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  1. #1
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    Soapbox time

    So I went to Hardwood Hills this past Saturday to check out the Nationals course. I found the course to be much harder than the Sir Sam course, with many steep climbs that made it rather hard on single speed. I can live with that. But I was stunned to see them add a second gap jump to the course.

    WTF? Do they expect 50 and 60 year old sport riders to take air like X Games wannabe fools? I am getting a bit sick and tired of the attempt to introduce "air" into XC racing. I was never comfortable taking air and I did some experimenting during my years of downhill skiing. I certainly am not comfortable doing it on a bike. But the worst part is the huge penalty given for bypassing the jumps. For people with a solid background in taking air, it is a gift. Maybe the organizers can introduce wheelies or riding on skinnies and penalize those who cannot do them.

    Sorry but it had to be said. I sign up to these things to race XC, not to do any cheap stunts.
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    Counterpoint: since when does XC mean "my wheels must stay on the ground at all times"? Also, have you seen a world cup XC course lately? How are people going to learn to ride like Nino Schurter without courses which provide for air time? As someone explained to me a while back when I was wondering why the elites were doing shorter & more laps at Hardwood than the expert riders, it's because they're making it more relevant and getting with the times, so to speak. Things seen at the World Cup level will trickle down to lower levels to prepare riders for competing at higher levels. Also, Joyride 150. If you spent 10% as much time there practicing jumps & drops as you do training your cardio, you'd be laughing at the jumps at Hardwood.

    And now I'm gonna have some fun. What's up with all the double track and fireroads on the XC course? It's like they're making it into road riding on dirt, this is not what mountain biking is about. I demand that they remove all doubletrack and fireroad sections and add more technical features, especially to the climbs. I signed up to race XC, not road ride on dirt. If I wanted to road ride, I'd get a 29er, I mean a road bike.

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    So do we have pics of the jumps?

    I will need them to cast judgement.
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    I haven't ridden the course yet.

    From other discussions, it almost sounds like this is only in for the elite race Saturday. It apparently wasn't in the expert race (but maybe a typo that it was in for the sport race). Heard people have been injured on it.

    I'm all for throwing in stuff like. I think it's super fun. I know with smaller one last year, it was the highlight of my lap. I think wheels off the ground is an element of mountain biking and certainly when I'm out riding, while it may not be a 'gap' per say, it's not uncommon to launch a drop and need to clear something before landing (aka not be able to roll it). As long as there is a ride around for everyone.

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    Wow that looks like fun. Hope they keep this for the Epic 8 in Aug!
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    Soapbox time

    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Counterpoint: since when does XC mean "my wheels must stay on the ground at all times"? Also, have you seen a world cup XC course lately? How are people going to learn to ride like Nino Schurter without courses which provide for air time? As someone explained to me a while back when I was wondering why the elites were doing shorter & more laps at Hardwood than the expert riders, it's because they're making it more relevant and getting with the times, so to speak. Things seen at the World Cup level will trickle down to lower levels to prepare riders for competing at higher levels. Also, Joyride 150. If you spent 10% as much time there practicing jumps & drops as you do training your cardio, you'd be laughing at the jumps at Hardwood.

    And now I'm gonna have some fun. What's up with all the double track and fireroads on the XC course? It's like they're making it into road riding on dirt, this is not what mountain biking is about. I demand that they remove all doubletrack and fireroad sections and add more technical features, especially to the climbs. I signed up to race XC, not road ride on dirt. If I wanted to road ride, I'd get a 29er, I mean a road bike.
    Did you really bring in a World Cup example to a discussion about Sport racing for people over 50? Can you really be that ridiculous in your attempt to make yourself relevant?


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  7. #7
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    My tires burped looking at that. Between a hard tail, tubeless, and not being designed for flying, the mind says I would attempt the jump for sure but I'm not quite sure that my bike wouldn't explode in a ball of flames on landing, followed shortly by my massive bulk.

    Though I'm sure that it would be to many cheers of the inevitable pile of spectators that will be there hoping for it to happen.

    Also as a Solo rider for 8H events, for me its about the distance and fitness, so cardio and strength training take a precedence over extreme skills as that's what the courses usually demand from me. I'm not opposed to the log overs, rock gardens and what not, in fact I love me some rock and roots, but those are available in large quantity for me to practice on.

    Factor in having kids and limited time to travel and train, Joyride isn't my first option, but the local trail system is because, its free, and doesn't require me having to drive an hour or so to get to it.

    I admire people's abilities, and if this is something you could do blindfolded then I say this without any hint of sarcasm, that's awesome and honestly good for you, I envy your skill set.

    As for being in an 8H event? I'm going to say most likely not. With how banged up and injured people get on a course that's already fairly low key from a technical standpoint, having this drop in there is tempting fate.

  8. #8
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    Soapbox time

    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post
    I haven't ridden the course yet.

    From other discussions, it almost sounds like this is only in for the elite race Saturday. It apparently wasn't in the expert race (but maybe a typo that it was in for the sport race). Heard people have been injured on it.

    I'm all for throwing in stuff like. I think it's super fun. I know with smaller one last year, it was the highlight of my lap. I think wheels off the ground is an element of mountain biking and certainly when I'm out riding, while it may not be a 'gap' per say, it's not uncommon to launch a drop and need to clear something before landing (aka not be able to roll it). As long as there is a ride around for everyone.

    There is definitely a ride-around for both jumps. But the penalty is significant on both. I question this practice. Rewarding somebody for little more than a cheap stunt seems wrong in the context of XC.

    Having said that, I will do the second jump. It is less scary. I did it last year too.


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    Soapbox time

    Quote Originally Posted by pucked up View Post
    Wow that looks like fun. Hope they keep this for the Epic 8 in Aug!
    Let's get real here. Do you understand the liability in a citizen race where the majority won't even pre-ride? This would come as a complete surprise, with a spectacular crash.


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    Quote Originally Posted by serious View Post
    Let's get real here. Do you understand the liability in a citizen race where the majority won't even pre-ride? This would come as a complete surprise, with a spectacular crash.


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    You tell me. Should be no different than the Nationals. The by pass to the jump will still be there and the organizers can educate participant's of the jumps via website and at the captians meeting. It may even get more people out to pre ride the damn course.

    Heck it may even increase riders for the race. A lot of people I know would enter just for the jumps! There is a reason why the X-Games are so popular and tbat XC MTB is in a decline. What worked 10-15yrs ago when Canada was on top of MTBing with Green and Sydor doesn't work now with most young people. So hats off to the organizers for shaking things up.
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    Ive seen a video of some one taking the gap, and it looked harmless. The pic on the other hand looks pretty tough. I will have to wait and see for myself. But I doubt that will be in sport.

    On the other hand, this isba National Finals course. This is the top of the tops for xc racing. I might be dissapointed if it wasnt hard. We need to be prepairing this riders for what is really out there on the world cup circut.

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    Of course it is harmless when you see somebody jump it. I am the first to admit that compared to what they do at the X Games, this is an embarrassing, cheap stunt. It is like comparing a 50 year old Sport racer to a World Cup racers.

    And with all due respect, us sport racers are not competing in the nationals. Only expert/elite get that honour. Risking our necks for a cheap stunt seems a bit absurd to me.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by pucked up View Post
    You tell me. Should be no different than the Nationals. The by pass to the jump will still be there and the organizers can educate participant's of the jumps via website and at the captians meeting. It may even get more people out to pre ride the damn course.

    Heck it may even increase riders for the race. A lot of people I know would enter just for the jumps! There is a reason why the X-Games are so popular and tbat XC MTB is in a decline. What worked 10-15yrs ago when Canada was on top of MTBing with Green and Sydor doesn't work now with most young people. So hats off to the organizers for shaking things up.
    I have done many 8 hour solos. Trust me, a citizen race is not the place for gap jumps. Too many will look at it and say: "that looks like fun" and proceed to injure themselves.

    But the good news is that they don't have to enter an 8 hour race and pay $90 to do the jump.
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious View Post
    And with all due respect, us sport racers are not competing in the nationals. Only expert/elite get that honour. Risking our necks for a cheap stunt seems a bit absurd to me.
    Is it mandatory to hit the jump? No. Then take the time penalty and do the go-around. Or practice doing jumps until you're comfortable enough to air it.

    As someone lacking in fitness & cardio, maybe I should start complaining about how the climbs are too long and demand that the uphills be drastically shortened with technical sections added in their place. Or that I should have an EPO exemption. But that would be absurd, and damn near everyone would tell me to HTFU and train more.

    And you're a sport level racer, it's not like you're going to win anything big or qualify for the national team. You lose a couple places on the jumps because other better rounded riders had the skill to air it out and you didn't. Ok, fine. Again, you're a sport level racer, what's the big deal? You have nothing at stake other than a podium position to make you feel good. Does this sound harsh? Yes. But that's the truth whether you like it or not.

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    Yes, the alternate route sucks if you don't take the jump. Way longer and you lose all your speed. I couldn't get the courage up to try that gap and I'm not sure my six year old carbon scalpel can handle the landing without splitting in two!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Is it mandatory to hit the jump? No. Then take the time penalty and do the go-around. Or practice doing jumps until you're comfortable enough to air it.

    As someone lacking in fitness & cardio, maybe I should start complaining about how the climbs are too long and demand that the uphills be drastically shortened with technical sections added in their place. Or that I should have an EPO exemption. But that would be absurd, and damn near everyone would tell me to HTFU and train more.

    And you're a sport level racer, it's not like you're going to win anything big or qualify for the national team. You lose a couple places on the jumps because other better rounded riders had the skill to air it out and you didn't. Ok, fine. Again, you're a sport level racer, what's the big deal? You have nothing at stake other than a podium position to make you feel good. Does this sound harsh? Yes. But that's the truth whether you like it or not.
    +1... I'm not much of a racer, but maybe I would be if there was more stuff like this... As it stands, most of my race experience goes something like this: 1) get blown away on the double track 2) get stuck behind all those guys that just passed me on the singletrack. So, I could use something to level the playing field!

  17. #17
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    so true, we need more jumps. it is what the majority of people want. it's what makes a trail fun and popular.


    Quote Originally Posted by pucked up View Post
    You tell me. Should be no different than the Nationals. The by pass to the jump will still be there and the organizers can educate participant's of the jumps via website and at the captians meeting. It may even get more people out to pre ride the damn course.

    Heck it may even increase riders for the race. A lot of people I know would enter just for the jumps! There is a reason why the X-Games are so popular and tbat XC MTB is in a decline. What worked 10-15yrs ago when Canada was on top of MTBing with Green and Sydor doesn't work now with most young people. So hats off to the organizers for shaking things up.
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  18. #18
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    Meh. I'll just go practice the jump. That's why they have pre rides
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious View Post
    I have done many 8 hour solos. Trust me, a citizen race is not the place for gap jumps. Too many will look at it and say: "that looks like fun" and proceed to injure themselves.

    But the good news is that they don't have to enter an 8 hour race and pay $90 to do the jump.
    The jump may not be for most solo riders but there are a lot more team riders than solo. The good news is that the ones that will take the jump already have experience with getting air. Either from skateboarding or bmx which is where I came from and then transition to mountain biking. The bad news is that most kids now think MTB is an old man sport and will no way transition to it. So in a couple years time you can watch the 8hr and or the 24hr races die like the rest of the citizenship races due to lack of interest. I wonder what you'll complain about then?
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    This brings up the question of how we define XC. I'm sure in some places, maybe out West? cyclists would consider drops, log bridges as part of their normal XC ride. In other places riders would consider lots of rocks to be part of their XC ride e.g. Hilton Falls

    As the technical abilities of riders evolve over time, the organizers have to add more technical features to the course to reward the more rounded riders. The difficult part would be balancing between the two. e.g. do we design the course so it requires 75% cardio and 25% technical skills? or some other mix?

    IMO, as long as there is ride around it is ok. Myself, I would likely take the penalty of the ride around, but from a spectator perspective it makes the course a lot more interesting and fun to watch!

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    Good work Pulse Racing and Hardwood Hills. Nice to see new trails getting built and more variety being added to Simcoe County.
    Keep up the excellent effort.

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    Just a friendly reminder......you the whiners are aware that Hardwood is the course in one year for the Pan Am games. So like the course at the London Olympics there will be sections that are extremely challenging for everyone else like NiŮo Shurtner. So the real question is what is the plan for post Pan Ams after the games are all over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post
    I haven't ridden the course yet.

    From other discussions, it almost sounds like this is only in for the elite race Saturday. It apparently wasn't in the expert race (but maybe a typo that it was in for the sport race). Heard people have been injured on it.

    I'm all for throwing in stuff like. I think it's super fun. I know with smaller one last year, it was the highlight of my lap. I think wheels off the ground is an element of mountain biking and certainly when I'm out riding, while it may not be a 'gap' per say, it's not uncommon to launch a drop and need to clear something before landing (aka not be able to roll it). As long as there is a ride around for everyone.

    By the way....Louda hit it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pucked up View Post
    The jump may not be for most solo riders but there are a lot more team riders than solo. The good news is that the ones that will take the jump already have experience with getting air. Either from skateboarding or bmx which is where I came from and then transition to mountain biking. The bad news is that most kids now think MTB is an old man sport and will no way transition to it. So in a couple years time you can watch the 8hr and or the 24hr races die like the rest of the citizenship races due to lack of interest. I wonder what you'll complain about then?
    So let's talk about ride-around penalties.

    So what if I decide to walk the jump? Strictly speaking one could walk it and make it infinitely more dangerous for people that won't expect somebody walking the take-off or the transition. The sad part is that it would be much, much faster than the ride-around and I would still have tons of momentum into the next climb. For the second gap jump, walking would be also much faster than the ride-around.

    It is only a matter of time before racers will walk such tough sections if the ride-around penatly is much bigger. To me, this is the balance point between the two choices. Do not make the penalty large enough to tempt somebody to walk the difficult part.

    I wish organizers would use that criteria. That would be fair, if we are still interested in fairness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Just a friendly reminder......you the whiners are aware that Hardwood is the course in one year for the Pan Am games. So like the course at the London Olympics there will be sections that are extremely challenging for everyone else like NiŮo Shurtner. So the real question is what is the plan for post Pan Ams after the games are all over.
    What does that have to do with sport racing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious View Post
    So let's talk about ride-around penalties.

    So what if I decide to walk the jump? Strictly speaking one could walk it and make it infinitely more dangerous for people that won't expect somebody walking the take-off or the transition. The sad part is that it would be much, much faster than the ride-around and I would still have tons of momentum into the next climb. For the second gap jump, walking would be also much faster than the ride-around.

    It is only a matter of time before racers will walk such tough sections if the ride-around penatly is much bigger. To me, this is the balance point between the two choices. Do not make the penalty large enough to tempt somebody to walk the difficult part.

    I wish organizers would use that criteria. That would be fair, if we are still interested in fairness.
    Okay since you talk about ride around penalties. Let's look at it very simply. You have 3 choices to deal with this,

    A. One develops their skills for things like rock gardens, small drops like this, and such. And they will less of a time penalty.

    B. They choose not to develop the skills and take the ride around. And therefore will take a time penalty based on that choice. And be forced to make up time in other ways on the course.

    C. Complain on the Internet that this is evil and is to hard for one self. Therefore it must be bulldozed and everyone else is to be punished.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    By the way....Louda hit it.
    Of course she did. She is a national level racer, and only her lack of citizenship prevented her from wining the nationals last year. I am not in her league and I won't pretend that if she can do it, anyone should be able to it. I respect her too much for that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious View Post
    What does that have to do with sport racing?
    I could explain it to you but since it would be a waste of effort. I would rather put that effort I to a 50 k ride then waste it here.

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    are you seriously talking about walking the jump because the ride around is too much penalty? Are you a racer or a mountain biker first? I would think most people do races because of the fun/community aspect of it, not because we are star athletes, especially in a sport category. if I was a spectator and saw you walk it, instead of sending/taking ride around, i would boo the **** out of you.

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    Also, ride arounds for TTF are supposed to penalize your time aggressively. If they didn't, no one would do the TTF as there is too many things that could go wrong. So either you accept the risk for benefit of time, or you don't. Its up to the racer what they're comfortable with, same as any line choice really.

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    I don't know the why's and wherefores of racing in the different levels. However, the attitude that if I can't ride something, I should have the right to remove it or change it kills me. If I can't ride something, I walk it or if there is a way around it, I will take it. I will however not create one if not there. Ride the course the way it is or don't ride it at all. Just don't ruin it for everyone else. If you can't ride the jump, then go around. The course cannot be tailored to a specific individual riding a single speed bike. I am not good on climbs, so either I don't ride hilly places or just suffer or walk if I want to ride there. It seems to me less about the jump but about the loss of speed on the bypass to the jump. If the penalty was not steep, I would think there would not be much of a complaint. The talk of safety and so on seem a little beside the point. It's more about winning than participating it seems.
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    good points by all, there really is no right or wrong answer here. Course designers are trying to find that sweet spot of balancing technical vs risk vs reward vs elite riders vs sport riders. Its a lot to figure out with the ever changing sport of XC mtbing. No cycling discipline has changed as much as MTB.

    These new drops and gaps are now a part of the sport(at the higher levels) so there has to be a trickle down. With the main rule of thumb being "hey if there is a ride around its all good"

    everyone has to ride within their comfort zone and be safe, for some that means taking the go around or maybe even hoofing it. Which will get some boo's but isn't against any rules. Its all trial and error for org's if it doesn't work the next year they'll change it.

    Don't be hesitant to shoot a polite note to the organizer either, if the sport riders leave xco in Ontario it will be like everywhere else in Canada, (minus QC) belly up.

    I'm heading to Hardwood today if I see someone in the know ill ask if this feature is in the sport races. The course is marked but subject to change and approval by uci/ccc/oca.

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    The word I hear is that the big gap jump is out for all but the elites. Not sure about the smaller gap jump.

    One anecdote - as some will recall, in the Canada Cup Sport race last year, a rider laid a sketchy pass on me on the lead-up to the jump, shut the door on me and I didn't have the speed to make the gap. I was not pleased (as those around me on the course and spectating unfortunately heard). So I guess my point would be it is not just about each individual rider riding within their limits - everyone also has to ride in such a way as not to endanger anyone else competing.

    And for all those people talking about racers sucking it up, I know for a fact that several of the most vocal of you don't race, and have not raced in a very long time. For you, I say that it is one thing to clear a TTF when just out on a ride, and another thing entirely to do it in the middle of a race with the adrenaline pumping and your competition breathing down your neck.
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    I get what Serious is saying. A gap jump that big for 50-60 sport riders might be a bit much. Not being an ass here, but at 33 I dont heal as well as I used to, at 50+ I would imagine it would be a nasty recovery "if" it went bad. In my eyes, if there is a ride around then I see no reason for the extra features to be an issue. Now I highly doubt that will be in the sport level race. If I wasnt so cheap I would put money on it. The Joy Ride section last year was the highlight of my race in Sport.

    When I go to pre ride, I want to do that gap. I am finding that the less I do now makes it harder to build up the confidence later in life. I will be expert next year and need to step up my bike skills for stuff just like this. I dont want the penalty, therefore I will need to step up my game.

    On a side note I had heard from a friend that has been doing some IMBA and coaches courses this year, mentioned that when there is a ride around, a rider should be able to take the hard option, mess up abit/fall and still make it out before the B line ride around. There needs to be a reward for risking a fall or a race ending mechanical. A couple seconds is not enough.

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    I realize that what seems easy at a moderate pace is quite difficult when gunning it and specially when the legs and mind are oxygen deprived. I have huge respect for what is being done at speed and the endurance and dedication it takes to race. I guess the danger would be in someone feeling that they had to do the jump to keep up and end up getting hurt or hurting someone else. Is it naive to think that more technical elements can be added to racing at all? I know it's a whole different talk at the pro and elite level down to the sport and recreational racer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by swabag View Post
    everyone has to ride within their comfort zone and be safe, for some that means taking the go around or maybe even hoofing it. Which will get some boo's but isn't against any rules.
    i know its not but it seems like a really cheap thing to do in order to shave seconds. I understand hoofing it you have a mechanical or eat it and need to get out of the TTF zone to get started again. Simply running over the obstacle is a bit absurd. Of coarse, if all that matters is that spot on the podium, then by all means, but by that logic we should all just dope up, and personally, winning shouldn't be the end all.
    Last edited by pizon; 07-01-2014 at 08:56 AM. Reason: forgot word

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    I could explain it to you but since it would be a waste of effort. I would rather put that effort I to a 50 k ride then waste it here.
    That patronizing attitude is unbecoming. But if we are going there, then at least I have earned my right to voice my opinion about racing. I raced on singlespeed before they had a category. In fact, I was part of the reason Peter (Misfit) convinced the organizers to add the category to O-cups. I raced in tons of Ocups over the years, gladly paying the fee and being a member of the OCA. And I did almost all the 8 hour races during this time, last year winning the SS series.

    Yes, I have earned the right to voice my opinion about courses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pizon View Post
    i know its not but it seems like a really cheap thing to do in order to shave seconds. I understand hoofing it you have a mechanical or eat it and need to get out of the TTF zone to get started again. Simply running over the obstacle is a bit absurd. Of coarse, if all that matters is that spot on the podium, then by all means, but by that logic we should all just dope up, and personally, winning shouldn't be the end all.
    What if it is faster to walk a tech section? Happens all the time on a world level.

    Up hill rock garden at Duntroon last year is a good example of a good time to walk. Way faster to run that (for most) then to stall and possibly unclip/walk it out.
    Walking a gap jump is a bit of a dick move as mentioned due to safety.

    I remember last year WC racers complaining about South Africa, it was to technical and riders were getting hurt. There was a ride around. They (the riders) deemed it to costly to take the B line (say that in Bart Brenjens voice and it sounds way better)
    and hurt themselves on the A line. its up to the rider to take the risk in the end.

    Now one thing I have noticed in the Ocups is, the hard line isnt always the fastest. Especially if I screw up the A line. Some times I will just use the A line to pass a slower rider while taking the B Line If I am alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pizon View Post
    are you seriously talking about walking the jump because the ride around is too much penalty? Are you a racer or a mountain biker first? I would think most people do races because of the fun/community aspect of it, not because we are star athletes, especially in a sport category. if I was a spectator and saw you walk it, instead of sending/taking ride around, i would boo the **** out of you.
    Really, is that what you would do? I did the Boneshaker at Hardwood a ton of times in races and never walked it, but I NEVER heard anyone booing those who walked it.

    I suppose you would boo me for running a climb on single speed too?
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    You are talking about walking it as the ride around is too slow. I'm assuming there is no easier line for a climb and if ur gassed than run that sucker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pizon View Post
    You are talking about walking it as the ride around is too slow. I'm assuming there is no easier line for a climb and if ur gassed than run that sucker.
    I know, in know. We both agree that it would be a dick move to walk the gap jump. It is very dangerous and I would never do that because I care about the safety of others (and my own too). I only gave that example to show what I consider a fair walk around. When the penalty is huge, the organizer is inviting the odd racer to walk the difficult section, and there are no rules preventing it.

    Anyway, this was just a discussion. No need to get too upset. I won't be too upset by riding around it.
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    Re: Soapbox time

    No worries dude

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    I don't race, and I'm not even a very good mountain biker, but I'll weigh in anyway

    I can understand adding jumps or incorporating difficult natural terrain and obstacles, but manufacturing something which has the potential for serious (permanent?) injury in the event of a crash seems odd to me. The gap adds nothing to the difficulty of doing it successfully, it simply makes an injury far more likely if someone screws up. Why not a triple, or a drop into a rock garden? Why not build the whole thing and hold it in an arena?

    As I said, I'm really not qualified to comment, but it seems to me unlike the x-games, this is about the participant, not the spectator/consumer and so physical and technical ability should be the focus rather than spectacle and showmanship.
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    Well put bishskate.

    I am now hearing that this gap jump may only be there for elites. That makes more sense to me. And no, I did not call the organizers to complain. I may vent occasionally, but nobody forces me to do anything i am uncomfortable with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bishskate View Post
    Why not a triple, or a drop into a rock garden?
    Now that's just crazy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by secret agent View Post
    I guess the danger would be in someone feeling that they had to do the jump to keep up and end up getting hurt or hurting someone else. Is it naive to think that more technical elements can be added to racing at all? I know it's a whole different talk at the pro and elite level down to the sport and recreational racer.
    It's up to each rider to take personal responsibility and evaluate the risk vs reward. If you can't do it without endangering yourself then don't, if you're endangering others then there should be a marshall there to disqualify you.

    As for technical elements, I used to live in Ottawa and raced a few events in Quebec. Their XC courses had sections which are worse than our DH courses, even for lowly sport level riders such as myself. First time at Bromont was eye opener, the course dumped riders into one of the Flintstone sections which was similar to the worst parts of O-Chute at Blue Mountain.

    As for the jump, I did it earlier today and it was a lot easier than it looks. If you can ride off stairs that are 3 steps high at a decent middle ring pace and not crash then you can easily clear and land this jump. The run up is clean, the landing is clean, there's no lip to worry about, and there's even a slight transition on the landing. It was easier than jumping the rocks near the top of the last big downhill section at last year's Horseshoe course. And I suck at jumps, as in I have no BMX background and get schooled by folks at Joyride who are nearly old enough to be my parents. And I didn't even use my dropper post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    It's up to each rider to take personal responsibility and evaluate the risk vs reward. If you can't do it without endangering yourself then don't, if you're endangering others then there should be a marshall there to disqualify you.
    this.
    personally I haven't ridden it, but it doesn't look like anything i wouldn't expect to encounter lets say in the Don. There is a ride around, if you dont feel like doing it dont, its simple. In terms of adding possibility of injury, its mtb, plus its a race environment, injury can and will happen on thing that much smaller. Last weekend at horseshoe i split my helmet after hitting a tiny rock with my front tire unexpectantly.

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    I certainly see Serious' point. Why add danger to recreational racing? The hockey we watch, love and pay to see has hitting, but you don't see many "oldtimer's" leagues bringing it back. I'm sure a gap jump is exhilarating and I am sure there are some that could do it, but to me safety is key. More and more employees do NOT having short-term disability and MTBing is a cost-prohibitive sport, why make it potentially more expensive??

    Adding gap jumps to sport races doesn't make sense, definitely not in XC races. They belong in endure/downhill races.
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    Back in the old days, an older racer actually died of a heart attack or heat stroke (can't remember which anymore) on the Heights of Horseshoe course. I thus claim that tough climbs are a proven cause of death, and question their presence on XC courses. There should be a lift that lets me bypass the climbs so that I don't drop dead of a heart attack. (yes, this is sarcasm. seriously. But the death was real)

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    Apples vs oranges
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    Name:  aaaa111.JPG
Views: 262
Size:  19.9 KB Confirmed this with Pulse racing, its only a Saturday feature. Wont be used Sunday at all.

    Some awesome stuff being built at hardwood. even it gets used once a year its a great training grounds for younger racers to get accustomed to the international level features.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swabag View Post
    Name:  aaaa111.JPG
Views: 262
Size:  19.9 KB Confirmed this with Pulse racing, its only a Saturday feature. Wont be used Sunday at all.


    Bummed it won't be in the expert races.
    Straight outta Rossland

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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post


    Bummed it won't be in the expert races.
    Probably for the best...otherwise we could expect some
    Serious carnage (pun intended)
    Strava made me do it....

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    Quote Originally Posted by swabag View Post
    Name:  aaaa111.JPG
Views: 262
Size:  19.9 KB Confirmed this with Pulse racing, its only a Saturday feature. Wont be used Sunday at all.

    Some awesome stuff being built at hardwood. even it gets used once a year its a great training grounds for younger racers to get accustomed to the international level features.
    So all is as it should be in the world of XC. Thanks for the update.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    Probably for the best...otherwise we could expect some
    Serious carnage (pun intended)
    Nah, I would chicken out and ride around.
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    It is crazy to see how easy Peter makes it look

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL__aK-qDI8

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    Quote Originally Posted by HB_Toronto View Post
    It is crazy to see how easy Peter makes it look
    I suspect just about everyone riding it will look like a carbon copy of Peter. It's not a feature that really gains anyone any time so long as the rider clears it.
    Nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    I suspect just about everyone riding it will look like a carbon copy of Peter. It's not a feature that really gains anyone any time so long as the rider clears it.
    The video confirms my suspicion. You would think that the gap was more like a 3 foot drop with gap .

    Digger: North Shore History X - Part I - NSMB.com

    But in reality it is not that big a deal. If you go to the skills park near Waterloo the drop is higher then that. I know there will be those one here waving their hands in the air about not wanting to go all the way to Waterloo to practice skills like this. Well, no need to wrong hands in worry. Soon there will be a place other then Joyride to practice skills like this on the Lakeshore.

    Keep in mind that the body can do the drop and such no problem as most of us have the skill already in place from riding and even simply riding off a curb or wheeling off a 2 step star case. What causes the problems is the operating system aka the brain that gets in the way. So we have to work hard to overcome the limit we put in place for whatever reason we come up with. And if we can't get around it we have to accept the fact we can't master the skill and work on ways to make up any time lost as I mentioned previously in other ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    The video confirms my suspicion. You would think that the gap was more like a 3 foot drop with gap .

    Digger: North Shore History X - Part I - NSMB.com

    But in reality it is not that big a deal. If you go to the skills park near Waterloo the drop is higher then that. I know there will be those one here waving their hands in the air about not wanting to go all the way to Waterloo to practice skills like this. Well, no need to wrong hands in worry. Soon there will be a place other then Joyride to practice skills like this on the Lakeshore.

    Keep in mind that the body can do the drop and such no problem as most of us have the skill already in place from riding and even simply riding off a curb or wheeling off a 2 step star case. What causes the problems is the operating system aka the brain that gets in the way. So we have to work hard to overcome the limit we put in place for whatever reason we come up with. And if we can't get around it we have to accept the fact we can't master the skill and work on ways to make up any time lost as I mentioned previously in other ways.
    Luckily (??) I'm highly fluent in Enduramillian, so I will translate for all you minions.

    Doing a drop like this really isn't hard (technically) and doesn't require many extra skills we don't already have. You are more likely to get psyched out causing issues.

    ____

    Me speaking now.

    When you put it that way, I agree with Serious and others. It's not an element that really tests technical abilities as we would classically describe them. It's more a test of confidence and to an extent the size of your kohunas, and unfortunately that stems from the potential risk associated with not nailing the feature. On the other hand, this stuff is fun (to me). So finding a balancing of what is an appropriate 'penalty' for choosing not to do the feature is certainly an MTB racing ethical dilemma.

    Still bummed its not in the expert races.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HB_Toronto View Post
    It is crazy to see how easy Peter makes it look

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL__aK-qDI8
    LOL...OMG, mountains out of ant hills!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post
    L

    When you put it that way, I agree with Serious and others. It's not an element that really tests technical abilities as we would classically describe them. It's more a test of confidence and to an extent the size of your kohunas, and unfortunately that stems from the potential risk associated with not nailing the feature. On the other hand, this stuff is fun (to me). So finding a balancing of what is an appropriate 'penalty' for choosing not to do the feature is certainly an MTB racing ethical dilemma.
    Shouldn't we be testing these factors in a race scenario? What parts of MTB are actually purely technical vs mental? Should we only test technical skills? The way I see it:
    climbing/cornering/braking - skills
    jumps/rocks/roots - metal/confidence/balls
    line choice - problem solving/strategic thinking
    But can we really separate everything so neatly? Is it worth it? Or should we just throw a little bit of everything in and see what happens? Obviously XC racing is not a place for huge doubles, but what is being discussed here is in no way huge, or a double really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pucked up View Post
    LOL...OMG, mountains out of ant hills!!
    LOL is right.

    Sounds like Sport Class 50+ course should be all fire road all the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pizon View Post
    Shouldn't we be testing these factors in a race scenario? What parts of MTB are actually purely technical vs mental? Should we only test technical skills? The way I see it:
    climbing/cornering/braking - skills
    jumps/rocks/roots - metal/confidence/balls
    line choice - problem solving/strategic thinking
    But can we really separate everything so neatly? Is it worth it? Or should we just throw a little bit of everything in and see what happens? Obviously XC racing is not a place for huge doubles, but what is being discussed here is in no way huge, or a double really.
    I agree with you. I don't think it's really an easy answer or definition. I can see the point some people are taking and with everything, it's a shade of gray, not black or while. I personally really like the feature in a race, but I can see why some people think 1) it shouldn't be there for a sport race, 2) what type of time penalty should be administered for not doing this.
    Straight outta Rossland

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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post
    Luckily (??) I'm highly fluent in Enduramillian, so I will translate for all you minions.


    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post

    So finding a balancing of what is an appropriate 'penalty' for choosing not to do the feature is certainly an MTB racing ethical dilemma.
    Bingo. When we race whether that be a MTB race, road race, CX race or whatever endurance race. This is something we do all the time.

    If you think about it it is true. For example if your like me you lose time on a climb no matter how much you train. You look for ways to make up that time. In my case I am better at the descent then the climb. Or work on cornering better. And search for the places to make up time.

    Racing is not just about who has the biggest engine when it comes to mountain biking.

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    in terms of penalties and stuff - is this not why we have classes? if everyone in your class is doing the feature, and you dont want to - you have to accept the penalty or sack up. if everyone takes the ride around, i dont see how the overall is affected. If one guy goes for it, then kudos for him and he should be rewarded for being a badass

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    Quote Originally Posted by pucked up View Post
    LOL...OMG, mountains out of ant hills!!
    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    LOL is right.

    Sounds like Sport Class 50+ course should be all fire road all the time.

    We all know video's and pictures often don't do technical features justice. This is a step up in level from anything that has been seen on an OCUP course, or that is commonly available for people to ride on our local trails around here.

    Lots of people see drop and gap and it's intimidating and the risk of taping brakes last second and casing (or overshooting) is real with likely pretty serious consequences.

    While I'm sure you guys would roll up to this sight unseen, lets not forget, racers or not, the majority of mountain bikers would find this intimidating.

    Looking at the picture and putting it into perspective, you are talking likely 2.5ft down and clearing a gap of at least that maybe 3+ ft. I've ridden with enough people that talked big on the internetz that are mountain bikers and make fun of racers (not suggesting you guys are doing this) that would think twice and likely not do this.

    Straight outta Rossland

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    Quote Originally Posted by pizon View Post
    in terms of penalties and stuff - is this not why we have classes? if everyone in your class is doing the feature, and you dont want to - you have to accept the penalty or sack up. if everyone takes the ride around, i dont see how the overall is affected. If one guy goes for it, then kudos for him and he should be rewarded for being a badass
    I think there should be a penalty as well, not arguing that, as well as your point about classes. Should 10 seconds be the reward to the badass? 5? 30? Should someone be able to crash, get up, straighten handlebars and still be the guy out who did the ride around?
    Straight outta Rossland

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    I think it was mentioned earlier in the thread that according to imba the penalties should allow for a slight mess up on feature or something to that extent. I shouldnt be able to do the jump, pull off, chug a beer/smoke a cig and still come out on top

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Counterpoint: since when does XC mean "my wheels must stay on the ground at all times"? Also, have you seen a world cup XC course lately? How are people going to learn to ride like Nino Schurter without courses which provide for air time? As someone explained to me a while back when I was wondering why the elites were doing shorter & more laps at Hardwood than the expert riders, it's because they're making it more relevant and getting with the times, so to speak. Things seen at the World Cup level will trickle down to lower levels to prepare riders for competing at higher levels. Also, Joyride 150. If you spent 10% as much time there practicing jumps & drops as you do training your cardio, you'd be laughing at the jumps at Hardwood.

    And now I'm gonna have some fun. What's up with all the double track and fireroads on the XC course? It's like they're making it into road riding on dirt, this is not what mountain biking is about. I demand that they remove all doubletrack and fireroad sections and add more technical features, especially to the climbs. I signed up to race XC, not road ride on dirt. If I wanted to road ride, I'd get a 29er, I mean a road bike.
    dude - you are comparing 52 years old rider who races Master Expert to Nino Shurter?

    the difference between UCI XC professionals and Master Expert riders is quite significant. i hope i don't have to remind you that almost all Ontario Cup racers have to go to work the next day, and some of them are self-employed.

    having said that - i am fine with including the gap feature in the course and leaving the optional ride around at 10ish second penalty. i am also fine with taking it out for all but Elite and Jr Expert cats. try to find the interview with the XC women pro - Gould - who is (justifiably) concerned that courses have more and more features and layouts that are spectator friendly - meaning that the safety of the racers is being more and more compromised for the benefit of spectator enjoyment.

    it is easy for you to thump your chest and say "i demand no fire roads or double track or i want more features on climbs etc" - probably because your cardio is not up to par with those who spend time actually training cardio. over the past 10ish years - i have seen courses change from two line highways doable on cross bikes to pan-am level courses like the one at hardwood. i personally don't really care, as i can do both.

    but seeing the gap feature for the first time - i knew there was going to be a carnage and not by the pro, but the victim would come from the master expert category - like in this case the girl who messed herself up on that jump...

    while i liked the direction that the organizers were taking with the level of difficulty on XC courses - i believe that it could have been done more sensibly and gradually - in case of this particular feature. on the other hand - i understand that for pan-am games - this feature is required and nothing to write home about...

    aerious - why don't you actually sign up for a race and square off with your age group in sport category. there are enough features in the course to make it interesting... i've seen you lurking at horseshoe i think... what's preventing you?
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    no way this feature will ever see any public racing on it...
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post
    We all know video's and pictures often don't do technical features justice. This is a step up in level from anything that has been seen on an OCUP course, or that is commonly available for people to ride on our local trails around here.
    It is, and thank Odin that we're finally seeing features & courses that are actually fun.

    I can't speak for others, but back when I raced half the reason for going was to ride new trails & features that aren't found on my local trails. I'm not driving 2 hours to a race just to ride the same stuff that can be found 10 minutes from home, I want to ride new & different features that I can't find in my area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pucked up View Post
    The jump may not be for most solo riders but there are a lot more team riders than solo. The good news is that the ones that will take the jump already have experience with getting air. Either from skateboarding or bmx which is where I came from and then transition to mountain biking. The bad news is that most kids now think MTB is an old man sport and will no way transition to it. So in a couple years time you can watch the 8hr and or the 24hr races die like the rest of the citizenship races due to lack of interest. I wonder what you'll complain about then?
    pretty laughable comment... show me any other race (DH, BMX, Cross) that outnumbers any XC race - including XC Ontario Cups, 24 and 8 hour races?

    Which part of the MTB is considered "old man sport"? XC or DH?

    There is a reason why there are different MTB disciplines, including XC and/or DH. That is because they require practicing different skills. I am yet to see any WC DH racers race WC XC and the other way around.

    XC racing includes a certain level of technical difficulty, by all means, but expecting it to have DH or BMX style features and calling either one an "old man sport" is quite ignorant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    no way this feature will ever see any public racing on it...
    Lame.

    It's well build from looking at the picture and video. Simply roll in with okay speed and you'll clean it no worries.

    If Expert class riders can't clean that they should stick to road or cx or Grand Fondo's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jduffett View Post
    +1... I'm not much of a racer, but maybe I would be if there was more stuff like this... As it stands, most of my race experience goes something like this: 1) get blown away on the double track 2) get stuck behind all those guys that just passed me on the singletrack. So, I could use something to level the playing field!
    based on your own self evaluation, i doubt that 10 second penalty would help you much... for XC races, there is not substitute to cardio fitness. that is the premise of XC racing... personally - i'd have loved if they kept the gap for all expert cats, but i knew it ain't gonna happen. i also believe that optional ride around should carry more penalty than the do now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    I am yet to see any WC DH racers race WC XC and the other way around.
    Tracey Mosley. Although technically retired WC DH but raced the WC XC in South Africa.
    Jared Graves. Raced Australian national XC this year and last years Worlds DH.

    Both Enduro racers, proving that it's a way better sport than either XC or DH.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post
    We all know video's and pictures often don't do technical features justice. This is a step up in level from anything that has been seen on an OCUP course, or that is commonly available for people to ride on our local trails around here.

    Lots of people see drop and gap and it's intimidating and the risk of taping brakes last second and casing (or overshooting) is real with likely pretty serious consequences.

    While I'm sure you guys would roll up to this sight unseen, lets not forget, racers or not, the majority of mountain bikers would find this intimidating.

    Looking at the picture and putting it into perspective, you are talking likely 2.5ft down and clearing a gap of at least that maybe 3+ ft. I've ridden with enough people that talked big on the internetz that are mountain bikers and make fun of racers (not suggesting you guys are doing this) that would think twice and likely not do this.

    agreed Captain... when done properly - this jump looks like a walk in the park. nothing to worry about.

    however, don't forget that coming to this feature everyone is redlining (sprinting up the climb coming up to it in order to have enough speed to jump it), already oxygen deprived, tired, beat up etc... the jump requires everything that is counter intuitive - speed up instead of slow down, full commitment or eat $hit... while for some of posters this is an easy feature that they can do with the blindfold - it has to be considered during race conditions, not as a sessioning feature...

    having said all that - i would have loved to have it in the race... i know i could make 10 seconds up every lap on some of my nemesis...
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    Quote Originally Posted by pizon View Post
    I think it was mentioned earlier in the thread that according to imba the penalties should allow for a slight mess up on feature or something to that extent. I shouldnt be able to do the jump, pull off, chug a beer/smoke a cig and still come out on top
    the only problem with this feature is that if you mess up with it - you most likely will not be able to continue the competition, as this is a high speed feature... as i mentioned already, one rider who tried it is wearing a neck brace right now...
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    aerious - why don't you actually sign up for a race and square off with your age group in sport category. there are enough features in the course to make it interesting... i've seen you lurking at horseshoe i think... what's preventing you?
    Lack of interest, other than the Horseshoe course there's nothing that really excites me and makes me want to go race.
    Quebec Cups on the other hand, I have plans...

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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Tracey Mosley. Although technically retired WC DH but raced the WC XC in South Africa.
    Jared Graves. Raced Australian national XC this year and last years Worlds DH.

    Both Enduro racers, proving that it's a way better sport than either XC or DH.
    and based on the length of the list - it proves my point... not that i care one way or another...

    but thank you for this invaluable piece of trivia for us on the east side who have to work for living and don't have that much time on their hands (except to post a million useless posts on MTBR), sir...
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    Re: Soapbox time

    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    the only problem with this feature is that if you mess up with it - you most likely will not be able to continue the competition, as this is a high speed feature... as i mentioned already, one rider who tried it is wearing a neck brace right now...
    Wow from looking at it I wouldnt be able to tell its that dangerous. By slight mess up I meant something like a slight case...

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    Quote Originally Posted by pizon View Post
    i know its not but it seems like a really cheap thing to do in order to shave seconds. I understand hoofing it you have a mechanical or eat it and need to get out of the TTF zone to get started again. Simply running over the obstacle is a bit absurd. Of coarse, if all that matters is that spot on the podium, then by all means, but by that logic we should all just dope up, and personally, winning shouldn't be the end all.
    pizon - the premise of racing is to cover each lap in the least amount of time.

    if running the obstacle takes less time than riding around it - guess what? that is the line to take... hence i do not understand booing urge. racing is not about podiuming either. it is about giving it 110% effort from the start to the finish. podiuming is not a goal, it is a reward. these are my personal objectives and please do not think i am trying to talk you down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pucked up View Post
    Now that's just crazy.
    but he has a good point... it would be a spectator delight... i'd personally spectate, anticipating a lot of blood... eh?
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    Its a bicycle race though, dismount should be regraded as last resort option, not a viable strategy (unless CX, I think that's a part of the sport?). If I feel I'm going too slowly through rockgardens due to lack of skill, should I dismount and run them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Lame.

    It's well build from looking at the picture and video. Simply roll in with okay speed and you'll clean it no worries.

    If Expert class riders can't clean that they should stick to road or cx or Grand Fondo's.
    the build is top notch, really great looking feature... and when done correctly - it is adrenaline rush...
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    Sorry to highjack the thread somewhat. I am going to try and make it there to see you guys from the forum and cheer from the sidelines. When would you guys be racing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post




    Bingo. When we race whether that be a MTB race, road race, CX race or whatever endurance race. This is something we do all the time.

    If you think about it it is true. For example if your like me you lose time on a climb no matter how much you train. You look for ways to make up that time. In my case I am better at the descent then the climb. Or work on cornering better. And search for the places to make up time.

    Racing is not just about who has the biggest engine when it comes to mountain biking.
    i think you just talk the talk.

    and ride square taper cranks.

    and 8 speed.

    scratch that - is it 7 speed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pizon View Post
    Wow from looking at it I wouldnt be able to tell its that dangerous. By slight mess up I meant something like a slight case...
    video makes it look really easy...

    after you do it successfully - it feels really easy...

    take a look at it in person and you will know what i am trying to say...
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    Quote Originally Posted by pizon View Post
    Its a bicycle race though, dismount should be regraded as last resort option, not a viable strategy (unless CX, I think that's a part of the sport?). If I feel I'm going too slowly through rockgardens due to lack of skill, should I dismount and run them?
    depends what you want to make out of the race - clearing all technical features without dabbing OR making it form start to finish in the least amount of time.

    if the latter - you know the answer - you will do whatever takes less time over that rock garden. if walking it is faster than riding it - the answer is obvious.

    BUT - if racing for you is completing all features without walking or running - then the answer is also obvious...

    so - i can not answer your question - only you can...
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    Ahh, a nice healthy debate on obstacles in XC races.

    One thing I will note, is that back in the day when I used to race O-Cups, I rarely pre-rode the courses. Most venues were around a 2-3 hour drive for me. So, even though an obstacle could be within my riding skill level, seeing it for the first time in the middle of a race lap certainly added to the likelihood of failure.

    That said, I always did support adding optional obstacles that challenge a sport rider's confidence and ability, with a slower bail out route.

    These days, I may be more likely to take the bail-out than before, but I think the other racers should have the opportunity to catch some air if they are up for it.
    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by secret agent View Post
    Sorry to highjack the thread somewhat. I am going to try and make it there to see you guys from the forum and cheer from the sidelines. When would you guys be racing?
    The majority of us here will be racing Sunday, mixed between the 9:30 and 1:30 starts.

    With nationals, the Elite categories (including Junior/Cadet Expert) race Saturday between and 9:00 and 12:30.

    So if you have to come up for a day, while Oggie is a good looking man, I'd come Saturday and watch the big boys and girls battle it out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkj__ View Post
    Ahh, a nice healthy debate on obstacles in XC races.

    One thing I will note, is that back in the day when I used to race O-Cups, I rarely pre-rode the courses. Most venues were around a 2-3 hour drive for me. So, even though an obstacle could be within my riding skill level, seeing it for the first time in the middle of a race lap certainly added to the likelihood of failure.

    That said, I always did support adding optional obstacles that challenge a sport rider's confidence and ability, with a slower bail out route.

    These days, I may be more likely to take the bail-out than before, but I think the other racers should have the opportunity to catch some air if they are up for it.
    Who is this? Could your truck make it is probably the only question you should be asking?
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    Thanks. I just realized it is my anniversary during that weekend. My plans were to go to Buckwallow and The Barrens on Saturday, stay overnight up there or Barrie and check out the MTBR folk in their racing environment. I am not sure that is going to fly with my wife. I have met Oggie and I am acquainted with his charms.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post
    Who is this? Could your truck make it is probably the only question you should be asking?
    I'm sensing my reputation around these parts has suffered in the last few years. It's ok, I deserve it. Haha!
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    Soapbox time

    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post
    So if you have to come up for a day, while Oggie is a good looking man, I'd come Saturday and watch the big boys and girls battle it out.
    This hurts. What have I done to deserve it? Man oh man.

    Maybe I should grow a mullet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    This hurts. What have I done to deserve it? Man oh man.

    Maybe I should grow a mullet.
    Sorry, while you are very attractive man (even with the lack of mullet), watching the carnage of top level skinny lycra clad, clipped in XC racers with no technical skill biting it on that gap jump* is, as you can understand, more exciting.

    * please note this is sarcasm.
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    I was at hardwood today pre riding the course and I am here to tell you that gap jump does not look like a molehill when you are standing at the top of it.

    I am actually quite relieved it is only in the elite course having seen the jump in person. I have a day job and don't want to turn up to it wearing a neck brace the Monday after the race.

    The rest of the course, BTW, is a near perfect mix of fast and flowy Singletrack and enough challenging obstacles and features to keep everyone on their toes. It definitely isn't 8km of fire road...
    Strava made me do it....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    I was at hardwood today pre riding the course and I am here to tell you that gap jump does not look like a molehill when you are standing at the top of it.
    That's because you ride a 29er, things look harder than they are when you're that high up in the air and clipped in. (yes, this is sarcasm)
    Also note that Nino Schurter, who is the most stylish XC racer rides a 27.5, not a 29er. Surely, this can't be a coincidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    I was at hardwood today pre riding the course and I am here to tell you that gap jump does not look like a molehill when you are standing at the top of it.

    .
    Hmm...this discussion has given me an idea with access to a front end loader prior to August 30th.

    LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    That's because you ride a 29er, things look harder than they are when you're that high up in the air and clipped in. (yes, this is sarcasm)
    Also note that Nino Schurter, who is the most stylish XC racer rides a 27.5, not a 29er. Surely, this can't be a coincidence.
    I have two 650b Scott bikes just cause I have a man crush on Nino.

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    pizon - the premise of racing is to cover each lap in the least amount of time.

    if running the obstacle takes less time than riding around it - guess what? that is the line to take... hence i do not understand booing urge. racing is not about podiuming either. it is about giving it 110% effort from the start to the finish. podiuming is not a goal, it is a reward. these are my personal objectives and please do not think i am trying to talk you down.
    Funny thing about the running comment. I recall Brian Lopes had figured out how to win at one of the stops of the World Cup 4X one year. He discovered that if he shouldered his bike sprinted on foot to through the first turn he could beat everyone. And he did.

    Keep in mind this is also the guy who was crushing XC racers in the XC eliminator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    i think you just talk the talk.

    and ride square taper cranks.

    and 8 speed.

    scratch that - is it 7 speed?
    No square taper here. I either bend them or strip them.

    And finally upgraded last year to rapid rise.

    And landed this one a wee bit to much on the front wheel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    No square taper here. I either bend them or strip them.

    And finally upgraded last year to rapid rise.

    And landed this one a wee bit to much on the front wheel.
    Hey a new picture of you going off a drop (as opposed to that one in Vancouver?). Will there be a new picture of you running in your tri-oufit?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post
    Hey a new picture of you going off a drop (as opposed to that one in Vancouver?). Will there be a new picture of you running in your tri-oufit?
    No, since I have an agreement with Unglued. This will to suffice for your interest.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    I was at hardwood today pre riding the course and I am here to tell you that gap jump does not look like a molehill when you are standing at the top of it.

    I am actually quite relieved it is only in the elite course having seen the jump in person. I have a day job and don't want to turn up to it wearing a neck brace the Monday after the race.

    The rest of the course, BTW, is a near perfect mix of fast and flowy Singletrack and enough challenging obstacles and features to keep everyone on their toes. It definitely isn't 8km of fire road...
    And now you know.

    But this whole thread goes to show you how little credibility people around here have. Their are all freaking heroes, ready to add technical features to citizen races and Sport races because "World Cup racers do it". They see a video and the predictable comments show up.

    I brought this up because I honestly thought we have to do this jump in Sport and frankly I thought the organizers went nuts. But again, the organizers show that they understand racing at different levels. Unlike some of the folks around here who are all talk, because talk is cheap.

    I am glad to see that the experienced racers showed restraint. I don't expect people to agree with me, we are all different after all, but the reaction from some left a lot to be desired - and they are not even racing!
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious View Post
    But this whole thread goes to show you how little credibility people around here have. Their are all freaking heroes, ready to add technical features to citizen races and Sport races because "World Cup racers do it". They see a video and the predictable comments show up.
    I've ridden 2 World Cup XC courses. Comparing this feature to what's now found on WC tracks is like comparing Blue Mountain to Mont Ste Anne.

    I brought this up because I honestly thought we have to do this jump in Sport and frankly I thought the organizers went nuts.
    There's a ride-around. Let me say this again. There's a ride-around. In fact you yourself stated that a ride-around exists. In your very first post in this thread. So let me put this in capital letters: THERE IS NO HAVE TO. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DO THE JUMP. It seems you're just upset that the ride-around is too long and will cost you too much time should you choose to use it.

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    Good lord, are we mountain bikers or just roadies in disguise?
    The fact that this conversation is even taking place is embarrassing.

    That thing will butter itself.
    And for wrecking anything, with that tranny you will not even feel the landing; a good rock garden or root section will be much tougher on bike and skills than a tiny jump that almost does itself.

    If you have been serious about mountain biking for 1-2 years, that jump should be just a fun spot on the trail.
    Take off and lip are very gently sloped, smooth as a newborn's bum, landing is a mild transition and spaced a single bike length out, and again smooth as a newborn - the bike would jump it on momentum alone, no skill required other than not letting yourself do something stupid with weight balance on take off.

    And lets not be bringing age into it, I'm heading to Snowshoe in WV for a weekend of DH on a big hill next month, and by coincidence I'm 50 next month.

    Come on guys, build up those skills, your fear is much larger than that jump.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mykel View Post
    Good lord, are we mountain bikers.....heading to Snowshoe in WV for a weekend of DH on a big hill next month, and by coincidence I'm 50 next month.

    Come on guys, build up those skills
    You going to pedal to the top of that DH course? LOL
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    Hellz No

    When the big-bike comes out - my azz gets lifted to the top. Snowshoe has 1500 foot descents running 5 k long.
    ...and btw ride vert at Blue and you get a huge xc ride on a dh bike as well - if you put in a dozen or better laps at the south end, you are looking at 18+km of xc just to get to the spot where you can point it down.

    ...and after many many many years of earning my turns, I now relish the lift - as it lets me ride a bike with no compromises for descending, instead of the everyday ride compromise that can do both but masters neither.

    Trail-riding - yup I climb and descend my old fat azz on a 6" full coil bike, so I maybe slow to the top, but boy can I come down in a hurry.


    I was just shocked when I saw the picture and comments. I do not race, or follow xc racing, so this was a bit of a WTF? moment that I am still having a hard time processing - had thought a joke at first.

    I just did not think there were experienced mountain-bikers that did not how do do small drops and jumps - now some 6 foot fade-away off-camber drop into a rock/root garden, I can understand, but we are talking Jumping 101 chapter 3 here.

    michael

    ps - this seems to dove-tail into the threads about features, roots and rocks etc.
    If these features are not built, then nobody knows how to ride them and things like the jump freak-out ensues.
    Put the features in and learn to ride them, just make them with beginner and more advanced line options.
    Maybe stop and teach a beginner that seems to be struggling instead of blowing by them trying to be KOM in an area devoid of mountains.

    Just cause your getting up in years (insert other excuse here) does not mean PROGRESSION stops.
    Just riding brings progressioin in some form, you just have to actively seek it out a bit at a bit higher level.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mykel View Post
    I was just shocked when I saw the picture and comments. I do not race, or follow xc racing, so this was a bit of a WTF? moment that I am still having a hard time processing - had thought a joke at first.

    I just did not think there were experienced mountain-bikers that did not how do do small drops and jumps - now some 6 foot fade-away off-camber drop into a rock/root garden, I can understand, but we are talking Jumping 101 chapter 3 here.
    You'd almost think that XC riders were being forced to do the big jump line at Bromont...

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    Soapbox time

    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    That's because you ride a 29er, things look harder than they are when you're that high up in the air and clipped in. (yes, this is sarcasm)
    Also note that Nino Schurter, who is the most stylish XC racer rides a 27.5, not a 29er. Surely, this can't be a coincidence.
    As short as he is - it makes sense to me. However Absalon owns him this season.


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    Soapbox time

    Quote Originally Posted by bishskate View Post
    You going to pedal to the top of that DH course? LOL
    Doubt it. That requires fitness. Anyone can roll down the hill. And relish the lift up. That's called PROGRESSION. (Insert laughing raccoon here)


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    Soapbox time

    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    I've ridden 2 World Cup XC courses. Comparing this feature to what's now found on WC tracks is like comparing Blue Mountain to Mont Ste Anne.



    There's a ride-around. Let me say this again. There's a ride-around. In fact you yourself stated that a ride-around exists. In your very first post in this thread. So let me put this in capital letters: THERE IS NO HAVE TO. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DO THE JUMP. It seems you're just upset that the ride-around is too long and will cost you too much time should you choose to use it.
    Hey Eaphan - come out and race and then yap your mouth. Mykel too. Happy 50th btw. You shouldn't disregard fitness just because you are old. I will soon forget when I was 50. But can still climb the Blue in around 13 minutes. And come down on the same bike. Probably not much slower than you.

    What are we trying to prove here? Whose wiener is bigger? To each his own, kids. "My dad can beat up your dad" is kinda stupid. Isn't it?

    I'd be brave with all that body armour and full face. Why don't you gravity keyboard warriors put on just Lycra and come out to Hardwood or Sudbury to measure up?


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  113. #113
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    Goodness gracious. This has turned into so much macho posing.
    Non-racers: "Aren't your balls big enough to do this simple feature that my 12 year old daughter can do while tying her pigtails?"
    Racers: "Ya, well, you're out of shape."

    Mountain biking comes in many forms. Ontario XC racing has evolved in way that such a feature is unexpected. When I raced OCups, I was like rkj - I never pre-rode. If that feature stayed in, the odds are high that some sport racer who didn't pre-ride would ride up to it way too fast, panic (because this is NOT a standard OCup feature), tap the brakes at just the wrong time and really hurt themselves. From a risk management perspective, the organisers did the right thing by taking it out for the Sport races.

    Honestly, my kind of mountain biking involves nice rides in the forest (occasionally at speed, and prior to the mini-Monster, for six or more hours per day, sometimes day after day). I don't enjoy the stuff that takes big balls, even if it is "easy". But it's cool that other people like it. It's all mountain biking.

    Should Sport level racers (really, entry-level) be able to do features like this? I don't really think so. And if it isn't a requirement, than the B-line should not be a significant time penalty. Different story for the Elites - they probably should be able to do this routinely, so should have a big penalty.

  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Goodness gracious. This has turned into so much macho posing.
    Non-racers: "Aren't your balls big enough to do this simple feature that my 12 year old daughter can do while tying her pigtails?"
    Racers: "Ya, well, you're out of shape."

    Mountain biking comes in many forms. Ontario XC racing has evolved in way that such a feature is unexpected. When I raced OCups, I was like rkj - I never pre-rode. If that feature stayed in, the odds are high that some sport racer who didn't pre-ride would ride up to it way too fast, panic (because this is NOT a standard OCup feature), tap the brakes at just the wrong time and really hurt themselves. From a risk management perspective, the organisers did the right thing by taking it out for the Sport races.

    Honestly, my kind of mountain biking involves nice rides in the forest (occasionally at speed, and prior to the mini-Monster, for six or more hours per day, sometimes day after day). I don't enjoy the stuff that takes big balls, even if it is "easy". But it's cool that other people like it. It's all mountain biking.

    Should Sport level racers (really, entry-level) be able to do features like this? I don't really think so. And if it isn't a requirement, than the B-line should not be a significant time penalty. Different story for the Elites - they probably should be able to do this routinely, so should have a big penalty.
    Yep. That's about it.
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    Be my guest trying to ride an 8"+ travel full on dh race bike up the hill.

    Me, if I have to climb, I ride the trail-bike, cause that is what it is for.

    As for just rolling down the hill, maybe if that all you do fitness may not play a part....
    However pick up the pace so you are clearing those 20 foot tables and nicely compressing suspension in the berms, that speed takes a bit of fitness.
    Try doing the following all at one time for a 8-10 minute period without breaks - deep knee bends/squats, hip circles, calf raises, chest presses, lateral cable work, squeezing finger balls all whilst keeping your balance over various jumps, drops, loose rock and roots on a steep pitch while moving at up to 70 kph. Now rinse and repeat for 6 odd hours. DH riding is very taxing, much more than what people think, it is anything but a nice relaxing, low energy ride down the hill.

    Last year, one of the crew brought out an very experienced xc rider for a day up at Blue. Dude is in fantastic shape, but was shocked at how tired he was. He too had bought into the lazy dh'er line. He had a couple of close calls and one good off when he thought he could pull things in from warp, but was out of gas and did not have the strength to haul it in, so rode in hail mary mode, got away with a couple and paid for a third. He now has a quite different opinion of the fitness and skills needed. ( and that is at a mild hill like Blue) Overall, he loved it and said he will be back!

    Myself, I'm much more wiped out after 4 hours of DH vs 4 hours of trail-riding.


    As for the racing thing, I gave that up over 25 years ago.
    If for some reason, I slip into a parallel universe, where I even entertain the idea of putting a number back on it would be on the DH bike. (Which I have never raced)

    I just wish Blue was not 3 hours away, as I would be there more often, but alas, I must make do with trail riding in Tillsonburg / Woodstock / TP and the odd trip to Waterloo, Kelso or Cambridge.

    Thank-you for the racing invite though....

    Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    What are we trying to prove here? Whose wiener is bigger? To each his own, kids. "My dad can beat up your dad" is kinda stupid. Isn't it?

    I'd be brave with all that body armour and full face. Why don't you gravity keyboard warriors put on just Lycra and come out to Hardwood or Sudbury to measure up?


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    Oggie..what result where you expecting? This has happened before and will happen again on here.A XC racer will see a pic of a technical feature like this Gap that is the buzz of the Internet. They will lose their minds in worry about this feature and others like this. Forgetting as in the past especially in regards to Canada Cups that the are now days more technical lines like this Feature in Question. And these lines as to be expected are reserved for the Elite and Pro waves. Which if you think about it is pretty accurate.

    It is funny to me this whole thing. To put it another way this would be like watching the Hanennkhamm and thinking that every one starts on that type of race course. Which if you think about it the carnage would be pretty scary.


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  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by mykel View Post
    Be my guest trying to ride an 8"+ travel full on dh race bike up the hill.

    Me, if I have to climb, I ride the trail-bike, cause that is what it is for.

    As for just rolling down the hill, maybe if that all you do fitness may not play a part....
    However pick up the pace so you are clearing those 20 foot tables and nicely compressing suspension in the berms, that speed takes a bit of fitness.
    Try doing the following all at one time for a 8-10 minute period without breaks - deep knee bends/squats, hip circles, calf raises, chest presses, lateral cable work, squeezing finger balls all whilst keeping your balance over various jumps, drops, loose rock and roots on a steep pitch while moving at up to 70 kph. Now rinse and repeat for 6 odd hours. DH riding is very taxing, much more than what people think, it is anything but a nice relaxing, low energy ride down the hill.

    Last year, one of the crew brought out an very experienced xc rider for a day up at Blue. Dude is in fantastic shape, but was shocked at how tired he was. He too had bought into the lazy dh'er line. He had a couple of close calls and one good off when he thought he could pull things in from warp, but was out of gas and did not have the strength to haul it in, so rode in hail mary mode, got away with a couple and paid for a third. He now has a quite different opinion of the fitness and skills needed. ( and that is at a mild hill like Blue) Overall, he loved it and said he will be back!

    Myself, I'm much more wiped out after 4 hours of DH vs 4 hours of trail-riding.


    As for the racing thing, I gave that up over 25 years ago.
    If for some reason, I slip into a parallel universe, where I even entertain the idea of putting a number back on it would be on the DH bike. (Which I have never raced)

    I just wish Blue was not 3 hours away, as I would be there more often, but alas, I must make do with trail riding in Tillsonburg / Woodstock / TP and the odd trip to Waterloo, Kelso or Cambridge.

    Thank-you for the racing invite though....

    Cheers

    michael
    Maybe you don't get what I am trying to say Mykel.

    I don't care about 8" suspension bikes and DH. Not my piece of cake. But I am happy for you if it gives you the fix you are looking for. Please don't try to convince me that DH cardio fitness is even close to XC cardio fitness.

    Read Nerdgirls post - she is spot on about what the problem with the gap jump is. We are not used to it. It is not whether we like it or not - we are just not used to it at sport and to a degree at expert level. XC did not use to include jumps for the past 7-8 years that I have memory of.

    Increasing the level of difficulty of XC courses is good and desirable. I personally love it. But it must be done gradually - same as you progressed from blue to black DH trails at Blue.

    Hardwood is a Pan Am course - probably on par with average WC course when all is done. How do you put a weekend warrior sport racer who has to go to work on Monday on a de facto pro level course.

    You should know that XC is about managing lactic acid pain and fighting oxygen deprivation. That gap and few other features all of a sudden look different when you approach it red lining your heart rate and partly oblivious and in Unglued's case somewhat delusional.

    It is all about prospective and different angles of looking at it.

    How would you feel if I showed up in your DH thread and shared my experience of pushing a horse poop down the hill and seeing it make it to the bottom of the hill, it's that easy. Anyone with one nut can do it.

    If you think XC crowd don't have marbles - you should hop on a hard tail with 3" travel fork and 2.1" sub 500g tires with high saddle and bomb down the bone shaker at Hardwood. Wearing condom thick spandex. Clipped in.

    So instead of disrespecting the XC crowd - as you did in your first couple of posts - leave it be, if not trying to understand the root of the concern. Heck - maybe even throw a tip or two and encouragement, rather than "shock".

    In the end we should be just one big family. Regardless of if we are clipped in or not.

    There you go. Now wipe that happy tear from the corner of your eye and keep smiling. It's that easy.

    And me? Less than 150 km left on my drive back home. Hence so much posting. I am bored.


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  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    It seems you're just upset that the ride-around is too long and will cost you too much time should you choose to use it.
    Exactly! I never pretended otherwise.
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  119. #119
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    If I were to try this trail feature, should I use flats, or clips? Which tires?

  120. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by mykel View Post
    Myself, I'm much more wiped out after 4 hours of DH vs 4 hours of trail-riding.
    This is not saying much about your trail-riding efforts. We are talking about XC racing here, not putzing around on a trail.

    Having said that, I know that DH racers have to be in fantastic shape to handle those intense 2-4 minutes of craziness. I have nothing but respect for them.
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  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    And these lines as to be expected, are reserved for the Elite and Pro waves ... Common sense says...you don't start at that level. You get a easier course.
    That is fair, but that is not what you said originally. And when I did the course, there was no "A-line sign" like in the picture. I was very surprised and disappointed with the penalty.
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  122. #122
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    Lol flats or clips

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    Oggie " Wearing condom thick spandex." You sound fast !
    Glad you also own baggies for when you go on a slower relaxed ride.
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post

    And me? Less than 150 km left on my drive back home. Hence so much posting. I am bored.


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    Bored? I figured by now you would all be arguing what tires. Or based on the unpredictable nature of this years weather...more likely how many different wheel sets and what tires to compensate for what the day may end up being like.

  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by bishskate View Post
    You going to pedal to the top of that DH course? LOL
    i do at mount saint anne, will be even more fun with the covert and the new trails being built there. i also use the gondola, 5 days of riding all kinds of terrain/trails is a blast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    Why don't you gravity keyboard warriors put on just Lycra and come out to Hardwood or Sudbury to measure up?
    Let's see, I'm a sport level rider. I don't get to ride any of the fun stuff like Boneshaker, West D-Nile or the gap jump. Other than Horseshoe, there's nothing fun for me to ride in O-cup races. I'm not paid or sponsored to race, why should I do it if it's not fun?

    Quebec Cup races on the other hand are fun, and as I said, I have plans for them.

  127. #127
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    where you the person that crashed on the embryo filter? we all can benefit from practicing and sessioning features. makes for a safer ride.

    eaphen and mykel do have good points and it is a fact that Ontario has lagged behind other riding areas (and the world) when it comes to more fun feature filled trails that are officially sanctioned. well I'm pleased to say that this is all changing and we are stepping up. good on hardwood hills for building it. i hope they build many more. i might just have to start xc racing again. hmmm... bib shorts only riding a ht carbon 29er singlespeed build with a dropper post and platforms!? yeah baby!


    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    Hey Eaphan - come out and race and then yap your mouth. Mykel too. Happy 50th btw. You shouldn't disregard fitness just because you are old. I will soon forget when I was 50. But can still climb the Blue in around 13 minutes. And come down on the same bike. Probably not much slower than you.

    What are we trying to prove here? Whose wiener is bigger? To each his own, kids. "My dad can beat up your dad" is kinda stupid. Isn't it?

    I'd be brave with all that body armour and full face. Why don't you gravity keyboard warriors put on just Lycra and come out to Hardwood or Sudbury to measure up?


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  128. #128
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    Some observations that may or may not add value to this discussion.

    1) I ride "features" on my FR bike that I would never try on my XC bike. They aren't really comparable pieces of equipment in that sense.

    2) I ride "features" when I am just out for a ride that I would never attempt in the anaerobic haze of an XC race.

    3)I ride "features" when I am by myself that I would never attempt with other cyclists of unknown ability levels racing 3' in front of me and 3' behind me.

    4) It does seem odd to have a gap-type feature on an XC course when Blue has been apparently told by their lawyers that all features must be roll-able on a DH trail.

    All of that said, the feature in the photo provided does appear to be the type that I might ride in a race. But speaking as a guy who has been riding DH since the mid-1990s, but left his last XC race course in the back of an ambulance, I guess I'd need to see it in person to make the call.
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  129. #129
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    You must have mistaken me with someone else. I didn't notice any filters on Embryo. You sure there is one?

    Ontario is lagging behind in what? Don't think so. Just in your head.

    Can't wait to see the return of the team Camel Toe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Let's see, I'm a sport level rider. I don't get to ride any of the fun stuff like Boneshaker, West D-Nile or the gap jump. Other than Horseshoe, there's nothing fun for me to ride in O-cup races. I'm not paid or sponsored to race, why should I do it if it's not fun?

    Quebec Cup races on the other hand are fun, and as I said, I have plans for them.
    Why dont you race expert? That way you get all the fun bits.
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  131. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Shaw View Post
    Oggie " Wearing condom thick spandex." You sound fast !
    Glad you also own baggies for when you go on a slower relaxed ride.
    It's about the ride, not what we wear. Besides, I was afraid to wear spandex with a horny stranger in the middle of nowhere in SC.
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  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Bored? I figured by now you would all be arguing what tires. Or based on the unpredictable nature of this years weather...more likely how many different wheel sets and what tires to compensate for what the day may end up being like.
    no, we first have to spend a few days arguing about obvious benefits of flat pedals. then, and only then, when we all agree that flat pedals provide unbeatable advantage in xc races, more so than clearing the gaps, we can start talking about tires.

    by the way - it was proven in Specialized wind tunnel that shaven legs provide speed advantage. one minute over 40 km course. word is that all DH crowd is shaving their legs in a hurry.

    i am thinking about Brazilian Wax myself. gotta have clean speedo lines. what are you going to do?
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    It's about the ride, not what we wear. Besides, I was afraid to wear spandex with a horny stranger in the middle of nowhere in SC.
    Yes it is about the ride and different rides have different vibes.
    No need to be afraid on SC singletrack, you will not hear "rider on your left" or "TRACK". But you might hear some polite "Hello's". More likey just happy bird songs.
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  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Shaw View Post
    Yes it is about the ride and different rides have different vibes.
    No need to be afraid on SC singletrack, you will not hear "rider on your left" or "TRACK". But you might hear some polite "Hello's". More likey just happy bird songs.
    i thought what happens in SC stays in SC. watch the rumour mill starting now. i knew i should not have worn pink. next time we will drink beer at the end of the ride. not before.
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  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post

    Ontario is lagging behind in what? Don't think so. Just in your head.
    You're right! Ontario has the best "Road Races on Dirt" bar none!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by pucked up View Post
    You're right! Ontario has the best "Road Races on Dirt" bar none!!
    Try racing in Sudbury. You'll be crying for your Momma.

  137. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by pucked up View Post
    You're right! Ontario has the best "Road Races on Dirt" bar none!!
    okay - can you define for me what is Ontario lagging behind, instead of being sarcastic. if you don't like XC, and prefer some other discipline - that is fine - no need to dump on part of the MTB family of sports that is not your piece of cake.

    i also wish we had Whistlers or Mt.Ste-Annes in our backyard. but we don't. and i am trying to make the most out of what we have... Ontario has many some of the best national XC riders, who were developed in Ontario - one of them is top ten in the world cup xc right now. And she is beautiful too. not to mention few young up and coming xc racers too...

    what kinds of trails are you looking for? xc with more difficulty levels? more DH? more FR?

    What is wrong with "Road Races on Dirt", if you believe that description fits Ontario XC Cup races... if 500-600 MTBers show up to race these races - what is wrong with it?

    personally - i have everything i need in Ontario, when it comes to MTB and under the circumstances of mostly flat and not too challenging terrain. i could dream about Whistler, but reality is this is Ontario...

    let's talk rather than hurl eggs at each other...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thatshowiroll View Post
    Try racing in Sudbury. You'll be crying for your Momma.
    Nope never been there, toooo far. But I'll give you that one. Mommie!!
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  139. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by pucked up View Post
    Nope never been there, toooo far. But I'll give you that one. Mommie!!
    Yes son? here is my thumb to suck. everything will be all right...

    THAT'S NOT MY THUMB SON...

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    Jump was put there for the Elites/Pros...

    Well, I didn't see this thread until today. It's a rather enjoyable read save for the mudslinging in some regards.

    Having put in seven laps on this course now, as a spandex wearing XC Racer, that does enjoy technical challenges, I will offer an opinion that this gap is by no means suited to the Sport Racers. At least the 80% of the field in that category. I suggest that having been upgraded from Sport to Expert last year and being in my second season in Master Expert myself. Only the top few riders in the respective category will likely try that, and others that do, it will end badly. This gap isn't small by any stretch and requires a significant amount of speed to ensure safe clearance on the landing.

    So, let's put this in perspective. This is a "Canada Cup" race, and needs to have technical requirements that reflect so. While I appreciate Tom's displeasure with the immense penalty to skip the jump, there is the element of choice as others have noted. I do know from sources that the UCI may or may not have been to the venue to review the facility and it was suggested that some things be addressed for the venue, hence many of the "other" upgrades that are happening there. This feature is about this event and the Elite level riders having another challenge at the Canada Cup, and really has little to do with the "Sport" category hitting it successfully. As long as we all realize this, we can stop throwing rocks in the playground about who sucks at tech stuff, wears baggies, can ride uphill too, or likes smoother terrain to ride in the forest on their "mountain" bike.

    In the end, we all like to be on a bicycle, on a trail of some kind, so let's leave the bickering to the skinny tired folks please .
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  141. #141
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    My road bike resents that! And it's way more fun to go off all half-cocked
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    okay - can you define for me what is Ontario lagging behind, instead of being sarcastic. if you don't like XC, and prefer some other discipline - that is fine - no need to dump on part of the MTB family of sports that is not your piece of cake.

    i also wish we had Whistlers or Mt.Ste-Annes in our backyard. but we don't. and i am trying to make the most out of what we have... Ontario has many some of the best national XC riders, who were developed in Ontario - one of them is top ten in the world cup xc right now. And she is beautiful too. not to mention few young up and coming xc racers too...

    what kinds of trails are you looking for? xc with more difficulty levels? more DH? more FR?

    What is wrong with "Road Races on Dirt", if you believe that description fits Ontario XC Cup races... if 500-600 MTBers show up to race these races - what is wrong with it?

    personally - i have everything i need in Ontario, when it comes to MTB and under the circumstances of mostly flat and not too challenging terrain. i could dream about Whistler, but reality is this is Ontario...

    let's talk rather than hurl eggs at each other...
    It's not that I don't like XC, I love XC.

    I guess my problem is when I pay $$$ to enter a race I would like to be challenged in terms of all round MTB XC skills. Not just going fast in tight single track switchbacks with a climb or two to separate the pack. I can just go ride Durham for that. Throw a jump in there for the ones that want some air. Yes, I'm no spring chicken, so I can relate to the ones up there in experience.

    I agree a lot with what you have said above. Don't know about the 500 - 600 MTBers showing up to each race. Maybe back in early Y2K yes, didn't look like that in last years Epic 8. And if people here think that this sport (MTB XC) is growing and moving forward, there should be more XC races, not less. I miss races like the Durham Durango and a couple of others that Eric use to hold. Are they all gone because there were just too many racers wanting to enter? Seems like 80% of weekend warriors have left and if organizers can still make a profit holding the races to the 20% that are left, then all the best to them. But for how long?

    I also understand the type of world we now live in. No accountability and too many lawyers (not to dump on lawyers). Which is most likely why organizers keep the coarse on the safe side of the fence (for us "sports" class). It only takes one lawsuit to ruin it for everybody else (AKA Blue Mountain) at least here in Ontario.

    What's changed? Fourteen years ago, riders complained about organizers placing a log on the trail which you would have to ride over or dismount and walk over during a race. Fast forward today, now it jumps!
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    Quote Originally Posted by secret agent View Post
    My road bike resents that! And it's way more fun to go off all half-cocked
    yeah, my Dogma is quietly sobbing in front of my desk at work. how can someone be so cruel to us half-cocked roadies???

    Hey Neil - did you jump the gap? Just asking...
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    Yes son? here is my thumb to suck. everything will be all right...

    THAT'S NOT MY THUMB SON...

    LOL...Was that a smoothie you had earlier?

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    yeah, my Dogma is quietly sobbing in front of my desk at work. how can someone be so cruel to us half-cocked roadies???

    Hey Neil - did you jump the gap? Just asking...
    Well, 80% of my riding happens on the road, so I resemble my own remark...

    No, I didn't jump the gap. I have to go to work and be able to chase my kids around sometimes, so I thought the better of even trying. I also knew we wouldn't be racing it, so didn't bother with the risk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pucked up View Post
    It's not that I don't like XC, I love XC.

    I guess my problem is when I pay $$$ to enter a race I would like to be challenged in terms of all round MTB XC skills. Not just going fast in tight single track switchbacks with a climb or two to separate the pack. I can just go ride Durham for that. Throw a jump in there for the ones that want some air. Yes, I'm no spring chicken, so I can relate to the ones up there in experience.

    I agree a lot with what you have said above. Don't know about the 500 - 600 MTBers showing up to each race. Maybe back in early Y2K yes, didn't look like that in last years Epic 8. And if people here think that this sport (MTB XC) is growing and moving forward, there should be more XC races, not less. I miss races like the Durham Durango and a couple of others that Eric use to hold. Are they all gone because there were just too many racers wanting to enter? Seems like 80% of weekend warriors have left and if organizers can still make a profit holding the races to the 20% that are left, then all the best to them. But for how long?

    I also understand the type of world we now live in. No accountability and too many lawyers (not to dump on lawyers). Which is most likely why organizers keep the coarse on the safe side of the fence (for us "sports" class). It only takes one lawsuit to ruin it for everybody else (AKA Blue Mountain) at least here in Ontario.

    What's changed? Fourteen years ago, riders complained about organizers placing a log on the trail which you would have to ride over or dismount and walk over during a race. Fast forward today, now it jumps!
    now we are talking - appreciate that...

    i hear you too... when i said 500-600 racers - i meant the average crowd at the O-Cup race. it used to be over 700 so yes - it did shrink a bit. here is where the organizers have to be careful, hence this concern about these features being introduced not so gradually...

    last year we saw much more climbing and added technical difficulty to all courses, compared to previous year. Albion was gone, as it did not offer much difficulty level that could not be done on a cross bike. if the difficulty level goes up, and more climbing is added - there is some inevitable backlash, mostly from the sport category - and i can't say it is not justified. truth be told, there are quite a few sport class racers who complained that technical elements were not included in their races too... it's always a mixed bag and one can never make all north of 500 people happy.

    you are one of those who would want to see more of these features, as you are comfortable doing them. there is probably 5 of those who would oppose your views and who come out to break a sweat in safe and secure environment and spend some time socializing with friends. when you hear them - you should not plaster the whole XC sausage suit community as being chicken and "dirt road racers". as a matter of fact, most of the XC racing community supported the increase in technical level as well as required increase in conditioning level. new venues have been introduced in the last 3-4 years, like Sir Sams with great level of difficulty, downhill control skills as well as handling rocks and roots off camber etc... another one is Sudbury, where one can not cheat the skill requirement yet at the same time must be able to climb like a goat.

    what bugs me the most in some of the posts by usual suspects, is this artificial division of the MTB community and putting down everything that is done by someone else, while the only right way is the way these individuals think it should be done...

    most of us, regardless of our primary passion, whether it is XC or DH or FR have trail bikes, or fat bikes or any bike that is not the racing bike but the bike that we use to enjoy the grass roots of MTB. our core passion is the same deep inside. instead of discriminating based on outfit, pedals, inches of suspension - we should use this diversity to build more trails that take advantage of the terrain that they are built on...

    shrinking attendance at XC races is not related just to XC races. the cost of gas in my opinion is the biggest reason for declining numbers. plus lack of available time, as people work more to offset lack of salary increases over the past few years. we can't blame declining numbers to just lack of interest, i believe.

    and then lawyers and lack of personal responsibility... need not waste time summarizing how much it hurt the sport, starting with lawsuits at the Blue and Kolapore... it is much easier to build dummied down systems than to lawyer up for protection etc...

    in the end - i could make the same statement as you "Dirt Road Racing" and dwell on it throwing a tantrum or two in the process, but i don't bother... i can make any trail as challenging as i want - whether it is physically or technically... i am just happy that i am healthy, can afford few nice bikes and pocket money for gas... unlike one of my friends who passed away last week playing basketball at 41. let's put things in the right prospective.

    hope to cross path with you on the trail... personal contact is hard to fake. intraweb is biatch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pucked up View Post
    LOL...Was that a smoothie you had earlier?

    haven't had one in a while. trying to shed some weight so that i can climb faster... but i always find a way to eat $hit from time to time, just to keep me honest...
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmeister View Post
    Well, 80% of my riding happens on the road, so I resemble my own remark...

    No, I didn't jump the gap. I have to go to work and be able to chase my kids around sometimes, so I thought the better of even trying. I also knew we wouldn't be racing it, so didn't bother with the risk.
    hmmm... i was ready... that was my only chance at beating Linnley. now the field is unlevelled again.... maybe i should cry to Glenn to put it back in....
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    i hope they build many more. i might just have to start xc racing again. hmmm... bib shorts only riding a ht carbon 29er singlespeed build with a dropper post and platforms!? yeah baby!
    we'll see you then at the sausage suit race in dufferin ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pucked up View Post
    Nope never been there, toooo far. But I'll give you that one. Mommie!!
    Well then, why generalize Ontario XC courses as "Road Races on Dirt", when you've barely ridden outside the GTA?

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    sorry that you lost a friend. it is very sad when that happens, my condolences.

    while the race scene is an important part of the community and should be maintained/grown... it is only one small part of the over cycling community when you look at the overall amount of cyclists out there. I do agree with you that the "costs" involved affect the number of riders attending a race. this was an issue i brought up before in other threads in relation to club memberships and i really don't want to rehash it all here again. yet i think you made an important point. we have to make the sport more accessible to the community by reducing the cost to participate in races or just riding in general. weekday races are a good option for this and hats off to everyone who is holding one now. i must say i miss the freds farm races and loved it when tech sections where included.

    just because Ontario doesn't have mountains does not mean it can't be tech with all kinds of features. you would be surprised what is hidden out there. but officially we have lagged behind, that is a fact. we now have an opportunity for change and to make it better.




    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    now we are talking - appreciate that...

    i hear you too... when i said 500-600 racers - i meant the average crowd at the O-Cup race. it used to be over 700 so yes - it did shrink a bit. here is where the organizers have to be careful, hence this concern about these features being introduced not so gradually...

    last year we saw much more climbing and added technical difficulty to all courses, compared to previous year. Albion was gone, as it did not offer much difficulty level that could not be done on a cross bike. if the difficulty level goes up, and more climbing is added - there is some inevitable backlash, mostly from the sport category - and i can't say it is not justified. truth be told, there are quite a few sport class racers who complained that technical elements were not included in their races too... it's always a mixed bag and one can never make all north of 500 people happy.

    you are one of those who would want to see more of these features, as you are comfortable doing them. there is probably 5 of those who would oppose your views and who come out to break a sweat in safe and secure environment and spend some time socializing with friends. when you hear them - you should not plaster the whole XC sausage suit community as being chicken and "dirt road racers". as a matter of fact, most of the XC racing community supported the increase in technical level as well as required increase in conditioning level. new venues have been introduced in the last 3-4 years, like Sir Sams with great level of difficulty, downhill control skills as well as handling rocks and roots off camber etc... another one is Sudbury, where one can not cheat the skill requirement yet at the same time must be able to climb like a goat.

    what bugs me the most in some of the posts by usual suspects, is this artificial division of the MTB community and putting down everything that is done by someone else, while the only right way is the way these individuals think it should be done...

    most of us, regardless of our primary passion, whether it is XC or DH or FR have trail bikes, or fat bikes or any bike that is not the racing bike but the bike that we use to enjoy the grass roots of MTB. our core passion is the same deep inside. instead of discriminating based on outfit, pedals, inches of suspension - we should use this diversity to build more trails that take advantage of the terrain that they are built on...

    shrinking attendance at XC races is not related just to XC races. the cost of gas in my opinion is the biggest reason for declining numbers. plus lack of available time, as people work more to offset lack of salary increases over the past few years. we can't blame declining numbers to just lack of interest, i believe.

    and then lawyers and lack of personal responsibility... need not waste time summarizing how much it hurt the sport, starting with lawsuits at the Blue and Kolapore... it is much easier to build dummied down systems than to lawyer up for protection etc...

    in the end - i could make the same statement as you "Dirt Road Racing" and dwell on it throwing a tantrum or two in the process, but i don't bother... i can make any trail as challenging as i want - whether it is physically or technically... i am just happy that i am healthy, can afford few nice bikes and pocket money for gas... unlike one of my friends who passed away last week playing basketball at 41. let's put things in the right prospective.

    hope to cross path with you on the trail... personal contact is hard to fake. intraweb is biatch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    we'll see you then at the sausage suit race in dufferin ?
    a white onesie with matching shoes, show off the new crossfit body. i'm going to search the internet now!

    the last race i did at duff was the winter wow singlespeed class... made podium on that one. really enjoyed racing singlespeed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    Why don't you gravity keyboard warriors put on just Lycra and come out to Hardwood or Sudbury to measure up? k
    Cover my flight to Sudbury and I am in.

    Any of you Dirt Roadies coming out to Whistler for the Canada Cup finals?

  154. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Cover my flight to Sudbury and I am in.

    Any of you Dirt Roadies coming out to Whistler for the Canada Cup finals?
    cover my flight to Vancouver - and i am in.

    'sup Shirk? BC keyboard warriors too busy riding and you have to peak in the centre of the hockey universe to get some entertainment? that's ok. since you are one of the few who can ride up equally with authority as go down, you can kick everyone in the proverbial butt from time to time. when are you coming back home?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thatshowiroll View Post
    Well then, why generalize Ontario XC courses as "Road Races on Dirt", when you've barely ridden outside the GTA?
    Because he is pucked up. Duh!
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  156. #156
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    Pucked up,

    I am only joking, I hope you know that! I am convinced that every single one of us would get along just fine on a ride, just as Oggy suggested. Even aerius would like me as soon as he saw the way I fly over small rocks and tiny roots.

    On a different note, I am home today sick like a dog. Who the heck has the flu in the middle of the summer? But now I commute (Go Train) to work and there is always some person hacking away nearby. My paranoia came true and I caught something. I may not realize my goal of doing all O-Cups this year. I cannot imagine going to Sudbury based on how I feel now. But I am not cancelling yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious View Post
    Because he is pucked up. Duh!

    Pucked up,

    I am only joking, I hope you know that!
    Word!

    No worries serious...all is good!

    Unfortunately my comments are from the past races I've done in the GTA and a 1-2hrs drive in the surrounding areas which I consider Ontario. Sudbury is not on my radar of places to ride.

    I would have to visit Canmore Alberta first to complete my list of places to ride in Canada before Sudbury appears on the radar. Been to Whistler BC, and Mount St. Anne and loved both places. Then there are the places in the US, but that's another thread.

    Serious, hope you get well and make it out to Sudbury for your race.
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  158. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    Why dont you race expert? That way you get all the fun bits.
    The OCA and race organizers won't let me since I don't have the upgrade points.
    And even if I did, riding 30-35km at race speed isn't my idea of fun.
    20-25km is still fun, more than that and it's not really fun anymore.

  159. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    The OCA and race organizers won't let me since I don't have the upgrade points.
    And even if I did, riding 30-35km at race speed isn't my idea of fun.
    20-25km is still fun, more than that and it's not really fun anymore.
    I am sorry that the current offering of Ocup venues is not your idea of fun. Strange, because we always have quite a few racers who come from Quebec to race Ontario Ocups. They must be nuts for doing that.

    Just as a side note, maybe if you tried racing for 30-35km at your physical redline, you would have realized that every feature grows bigger and every gap grows deeper and more dangerous when you are approaching it with your heart rate at 180bpm, and has been sitting there for the last hour or so and your brain is screaming for oxygen.

    Here is an excerpt from Georgia Gould's interview - she won the bronze at the Olympics in London. Maybe it will help you better understand what some of us are trying to say here:

    GOULD: "The World Cup courses havenít gotten more technical, but theyíve definitely gotten more manmade and contrived. There will be some rock feature piled on top of a bunch of other rock things. Stuff that makes the menís world champion look like a beginner. A few years ago there was a shift to shorter laps that are better for spectators and TV. A lot of people say itís not real mountain bike racing. They need to separate World Cup racing from mountain bike riding. Nobody wants to see one person finish, then five minutes later here comes second place. Thatís not exciting. You want every race to end in a sprint. The lead changing every lap."



    full interview: Georgia Gould, 33 - Mountain Magazine

    cheers...
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post

    Here is an excerpt from Georgia Gould's interview - she won the bronze at the Olympics in London. Maybe it will help you better understand what some of us are trying to say here:

    GOULD: "The World Cup courses havenít gotten more technical, but theyíve definitely gotten more manmade and contrived. There will be some rock feature piled on top of a bunch of other rock things. Stuff that makes the menís world champion look like a beginner. A few years ago there was a shift to shorter laps that are better for spectators and TV. A lot of people say itís not real mountain bike racing. They need to separate World Cup racing from mountain bike riding. Nobody wants to see one person finish, then five minutes later here comes second place. Thatís not exciting. You want every race to end in a sprint. The lead changing every lap."



    full interview: Georgia Gould, 33 - Mountain Magazine

    cheers...
    Yes...because mountain biking World Cup, Pan Ams, and so on are the only event who has a course that is contrived. It is the only one that is modified for spectating and TV viewing.

    Oh..wait it isn't The World Cup Triathlon course in contrived for spectating and TV viewing as well. Yet despite it being contrived and tweaked for better TV viewing they have adapted. How about the road bike criterium?

    Reality is the only cycling event not in the Olympics to date that meets the spectating and perfect for TV criteria yet not contrived is Cyclocross. Which if the new UCI Boss can convince the UCI powers will get in.

    So..it does not surprise me at all that these developments in mountain biking at the Canada Cup, World Cup XC level have occurred. Which in the end will see a trickle down effect. And let is keep in mind the reality that mountain bike racing happens on Singletrack so the viewing excitement of seeing 20 plus racers in a peloton moving around trying to out work each other is gone. No exciting team work. Just down to the Cancellera like loner hammering away from everyone.

    Or maybe we just remove XC concept entirely and replace it with say a 5 rider wide Crit like track. And call it World Cup Gravel Crit racing.

    Oh.. and contrary to popular belief OCUPs are not the centre of the mountain bike racing universe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enduramil View Post
    Yes...because mountain biking World Cup, Pan Ams, and so on are the only event who has a course that is contrived. It is the only one that is modified for spectating and TV viewing.

    Oh..wait it isn't The World Cup Triathlon course in contrived for spectating and TV viewing as well. Yet despite it being contrived and tweaked for better TV viewing they have adapted. How about the road bike criterium?

    Reality is the only cycling event not in the Olympics to date that meets the spectating and perfect for TV criteria yet not contrived is Cyclocross. Which if the new UCI Boss can convince the UCI powers will get in.
    the point that i am trying to make Endura, is that racers feel the same about the contrition and man/woman made TTFs, from the lowest to the highest level of racing. Though Gould is not "complaining" or "whining" about the pile of rocks dumped on some spectator accessible section of the course to make it spectator friendly and attractive, she is echoing the comments that were made in this thread about the same concern... at least in my mind. you did find a convenient tangent to take the discussion in a different direction, but that is not what we are talking about. we do understand the trickle down effect and we don't even mind it. just do it in a sensible way and allow time for adjustment in smaller increments or else you will see sport class racers saying "to bloody hell with this, i gotta go to work on Monday"... and without sport class racers - Ocups WILL become obsolete...


    So..it does not surprise me at all that these developments in mountain biking at the Canada Cup, World Cup XC level have occurred. Which in the end will see a trickle down effect. And let is keep in mind the reality that mountain bike racing happens on Singletrack so the viewing excitement of seeing 20 plus racers in a peloton moving around trying to out work each other is gone. No exciting team work. Just down to the Cancellera like loner hammering away from everyone.
    i do not quite subscribe to your qualification. with good camera placement - you can see snippets of what is happening in the single track as well - just watch some races on Red Bull tv site. It is actually quite exciting, but maybe not for you, i don't know...


    Or maybe we just remove XC concept entirely and replace it with say a 5 rider wide Crit like track. And call it World Cup Gravel Crit racing.
    huh? if you are trying to be witty - please warn me so that i could laugh and include laughing smilies


    Oh.. and contrary to popular belief OCUPs are not the centre of the mountain bike racing universe.
    huh? who said they were? don't waste the intrawebs bandwidth for redundant comments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    based on your own self evaluation, i doubt that 10 second penalty would help you much... for XC races, there is not substitute to cardio fitness. that is the premise of XC racing... personally - i'd have loved if they kept the gap for all expert cats, but i knew it ain't gonna happen. i also believe that optional ride around should carry more penalty than the do now.
    You are right... Hence the
    Still, my point is, if you want me to race, there has to be fun*. No fun, no race. Fun for me involves cheap thrills in the form of technical stuff, airtime, etc. To quote somebody from some mountain bike video from back in the day, "I like hard climbs, technical climbs, really fast downhills, going fast through corners, and catching big, long air"**. At the end of the day, it doesn't much matter to me because I can have fun on my bike without racing. I just felt like I should stick my hand up as one of the crowd for whom features like this tend to make racing more enticing rather than less.
    I will concede I have never really understood the point of gap jumps - I'm not sure what the additional consequence adds to the equation that would be lost in making it a little friendlier. I just got back from a day at Blue (on my XC bike), and Haole is a blast despite the fact that everything is friendly and rollable.

    *or beer
    **bonus points if you can name the video or the rider

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post

    by the way - it was proven in Specialized wind tunnel that shaven legs provide speed advantage. one minute over 40 km course. word is that all DH crowd is shaving their legs in a hurry.

    i am thinking about Brazilian Wax myself. gotta have clean speedo lines. what are you going to do?
    I don't shave. The wind does not dare impede my forward progress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post

    Why don't you gravity keyboard warriors put on just Lycra and come out to Hardwood or Sudbury to measure up?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    The technical term for this issue in the XC world is called Kit Confusion. While at one point back in oh about 91 I thought it was a good idea to wear Lycra hammering through the woods. At a certain point crashes on the unforgiving landscape of Whistler trails one realizes not so good. There was a period of enlightenment with the likes of Ingrid and Angie who made baggy shorts that could cope with the terrain and didn't shred if you brushed a tree.


    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Cover my flight to Sudbury and I am in.

    Any of you Dirt Roadies coming out to Whistler for the Canada Cup finals?
    Hmm..maybe there needs to be a east vs west team smack down one year at the Summer Solstice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jduffett View Post
    I will concede I have never really understood the point of gap jumps - I'm not sure what the additional consequence adds to the equation that would be lost in making it a little friendlier.
    Right there with ya. It's easier to build a gap jump (less dirt involved) but as a riding experience it just seems like unnecessary added risk.

    Incidentally, I know the rider who broke her neck and back on the Hardwood gap jump while pre-riding. She's an excellent rider who has done the BC Bike Race and lots of other technical stuff. She just tapped her brakes at the wrong time and...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Right there with ya. It's easier to build a gap jump (less dirt involved) but as a riding experience it just seems like unnecessary added risk.

    Incidentally, I know the rider who broke her neck and back on the Hardwood gap jump while pre-riding. She's an excellent rider who has done the BC Bike Race and lots of other technical stuff. She just tapped her brakes at the wrong time and...
    oh wow didn't know someone had already been hurt on it. They are filling in a bit of the "gap" portion to make it possible to drop the front wheel and possibly save it. Not hit that big stone stamped hardwood.

    best wishes to the injured rider

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    Right there with ya. It's easier to build a gap jump (less dirt involved) but as a riding experience it just seems like unnecessary added risk.

    e.
    Quote Originally Posted by swabag View Post
    They are filling in a bit of the "gap" portion to make it possible to drop the front wheel and possibly save it. Not hit that big stone stamped hardwood.
    While filling in the gap a bit more will slightly help one still has to work on their skills.

    Sorry, but a lot of blame for this stuff falls on the coaches. It says a lot that the Scottish cycling coaches revealed last year that part of their training programs for XC at all levels. Now includes sending time on pump tracks, rhythm sections, and what not at a MTB skills park. The article I read said the coaches could see what was coming in the future of XC racing and started preparing for it.

    Though the other issue stems from a lost mentality of group rides. When was the last time a XC race club or team headed out on a ride with the sole purpose of...hey...let's spend some time on this drop or bi rock. Then help each other figure it out. I didn't just learn the skills I have I learned this very way on group rides. And have offered to do the same within our club.

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    Rode the course today. The A course is pretty dam demanding. I didnt ride all of it. But I did hit the gap at the end of the day(drove all that way , I didnt want to kill myself before getting a few laps in) In all honesty I was nervous, but it really wasnt hard. Lots of speed and a little lift was all it took.

    Course was very different then last years for us sport guys. Not nearly as much double track and the by product of that was very little time to recover. but all in all I though it was a great course.


    Except the start line and climb. Might as well have wood chips out because that gravel sucks to climb!

  169. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by machine4321 View Post
    Rode the course today. The A course is pretty dam demanding. I didnt ride all of it. But I did hit the gap at the end of the day(drove all that way , I didnt want to kill myself before getting a few laps in) In all honesty I was nervous, but it really wasnt hard. Lots of speed and a little lift was all it took.

    Course was very different then last years for us sport guys. Not nearly as much double track and the by product of that was very little time to recover. but all in all I though it was a great course.


    Except the start line and climb. Might as well have wood chips out because that gravel sucks to climb!
    Apparently it is a requirement for the Pan Am games that there be 800m of pavement off the start (not sure of the rationale, though).
    Strava made me do it....

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    oh, well they forgot the pave part. Its funny, it smelled like a freshly paved road....minus the fact it is loose.

    The climb is just frustrating as you can stand a mash because you just spin.

  171. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    Apparently it is a requirement for the Pan Am games that there be 800m of pavement off the start (not sure of the rationale, though).
    maybe because you have over 100 great mountain bikers starting at the same time in UCI events?

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    Finally made it to Hardwood yesterday to ride the courses (and in general).

    Rode a lap of the D course, then a lap of the A course. Overall the place looks like a top notch XC race venue.

    D course (expert) - I think its better and also harder than last year. That opening climb is going to hurt at race pace. Only feature I didn't try to ride was the rock gap berm. I know it's possible, probably easy, but needed to be convinced first by seeing someone else do it and unfortunately no one was around riding it when I was there.

    A course (elite) - Tough course. Fun to ride, but at race pace, well that's why I'm not elite.

    Hit the gap jump a few times. Fun stuff. It has no place as an option in a sport race in my opinion. I know there are many sport riders that can ride it no problems, but you need to consider the general level of a start. I think it should be an option in the expert races. I didn't do the ride around, so I can't comment on the time penalty.

    You have to be motoring as well to hit it. While you are carrying speed coming down coffee run, the run into the gap is uphill, so you have to be pedaling to keep your speed up. You can't see the jump coming into it as it's beyond a little crest. Once you go over the crest, you only have 10m or so to set yourself up, so spot the lip, spot your landing, get yourself ready after having to pedal up to that point. That certainly adds a little extra difficulty as you can't be preparing yourself for multiple seconds coming into it.
    Straight outta Rossland

  173. #173
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    After reading this thread and hearing countless reviews from friends I was really nervous to ride the course.

    I did manage to get four "A" laps in today. The course is top notch. The amount of reworking and effort put into the trailsystem is incredible. It really catapulted Hardwood from being a good venue to an All-star venue, definitely worthy of the Pan-Am's. (Except it still boggles my mind at how shitty the washrooms are at Hardwood)

    I'll be the first to say im a 'keep my wheels planted to the ground' type mtb'er. The first lap was a ton of riding up to the new features and being like a "No way in hell", "I dont want to die".. yada yada

    However after spending some time watching others take the new additions.. you realize its much more simple than it seems. The worst thing to do is over think those features. That big gap is actually a point and shoot. Hit it at speed and do literally nothing. The transition is well designed.

    The hardest part on the course in my experience was 'Disera's Drop' off blue chip. It's slow, off a turn and slick as hell when wet. I wiped out good there.

    Again, I'm the type of rider that prefers Albion to Hilton Falls... but I can really appreciate that elite course. Really separates the 'real' elites from the 'sorta' elites. Saturday will be exciting to watch the elite guys n girls go at race pace.
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  174. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post


    Hit the gap jump a few times. Fun stuff. It has no place as an option in a sport race in my opinion. I know there are many sport riders that can ride it no problems, but you need to consider the general level of a start. I think it should be an option in the expert races. I didn't do the ride around, so I can't comment on the time penalty.
    Is the gap jump going to be in the sport race? I've heard yes and no.

  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by stew325 View Post
    Is the gap jump going to be in the sport race? I've heard yes and no.
    No it's not...Not sure where you are still hearing that. It is not.
    A bad day on the bike is better than a good day doing anything else...

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  176. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by stew325 View Post
    Is the gap jump going to be in the sport race? I've heard yes and no.
    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmeister View Post
    No it's not...Not sure where you are still hearing that. It is not.
    Yes, just to confirm. The official course maps posted at Hardwood had the gap jump listed as a mandatory ride around for all but the elite courses. Second smaller gap into the two jumps and the wall ride (joyride section), still an option for sport/expert races.
    Straight outta Rossland

  177. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by superlightracer View Post

    The hardest part on the course in my experience was 'Disera's Drop' off blue chip. It's slow, off a turn and slick as hell when wet. I wiped out good there.
    That section is going to be carnage if it's wet. I had ideal conditions on my trail bike and would label my descent into and through it as controlled chaos.
    Straight outta Rossland

  178. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post
    That section is going to be carnage if it's wet. I had ideal conditions on my trail bike and would label my descent into and through it as controlled chaos.
    is that a pile of rocks on a tight left downward turn?
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  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    is that a pile of rocks on a tight left downward turn?
    Yep, looking east (?) from the feed zone.
    Straight outta Rossland

  180. #180
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    Thought that was A course?

    If its the one im thinking of. After joyride section, under start line, then climb pugsley I think? Then blue chip?

  181. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by machine4321 View Post
    Thought that was A course?

    If its the one im thinking of. After joyride section, under start line, then climb pugsley I think? Then blue chip?
    Yea it's A course, after pugsley.

    Glassford posted this on FB today..these helmet view vids never capture the tech factor.

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  182. #182
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    Well I found the course map.....looks like I missed 3km of the C course haha.

    At the top of the start climb there was no sign up to tell me to keep going on the single track. So I followed it to coffee run. I was riding with an elite and of course he is always ahead so it might have just been my fault. I guess I wont expect any big surprises in the top part of the course.

    I wondered why there was no time to recover lol.

  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by machine4321 View Post
    Well I found the course map.....looks like I missed 3km of the C course haha.

    At the top of the start climb there was no sign up to tell me to keep going on the single track. So I followed it to coffee run. I was riding with an elite and of course he is always ahead so it might have just been my fault. I guess I wont expect any big surprises in the top part of the course.

    I wondered why there was no time to recover lol.
    There is a drop in that section (with ride around). I was chatting with someone after I rode the D, then A course. He seemed concerned about it, but I couldn't remember anything specific about it, even though I rode it. So it wasn't memorable to me. At least 1/2 of that 3km you missed is part of the course from last year.
    Straight outta Rossland

  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSydor View Post
    There is a drop in that section (with ride around). I was chatting with someone after I rode the D, then A course. He seemed concerned about it, but I couldn't remember anything specific about it, even though I rode it. So it wasn't memorable to me. At least 1/2 of that 3km you missed is part of the course from last year.
    It's funny...I struggled with that drop more than anything else on the course during my initial pre-ride. I just couldn't land it smoothly and started over-thinking it. I think I have it figured out now, but the proof will be in the pudding on SUnday
    Strava made me do it....

  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    It's funny...I struggled with that drop more than anything else on the course during my initial pre-ride. I just couldn't land it smoothly and started over-thinking it. I think I have it figured out now, but the proof will be in the pudding on SUnday
    what drop?
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  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    what drop?
    Can't wait for the Substance Projects Kingston version of this in a month.

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    Anyone know what secrion it is in? Maybe I can find a video.

    The only drop I can think of back there is the off camber tree that heads into a downhill.

  188. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by machine4321 View Post
    Anyone know what secrion it is in? Maybe I can find a video.

    The only drop I can think of back there is the off camber tree that heads into a downhill.
    I think it is around the K-bomb area. The ride around is the more obvious path than the drop off a rock. Not a big deal, except for all the trees around you.
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  189. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by serious View Post
    I think it is around the K-bomb area. The ride around is the more obvious path than the drop off a rock. Not a big deal, except for all the trees around you.
    That's the one. It's about 2km in, off some double track. There is a ride around to the right and the drop off to the left. Shouldn't be a big deal but on my first preride lap I wasn't anticipating it and almost stuffed it, and it kind of rattled me for the next few laps. Sessioned it a few times and put in some time rolling off curbs etc out front of my house (much to the neighbours' amusement). Now it's fine
    Strava made me do it....

  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    That's the one. It's about 2km in, off some double track. There is a ride around to the right and the drop off to the left. Shouldn't be a big deal but on my first preride lap I wasn't anticipating it and almost stuffed it, and it kind of rattled me for the next few laps. Sessioned it a few times and put in some time rolling off curbs etc out front of my house (much to the neighbours' amusement). Now it's fine
    i will be using my 36" wheels and just roll it as well as the "endo rock".

    i will roll the gap too.
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  191. #191
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    I still javemt tried tthat stupid rock before the bridge. I CX jumped it last year. Need to buy some big boy pants.

  192. #192
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    That drop is the only thing on the expert course I chicken out on. And the damn handlebars on my 29er are too long to fit through the ride around! Might need to go find a similar drop somewhere around the neighborhood to ride or cut my handlebars.
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  193. #193
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    And after all that keruffle and debate, the course was awesome! The perfect mix of fast and flowy, and technical. Well done to Hardwood Hills and Pulse Racing!
    Strava made me do it....

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    Yupper. Grear course. That drop at K bomb was weird. Barry, I dont think it was just you having issues with it, as ir just didnt feel right to me. It was a drop to flat/slight up that killed all my momentum. I missed ot the first lap , hit it the 2nd and while doing the option on the 3rd lap another rider did it. It was a tad bit quicker but nothing crazy. He wasnt able to gain a pass by taking it.

    I was going to say hi at the race but you are like a phantom. One min you were there the next you were gone.

  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    And after all that keruffle and debate, the course was awesome! The perfect mix of fast and flowy, and technical. Well done to Hardwood Hills and Pulse Racing!
    Have to agree, the course was just right. I was also happy that it rained the night before. There was no dust, despite the rather large number of riders in the course.
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  196. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by machine4321 View Post
    Yupper. Grear course. That drop at K bomb was weird. Barry, I dont think it was just you having issues with it, as ir just didnt feel right to me. It was a drop to flat/slight up that killed all my momentum. I missed ot the first lap , hit it the 2nd and while doing the option on the 3rd lap another rider did it. It was a tad bit quicker but nothing crazy. He wasnt able to gain a pass by taking it.

    I was going to say hi at the race but you are like a phantom. One min you were there the next you were gone.
    Me? A phantom? First time I've ever heard that. I was actually there the entire day as I was doing feeds for my team-mates for the expert race. I ended up feeding none other than Mr. Osokolo. I only lost a couple of fingers when I didn't let go of his bottle fast enough....

    Please make sure you do say hi next time....always nice to put a face to the name. My next race is the summer epic 8 (throwing down with Serious in the solo singlespeed cat) but I will likely pre-ride midland and may even bring my Blizzard out for the Retro-race on the saturday before the ocup.
    Strava made me do it....

  197. #197
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    I dont know what you look like, I saw your name on your bike. you were talking with som other people so I turned to do somthing and poof, you were gone. We were probably only a few feet away as I sat in the feed zone for the expert race.

    Is there 2 Brits on LapDogs? if not I think we were talking in line for the sausage on a bun.

  198. #198
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    There are 2 Brits on lapdogs but I think that was me
    Strava made me do it....

  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unglued View Post
    There are 2 Brits on lapdogs but I think that was me
    And here all along I thought you were Scottish.
    Straight outta Rossland

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    There are 2 Brits in Ontario???

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