't get me wrong I think that flat pedals have there place and everybody who has been riding for a long time should ride flats on occasion to increase technique.

    Then there is the bike fitting end of things for clipless pedals which I feel is the biggest benefit to them, you have a consistent position every time you get on your bike, with proper adjustment it can reduce knee pain, and if you add the exercises and suggestions in the article you can have a very good pedaling technique with very little joint pain and risk of injury.
    i think the consistent position is more of a hinderance then a benefit. the problem with alot of riders (mountain that is) is that they don't move around enough on their bikes. it is actually a huge problem with new mtber riders.
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  15. #15
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    people scared of clipless are wussies. its just not that big a deal.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    i think bmx riders are the toughest out there, though very hard on the body. the paradigm holds true in your responses as was predicted by the article... that i find very interesting.
    perhaps you have lost your skills and are using clipless pedals to recapture those skills/strength?
    My BMX, replete with Skyway wheels and a CW Pro handlebar, spent the last two decades hanging from the roof of my parents' garage. I started restoring it last winter and have been riding it from time to time. I can still bunnyhop as high as ever on my platforms so I doubt my skills have atrophied. BMX is a completely different style of riding to xc and road - quick sprints as opposed to keeping a sustained pace over 2+ hours.
    Strava made me do it....

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    Not this **** again!

    A couple of guy's who know their **** about cycling have dealt with this before as well.

    There is no credentials to back up what he is saying. We looked through his site and couldn't find a list of credentials or what not. At most he is a personal trainer who lucked into the right people. At least half of it is marketing and hype.. hype because he works with Yeti.

    Guy's like this.. Trainers are a dime a dozen. The good coaches take years to get where they are.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued
    My BMX, replete with Skyway wheels and a CW Pro handlebar, spent the last two decades hanging from the roof of my parents' garage. I started restoring it last winter and have been riding it from time to time. I can still bunnyhop as high as ever on my platforms so I doubt my skills have atrophied. BMX is a completely different style of riding to xc and road - quick sprints as opposed to keeping a sustained pace over 2+ hours.
    now don't get huff here, but what mountain bike trail can you ride at a sustained pace for
    2+ hours? sounds more like a road. ok ok i know where such trails are. but even the xc loop at joyride i bet someone can do it as fast on platforms as on clips. which brings up another question... are trails being altered to met one end of the paradigm? what other paradigms are in play?
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    A couple of guy's who know their **** about cycling have dealt with this before as well.

    There is no credentials to back up what he is saying. We looked through his site and couldn't find a list of credentials or what not. At most he is a personal trainer who lucked into the right people. At least half of it is marketing and hype.. hype because he works with Yeti.

    Guy's like this.. Trainers are a dime a dozen. The good coaches take years to get where they are.
    this is not about road riding, it's about mountain biking.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    Not this **** again!
    You must be referring to this clusterf&^k of a thread starring guess who;

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=683295

  21. #21
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    You must be referring to this clusterf&^k of a thread starring guess who;

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=683295
    Why, yes!

    Man, I must have a thing for sticking my **** right into a hornet's nest. Probably need therapy

  22. #22
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    Where's the mystery here? Some clipless pedal users could benefit from exposure to riding platforms, and some platform pedal users could benefit from increasing their exposure to riding clipless.

    Last time I checked Peat, the Athertons, Minnar, Kovarik, Gracia, and more all race DH mostly or exclusively on clipless. For general trail riding on semi-tech XC, I've spent some time riding with Wade Simmons and Mark Weir (not regular riding partners of mine, and way out of my league as descenders, and than some!) who strangely enough were both riding clipless pedals also. Pretty weird, huh? It's also been demonstrated to me that someone can get around a standard XC course on platforms faster than I can on clipless.

    That's not to say that clipless or platforms pedals are or or not a better choice, it's only to say that anyone who wants to apply a blanket statement to what type of pedals someone else should be riding is a fool. There will always be exceptions to every rule, so anecdotal examples really aren't worth ***** for discussing this topic, other than to prove that there's always exceptions.

    Bottom line: ride whatever you feel most comfortable with and have fun. However, if you have a goal to navigate your own typical trails more efficiently and quickly and want to play the percentages (instead of wanting to see if you are one of the odd exceptions) then learn to ride clipless the more pedaling-oriented your trails are, while for tech trails as the difficulty increases it becomes more and more likely that platforms may be a viable option. Of course, this is preaching to the choir since anyone riding with a decent level of proficiency has already figured this out what pedals work best for them in which situations (whether they play the percentages or buck the trend) and don't need some numbnuts on internet discussion forum to help them figure it out.

    This should be the end of the thread, but that's hoping for too much.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    this is not about road riding, it's about mountain biking.



    Okay... now to simplify. Regardless of pedal type and terrain... the pedaling dynamic is identical.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Where's the mystery here? Some clipless pedal users could benefit from exposure to riding platforms, and some platform pedal users could benefit from increasing their exposure to riding clipless.
    Bingo. Variety is good for your riding as well as skills. Especially since both require slightly different skills to use. Which is good as it causes the body as well as the mind to work in different ways. Then let's add one plus to flats. Flats require your body to use more energy to use well. So therefore we use more calories.

    Now just to be a Sheite,

    One cannot compare equally the use and pedalling benefits between XC and DH in this argument. What is failed to be acknowledged is that the event requirements are completely different. DH is an event that lasts maybe 2-4 minutes while XC can last way longer.

    I need a beer.

  25. #25
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    This is me not giving a ****. Try **** out, ride what works better for you, end of story.



  26. #26
    r29
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    I started biking with platforms and liked them. Switched to clipless was scared at first because of not being able to unclip in time.

    I can say I do feel a difference riding clipless vs platform.
    - more power not sure why
    - going uphill less effort with clipless. probably because I do not have the proper technique with flats.

    which system I would ride. Both depending on what type of riding I want to do.

    Long distance/city riding - clipless
    techy and new trails never been to - flats

    overall - forget about all this !%@#%@# about which is better ride what you feel is comfortable for you.

    20% = pedals
    80% = your skill/technique

  27. #27
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    People who keep pushing platforms as a better choice, are simply justifying their preferences (often their fear to be clipped in).

    That article is a joke, IMHO.
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  28. #28
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    learn to resize your pictures on photo bucket please... your face palm pic is a fail...
    Last edited by singlesprocket; 03-13-2011 at 07:36 AM.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious
    People who keep pushing platforms as a better choice, are simply justifying their preferences (often their fear to be clipped in).

    That article is a joke, IMHO.
    i can probally ride more techy trails then you with clipless, but that's beside the point...

    the reaction of the clipless commited crowd to the article is the most interesting. the complete blind faith that a certain systen is the best end all system for mtbing. when clipless pedals are questioned and examples/facts are given of clipless short comings, cognitive inflexibility/ruminations start rearing its ugly heads. dichotomies get blurred. the same behavoiral reactions can be seen with regards to wheel sizes, seat post heights, and trails oddly enough...

    actually this is a marketers dream...
    Last edited by singlesprocket; 03-13-2011 at 07:39 AM.
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  30. #30
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    singlesprocket: i can probally ride more techy trails then you with clipless, but that's beside the point...

    Yes it is besides the point, so why mention it?

    singlesprocket: ...the reaction of the clipless commited crowd to the article is the most interesting. the complete blind faith that a certain systen is the best end all system for mtbing.

    Credibility goes out the window when you start arguing that platforms are better then clipless for XC racing (or high performance riding). That is what many of us care about and that is where the article needs to make a difference in order to be credible.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    It's also been demonstrated to me that someone can get around a standard XC course on platforms faster than I can on clipless.
    Though it should be noted usually those guy's have done maybe 2 laps all out. Then drunk some beer had a 2 hour nap then did it again.

  32. #32
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    Odd, a thread talking about flat pedals and no input from our flat pedal experts Team SPEED.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious
    singlesprocket: i can probally ride more techy trails then you with clipless, but that's beside the point...

    Yes it is besides the point, so why mention it?

    singlesprocket: ...the reaction of the clipless commited crowd to the article is the most interesting. the complete blind faith that a certain systen is the best end all system for mtbing.

    Credibility goes out the window when you start arguing that platforms are better then clipless for XC racing (or high performance riding). That is what many of us care about and that is where the article needs to make a difference in order to be credible.
    all depends on the trail... nes pä′
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    the complete blind faith that a certain systen is the best end all system for mtbing.
    I think that's EXACTLY what people are getting annoyed about: your complete blind faith that platforms ("a certain systen" (sic)) are "the best end all system for mtbing". Everyone else is arguing that each type of pedal has its place; you are insulting anyone who rides clipped in. Are you surprised you are eliciting a response?

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl
    I think that's EXACTLY what people are getting annoyed about: your complete blind faith that platforms ("a certain systen" (sic)) are "the best end all system for mtbing". Everyone else is arguing that each type of pedal has its place; you are insulting anyone who rides clipped in. Are you surprised you are eliciting a response?

    Nah, at this point he's trying to provoke a reaction. Pretty pathetic, eh?
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    learn to resize your pictures on photo bucket please... your face palm pic is a fail...
    No. That would make me sensitive.

  37. #37
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious
    People who keep pushing platforms as a better choice, are simply justifying their preferences (often their fear to be clipped in).

    That article is a joke, IMHO.
    I guess you were just born great or plateaued a long time ago. The rest of us don't like or need to be clipped in when progressing skills, learning new techniques or riding a feature.

    Some people want to put forward clipless as the natural choice and platform riders as making a positive statement, it just demonstrates how much you may have forgotten what it is like to be a beginner. There is nothing natural to a person having their feet locked to the "ground". There is no need to jump right in.

    Article aside and just to stir this pot... i find clipless riders commonly are techy riders(the type who are concerned with their quantitative performance), oppositely people using flats are more commonly soul riders(people who are there to seek some flow, a better qualitative performance and probably care less about a 5% performance boost). This is why it's often hilarious to watch a type a "techy" person throw insults such as, "you're afraid", at the "soul" person. A total misunderstanding.

    I don't think singlesprocket is putting forward the idea that clipless don't have a place, i don't agree with that, but i happen to think they are probably a bit too commonplace.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued
    Nah, at this point he's trying to provoke a reaction. Pretty pathetic, eh?
    actually all i did was post an article... you provided the reaction, then got upset as your reaction was identified as ruminations.. pretty pathetic, eh?
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    i find clipless riders commonly are techy riders(the type who are concerned with their quantitative performance), oppositely people using flats are more commonly soul riders(people who are there to seek some flow, a better qualitative performance and probably care less about a 5% performance boost).
    Ahh, I see now.

    I remember the jocks vs. cool kids deal from way back in high school, that you're now bringing forward morphed into your own MTB lingo as "techy/qualitative" riders vs "soul" riders. The part you need to understand is that the rest of us grew out of the teenage angst stage, and don't feel the need to make everything into a them vs. us argument.

    I'm entirely satisfied with the experiences I derive from my own riding choices, and I hope you get the same from yours whether that's XC, DH, FR, Trail/AM, Road, CX, BMX, Urban, Uni or whatever else floats your boat in any combination. Even if our choices aren't the same, I don't feel any specific need to be like you, nor do I feel any need to try to make you be like me.

    Live and let live.

  40. #40
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Ahh, I see now.

    I remember the jocks vs. cool kids deal from way back in high school, that you're now bringing forward morphed into your own MTB lingo as "techy/qualitative" riders vs "soul" riders. The part you need to understand is that the rest of us grew out of the teenage angst stage, and don't feel the need to make everything into a them vs. us argument.

    I'm entirely satisfied with the experiences I derive from my own riding choices, and I hope you get the same from yours whether that's XC, DH, FR, Trail/AM, Road, CX, BMX, Urban, Uni or whatever else floats your boat in any combination. Even if our choices aren't the same, I don't feel any specific need to be like you, nor do I feel any need to try to make you be like me.

    Live and let live.
    I didn't mention which one was better so please don't assume i'm trying to deride people for their own style(otherwise i would be as guilty as others here). I am only being specific here because that is how it has to be when you can't fence sit.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    For general trail riding on semi-tech XC, I've spent some time riding with Wade Simmons and Mark Weir (not regular riding partners of mine, and way out of my league as descenders, and than some!) who strangely enough were both riding clipless pedals also.

    Wade Simmons was scary good back in 93.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    i think the consistent position is more of a hinderance then a benefit. the problem with alot of riders (mountain that is) is that they don't move around enough on their bikes. it is actually a huge problem with new mtber riders.
    I agree with the statement but I don't see how moving your feet an inch in any direction can be anywhere close to moving your hips from your stem to your back tire, that is the thing most riders need to learn first, not the little fine adjustments that trials riders need to do.
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrastories
    I agree with the statement but I don't see how moving your feet an inch in any direction can be anywhere close to moving your hips from your stem to your back tire, that is the thing most riders need to learn first, not the little fine adjustments that trials riders need to do.
    actually the article talks about this as core strength movement. we talked about this on todays ride. an observation club members had was that people who ride clipless tend to have greater bellies (weakness of the diaphragm) . this ties into the article where it talks about about the lack of core strength. interesting
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    actually the article talks about this as core strength movement. we talked about this on todays ride. an observation club members had was that people who ride clipless tend to have greater bellies (weakness of the diaphragm) . this ties into the article where it talks about about the lack of core strength. interesting
    I really need you to confirm, did you just write that the people you are riding with suggested there is a significant correlation between belly size and pedal choice.

    I'm not judging, I just want it confirmed to ensure I am not misinterpreting things.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    i think the consistent position is more of a hinderance then a benefit. the problem with alot of riders (mountain that is) is that they don't move around enough on their bikes. it is actually a huge problem with new mtber riders.
    Uh, yeah, that's cause they're new mountain bike riders. New riders don't learn how to shift their weight around within a week of taking up the sport, it's a skill which takes time to learn. If you ride a rigid bike with flats it forces you to stay loose & learn faster so you don't bounce off the bike, assuming that you don't get so frustrated that you give up entirely, which does happen. Ride a 5" travel full suspension bike and you likely won't learn as fast since you won't get punted off the bike if you stiff leg it through a rock garden.

    Question is how do we teach those beginners and get them up to speed? I've thought about it from time to time but I can't say I have any great ideas.

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    Okay, now let's look at another aspect not mentioned in this little pissing contest.

    That being how the footwear and pedals effect our feet. Specifically how our feet behave in the shoes. Just from personal observation. I notice if I ride for to long in clipless shoes- hard stiff soles when I use flats again my feet hurt.

    Why would that be? Easy actually, when riding in stiff soled shoes for our feet it's basically like having a cast wrapped around it. Cast's as we all know after a period of time cause the muscles to become weak. Basically our feet don't have to actually do any work.

    When you ride with flats and the soft sole shoes the foot is forced to actually work. The muscles are activated ($50 dollar word). They have to make miniscule adjustments to keep riding. Your feet will be flexing and such to keep contact with the pedals.

    Then add the fact that with this will cause a whole pile of nerve stimulating which will fire a whole bunch of neurons and shite in the brain. Which in terms of brain health is a good thing.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor
    I really need you to confirm, did you just write that the people you are riding with suggested there is a significant correlation between belly size and pedal choice.

    I'm not judging, I just want it confirmed to ensure I am not misinterpreting things.
    nope not kidding here, there is a condition. i didn't believe it at first also. i'll see if i can get the medical term. it does make sense that posture plays a factor. if the riding style tends to favour certain muscle groups, in the other groups muscle atrophies can happen
    this is why core strength is so important, not just the legs
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    nope not kidding here, there is a condition. i didn't believe it at first also. i'll see if i can get the medical term. it does make sense that posture plays a factor. if the riding style tends to favour certain muscle groups, in the other groups muscle atrophies can happen
    this is why core strength is so important, not just the legs

    Nothing new and exciting here. It's really a imbalance. Some muscles get weaker while others will get stronger based on how the activity effects the body.

    This is why those who are single sport athlete's get injured all the time. This is being seen in female volleyball players for example who are only doing the one sport for 365 days of the year. This is nothing new, runners back in the 70's discovered this during the running boom. Which led them to start adding swimming, bike riding, weights, and so on to their training. The creation of what is called cross training.

    It has been shown that this all together will decrease injuries as and improve your bodies condition.

    In general thought, most mountain bikers would benefit from more time in the gym doing a good basic program. Using a good selection of multi joint exercises- bench, standing squat, deadlifts, standing press, cleans, and so on.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    Okay, now let's look at another aspect not mentioned in this little pissing contest.

    That being how the footwear and pedals effect our feet. Specifically how our feet behave in the shoes. Just from personal observation. I notice if I ride for to long in clipless shoes- hard stiff soles when I use flats again my feet hurt.

    Why would that be? Easy actually, when riding in stiff soled shoes for our feet it's basically like having a cast wrapped around it. Cast's as we all know after a period of time cause the muscles to become weak. Basically our feet don't have to actually do any work.

    When you ride with flats and the soft sole shoes the foot is forced to actually work. The muscles are activated ($50 dollar word). They have to make miniscule adjustments to keep riding. Your feet will be flexing and such to keep contact with the pedals.

    Then add the fact that with this will cause a whole pile of nerve stimulating which will fire a whole bunch of neurons and shite in the brain. Which in terms of brain health is a good thing.
    I had a strange reaction when I switched from flats to clipless. I had lots and lots of foot pain for about 3 months. Then it completely went away. No problems at all now.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    Article aside and just to stir this pot... i find clipless riders commonly are techy riders(the type who are concerned with their quantitative performance), oppositely people using flats are more commonly soul riders(people who are there to seek some flow, a better qualitative performance and probably care less about a 5% performance boost). This is why it's often hilarious to watch a type a "techy" person throw insults such as, "you're afraid", at the "soul" person. A total misunderstanding.


    ZOMG one rider is clipped and one rider is on flats in that shot, these two mortal enemies have been captured on film together riding for "soul".

    Is the flats guy's experience different from the clipped guy? Pretty f'in sure both Flip and I had the same grin riding this stuff one on flats one on clipless.

    https://www.danbarham.com/portfolio/trail/2/

    https://www.danbarham.com/portfolio/trail/14/

    https://www.danbarham.com/portfolio/trail/15/

    OMG several more pics of clippless and flats riding together for "soul" bro.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk
    Is the flats guy's experience different from the clipped guy?
    [techy]That depends. Can you quantify soul?[/techy]
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    [techy]That depends. Can you quantify soul?[/techy]
    Yes more is better. duh.

    I've been keeping detailed spreadsheets on this and will soon publish my findings.

    32.781% more soul is achieved when wearing baggy shorts.

    A stunner of a statistic is that 78.9642% more soul is achieved with longer side burns and goatee. Still researching but an actual soul patch might put the numbers thru the roof.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk
    Yes more is better. duh.

    I've been keeping detailed spreadsheets on this and will soon publish my findings.

    32.781% more soul is achieved when wearing baggy shorts.

    A stunner of a statistic is that 78.9642% more soul is achieved with longer side burns and goatee. Still researching but an actual soul patch might put the numbers thru the roof.
    Hmm,
    • sideburns: check
    • baggies: check
    • beer consumption: check

    And yet, somehow, I still ended up inviting everyone to my place to go on a road ride. There's something missing here...
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk
    Is the flats guy's experience different from the clipped guy? Pretty f'in sure both Flip and I had the same grin riding this stuff one on flats one on clipless.
    Grin on your face is obviously photoshopped. You are a soul rider wannabe.

  55. #55
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    Did you apply all three of those to the road ride?

    That would result in a decent soul reward according to my spreadsheet.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Grin on your face is obviously photoshopped. You are a soul rider wannabe.
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Grin on your face is obviously photoshopped. You are a soul rider wannabe.
    I was actually on flats.

    Flip was on clips. As you can see here in the picture the smile on that day was pretty real.


  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk
    I was actually on flats. Flip was on clips.
    OK fine.

    Grin on Todd's face is obviously photoshopped. Todd is a soul rider wannabe.

  59. #59
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    OMG the clipped "soul rider wannabe" even somehow managed to pick the more difficult line.

    Minds are blown.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk
    OMG the clipped "soul rider wannabe" even somehow managed to pick the more difficult line.

    Minds are blown.
    Are you certain the clipped in rider wasn't qualitatively evaluating their performance on that line?

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Are you certain the clipped in rider wasn't qualitatively evaluating their performance on that line?
    He does do both the twoonie xc races and the phat wednesday DH races (clipless for both) do I suspect there is some evaluation going on there.

    He is likely also calculating how much less beer he will to drink at the end of the ride to compensate for using less core muscles. Gotta keep that belly in-check.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk
    Gotta keep that belly in-check.
    Now you're just making a mockery of this informative and thought-provoking thread. I want my click back!
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    Now you're just making a mockery of this informative and thought-provoking thread. I want my click back!
    You'll need to contact this threads stakeholders and take it up with them.

    I hear they are not giving clicks back, but you get a zip tie instead.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk
    You'll need to contact this threads stakeholders and take it up with them.
    You mean these guys?

    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk

    Hmm.. I have been to that Hut before. No I will not tell you where to even start looking as I was sworn to secrecy. And if I recall correctly it was moved at one point.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    Hmm,
    • sideburns: check
    • baggies: check
    • beer consumption: check

    And yet, somehow, I still ended up inviting everyone to my place to go on a road ride. There's something missing here...

    It's more of a cruise ride so baggies are allowed. Though I may be the only one willing to lug a beer per stop for hydration.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    Hmm.. I have been to that Hut before. No I will not tell you where to even start looking as I was sworn to secrecy. And if I recall correctly it was moved at one point.
    The Stu Inn is a fine spot to stop for a sip from the flask before bombing Khybers in both summer or winter.

  68. #68
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    The XC loop at Joyride - as fun as it is, I did 25km on it the other night - is not at all representitive of what an XC trail is like.

    That's a good thing. It works skills and muscles that don't necessarily get worked that hard on a normal race or trail ride. I think it has made me a better rider.

    And I do it clipped in.

    I started as a BMX racer too. I have a Kuwahara Lazer-Lie (CW Pro bars, GT "meat tenderizer" stem, Readline 400 Flights) that I took to Worlds in '85. The flat pedals I ran on my MTB forever are 1987 vintage Shinamo DX.

    And having tried clips, I'll never go back to flats.

    DG

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    Okay, now let's look at another aspect not mentioned in this little pissing contest.

    That being how the footwear and pedals effect our feet. Specifically how our feet behave in the shoes. Just from personal observation. I notice if I ride for to long in clipless shoes- hard stiff soles when I use flats again my feet hurt.

    Why would that be? Easy actually, when riding in stiff soled shoes for our feet it's basically like having a cast wrapped around it. Cast's as we all know after a period of time cause the muscles to become weak. Basically our feet don't have to actually do any work.

    When you ride with flats and the soft sole shoes the foot is forced to actually work. The muscles are activated ($50 dollar word). They have to make miniscule adjustments to keep riding. Your feet will be flexing and such to keep contact with the pedals.

    Then add the fact that with this will cause a whole pile of nerve stimulating which will fire a whole bunch of neurons and shite in the brain. Which in terms of brain health is a good thing.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantar_fasciitis

    the closer you are to barefoot and move your feet the better...
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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by RecceDG
    The XC loop at Joyride - as fun as it is, I did 25km on it the other night - is not at all representitive of what an XC trail is like.

    DG
    25km on the XC at Joyride? Thats about 50 loops!

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk


    OMG the clipped "soul rider wannabe" even somehow managed to pick the more difficult line.

    Minds are blown.
    wait a sec is that eastern canada? i find it interesting that some people who live/ride out west constantly post on the eastern canada forum. whats up with that? coastal confusion? to be fair some people here post constantly on western forums...

    no wonder there is a soul issue...
    broadcasting from
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  72. #72
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    this "soul" thing has touched a nerve among several posters here... interesting
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  73. #73
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    My 2 cents:

    I rode (road) for 15 years with toe clips...

    I moved on to clipless on both road bikes and mtb as soon as they were available...

    I moved over to flat, very spikey, shin burger pedals in 2008 and won't be going back to clipless...

    I don't do road bikes anymore... and I no longer indulge in my Lycra fetish... nor wear my swiss cheese helmet...


    More fun... more freedom... more skill....


    Maybe its trading one uniform for another, but I'm not so sure.

  74. #74
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    Flats are good some times, clips are good some times it really depends on where you are riding and what skills you have. Pestering the XC race crowd to ride flats and drop there posts makes as much sense as telling dirt jumpers to raise there posts and get some spds. It seems to me that this is a thinly veiled attack to get Ontario trails to be more tech ala North Shore of Vancouver.
    it tied the room together man!

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    I don't see an attack on anybody in particular.

    If I was racing XC, I would use clipless pedals for the simple reason that I would save time with foot placements when compared to flat pedals, i.e. I wouldn't have to think about it and could concentrate on the race, on other competitors and on the terrain instead. I would effectively ride faster for this reason. The pedal myths are probably myths but they do not cover all the aspects of riding clipless or flat pedals and are therefore mischievously misleading...

    but good for a laugh

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn Mike 2
    My 2 cents:

    I rode (road) for 15 years with toe clips...

    I moved on to clipless on both road bikes and mtb as soon as they were available...

    I moved over to flat, very spikey, shin burger pedals in 2008 and won't be going back to clipless...

    I don't do road bikes anymore... and I no longer indulge in my Lycra fetish... nor wear my swiss cheese helmet...


    More fun... more freedom... more skill....


    Maybe its trading one uniform for another, but I'm not so sure.
    Your story is very similar to my experiences (road to mtb). In 3 years my technical skills have progressed rapidly over a relatively short period of time partly as a result of riding with platforms. DH is fun and I have established some goals for this year to progress even more.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    wait a sec is that eastern canada? i find it interesting that some people who live/ride out west constantly post on the eastern canada forum. whats up with that? coastal confusion? to be fair some people here post constantly on western forums...

    no wonder there is a soul issue...
    Both riders are from Ontario, learned to ride and love the sport there before moving on to new trails and challenges in BC.

    That particular trail could be recreated in many spots along the Escarpment. Might not get the same moss but the rock formation is very similar. Not much elevation gain on that trail just some wicked fun rock rides.

    Coastal confusion? Get over it. I still hold a soft spot for where I grew up. Long time friends are all still back east and riding. I also like to keep up with the "scene".

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclelicious
    In 3 years my technical skills have progressed rapidly over a relatively short period of time partly as a result of riding with platforms.
    I would say that if you rode regularly over the last 3 years, your skills would improve regardless of the equipment you use.

    Let's say, I don't know, I was a big fan of rigid single-speed 29ers and I believed all the same things about that set-up that are being propped up here about platforms.

    If, every six months, I started a thread with a title like "some more reasons to get rid of your suspension fork", would you guys rattle-on for pages about how Fox forks have more soul?
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    would you guys rattle-on for pages about how Fox forks have more soul?
    yes, it's a quantifiable fact

    squishy * Fox = more soul

    Well i can really only attest the Fox has more soul than rockshox and Marzocchi...or am i confusing soul with ability to withstand abuse...i digress.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by teebor76xc
    yes, it's a quantifiable fact

    squishy * Fox = more soul
    By your sacrilegious attempt to quantify soul (which defies quantification by its very nature) it is clear that you possess no soul to qualify.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    Let's say, I don't know, I was a big fan of rigid single-speed 29ers and I believed all the same things about that set-up that are being propped up here about platforms.
    are you mad? drinking the kool-aid ain't got no soul.

    (sorry, i just wanted to say that before electrik!)

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk
    The Stu Inn is a fine spot to stop for a sip from the flask before bombing Khybers in both summer or winter.

    This will pre date Flip and you Shirk. This was way back before the lift access in summer. Only way down was via a group guided tour. We climbed up.

    This was from 2002.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    I would say that if you rode regularly over the last 3 years, your skills would improve regardless of the equipment you use.

    Let's say, I don't know, I was a big fan of rigid single-speed 29ers and I believed all the same things about that set-up that are being propped up here about platforms.

    If, every six months, I started a thread with a title like "some more reasons to get rid of your suspension fork", would you guys rattle-on for pages about how Fox forks have more soul?
    an unbiased oberservation will observe a heck of alot more propping being done by one side...

    reminds me of biopace cranks...

    growing older usually cures ones misplaced infatuation with redundant sado masochistic technologies...
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  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    an unbiased oberservation will observe a heck of alot more propping being done by one side...
    Someone still isn't getting it. There are no sides with respect to the actual issues under discussion.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk


    ZOMG one rider is clipped and one rider is on flats in that shot, these two mortal enemies have been captured on film together riding for "soul".

    Is the flats guy's experience different from the clipped guy? Pretty f'in sure both Flip and I had the same grin riding this stuff one on flats one on clipless.

    https://www.danbarham.com/portfolio/trail/2/

    https://www.danbarham.com/portfolio/trail/14/

    https://www.danbarham.com/portfolio/trail/15/

    OMG several more pics of clippless and flats riding together for "soul" bro.
    Sorry to disappoint, but i'm not pitting clipless and flat riders as mortal enemies. Far from it, you shouldn't charge in here assuming things.

    If you want to mock soul riding, that is ok - Good for you, bro.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by VVagabond
    are you mad? drinking the kool-aid ain't got no soul.

    (sorry, i just wanted to say that before electrik!)
    Nice pun. Or did you just misunderstand?

  87. #87
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    Ride with clips. Then ride without clips.

    Now go back to the clips. Now again without.

    You know you want to.
    The above statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    I would say that if you rode regularly over the last 3 years, your skills would improve regardless of the equipment you use.

    Let's say, I don't know, I was a big fan of rigid single-speed 29ers and I believed all the same things about that set-up that are being propped up here about platforms.

    If, every six months, I started a thread with a title like "some more reasons to get rid of your suspension fork", would you guys rattle-on for pages about how Fox forks have more soul?
    My DH skills improved because I use the proper equipment including platforms. After 3 years of practice I can confidently ride intermediate trails. I will continue to progress to expert trails tihis year. I use clipless for road and spinning

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclelicious
    the proper equipment including platforms.
    This is a myth.

    Neither platforms nor clipsless are better or worse for DH. They are just different.

    If YOU feel better on flats for DH and think it helps you progress that is great.

    But one is no more proper than the other.

    Lots of riders progressed their skills in DH and technical riding on clipless pedals.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantar_fasciitis

    the closer you are to barefoot and move your feet the better...

    I can use a flexible foot bed to flex the arch in your foot which allows for more joint movement throughout the foot and more feedback (proprioception-there is your $50 word for the day). I do this all day long in ski boots, if I can make a foot flex inside a ski boot then I am sure I can make it flex inside a cycling shoe. I use to get pain in my feet untill I put custom fiberglass footbeds in my shoes. now I can easily go back and forth from soft souled shoes to stiff carbon soled shoes with no pain. Think of it as putting your foot into a ready flexed athletic position, so it will make it easier to react quickly. Companies like Conformable and Specialized know this very well and make it a big part of bike fitting.
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  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    Sorry to disappoint, but i'm not pitting clipless and flat riders as mortal enemies. Far from it, you shouldn't charge in here assuming things.

    If you want to mock soul riding, that is ok - Good for you, bro.
    neither did i, just an interesting article and observing/commenting reactions based on that article. actually if you look at the posts it clearly seems like one polarlized group got it's features ruffled and trying to attack the other group with.
    -mocking
    -harrasment
    -character assassination
    -patronizing
    -name calling
    broadcasting from
    "the vinyl basement"

    build trail!

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk
    Both riders are from Ontario, learned to ride and love the sport there before moving on to new trails and challenges in BC.

    That particular trail could be recreated in many spots along the Escarpment. Might not get the same moss but the rock formation is very similar. Not much elevation gain on that trail just some wicked fun rock rides.

    Coastal confusion? Get over it. I still hold a soft spot for where I grew up. Long time friends are all still back east and riding. I also like to keep up with the "scene".
    so the pic is out west then? unless the rock has the same sediment layers (matched geology) the comparsion ends at general looks. escarpment rock is notoriously slippery if even the slightest bit wet and seems to support some type of algae growth on it.
    broadcasting from
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  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk
    This is a myth.

    Neither platforms nor clipsless are better or worse for DH. They are just different.

    If YOU feel better on flats for DH and think it helps you progress that is great.

    But one is no more proper than the other.

    Lots of riders progressed their skills in DH and technical riding on clipless pedals.
    Platforms work for me and they work well for the riders I've met both DH and on trails.
    The article accompaning this thread makes sense to me based on my cycling experiences and my knowledge as a medical professional

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    If you want to mock soul riding, that is ok - Good for you, bro.
    WTF is "soul riding" anyway? Is it like pornography in that "you know it when you see it"? Does it necessarily include weed?
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    WTF is "soul riding" anyway? Is it like pornography in that "you know it when you see it"? Does it necessarily include weed?
    From what I can tell, I think it's kinda like Scientology, no one really knows the rules unless you are on the inside, at which point you aren't permitted to divulge the statute. Everyone else is just going to hell.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor
    From what I can tell, I think it's kinda like Scientology, no one really knows the rules unless you are on the inside, at which point you aren't permitted to divulge the statute. Everyone else is just going to hell.
    Is there Magic Underwear? Oh no, wait, that's Mormonism...
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrastories
    I can use a flexible foot bed to flex the arch in your foot which allows for more joint movement throughout the foot and more feedback (proprioception-there is your $50 word for the day). I do this all day long in ski boots, if I can make a foot flex inside a ski boot then I am sure I can make it flex inside a cycling shoe. I use to get pain in my feet untill I put custom fiberglass footbeds in my shoes. now I can easily go back and forth from soft souled shoes to stiff carbon soled shoes with no pain. Think of it as putting your foot into a ready flexed athletic position, so it will make it easier to react quickly. Companies like Conformable and Specialized know this very well and make it a big part of bike fitting.
    Yes.. because the human foot is "broken". You are aware that the best way to weaken an arch is to put a support under it right?

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    neither did i, just an interesting article and observing/commenting reactions based on that article. actually if you look at the posts it clearly seems like one polarlized group got it's features ruffled and trying to attack the other group with.
    -mocking
    -harrasment
    -character assassination
    -patronizing
    -name calling
    Yeah, i can't tell you before i even bought a pair of clips that some techy guys were nagging me like old maids in the parking lot that i just had to get clipless. Not legitimate if i didn't. I also just about lol'd for real when somebody told me clipless were normal, i guess people here are really are a little too insular and out out of touch with the rest of the world.
    Last edited by electrik; 03-16-2011 at 07:47 PM.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    insular
    I nominate this as MTBR Eastern Canada Word of the Year. Makes me smile every time!
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    WTF is "soul riding" anyway? Is it like pornography in that "you know it when you see it"? Does it necessarily include weed?
    I'm sorry to have mentioned.

    I made a pretty big mistake to say something(particularly when the old men on here make a career of harassing people), lesson learned.

  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    I nominate this as MTBR Eastern Canada Word of the Year. Makes me smile every time!
    Glad it brought a smile to you. Though, maybe you think nobody on here is insular? It is something to think about.

  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    Glad it brought a smile to you. Though, maybe you think nobody on here is insular? It is something to think about.
    On the contrary, I think EVERYONE here is insular.
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    neither did i, just an interesting article and observing/commenting reactions based on that article. actually if you look at the posts it clearly seems like one polarlized group got it's features ruffled and trying to attack the other group with.
    -mocking
    -harrasment
    -character assassination
    -patronizing
    -name calling
    Funniest thing I read all day! Awesome!

  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    neither did i, just an interesting article and observing/commenting reactions based on that article. actually if you look at the posts it clearly seems like one polarlized group got it's features ruffled and trying to attack the other group with.
    -mocking
    -harrasment
    -character assassination
    -patronizing
    -name calling
    Cool story bro.

  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Cool story bro.
    all one has to do is look back at your past posts...
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  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Someone still isn't getting it.
    the pot calling the kettle black
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  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Cool story bro.
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    On the contrary, I think EVERYONE here is insular.
    You may think me insular, but no matter how friendly you're still not getting my phone number!

  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    all one has to do is look back at your past posts...
    Hey, I said it was a cool story bro. Maybe you can learn to take a compliment a little more graciously in the future?

  110. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Hey, I said it was a cool story bro. Maybe you can learn to take a compliment a little more graciously in the future?
    So, somebody telling you that they feel you're harassing them is a cool story for you?

  111. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    So, somebody telling you that they feel you're harassing them is a cool story for you?
    Does the plot of every book or movie, fictional or otherwise, have to be completely happy happy joy joy for it to be cool?

  112. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    So, somebody telling you that they feel you're harassing them is a cool story for you?
    Teehee, I see what you did there: "Last edited by electrik : 21 Minutes Ago at 10:47 PM."!
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  113. #113
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    Teehee, I see what you did there: "Last edited by electrik : 21 Minutes Ago at 10:47 PM."!
    Yeah... you got me.

    I decided it was not nice to name names even if those people had it coming IMO.

  114. #114
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Does the plot of every book or movie, fictional or otherwise, have to be completely happy happy joy joy for it to be cool?
    This is a real person, not a story book. It's never cool to ignore that.

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    This is a real person, not a story book. It's never cool to ignore that.
    If you insist...

    I thought it was a gritty real life account of strife and oppression on the internet, featuring a compelling protagonist struggling valiantly against insurmountable odds to rise above the lunacy of his surroundings that incessantly plot to destroy him. His characterization of the internet forums as being a microcosm of the human condition was both refreshing and powerful. A breath of fresh air amongst a sea of stale and tired narratives. Definitely one of the must-see threads of 2011.

  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    that article is flat out wrong on several points. simply someones uneducated opinion, it is not fact or fact based.

  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoutcat
    that article is flat out wrong on several points. simply someones uneducated opinion, it is not fact or fact based.
    We have already established that fact. We have now moved on to slander, innuendo, and something about her ass.

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    If you insist...

    I thought it was a gritty real life account of strife and oppression on the internet, featuring a compelling protagonist struggling valiantly against insurmountable odds to rise above the lunacy of his surroundings that incessantly plot to destroy him. His characterization of the internet forums as being a microcosm of the human condition was both refreshing and powerful. A breath of fresh air amongst a sea of stale and tired narratives. Definitely one of the must-see threads of 2011.
    still angry eh?
    broadcasting from
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    build trail!

  119. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    We have already established that fact. We have now moved on to slander, innuendo, and something about her ass.

    what a minute. i don't see you coaching world cup racers or publishing articles...
    broadcasting from
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  120. #120
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoutcat
    that article is flat out wrong on several points. simply someones uneducated opinion, it is not fact or fact based.

    ... ironic.

  121. #121
    namagomi
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    still angry eh?
    I figure once he started lying, it would get really funny... o well.

  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    what a minute. i don't see you coaching world cup racers or publishing articles...
    Because the only way to be a knowledgable on topics like this is publish articles or coaching wold cup racers.

  123. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    I figure once he started lying, it would get really funny... o well.
    I sense the wind is coming out of your sails somewhat. I miss the old electrik, full of vim and vigour. What happened to the happy go lucky guy that questioned my sexuality for drinking rosé?
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    I sense the wind is coming out of your sails somewhat. I miss the old electrik, full of vim and vigour. What happened to the happy go lucky guy that questioned my sexuality for drinking rosé?
    Sorry, sweetie - it seems his interest has been diverted elsewhere:
    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    You may think me insular, but no matter how friendly you're still not getting my phone number!
    But who's the lucky fellow (or gal)?

  125. #125
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    k, I'll bite, and I'll probabl get flamed. but here goes nuthin.
    I used to ride flats, but that was then they were rubber with reflectors inbedded into the side. I beleive the called them "pedals".

    When I started MTBing after a few years absence... more like 15 or so. I jumped on the clipless craze, and loved it. Then some movie that starts with a "K" said I should go flats so I can be cool and handle crazy technical stuff. I tried and I couldn't handle the crazies.
    Back to clipless I come and I still cant handle crazy technical stuff, in fact I suck.... bad.

    However, when I am riding bonk hill,in all out effort with my clipless I really do appreciate the fact that I can lift with one pedal and push down with the other as I climb, making my climb much more tolerable and making my times improve expodentially.

    because of the clipless...

  126. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by santabooze
    k, I'll bite, and I'll probabl get flamed. but here goes nuthin.
    I used to ride flats, but that was then they were rubber with reflectors inbedded into the side. I beleive the called them "pedals".

    When I started MTBing after a few years absence... more like 15 or so. I jumped on the clipless craze, and loved it. Then some movie that starts with a "K" said I should go flats so I can be cool and handle crazy technical stuff. I tried and I couldn't handle the crazies.
    Back to clipless I come and I still cant handle crazy technical stuff, in fact I suck.... bad.

    However, when I am riding bonk hill,in all out effort with my clipless I really do appreciate the fact that I can lift with one pedal and push down with the other as I climb, making my climb much more tolerable and making my times improve expodentially.

    because of the clipless...
    Me too and you're not alone... I suck too. I'm cool with that. I'll get better. It's all about choice really and choices are all about personal taste and taste is relative.

    I'm surprised it generates so much controversy.

  127. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck50
    Me too and you're not alone... I suck too. I'm cool with that. I'll get better.
    The key is understanding that we all suck and that we'll all get better just by getting out and riding. Equipment is just a teeny part of the equation.

    To my knowledge, there are only a handful (if that) of Eastern Canada members that can truly claim to ride at a World-class level and I'll wager even they think they have room for improvement.
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  128. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    The key is understanding that we all suck and that we'll all get better just by getting out and riding. Equipment is just a teeny part of the equation.

    To my knowledge, there are only a handful (if that) of Eastern Canada members that can truly claim to ride at a World-class level and I'll wager even they think they have room for improvement.
    Amen, I did get a beauty shiny new bike and I know that it's certainly not going to make me a better rider. That will only come with time, practice and a willingness to be battered and bruised all summer long! Can't wait! Like my husband says "if you don't fall you're not pushing yourself"

  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    I figure once he started lying, it would get really funny... o well.
    Now my feelings are all hurt and stuff like that. Time for me to come clean I suppose.

    In this thread I used the descriptive phrase "numbnuts" to describe a person or larger collection of persons in the general sense. In fact, I do not have any specific knowledge of whether the aforementioned person or persons have numb nuts.

  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by santabooze
    k, I'll bite, and I'll probabl get flamed. but here goes nuthin.
    I used to ride flats, but that was then they were rubber with reflectors inbedded into the side. I beleive the called them "pedals".

    When I started MTBing after a few years absence... more like 15 or so. I jumped on the clipless craze, and loved it. Then some movie that starts with a "K" said I should go flats so I can be cool and handle crazy technical stuff. I tried and I couldn't handle the crazies.
    Back to clipless I come and I still cant handle crazy technical stuff, in fact I suck.... bad.

    However, when I am riding bonk hill,in all out effort with my clipless I really do appreciate the fact that I can lift with one pedal and push down with the other as I climb, making my climb much more tolerable and making my times improve expodentially.

    because of the clipless...
    since you agreed with the clipless camp you won't get flamed and praised for your choice, now if you agreed with the platform camp the you will be called an uneducated knuckle dragger that doesn't understand the finer points of cycling... now that's funny
    broadcasting from
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  131. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Now my feelings are all hurt and stuff like that. Time for me to come clean I suppose.

    In this thread I used the descriptive phrase "numbnuts" to describe a person or larger collection of persons in the general sense. In fact, I do not have any specific knowledge of whether the aforementioned person or persons have numb nuts.
    that you jump to conclusions based on gossip and innuendo is old news as past threads in this forum have shown... perhaps being less judgemental and less insular is the way to go?
    broadcasting from
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  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    since you agreed with the clipless camp you won't get flamed and praised for your choice, now if you agreed with the platform camp the you will be called an uneducated knuckle dragger that doesn't understand the finer points of cycling... now that's funny
    Though, declaring your preference for clipless, you are labeling yourself as a dysfunctional XC rider with weak skills. One of the first posts of this thread, must be true.

    Edit: and don't worry, that quote was an answer to why all of the top XC riders (and translates to why many of the top DH and BMX riders) use clips. Clearly if they are dysfunctional and have weak skills, what chance do us mortals stand?

    While I'd love to say just ride what makes you happy, the answer is clearly obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by unknown
    perhaps all those xc riders are trapped by their dysfunction and are using clipless pedals to mask their weaknesses?

  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    that you jump to conclusions based on gossip and innuendo is old news as past threads in this forum have shown... perhaps being less judgemental and less insular is the way to go?
    OMG there is innuendo on internet discussion forums? That sounds like a very serious problem. Let's return to that in a second.

    As far as jumping to conclusions, we'll have to agree to disagree. What you think of as jumping to conclusions, I instead classify as simply calling a spade a spade.

    Now back to the critical topic of innuendo on internet forums. What we need to do is;

    1. Shut down the internet until this innuendo problem is dealt with.

    2. Form a committee from amongst the stakeholders. Interested candidates please send resumes including details of your relevant experience to me by PM, although that may be difficult while the internet is shut down (see item 1 above).

    3. Invite the public to a series of workshops and open house sessions to raise awareness and conduct discussions about innuendo on the internet.

    4. Develop an action plan in keeping with the needs and interests of all stakeholders.

    5. Restart the internet, but with a strict policy in place that all discussion forums must observe the basic form of Robert's Rules.

    6. Any use of innuendo on discussion forums must take the form of a proper motion, to be seconded, put to the members, and voted upon. If the vote is passed by the majority of members, the innuendo may be implemented within a forum posting.

  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    since you agreed with the clipless camp you won't get flamed and praised for your choice, now if you agreed with the platform camp the you will be called an uneducated knuckle dragger that doesn't understand the finer points of cycling... now that's funny
    Well...I think you are right.... it's been about 8 hours and I don't see any smoke...no flaming here!
    Always remember - You are unique, just like everyone else.

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Now my feelings are all hurt and stuff like that. Time for me to come clean I suppose.

    In this thread I used the descriptive phrase "numbnuts" to describe a person or larger collection of persons in the general sense. In fact, I do not have any specific knowledge of whether the aforementioned person or persons have numb nuts.
    Sorry, I don't mean to hurt your feelings and stuff like that. You're obviously not lacking in empathy.

    Numb nuts are often caused by compressed taints, which might explain the lack of love channels in this thread.

  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor
    Though, declaring your preference for clipless, you are labeling yourself as a dysfunctional XC rider with weak skills. One of the first posts of this thread, must be true.

    Edit: and don't worry, that quote was an answer to why all of the top XC riders (and translates to why many of the top DH and BMX riders) use clips. Clearly if they are dysfunctional and have weak skills, what chance do us mortals stand?

    While I'd love to say just ride what makes you happy, the answer is clearly obvious.
    Please, 95% of the techy people wearing clipless out there for the "uber-performance" are putting lipstick on a pig. If you can pedal your butt off with flats you might actually be justified in touting clipless as really upping your game in an XC competition. Clipless people should quit the parking lot proselytization.

    Quite possibly the root of this shoe fetishism begins in the post-patriarchy(?) home. It's clear to me that more shiny shoes won't fix a gaping hole in fundamental skills as a result of poor investment in the basics. Though I can see how one might think that it's all about the shiny shoes without any male role models.

  137. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    Clipless people should quit the parking lot proselytization.
    In the literal sense, of course they should. The most prevalent theme of this thread which is along the lines of "ride whatever you like", cuts both ways.

  138. #138
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    This thread has become like masturbating with a basterd filemildly amusing but mostly painful.

  139. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    OMG there is innuendo on internet discussion forums? That sounds like a very serious problem. Let's return to that in a second.

    As far as jumping to conclusions, we'll have to agree to disagree. What you think of as jumping to conclusions, I instead classify as simply calling a spade a spade.

    Now back to the critical topic of innuendo on internet forums. What we need to do is;

    1. Shut down the internet until this innuendo problem is dealt with.

    2. Form a committee from amongst the stakeholders. Interested candidates please send resumes including details of your relevant experience to me by PM, although that may be difficult while the internet is shut down (see item 1 above).

    3. Invite the public to a series of workshops and open house sessions to raise awareness and conduct discussions about innuendo on the internet.

    4. Develop an action plan in keeping with the needs and interests of all stakeholders.

    5. Restart the internet, but with a strict policy in place that all discussion forums must observe the basic form of Robert's Rules.

    6. Any use of innuendo on discussion forums must take the form of a proper motion, to be seconded, put to the members, and voted upon. If the vote is passed by the majority of members, the innuendo may be implemented within a forum posting.
    here's a good thread to bring up again...
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=636529
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  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    This thread has become like masturbating with a basterd filemildly amusing but mostly painful.
    ahh a subject your an expert on perhaps?
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  141. #141
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    back on topic, interesting vid why clips might not be such a good idea...

    <iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/21034147" width="400" height="225" frameborder="0"></iframe><p><a href="http://vimeo.com/21034147">BUCS 2011 X.C Carnage!</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user1818894">Joe Bowman</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>
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  142. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    back on topic, interesting vid why clips might not be such a good idea...

    <iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/21034147" width="400" height="225" frameborder="0"></iframe><p><a href="http://vimeo.com/21034147">BUCS 2011 X.C Carnage!</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user1818894">Joe Bowman</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>
    Lower your seat!

  143. #143
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    electrik: Please, 95% of the techy people wearing clipless out there for the "uber-performance" are putting lipstick on a pig. If you can pedal your butt off with flats you might actually be justified in touting clipless as really upping your game in an XC competition.

    Many of us "graduated" beyond flats (we all started on flats anyway), but you make it sound like we don't deserve the benefit of clipless. Again, remember that you are arguing with experienced riders and racers who are on clipless because they provide an advantage, not because clipless makes them look cool.
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  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    Clipless people should quit the parking lot proselytization.
    Totally, internet forum proselytization is far more effective. "SOME MORE REASONS TO GET OUT OF CLIPS......BECAUSE JESUS LOVES FLATS"

    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    Quite possibly the root of this shoe fetishism begins in the post-patriarchy(?) home. It's clear to me that more shiny shoes won't fix a gaping hole in fundamental skills as a result of poor investment in the basics. Though I can see how one might think that it's all about the shiny shoes without any male role models.
    So in the original article when the guy basically shilled for FiveTen shoes and said that riding them on flat pedals was a necessity, that doesn't qualify as shoe-fetishism? SPD shoes don't have enough sole for you? You aren't lacking in fundamental skills if you need to 'cheat' and wear really sticky shoes to ride properly? Just curious. (feel free to construe that comment in a homophobic manner and use it against me later on)


    Also just as an aside....I can remember definitively the moment I decided I NEEDED to own clipless pedals. I was attempting to walk up a really steep muddy hill with my cousin in the winter of 1995 snd my Hi-Tec shoes were sliding back double the distance of every step I took. The walking traction afforded by aggressive, stiff-soled SPD shoes is 2nd to none. (except maybe on wet rock, where they are merely adequate)

  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by veteran_youth
    Totally, internet forum proselytization is far more effective. "SOME MORE REASONS TO GET OUT OF CLIPS......BECAUSE JESUS LOVES FLATS"



    I have ridden with Jesus. The most he would ask is that you periodically foot massage, and buffed to a glossy shine.

  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by veteran_youth
    "SOME MORE REASONS TO GET OUT OF CLIPS......BECAUSE JESUS LOVES FLATS"
    Lady Gaga says we should accept everyone for who they are. I heard she rides both ways!

    <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/wV1FrqwZyKw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious
    electrik: Please, 95% of the techy people wearing clipless out there for the "uber-performance" are putting lipstick on a pig. If you can pedal your butt off with flats you might actually be justified in touting clipless as really upping your game in an XC competition.

    Many of us "graduated" beyond flats (we all started on flats anyway), but you make it sound like we don't deserve the benefit of clipless. Again, remember that you are arguing with experienced riders and racers who are on clipless because they provide an advantage, not because clipless makes them look cool.
    Well, this idea of graduation is a part of the problem here. If anything I guess you have to look different than an amateur, which is another reason i think people get clips asap.

  148. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by veteran_youth
    Totally, internet forum proselytization is far more effective. "SOME MORE REASONS TO GET OUT OF CLIPS......BECAUSE JESUS LOVES FLATS"



    So in the original article when the guy basically shilled for FiveTen shoes and said that riding them on flat pedals was a necessity, that doesn't qualify as shoe-fetishism? SPD shoes don't have enough sole for you? You aren't lacking in fundamental skills if you need to 'cheat' and wear really sticky shoes to ride properly? Just curious. (feel free to construe that comment in a homophobic manner and use it against me later on)


    Also just as an aside....I can remember definitively the moment I decided I NEEDED to own clipless pedals. I was attempting to walk up a really steep muddy hill with my cousin in the winter of 1995 snd my Hi-Tec shoes were sliding back double the distance of every step I took. The walking traction afforded by aggressive, stiff-soled SPD shoes is 2nd to none. (except maybe on wet rock, where they are merely adequate)
    I'm not the same person who wrote that article, it isn't my idea that you must ride flats. Otherwise i would be as guilty as those clipless guys. You can use whichever equipment suits you. What offends me is when some techy guy goes on about why I need clipless shoes. Try wearing platforms at a race sometime and see how long it takes for somebody to start asking questions about your shoes. This is why i think XC guys have a shoe fetish. If you tell them that clipless might only make a rider 5% more efficient - it's on(like donkey kong). That is why i find it funny that simply suggesting the opposite of what they're proselytizing to you provokes such negativity. A bit fanatical, perhaps, but when somebody is in the social majority they always are a bit too confident to stick rigidly to the truth.

    Also, as my aside, most of the shoe accidents i have seen involved spd and rocks/roots. It was UGLY, hard plastic sole + emergency unclipping in rock garden = awful. I can tell you the exact time i decided i would try clipless. I had just purchased a new bicycle and it came with spd, so i figured now i'm in the hole for these damn pedals... might as well buy a shoe and see what all these people are raving about. They do work better than toe-straps, those things are bear traps.

  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    I have ridden with Jesus. The most he would ask is that you periodically foot massage, and buffed to a glossy shine.
    I wonder, What Would Jesus Do if asked.



    Think he has the same policy on pedals?

  150. #150
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    electrik: If anything I guess you have to look different than an amateur ...

    Well, maybe you are referring to novices who rush into clipless and maybe there you have a point. But many of the posters here cannot possibly be considered novices after all the riding, training and racing they do! But we are all amateurs anyway.
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  151. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious
    electrik: If anything I guess you have to look different than an amateur ...

    Well, maybe you are referring to novices who rush into clipless and maybe there you have a point. But many of the posters here cannot possibly be considered novices after all the riding, training and racing they do! But we are all amateurs anyway.
    but in some ways you are novices. i've seen how some of you ride. there in lies the
    conundrum. progression in one area, no progression in another...
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  152. #152
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    4 pages of the same arguments over and over again and there are 2 other threads about the exact same thing?!

    Agree to disagree already and go ride your bikes!

  153. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    but in some ways you are novices. i've seen how some of you ride. there in lies the
    conundrum. progression in one area, no progression in another...
    Why don't you just come right out and say it; anyone who can't ride Hilton Falls on a rigid bike with flat pedals and no dabs needs to get better at riding before thinking about pedal choices? Don't be so wishy-washy, just say what you really mean.

  154. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious
    electrik: If anything I guess you have to look different than an amateur ...

    Well, maybe you are referring to novices who rush into clipless and maybe there you have a point. But many of the posters here cannot possibly be considered novices after all the riding, training and racing they do! But we are all amateurs anyway.
    Good attitude. Yes, I am referring to people who just started out trying to emulate in order to fit in at the cost of their enjoyment of the sport. Some people here have spent a lot of time on bicycles, more than me even, but the old maxim is never forget your beginners attitude. To a few vocal experienced people that idea is disgusting, but it is a key to avoiding becoming a total "techie".

  155. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius
    Why don't you just come right out and say it; anyone who can't ride Hilton Falls on a rigid bike with flat pedals and no dabs needs to get better at riding before thinking about pedal choices? Don't be so wishy-washy, just say what you really mean.
    i think this is pretty clear

    "progression in one area, no progression in another..."

    rigid bike you say? crap, i might as drive a model t...
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  156. #156
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    Well, this idea of graduation is a part of the problem here. If anything I guess you have to look different than an amateur, which is another reason i think people get clips asap.
    Clips have the following advantages over platforms:

    - A direct connection to the bike, making it tougher to have your foot knocked off the pedal by rough terrain, opening up new ways to use body english to control the bike, etc
    - The same placement of the pedal axle relative to the foot, every time
    - The ability to use a stiffer soled shoe with a corresponding power transfer advantage
    - The ability to pull up on the pedal, not just push down, with advantages to fatigue management and power production
    - In most cases, lighter than platforms

    And the following disadvantages:

    - A time delay involved in separating foot from pedal, which makes dabbing or bailing in the air more difficult
    - The potential of failing to unclip causing a tip-over fall

    Accordingly, unless you have a need to be able to separate your feet from your pedals in the air (eg dirtjump/freeride guys who do feet-off tricks) clips offer clear performance and comfort advantages. These advantages are real, and are based on engineering and science fact. All else being equal, clips are faster than platforms.

    That being said, comfort and mental issues do play a part in individual performance. If you do not like riding clipped in; if being clipped in forces you to be tentative and nervous because you are not comfortable clipping out in a hurry, then you, as an individual, will be faster on platforms than on clips. The science states that you'd be faster yet if you learn to overcome your fears and adapt to clips - but nobody is holding a gun to your head, and if you don't want to learn, feel free.

    But don't expect those who have made the effort to learn to ride clipped in and who are reaping the benefits to agree with you when you start going on about clips being fashion accessories adopted by posers. We don't have to agree with your sour grapes.

    DG

  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by RecceDG
    Clips have the following advantages over platforms:

    - A direct connection to the bike, making it tougher to have your foot knocked off the pedal by rough terrain, opening up new ways to use body english to control the bike, etc

    actually it impedes body english, otherwise trials rider would all be rocking clips

    - The same placement of the pedal axle relative to the foot, every time

    see above

    - The ability to use a stiffer soled shoe with a corresponding power transfer advantage

    you can say the shoe is trying to be a pedal

    - The ability to pull up on the pedal, not just push down, with advantages to fatigue management and power production

    it also hides weaker core strength

    - In most cases, lighter than platforms

    in most case weaker and more prone to failure

    And the following disadvantages:

    - A time delay involved in separating foot from pedal, which makes dabbing or bailing in the air more difficult
    - The potential of failing to unclip causing a tip-over fall

    -more prone to failure with no release
    -greater costs involved
    -greater maintenance
    -poor adverse condition performance


    Accordingly, unless you have a need to be able to separate your feet from your pedals in the air (eg dirtjump/freeride guys who do feet-off tricks) clips offer clear performance and comfort advantages. These advantages are real, and are based on engineering and science fact. All else being equal, clips are faster than platforms.

    on a road perhaps? though trails are starting to reflect that...

    That being said, comfort and mental issues do play a part in individual performance. If you do not like riding clipped in; if being clipped in forces you to be tentative and nervous because you are not comfortable clipping out in a hurry, then you, as an individual, will be faster on platforms than on clips. The science states that you'd be faster yet if you learn to overcome your fears and adapt to clips - but nobody is holding a gun to your head, and if you don't want to learn, feel free.

    the same arguement can be said that your abilities and progression are being held hostage by clips. when trails get more technical/progressive clip riders get more tentative and nervous. i would even say clips now are a throw back in technology, limiting the terrain and trail design. as a matter of fact one camps bikes are starting to look more and more like road bikes, thus embracing the limitations that end of the spectrum entails.


    But don't expect those who have made the effort to learn to ride clipped in and who are reaping the benefits to agree with you when you start going on about clips being fashion accessories adopted by posers. We don't have to agree with your sour grapes.

    pot calling the kettle black

    DG
    i would like to hear how clips have progressed the sport of mountain biking... suspension yes, geomentry yes, materials yes, brakes yes, platforms yes, clips?

    see vid below:

    <iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/20601448" width="400" height="225" frameborder="0"></iframe><p><a href="http://vimeo.com/20601448">A Hill in Spain</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user1089639">chris akrigg</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>
    Last edited by singlesprocket; 03-20-2011 at 06:45 AM.
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  158. #158
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    - A direct connection to the bike, making it tougher to have your foot knocked off the pedal by rough terrain, opening up new ways to use body english to control the bike, etc

    actually it impedes body english, otherwise trials rider would all be rocking clips
    Talk about a dishonest argument. Trials riders don't use clips for the same reason as dirt jumpers and other crazy riders we see in videos; there's a need for them to bail off their bikes on zero notice.

    In terms of progressing the sport, how many people here even have the potential to ride at the level depicted in that video? Oh yeah, that's right, about same number as would make it to the Olympics. We are not discussing clips in the context of those one in a million riders who are pushing the limits of the sport, we are talking about average riders give or take a standard deviation or two, not the guys on the far right of the curve. What Darren Berrecloth, Danny MacAskill and the rest of those guys do is irrelevent to the discussion. Get this straight, none of us here are progressing the sport, we're just doing our thing and taking part in the sport.

  159. #159
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    I can't believe you guys hogged this thread in the Eastern Canada forum, it's much too precious to be regional.

    All I really got out of the article that this discussion originated from is that I would have to agree, the thought of running a marathon sounds hard.

  160. #160
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    I'm sorry, I've only read the first and last page of this thread (seems like they're a lot the same), but have found a valid point against platforms! They are wider than clipless and cause you to hit obstacles that you would miss with clipless.

    My cottage single speed bike has platform pedals, everything else I own has clipless, Last year I was riding some rough doubletrack, my brain miscalculated the width of the platforms, I hit a large rock with the right pedal, catapulted over the bars after bouncing off them, and wore a bar tattoo on my chest for a week or so.

    Therefore, I have concluded that clipless are less dangerous than platforms.

  161. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by RecceDG
    But don't expect those who have made the effort to learn to ride clipped in
    Both pedal types have a learning curve. Clipless are the easier method to learn. Simply it takes less mental effort to learn it. Flat pedals take more time to master. It's like Skiing vs Snoboarding.. skiing is harder to learn then snowboarding . People will always choose the easier of the two. Our brain encourages this as it makes us feel good when we choose the method that requires less effort. In this case that being clipless.

  162. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by langford
    I'm sorry, I've only read the first and last page of this thread (seems like they're a lot the same), but have found a valid point against platforms! They are wider than clipless and cause you to hit obstacles that you would miss with clipless.

    My cottage single speed bike has platform pedals, everything else I own has clipless, Last year I was riding some rough doubletrack, my brain miscalculated the width of the platforms, I hit a large rock with the right pedal, catapulted over the bars after bouncing off them, and wore a bar tattoo on my chest for a week or so.

    Therefore, I have concluded that clipless are less dangerous than platforms.
    what about clipless platforms?
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  163. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius
    Talk about a dishonest argument. Trials riders don't use clips for the same reason as dirt jumpers and other crazy riders we see in videos; there's a need for them to bail off their bikes on zero notice.

    In terms of progressing the sport, how many people here even have the potential to ride at the level depicted in that video? Oh yeah, that's right, about same number as would make it to the Olympics. We are not discussing clips in the context of those one in a million riders who are pushing the limits of the sport, we are talking about average riders give or take a standard deviation or two, not the guys on the far right of the curve. What Darren Berrecloth, Danny MacAskill and the rest of those guys do is irrelevent to the discussion. Get this straight, none of us here are progressing the sport, we're just doing our thing and taking part in the sport.
    lol, thought you said they use platforms to do tricks

    actually the trails are progressing in alot of areas, you just probally don't ride in these areas. it is also the future of our sport with the kids getting involved

    ok here is a vid again of ordinary riders...

    <iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/21034147" width="400" height="225" frameborder="0"></iframe><p><a href="http://vimeo.com/21034147">BUCS 2011 X.C Carnage!</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user1818894">Joe Bowman</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>
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  164. #164
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    how 'bout this?


  165. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    actually the trails are progressing in alot of areas, you just probally don't ride in these areas. it is also the future of our sport with the kids getting involved


    Boy are you a DAMF, you have no idea where I've been and where I've ridden, hell, you don't even know who I am and yet you presume to know where and how I ride.

  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    ok here is a vid again of ordinary riders...

    <iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/21034147" width="400" height="225" frameborder="0"></iframe><p><a href="http://vimeo.com/21034147">BUCS 2011 X.C Carnage!</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user1818894">Joe Bowman</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>
    Awesome video. Here's another one to add to the collection below. I like this game - thanks!

    <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0Fb5a066vtI?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  167. #167
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    I love the Born Again type mentality... so easy to mess with.

  168. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius


    Boy are you a DAMF, you have no idea where I've been and where I've ridden, hell, you don't even know who I am and yet you presume to know where and how I ride.
    now now don't get your knickers in a knot... i'm just going by your posts here...
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  169. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    I love the Born Again type mentality... so easy to mess with.
    oh yeah, your one to talk
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  170. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by RecceDG
    Clips have the following advantages over platforms:

    - A direct connection to the bike, making it tougher to have your foot knocked off the pedal by rough terrain, opening up new ways to use body english to control the bike, etc
    - The same placement of the pedal axle relative to the foot, every time
    - The ability to use a stiffer soled shoe with a corresponding power transfer advantage
    - The ability to pull up on the pedal, not just push down, with advantages to fatigue management and power production
    - In most cases, lighter than platforms

    And the following disadvantages:

    - A time delay involved in separating foot from pedal, which makes dabbing or bailing in the air more difficult
    - The potential of failing to unclip causing a tip-over fall

    Accordingly, unless you have a need to be able to separate your feet from your pedals in the air (eg dirtjump/freeride guys who do feet-off tricks) clips offer clear performance and comfort advantages. These advantages are real, and are based on engineering and science fact. All else being equal, clips are faster than platforms.

    That being said, comfort and mental issues do play a part in individual performance. If you do not like riding clipped in; if being clipped in forces you to be tentative and nervous because you are not comfortable clipping out in a hurry, then you, as an individual, will be faster on platforms than on clips. The science states that you'd be faster yet if you learn to overcome your fears and adapt to clips - but nobody is holding a gun to your head, and if you don't want to learn, feel free.

    But don't expect those who have made the effort to learn to ride clipped in and who are reaping the benefits to agree with you when you start going on about clips being fashion accessories adopted by posers. We don't have to agree with your sour grapes.

    DG
    That was some fine dancing around the issue, which is that labeling clipless as better is basically your own opinion. I have heard the same solid "scientific" facts about why 29r wheels are always faster. This techy crap really gets old fast.

    Clipless are not only fashion accesories, but primarily objects of fetish by XC racers. These are not the same things.

    Finally, it is not sour grapes. First you would have to demonstrate i wanted something you claim to have. What do you know about me? Maybe i ride clipless a lot, maybe i just don't care about shoes i grab on the way out.

  171. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    now now don't get your knickers in a knot... i'm just going by your posts here...
    And you think that 4 months worth of posts on this board at an average of well under a post a day are in any way representative of my 20 or so years in the sport? Did it occur to you to ask and clarify a few things before making unfounded assumptions?

  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius
    And you think that 4 months worth of posts on this board at an average of well under a post a day are in any way representative of my 20 or so years in the sport? Did it occur to you to ask and clarify a few things before making unfounded assumptions?
    Apparently on this forum the official authorized term (according to your current partner in conversation Singlesprocket) is "jumping to conclusions".

  173. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius
    And you think that 4 months worth of posts on this board at an average of well under a post a day are in any way representative of my 20 or so years in the sport? Did it occur to you to ask and clarify a few things before making unfounded assumptions?
    i never mentioned your board stats, you brought that up. good for you for staying in mtbing sport for 20 years. if you gained any wisdom in those twenty years i can't say.
    if you want to enlighten me please feel free to go ahead.
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  174. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Apparently on this forum the official authorized term (according to your current partner in conversation Singlesprocket) is "jumping to conclusions".
    what are you talking about, please explain this conclusion i jumped to?
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  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    what are you talking about, please explain this conclusion i jumped to?
    In response to Aerius you said;

    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    actually the trails are progressing in alot of areas, you just probally don't ride in these areas.

  176. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    if you gained any wisdom in those twenty years i can't say.
    if you want to enlighten me please feel free to go ahead.
    Of course you can't say, you're too busily engaged in rhetoric and pointless argumentation, and doing a pretty poor job of it I might add.

    Let's get this started. You claim that I probably haven't ridden in any of the areas where in your words, "trails are progressing a lot". Let's see if this is true. You tell me where these areas are, describe them in detail and/or put pictures or videos of the trails in question. I'll tell you if I've ridden those trails or something similar to them. Then we work through everything else in a similar manner until it's absolutely clear.

    Or we can continue talking past each other, your choice.

  177. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    actually the trails are progressing in alot of areas, you just probally don't ride in these areas. it is also the future of our sport with the kids getting involved
    LOL you make funny.

  178. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    on a road perhaps? though trails are starting to reflect that...


    Bloody road rider on non progressive road like trails.

  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    what about clipless platforms?
    The ultimate in danger!

    As a matter of fact, I do have a set of these, haven't ridden with them enough to hurt myself yet. It's only a matter of time!

  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk
    LOL you make funny.
    everytime i go to joyride it is packed with kids... all on platforms might i add.
    my friends where looking after their niece and nephew on the weekend, we took
    them to the bike shop and the bike they wanted the most is the dirtjumper.
    we also took them down to do some cleanup work on the jump line. they loved
    it and wanted to build there own jump. my nephew in timmins builds little jumps
    with his friends and has great time showing how he can ride... yup i find it funny
    the mindset that fails to adapt to the future
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  181. #181
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    Sure they are going to be on flats, they are kids after all.

    You know what they'll likely do by the time they become teens? Stop riding bikes.

  182. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk
    Sure they are going to be on flats, they are kids after all.

    You know what they'll likely do by the time they become teens? Stop riding bikes.
    actually there are a few studies that can be used as a model to predict this. the study showed that kids/teens who where actively involved in organized sports had a greater
    likelihood of not continuing that activity into adulthood. where as a kid/teen who did the
    sport activity just for the fun of it had a greater likelihood of continuing that activity into adulthood...

    though this studies do hold opposite to current conventions, data is starting to come out leaning to the above model. overall there has been a drop in organized sports among youth thus the importance of getting kids involved and giving them the tools to stay involved as they move into adulthood.

    http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quoti...80603a-eng.htm

    now how does this relate to mtbing? i have a pretty good idea, but it will be interesting what other people think.
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  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    everytime i go to joyride it is packed with kids... all on platforms might i add.
    my friends where looking after their niece and nephew on the weekend, we took
    them to the bike shop and the bike they wanted the most is the dirtjumper.
    we also took them down to do some cleanup work on the jump line. they loved
    it and wanted to build there own jump. my nephew in timmins builds little jumps
    with his friends and has great time showing how he can ride... yup i find it funny
    the mindset that fails to adapt to the future
    Haha, zing!

    XC racing is on the wane as of late. Despite a few insular(ding ding ding) diehards saying otherwise. It's probably not about the shoes only though, there are other issues in the XC community which attract the anti-social sort. That is a whole other thread!

    Anyways, yes, those moronic kids don't understand anything, they need to get locked into clipless so they can clear the fire-road hill 5% faster and those scared-y cat adults using flats need to "grow up" ...

  184. #184
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    Who doesn't build jumps when they're a kid? I did it and that was like thirty years ago. How does that have anything to do with this marvelous "future" you're telling us about?

    My nieces' bikes have tassels on them (along with platform pedals, ). Is that a predictor of the future too?

    Oh, and electrik, if you're so amazingly social, how come you haven't posted on the picture thread yet?
    Please enjoy seeing this terrible collection of me - something wonderful is about to happy.

  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk
    Sure they are going to be on flats, they are kids after all.

    You know what they'll likely do by the time they become teens? Stop riding bikes.
    A lot of them ride their DJ bikes (now more of them are riding BMX) untill they turn 16 and get a licence, then they don't ride nearly as much, Yes lots of them still ride bikes but just much less.

    I was definitely one of those kids who rode their bike all the time then got into dirt jumping and "north shore" riding, rode flats all the time. Now I got into racing and ride clips, I ride Downhill on Flats, as soon as I get my own downhill bike it will get clipless platforms, because that is what I am use to now. If I ever get the opportunity to get a street (DJ) bike again I will go back to using flats on that bike.
    Different tools for different jobs.
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  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by garage monster
    Who doesn't build jumps when they're a kid? I did it and that was like thirty years ago. How does that have anything to do with this marvelous "future" you're telling us about?

    My nieces' bikes have tassels on them (along with platform pedals, ). Is that a predictor of the future too?

    Oh, and electrik, if you're so amazingly social, how come you haven't posted on the picture thread yet?
    Hey, i'm not saying everybody has the same type of passion or that it can't change. Sometimes certain types of event attract people with interests which are different than yours(i'm guessing) or mine. Sorry to be vague, but i'm not going to drag us off topic!

    I'm claiming to not be anti-social, not amazing social. My lack of personal photographs isn't an attempt to be anti-social either - the internet is a big place and i certainly wouldn't try to voice my strange opinion so vocally because their are a lot of block-heads out there which i would have to deal with when i am enjoying a ride. So, perhaps i've traded a bit of anonymity for the chance to write what i think without the constant upbraiding it would entail otherwise.

  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    their are a lot of block-heads out there
    Yes there are.

  188. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk
    Yes there are.
    Glad you agree!

  189. #189
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    <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/iuWks3wmRtM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  190. #190
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    i would like to hear how clips have progressed the sport of mountain biking... suspension yes, geomentry yes, materials yes, brakes yes, platforms yes, clips?
    I don't see how you can state that platforms "progressed" the sport, seeing as how, before clips were invented, they were just called "pedals".

    I have a set of Shimano DX platform pedals from my BMX bike circa 1984 that are for all intents and purposes identical to the pedals I see being used by the kids at Joyride.

    In fact, about half of them appear to be direct Chinese copies of the original DX platform shape. Hard to call "effectively unchanged for 30 years" progress now, is it?

    But I can firmly state that switching to clips helped me to progress:

    The big advantage to platforms is, as I stated earlier, the ability to bail out in a hurry, including in the air. Well, that ability to bail out early encourages bailing out when the going gets a little rough.

    But with the clips, bailing out is harder - to the point that, I couple of times I went to bail, didn't unclip in time, and found myself in/on the obstacle and committed. And amazingly, rode it out.

    I started discovering that I could ride stuff that was WAY gnarlier than I had ever suspected - because I couldn't bail out to wimp out. And on top of that, I started learning techniques, using the clips, to not just clear the gnar, but actually carry speed though the gnar. Stuff that, previously, had been "whoa, can't ride that, bail out!" turned into "Attack!".

    And that, my friend, is true progress.

    DG

  191. #191
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    ^^^^ This is where the saying "Commit or eat ****" comes from.

  192. #192
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    Since this was brought up earlier. And it needs a little clarification.

    In regards to observed trials or simply trials in the flat pedals are better argument. This activity does not really count.

    In trials a rider has a taped and measured section that they must ride with the ultimate goal being to clean it. This will have various challenges that the rider will need to get over with the goal of not dabbing - foot on the ground. Now if the rider while trying to clear the obstacle has to dab it makes it much easier to get the foot back on the pedal. Also if the rider is forced to make a tactical dab meaning that they realize they must put their foot down to avoid a fail they can do so quickly.

    I spent 2 years riding trials.. not very well as I have lousy balance. So to me the whole clipless is better and forces one to go hard is really bull pucky. It is really a concious mental choice really to do so nothing more. It doesn't matter really whether it's clips of flat pedals ....it's what you decide in your brain that matters that will work for you.

    Incidentally the term "cleaned it" comes from observed trials meaning you rode the technical section with no foot down.

  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil
    Since this was brought up earlier. And it needs a little clarification.

    In regards to observed trials or simply trials in the flat pedals are better argument. This activity does not really count.
    snip the rest
    ok now trials doesn't count as well as dirt jumping, park riding, freeriding, downhilling without clips and so on. lets look what progressed the sport in the past 10 years, lets look ahead... better yet, lets look away

    i find that riders that stay fixated on clips reach a certain plateau in their riding abilities.
    this is clearly demonstrated in this thread. denial and self delusion is part of this and once again the article mentions this.
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  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrastories
    A lot of them ride their DJ bikes (now more of them are riding BMX) untill they turn 16 and get a licence, then they don't ride nearly as much, Yes lots of them still ride bikes but just much less.

    I was definitely one of those kids who rode their bike all the time then got into dirt jumping and "north shore" riding, rode flats all the time. Now I got into racing and ride clips, I ride Downhill on Flats, as soon as I get my own downhill bike it will get clipless platforms, because that is what I am use to now. If I ever get the opportunity to get a street (DJ) bike again I will go back to using flats on that bike.
    Different tools for different jobs.
    i find clips a hold back when downhilling and when things get dry and dusty even the times have problems releasing. clips also numb out your foot when downhilling. if leave your shoe loose your foot slides forward. if you tighten your shoe you numb out your foot.
    i also find a few people breaking toes in clips while downhilling. why this happens i don't know, perhaps it is the postion your foot gets in when you release.
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  195. #195
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    Hey singlesprocket, I'm still waiting for an answer to my previous post.

  196. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrik
    I'm claiming to not be anti-social, not amazing social. My lack of personal photographs isn't an attempt to be anti-social either - the internet is a big place and i certainly wouldn't try to voice my strange opinion so vocally because their are a lot of block-heads out there which i would have to deal with when i am enjoying a ride. So, perhaps i've traded a bit of anonymity for the chance to write what i think without the constant upbraiding it would entail otherwise.
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  197. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    ok now trials doesn't count as well as dirt jumping, park riding, freeriding, downhilling without clips and so on. lets look what progressed the sport in the past 10 years, lets look ahead... better yet, lets look away

    Obviously the whole thing went over your head.

    Let's look at this from a coaches perspective. That being one must look at the requirements of the activity and the main focus of said article. That focus being pedaling... which if one looks at off road cycling. The primary disciplines would be XC, DH, maybe 4x, and cyclocross.

    Trials and Dirt jumping are not pedaling focused discipline. In dirt jumping being clipped in is a hinderance in bailing as well as aeriel manuveurs. While in trials as mentioned the requirements are again different.. which unless one has actually spent time learning to ride trials will never understand.

  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    ok now trials doesn't count as well as dirt jumping, park riding, freeriding, downhilling without clips and so on.
    who said they don't count? All can be done with clipless. The only one you won't be progressing in is dirt jumping, and that is just the foot off tricks, plenty of other tricks you could learn.

    i find that riders that stay fixated on clips reach a certain plateau in their riding abilities. this is clearly demonstrated in this thread. denial and self delusion is part of this and once again the article mentions this.
    Well I find this to be complete BS. I drank that cool aid for a couple seasons and switched to flats for shuttling, park, freeride and dj. And it did not aid in my progression, if anything it made me lazy. It was too easy to hop off the bike, too easy to not commit.

    Pedals were no factor in MY plateau. Risk of serious season ending injuries on BIG moves is what played the largest factor in my personal plateau. I'd rather spend a whole season riding and ride at a high level vs ride some of the highest level moves and potentially miss parts of a bike and ski season.

    As to the self delusion comment you need to expand your bubble from the "us vs them" of spandex xc vs baggy dh freeride rhetoric. Ontario riding is kinda segmented and it's a shame. Other areas it's just riding, there are guys that rip at XC and DH without and attitude towards either segment.

  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk
    Well I find this to be complete BS. I drank that cool aid for a couple seasons and switched to flats for shuttling, park, freeride and dj. And it did not aid in my progression, if anything it made me lazy. It was too easy to hop off the bike, too easy to not commit.
    I believe this also tends to be based on the person. Some will find flats make them lazy while the next rider will say the same about clipless.

    Quote Originally Posted by shirk

    Pedals were no factor in MY plateau. Risk of serious season ending injuries on BIG moves is what played the largest factor in my personal plateau. I'd rather spend a whole season riding and ride at a high level vs ride some of the highest level moves and potentially miss parts of a bike and ski season.
    It's true. After awhile one does start not worrying about whether they nailed the skinny, drop, or whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by shirk
    As to the self delusion comment you need to expand your bubble from the "us vs them" of spandex xc vs baggy dh freeride rhetoric. Ontario riding is kinda segmented and it's a shame. Other areas it's just riding, there are guys that rip at XC and DH without and attitude towards either segment.
    Though it is fun to beat guy's on clipless while riding flats.

  200. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    ok now trials doesn't count as well as dirt jumping, park riding, freeriding, downhilling without clips and so on. lets look what progressed the sport in the past 10 years, lets look ahead... better yet, lets look away

    i find that riders that stay fixated on clips reach a certain plateau in their riding abilities.
    this is clearly demonstrated in this thread. denial and self delusion is part of this and once again the article mentions this.
    Hmmmmm, let's look at how the sport has progressed in the last 10 years.....lift accessed resort style riding? Red Bull sponsorship? 720 triple-tailwhips over 70 foot doubles? North Shore fetishism?

    And the growth numbers STILL aren't as high as they were in the early 90's boom of thumbshifters, rigid bikes, and neon lycra?

    So let's look ahead to.....I don't know? How exactly are flat pedals going to save the sport?

    Could it be maybe, JUST MAYBE that the sports marketers are out of touch with the demographic that is most likely to shell out a few Gs on cycling every year (30-40 something males) having given them up so easily to the road after Lance fever hit slightly over a decade ago? A demographic that seems to comprise a decent chunk of the riders that you are dismissing so easily in your arguments in this thread? Those that will 'never get it', who don't have enough soul, whose progression in the sport 'plateaus' because they are satisfied with the benefits that mountain biking as they know it brings to their lives and don't feel the need to chase the feature dragon?

    Yeah let's just tell them all that they are doing it wrong.

    You keep on playing the martyr while doing the devil's work. Denial and self-delusion, right? Much like Electrik classifying your typical clipless rider as "anti-social".

    These same riders and board members just got a few dozen participants out for a group ride just this past weekend. Oh yeah that's right....an open invitation was posted on this very forum. Must be because they are so elitist and insular.

    BTW who did you guys ride with this past weekend?

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