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  1. #1
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    No MUP's please, we're _____________

    Anyone heard about the chorley park MUP? It's supposed to be a rebuilt trail from street level down into the brickworks. I knew nothing about it, until signs in the neighbourhood starting popping up urging folks to band together and kill the beast. I'm used to seeing such signs in Rosedale, as residents tend to be well-informed and mostly well-intentioned. For example. they were all over that plan to dig up half of Dufferin county and mine the limestone or whatever it was. But backlash against a MUP? Harder to figure that one out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kay. View Post
    Anyone heard about the chorley park MUP? It's supposed to be a rebuilt trail from street level down into the brickworks. I knew nothing about it, until signs in the neighbourhood starting popping up urging folks to band together and kill the beast. I'm used to seeing such signs in Rosedale, as residents tend to be well-informed and mostly well-intentioned. For example. they were all over that plan to dig up half of Dufferin county and mine the limestone or whatever it was. But backlash against a MUP? Harder to figure that one out.
    Never underestimate the level of stupidity that neighbour's in a community can achieve when it comes to NIMBYism. And never underestimate how much that can turn neighbour against neighbour.

    People don't want anything new in their community unless it increases the value of their homes.

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    the area where the mup is going in is badly needed. the old road is a mud pit and it will help keep people on the path allowing better forestry restoration of the side slopes. that whole area was also dug up for some sewer work not to long ago at the top. i guess people are upset that they won't be able to use the area as a public washroom for their dogs anymore... ah yes the anti quarry, now that was a misguided effort on a large scale... end result a corporate mono-culture gmo agriculture with heavy fertilizer/pesticide/herbicide use and no jobs... great job, a real win.
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    whats a MUP ??????
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    There was a similar reaction to a proposed multi-use path (MUP) in Ancaster (Meadowlands). The neighbours immediately adjoining the Conservation Area were panicked that their privacy was going to be invaded. Basically, they wanted to have the Conservation Area as their own backyard, which no one else got to enjoy. Shocking selfishness.

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    Before we sit *too* high on this horse, it's worth recalling that a number of new MUPs planned in Toronto may involve removing very popular singletrack trails. And several more MUPs built it Toronto have resulted in *reduced* cycling route options, as previous informal access points to the greenspace were barricaded and fenced at the time of MUP construction. I can think of lots of things I don't want widened and/or paved, so the idea of opposition to a MUP is not completely in left field, IMO.

    But yes, people who live next to parks think they own them. In the work I've done for the TRCA, probably 10-20% of homeowners extend their backyards into into TRCA property when no one is looking, sometimes including fencing. More still use parkland to dump downslope anything the garbage truck won't take.

    So yeah, it kind of gives "NIMBY" a new connotation when they extend their actual backyard 50 feet into the public realm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdgirl View Post
    There was a similar reaction to a proposed multi-use path (MUP) in Ancaster (Meadowlands). The neighbours immediately adjoining the Conservation Area were panicked that their privacy was going to be invaded. Basically, they wanted to have the Conservation Area as their own backyard, which no one else got to enjoy. Shocking selfishness.
    Tell you what....have Unglued draw up a contract and a pre payment plan. I will gladly come down over a weekend and show that if I want to invade this "privacy" they are so worried about. One doesn't need a MUP to do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    whats a MUP ??????
    Major Urinary Proteins, silly!

    Major urinary proteins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Last edited by Thatshowiroll; 05-29-2014 at 11:01 AM. Reason: I'm French!

  9. #9
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    We need all the paths we can get built. It's not just from a cycling perspective. If you build paths people will get out and use them. In Mississauga they put in a MUP along the Queensway that is close to 10 km. It does not run along parks but there is some grass and trees along the way. When they were building it, I thought it was a huge waste of money and that no one would want to stroll there. Well I was proven wrong. When I drive or cycle by it or on it, there are always people on there. Anything that promotes getting out and exercise is a good thing considering how sedentary people are. You have to make sure you address environmental concerns, but never mind if the neighbours don't like it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailtrash View Post
    whats a MUP ??????
    Thanks trailtrash..I had no idea what a MUP was either!
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    the area where the mup is going in is badly needed. the old road is a mud pit and it will help keep people on the path allowing better forestry restoration of the side slopes. that whole area was also dug up for some sewer work not to long ago at the top. i guess people are upset that they won't be able to use the area as a public washroom for their dogs anymore... ah yes the anti quarry, now that was a misguided effort on a large scale... end result a corporate mono-culture gmo agriculture with heavy fertilizer/pesticide/herbicide use and no jobs... great job, a real win.
    You must not live in Dufferin because only someone who would not be effected would say something completely ridiculous as that. It is not a mono culture. there are potatoes, corn, soybeans, canola, wheat, oats, ect ect all growing where the quarry would of been. Even though at this time it can't be proven, it could of effected the water table from Shelbourne to Orangeville to Bolton and beyond. The jobs you mention would of mostly come from the 80 gravel trucks a hour travelling through Allison and\or down #10 through Orangeville and Caledon. But your right in one aspect..It was a real win!!
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    oh bs the land is mainly used to grow potatoes with massive irrigation (affecting the water table), but i'll give you the gmo crop rotation for industrial farming animal feed . most of the protesters came from Toronto and don't give a rats ass about providing jobs or the economic well being of the area. the truck traffic is the same argument that is being used in Bolton right now against the Canadian Tire distribution center (while the majority of residents want the center). 80 trucks an hour is a drop in the bucket considering all the truck traffic that was lost from manufacturing through the areas transportation corridor, plus the loss of the rail line they would have built... and lets not mention the loss of all the spin off support jobs of such an operation. but what really burns my breeches is the loss of all the sweet singletrack that could have been built on the environmentally restored/reclaimed sections of the quarry... hope you have a mask now as you cycle by these lands when they are doing their herbicide/pesticide sprayings....

    http://www.inthehills.ca/wp-content/...yMAPS_SITE.pdf



    Quote Originally Posted by Dgage View Post
    You must not live in Dufferin because only someone who would not be effected would say something completely ridiculous as that. It is not a mono culture. there are potatoes, corn, soybeans, canola, wheat, oats, ect ect all growing where the quarry would of been. Even though at this time it can't be proven, it could of effected the water table from Shelbourne to Orangeville to Bolton and beyond. The jobs you mention would of mostly come from the 80 gravel trucks a hour travelling through Allison and\or down #10 through Orangeville and Caledon. But your right in one aspect..It was a real win!!
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    but what really burns my breeches is the loss of all the sweet singletrack that could have been built on the environmentally restored/reclaimed sections of the quarry
    Like the sweet singletrack you get to ride in the reclaimed portions of the Dufferin quarry in Milton?

    Dump trucks 'a drop in the bucket'?

    You must not live near a quarry or a trucking route, since you come across as grossly uninformed. Any time you like, come on over to my place at 5am on a weekday morning when those trucks start. Or I'll save you the trouble. I'll come over to your house and sit outside banging an empty 45 gallon drum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbs View Post
    Like the sweet singletrack you get to ride in the reclaimed portions of the Dufferin quarry in Milton?

    Dump trucks 'a drop in the bucket'?

    You must not live near a quarry or a trucking route, since you come across as grossly uninformed. Any time you like, come on over to my place at 5am on a weekday morning when those trucks start. Or I'll save you the trouble. I'll come over to your house and sit outside banging an empty 45 gallon drum.
    actually I live in a trucking hub, railway corridor, industrial area...

    here's the old thread on the quarry...

    http://forums.mtbr.com/eastern-canad...ea-744904.html
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    I saw one of these signs on a Rosedale lawn for the 1st time a few days ago and thought: "Damn right!".

    There are 3 different trail options to get down the hill there, and a set of old steps. Why is pavement 'needed?'. Is it so tough to get down to the Brick Works right now? Are they planning on paving the Belt Line as well? Because that is the only other path system this switchback will interface with.

    I remember leading a group ride on the old gravel bed of the CN spur by Leslie (Eg to York Mills) in 2009 or 10 and said "enjoy the gravel while it lasts, guys" and within a year or two it was paved.

    Anyway I am prepared to feel some heat on there for siding with the old money but I have spent some time in that park walking, riding and just hanging out, and it is a really cool space with an atmosphere that I feel will most certainly be compromised when the grading equipment rolls through. If somebody can explain to me why it is so important that this project happens right here (when improvements are also being made up the Belt Line at Heath and the Milkman's lane exit was just regraded within the past couple of years), I might change my mind. But for now it seems like it just falls under the city mantra of "pave every green space" which I whole heartedly do NOT support.

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    Quote Originally Posted by veteran_youth View Post
    I saw one of these signs on a Rosedale lawn for the 1st time a few days ago and thought: "Damn right!".

    There are 3 different trail options to get down the hill there, and a set of old steps. Why is pavement 'needed?'. Is it so tough to get down to the Brick Works right now? Are they planning on paving the Belt Line as well? Because that is the only other path system this switchback will interface with.

    I remember leading a group ride on the old gravel bed of the CN spur by Leslie (Eg to York Mills) in 2009 or 10 and said "enjoy the gravel while it lasts, guys" and within a year or two it was paved.

    Anyway I am prepared to feel some heat on there for siding with the old money but I have spent some time in that park walking, riding and just hanging out, and it is a really cool space with an atmosphere that I feel will most certainly be compromised when the grading equipment rolls through. If somebody can explain to me why it is so important that this project happens right here (when improvements are also being made up the Belt Line at Heath and the Milkman's lane exit was just regraded within the past couple of years), I might change my mind. But for now it seems like it just falls under the city mantra of "pave every green space" which I whole heartedly do NOT support.
    Paving a path has to be the stupidest idea in history. Just a observation.....he second you make a path out of pavement speeds go up. Which in turn leads to the whole bikes, skateboards, rollerblades, and so on going to fast. Leave them unpaved.

    And just an observation. What is the point of paving half of these paths? Half of them are on the low ground and very year need repair after the Spring floods and such.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    actually I live in a trucking hub, railway corridor, industrial area...
    And it doesn't bother you? Backup alarms 24 hours/day, rattling banging trucks, speeding (especially dump truck drivers). I loved the one who didn't stop for the school bus and just threw his arms up as if to say 'What could I do?' (Well, 'stop' was the first thing that came to mind)

    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket View Post
    here's the old thread on the quarry...

    http://forums.mtbr.com/eastern-canad...ea-744904.html
    Quickly checked that out and didn;t see any mention of the difference between a quarry like Elora and what they do now.

    Elora and other old quarries only went down to the water table, or a little below.

    Now they dig waaay down and then install pumps that will pump the water back up to the water table. Then they create a fund to keep these pump running 'forever' or until the first corrupt or imcompetent accountant gets to manage it.

    Then what? The quarry fills with water and all the wetlands, lakes and wells dry up. Ask people near Trafalger/401 how their wells are after a massive dewatering operation while putting in water mains.

    Really, if your idea is that quarries lead to good riding, it's a simplistic view.

    http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/publica...2_Outcomes.pdf

  18. #18
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    Paved paths are not really stupid. Depends on the location and intended use. Paving and existing path however would need a lot more consideration. A paved path does bring in roller bladers and other people and that is a good thing. An unpaved path even limestone, can be horrible for a couple of days after rain depending on the grades around it. The Culham Trail has such spots. You need to wash your bike completely for 30 ft of trail. I am not suggesting that you pave it though. A dirt path, specially in clay would get rutted, trampled washed up with any kind of traffic and would exclude a number of people. I am not advocating paving everything, but there should be access to parks for everyone including those on wheelchairs, walkers, strollers, kids bikes etc.
    That there is bad behaviour on the trails, is not a proper argument against paving a trail. The solution is curbing this behaviour through education and enforcement. I know we all like a bit more dirt everywhere but opposition to a well planned paved MUP sounds like Nimby in reverse. Stay out of my wooded dirt area!
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    Quote Originally Posted by secret agent View Post
    I know we all like a bit more dirt everywhere but opposition to a well planned paved MUP sounds like Nimby in reverse. Stay out of my wooded dirt area!
    I am not afraid to say that is exactly what it is!

    Chorley Park is itself a bit of a weird example, those not familiar with the area or history might not have much perspective on it. But basically the park at the top of the hill is the site of an old super-mansion (I think it was Lieutenant Governor's house or something) that was eventually sold by .gov for pennies on the dollar and bought back similarly then demolished. Some foundation remains as the entrance to a forested staircase and trail down to the Belt Line and Brick Works. Adjacent to (north of) this forested area is a grassy, wide open slope with a couple of steep fall line beaten tracks on it running directly to the (unpaved) Belt Line.



    So, while it seems that most disinterested parties (on this board at least) would ask "why not pave?", personally, as somebody who lives within a couple km from there and rides the area often, I would ask "why pave?" The paved link would serve mostly residents of Rosedale with easier access to the Brick Works, and if they don't want it, why bother? I would rather see that money put toward proper bike lanes on Bayview; that would make the BW a lot more accessible than a paved hillside path to a hidden corner of Rosedale.

    Edit again:

    TL;DR for clarity: I would not consider this to be a part of crucial cycling infrastructure (doesn't really connect any routes that need connecting) and therefore feel the project is frivolous at best.

    If residents were highly in favour of this and dissent came from outside the community, you could very well see a headline reading "Wealthy Rosedalers Demand Removal of 130 Trees For Brick Works Link".

  20. #20
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    I have no problem, with that and trains. I've seen a ten fold of cars running school bus lights... Actually one did so today in front of me, as well as running red lights... what's your point? I believe the plan called for restoring over 50% of the land back to agriculture, the rest would be naturalized (something like 360 hectors if memory serves me). I think the plan called for 70% of the ground water to be returned to the aquifer during the quarry operation. I wonder how much water is removed from the aquifer now for industrial agriculture?
    I wonder how the claims that explosives will contaminate the ground water staked up against the thousands of tons of fertilizer they inject into the ground now?
    I wonder why no one complains about the 1000's of hectors of land being lost to urban sprawl now (where the majority of protestors live)or the impact on the watersheds?
    I wonder how all the aggregate gets to the GTA now and where it comes from?

    That being said we will see the quarry again, at least now we will be able to power all the pumps by the windmills in the area.


    Quote Originally Posted by rbs View Post
    And it doesn't bother you? Backup alarms 24 hours/day, rattling banging trucks, speeding (especially dump truck drivers). I loved the one who didn't stop for the school bus and just threw his arms up as if to say 'What could I do?' (Well, 'stop' was the first thing that came to mind)


    Quickly checked that out and didn;t see any mention of the difference between a quarry like Elora and what they do now.

    Elora and other old quarries only went down to the water table, or a little below.

    Now they dig waaay down and then install pumps that will pump the water back up to the water table. Then they create a fund to keep these pump running 'forever' or until the first corrupt or imcompetent accountant gets to manage it.

    Then what? The quarry fills with water and all the wetlands, lakes and wells dry up. Ask people near Trafalger/401 how their wells are after a massive dewatering operation while putting in water mains.

    Really, if your idea is that quarries lead to good riding, it's a simplistic view.

    http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/publica...2_Outcomes.pdf
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  21. #21
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    What's the quarry have to do with MUPS again? I don't advocate for MUP's everywhere and it may certainly be a bad place to put one. Everything about the DON is always contentious due to the huge density of users and uses. There are tons of wellness studies for both physical and mental health that promote paved paths. Basically, the studies have shown that if you build them people will use them. That is all.
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  22. #22
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    Jeebus, check that place out! Probably would have fetched a decent price in today's market as a fixer upper if they hadn't demolished it.

    Quote Originally Posted by veteran_youth View Post
    the park at the top of the hill is the site of an old super-mansion (I think it was Lieutenant Governor's house or something) that was eventually sold by .gov for pennies on the dollar and bought back similarly then demolished.


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    Quote Originally Posted by secret agent View Post
    There are tons of wellness studies for both physical and mental health that promote paved paths.
    Please share your link for this little bit of info. From what I have seen when it comes to mental health there is little to zero discussion on paved paths when it comes to Depression for a example. The focus is more on general physical activity to help deal with this.

  24. #24
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    So am I straight on this? You wanted a mega quarry built (but not close to where you live) just so there was a slim possibility that some single track might be built in what? 50 years? 75 years? 100 years? Whatever!
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    My wife works in the mental health field and is involved with various international organizations. The focus is on aging and dementia. Lots of involvement with Europe and China. The correlations of exercise and mental health in this area is really strong. I will ask to see if there is specific studies. Recommendations are always in there for walking paths and for more green spaces. Not sure if there is anything specific to depression. When she was at Camh, a good fitness routine was highly recommended for dealing with addictions. I think there lots of info on this.
    Burnt Norton

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