Over stepping boundries?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Over stepping boundries?

    I saw a woman riding at Albion hills on monday with her family not wearing a helmet. I was tempted to say something to her but decided not to her being an adult and all. Afterwards I thought I should have said something, Albion hills has a helmet rule and if she got hurt I would hate to see another law suit start up in ON. What do you guy think is it over stepping boundries to tell someone to put a helmet on or get off the trail or is it ok?

  2. #2
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    Bonking ... not feelin' well

    I was at Albion the other day and I saw several signs on and around the trails that stated that a helmet was required on the trails. I personally think that its not really you place to tell them to get off the trails, but I also think that reminding them that its required by the park that she wear a helmet would be a good thing.

    Who knows if it would do any good, but atleast they would know that they should have a helmet on when riding the trails.

  3. #3
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    call me stupid, but i hate helmets...sold my motorcycle when they brought in the helmet law in the 70's...only ride with one when doing someting like kolapore or 3-stage (not always though...wore a helmet last week because i was with fast group, left it at home a couple of weeks ago when it was a more controlled ride)

    having said this, i would recommend that you consider a person's motives for not following "the rules"...we're all grown-ups, and personally, i would have hated to be the last two people that told me that i should wear a helmet...they really ticked me off and they very quickly realized that they did.

    rule of thumb is "if it is none of your business, if it has no effect on your ride, if it has no bearing on anything that remotely affects you, stay out of it"...no one needs another mom...just results in a lot of bad karma

    if the trails are signed and she does not follow "the rules", a lawsuit is not an issue unless they knowingly let her out without a brainbucket...if she ignored the signs and snuck out, then its her problem...but in any case, not yours

    i ride because i like the sense of freedom, hate it when "mom" tries to spoil my fun. if i get hurt, then I get hurt
    Last edited by JM01; 05-24-2005 at 01:35 PM.

  4. #4
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    "Mom" won't have to spoil your fun

    A head injury will do that for her its only a matter of time. But like you said It's not my problem it's yours or at least it will be.

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    i don't understand...its her head (mine too)...i thought you were worried about a lawsuit?

    why predict a head injury for her?...is it that important that we all be punished if we don't follow "the rules"?

    i don't get it

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by JM01
    i don't get it
    no you don't, if YOU get hurt with a head injury WE ALL PAY FOR IT.

    I guess if you don't value what's between your ears then it's not worth protecting.


    Happy trails

    Clem

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by JM01
    call me stupid, ........................................

    if the trails are signed and she does not follow "the rules", a lawsuit is not an issue unless they knowingly let her out without a brainbucket...if she ignored the signs and snuck out, then its her problem...but in any case, not yours
    Okay. You're stupid. Just doing what you told me.

    As for "the rules" - do you think a Federal Court would care? I'm not a lawyer and I haven't been to a provincial park/conservation area to ride (yet), but unless you sign a waiver then the park/area, last I heard, IS responsible.

    Guess how that works out in the end when someone splatters their brains all over the pretty trees? Simple - it's doesn't any more after that. Get this - WE would ALL be punished - courts DON'T care what YOU think.

    I'm not going to play "mommy", or "daddy" for that matter, but if you're that much of a freak for anti-authority figures then that's fine in my books. I can relate. I never used to wear a helmet, either.

    Then one day.... (story time, go get your milk and cookies junior).... I got hit by a car. Yes, within the statistical 'mile from home'. Someone kinda missed that fact that a traffic light was red in his direction when he was driving and guess who was "in his way" when he went through at 60 kph? Yup, me. I got REALLY lucky. Had I been over one more foot I wouldn't be typing now - i'd be dead (BTW - I wasn't moving fast, maybe 5 kph). I flew up in the air about 15 feet and when I landed my head smacked the pavement with a "crack" i'll never forget (i'm getting goosebumps just remembering as I type). No damage, but again, REALLY lucky.

    I'm sure i'm wasting my time with you so i'll stop here.

    As for the original question - yes, JHB, you should have said something, BUT in a very polite way, only once. Even just a gesture by tapping you helmet. If a MOTHER (for God's sake, of all people - a parent that should be setting an example and has something to live for!) is THAT irresponsible then she should be told. Same goes for Father's... anyone. If it were me i'd have tapped my helmet. If they started being rude and ignorant then i'd simply rat them out. They wanna play - they're gonna loose against me.

    No, i'm not a helmet freak - I just like to see people that give a damn about themselves.... and other's.

    (/rant, whine and "mommy-ing")
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  8. #8
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    Very well said Andrew.

    Its not as easy as .".if i get hurt, then I get hurt"


    Put it this way, what have you got to lose in wearing a helmet.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTO
    Okay. You're stupid. Just doing what you told me.

    As for "the rules" - do you think a Federal Court would care? I'm not a lawyer and I haven't been to a provincial park/conservation area to ride (yet), but unless you sign a waiver then the park/area, last I heard, IS responsible.

    Guess how that works out in the end when someone splatters their brains all over the pretty trees? Simple - it's doesn't any more after that. Get this - WE would ALL be punished - courts DON'T care what YOU think.

    I'm not going to play "mommy", or "daddy" for that matter, but if you're that much of a freak for anti-authority figures then that's fine in my books. I can relate. I never used to wear a helmet, either.

    Then one day.... (story time, go get your milk and cookies junior).... I got hit by a car. Yes, within the statistical 'mile from home'. Someone kinda missed that fact that a traffic light was red in his direction when he was driving and guess who was "in his way" when he went through at 60 kph? Yup, me. I got REALLY lucky. Had I been over one more foot I wouldn't be typing now - i'd be dead (BTW - I wasn't moving fast, maybe 5 kph). I flew up in the air about 15 feet and when I landed my head smacked the pavement with a "crack" i'll never forget (i'm getting goosebumps just remembering as I type). No damage, but again, REALLY lucky.

    I'm sure i'm wasting my time with you so i'll stop here.

    As for the original question - yes, JHB, you should have said something, BUT in a very polite way, only once. Even just a gesture by tapping you helmet. If a MOTHER (for God's sake, of all people - a parent that should be setting an example and has something to live for!) is THAT irresponsible then she should be told. Same goes for Father's... anyone. If it were me i'd have tapped my helmet. If they started being rude and ignorant then i'd simply rat them out. They wanna play - they're gonna loose against me.

    No, i'm not a helmet freak - I just like to see people that give a damn about themselves.... and other's.

    (/rant, whine and "mommy-ing")

    my goodness

    just for your info, i too got hit by a car, dislocated both my left shoulder and elbow and my crew called me "flipper" for 4 months, good thing was that you get to go first on the downhill when you can only use one brake and 9 gears..it was a while before i could use my left arm again, but a helmet would not have helped

    secondly, i was right behind the guy that was killed last year at Annette & Dupont, direct drive bike with no brakes, went into a dumpster truck, going down the hill from dundas, you would think that the helmet HE WAS WEARING would have kept his brains off the road, but it didn't

    personnally, my only problem is with people who tell me i have a problem...if you think my not wearing head gear may cost you money, like someone mentioned, go after the smokers

    in your post, if i substitute your word father with fuhrer...it now makes sense...heil andrewTO!

    i have a quick 2 step remedy to your problem:

    1. bend over

    2. pull out stick

    cheers
    Last edited by JM01; 05-24-2005 at 04:50 PM.

  10. #10
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    Fuhrer? HAHAH! Oh great, now i'm the leader of the Helmet Nazi.

    Look, i'm not going to tell you what to do or how to do it when it doesn't affect me. If you don't want to wear a helmet on the street - fine, don't. That's entirely YOUR business. Law in Ontario gives you the right to do so. No arguements or complaints from me there.

    BUT, when it comes down to being on a trail that designates helmet useage - yeah, i'm gonna say something (or gesture with the helmet tap), because I like riding on trails. Your (or anyone else's) potential mishap could affect my enjoyment of riding in a place like that. I'm not about to let someone take that away from me without something as reasonable as a helmet tap.

    I'm not tryng to piss you off, put you down or shut you up. I'm just trying to make my point, which I think I have. If you understand it that's up to you.

    BTW - about the guy at Annette & Dupont - if he had brakes i'd bet he'd still be alive. My condolences if he was a friend.

    Peace, eh. Now if you'll excuse me, i'm going to play with this stick I just found.
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  11. #11
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    the ole helmet debate(might be long winded)

    For the longest time I could not figure out why people wear helmets.
    My first bike in Canada was a 'Consumers Distributing' BMX, the blue one with yellow plastic 'five star rims' and back pedal brakes(what a bike!) Some of the same trails still exist and I swear I could ride down them faster then, I remember jumping some scary ass jumps, we'd pile 8 garbage bags up throw a plank a wood down and send the fat kid first(sorry I cant remember his name-he deserves a lot of credit) anyways, after F.K hit the jump and nose straight up in the air, we would take two bags out then we would hit the jumps no problem...thanks F.K! I then had a road bike (wish I still had it) I remember hammering from Dundas(@ Erin Mills Pkwy) to Bronte Prov. Park jump in the pool then head back, had a few close calls and learned the hard way not to pedal while cornering and I had not even hit the age of 12 yet after many road rashes and learning how to fall I was given my first mountain bike...(not sure what the point was here,except to thank F.K)
    Anyways, I have nevr figured out why I need a helmet...yeah I ve got a few scars on the ole noggin but nothing serious...but I bought a helmet as a requirement to enter Hilton Falls 2 years ago...and it just became second nature to wear it..have not had a real crash or hit my head(helmet) and I commute to work and love roots and rocks..stil havent really seem a need for a helmet...but it was someone on this forum who mentioned about trail closures due to accidents and strains on the healthcare system, and now that IM in my "Damn kids/Carlsberg "years Ive come to realize, yeah I may never need the helmet, but if I do have a major crash, Ill probably be better off wearing one
    Sorry for the trip down memory lane...
    As for the question of saying something to someone not wearing a helmet...I think I would just shake my head at them especially parents(great example)

    But then again...donnt say anything and let natuarl selection take its course

  12. #12
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    thank you, thank you, thank you...now this makes sense

    because there are so few of us, health care costs are not really an issue...i'm 55, ride 450+km/week, both commuting in the city and road/off road in cow country, and love the feeling of the wind in my hair (some left) and the sound of the world around me that i lose in a helmet

    my only point is that i will fight for the few freedoms we have left, being a product of the 60's (yes, hippies, AndrewTO) i really get ticked by people forcing their world on me...they may be right, but its their world, not mine.

    no helmet for me unless I decide to wear it...and you will be reminded that i have this right should you tap a helmet when i pass

  13. #13

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    Oh why did I click that damn button? Anyway, not that anyone cares, I think helmets are like seat belts: 40% of the time they are a good thing, 10% of the time they get in the way or cause more damage and the other 50% they don't do a damn thing. In cars seat belts are a good thing because most of the living population drives and lots of otherwise preventable injuries would cost me needless money for health care. Not enough people ride bikes aggressively for this to hold true for helmets, getting hit by a car will almost never be assisted by a helmet so commuters don't count.

    I feel naked without my helmet and I feel everyone should wear them, but you all have a choice and laws don't help anything but making the goverment richer and pissing off "hippies" .
    I bounced off a steel plate from 5' in the air and only luck or the grace of God saved my life, skull/neck. I didn't have a helmet and to this day I am still suffering, partial spontainous memory loss lasted nearly 2 years and neck aches and migraines persist.

    Kids are mandated to wear helmets and this is IMO a good thing, parents like the opening post should lead by example. But it's their head and their life it's not our choice to make for them and telling people what you think they should do is not usually constructive. On property where the price of admission is a helemt I might have commented but you can't tell them to leave that is up to the managemnt to decide.

    Although my paramedic friend isn't so civil in his opinions...

  14. #14
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    Heres my story.

    I was 12 yrs old. Riding on my huffy mtb. Took a bad turn into a parking lot. Front tire washed out and my then helmet less head went straight to the ground. Well, I blacked out, chipped 4 teeth and fractured my jaw. Now that was at 12 km/h. Imagine at the speeds an adult rides.

    If a helmet saves your head 75% of the time then whats to argue? Why would you even argue the whole mandatory helmet issue. Its your well being that the law is looking after. I could put all the money in the world that if a vocal non helmet advocate crashed and injured his/her head to the point that they suffered brain damage, they'd be eating their words.

    Feeling the freedom of not having a helmet just isn't worth it. Think about it, risk reward. Simple analogy.
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  15. #15
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    I have a similair story...
    Back in the day (guy at work always says that!) I was booting on my bmx bike and turned into this schools parking lot as the side is made into a lil halfpipe sorta thing. Well maybe not so like one but sorta. Anyways not even 30 mins earlier I rode up and when I came back and went to try it the chain was up. By time I saw it it was too late and I rode into it. After I got up I noticed I landed on the sewer grate that was like 7 feet away from the chain. Thats where my head landed anyways with feet pointing away

    That left a nice mark on my chest (the chain went over the bars and hit me like that) I still never wore a helmet after that and only reason I wear one now is cause of racing. If I havent ever wanted to race I prob still wouldnt be wearing one! If anything I need body armor over a helmet

    Thats the only time I remember hitting my head. Oh and hitting it off a low branch but I did have my helmet on at the time! But I know I wouldve missed it if I didnt have it on cause the way I just grazed it. No helmet I wouldve cleared it np!

  16. #16
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    amen...

    on the top of the wind in your hair you may as well take the shirt off and feel some wind in your chest hair, and maybe even take your shorts off and feel some wind in your pubic hair...

    what an utterly stupid freedom to fight for - not wearing a helmet...

    and particularly at 55... too much bad weed during 60's and 70's...

    i hope you dont let your children, if you have any, ride without helmets as well... if this world loses you, it wouldnt be as big of a deal as if it was someone younger...



    Quote Originally Posted by JM01
    thank you, thank you, thank you...now this makes sense

    because there are so few of us, health care costs are not really an issue...i'm 55, ride 450+km/week, both commuting in the city and road/off road in cow country, and love the feeling of the wind in my hair (some left) and the sound of the world around me that i lose in a helmet

    my only point is that i will fight for the few freedoms we have left, being a product of the 60's (yes, hippies, AndrewTO) i really get ticked by people forcing their world on me...they may be right, but its their world, not mine.

    no helmet for me unless I decide to wear it...and you will be reminded that i have this right should you tap a helmet when i pass

  17. #17
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    ok, you are stupid...

    particularly considering your age...

    Quote Originally Posted by JM01
    call me stupid, but i hate helmets...sold my motorcycle when they brought in the helmet law in the 70's...only ride with one when doing someting like kolapore or 3-stage (not always though...wore a helmet last week because i was with fast group, left it at home a couple of weeks ago when it was a more controlled ride)

    having said this, i would recommend that you consider a person's motives for not following "the rules"...we're all grown-ups, and personally, i would have hated to be the last two people that told me that i should wear a helmet...they really ticked me off and they very quickly realized that they did.

    rule of thumb is "if it is none of your business, if it has no effect on your ride, if it has no bearing on anything that remotely affects you, stay out of it"...no one needs another mom...just results in a lot of bad karma

    if the trails are signed and she does not follow "the rules", a lawsuit is not an issue unless they knowingly let her out without a brainbucket...if she ignored the signs and snuck out, then its her problem...but in any case, not yours

    i ride because i like the sense of freedom, hate it when "mom" tries to spoil my fun. if i get hurt, then I get hurt

  18. #18
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    I wear a helmet not because of what I do, but because of what others around me do while I am biking...

    Done.

  19. #19
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    For frick sakes it is our business....Do you not get it?? Everytime someone injuries themselves because of their own ineptitude it cost us all...Look at all the law suits...Not to mention that when you fall and smash your mellon it is our tax dollars that cost to fix you up...I hate this I can do what I want attitude...If that was the case we could all just go around doing whatever the hell we want all the time...Wearing a helmet is just one of those things that makes sense...

    I just wish people would wake up and realize that their actions always affect other people and not just themselves!!!!

    Rich
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  20. #20
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    no helmet

    NO HELMET!

    That was very foolish of her.
    Was she on the double track there or single? If she was on the double track, maybe she thought it was safer for the kids? What ever the mind set behind it, she should have placed a helmet on the child's head.
    And you know what really bugs the hell out of me; when an injury happens to these type of people, a vast majority of these characters end up crying for money and cause our trails to close down!!

    Lets all be responsible out there and take account for our own actions!

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  21. #21
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    My goodness, she wasn't wearing a helmet. Where was kitty when we need her to berate the woman who wasn't wearing helmet? sheessh!!!


    I hope she wasn't a lawyer. We can't have another lawsuit from another stupid rider.
    Yeah, guys, everyone has responsibility to remind idiots who don't wear helmets on single track trails.

  22. #22
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    It's no so much if you will sue or not when you crack your head with no helmet, it's often if your family and friends now have to take care of you, as you eat dinner through a straw and poop your pants. Head injuries impact more than one person, How many people count on you to have all of your faculties?

    PS I'm on my fourth bike helmet as the first three broke in crashes into immovable objects while mountain biking on trails

    PPS I'm all for freedom and doing you own thing, but I'm against things that infringe on others peoples ability to do their own thing like dad, husband, brother, uncle, friend turning himself into a vegtable.
    it tied the room together man!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JM01
    call me stupid, but i hate helmets...
    ... if i get hurt, then I get hurt
    Ok... Your stupid.

    As canadian-clydesdale said, it's not just whether you would file a lawsuit, but what would your caregivers do when left with a drooling vegetable? Then there is the cost to taxpayers for healthcare, the cost to the sport's image (newspapers, media, etc), the conservation authority/facility may "freak" regardless of lawsuit and close that trail (or all of them), the list goes on...

    shakes head...


    JHB... I would and have been tempted to do just what you were contemplating. I even tried to set a few people straight in the past; here is what I learned: people's stupidity is only exceeded by their stubbornness.
    If they were so retarded as to ride without a helmet in spite of signage that says helmets are required, nothing you say will be able to convince them otherwise.
    I say leave it alone and pray for the best. If you absolutely must do something, inform the park rangers to keep an eye out for her and maybe they will kick her out of the facility.
    Last edited by SSteel; 05-25-2005 at 10:27 AM.
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    I think that on the trails a helmet is a must. I was once lucky to get up from a bad crash, a log placed a nice sized dent in my helmet however. In the case of the lady, I think that it sets a bad example, especially if signage is posted.

    If I am doing a road ride however, I may only wear my helmet 25-40% of the time. If I get hit by a car, it's going to be more than my head that takes a beating. I look at my stats, and I have yet to come off my bike nor have I come close to being hit by a car; I ride roads north of Toronto

    On the trails it's a different story, I come off my bike a lot, so a helmet makes sense.

    Part of my problem is finding a helmet that doesnt cause me to sweat like a beast. Hence why I avoid wearing it on the road.

  25. #25
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    same here...

    Quote Originally Posted by capun_canuck
    I think that on the trails a helmet is a must. I was once lucky to get up from a bad crash, a log placed a nice sized dent in my helmet however. In the case of the lady, I think that it sets a bad example, especially if signage is posted.

    If I am doing a road ride however, I may only wear my helmet 25-40% of the time. If I get hit by a car, it's going to be more than my head that takes a beating. I look at my stats, and I have yet to come off my bike nor have I come close to being hit by a car; I ride roads north of Toronto

    On the trails it's a different story, I come off my bike a lot, so a helmet makes sense.

    Part of my problem is finding a helmet that doesnt cause me to sweat like a beast. Hence why I avoid wearing it on the road.
    i dont wear the helmet on the road, maybe 1 out of 10 times... i dont think it is a good idea, more over , it is stupid.

    but i sweat like a pig and helmet only worsens that problem... ( i do own gyro pneumo that is well ventilated but it makes no difference)..

    on the trail - it is a different story. i wear it first and foremost because i want to protect myself, but also to minimize the risk of compromising the trail due to potential injury...

  26. #26
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    I'm glad

    It seems that the overwelming majority of people here are NOT stupid and see the importance helmets. As for the outher few maybee its evolutions way of cleaning up the MTB geen pool. If you ride without a helmet its only a matter of time before you end up being injured and not on the trail at all.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by capun_canuck
    I look at my stats, and I have yet to come off my bike nor have I come close to being hit by a car; I ride roads north of Toronto
    This statement doesn't really hold too much water when trying to explain why you don't wear a helmet on the road. The problem is that you only need to fall off your bike/get hit by a car once to hurt yourself.

    Personally I've decided that I'm going to wear my helmet anytime I ride my bike farther then the end of my street. I never know what I'm going to find on my ride and I'd rather have a helmet if I happen to fall.

    If you don't want to wear a helmet thats fine, I'm not going to say you should as long as your not on on a trail system that states that its required.

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    THAT'S IT!!!...someone got it right

    My hair is long, i sweat in them, i can't hear in them, and generally feel confined riding in a helmet. Riding is no fun in one, and after my army days, i can't stand the things. If helmets are legislated, i have sworn to sell the bikes just as i did the motorbikes.

    It makes sense that if riding trails that stipulate helmets, you have no choice but to comply. It would not be fair to the operators and other riders should something happen, but i draw the line at stopping people and telling them to get off the trails...sort of like yelling at people in the grocery express line because they have 9 items. They can read, the operator is covered unless he let them out without headgear...ultimatley, its their choice. This is why i don't ride these trails.

    On a sadder note, at 12:15 PM today i was behind a guy on a skateboard as he went head first through the windsheild of a car on Spadina, just south of College. No helmet, made a horrible mess. Didn't look too good, i hope that he's OK.

    lastly, should that have been me..well, i retired at 45, the kid can live with a smaller inheritance, let me drool and be fed through a straw...its a price i accept for the pleasure of my ride, and has the full support of the family...sort of like skydivers, extreme skiers, rock climbers, high-wire acts, race car drivers...well, you get the idea, you can't live life in a protective cacoon. some of us just need that extra dimension...you take care to ensure that you have the ability and equipment, then giv'er

    cheers

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by JM01
    THAT'S IT!!!...someone got it right

    My hair is long, i sweat in them, i can't hear in them, and generally feel confined riding in a helmet. Riding is no fun in one, and after my army days, i can't stand the things. If helmets are legislated, i have sworn to sell the bikes just as i did the motorbikes.
    Get some hairgel and style it into spikes! then if you ever fall on... er nm you dont want to fall and "stab" someone then and get charged for murder. So style it into lil curls! Yeeeaa! That way they will absorb the impact if you were to ever fall on it. Dunno about car winshields though, that might push it past it limits

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by JM01

    On a sadder note, at 12:15 PM today i was behind a guy on a skateboard as he went head first through the windsheild of a car on Spadina, just south of College. No helmet, made a horrible mess. Didn't look too good, i hope that he's OK.
    JM01 if you are ever behind me let me know and I'll let you through. People in front of you on the road appear to have bad luck.

  31. #31
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    i get it

    i'm fortunate to be able to schedule work around my riding, do no less than 45km/day year round in TO in a box bordered by kipling-eglinton-jarvis-the lake. After years of doing this, i am still amazed by the amount of carnage on the roads, although rare to witness an accident, it is a daily occurance to come up on one...usually minor fender benders, but some are gruesome, especialy the motorbikes

    the only time that the crew insisted that they stay behind me was 4 weeks ago in Kolapore when my front brake pad fell out (effen hayes)....must have felt insecure being in front of a madman with only one brake and no helmet flying down The Gultch on the trail back from Red Death Lookout.

    At least i got to lead
    Last edited by JM01; 06-08-2005 at 11:05 AM.

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